Official Backup QB bitching thread

[Harlan Huckleby]

This topic is being discussed in every thread. As the Germans would say, "Order, vee must have order."


Hundley appears to have been anointed #2. It's not like the other two guys are much better, but I hate that he is the only guy getting reps with the big boys.

Hundley looks like a short bus guy. Slow thinking and reacting. I know that is harsh. Kizer looks a little better. And Boyle looks like he has the most upside of all three.

If Radagast posts that we have to leave these matters to the professionals I'm going to fuck him up.

[red]

Yeah, Kizer needs time with the 1,s

They should have been alternating series last night

[Vincenzo]

in my opinion Hundley proved last season that he's a waste of time. I hate to be pessimist with regards to BH but he's just not that good.
If Rodgers goes down the Packers are finished no matter what way you slice and dice it, so as far as an immediate backup is concerned, I'd personally rather see Kizer in there.

[Tony Oday]

Boot Hundley. Kizer who knows I think he still sucks. Boyle has the arm of a starter and the consistency of a 3rd stringer.

[Freak Out]

Try and trade Hundley before the season and go with Kizer and Boyle.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Try and trade Hundley before the season and go with Kizer and Boyle.

See if you can get a conditional 8th rounder.

BTW, Hundley is 25 years old. Kizer is 22. That gives Kizer a small edge on the hopes and prayers scale.

[texaspackerbacker]

I've never been nearly as negative about Hundley as a lot of people are. I finally got to see the replay of last night's game, and Hundley was not bad. He certainly appeared better than Kizer, although it was just one game.

Maybe the market value of Kizer is higher. If that is the case, trade him and do a better job if the situation ever arises again of preparing Hundley as a back up. Boyle also has looked decent, although he's played against the lowest scrubs of other teams. Practice squad him if possible.

[run pMc]

Boyle has some potential to work with, so he's an almost ideal #3.
That said, neither Kizer nor Boyle look like they have a full grasp of things yet.

Hundley has the most experience in the system and has M3's preferred fundamentals, but at this point his ceiling is the lowest. After 3 years or whatever, he should look the most polished. He looks more improved from last year, but preseason < regular season. I don't think he has the pocket awareness a QB needs -- doesn't 'feel' the rush, doesn't keep eyes downfield consistently, takes off too soon, he throws the ball away, etc.
Not that Kizer is Steve Young to Rodgers' Montana, but Kizer seems to have better pocket awareness, plus he's younger, newer to the system, and has some pretty good physical tools to work with. Also, they basically traded him for Randall, so almost they have to give him a chance to develop in the system. Unless he completely sucks the next 2 games.

I could see a scenario where they keep Hundley and Kizer, with the thinking that Hundley could be the #2 now and Kizer passes him up by midseason. Many people don't think Boyle will last to the PS and another team will poach him.
Most likely they keep Kizer and Boyle, cut Hundley, and if something happens where they need a quick QB help bring Hundley back in. I don't know if many teams will sign Hundley off the street or that he has much trade value.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I could see a scenario where they keep Hundley and Kizer, with the thinking that Hundley could be the #2 now and Kizer passes him up by midseason.

I agree with everything else you said. But I can't imagine using two roster spots for such a flimsy security blanket. They gotta choose.

[Pugger]

Hundley looks better than last season but he had no where to go but up. I too want to see Kizer with more of the starters before I can say which one to keep.

[texaspackerbacker]

Kizer also played against lower level defenders than Hundley - and IMO Hundley did better. The fourth preseason game, Rodgers almost certainly sits out; Play Hundley and Kizer alternating series with whatever first stringers play in that game. Let 'em settle it on the field. From what I've seen, I prefer Hundley to Kizer, but it's still too small a sample to determine it.

[Bretsky]

Did Eliott take Guter to the cleaners on that deal ??

[QBME]

Just watched the replay of the Steelers game.

Hundley seems to play better when not chewing gum.

[Joemailman]

Did Eliott take Guter to the cleaners on that deal ??

Didn't know Eliot was the GM.

Packers got rid of a malcontent. If they get anything out of Kizer, I think it was a good deal.

[wthigoot]

I agree with everything else you said. But I can't imagine using two roster spots for such a flimsy security blanket. They gotta choose.

Agree, think there will be 2 QBs, Rodgers and then Kizer because he has more upside. No return for Hundley. They will keep an extra position player/special teams guy. Boyle will make it through to the taxi (practice) squad.

[mraynrand]

Both Kizer and Hundley tuck and run too early. But man they had some piss poor blocking on some pass plays. Hard to tell. I still think Kizer looks a little better at progressing through his reads.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Kizer also played against lower level defenders than Hundley - and IMO Hundley did better.

I didn't study it that closely, but i thought Kizer was a bit more decisive, and he is quicker moving around in pocket.

I really hate the "playing against third stringers" argument. The late game QB also has third stringers blocking and catching for him.

BTW, what would Boyle look like if he threw to receivers Thursday who could, you know, catch balls right in their hands?

You might be right that Hundley is better than Kizer. I'm judging by very limited impressions. And of course the coaches watch these guys for 50 practices if you count all the minicamps.

[red]

Both Kizer and Hundley tuck and run too early. But man they had some piss poor blocking on some pass plays. Hard to tell. I still think Kizer looks a little better at progressing through his reads.

so does a-rod, although he usually runs to a spot where he can still throw the ball

must be something thats being taught

[texaspackerbacker]

It's because of the damn O Line - almost no blocking at all for any of the QBs. And they couldn't run block either.

[red]

I didn't study it that closely, but i thought Kizer was a bit more decisive, and he is quicker moving around in pocket.

I really hate the "playing against third stringers" argument. The late game QB also has third stringers blocking and catching for him.

BTW, what would Boyle look like if he threw to receivers Thursday who could, you know, catch balls right in their hands?

You might be right that Hundley is better than Kizer. I'm judging by very limited impressions. And of course the coaches watch these guys for 50 practices if you count all the minicamps.

so, by that rational. if you or I played full time QB in a game against a bunch of 8 year olds, and threw 20 tds with a beer in one hand

we should be ready for the nfl hall of fame

the talent you're playing against does matter a lot imo

[pbmax]

The savior might be available again after cut down day.

Mike Triplett @MikeTriplett
Ruling confirmed. Interception. ... You don't want to overreact to a preseason performance. But since Taysom Hill was raw to start with, he needed to show enough polish to win the No. 2 job. His struggles tonight won't help. He should stick as a developmental guy regardless tho.

[Harlan Huckleby]

so, by that rational. if you or I played full time QB in a game against a bunch of 8 year olds, and threw 20 tds with a beer in one hand

we should be ready for the nfl hall of fame

the talent you're playing against does matter a lot imo

In your scenario, you would be so much better than the eight year olds that you would be awesome.

You force Aaron Rodgers to play with the 4th quarter nut squad against the other team's rag tag defense and Rodgers won't necessarily shine. He can't just kick-away the rushers like you did to the 8-year olds. He needs a functioning offense around him to work his magic. Throwing to shitty receivers covered by shitty defenders won"t necessarily look great.

[Fritz]

Bring black Taysom Hill!

[Harlan Huckleby]

Packers got rid of a malcontent. If they get anything out of Kizer, I think it was a good deal.

Randall is a starter at safety now and sounds content.
https://www.ohio.com/akron/sports/browns/safety-damarious-randall-says-browns-showed-they-have-dominant-defense


I don't know how Randall compares to the Packer depth in secondary. On face of it, Browns got the best of the deal. Maybe Kiser will yet beat out out Hundley.

[RashanGary]

Hundley is ok this year. He’d play better than last year for sure. And Graham would help him a lot more than Nelson did. Nelson was more chemistry with AR than actually talented last year.

But his arm talent is, well, average at best. I’d be happier keeping both kizer and Boyle and seeing if one pans out. Hundleys ceiling seems to be .500. Not good enough to waste a roster spot on when we have two guys who have a chance to be better than that.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Hundleys ceiling seems to be .500. Not good enough to waste a roster spot on when we have two guys who have a chance to be better than that.

This is what I think, but I'd put it slightly different way. If Rodgers goes down for 5 games, how many games will the Packers win with Hundley behind center? I guess 0 or 1. I think you want a backup who can win 2 games in a typical 5 game stretch, assuming you have an otherwise playoff caliber team. Anything more than that would be gravy. A good team often could drop 3 games and still make the playoffs. This is my threshold for a backup that is worth a shit.

I'd like to see if Kiser or Boyle have a shot at that level of competence.

[red]

Hundley is ok this year. He’d play better than last year for sure.

based on what? him being a half year older?

he already had over 2 full seasons in the system before taking over the starter duties. even fat mike said he was ready, and he was very blah

i think we saw his ceiling last year, and it wasn't good enough

now kizer didn't lite up the world last year, but it was his first year in a very shitty system. who knows what he can do. we haven't seen his best yet. imo

[Bretsky]

Didn't know Eliot was the GM.

Packers got rid of a malcontent. If they get anything out of Kizer, I think it was a good deal.

Doesn't Eliott have the same responsibilities as he did with GB ? If so he may have facilitated this.

Cleaners

[Bretsky]

Randall is a starter at safety now and sounds content.
https://www.ohio.com/akron/sports/browns/safety-damarious-randall-says-browns-showed-they-have-dominant-defense


I don't know how Randall compares to the Packer depth in secondary. On face of it, Browns got the best of the deal. Maybe Kiser will yet beat out out Hundley.


CONGRATS

1st to come clean :)

[Guiness]

based on what? him being a half year older?

he already had over 2 full seasons in the system before taking over the starter duties. even fat mike said he was ready, and he was very blah

i think we saw his ceiling last year, and it wasn't good enough

now kizer didn't lite up the world last year, but it was his first year in a very shitty system. who knows what he can do. we haven't seen his best yet. imo

A few posters have said Hundley looked better than last year, but it really didn't look like it to me. If anything, worse and unconfident. I was thinking of looking for a copy of the game to watch him and see if I missed anything.

If anyone knows where I can get a copy of it, can you pm me?

[Guiness]

Randall is a starter at safety now and sounds content.
https://www.ohio.com/akron/sports/browns/safety-damarious-randall-says-browns-showed-they-have-dominant-defense


I don't know how Randall compares to the Packer depth in secondary. On face of it, Browns got the best of the deal. Maybe Kiser will yet beat out out Hundley.

If Kizer ends up 2nd string you improve what many believe is the 2nd most important position on the team, making it a good trade. Baffled why the Browns gave up on him after 1 year, during which he started 15 games for them...unless they see Randall as a #1 CB.

[Bretsky]

If Kizer ends up 2nd string you improve what many believe is the 2nd most important position on the team, making it a good trade. Baffled why the Browns gave up on him after 1 year, during which he started 15 games for them...unless they see Randall as a #1 CB.

or if Kizer becomes 2nd string, perhaps partly because we overvalue him and dealt for him, and shows no better than Hundley, we got screwed as well.

Frankly I'd have rather taken a 3rd or 4th round draft pick from the Browns instead of Kizer

But I don't think it was an option. I think they wanted to dump Kizer.

[Pugger]

based on what? him being a half year older?

he already had over 2 full seasons in the system before taking over the starter duties. even fat mike said he was ready, and he was very blah

i think we saw his ceiling last year, and it wasn't good enough

now kizer didn't lite up the world last year, but it was his first year in a very shitty system. who knows what he can do. we haven't seen his best yet. imo

I wish we could see Kizer play with more starters this Friday instead of Hundley. We all know what we have in Hundley.

[Harlan Huckleby]

or if Kizer becomes 2nd string, perhaps partly because we overvalue him and dealt for him, and shows no better than Hundley, we got screwed as well.
The brass seems more dug-in on the Hundley project. I say the worst case scenario is that they keep Hundley and also use a roster spot on Kiser - stubbornly refusing to cut any losses.

BTW, I don't think the decision to trade Randall for Kiser was dumb. Neither player was a sure thing by any stretch. Both may have warn out the patience of their coaching staffs. I just was making point that *so far* things have worked out better for Browns. It will take a couple years to know. (Or a couple weeks if Kiser gets cut.)

[pbmax]

I am of two minds re: Hundley.

red is correct that McCarthy backed him (and Callahan) as ready. "I love our room" is another entry into meaningless coaching platitudes. But M3 also declared him not ready after the season (or near the end) and he blamed the coaches for not having him ready (it wasn't an obvious throwing of other people under the bus, but it could have been read that way - I think Edgar Bennett and Alex Van Pelt might read it that way).

If true, you might think Hundley almost has to improve. But the preseason has been maybe 10-15% better than last year and he is playing versus lesser talent. He has no pocket awareness still.

To me, that looks like his ceiling in McCarthy's offense. McCarthy isn't going to change the offense to be all read option and isolate someone against easy coverage. He made a couple of plays that not many QBs can make, roll out to escape pressure and make a deep or difficult throw. But M3 doesn't want to change the offense to that.

So the next option is Kizer who a little more accurate and has some pocket awareness. He's also a higher level prospect and only one year in. Its makes sense to keep him and see what happens.

But with either starting next year, I don't see many wins. And that is a failure of the front office.

[Teamcheez1]

But with either starting next year, I don't see many wins?
I can't think of any back-up QB's that would produce many wins for the vast majority of NFL teams. If they're that good, they would already be a starter somewhere.

I already know what Hundley can do and don't see him getting much better. If Kizer performs the same in preseason as Hundley, you keep Kizer - better arm, more pocket awareness, better upside. Back-up QB's are just that, back-ups. I just feel Kizer could become something more now that he is out from under the Browns.

[texaspackerbacker]

What I saw was that Hundley made those plays (roll out to escape pressure and make a deep or difficult throw) similar to what Aaron Rodgers is forced to make all the time. Of course, he doesn't have the arm that Rodgers has - nobody does. And of course, he wasn't as polished on some plays as he was on some good ones. The bottom line, though, is he just ain't as bad as so many in here rag on him about - and he has looked better than Kizer while playing earlier in the game, which presumably means against less scrubby competition.

As for "pocket awareness", how can you have that when your O Line practically never even gives you a pocket? The constant (and stupid) whine about Aaron Rodgers not getting rid of the ball quick enough is related to that also. Most of the time, about a second and a half after the snap, he is running for his life due to shitty O Line blocking.

[Harlan Huckleby]

But with Either starting next year, I don't see many wins?
I can't think of any back-up QB's that would produce many wins for the vast majority of NFL teams. If they're that good, they would already be a starter somewhere.
It's hard to find the stats, but I think your impression is wrong. This article says that on average, one NFL team makes the playoffs every year riding a backup QB
http://www.footballperspective.com/making-the-playoffs-with-a-backup-qb/

I think the thing to do is pull some stats out of my ass. I bet a backup QB has about a 25% chance of winning a game on average. And I bet there is high variability. Wish I had some non rectal stats.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Backup QB matters. Hundley is a bad backup. The Packers are not gonna give Kiser a shot to compete for the job, they've decided on Hundley.

We're fucked.

[texaspackerbacker]

Why do you say that? They're giving them about equal playing time, just Hundley first, Kizer second. That's normal - IMO - start with the incumbent, then give a fair shot to the new guy.

Back up QB SOMETIMES matters. When Zeke Bratkowski came in for Bart Starr, the Packers were loaded enough to win with him. When ANYBODY comes in for Rodgers, the Packers are gonna struggle because they just aren't all that loaded other than Aaron Rodgers. So it's hard to say a back up matters under that circumstance.

And I still say, from the small sample I've seen, I'd take Hundley over Kizer.

[Harlan Huckleby]

start with the incumbent, then give a fair shot to the new guy.

Hundley did not prove last year that he deserved to be the "incumbent." He proved he needed to be replaced, and probably should be cut or considered a camp body this year. Giving all the reps with the starting unit to Hundley is not giving a fair shot to the new guy. But that said, maybe Kiser has looked significantly worse than Hundley in practice.


I'd take Hundley over Kizer.
I can't say I've seen enough to have a strong opinion either way, even if I give a slight edge to Kiser. You could be right. But that doesn't mean the team has done a good job with the backup QB position. Hundley is not very good. You want a backup who has the tools to become a starter someday, or at least a vet in the Doug Peterson mold - steady if physically limited.

[Harlan Huckleby]

When ANYBODY comes in for Rodgers, the Packers are gonna struggle because they just aren't all that loaded other than Aaron Rodgers. So it's hard to say a back up matters under that circumstance.

So you think the Vikings and Eagles flourished with backups last year because their overall talent is far superior to the Packers?

I think the Packers should be able to win 2 out of 5 games with a decent backup. Or they stink anyway.

Even if the Packers rely on Rodgers to have a chance of advancing in the playoffs, you still might need a backup who can win a game or two in the regular season just to get you in the playoffs. The backup matters a lot to the Packers. You are burying your head in the sand.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Here's a writer moving in Kizer's Korner today:
https://www.acmepackingcompany.com/2018/8/18/17753546/packers-preseason-opinion-deshone-kizer-brett-hundley-backup-qb-race-competition

[Guiness]

Wish I had some non rectal stats.


Backup QB matters. Hundley is a bad backup. The Packers are not gonna give Kiser a shot to compete for the job, they've decided on Hundley.

We're fucked.

Is your second statement related to your first or is in rectally based?

[Guiness]

What I saw was that Hundley made those plays (roll out to escape pressure and make a deep or difficult throw) similar to what Aaron Rodgers is forced to make all the time.

Ok, you and Partial both allude to Hundley's good play, you've convinced me to go back and watch the series he played. I really don't recall much but the sack he took from the right side and the tuck and run plays.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Is your second statement related to your first or is in rectally based?

http://gif-finder.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Well-the-Jerk-Store-called-and-theyre-running-out-of-you..gif

[texaspackerbacker]

So you think the Vikings and Eagles flourished with backups last year because their overall talent is far superior to the Packers?

I think the Packers should be able to win 2 out of 5 games with a decent backup. Or they stink anyway.

Even if the Packers rely on Rodgers to have a chance of advancing in the playoffs, you still might need a backup who can win a game or two in the regular season just to get you in the playoffs. The backup matters a lot to the Packers. You are burying your head in the sand.

You don't think so? about the Eagles and Vikings I mean. yes maybe we could beat a couple of weak teams without Rodgers - even Hundley did that, right?

[texaspackerbacker]

Ok, you and Partial both allude to Hundley's good play, you've convinced me to go back and watch the series he played. I really don't recall much but the sack he took from the right side and the tuck and run plays.

He was 6 of 9 for 60 something yards plus a running TD. That ain't horrible. No interceptions, one sack which the line clearly gets the blame for, several other sacks avoided when the O Line turned to shit like they do so often.

[texaspackerbacker]

Kizer was no better, but then the poor guy is just getting used to shitty pass blocking. Hundley has plenty of experience that way.

[Smidgeon]

Just watched the Steeler replay. I want Kizer and Boyle behind Rodgers. Hundley has the yips for anything aggressive.

[QBME]

Just watched the Steeler replay. I want Kizer and Boyle behind Rodgers. Hundley has the yips for anything aggressive.

Yup.