Ted and Brian and Dom and Mike

[pbmax]

Many here at Rat Central, and ALL of packer writer Twitter, is agog at the number of players that Ted drafted that Gute has let go.

But many are missing a big piece of the picture. I haven't read everything yet, but I have not seen one mention of the change at Defensive Coordinator as being behind some of the moves.

Remember 2009? When they asked a Pro Bowl DE to move to OLB? And the man was as unhappy as a silent person could appear to be?

AJ Hawk was moved to the middle in what would be, unfortunately, the beginning of the end of his effective play?

They let Colin Cole walk. They traded Tony Moll for Derek Martin. Let go of Lasagna, Antonio Smith (signed especially for Capers it was thought) was cut, let Cyril Obiozor go (they brought him back).

Jeremy Thompson and Brady Poppinga both held down time at OLB but didn't last a month holing off Matthews and by midseason Jones on the other side.

And some guy named Johnny Jolly beat out Justin Harrell and BJ Raji to start next to Pickett and Jenkins.

In 2018, I think the defensive backend has been turned over specifically to match the new scheme. Rollins has a new role. They matchup one big and one smurf with WRs.

Some of the cuts and trades might have been dead weight. But I suspect a number of them were due to the scheme change as well.

[Harlan Huckleby]

This should be an extra credit thread. The questions are too hard.

[Joemailman]

nm

[Rastak]

Many here at Rat Central, and ALL of packer writer Twitter, is agog at the number of players that Ted drafted that Gute has let go.

But many are missing a big piece of the picture. I haven't read everything yet, but I have not seen one mention of the change at Defensive Coordinator as being behind some of the moves.

Remember 2009? When they asked a Pro Bowl DE to move to OLB? And the man was as unhappy as a silent person could appear to be?

AJ Hawk was moved to the middle in what would be, unfortunately, the beginning of the end of his effective play?

They let Colin Cole walk. They traded Tony Moll for Derek Martin. Let go of Lasagna, Antonio Smith (signed especially for Capers it was thought) was cut, let Cyril Obiozor go (they brought him back).

Jeremy Thompson and Brady Poppinga both held down time at OLB but didn't last a month holing off Matthews and by midseason Jones on the other side.

And some guy named Johnny Jolly beat out Justin Harrell and BJ Raji to start next to Pickett and Jenkins.

In 2018, I think the defensive backend has been turned over specifically to match the new scheme. Rollins has a new role. They matchup one big and one smurf with WRs.

Some of the cuts and trades might have been dead weight. But I suspect a number of them were due to the scheme change as well.


Solid take. That plays into it for sure and I haven't heard it mentioned until you did.

[Joemailman]

It is likely a factor. It's precisely the reason why the Colts were looking to trade Antonio Morrison. He was no longer a fit when they switched from 3-4 to 4-3.

[red]

well we didn't exactly switch from a 3-4 to a 4-3

and randall and rollins looked like shit in the last system too

beigel didn't exactly look like a superstar when he got on the field last year either

so it could be that the guys just sucked and that they were bad picks

[Bretsky]

I'm just calling it as I see it; they were shitty picks by ThanksTed

[pbmax]

well we didn't exactly switch from a 3-4 to a 4-3

and randall and rollins looked like shit in the last system too

beigel didn't exactly look like a superstar when he got on the field last year either

so it could be that the guys just sucked and that they were bad picks

Could be. But Rollins is still here. Biegel looked small somehow.

[The Shadow]

Bob & Carol & Ted & Alice

[red]

Could be. But Rollins is still here. Biegel looked small somehow.

is he still here, or or was he bought out?

someone said something about an injury settlement. do we know if that happened or not?

he is being released

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2018/09/02/packers-releasing-quinten-rollins-kyle-murphy-and-devante-mays-with-injury-settlements/

i thought you posted that first?

[Fritz]

well we didn't exactly switch from a 3-4 to a 4-3

and randall and rollins looked like shit in the last system too

beigel didn't exactly look like a superstar when he got on the field last year either

so it could be that the guys just sucked and that they were bad picks


Solid post by PB.

But Red is a helluva poster, at least as far as being succinct and damn funny. And maybe right, too.

[Bretsky]

Solid post by PB.

But Red is a helluva poster, at least as far as being succinct and damn funny. And maybe right, too.


I'll say something you'll never hear me say during a fantasy football draft.

I think Red is right :))))

[call_me_ishmael]

I'll entertain it but the lack of activity with them signing with other teams says a lot*.

* I have been busy and haven't actually validated any of this so there is a very good chance the above is completely false.

[pbmax]

is he still here, or or was he bought out?

someone said something about an injury settlement. do we know if that happened or not?

he is being released

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2018/09/02/packers-releasing-quinten-rollins-kyle-murphy-and-devante-mays-with-injury-settlements/

i thought you posted that first?

yeah, my bad. I remembered the IR but forgot the waived injured.

[pbmax]

I'll entertain it but the lack of activity with them signing with other teams says a lot*.

* I have been busy and haven't actually validated any of this so there is a very good chance the above is completely false.

Thomas and Biegel signed elsewhere. Packers had no players claimed on waivers though. Won't know full story until it leaks out if any PS guys got minimum regular pay to sign.

[pbmax]

Here we go Silverstein: https://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2018/09/02/packers-gm-gutekunst-exploring-mack-deal-then-moving/1159562002/


True to his word

Gutekunst has been true to his word, signing unrestricted free agents, making trades, attempting to steal other teams’ players with offer sheets and throwing his hat in the ring in the Khalil Mack sweepstakes.

Assuming there will be some tinkering with the roster this week, Gutekunst as of Sunday had added 19 players to the roster who were somewhere else last year. That’s a 35.8 percent turnover, which is a considerable jump from a nine-year average of 26.4 percent from 2011-17.

So a 9.4 percent increase is a considerable jump. Is it more than most teams that go 7-9? Is it more than Thompson did prior to the Super Bowl (Silverstein only looks at post Super Bowl rosters). This is a single number without context. And without considering a new DC. Anyone think Wilkerson was on the Packer FA list prior to M3 hiring Pettine?



Whether Gutekunst truly tried to obtain Mack or bowed out when he found out what the Raiders were demanding, he at least tried. As they say in the NFL, some of the best moves are the ones you don’t make.

This literally describes every Ted trade he didn't make. If you don't know what he offered (we only know it wasn't both 2019 first rounders) how do you know that this is different?

[Zool]

This literally describes every Ted trade he didn't make. If you don't know what he offered (we only know it wasn't both 2019 first rounders) how do you know that this is different?

News orgs appeal to their greatest common denominator. People want to read and nod along while saying "yeah Ted sucked" so they massage the information to support the claim. Pretty typical stuff. The reason I never read news anymore. It's all opinion.

Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one and they all stick.

[run pMc]

description of waived/injured here:
https://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2016/09/what_does_it_mean_when_an_nfl_player_is_waivedinju .html


After a player is waived/injured, the player and the team have five days to agree to an injury settlement. An injury settlement is designed for a team to pay the player for the time he is expected to miss with the injury.

If a settlement is reached, the player becomes a free agent and can sign with another team immediately. If a settlement is not reached, the player goes on the team's injured reserve. A player on IR can't be waived until he passes a physical.

If they are waived, they can be resigned after 3 weeks. If they land on IR, they keep getting paid (usually a reduced amount due to split contracts). My guess is they might bring one of Rollins, Murphy or Mays back in a few weeks. My money's would be on either Murphy (Byron Bell scares me) or Mays (RBs get beat up all the time). Rollins is done in GB IMO.

[Fritz]

I was a big believer in Ted Thompson, but when you look at his drafts going back to about 2012, there's not a lot of studliness to show for all those picks. The draft of 2015 was a real clunker - not that Wolf didn't have those drafts; he did - but Ted strung some poor ones together there, with only an occasional player to show for it.

I realize now that without Rodgers, drafted in 2005, this team is nothing. There was last year as proof - and that year McGinn infamously wrote about how the Packers were finally positioned to win should Rodgers go down - then he did, and the Pack tanked.

[run pMc]

Ted's 2015 and 2017 drafts were bad.
Actually, if you look at the entire 2015 draft, it was a bad year for most teams. Jury's still out on 2017, but it doesn't look good for GB.

New GM's and coaches are inclined to clear out a lot of players, but I think it's iffy picks as much as anything.

[run pMc]

As for Dom, I always thought he was constrained by the talent. After watching some of the older games from earlier in his tenure, it seems like his scheme got more vanilla as time went on.
There is a noticeable difference between the 2009 and 2010 defenses and the 2016 & 2017 ones.

Also, Ted was drafting defensive players, they just weren't performing, or put in a place where they could perform.

So....lousy picks, lousy coaching?

[Zool]

As for Dom, I always thought he was constrained by the talent. After watching some of the older games from earlier in his tenure, it seems like his scheme got more vanilla as time went on.
There is a noticeable difference between the 2009 and 2010 defenses and the 2016 & 2017 ones.

Also, Ted was drafting defensive players, they just weren't performing, or put in a place where they could perform.

So....lousy picks, lousy coaching?

Fat Stafford said last year that he was calling out the blitzes at the line and was right about them. It could be both picks and coaching, but coaching was definitely part of the problem. He and Fat Mike are both living on the past at this point.

[pbmax]

I was a big believer in Ted Thompson, but when you look at his drafts going back to about 2012, there's not a lot of studliness to show for all those picks. The draft of 2015 was a real clunker - not that Wolf didn't have those drafts; he did - but Ted strung some poor ones together there, with only an occasional player to show for it.

I realize now that without Rodgers, drafted in 2005, this team is nothing. There was last year as proof - and that year McGinn infamously wrote about how the Packers were finally positioned to win should Rodgers go down - then he did, and the Pack tanked.

So you honestly don't think the coaching staff had anything to do with Hundley and the D not being ready?

[pbmax]

As for Dom, I always thought he was constrained by the talent. After watching some of the older games from earlier in his tenure, it seems like his scheme got more vanilla as time went on.
There is a noticeable difference between the 2009 and 2010 defenses and the 2016 & 2017 ones.

Also, Ted was drafting defensive players, they just weren't performing, or put in a place where they could perform.

So....lousy picks, lousy coaching?

My fear is we will miss both Hyde and Randall at safety if Dix doesn't step it up again.

[MadScientist]

As for Dom, I always thought he was constrained by the talent. After watching some of the older games from earlier in his tenure, it seems like his scheme got more vanilla as time went on.
There is a noticeable difference between the 2009 and 2010 defenses and the 2016 & 2017 ones.

Also, Ted was drafting defensive players, they just weren't performing, or put in a place where they could perform.

So....lousy picks, lousy coaching?

Both. Collins, Woodson and a young CM were elite players that changed games on a regular basis, and nobody in the 2017 defense was like that. The scheme had to be adjusted to deal with lesser players. Unfortunately the way the scheme was adjusted was in a way that that the game had passed by. Opposing QB's could take one look and know exactly what was going on and how to attack. And with turnovers becoming more rare, the net effect was a poor defense. Rodgers helped cover for this by putting pressure on opposing offenses to keep up, which could lead to mistakes.

TT compounded the problems by using high picks on players like Randall and Rollins who were either miscast (Randall) or too slow (Rollins) to be CB's. To be fair, the Packers were desperate for CB's and that was a truly terrible draft for CB's. However, having one injury (Shields) leaving you in panic mode for a critical non-QB position speaks to poor roster management.

[Zool]

A couple bad drafts in a row followed by a series of career ending injuries to current starters explains away the last 3-4 years. They have been horrendous in the backfield for a long time now. They broke records for being bad in 2011. That was with Collins, Tramon, and Woodson on the team. The game passed him by. Every once in a while he would dial up a great plan. Most of the time it felt like they were hanging on by their fingernails.

During the 5 plays inside the 10 at the end of the Philly/ATL game last night I thought, if this were the Packers on D, that team is scoring. We'll see what Heavy Petting brings to the table.

[Tony Oday]

The game passed Dom.

[red]

dom is a classic example of why you have to replace your coaching staff every now and then

i love how so many people are coming out now and saying that it was a good move to fire dom and that we are better off for it. at this point last year many people are saying we were crazy for saying the game had past dom by and that he needed to go

Fat mike has also become stale, for years now, and has needed to be replaced for the same reasons that capers needed to be replaced

[Bretsky]

dom is a classic example of why you have to replace your coaching staff every now and then

i love how so many people are coming out now and saying that it was a good move to fire dom and that we are better off for it. at this point last year many people are saying we were crazy for saying the game had past dom by and that he needed to go

Fat mike has also become stale, for years now, and has needed to be replaced for the same reasons that capers needed to be replaced



THIG instead of THanksTed will be what helps GB's defense the most.
Ted failed us on defense....over and over....Dom is the easy GOAT; look at Ted.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The game passed Dom.

I really doubt this theory. Has Minnesota been better on defense because of smarter schemes? They get better players and have good coaching - motivation & schemes. But it ain't brand new rocket science.

I think once a good coach always a good coach, as long as coach enjoys the work. The technicalities and innovations of a sport, including the rules, evolve very slowly. The 25-year-old coaches don't know much, if anything, that the 70-year-olds haven't thought about.

[Harlan Huckleby]

THIG instead of THanksTed will be what helps GB's defense the most.
Ted failed us on defense....over and over....Dom is the easy GOAT; look at Ted.

I mostly agree with this. But maybe Dom became a "genius" riding the 3-4 wave, and has been a bit over-rated. Fuck if I know.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I thought Dom was a 3-4 innovator with Pittsburgh.


After becoming the predominant defensive alignment in the late 1970s-early 1980s the 3–4 defense declined in popularity over the next two decades, but experienced a resurgence in the 2000s among both professional and college football teams.

Hmmmm...


The Pittsburgh Steelers have used the 3–4 as their base defense since 1982, the season after Hall of Fame defensive tackle Joe Greene and end L. C. Greenwood retired. In fact, the Steelers were the only NFL team to use the 3–4 defense during the 2001 NFL season, but finished the season as the number one defense in the NFL.[2] It is believed that the Steelers success with the 3–4 defense is the primary reason why many NFL teams have started returning to the formation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3%E2%80%934_defense

[Fritz]

So you honestly don't think the coaching staff had anything to do with Hundley and the D not being ready?

PB, you know from my past posts that I think MM is going down a bad road these days. He kept Dom around for too long - surprising since he's shown in the past a willingness or even a proclivity to can his own assistants, essentially blaming them for big-game collapses. He is to blame for saying Hundley was ready (after two years in the system) when he was not at all.

But Thompson and his team seem to have fallen into the trap of complacency - doing the same things over and over, hoping for that one breakthrough year where they got to the SB again. But TT slipped, not getting That Big Stud you've got to get every so often. Furthermore, he botched 2015 and has not compensated with recent drafts that bring even the James Jones-Jermichael Finley-Mike Daniels levels of talent that can take you places.

WhineyMikey may have seen this happening, but his answer was to try to buy players and fire assistants instead of taking his share of the blame. There's enough for everyone. And Ted was also responsible for MM.

The bottom line is that this team has shown that without Rodgers, it's not even a mediocre team. Having said that, you cannot deny that TT was a very good GM for several years in Green Bay. Things just slipped there toward the end, though we still may see Kenny Clark develop into a great player this year.

[Patler]

Many here at Rat Central, and ALL of packer writer Twitter, is agog at the number of players that Ted drafted that Gute has let go.

But many are missing a big piece of the picture. I haven't read everything yet, but I have not seen one mention of the change at Defensive Coordinator as being behind some of the moves.

Remember 2009? When they asked a Pro Bowl DE to move to OLB? And the man was as unhappy as a silent person could appear to be?

AJ Hawk was moved to the middle in what would be, unfortunately, the beginning of the end of his effective play?

They let Colin Cole walk. They traded Tony Moll for Derek Martin. Let go of Lasagna, Antonio Smith (signed especially for Capers it was thought) was cut, let Cyril Obiozor go (they brought him back).

Jeremy Thompson and Brady Poppinga both held down time at OLB but didn't last a month holing off Matthews and by midseason Jones on the other side.

And some guy named Johnny Jolly beat out Justin Harrell and BJ Raji to start next to Pickett and Jenkins.

In 2018, I think the defensive backend has been turned over specifically to match the new scheme. Rollins has a new role. They matchup one big and one smurf with WRs.

Some of the cuts and trades might have been dead weight. But I suspect a number of them were due to the scheme change as well.

Agreed. Then throw in the fact that the Packers had 11 draft picks this year, and you are guaranteed to have more than average turnover. Rookies commonly are kept over veterans who have failed to make significant impact, just because you never know which rookie might develop into an impact player, but you already know that that many of the veterans are JAGs. In a way, Thompson set the groundwork for a roster makeover this year by letting veterans walk in FA last year, resulting in four relatively high compensatory picks that you expect to keep.

[Patler]

I think it remains to be seen if the fact that Randall was traded for a backup QB is an indictment of Thompson's drafting, Gutekunsts' trade, or the coaching staff's inability to work with Randall. He had his ups and downs last year, but was their best corner the last part of the season. The NFL is filled with abrasive personalities, and Randall may be one of them, but maybe the Packers gave up on him too easily. Or, maybe Kizer turns out to be a valuable pickup. Maybe both.

Were Thompson's later drafts any worse than Wolf's later ones? Other than 2000, Wolf's later drafts were pretty weak. 2001 was so bad I doubt either Wolf or Sherman want to claim responsibility for it. When a team makes the playoff's year after year, many of their drafts won't look so good years down the road. Picking toward the bottom of the first round is tough, especially when years are weak overall in talent.

[Fritz]

I think it remains to be seen if the fact that Randall was traded for a backup QB is an indictment of Thompson's drafting, Gutekunsts' trade, or the coaching staff's inability to work with Randall. He had his ups and downs last year, but was their best corner the last part of the season. The NFL is filled with abrasive personalities, and Randall may be one of them, but maybe the Packers gave up on him too easily. Or, maybe Kizer turns out to be a valuable pickup. Maybe both.

Were Thompson's later drafts any worse than Wolf's later ones? Other than 2000, Wolf's later drafts were pretty weak. 2001 was so bad I doubt either Wolf or Sherman want to claim responsibility for it. When a team makes the playoff's year after year, many of their drafts won't look so good years down the road. Picking toward the bottom of the first round is tough, especially when years are weak overall in talent.


I agree that Wolf's later drafts were also not that great, but the topic of discussion was specifically Thompson. And while anyone can admit that picking at the end of the round means fewer good choices, there's enough after-the-fact evidence of really good players being picked after the likes of Datone Jones and Damarious Randall and the like. The move-ups in later drafts - for Spriggs, for example - did not work out close to the move-up for Matthews, and it remains to be seen whether Spriggs can be a serviceable starter, much less an above-average tackle. Yes, hindsight is nice, but Ted is better at this than we are, and I thought was, early on, better at it than the vast majority of his colleagues in the NFL. I just think he slipped a bit toward the end.

I still think he was a very good GM for a good period of time. Given his philosophy of mostly draft and develop, though, he needed to hit big or often a lot more than he was able to as time went on.

[pbmax]

PB, you know from my past posts that I think MM is going down a bad road these days. He kept Dom around for too long - surprising since he's shown in the past a willingness or even a proclivity to can his own assistants, essentially blaming them for big-game collapses. He is to blame for saying Hundley was ready (after two years in the system) when he was not at all.

But Thompson and his team seem to have fallen into the trap of complacency - doing the same things over and over, hoping for that one breakthrough year where they got to the SB again. But TT slipped, not getting That Big Stud you've got to get every so often. Furthermore, he botched 2015 and has not compensated with recent drafts that bring even the James Jones-Jermichael Finley-Mike Daniels levels of talent that can take you places.

WhineyMikey may have seen this happening, but his answer was to try to buy players and fire assistants instead of taking his share of the blame. There's enough for everyone. And Ted was also responsible for MM.

The bottom line is that this team has shown that without Rodgers, it's not even a mediocre team. Having said that, you cannot deny that TT was a very good GM for several years in Green Bay. Things just slipped there toward the end, though we still may see Kenny Clark develop into a great player this year.

McCarthy, for a successful coach (not being sarcastic) really waits for a bad season to can assistants. He dumped a load of them after 2008 and now again after 2017's disaster. I understand why, what I don't understand is how you plan to improve while your team is successful. Managing personnel like this is completely reactive.

I don't think it was complacency that drove Thompson and the front office. I think they thought they were close and did not need major turnover. Its clear now they were slowly getting worse, but it wasn't always obvious. In 2012, after a huge letdown in 2011, the Defense rebounded well. 2013 was another tire fire due to major injuries, but I will once again remind everyone that the Defense kept this team in games while the offense spun its wheels late in the season and post-season (still mad about the 49er playoff game).

In 2014 the Defense was pretty average and it was better than average in 2015. There is no reason other than comically conservative play calling that the 2014 Defense did not propel that team to the Super Bowl. The offense let the Defense down in 2015.

The problem with results like this is that you always think its one healthy guy or one draft pick away from being regularly Top 10. Its clear now it wasn't.

And I agree with you (Fritz) that by now, its clear that top defensive draft picks from this same period were actively making the team worse. They compounded that by letting too much talent walk (Thompson's preference for youth hurt) AND Capers preference for system fits rather than adapting the system (Hyde was let go mainly because he should have been a safety and Capers wanted a hybrid that did not suit him).

One reason to both be mad at McCarthy and understand his desire for some personnel sway, is that had Thompson and Capers brokered a better deal, the defense would have been better AND be better positioned now for the future. I LOVE Jones as the hybrid corner/safety, 3rd safety, 3rd down ILB and he could have done that with Dix and Hyde as true starting safeties.

[Fritz]

" I think they thought they were close and did not need major turnover. Its clear now they were slowly getting worse, but it wasn't always obvious."

This.

"The problem with results like this is that you always think its one healthy guy or one draft pick away from being regularly Top 10. Its clear now it wasn't."

And this.

I think we pretty much agree.

[Patler]

I agree that Wolf's later drafts were also not that great, but the topic of discussion was specifically Thompson. And while anyone can admit that picking at the end of the round means fewer good choices, there's enough after-the-fact evidence of really good players being picked after the likes of Datone Jones and Damarious Randall and the like. The move-ups in later drafts - for Spriggs, for example - did not work out close to the move-up for Matthews, and it remains to be seen whether Spriggs can be a serviceable starter, much less an above-average tackle. Yes, hindsight is nice, but Ted is better at this than we are, and I thought was, early on, better at it than the vast majority of his colleagues in the NFL. I just think he slipped a bit toward the end.

I still think he was a very good GM for a good period of time. Given his philosophy of mostly draft and develop, though, he needed to hit big or often a lot more than he was able to as time went on.

...and yet Datone Jones is starting for Dallas, Lawrence Guy is starting for New England, Jerel Worthy is a backup for Tampa Bay. Randall, Hyde and Hayward are all starters, too. Hyde and Hayward were Pro Bowlers. Bad picks, or did the coaching staff misuse, fail to develop or simply give up on them? I don't pretend to know the answers, but I have tended to see recent playoff failures as coaching letdowns more than anything. Just my opinion. I don't think the defense should have been as putrid as it has been at times even if they didn't have the best talent in the league.

[Fritz]

While I think Datone Jones's starting for Dallas says more about Dallas's lack of talent than it does about Jones, I agree that Capers had a hand in this team's failures. Same for Guy and Worthy, though you could argue Guy was a steal - wasn't he a seventh rounder? But I can't imagine you're arguing that Worthy was a good pick (especially since the Pack moved up to get him) just because he's still in the league. He hasn't done much to speak of anywhere he's been.

I stand by my opinion that TT's system of playing youngsters or giving them the highest number of chances meant that he had pressure to produce more talent in his drafts in order to keep it all going, and he didn't do that quite as well later in his career as he did earlier. That's not to say that I think Capers or MM are blameless; far from it. Yet TT was responsible for keeping MM, too. Yet it would be difficult to fire someone with MM's record.

It's a tough job.

[Patler]

No, Worthy wasn't what you hoped for as a second round pick, but my point with him is that he is still hanging around in his seventh year. Worthy hasn't played much, or done much, but for seven seasons people all around the league have seen some potential in him, or he would have been gone years ago. I've read that scouts consider a draft pick to have been a successful one if the guy is still in the league four years later. Worthy has gone well beyond that, even if by the skin of his teeth. I find it hard to be critical of a pick like that, even if id didn't work out as hoped.

Why has the defense been so bad? I have always felt that things turned south with Collins' injury. He was just hitting his prime and should/could have been the face of the defense for a lot of years. Second factor is that Matthews time as an elite player was very brief. How long has it been since he really impacted the outcome of a game, or stepped up at a critical moment in a game. The BJ Raji situation has always been a bit baffling to me. For a very short time he looked like he could be a real impact player. Was he misused? Did he lack the drive? Did his drive fade because of how he was used? Would other coaches have gotten more out of him?

If Hayward and Hyde had shown more routinely in GB what they have shown since leaving, is there any doubt they would have gotten second contracts in GB? Instead, when they left there was a nagging feeling that it might be regretted, yet on a team with other expensive players it was hard to fault not signing them. But the real question is, why under McCarthy/Capers did they fail to show themselves as reliable components to a better defense?

Thompson has been criticized for other picks like Newhouse, Barbre and Giacomini either at the time they were picked or when they didn't become stars. Yet each lasted in the league for a long time, indicating that the picks were not totally without merit.

The more I think about it, the more blame I direct towards the coaching staff.

[pbmax]

Hayward is a guy who basically was done in by injuries as far as his Packer tenure. He had enough of them that it looked like they had affected his speed and there were other options at CB that were cheaper and healthier. If he doesn't have some of those injuries, he is still probably their starting CB with a bigger contract than the one he signed in San Diego.

In a way, luck simply turned on that position group. The needed help to overcome the loss of Mike McKenzie and the difficulty replacing him. So they signed Woodson, who lasted longer than we probably had a right to expect. When Harris was done, they had Tramontana. When Woodson was done, they had Shields. It normally doesn't work like that as they have seen for a few years.