Official Packers vs. Steelers Game Day Thread

[Joemailman]

Things to watch:

Aaron Rodgers to Jimmy Graham. Rodgers' first appearance at Lambeau since Sep. 28.

The wide receiver battle. Moore needs a good game. 5 guys (3 rookies, Kumerow, Davis) battling for 3 or 4 spots.

Jason Spriggs - If he continues to struggle, he could be in trouble.

Josh Jones - Guy has been nearly invisible. He needs to make some plays.

Cornerback: Wold like to see King and Alexander play. Not sure if we will. Rollins needs to bounce back from last week's poor game.

Burks: He can cover. Can he tackle in the run game?

[CaptainKickass]

Obligatory game day post.

[smuggler]

I don't see Davis making the team if any of the rooks can play special teams well.

[Teamcheez1]

Neither Roethlisberger or Landry Jones will take a snap tonight.
All the QB snaps will be divided between Mason Rudolph and Josh Dobbs.

[Teamcheez1]

Key things I will be watching:

1. New WR's
2. Back-up LT's
3. Back-up RB's
4. Revamped Secondary

[pbmax]

I don't see Davis making the team if any of the rooks can play special teams well.

Best returner year they have had in close to 20 years. Someone has to beat him out I think. He's not a lock, but they don't want returns ranked back in the 20s again.

[pbmax]

Of course, if he doesn't play, its not going to matter.

Packer Report @PackerReport
WR Trevor Davis, CB Kevin King, RB Devante Mays, RB Aaron Jones, S Jermaine Whitehead, OLB Nick Perry G Lane Taylor, RT Bryan Bulaga and DT Mike DAniels on the will-not-dress list for #Packers.

[Tony Oday]

Davis, Mays and Whitehead, clean out your lockers.

[pbmax]

Packer Report @PackerReport
So Cobb, Alexander, Bakhtiari and Wilkerson are dressed tonight

Tom Silverstein@TomSilverstein
So, Bryan Bulaga, Aaron Jones and Jermaine Whitehead took part in warm-ups tonight, but are not playing. Just a chance to get them some work

[pbmax]

That is just not fair :lol:

Mason Rudolph in preseason versus 10 year vet.

[pbmax]

Oren Burks could be a demon on ST.

[pbmax]

House and Tramontana starting CBs. MH, Clark and Montravious Adams up front. Holy Fackrell with start. Brice with Ha Ha deep.


Gilbert for Fackrell on second series.

[pbmax]

tex will be happy to know Burks just blitzed. Though he was inside.

[pbmax]

Josh Jones out there in dime.

[pbmax]

Offense for first series:

Packer Report @PackerReport

Rodgers, Graham, Kendricks, Cobb, Williams, Adams, Bakhtiari, Patrick, Linsley, McCray and Murphy

Murphy gets the start for Bulaga.

[Rutnstrut]

That is going to be freaking awesome this season.

[smuggler]

So it begins, Rodgers to Graham.

[pbmax]

Hope to see that a lot this year.

But I have news for everyone, not seeing much change in offense. All static, no motion. Few bunches.

[smuggler]

May be true pbmax, but it's also preseason. Time to check the mano y mano and not time to get trixy with scheme.

[Rutnstrut]

Good to see the D is back to mid season tackling form.

[pbmax]

May be true pbmax, but it's also preseason. Time to check the mano y mano and not time to get trixy with scheme.

I am hoping.

Lowry got tied up on two runs, Brice with horrible tackle attempt. Burks got engulfed and couldn't defend his gap. Martinez guessed wrong and was out of position for that big run.

[smuggler]

Typical defense.

[Zool]

Typical defense.

Happens to every D sometimes, just hope it happens to them less this year.

[pbmax]

78 just blew Wilkerson off the ball. wow. On the TD run.

[pbmax]

Martinez guessed wrong again.

[red]

Well this is ugly

[pbmax]

Terrell Edmunds having a good game (he did give up a TD to Graham).

Trevor Davis job getting safer by the game.

[smuggler]

You're not wrong wrt Davis.

[red]

Hope to see that a lot this year.

But I have news for everyone, not seeing much change in offense. All static, no motion. Few bunches.

Lots of slow developing plays. Taking forever again for guys to run their routes and get open

[pbmax]

Burks with bad read of routes and he left TE open.

[Teamcheez1]

Blake Martinez looks like crap.

[pbmax]

28 points in 5 minutes of game time.

[red]

Sasquatch being held like crazy on his route

[MadScientist]

Intentionally badly thrown ball by hundley.

[pbmax]

My official theory of Hundley getting second QB turn is that they are hoping he looks good and can trade him.

[Teamcheez1]

Defense generally looks like shit.

[MadScientist]

My official theory of Hundley getting second QB turn is that they are hoping he looks good and can trade him.

I agree with you, but I don't think it will work.

[red]

Watching this game is like listening to talk radio. It’s bad enough we have to sit through commercial breaks. Now everything the packers do anything it was “brought to you by kiwk trip” or “ presented by, makesureyoucheckyourassholewisconsin.com”

[red]

My official theory of Hundley getting second QB turn is that they are hoping he looks good and can trade him.

They’ve been trying to do that for 3 years, the problem is, he plays

[Zool]

I agree with you, but I don't think it will work.

Has any team had a significant QB injury yet?

[Zool]

They’ve been trying to do that for 3 years, the problem is, he plays

If you base your assessment of Hundley off preseason, you’d love him. Too bad he started in the regular season last year.

[pbmax]

Is James Harrison still on Steelers? Murphy just let him hit Hundley. #92 either way.

[SMBASS]

Dix picking up where he left off last year...looking like crap. I'm starting to think he's never going to live up to being a 1st Rd. pick.

[pbmax]

Jamaal Williams and O line doing Hundley no favors.

[Tony Oday]

Hundley locks into his reads and doesn't have the football IQ, fast enough, to be an effective NFL QB. Time to cut bait on him.

[red]

Is James Harrison still on Steelers? Murphy just let him hit Hundley. #92 either way.

No, that’s some new guys whose name I’m not even going to try and re type

[pbmax]

Based on this game I am telling the Packers not to listen to Patler and under no circumstances trade Daniels.

[red]

I thought they said the young cbs would be starting tonight?

[pbmax]

Fackrell guessed wrong, fell down, 10 yard run.

[pbmax]

Fackrell just a half step shy of busting a double team and getting a QB hit.

[pbmax]

2nd and 7 was very good Clark penetration, Wilkie with cleanup

[pbmax]

Bad call.

[pbmax]

Boy, if Kendricks could solve the drops, he is Jeff Thomason dangerous.

[pbmax]

I think you could build an offense around Hundley. But the Packers didn't want to do it last year.

[Teamcheez1]

I think you could build an offense around Hundley. But the Packers didn't want to do it last year.

No, Hundley is the definition of mediocre back-up.

[red]

I think you could build an offense around Hundley. But the Packers didn't want to do it last year.

Sure, you could build a team around him

You would be building the Browns

But you sure could do it

[red]

You can’t double team block?

WTF???????

[pbmax]

Very nice Burks TFL.

[pbmax]

No. Too much arm and his legs are too good. He also knows when to escape if not how to create room to throw. He could play for McVay or Shanahan the Younger.

[pbmax]

OK, liked that Rollins return though it looked like slow motion.

[Joemailman]

Kuuuuuuuuuuum!

[Teamcheez1]

The O-line back-ups are pathetic. I can see us scouring the waiver wire in a couple of weeks.

[Joemailman]

Backups at LT are a real concern for sure.

[Rutnstrut]

There's a shocker. Ty Montgomery is hurt.

[pbmax]

You would need a coach to break it down but four defenders threatened the O right side line. Spriggs is RT, 62 is guard. Tackle and Guard block down but Center is unoccupied (his guy did not come) so he helps guard. 3 O lineman on 2 defenders, outside blitzer scares the bejesus out of Hundley and Williams just pushes him wide.

Not sure that is how its drawn up. Williams was on wrong side of formation.

[pbmax]

Murphy has trouble with Dupre's speed.

[Joemailman]

Looks like Gilbert will be on the field any time Clay plays inside.

[pbmax]

Good news for wist. Just saw a 3-3.

Burks played off guard block wide OK. Held gap did not make tackle.

[red]

Sad, our best OLB might not be one of the two guys making over 10 million a year

[smuggler]

Keep Tonyan. Cut Kendricks.

[pbmax]

Punt. Woof.

[pbmax]

Gilbert unblocked. Bad decision between Tackle and RB.

[Rutnstrut]

Sad, our best OLB might not be one of the two guys making over 10 million a year

Even more sad. It's possible that the second best WR on the team right now, may not make the 53.

[pbmax]

McCray - calf
Williams - ankle

[Joemailman]

Sad, our best OLB might not be one of the two guys making over 10 million a year

Why is it sad to have undrafted guys who excel?f

[pbmax]

Fackrell cleaned up for Gilbert sack and beat 3 guys to get there. But he doesn't get to the QB fast enough.

[Joemailman]

Nice throw by Kizer.

[smuggler]

Keep Tonyan. Cut Kendricks.

Can anyone with a better eye for blocking tell me if Tonyan is a good blocking TE?

[pbmax]

There is some Marshall Newhouse in Spriggs. He doesn't always finish his guy.

[pbmax]

Can anyone with a better eye for blocking tell me if Tonyan is a good blocking TE?

Haven't seen him but reporters quoted the position coach as saying he is willing. I think they keep all four.

[pbmax]

Good news. Saw a bunch and a cross in red zone offense.

[Joemailman]

Gilbert doubleteamed.

[pbmax]

Tonyan has an attitude. Gestured to the CB after the flag.

[pbmax]

I think Burks will be able to play in dime and passing situations. Not sure about 3 down ILB though.

[Guiness]

Tonyan having a hell of a night. Can't see 4TEs though, especially if (as many seem to think) the Pack keeps 6WRs again. I think Kendricks has to step up a bit or he's a casualty.

[pbmax]

Someone took a 12 week old to the game. That cannot be good for the kid.

[bobblehead]

Gilbert doubleteamed.

I have taken 2 things from this game. All the camp talk about Gilbert seems to be justified. And MM really wants to incorporate the TEs into the passing game.

[Guiness]

Yelled at the TV early in the game when one of the announcers (can't remember which) mentioned Le'Veon Bell's 'holdout'. No you ass, a holdout is when you are under contract and don't show up. Try 'the Steelers have not signed Bell'?

[Joemailman]

Spriggs at LT. Here's your chance.

[Joemailman]

Finally Scott with the kind of punt he's been hitting in practice.

[smuggler]

Josh Jackson sighting.

[Bretsky]

That Female Ref is kinda HOT

[Bretsky]

Terrell Edmunds having a good game (he did give up a TD to Graham).

Trevor Davis job getting safer by the game.


Steelers always seem to draft the guy I want right after GB passed him up and trades down

[Bretsky]

THAT GUY HAS TO MAKE THE TEAM, DOESN"T HE ????????

[Teamcheez1]

I'm getting on the Kumerow bandwagon.

[pbmax]

Kumerow and Davis have made the team tonight.

[pbmax]

I have taken 2 things from this game. All the camp talk about Gilbert seems to be justified. And MM really wants to incorporate the TEs into the passing game.

James Lofton said the magic words, 12 personnel is a point of focus for the team this year. Graham and blocking TE of your choice plus 1 RB.

[pbmax]

Spriggs at LT. Here's your chance.

It wasn't a tire fire. He looked better out there than on the right. He lost a guy on speed but still got hands on him. He doesn't look like he trusts that leg though. Kizer fell into him while he was at RT, might have nicked it.

[pbmax]

Josh Jackson sighting.

Some rookies don't stand out for a while in the pros. He looks like he can do this.

[Rutnstrut]

Kumerow and Davis have made the team tonight.

But, but, Kumerow has no upside.

[Joemailman]

It's getting to the point where it would be hard to cut Kumerow and maintain that what you do in practice and the preseason games matters.

[pbmax]

I am completely on the Josh Jackson bandwagon after a 38 yard punt return.

[Joemailman]

I am completely on the Josh Jackson bandwagon after a 38 yard punt return.

Bad news for Trevor Davis?

[pbmax]

But, but, Kumerow has no upside.


He might not. And there is still the chance he disappears against the ones next week. Success against 2s and 3s doesn't always translate. But he looks like he instinctively knows how to get open.

[pbmax]

Bad news for Trevor Davis?

I can't seem them trusting punts to a rookie. But its possible if they keep 6 WR and 4 TE.

[pbmax]

Montravious Adams has some burst off the line.

[pbmax]

Jake Kumerow shoulder injury. Will be on IR shortly.

[pbmax]

Jake Kumerow shoulder injury. Will be on IR shortly.

The fix is in!

Jason Wilde @jasonjwilde
Jake Kumerow just emerged from the medical tent behind the #Packers bench. He was in there with Dr. John Gray (not Dr. Pat McKenzie, who is the orthopedist) and was giving a thumbs-up after emerging. Was chatting on the sideline with fellow WR DeAngelo Yancey and Grey Ruegamer.

[pbmax]

The fix is in!

Jason Wilde @jasonjwilde
Jake Kumerow just emerged from the medical tent behind the #Packers bench. He was in there with Dr. John Gray (not Dr. Pat McKenzie, who is the orthopedist) and was giving a thumbs-up after emerging. Was chatting on the sideline with fellow WR DeAngelo Yancey and Grey Ruegamer.

Making it look legit.

Jason Wilde @jasonjwilde
Looked on TV like Dr. Pat McKenzie was testing Jake Kumerow’s right shoulder on the sideline.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DkxNmQ3W4AAes4N.jpg:large

[Guiness]

The fix is in!

Jason Wilde @jasonjwilde
Jake Kumerow just emerged from the medical tent behind the #Packers bench. He was in there with Dr. John Gray (not Dr. Pat McKenzie, who is the orthopedist) and was giving a thumbs-up after emerging. Was chatting on the sideline with fellow WR DeAngelo Yancey and Grey Ruegamer.

Grey Ruegamer, 'ol sweaty hands himself? Is he coaching now?

[pbmax]

Grey Ruegamer, 'ol sweaty hands himself? Is he coaching now?

I am so surprised to see his name it didn't even register he was mentioned. No idea.

[Rutnstrut]

As I said last week, J'Mon Moore sucks. Zool please tell us how great he is again.

[pbmax]

J'Mon Moore looks lost.

[smuggler]

St Brown with 5 targets but could only manage one catch for 12 yards...

[Freak Out]

OK...I'm fine with them drafting the punter now.

[Joemailman]

Grey Ruegamer, 'ol sweaty hands himself? Is he coaching now?

Director Of Player Engagement

[bobblehead]

But, but, Kumerow has no upside.

Arod has no upside from here either. We should cut him :)

[Patler]

Yelled at the TV early in the game when one of the announcers (can't remember which) mentioned Le'Veon Bell's 'holdout'. No you ass, a holdout is when you are under contract and don't show up. Try 'the Steelers have not signed Bell'?

I think the Steelers franchise tagged him again, didn't they? He has refused the franchise tender, which is typically referred to as a holdout, just as unsigned draftees and restricted free agents are. In each of those situations, the team has rights in the player, even if the player has not signed.

[red]

Jake Kumerow shoulder injury. Will be on IR shortly.

He was messing with his shoulder a bit right after the TD

The only contact on the play was when he dove into the end zone for no reason

[pbmax]

I think the Steelers franchise tagged him again, didn't they? He has refused the franchise tender, which is typically referred to as a holdout, just as unsigned draftees and restricted free agents are. In each of those situations, the team has rights in the player, even if the player has not signed.

Still utterly confuses the issue. Virtually no one holds out over rights to a player. They are holding out over contract terms.

[Pugger]

My official theory of Hundley getting second QB turn is that they are hoping he looks good and can trade him.

Yes, I can't believe we traded a former #1 pick to the Browns for Kizer if we weren't gonna make him our backup to 12 this season.

[Pugger]

Jake Kumerow shoulder injury. Will be on IR shortly.

Evidently it was only a stinger.

[texaspackerbacker]

Yes, I can't believe we traded a former #1 pick to the Browns for Kizer if we weren't gonna make him our backup to 12 this season.

I'm thinking that was more a matter of unloading Randall - selling on an upswing of the market - than needing Kizer. He potentially could be the next big thing - remotely, Rodgers successor, more likely, trade him for something of value, or he could be a bust. And Randall - IMO - was only gonna revert and get less valuable.

[Pugger]

I'm thinking that was more a matter of unloading Randall - selling on an upswing of the market - than needing Kizer. He potentially could be the next big thing - remotely, Rodgers successor, more likely, trade him for something of value, or he could be a bust. And Randall - IMO - was only gonna revert and get less valuable.

I would really like to see Kizer play with more starters like Hundley has before a decision is made about our backup.

[ThunderDan]

Got back from the game late last night and finally have time to put my thoughts down:

Hundley needs to go. Twice he had a WR break deep and had his man beat and both times he didn't let the ball fly. I am not sure if it is mechanics or mental but he had two ling gains that he threw away.
Run defense looked horrible. Never get a good angle to see what really happened but PITT got a lot of push from the OL.
HaHa still looked a half step slow. He baited the QB into that crossing route in the end zone for a TD. He tried to jump the route and didn't have the speed to make up the "extra" cushion he gave to the inside. Poor tackling also. Threw himself at the ball carrier's feet multiple times.
CBs looked OK. The one guy who got beat consistently was Goodson. The rest played well. Two pick 6s was awesome.

[Guiness]

I would really like to see Kizer play with more starters like Hundley has before a decision is made about our backup.

Agreed about Kizer. He was in there for a lot more snaps, and got better results than Hundley. I wouldn't be suprised if he's the first one off the bench next week, and maybe start week 4.

[texaspackerbacker]

After finally seeing the replay of the game, I'd say our O Line still ain't very good. No holes for RBs, and everybody from Aaron Rodgers on down was rushed horribly and forced to scramble. When we made plays, it was in spite of the O Line's play, not because of it. Our run defense also wasn't what it should be. If you're gonna have small mobile ILBs, your D Line needs to be stouter than I saw in that game.

The two main talent clusters where we have more good people than we can keep - WR and Corner - got more complicated. I had written off House as good as gone, but he played decent last night. And of course, supposedly lower down wideouts have been outplaying the supposedly better ones.

It's about time somebody starts a thread about the roster - how many of each position at least, if not down to naming names.

[Radagast]

After finally seeing the replay of the game, I'd say our O Line still ain't very good. No holes for RBs, and everybody from Aaron Rodgers on down was rushed horribly and forced to scramble. When we made plays, it was in spite of the O Line's play, not because of it. Our run defense also wasn't what it should be. If you're gonna have small mobile ILBs, your D Line needs to be stouter than I saw in that game.

The two main talent clusters where we have more good people than we can keep - WR and Corner - got more complicated. I had written off House as good as gone, but he played decent last night. And of course, supposedly lower down wideouts have been outplaying the supposedly better ones.

It's about time somebody starts a thread about the roster - how many of each position at least, if not down to naming names.

Your elected, we'll look forward to your new thread !

[run pMc]

After finally seeing the replay of the game, I'd say our O Line still ain't very good. No holes for RBs, and everybody from Aaron Rodgers on down was rushed horribly and forced to scramble. When we made plays, it was in spite of the O Line's play, not because of it. Our run defense also wasn't what it should be. If you're gonna have small mobile ILBs, your D Line needs to be stouter than I saw in that game.

The two main talent clusters where we have more good people than we can keep - WR and Corner - got more complicated. I had written off House as good as gone, but he played decent last night. And of course, supposedly lower down wideouts have been outplaying the supposedly better ones.

It's about time somebody starts a thread about the roster - how many of each position at least, if not down to naming names.

Agree. The run D and OL were hardly bright spots. Davante, Cobb and the TEs looked good, the Rodgers jailbreak is not a good play to keep calling and one Hundley can't master.
I think Kizer has better pocket awareness than Hundley, and there's a lot to be said for that.

If Josh Jackson can return punts Trevor Davis won't make the 53.

[Pugger]

Didn't the Steelers blitz more than most teams do in the preseason?

[Patler]

Still utterly confuses the issue. Virtually no one holds out over rights to a player. They are holding out over contract terms.

So a drafted player who doesn't sign a contract and doesn't come to camp shouldn't be called a "holdout"? That term has been used for as long as I can remember. For a recent example, there are many articles about the Bears' Roquan Smith being a "holdout":

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/24367362/rookie-linebacker-roquan-smith-ends-holdout-chicago-bears

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/ct-spt-bears-brian-urlacher-roquan-smith-holdout-20180803-story.html


The term "holdout" has been used for unsigned tagged players and RFAs or as long as those categories have been around. For example, Ryan grant was called a "holdout" in 2008 when he refused to sign his restricted free agent tender offer:

https://onmilwaukee.com/sports/articles/packcamp080308.htmlWhy is it confusing now?

Example of franchise-tagged players referred to as potential holdouts, including Brees, Forte, Ray Rice and Welker:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1176104-latest-updates-on-franchise-tag-holdouts

Josh Norman was called a holdout in the same circumstances two years ago:

https://pantherswire.usatoday.com/2016/03/22/should-josh-normans-potential-holdout-concern-panthers-fans/



Why, now, is it suddenly confusing?

[texaspackerbacker]

Didn't the Steelers blitz more than most teams do in the preseason?

I didn't hear T.J. Watt mentioned at all. Was he injured or just kept out or what?

And speaking of former Badgers, I didn't see anything of Vince Biegel - injured or what?

[pbmax]

So a drafted player who doesn't sign a contract and doesn't come to camp shouldn't be called a "holdout"? That term has been used for as long as I can remember. For a recent example, there are many articles about the Bears' Roquan Smith being a "holdout":

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/24367362/rookie-linebacker-roquan-smith-ends-holdout-chicago-bears

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/ct-spt-bears-brian-urlacher-roquan-smith-holdout-20180803-story.html


The term "holdout" has been used for unsigned tagged players and RFAs or as long as those categories have been around. For example, Ryan grant was called a "holdout" in 2008 when he refused to sign his restricted free agent tender offer:

https://onmilwaukee.com/sports/articles/packcamp080308.htmlWhy is it confusing now?

Example of franchise-tagged players referred to as potential holdouts, including Brees, Forte, Ray Rice and Welker:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1176104-latest-updates-on-franchise-tag-holdouts

Josh Norman was called a holdout in the same circumstances two years ago:

https://pantherswire.usatoday.com/2016/03/22/should-josh-normans-potential-holdout-concern-panthers-fans/



Why, now, is it suddenly confusing?

Its been used poorly for a long time. I am not arguing that. But if you aren't under contract, calling it a holdout and comparing it to what Mack is doing makes the issue less clear. Fans have decried forever about holdouts. Favre didn't like Walker's holdout. No one liked Sharpe reporting late (it was Sharpe, right?).

No one likes hold outs. Everyone can understand it takes two people to agree to have a contract.

[pbmax]

Didn't the Steelers blitz more than most teams do in the preseason?

Yes.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

I didn't hear T.J. Watt mentioned at all. Was he injured or just kept out or what?

And speaking of former Badgers, I didn't see anything of Vince Biegel - injured or what?

Watt was an injured no-show. Biegel played but he was so invisible, he coulda played naked and not one soul woulda noticed.

In a move that reeked incompetence, Todd traded down when he coulda legally acquired Watts’ slavery, err, service.

[Fritz]

Biegel seems to have been invisible so far this camp. Fackrell can now be re-named either Feckless or Fuckrell.

[pbmax]

Biegel seems to have been invisible so far this camp. Fackrell can now be re-named either Feckless or Fuckrell.

Seems nuts I know, but if Gilbert can get to the QB solo, Matthews, Fackrell and Daniels will get Pro Bowl votes.

[pbmax]

Also no one seems to have seen this so I will repost, Muhammed Wilkerson looks done. D-U-N done.

It was preseason, so it doesn't count and he might not care, but he was invisible for most of the game and got knocked around.

[pbmax]

So a drafted player who doesn't sign a contract and doesn't come to camp shouldn't be called a "holdout"? That term has been used for as long as I can remember. For a recent example, there are many articles about the Bears' Roquan Smith being a "holdout":

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/24367362/rookie-linebacker-roquan-smith-ends-holdout-chicago-bears

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/ct-spt-bears-brian-urlacher-roquan-smith-holdout-20180803-story.html


The term "holdout" has been used for unsigned tagged players and RFAs or as long as those categories have been around. For example, Ryan grant was called a "holdout" in 2008 when he refused to sign his restricted free agent tender offer:

https://onmilwaukee.com/sports/articles/packcamp080308.htmlWhy is it confusing now?

Example of franchise-tagged players referred to as potential holdouts, including Brees, Forte, Ray Rice and Welker:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1176104-latest-updates-on-franchise-tag-holdouts

Josh Norman was called a holdout in the same circumstances two years ago:

https://pantherswire.usatoday.com/2016/03/22/should-josh-normans-potential-holdout-concern-panthers-fans/



Why, now, is it suddenly confusing?


Seems appropriate.


A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. — 'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' — Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.

[Guiness]

So a drafted player who doesn't sign a contract and doesn't come to camp shouldn't be called a "holdout"? That term has been used for as long as I can remember. For a recent example, there are many articles about the Bears' Roquan Smith being a "holdout":

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/24367362/rookie-linebacker-roquan-smith-ends-holdout-chicago-bears

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/ct-spt-bears-brian-urlacher-roquan-smith-holdout-20180803-story.html


The term "holdout" has been used for unsigned tagged players and RFAs or as long as those categories have been around. For example, Ryan grant was called a "holdout" in 2008 when he refused to sign his restricted free agent tender offer:

https://onmilwaukee.com/sports/articles/packcamp080308.htmlWhy is it confusing now?

Example of franchise-tagged players referred to as potential holdouts, including Brees, Forte, Ray Rice and Welker:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1176104-latest-updates-on-franchise-tag-holdouts

Josh Norman was called a holdout in the same circumstances two years ago:

https://pantherswire.usatoday.com/2016/03/22/should-josh-normans-potential-holdout-concern-panthers-fans/



Why, now, is it suddenly confusing?

I'm with pb that "they" can call them hold outs all they want, it doesn't make it accurate. A holdout is when you have a contract, otherwise you are unsigned.

What Bell and Roquan (and years ago, Grant) did is entirely different from Mack's situation, and the CBA recognizes that by providing for fines for Mack, but not for the others who are not currently employed by the NFL.

On the Roquan thing, I felt that was a lot of audacity on the part of the Bears to try and un-guarantee a contract that was guaranteed by the CBA. Can't say is surprises me, but I thing the NFLPA had better step up and squash that or it'll end up as commonplace as the offset language has now become.

[Guiness]

Also no one seems to have seen this so I will repost, Muhammed Wilkerson looks done. D-U-N done.

It was preseason, so it doesn't count and he might not care, but he was invisible for most of the game and got knocked around.

Holy shit I forgot he was out there. He was out there?

[pbmax]

Guiness proposes a nice test for the notion of a hold out.

if you cannot be fined for staying away, its not a hold out.

[Patler]

Seems appropriate.



So why did it take all these year for such a "large-minded' person as your self to bitch about it? Smacks of the epidemic of political correctness that has overtaken so many aspects of our lives. Things that were common and well-understood for years are suddenly abominations to all the self-proclaimed truly great thinkers.

[pbmax]

So why did it take all these year for such a "large-minded' person as your self to bitch about it? Smacks of the epidemic of political correctness that has overtaken so many aspects of our lives. Things that were common and well-understood for years are suddenly abominations to all the self-proclaimed truly great thinkers.

I have been complaining about it since the board was up and running. You'll have to do your own googling to find others who have complained about it longer.

I'll also note that the poster who loves to parse meanings of posts on this board doesn't seem to want to parse the problem of hold out connoting both the withholding of contractually required services and a contract negotiation impasse.

[Patler]

I have been complaining about it since the board was up and running. You'll have to do your own googling to find others who have complained about it longer.

I'll also note that the poster who loves to parse meanings of posts on this board doesn't seem to want to parse the problem of hold out connoting both the withholding of contractually required services and a contract negotiation impasse.

Get serious. You use "holdout" in the same way yourself.:


Ed Werder ‏@Edwerderespn 1h1 hour ago
Source says JPP won't sign franchise tender until confident he can pass physical to prevent #Giants from putting on NFI, having full control

Word was the JPP didn't like the long term offer the Giants had on the table (and pulled). That, plus having not signed the Tender, he has some leeway. But he will have to get healthy quick or his rehab becomes a holdout.

A "holdout"? Really? It was an unsigned tender. Not a holdout. Why were you trying to confuse us all?


You accuse me of parsing meanings, yet I rarely respond without including entire quotes of posts to which I respond, only occasionally deleting unrelated content to shorten the overall post. I certainly WILL and DO highlight specific comments that are what I perceive to be the crux of an error in analysis. If someone argues a+b=c, I will often dispute their conclusion "c" by showing that their fundamental basis "b" for it is incorrect. On the other hand you constantly respond to how I phrase a specific clause and rarely reply to the overall intent or content of my posts. I have come to expect it. You seem to have a bug up you butt about me for some reason, which has been obvious to me for several years now.

Best for the good of this diminishing board that we simply no longer engage each other. I'm sure it is a distraction and of no interest to others.

[pbmax]

Get serious. You use "holdout" in the same way yourself.:

A "holdout"? Really? It was an unsigned tender. Not a holdout. Why were you trying to confuse us all?

You accuse me of parsing meanings, yet I rarely respond without including entire quotes of posts to which I respond, only occasionally deleting unrelated content to shorten the overall post. I certainly WILL and DO highlight specific comments that are what I perceive to be the crux of an error in analysis. If someone argues a+b=c, I will often dispute their conclusion "c" by showing that their fundamental basis "b" for it is incorrect. On the other hand you constantly respond to how I phrase a specific clause and rarely reply to the overall intent or content of my posts. I have come to expect it. You seem to have a bug up you butt about me for some reason, which has been obvious to me for several years now.

Best for the good of this diminishing board that we simply no longer engage each other. I'm sure it is a distraction and of no interest to others.

Patler, I am very fond of both you and your posts. If I respond to you, its because I either find the point valid or worth debating.

I think the debate over the term hold out is worth having.

[pbmax]

But if you are going to quote entire posts that a relevant to illustrate the point, perhaps you could have included two posts below the one you quoted.



Not much of true holdout since 1) he is not under contract, and 2) he can't sign a multi-year contract after a certain date anyway (July 15?). If he doesn't sign until he passes a physical, the effect is the same as being on the NFI - he can't play and isn't getting paid. He just won't attend meetings and the rehab gets done outside the team. He's in full control of not getting paid. The only thing I can think of is that he is trying to negotiate some sort of deal where he gets the Giants to agree to give him something instead of nothing when he is on the NFI list.


Yeah, I am not in favor of calling players not under contract a holdout, but I couldn't think of another term that clearly indicates he is missing camp time.

[Patler]

But if you are going to quote entire posts that a relevant to illustrate the point, perhaps you could have included two posts below the one you quoted.

...and yet your initial inclination was to use the term "holdout", because you did in the post essentially bringing up the issue. What does that say about your conviction to the issue?

[Patler]

Patler, I am very fond of both you and your posts. If I respond to you, its because I either find the point valid or worth debating.

I think the debate over the term hold out is worth having.

I don't think it is worth having, because I think any confusion is minimal at most.

[pbmax]

...and yet your initial inclination was to use the term "holdout", because you did in the post essentially bringing up the issue. What does that say about your conviction to the issue?

Not my initial inclination. That was to find a replacement for it but failed to do so in the time allowed for internet commenting.

I should have simply said he will be out of camp, refusing to sign the tender until the last moment.

[pbmax]

I don't think it is worth having, because I think any confusion is minimal at most.


Then we disagree.

[Guiness]

I don't think it is worth having, because I think any confusion is minimal at most.

Not sure what to make of your line of attack in this thread. You've done the devil's advocate thing (well) in the past, but you don't seem intent on debating here, only responding to pbmax, and not me despite my initially raising the issue and holding the same view.

Is there an axe to grind here?

[Guiness]

Not my initial inclination. That was to find a replacement for it but failed to do so in the time allowed for internet commenting.

I should have simply said he will be out of camp, refusing to sign the tender until the last moment.

I also think using the term holdout helps the owners in the 'managment vs union' approach to this, using a word with a negative connotation to describe the behavior of employees playing well within the rules.

[red]

its weird. team or player

the team is basically a old rich guy who only wants to make as much money as he can. the players are the employees, or basically us

however, we cheer for the team. we're all packer fans or cowboys fans or browns fans. and most of us will still remain fans even after players come and go, even if the team treats them like complete shit. coaches and GMs and everyone else come and go too. just the team name and the guy who owns them stays the same

you would think we would side with the players because they more closely represent us and our constant battle against the man who has us under his thumb. but for whatever reason (probably the owners convincing us that the players are the bad guys), we decide to stick with the POS owners. even though every team (including green bay)has been extorting more and more money from all of us, to line their pockets, and if we agree, the team will move somewhere else

and to help convince the fans that the players are the bad guys, they use terms like "holdout", when in fact they have a shit offer on the table that the player refused

[CaptainKickass]

It's dah hoe 'ting:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDFv0tgTiIQ

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Pbmax has been Patlerized. Patler has been Pbmaxed. Bobble, O’Day and the Kentucky all have been Tanked.

The only fucker who makes any sense in this thread is Red, but his last post in here shoulda been posted in FYI instead.

He said, I’m gonna buy a gun and start a war
if you can tell me something worth fighting for
(For some uncool reason, my Coldplay sig doesn’t show up when I post from phone, so allow me to manually post it. I like reading the sig after each post b/c it gives me hope, even though hope is but an illusion.)

[pbmax]

Matthews on run defense troubles:


“Oh, my God, you get a sample size of a few missed tackles? I mean, that’s what the preseason is for,” linebacker Clay Matthews said. “It’s for the media and fans to freak out, and for us to remain calm. That’s the great thing about it, it’s preseason. The mistakes you make, they’re easily correctable. And, you know, we had 10 guys on the field on the second touchdown run, a few missed tackles here and gap alignments and a few players, and that’s what happens. But we’ve got a new scheme, some young players, and we’re all trying to work toward Week 1. We’ve done some great things in the first two weeks, and we’ve done some not-so-great things. But the thing is, we’re moving closer to where we want to be come Sunday night. So to answer your question, I wouldn’t put too much thought into it. I know, obviously, it doesn’t look good, but we’ll be fine. The run defense has always been all right.”

https://247sports.com/nfl/green-bay-packers/ContentGallery/Green-Bay-Packers-training-camp-notes-for-Practice-13-So-much-for-dress-rehearsal-with-Aaron-Rodgers-likely-to-sit-vs-Oakland-120871964/#120871964_5

[Cheesehead Craig]

I'm holding out on which side of the hold out debate I'm on.

[mraynrand]

Also no one seems to have seen this so I will repost, Muhammed Wilkerson looks done. D-U-N done.

It was preseason, so it doesn't count and he might not care, but he was invisible for most of the game and got knocked around.

If you think a guy like Wilky is gonna put out in preseason, I'd like to sell you a bridge. If I were any of those veteran linemen, I'd just be out there to limber up, get my assignments down and prevent myself from getting injured. I would never go anywhere near 100%.

[pbmax]

If you think a guy like Wilky is gonna put out in preseason, I'd like to sell you a bridge. If I were any of those veteran linemen, I'd just be out there to limber up, get my assignments down and prevent myself from getting injured. I would never go anywhere near 100%.

I am just mildly worried. I will hold off on panic and blame until the 2nd quarter of the Bears game.

In other words, just after posts the 2019 Draft Thread.

EDIT: just after red posts the 2019 Draft Thread ...

[mraynrand]

I am just mildly worried. I will hold off on panic and blame until the 2nd quarter of the Bears game.

In other words, just after posts the 2019 Draft Thread.

That sounds about right

[Patler]

Not sure what to make of your line of attack in this thread. You've done the devil's advocate thing (well) in the past, but you don't seem intent on debating here, only responding to pbmax, and not me despite my initially raising the issue and holding the same view.

Is there an axe to grind here?

Not at all. My first comment on the subject was a direct reply to your post that brought it up. In fact, I quoted your statement:





Yelled at the TV early in the game when one of the announcers (can't remember which) mentioned Le'Veon Bell's 'holdout'. No you ass, a holdout is when you are under contract and don't show up. Try 'the Steelers have not signed Bell'?


I think the Steelers franchise tagged him again, didn't they? He has refused the franchise tender, which is typically referred to as a holdout, just as unsigned draftees and restricted free agents are. In each of those situations, the team has rights in the player, even if the player has not signed.


(Sorry for this untimely reply. I come here only once or twice in a typical week these days. Many more important things taking up my time right now.)

[mraynrand]

(Sorry for this untimely reply. I come here only once or twice in a typical week these days. Many more important things taking up my time right now.)

Don't apologize. I personally feel privileged that you spared some of your valuable time from many more important things to come down here and set the record straight on franchise-tag-denying hold-outs.

[pbmax]

Don't apologize. I personally feel privileged that you spared some of your valuable time from many more important things to come down here and set the record straight on franchise-tag-denying contract disputes.

FIFY.

Never Surrender!