The Hole in the Cheese

[Radagast]

Training camp is almost here. Much has been written this off season on every aspect of the Packers upcoming 2018 season. We are quick to heap praise upon those portions of GB's NFL team that are safe to post about. Some do have the courage to point a finger at areas of the team that may be bringing up the rear, so to speak.

On the offensive side of the ball, I'm most nervous about the Right Guard and Right Tackle positions. Next, I'm concerned with the WR2 and WR3 positions.

On the defensive side of the ball, I'm most nervous about to CBs. I'm fairly confident about the Safeties and their area of responsibility.

Special teams will develop as it does each season, but a fearsome return team would be an added asset to what should be a very good 2018 Packer team.


:soap:

[Teamcheez1]

My biggest concern is OLB. I don't believe Matthews or Perry can stay standing for a whole season, and I see very little behind them.

[Tony Oday]

No concerns here at all. 12-4 with a ring at the end.

[Radagast]

No concerns here at all. 12-4 with a ring at the end.

Yes, that is certainly the wish/goal every season. However no team has ever been 100% perfect. Linemen may not be a match for some of the opposing players they will face. More experienced opposing WRs may outplay less experienced CBs. While big and beefy, OLBs may have lost the speed needed to rack up impressive sack totals. A TE may be a great pass receiver, but can't block worth a damn. The team/QB may not have a true downfield speed threat.

Such problems exist on every team. This thread was not created so that the rose colored eyeglass crowd could paint pretty pictures. Training Camp will reveal and quickly any team weaknesses. This thread is for trying to predict just where GB needs to improve.

[Tony Oday]

QB: Best to play the Game
RB: Jones, Williams and company provide a ton of talent
Line: Solid with newly acquired Vet backup
DLine: Neal and Wilkerson
ILB: Just has to be stout
OLB: You will see surprises behind our two starters
DB: Infusion of young talent and old guys that can stop gap it this year

I guess maybe long snapper I would be worried about.

[gbgary]

CB's, Biegel, WR opposite Adams, right side of OL. that's what i'll be watching.

[mraynrand]

I'll be watching Rodgers for signs of fear and decline. But he won't play much, so we'll have to wait for the regular season for that. Preseason is back-up QB time. I'd like to see more than a Kizer Sö so.

[Radagast]

On Monday (7/23). I posted, "On the offensive side of the ball, I'm most nervous about the Right Guard and Right Tackle positions."

Now I read that Bulaga is on the PUP list and (R) Cole Madison is dealing with personal matters and has not reported for TC. I understand Bulaga and his ACL injury, but players (especially Rookies) need all of the TC that they can get. Death and illness occur in all families, but is seldom enough of an excuse for not reporting to work. Cole Madison needs to put on his big boy pants and be a man moving forward.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

QB: Best to play the Game
RB: Jones, Williams and company provide a ton of talent
Line: Solid with newly acquired Vet backup
DLine: Neal and Wilkerson
ILB: Just has to be stout
OLB: You will see surprises behind our two starters
DB: Infusion of young talent and old guys that can stop gap it this year

I guess maybe long snapper I would be worried about.

Neal hasn't played a down in the NFL since being accused of doping along with the Claymaker and the legendary Peyton Manning, among others. Was a borderline bust.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

I'll be watching Rodgers for signs of fear and decline. But he won't play much, so we'll have to wait for the regular season for that. Preseason is back-up QB time. I'd like to see more than a Kizer Sö so.

If Hundley somehow, someway outperforms his clone, Kizer, should the German Shepherd trade Hundley? Might be able to net a conditional 7th for the Hun.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Death and illness occur in all families, but is seldom enough of an excuse for not reporting to work. Cole Madison needs to put on his big boy pants and be a man moving forward.

Compassionless. You went, or will go, to work after a personal tragedy?

[Zool]

If Hundley somehow, someway outperforms his clone, Kizer, should the German Shepherd trade Hundley? Might be able to net a conditional 7th for the Hun.

Not a chance. Teams would have to have a shit ton of injuries to QBs to give GB anything for him after last year.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Not a chance. Teams would have to have a shit ton of injuries to QBs to give GB anything for him after last year.

Hundley is cheap to keep, but it appears the only reason he's still on the roster is b/c the Packers would rather trade him than cut him. Besides, a conditional 7th is nothing.

[Radagast]

Compassionless. You went, or will go, to work after a personal tragedy?

In 1983, over a 6 week period of time, I lost my Father, my Grandfather and my dear Aunt Bessie. During that same time I had just started a new job with the Federal Government. I had not had time yet to accrue any leave time to fall back on. Following the first death, they were lenient with me and allowed me to take leave without pay. The same with the second death, but I was asked to provide some proof that my Grandfather had died. I provided a copy of his obituary along with the newspaper it was printed in. With the third death, they had the Navel Investigative Service to verify the death before I was allowed the day to attend the funeral. Following each funeral, I was back to work the very next day.

Compassion is what people want for themselves, not others. Yet most of us are willing to allow each their portion of due consideration. Cole Madison has known for months that he was expected to be on time for TC and that he would have much to learn in a very short period of time. He does not have a position on the Packers locked up and will have to get beyond his "personal matter" as quickly as he can.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Hundley is cheap to keep, but it appears the only reason he's still on the roster is b/c the Packers would rather trade him than cut him.

They need camp QBs, and somebody has to beat him out before they cut him. Like Lil Joe, he knows the system, that counts for something.

[Zool]

Hundley is cheap to keep, but it appears the only reason he's still on the roster is b/c the Packers would rather trade him than cut him. Besides, a conditional 7th is nothing.

There's no reason to cut him right now. Everyone carries 4 QBs into camp. A 7th rounder is worth more than Hundley's play of last year off potential alone.

[pbmax]

In 1983, over a 6 week period of time, I lost my Father, my Grandfather and my dear Aunt Bessie. During that same time I had just started a new job with the Federal Government. I had not had time yet to accrue any leave time to fall back on. Following the first death, they were lenient with me and allowed me to take leave without pay. The same with the second death, but I was asked to provide some proof that my Grandfather had died. I provided a copy of his obituary along with the newspaper it was printed in. With the third death, they had the Navel Investigative Service to verify the death before I was allowed the day to attend the funeral. Following each funeral, I was back to work the very next day.

Compassion is what people want for themselves, not others. Yet most of us are willing to allow each their portion of due consideration. Cole Madison has known for months that he was expected to be on time for TC and that he would have much to learn in a very short period of time. He does not have a position on the Packers locked up and will have to get beyond his "personal matter" as quickly as he can.

So the Federal Government somehow saw its way to clearing you for three days off without accruing sick time but Cole Madison needs to get his butt to camp.

I think you need to revisit this statement again and reflect:


Compassion is what people want for themselves, not others.

[mraynrand]

They should look at Hundley on Special Teams. After all they lost All pro receiver and ST demon Janis in the off-season.

[Radagast]

So the Federal Government somehow saw its way to clearing you for three days off without accruing sick time but Cole Madison needs to get his butt to camp.


Those three days were not consecutive and not sick time, but personal time. Like Cole Madison, the timing could not be worse. He does need to pull it together and report to TC ASAP.

I'm most concerned with the RG and RT positions on the Offensive Line. Pushing Bulaga to return off of a serious ACL injury too fast is/could be a major mistake. Let him heal and rehab at a normal pace. Rushing the man could lead to further serious medical delays. Also, this could be a blessing in disguise that might just allow others to elevate their play in front of the Coaches.

[Fritz]

One of the Fackrell/Biegel/Gilbert triumverate has to make like Mao and make the Great Leap Forward, or it will be a long year for the defense.

[pbmax]

One of the Fackrell/Biegel/Gilbert triumverate has to make like Mao and make the Great Leap Forward, or it will be a long year for the defense.

I pity the striving, petty bourgeoisie linebackers. Only true believers will survive the new scheme.

[mraynrand]

One of the Fackrell/Biegel/Gilbert triumverate has to make like Mao and make the Great Leap Forward, or it will be a long year for the defense.

Year Zero! (wait, wrong communist dictator..)

[falco]

Those three days were not consecutive and not sick time, but personal time. Like Cole Madison, the timing could not be worse. He does need to pull it together and report to TC ASAP.

I'm most concerned with the RG and RT positions on the Offensive Line. Pushing Bulaga to return off of a serious ACL injury too fast is/could be a major mistake. Let him heal and rehab at a normal pace. Rushing the man could lead to further serious medical delays. Also, this could be a blessing in disguise that might just allow others to elevate their play in front of the Coaches.

lol

don't get between Radagast and his entertainment...

[Vincenzo]

No doubt in my mind that the hole in the Cheese for the Packers is the rookie secondary.

The team will have to rely heavily upon rookie cornerbacks Jaire Alexander and Josh Jackson, this year’s first- and second-round picks, respectively. Both players will be asked to fill significant roles this season — especially Alexander, who could start at the nickel spot immediately — and how early they contribute might be critical for this year’s defense as a whole.

[Radagast]

No doubt in my mind that the hole in the Cheese for the Packers is the rookie secondary.

The team will have to rely heavily upon rookie cornerbacks Jaire Alexander and Josh Jackson, this year’s first- and second-round picks, respectively. Both players will be asked to fill significant roles this season — especially Alexander, who could start at the nickel spot immediately — and how early they contribute might be critical for this year’s defense as a whole.

I salute you Sir. Few else are able to rise above the sophomoric humor to post a clear, precise, and efficient case. I agree with your assessment and now must add the MLB position to the center stage as well. Injuries have befallen some of GB's LB's and may require younger players to step up their play. Let us hope that it is a blessing in disguise.

[mraynrand]

I salute you Sir. Few else are able to rise above the sophomoric humor to post a clear, precise, and efficient case. I agree with your assessment and now must add the MLB position to the center stage as well. Injuries have befallen some of GB's LB's and may require younger players to step up their play. Let us hope that it is a blessing in disguise.

Don't worry - they have Rollins and the Rookie to play ILB in the dime. Remember, nickel is base, and Packers will be running a lot of dime.

BTW, I resent the sophomoric jab - I am a rising Junior.

[Radagast]

With Jake Ryan's injury, I'm very interested in just who will step up to fill his spot in the 3-4 defense. That said, I've read that the 4-3 defense may be returning and place more pressure on the Defense to be more versatile. Will Martinez be the key to success with both schemes?

[Fritz]

No doubt Martinez will be an important piece. However, I think Ryan had about maxed out - he was just limited, athletically - so I am not as concerned with his absence as I am with Brice's at the safety spot.

[texaspackerbacker]

With all the articles I've read about the Ryan injury, I saw no mention of Clay Matthews playing ILB. That to me would be the obvious solution.

Let Burks learn the job as a backup at OLB - where IMO he is better suited anyway and where we have a lot better depth.

[Radagast]

I would very much like to read about just what/who are/are not doing well at the Right Offensive Guard and Right Offensive Tackle positions.

[mraynrand]

I would very much like to read about just what/who are/are not doing well at the Right Offensive Guard and Right Offensive Tackle positions.

It seems they are happy with the performance of McCray so far at RG. Spriggs looks to be a RT and nothing else - Murph is LT backup. Have to watch the preseason games to be sure of anything.

[mraynrand]

more:

With veteran starter Bryan Bulaga working on the side while rehabbing his torn ACL, it’s become a three-man free-for-all at right tackle. With the first unit, there was a rotation with Jason Spriggs, Kyle Murphy and veteran Byron Bell.

“I like them,” offensive coordinator Joe Philbin when asked about Spriggs and Murphy on Wednesday. “I’ve seen signs from both guys of some really good things. Jason’s got, as we all know, really outstanding athletic skills and he’s got some twitch and quickness, whether it’s in the run game or the pass game. He gets off on the snap count really well and gets to the second level. He does some things really smooth. Kyle’s had a very good snap so far. These last couple days with the pads on, he’s really taken a step forward. It’s a competitive situation there at right tackle.”

[Zool]

That's pretty faint praise for Murphy.

[mraynrand]

That's pretty faint praise for Murphy.

"Kyle’s had a very good snap so far" lol

[pbmax]

Murphy was with the one's a day or two ago, but no indication is was significant or just rotation.

Bell is the guy who stonewalled Fackrell.

Rand is correct, McCray seems to be the guy at RG.

Bulaga back to practice on limited basis.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think the backup QB position looks like a real Achilles heel.

The "who cares about the backup QB we're screwed anyway if Rodgers goes down" argument has been debunked in recent years. It is real common to need a backup QB for 4 or more games in a season.

[mraynrand]

I think the backup QB position looks like a real Achilles heel.

The "who cares about the backup QB we're screwed anyway if Rodgers goes down" argument has been debunked in recent years. It is real common to need a backup QB for 4 or more games in a season.

Yeah, but the 'backup comes in and leads us to the SB' happens about once in a generation too. I guess If there had been a more competent guy at the #2 spot, maybe they get to the playoffs with Rodgers ready to go. But that only kinda worked in 2013. Or, maybe Pederson is just a superior coach and the Eagles have a superior front office. Time will tell for them I suppose. I think we pretty much know what GB has organizationally.

Oh, and don't count out Kizer Söze yet. He may look lame, but I hear it's an act.

[Zool]

I think the backup QB position looks like a real Achilles heel.

The "who cares about the backup QB we're screwed anyway if Rodgers goes down" argument has been debunked in recent years. It is real common to need a backup QB for 4 or more games in a season.

Before the Eagles last year, when was it even challenged? Frank Reich?

[Harlan Huckleby]

Before the Eagles last year, when was it even challenged? Frank Reich?

So you're saying it's rare for a backup to take over mid season and win a super bowl?

Lots of other scenarios where backup QB can matter a lot.

[Zool]

So you're saying it's rare for a backup to take over mid season and win a super bowl?

Lots of other scenarios where backup QB can matter a lot.

The Vikings come to mind from last season. Before that I'm struggling to think of a team where the starter missed more than half the season and the team made the playoffs.

[pbmax]

You have to go back a ways to see a backup (a guy who was not going to be the franchise going forward) take a team to the Super Bowl.

Earl Morral was the king of this. Jeff Hostetler did it but he started for most of that season. And guys who were not the presumed starter (like Foles or Plunkett) often are recycled first round talents who couldn't make it work early in their career. The Vikings started five different guys for playoff runs but each was the starter for the majority of the year (Moon, Brad Johnson, Cunningham, George).

QB by committee due to injury (Browns with Danielson, Pagel and Strock starting for injured Kosar, or Flynn, Tolzien, Wallace for Rodgers) can get a good team to the playoffs but not much farther.

I'd say you are better off spending the money elsewhere if you have a franchise QB. Pickup young ones to backup the All Pro.

[Harlan Huckleby]

If you look at teams who make the playoffs, lots of them had to play some regular season games without the QB who started the season. Everybody knows how critical the QB position is in determining outcome of a game. The value of a backup QB is high - similar to value of a starter at some other positions.
Bringing up unusual situations like a backup winning 8 games or winning the Super Bowl muddies the water.

If the Packers start season with Harried Hundley in the bullpen it is a major chink in the armor.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I'd say you are better off spending the money elsewhere if you have a franchise QB. Pickup young ones to backup the All Pro.

Better be young ones who can win games.

[pbmax]

If you look at teams who make the playoffs, lots of them had to play some regular season games without the QB who started the season. Everybody knows how critical the QB position is in determining outcome of a game. The value of a backup QB is high - similar to value of a starter at some other positions.
Bringing up unusual situations like a backup winning 8 games or winning the Super Bowl muddies the water.

If the Packers start season with Harried Hundley in the bullpen it is a major chink in the armor.

But the important factor here is "some games" not the backup QB quality. Rodgers missed 7 games and 9 games. If those numbers are 5 and 7, the seasons look very different.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Hmmm

https://lombardiave.com/2018/08/06/packers-5-things-watch-preseason-opener/3/

[Harlan Huckleby]

But the important factor here is "some games" not the backup QB quality. Rodgers missed 7 games and 9 games. If those numbers are 5 and 7, the seasons look very different.

So backup QB quality not so important to winning those, say, 5 games? You seem to suggest all backups are similarly unlikely to win. I doubt that.

[Zool]

So backup QB quality not so important to winning those, say, 5 games? You seem to suggest all backups are similarly unlikely to win. I doubt that.

Well with hard data like " I doubt that" you have me sold.

[Tony Oday]

As long as Hundley is the backup we might as well not have one.

[Harlan Huckleby]

https://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2017/7/10/15948238/fact-check-backup-quarterbacks-important-philadelphia-eagles-nick-foles-qb-carson-wentz-chase-daniel

This article confirms your sense that paying more for QB backups is unwise.

But I'm sticking to my story that a capable backup is critical.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Well with hard data like " I doubt that" you have me sold.

Where is your hard data that the ability of the backup QB is unimportant to the outcome of games they play?

[Zool]

Where is your hard data that the ability of the backup QB is unimportant to the outcome of games they play?

You disputed me first.

[Harlan Huckleby]

No puppet. You're the puppet.

[Zool]

No puppet. You're the puppet.

You are

[Harlan Huckleby]

Rubber, glue

[mraynrand]

If you look at teams who make the playoffs, lots of them had to play some regular season games without the QB who started the season.

How many games? Give us a few examples.

Some thoughts based on the Cowboys: The 1994 Cowboys started Peete and Garrett each one game. They won and Aikman went 10-4 for a 12-4 record. Given the surrounding talent, it's hard to say that the QBs here made the difference. But it's safe to say the Cowboys weren't exactly spending big money on backups. They had mix of marginal starters and washed up guys (Kosar, Wade Wilson) during Aikman's run, pretty much like the Packers in 2013. Garrett was only 3-2 in 1998, and in fairness maybe more due to the Cowboys slipping in talent level than due to Garrett being just marginal as backup. But 3-2 I think would be generally acceptable for most for a backup.

The Packers didn't plan to be cheap/cavalier with Hundley, they just got it wrong - I believe they honestly thought they could win more with him. So the fault wasn't the plan, it's was the evaluation of the player.

[Radagast]

In the current times, if one can't pop open a vacuum sealed container and receive instant gratification, then putting forth some effort is out of he question. My point is that developing an NFL QB from a College QB is rarely realised in 1 or sometimes even 2 seasons. Many QB's sucked in their first 12-->15 regular season games. I salute Hundley and any other QB that must try to fill the shoes of an elite QB that has gone down with an injury.
IMO,Hundley showed improvement during his time as GB's replacement QB. I suspect we will see a more mature QB in Hundley this pre-season as he competes for the #2 QB spot against Kinser. I don't see either as the heir apparent to Rodgers, but then one can't fairly compare a polished diamond to a piece of rough quartz.
QB's like Kinser and Hundley that have real game experience are of more value than unproven QBs that have only seen action in pre-season games. On the #2QB question, I must place that decision with the paid professionals like the HC/OC/and GM.

I still see the hole at the RG and LT positions on the O-Line.

[mraynrand]

Ya but Hundley was inexperienced coming in last year. Only the coaches knew if he was ready and they were mostly wrong. Maybe he will improve but inaccuracy usually is resistant to correction.

The jury is out on Kazor

[Radagast]

Ya but Hundley was inexperienced coming in last year. Only the coaches knew if he was ready and they were mostly wrong. Maybe he will improve but inaccuracy usually is resistant to correction.

The jury is out on Kazor

I'd say the jury is out on both.

[mraynrand]

Hundley has been convicted: guilty as sucks. His case is being appealed.

[Harlan Huckleby]

QB's like Kinser and Hundley that have real game experience are of more value than unproven QBs that have only seen action in pre-season games. On the #2QB question, I must place that decision with the paid professionals like the HC/OC/and GM.

I agree with you that the limited regular season experience of the two wannabees is the case that the backup situation is not terrible.

Your comment expressing trust in the paid professionals is forum misconduct and grounds for a one day ban, minimum.

The fact that the sports writers are musing whether the undrafted guy might sneak into the #2 slot suggestS that the backups aren't looking too hot. We'll see - THURSDAY! THURSDAY! THURSDAY!

[pbmax]

So backup QB quality not so important to winning those, say, 5 games? You seem to suggest all backups are similarly unlikely to win. I doubt that.

I am saying if Rodgers misses two fewer games, each season might turn out differently. Spending $5 million more per year on a vet backup looks like a solid idea. This year the beat writers would understand and buy your argument and call it the Tramontana effect. But I don't think it produces a lot more wins even when its the QB.

In 2013, 2 wins was a big deal as the Packers captured the Division, so Flynn was worth a load of money. Barely. But in 2017, 2 more wins just ruins your draft position.

The problem isn't that a better backup is a bad idea. The problem is that there aren't 32 capable starters. So good backups earn starter's money.

That said, not keeping Flynn kinda looks dumb in retrospect. They just have been horrible at picking up another functional guy.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I read in an article from 2016? that half the teams had to use a backup at some point in the season. If half the houses in your neighborhood caught fire in a year, you’d see fire insurance as a good idea. Trouble is, QB insurance often fails to pay out.

I can’t figure out whether it is better to pay (low end) starter’s money for a proven player or gamble on a cheap young guy. Either approach is justified, IMO, the point is you have to guess right. Packers have judged wrong a lot. I don’t know enough about the NFL as a whole to say definitively how Packers compare to other teams, but my sense is that other teams do better.

[Harlan Huckleby]

That said, not keeping Flynn kinda looks dumb in retrospect.

Did he win any games after leaving Pack? (I am too busy to look it up.)

[mraynrand]

I read in an article from 2016? that half the teams had to use a backup at some point in the season. If half the houses in your neighborhood caught fire in a year, you’d see fire insurance as a good idea. Trouble is, QB insurance often fails to pay out.

It also depends on the fires - if they are all total losses, you buy iron-clad replacement value insurance/higher premium. If they are generally limited fires, you buy less insurance/lower premium - or you kick out your pot-smoking 24 year old.

[mraynrand]

I can’t figure out whether it is better to pay (low end) starter’s money for a proven player or gamble on a cheap young guy. Either approach is justified, IMO, the point is you have to guess right. Packers have judged wrong a lot. I don’t know enough about the NFL as a whole to say definitively how Packers compare to other teams, but my sense is that other teams do better.

I agree. I generally see other team's backups come in and look reasonably effective. That doesn't necessarily translate into wins though. Brissett wasn't terrible, didn't look as hapless as Hundley often did, but he wasn't able to carry the Colts (4 wins). The rest of the team didn't help much, and I think that's a general trend - even if the rest of the team is good, they will tend to play more poorly when they see they have no chance. Saw it With Manning going down, saw it with Luck, saw it with Rodgers II (probably because the injury was more severe and looked final). When the Broncos lost Manning for a stretch and put in their horror of a back-up, they had the defense to carry the squad. Lot of factors involved - every situation has it's own unique look.

[hoosier]

Unfortunately I get to watch the Colts every week and I can tell you that Brissett looked every bit as bad as Hundley. And the Brissett-led Colts looked worse than the Hundley-led Packers, probably because the Packers had some semblance of a running game and their defense wasn't quite as bad as Indy's. Maybe the question of whether you have a functional backup QB is actually a multivariable issue that includes overall team talent level and user-friendliness of the offensive schemes. Brissett looked like a revelation when he replaced Garropolo for a game when Brady was deflated, and then when he replaced Luck he sucked. Why? I don't think it was just that the Pats as a team were that much better than the Colts, though that surely didn't hurt: I suspect NE's offense is also easier than many to run for a newby. By contrast, Green Bay's offense appears to be quite difficult to master. Maybe Hundley learned something last year and he'll come out a different QB this year. And then we'll be left to wonder whether he's an August wonder who can't hack it when the calendar page turns.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Maybe Hundley learned something last year and he'll come out a different QB this year.

Except he throws like a girl.

[Joemailman]

Except he throws like a girl.

Yeah, but he's no Jennie Finch.

https://twt-thumbs.washtimes.com/media/image/2017/01/25/finch_mlb_ambassador_baseball_48881_c0-69-1482-933_s885x516.jpg?794b8a3bdcda59bef2792d47d68428a90 c0f6a70