More Banjo: Week 2 versus Vikings

[pbmax]

Tie game. Here comes the 12-3-1 prediction finally bearing fruit.

[pbmax]

I maintain the Matthews hit was legit according to rules. Ref called him because shoulder was into Cousins.

But he kept weight off Cousins (remember they cannot drive QB into turf with full weight of body) by putting one hand and then two knees into the turf. Kendricks left hist feet and didn't take weight off hit until he rolled over Rodgers prone body.

[pbmax]

I like the throw to the end zone to try to end the game in regulation of the HaHa int.

But the holding or false start killed the next play and meant it HAD to be a pass to have a chance of continuing the drive. Maybe still run here to make them take one TO.

But liked the aggressiveness. I have no doubt on the road it would have been turtle time.

[SMBASS]

F*** Y** NFL!! I don't consider this to be entertaining at all. Entertainment to me is letting the game play out the way it should and be decided on the field instead of by outside influences.

If I want to waste my time messing around or being involved with something that's rigged I'll go to Vegas or invest in the stock market.

[red]

well, my neighbor just turned off the game and said he's done with the NFL after the mathews penalty call

[Tony Oday]

Fuck CMIII he needs to learn how not to rough a passer. He drove him to the ground. Keep your damn head up.

[mraynrand]

Fuck CMIII he needs to learn how not to rough a passer. He drove him to the ground. Keep your damn head up.

It's becoming more than obvious that Clay Matthews is one of the guys they are clearly focusing on with the roughing calls, because in the past, he’s laid into QBs right as/after they get rid of the football...

[Rastak]

I don't think I can articulate accurately my hatred of these new roughing the passer penalties.

How the fuck can you determine if a guys weight was on the QB? And how in the fuck can some big dude tackle him without landing on him.


They DO NOT call it for driving the QB into the ground, you get called for landing on the guy. Richardson got called last week for essentially tacking the guy.

[Tony Oday]

If he doesnt dip his head and drive him he is fine but CMIII is to damn stupid to realize it.

[Zool]

I don't think I can articulate accurately my hatred of these new roughing the passer penalties.

How the fuck can you determine if a guys weight was on the QB? And how in the fuck can some big dude tackle him without landing on him.


They DO NOT call it for driving the QB into the ground, you get called for landing on the guy. Richardson got called last week for essentially tacking the guy.

It’s so fucking stupid it makes me not want to watch. Matthews tackle was a perfect form tackle. Shoulder to the stomach, wrap the legs. Time to give the QBs flags on their belt.

[mraynrand]

I don't think I can articulate accurately my hatred of these new roughing the passer penalties.

How the fuck can you determine if a guys weight was on the QB? And how in the fuck can some big dude tackle him without landing on him.


They DO NOT call it for driving the QB into the ground, you get called for landing on the guy. Richardson got called last week for essentially tacking the guy.

Confusion abounds. The NFL has done it again.

[esoxx]

well, my neighbor just turned off the game and said he's done with the NFL after the mathews penalty call

It's a complete shitshow now.

I put this game right alongside the "Fail Mary" game in Seattle for getting completely ripped off.

The Fail Mary was due to an incompetent replacement referee. This one due to over regulation where no one knows what the hell constitutes "roughing" anymore.

What's really the point of following this garbage any more if this is the "new normal?"

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

I don't think I can articulate accurately my hatred of these new roughing the passer penalties.

How the fuck can you determine if a guys weight was on the QB? And how in the fuck can some big dude tackle him without landing on him.


They DO NOT call it for driving the QB into the ground, you get called for landing on the guy. Richardson got called last week for essentially tacking the guy.

Twitter is lighting up about how packers got robbed. Best quote so far 'The Packers were robbed and the Vikings drove the getaway car into a tree.'

[mraynrand]

It’s so fucking stupid it makes me not want to watch.

QFT

[Rastak]

Twitter is lighting up about how packers got robbed. Best quote so far 'The Packers were robbed and the Vikings drove the getaway car into a tree.'

There were not robbed, they were the victims of these screwball new rules which make no sense.

[mraynrand]

It's a complete shitshow now.

I put this game right alongside the "Fail Mary" game in Seattle for getting completely ripped off.

The Fail Mary was due to an incompetent replacement referee. This one due to over regulation where no one knows what the hell constitutes "roughing" anymore.

What's really the point of following this garbage any more if this is the "new normal?"

I agree. And if you really want to be angry, just watch for what the officials/NFL say about this during the coming week. The will circle the wagons like nobody's business and tell you how stupid you are for not understanding and loving the 'rules.'

[Rastak]

It's a complete shitshow now.

I put this game right alongside the "Fail Mary" game in Seattle for getting completely ripped off.

The Fail Mary was due to an incompetent replacement referee. This one due to over regulation where no one knows what the hell constitutes "roughing" anymore.

What's really the point of following this garbage any more if this is the "new normal?"

Yea, I was pissed in the preseason and more so now that they count. They call it the Rodgers rule and I'm not blaming him, it's the morons in New York.

[SMBASS]

It's a complete shitshow now.

I put this game right alongside the "Fail Mary" game in Seattle for getting completely ripped off.

The Fail Mary was due to an incompetent replacement referee. This one due to over regulation where no one knows what the hell constitutes "roughing" anymore.

What's really the point of following this garbage any more if this is the "new normal?"

Couldn't agree more. It's like watching the WWE now and I sure as Hell don't waste my time watching that shit so I don't know why I continue to waste my time watching the NFL. I need to get back into fishing and doing other stuff on Fall weekends.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

My only regret is, the Claymaker didn’t send Captain Kirk to Hades for the season with that hit.

[Rastak]

My only regret is, the Claymaker didn’t send Captain Kirk to Hades for the season with that hit.

Are you Greg Williams by chance?

That kind of thing works both ways..

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Couldn't agree more. It's like watching the WWE now and I sure as Hell don't waste my time watching that shit so I don't know why I continue to waste my time watching the NFL. I need to get back into fishing and doing other stuff on Fall weekends.

I, along with all of Canada, stopped watching the WWF after Brett “The Hitman” Hart was robbed of the Title in that infamous match against Shawn Michaels.

[Rastak]

I, along with all of Canada, stopped watching the WWF after Brett “The Hitman” Hart was robbed of the Title in that infamous match against Shawn Michaels.


I stopped watching wrestling when The Crusher retired.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Are you Greg Williams by chance?

That kind of thing works both ways..

I was just joking. I woulda been stoic if that happened. Lol.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Shit, I’m watching Pats-Jags, and just saw highlights of the GOAT being slammed onto the ground shortly after releasing rock. No flags.

[esoxx]

I agree. And if you really want to be angry, just watch for what the officials/NFL say about this during the coming week. The will circle the wagons like nobody's business and tell you how stupid you are for not understanding and loving the 'rules.'

Yes. They think fans are complete idiots for the most part. We're not sophisticated enough to understand that was really roughing.

And with how much money is spent in tickets, viewing packages, team apparel, etc..., maybe they are right.

[George Cumby]

Yes. They think fans are complete idiots for the most part. We're not sophisticated enough to understand that was really roughing.

And with how much money is spent in tickets, viewing packages, team apparel, etc..., maybe they are right.

$65 for a T-shirt from the Packers ProShop? I’ll take one inYellow AND Green!

[esoxx]

Yea, I was pissed in the preseason and more so now that they count. They call it the Rodgers rule and I'm not blaming him, it's the morons in New York.

And let me be clear. I would feel just as nauseated if that happened to the opponent on a game clinching play (and it will, these things usually even out). It's just not a good rule and we have seemed to have jumped the shark when it's comes to rule tampering.

[mraynrand]

Yes. They think fans are complete idiots for the most part. We're not sophisticated enough to understand that was really roughing.

And with how much money is spent in tickets, viewing packages, team apparel, etc..., maybe they are right.

An amazing thing happened after that play. Instead of being angry, I lost interest in the outcome of the game. Regardless of outcome, the game was tainted. Same thing happened to a smaller degree last Sunday.

At some point, maybe sooner than later, people are going to stop caring because the outcomes of close games won't make sense, won't have consistency, and will seem arbitrary.

[Rastak]

And let me be clear. I would feel just as nauseated if that happened to the opponent on a game clinching play (and it will, these things usually even out). It's just not a good rule and we have seemed to have jumped the shark when it's comes to rule tampering.


Agree completely.

[pbmax]

I don't think I can articulate accurately my hatred of these new roughing the passer penalties.

How the fuck can you determine if a guys weight was on the QB? And how in the fuck can some big dude tackle him without landing on him.


They DO NOT call it for driving the QB into the ground, you get called for landing on the guy. Richardson got called last week for essentially tacking the guy.

Landing with your full weight, fair enough. I think you are right. But to determine that, you need to see the leverage points and I think they missed one.

[pbmax]

If he doesnt dip his head and drive him he is fine but CMIII is to damn stupid to realize it.

I agree with this. Why, on are you playing so close to the edge with a lead? Same as fourth down call.

[Rutnstrut]

I agree with this. Why, on are you playing so close to the edge with a lead? Same as fourth down call.

So play all out, but only sometimes? My dislike for Clay is no secret. But this was not a fuck up on his part. This is the result of the NFL over reach with its rules. It's a violent sport, that is part of the allure. If they keep taking that away the NFL will lose fans which means they lose money. That is all that they really care about so that is what it will take.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think the play of the game was Rodgers hobbling to the sideline, shadowed by Barr. Barr was close enough to deliver a legal, punishing tackle at Rodgers legs (Rodgers is a runner there, I believe) but Barr pulled up and give him a light push out of bounds. Rodgers could easily have been lost.

[pbmax]

So play all out, but only sometimes? My dislike for Clay is no secret. But this was not a fuck up on his part. This is the result of the NFL over reach with its rules. It's a violent sport, that is part of the allure. If they keep taking that away the NFL will lose fans which means they lose money. That is all that they really care about so that is what it will take.

Discretion is the better part of valor. Tight game with lead, might be time for the 2 handed shove. Why risk giving them the time and field position they need to tie up the game?

[pbmax]

OK, this changes things:

Jason Wilde @jasonjwilde
Referee Tony Corrente told pool reporter @RobDemovsky that Matthews was flagged because, "when he hit the quarterback, he lifted him and drove him into the ground." Was not the new NFL rule about body weight on the QB. Watching this replay ... I don't see it.

He lifted off him before he hit the ground. He did not drive him into the ground.

[Harlan Huckleby]

clay "illegal hit"

https://twitter.com/Deadspin/status/1041430179988549633

[ThunderDan]

clay "illegal hit"

https://twitter.com/Deadspin/status/1041430179988549633

Clay should just be cut right now. That is 2 weeks in a row.

He sees Cousin throwing the ball. Just push him and don’t give the ref any reason to fuck up the call.

[Rastak]

OK, this changes things:

Jason Wilde @jasonjwilde
Referee Tony Corrente told pool reporter @RobDemovsky that Matthews was flagged because, "when he hit the quarterback, he lifted him and drove him into the ground." Was not the new NFL rule about body weight on the QB. Watching this replay ... I don't see it.

He lifted off him before he hit the ground. He did not drive him into the ground.

This shit is still lame.

They call this stuff for no reason.

[pbmax]

He doesn't leave his feet, he doesn't land on him. He puts a hand and one knee (then the other) on the ground before he falls on him.


https://media.giphy.com/media/lzRgKZVCVtmJdKd0a2/giphy.gif

[Harlan Huckleby]

He sees Cousin throwing the ball.
The last Matthews sees is Cousins with the ball cocked. He's one yard away moving full speed.
Matthews tackles him in the midsection just as ball is released.

Matthews had no chance to pull up there.

[Rastak]

LOL, he sure as shit landed on him. Still a bad call.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Matthews was a fraction of a second from disrupting that pass.

[pbmax]

LOL, he sure as shit landed on him. Still a bad call.

His shoulder was into Cousins. His hand and knees touched the ground. He didn't land on him with his full weight is what I was trying to establish.

I don't think either interpretation of the rules (driving him into ground, or landing with full weight) apply here.

[pbmax]

Tom Silverstein @TomSilverstein
QB Aaron Rodgers said he was very sore, not just his knee but several other places, including an eye that got poked early in the game. Said he intends to play next week just like he said he would play last week.

Clay Matthews on his roughing the QB penalty: , I don’t know what else to do. Did I put pressure on him? I thought I hit him within from his waist to chest, got my head across, put my hands down. To call it at that point in the game is just unbelievable."

More Matthews: "Last week, OK, shame on me. But this week, that’s unbelievable. You see how it changed the game. I know there’s an emphasis on protecting quarterbacks, but it’s gotten out of control." #Packers

The delay of game that followed the incompletion to Adams came because McCarthy was waiting for confirmation on whether it was a catch. "There was a lot of communication. We got stuck there," he said. #Packers

McCarthy said on the 2nd and 10 at the 2-minute warning, he wanted a TD: "We felt we needed to score. That’s the decision we needed to make at that point, we weren’t going to play for the field goal. Aaron got outside the pocket, he was clean. He had the shot there to Davante."

[Willard]

Matthews was a fraction of a second from disrupting that pass.um, I think the pass was disrupted! Cuz could not follow through. Piss poor call.

[HowardRoark]

Is this new rule because of the Barr/Rodgers hit last year?

[Rastak]

His shoulder was into Cousins. His hand and knees touched the ground. He didn't land on him with his full weight is what I was trying to establish.

I don't think either interpretation of the rules (driving him into ground, or landing with full weight) apply here.


The entire rule is a fucking joke. Period.

The fact we are discussing the nuance of guy falling down on a hit proves it.

[George Cumby]

I see no penalty there.

[ThunderDan]

God I hate weeks like this. I get so fucking pissed. This will bug me and keep me up way too late.

[Teamcheez1]

I actually thought the Vikings played a better game than the Packers and we were lucky to escape with a tie.

[Fosco33]

Horseshit call

[esoxx]

An amazing thing happened after that play. Instead of being angry, I lost interest in the outcome of the game. Regardless of outcome, the game was tainted.

Exactly. I felt the same way.

Here the Packers are playing the Vikings, huge game, and I literally didn't care at that point.

[esoxx]

The entire rule is a fucking joke. Period.

The fact we are discussing the nuance of guy falling down on a hit proves it.

Completely true.

[pbmax]

Is this new rule because of the Barr/Rodgers hit last year?

Nope. See image post below from the Ref and Demovsky.

[HowardRoark]

Speaking of rules, early in the game Cousins through a deep ball that the receiver was no where near (he had run the wrong route). Cousins was under pressure and inside the tackles; why isn't that grounding?

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/intentional-grounding/

For the record, I don't think it should have be grounding......but it seems to have been within all the definitions of the rule.

[pbmax]

From Wilde's Twitter feed:


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DnP5D_DXoAEgxRk.jpg:large

[pbmax]

Speaking of rules, early in the game Cousins through a deep ball that the receiver was no where near (he had run the wrong route). Cousins was under pressure and inside the tackles; why isn't that grounding?

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/intentional-grounding/

For the record, I don't think it should have be grounding......but it seems to have been within all the definitions of the rule.

There was one play that the refs said he was under no pressure, so no intentional grounding. But I don't remember which play it was.

[HowardRoark]

Nope. See image post below from the Ref and Demovsky.

That's how I read the explanation too......but the new rule that we are alluding to; is that because of Barr?

That would have sucked to have that hit cost us a season and now a game this season too.

[pbmax]

I actually thought the Vikings played a better game than the Packers and we were lucky to escape with a tie.

Packers were better through halftime and most of 3rd. Gave up the long TD and that completely changed the game.

Packer offense was no great shakes after half though.

[Bossman641]

Awful call and the explanation is even worse. Clay lifted him? Try again

[ThunderDan]

Awful call and the explanation is even worse. Clay lifted him? Try again

No shit, I can give the ref the benefit of the doubt for landing on him from his angle. I can’t give him any excuse for fucking up a lifting call.

[pbmax]

That's how I read the explanation too......but the new rule that we are alluding to; is that because of Barr?

That would have sucked to have hat hit cost us a season and now a game this season too.

Everyone has been referring to it as either the Rodgers rule or the Barr rule, but I didn't see anything during the news coverage that indicated it was the primary motivator. It might have been.

Most of the coverage about it was when Peter Morelli gave a talk about the rule and used the Barr hit as an example of what would be illegal this year.

[Rastak]

Everyone has been referring to it as either the Rodgers rule or the Barr rule, but I didn't see anything during the news coverage that indicated it was the primary motivator. It might have been.

Most of the coverage about it was when Peter Morelli gave a talk about the rule and used the Barr hit as an example of what would be illegal this year.

I personally think it was the primary motivator.

[pbmax]

Holding.


https://media.giphy.com/media/ftdVLuKO1dWnJMtl1o/giphy.gif

[pbmax]

Mike Daniels Not Sack


Heaven Daniels, M. Ed. @heavendaniels

"What happened to Mike Daniels?" - trying to avoid a penalty because if the ball had been released it would've been roughing the passer. Clearly he thought it was released. Clearly if he realized it wasn't- diff story. My man def ain't missing out on a sack just because. ��

[Guiness]

Holding.


link to gif if someone wants to see it
https://media.giphy.com/media/ftdVLuKO1dWnJMtl1o/giphy.gif

I saw the DL go rolling across the screen in real time and actually thought it was going to be a clipping call on Bakh, but then saw he was still standing and was confused.

[ThunderDan]

Seriously, how much did the refs get paid for today’s game?

[pittstang5]

I didn't even watch the game (not by choice) and I'm pissed about everything that went on. I've seen the replay on Clay's so called roughing penalty so many times and from different angles. In on replay angle Clay lifts up on Cousin's leg as he's going to the ground. This is got to be why the flag was flown. It's bullshit, it's a perfect tackle.

[bobblehead]

I maintain the Matthews hit was legit according to rules. Ref called him because shoulder was into Cousins.

But he kept weight off Cousins (remember they cannot drive QB into turf with full weight of body) by putting one hand and then two knees into the turf. Kendricks left hist feet and didn't take weight off hit until he rolled over Rodgers prone body.

I have 2 very good friends who are vikings diehards. They both sent me texts saying that was the most legal QB hit they had ever seen in their lives.

[bobblehead]

I like the throw to the end zone to try to end the game in regulation of the HaHa int.

.

Anyone besides me see the second db come in and intentionally drop a forearm to Adams head? Should have been 15 yards no question. The officiating in this game was horrendous. Its the way it works in the NFL. When you get the reputation as the better team you get the calls as well.

[mraynrand]

I have 2 very good friends who are vikings diehards. They both sent me texts saying that was the most legal QB hit they had ever seen in their lives.

same here. One friend was calling me from his Met Stadium seats in his man cave... he did gloat however. Bastard.

[bobblehead]

If he doesnt dip his head and drive him he is fine but CMIII is to damn stupid to realize it.

If he doesn't dip his head he goes helmet to helmet. He made a textbook tackle and rolled away from "driving" him into the ground. That was the worst call since he did similar to cam newton.

[bobblehead]

I, along with all of Canada, stopped watching the WWF after Brett “The Hitman” Hart was robbed of the Title in that infamous match against Shawn Michaels.

Ah...the infamous Montreal screwjob!!

[bobblehead]

An amazing thing happened after that play. Instead of being angry, I lost interest in the outcome of the game. Regardless of outcome, the game was tainted. Same thing happened to a smaller degree last Sunday.

At some point, maybe sooner than later, people are going to stop caring because the outcomes of close games won't make sense, won't have consistency, and will seem arbitrary.

Already there brother. I stopped watching the NBA years ago when I started calling it the WWNBA (like WWF). When the officials determine the outcome its fun if we all know its that way. When they pretend its not, then its no fun.

[bobblehead]

Discretion is the better part of valor. Tight game with lead, might be time for the 2 handed shove. Why risk giving them the time and field position they need to tie up the game?

And if you shove him and he doesn't throw the ball but stumbles away and then completes a 50 yard bomb?

[bobblehead]

Clay should just be cut right now. That is 2 weeks in a row.

He sees Cousin throwing the ball. Just push him and don’t give the ref any reason to fuck up the call.

And what if cousins tucks the ball and you just pushed him and then he rolls away and throws a TD pass?

[mraynrand]

And if you shove him and he doesn't throw the ball but stumbles away and then completes a 50 yard bomb?

Ask Mike Daniels what he thinks

[bobblehead]

Awful call and the explanation is even worse. Clay lifted him? Try again

I guess he is supposed to leg sweep him so he can get him to the ground without lifting?

[bobblehead]

SWEEP THE LEG JONNY!!!

[bobblehead]

COBRA KAI!!!

NO MERCY!!!

[Rutnstrut]

Shit like this is what these players should be protesting. With rules and enforcement like this defensive players are going to be afraid to do their job. This will affect the quality of the "product" across the board. Great job NFL on cutting your own throat.

[Rutnstrut]

Discretion is the better part of valor. Tight game with lead, might be time for the 2 handed shove. Why risk giving them the time and field position they need to tie up the game?


These guys are coached all their lives to go hard until the whistle. Now you want them to kinda go hard. Just make the game flag football and get it over with.

[Patler]

Anyone besides me see the second db come in and intentionally drop a forearm to Adams head? Should have been 15 yards no question. The officiating in this game was horrendous. Its the way it works in the NFL. When you get the reputation as the better team you get the calls as well.

On the first incompletion in the end zone? Ya, I mentioned it to Mrs. Patler as we watched the game. But, I think it was Kendricks, not a DB.

[texaspackerbacker]

I waded through the last four pages here since I last was on, and hell yeah, the Matthews hit was NOT illegal - old rules, new rules, any rules. The only play where the news rules entered into it was Daniels acting out of fear of a penalty on that near-sack. Enough has been said about Matthews, though.

The rotten call on Lane Taylor was just as egregious, and the no call of pass interference when Graham's arm was clearly grabbed before the ball arrived was worse yet and probably had more effect on the game.

I haven't read much here about Davante Adams' TD catch that was taken away. Clearly - to me - he was on the ground with possession - hand pinning it to thigh or body - before the ball started to come loose. Anybody disagree with that?

For all those reasons, this game was stolen from the Packers.

[texaspackerbacker]

On the bright side, coming out of this with a tie, considering all the adversity of the officiating plus Rodgers being less than 100% plus our young DBs not being as good as they should be farther into the season, I'd say the Packers clearly established their superiority against their prime division opponent and one of the top teams in the league.

[yetisnowman]

It's really a sad state of affairs. Here we are debating whether a Packer defender should try to put a clean hit on a QB, or just hold back because even if he does 5/5 of the things correctly he will still get penalized. I've watched that play 30 times, and it's just as ridiculous as the first time I watched it. I still can't believe that gave the game away.

[Harlan Huckleby]

If he doesn't dip his head he goes helmet to helmet. He made a textbook tackle and rolled away from "driving" him into the ground.

exactly right. I really don't get what else anybody is seeing.

[Harlan Huckleby]

For all those reasons, this game was stolen from the Packers.

the Packers would have won if the rules were correctly enforced.

But I don't feel that bad about it because the Vikings played a good second half, they made big plays. It's not like the Packers dominated them if you look at big picture. So packers got fucked, but vaseline was used.

[channtheman]

Refs were terrible. Couple bad calls both ways, but we got hurt way more. Took away a TD on a phantom hold. Took away INT to seal game with phantom roughing passer. Vikings should consider themselves lucky to even get a tie.

[channtheman]

To add to the Matthews situation. We see what happens when you let up "after the QB throws the ball" during the Mike Daniels play in the 3rd quarter. Defender doesn't wrap up or hit QB and instead of a sack it's a 1 yard gain... or potentially worse.

[Joemailman]

I was at the game and hadn't seen the Matthews penalty call until now. That might be the worst call I've ever seen.

[Fosco33]

I wish the NFL would just say - we fucked up and we’ll fix it. It won’t change the outcome and that game will loom large in playoffs.

[Guiness]

I haven't read much here about Davante Adams' TD catch that was taken away. Clearly - to me - he was on the ground with possession - hand pinning it to thigh or body - before the ball started to come loose. Anybody disagree with that?



Nah, replay showed he didn't really have the ball. He tried to pin it but it never stopped moving. Refs got that one right.

The Taylor call was flat out awful. Not sure what they saw there, the Vikings lineman slipped and fell, and in doing so drew a holding call that negated a TD!

[Tony Oday]

Best tweet I saw today was: The refs stole the game from the Packers and the Vikings drove the getaway car into a tree.

MVP for the Pack was Carlson and CMIII was the Vikes MVP.

[call_me_ishmael]

It was a bad call but there are lots of those throughout the game. Packers D blew it, they had the big lead and gave it all away. Don't get it twisted now. King going down really hurt the team. They needed to score touchdowns instead of field goals.

[pbmax]

And if you shove him and he doesn't throw the ball but stumbles away and then completes a 50 yard bomb?

I can't explain what Daniels thought he saw or timed. But Clay knew he was getting there are the ball and arm were coming forward.

The call was hideous, but you could just grab him.

[pbmax]

I saw someone, I thought a safety, drive a shoulder into a WR helmet late in the game. Though it looked dirty but on one replay it looked like the kinder option because if not a turning shoulder, it would have been helmet to helmet.

[Smidgeon]

I agree. And if you really want to be angry, just watch for what the officials/NFL say about this during the coming week. The will circle the wagons like nobody's business and tell you how stupid you are for not understanding and loving the 'rules.'

Good call. Now they're saying it's because it had nothing to do with his weight and because he "picked him up and drove him into the ground." Jobbed. Still.

[Smidgeon]

The last Matthews sees is Cousins with the ball cocked. He's one yard away moving full speed.
Matthews tackles him in the midsection just as ball is released.

Matthews had no chance to pull up there.

And don't forget Daniels let up earlier in the game because he thought Cousins let go of the ball...

[pbmax]

At least we have forgotten that we don't know what a catch is.

[mraynrand]

At least we have forgotten that we don't know what a catch is.

Not exactly. If Adams had established possession of the ball in the end zone, the play should have been over; he should not have to maintain control 'going to the ground.' This is the change I requested after the Pittsburgh/NE debacle last season.

[channtheman]

It was a bad call but there are lots of those throughout the game. Packers D blew it, they had the big lead and gave it all away. Don't get it twisted now. King going down really hurt the team. They needed to score touchdowns instead of field goals.

To be fair, we did score one TD that the refs decided to call holding on because a viking fell down. And then Adams was interfered with in the end zone late in the game too.

[pbmax]

Packer Report @PackerReport

Working on my postgame numbers piece, a bit belatedly. Amazingly, the Packers ran 49 plays on the Vikings' side of the 50 and went 1-of-5 in red zone. Talk all you want about penalties but this is why they didn't win.

Of course one of those missed opportunities was the "holding" by Lane Taylor.

[pbmax]

Is it possible that refs have too many things to watch?

If you call that trip a hold, you obviously aren't looking closely at the infraction. We saw this many times with Linsley. I can understand not needing details on hits/behavior that is regarded as unsafe, but holding doesn't seem to relate to sever injuries the way say a low block could.

Is there a rule about knocking a player over at the LOS who is already going to the ground?

[pbmax]

Anyone got a subscription? Curious what personnel decisions Bob thinks contributed to the tie.

https://t.co/IPQQRomqCq

Bob McGinn @BobMcGinn
At http://BobMcGinnFootball.com : Brutal miscues, personnel decisions led to the 29-29 deadlock between the Packers and Vikings ...

1. CB
2. Backup QB
3. OLB
4. Joe Thomas????

[deake]

Wonder why Jackson wasn't on Diggs rather than House after King went down?

[Teamcheez1]

Packer Report @PackerReport

Working on my postgame numbers piece, a bit belatedly. Amazingly, the Packers ran 49 plays on the Vikings' side of the 50 and went 1-of-5 in red zone. Talk all you want about penalties but this is why they didn't win.

Of course one of those missed opportunities was the "holding" by Lane Taylor.

This is what cost us the game along with some other issues. The offense and defense will continue to get better as the season rolls along. I like our odds at their place.
It's unfortunate that we don't have the players to compete with the Vikings as heard in the echo chamber all week.

[3irty1]

the Packers would have won if the rules were correctly enforced.

But I don't feel that bad about it because the Vikings played a good second half, they made big plays. It's not like the Packers dominated them if you look at big picture. So packers got fucked, but vaseline was used.

This is pretty much how I feel. With so many missed opportunities to win despite the poor officiating, there is something unseemly about getting too upset.

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

This is pretty much how I feel. With so many missed opportunities to win despite the poor officiating, there is something unseemly about getting too upset.

Well, then color me unseemly cause I'm upset. Cause it doesn't matter if NFL reviews the call and says sorry, we blew it, that is a win we ain't gonna get back this year.

[mraynrand]

This is pretty much how I feel. With so many missed opportunities to win despite the poor officiating, there is something unseemly about getting too upset.

The missed opportunities are like salt in the blown call wounds.

[ThunderDan]

Well, then color me unseemly cause I'm upset. Cause it doesn't matter if NFL reviews the call and says sorry, we blew it, that is a win we ain't gonna get back this year.

That's how I feel also. I am not sure why. I know in my mind that I have absolutely no affect on the game. But it sure is fun to make believe that wearing your Packers gear and sitting in the same spot influences the game.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I'm a little upset at the common take here, "The rules suck. Just blame the rules." If you look at the rules they do not suck if they are imposed as written. Rushers shouldn't be able to hit the QB taking two steps or more. You shouldn't be able drive the QB body into the ground. The problem is that it is hard for referees to judge in real time. The refs aren't dummies, they aren't seeing all the TV angles and slo-mo that we are.

What do you want the NFL to do differently? Some seem to want the old days before pussification. But pussification is here to stay, football has to protect players health in order to survive.

Maybe we could have refs in the booth validate these difficult roughing calls by examining TV, like college does with targeting. Not a dumb idea, if I must say so myself.

[pbmax]

I don't mean to go all time traveling Orwellian on a Packers Board, but this is all avoidable if we don't let instant replay be invented.

Would Mike Renfro's career been a lot different if we didn't know he got jobbed in Pittsburgh?

[mraynrand]

^^^ Because they narrowed the window of what is roughing, it seems more difficult to call with consistency, and more difficult for defenders to comply. It could be that it will just take time for both defenders and officials to adjust, but it could also be that they set the threshold at a level that will make judgment more difficult than the catch rule. Also, we may not like the adjusted game - some people do actually like defense - collisions and tackling - to the extent that what Matthews (and Richardson) did was no big deal.

[mraynrand]

I don't mean to go all time traveling Orwellian on a Packers Board, but this is all avoidable if we don't let instant replay be invented.

Would Mike Renfro's career been a lot different if we didn't know he got jobbed in Pittsburgh?

so no recordings of games, no replay, no slow-mo? It was inevitable. People love the highlights especially in 'reverse angle' and in 'slow motion' Some of us actually remember when this stuff - and VHS tape recording - was first 'invented' and brought to the game. Certainly made the games more exciting and memorable.

[pbmax]

I'm a little upset at the common take here, "The rules suck. Just blame the rules." If you look at the rules they do not suck if they are imposed as written. Rushers shouldn't be able to hit the QB taking two steps or more. You shouldn't be able drive the QB body into the ground. The problem is that it is hard for referees to judge in real time. The refs aren't dummies, they aren't seeing all the TV angles and slo-mo that we are.

What do you want the NFL to do differently? Some seem to want the old days before pussification. But pussification is here to stay, football has to protect players health in order to survive.

Maybe we could have refs in the booth validate these difficult roughing calls by examining TV, like college does with targeting. Not a dumb idea, if I must say so myself.

In the end, refs in the booth are going to have to have a bigger role, as terrible as that sounds. College has this down pretty well so the delays are minimized (there are exceptions).

But that is the point about these rules now. They all make sense in the abstract and maybe under video review. But can human refs make these calls consistently?

Morelli is a good head ref. You can sorta see how Matthews did cause Cousins to get lifted up*. If he can't review it and is expected to side on player safety, what percentage of theses calls are going to be correct?


* Cousins went flying backward, though in as much of a defensive collapse as from a terrible blow. One foot left the ground, which should be almost exculpatory unless the defender is somehow twisting the QB to get a drilling into the turf effect.

[pbmax]

so no recordings of games, no replay, no slow-mo? It was inevitable. People love the highlights especially in 'reverse angle' and in 'slow motion' Some of us actually remember when this stuff - and VHS tape recording - was first 'invented' and brought to the game. Certainly made the games more exciting and memorable.

Not serious. But just as replay was almost inevitable because of replay, booth review has to become a bigger part of the game to help slow it down for the guys on the field.

[Fritz]

This is what cost us the game along with some other issues. The offense and defense will continue to get better as the season rolls along. I like our odds at their place.
It's unfortunate that we don't have the players to compete with the Vikings as heard in the echo chamber all week.

While you can count me in amongst those who are absolutely pissed at the Matthews call (I've been watching football for fifty years no and in no universe I've inhabited, even the LSD one, is that a penalty) and the Lane Taylore call. I also don't like that the Packers lost steam, though I do not mind MM's aggressiveness in trying to get to the end zone toward the end of the game. It's a game they ought to have won, and would have if Matthews hadn't had that shitty call against him. But you can also say Pettine's defense failed at the end, like so many of Dom's, and we were hoping for a different vibe. And Kevin King having an injured groin does NOT bode well, either short-term or long-term.

However, I will also say that it's a long, long season, and while this may have some impact somewhere, we don't know how it will all end up. We were very competitive with a team that most of us on this board thinks is much more talented than the Packers at all but one or maybe two positions. So all the doomsday calls about "35 - 17 Minnesota" were flat-out wrong, and there are a lot of games to play. Anything could happen.

[mraynrand]

In the end, refs in the booth are going to have to have a bigger role, as terrible as that sounds. College has this down pretty well so the delays are minimized (there are exceptions).

But that is the point about these rules now. They all make sense in the abstract and maybe under video review. But can human refs make these calls consistently?

Morelli is a good head ref. You can sorta see how Matthews did cause Cousins to get lifted up*. If he can't review it and is expected to side on player safety, what percentage of theses calls are going to be correct?


* Cousins went flying backward, though in as much of a defensive collapse as from a terrible blow. One foot left the ground, which should be almost exculpatory unless the defender is somehow twisting the QB to get a drilling into the turf effect.

You know what would make football even more fun? Have the two political parties, each with a lawyer in the booth, with each supporting one of the teams. The 'booth review' could be the two arguing over the call using language like 'exculpatory evidence' 'precedent' and 'emanations of penumbras' of the NFL rules, until an 'impartial' judge and jury (6 fans each) rules on each call. Could rename the whole enterprise "Law and Order: NFL"

[pbmax]

You know what would make football even more fun? Have the two political parties, each with a lawyer in the booth, with each supporting one of the teams. The 'booth review' could be the two arguing over the call using language like 'exculpatory evidence' 'precedent' and 'emanations of penumbras' of the NFL rules, until an 'impartial' judge and jury (6 fans each) rules on each call. Could rename the whole enterprise "Law and Order: NFL"

Byron Donzis predicted that fans would have handheld devices that allowed them to bet on what happens next in the game.

We could just use those, plus fans at home, to vote on the correct call.

[Zool]

This is pretty much how I feel. With so many missed opportunities to win despite the poor officiating, there is something unseemly about getting too upset.

Same. They played some shitty D in the 4th and kicked 3 FGs

[beveaux1]

The defense doesn't look noticeably different from last year before Rodgers' injury. We just can't get off the field at crunch time. That's why Rodgers was forced to attempt 2 throws into the endzone with less than 2 minutes left in regulation.

After the poor call on Matthews, the Vikings scored a TD, 2 point conversion, medium length FG attempt in OT, and short FG attempt in OT. We missed a medium to long FG attempt, and then nothing. Their defense was there in OT, ours wasn't.

We outplayed them for 3/4 of the game, they strongly outplayed us the last 1/4 with the game on the line. If not for a rookie FG kicker that looked like he belonged on the Browns and a 3rd year receiver that couldn't catch anything, we lose.

[pbmax]

Packers suffered from a classic M3 problem late on offense. He doesn't like calling things they haven't repped during the week and with an injured Rodgers, the call sheet was sparse.

As has been the case frequently since the great offensive slowdown in 2014, their wrinkles are mostly limited to throwing a pass behind the LOS.

He did run a couple of bunches and one slant. But until Rodgers is healthy, this offense will continue to suffer stalling.

[Fritz]

Packers suffered from a classic M3 problem late on offense. He doesn't like calling things they haven't repped during the week and with an injured Rodgers, the call sheet was sparse.

As has been the case frequently since the great offensive slowdown in 2014, their wrinkles are mostly limited to throwing a pass behind the LOS.

He did run a couple of bunches and one slant. But until Rodgers is healthy, this offense will continue to suffer stalling.

Where, oh where, are the classic slants? Almost impossible to stop, usually good for at least five or six yards.

[pbmax]

Well I guess there will not be an apology forthcoming.

Rob Demovsky @RobDemovsky
As @TomPelissero said, the NFL is not only saying Clay Matthews’ hit was a penalty but it’s going to be used as teaching tool for what not to do.

“The technique of grabbing the passer from behind the leg or legs, scooping and pulling in an upward motion, is a foul.”

[Zool]

Tackling a QB is a foul. Looking at a QB with menace or malice is a foul. Any man caught looking at a QB spends a night in the box.

[pbmax]

has not been a stellar season for the safeties.

Rob Demovsky @RobDemovsky
Reviewing the game film from GB-Minn on the 75-yard TD to Diggs, Kentrell Brice had the middle of the field so Davon House (who has everything from the numbers to the boundary) was not supposed to be 1-on-1. As @CFD22 said on the broadcast, Brice didn't ID that properly.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DnUI22GWsAQGYt6.jpg:large

[mraynrand]

has not been a stellar season for the safeties.

Rob Demovsky @RobDemovsky
Reviewing the game film from GB-Minn on the 75-yard TD to Diggs, Kentrell Brice had the middle of the field so Davon House (who has everything from the numbers to the boundary) was not supposed to be 1-on-1. As @CFD22 said on the broadcast, Brice didn't ID that properly.

I don't care what people here say, Davis and Burkhardt are a good broadcasting duo. The production of the game was under par, but they are better than Troy and Joe.

[MadScientist]

Well I guess there will not be an apology forthcoming.

Rob Demovsky @RobDemovsky
As @TomPelissero said, the NFL is not only saying Clay Matthews’ hit was a penalty but it’s going to be used as teaching tool for what not to do.

“The technique of grabbing the passer from behind the leg or legs, scooping and pulling in an upward motion, is a foul.”

The NFL needs to learn physics. Clay hit him right at the waist with his arm and shoulder. That will cause the torso to bend down and the legs to lift up slightly. The motion of both going to the ground caused Clay's feet to leave the ground. It isn't physically possible to play fast and not have that happen. If Clay started to stand up after he hit and then jumped to land with his full weight, then yeah that would have been clear roughing, but none of that happened.

I'm all for eliminating egregious hits, especially on the QB, but surrender and call it flag football if this is roughing.

[Fosco33]

Right. Pick and scoop seems pretty obvious - even in real speed. That was not.

Why can’t we go back to when a catch and a tackle made sense. Pretty soon a fg will be a controversy. Then what’s left to fuck up?

[QBME]

Right. Pick and scoop seems pretty obvious - even in real speed. That was not.

Why can’t we go back to when a catch and a tackle made sense. Pretty soon a fg will be a controversy. Then what’s left to fuck up?

Coin flip?

[pbmax]

Coin flip?

Tripplette already checked that off the list. :D:

[pbmax]

Right. Pick and scoop seems pretty obvious - even in real speed. That was not.

Why can’t we go back to when a catch and a tackle made sense. Pretty soon a fg will be a controversy. Then what’s left to fuck up?


The NFL needs to learn physics. Clay hit him right at the waist with his arm and shoulder. That will cause the torso to bend down and the legs to lift up slightly. The motion of both going to the ground caused Clay's feet to leave the ground. It isn't physically possible to play fast and not have that happen. If Clay started to stand up after he hit and then jumped to land with his full weight, then yeah that would have been clear roughing, but none of that happened.

I'm all for eliminating egregious hits, especially on the QB, but surrender and call it flag football if this is roughing.

From this angle, you can see what Morelli saw. Matthews has one arm around the waist but the other is around a leg. As soon as Cousins went (slightly) into the air, it was going to be a flag. But the problem is the legacy rule. Matthews wasn't close to injuring the QB. He pulled off the tackle by the time they hit the ground. Apparently this kind of hit is called "burping" the QB. But with the other two rules, driving them into the turf and landing with full weight, I am not sure you need this one. If Matthews grabs that leg and lands on him full force OR tries to plant his shoulder into the turf, you call him on the new rules.


https://im3.ezgif.com/tmp/ezgif-3-a8a4e97f57.gif

[esoxx]

Well I guess there will not be an apology forthcoming.

Rob Demovsky @RobDemovsky
As @TomPelissero said, the NFL is not only saying Clay Matthews’ hit was a penalty but it’s going to be used as teaching tool for what not to do.

“The technique of grabbing the passer from behind the leg or legs, scooping and pulling in an upward motion, is a foul.”

So shocking to see the league double down on this idiocy. "teaching tool for what not to do."

RIP NFL

[pbmax]

And then two heroes emerged, each riding a brilliant white charger:


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DnU8GRJX4AA7a2y.jpg:large

[Joemailman]

I have changed my stance that it was the worst call ever. But it might be the worst rule ever. I'm wondering what the NFL thinks Matthews was supposed to do. Only use one arm? Slow down so you don't lift the QB off the ground when you hit him?

[Pugger]

I maintain the Matthews hit was legit according to rules. Ref called him because shoulder was into Cousins.

But he kept weight off Cousins (remember they cannot drive QB into turf with full weight of body) by putting one hand and then two knees into the turf. Kendricks left hist feet and didn't take weight off hit until he rolled over Rodgers prone body.

Well, evidently the fools in NY are now going to use Clay's hit as an example of what NOT to do when tackling a QB. Its going to get that defenders can't even sneeze on the QB...

[Pugger]

Fuck CMIII he needs to learn how not to rough a passer. He drove him to the ground. Keep your damn head up.

BS! On another forum I saw a clip of a Jax defender tackle Tom freaking Brady the same damn way and it wasn't a penalty.

[Pugger]

I waded through the last four pages here since I last was on, and hell yeah, the Matthews hit was NOT illegal - old rules, new rules, any rules. The only play where the news rules entered into it was Daniels acting out of fear of a penalty on that near-sack. Enough has been said about Matthews, though.

The rotten call on Lane Taylor was just as egregious, and the no call of pass interference when Graham's arm was clearly grabbed before the ball arrived was worse yet and probably had more effect on the game.

I haven't read much here about Davante Adams' TD catch that was taken away. Clearly - to me - he was on the ground with possession - hand pinning it to thigh or body - before the ball started to come loose. Anybody disagree with that?

For all those reasons, this game was stolen from the Packers.

A MN defender knocked it out of Davante's hand in the end zone. It was unfortunate but I don't blame Adams there. What was really BAD was OPI on Adams the play before the non PI call when the queen defender grabbed Graham's arm. I've seen other "push-offs" by other WRs that were more obvious that didn't get flagged. :-x

[Pugger]

the Packers would have won if the rules were correctly enforced.

But I don't feel that bad about it because the Vikings played a good second half, they made big plays. It's not like the Packers dominated them if you look at big picture. So packers got fucked, but vaseline was used.

:lol:

[Pugger]

Well, then color me unseemly cause I'm upset. Cause it doesn't matter if NFL reviews the call and says sorry, we blew it, that is a win we ain't gonna get back this year.

True but what do defenders do now? Back off like Daniels did and not play defense??

[Pugger]

Same. They played some shitty D in the 4th and kicked 3 FGs


Yes, but we aren't the team with the lousy kicker. ;-)

[Smidgeon]

With the NFL doubling down on the ridiculous roughing the passer call, it's clear to me we've entered another era in the NFL. Like the "no touching the receiver after 5 yards", this is dramatically changing the game, although in that case, there seemed to be technique that could reasonably be applied so it wasn't just pitch and catch. In this case, it's difficult to see what a defender should do. There isn't a lot of room between Clay late in the game and Daniels early in the game. It seems the NFL would prefer the Daniels move instead, and that cheapens the game dramatically.

I will always be a Packers fan, and I will always watch the games. I'm indoctrinated enough that it isn't really an alternative. But this new emphasis has taken a lot of the fun out of it.

[Pugger]

The defense doesn't look noticeably different from last year before Rodgers' injury. We just can't get off the field at crunch time. That's why Rodgers was forced to attempt 2 throws into the endzone with less than 2 minutes left in regulation.

After the poor call on Matthews, the Vikings scored a TD, 2 point conversion, medium length FG attempt in OT, and short FG attempt in OT. We missed a medium to long FG attempt, and then nothing. Their defense was there in OT, ours wasn't.

We outplayed them for 3/4 of the game, they strongly outplayed us the last 1/4 with the game on the line. If not for a rookie FG kicker that looked like he belonged on the Browns and a 3rd year receiver that couldn't catch anything, we lose.

I get what you are saying but if the correct calls BEFORE the Clay penalty are called correctly we have TDs instead of FGs.

[Pugger]

Packers suffered from a classic M3 problem late on offense. He doesn't like calling things they haven't repped during the week and with an injured Rodgers, the call sheet was sparse.

As has been the case frequently since the great offensive slowdown in 2014, their wrinkles are mostly limited to throwing a pass behind the LOS.

He did run a couple of bunches and one slant. But until Rodgers is healthy, this offense will continue to suffer stalling.

I had no problem with M3 calling for those passes after HHCD's INT. I like his aggresiveness trying to get 6 instead of 3.

[Rutnstrut]

Packers suffered from a classic M3 problem late on offense. He doesn't like calling things they haven't repped during the week and with an injured Rodgers, the call sheet was sparse.

As has been the case frequently since the great offensive slowdown in 2014, their wrinkles are mostly limited to throwing a pass behind the LOS.

He did run a couple of bunches and one slant. But until Rodgers is healthy, this offense will continue to suffer stalling.



The offense sputters when Rodgers is healthy. Stubby is the problem. If things don't go almost exactly as he has planned in his little pea brain. He isn't worth a shit. He probably has panic attacks when they change up the buffet at Golden Corral. He is horrible at coaching on the fly, which a NFL coach kind of needs to do.

[Rutnstrut]

True but what do defenders do now? Back off like Daniels did and not play defense??



Flag football or 2 hand touch.

[texaspackerbacker]

It seems like what Daniels should have done is just wrap up the QB in a big gentle bear hug and not let him go until he hears a whistle.

[Fosco33]

Well I guess there will not be an apology forthcoming.

Rob Demovsky @RobDemovsky
As @TomPelissero said, the NFL is not only saying Clay Matthews’ hit was a penalty but it’s going to be used as teaching tool for what not to do.

“The technique of grabbing the passer from behind the leg or legs, scooping and pulling in an upward motion, is a foul.”


It’s a discount double down!

[mraynrand]

It seems like what Daniels should have done is just wrap up the QB in a big gentle bear hug and not let him go until he hears a whistle.

Not too far off. I think the coaching will catch up with the rules and you'll see more of this.

[call_me_ishmael]

The offense sputters when Rodgers is healthy. Stubby is the problem. If things don't go almost exactly as he has planned in his little pea brain. He isn't worth a shit. He probably has panic attacks when they change up the buffet at Golden Corral. He is horrible at coaching on the fly, which a NFL coach kind of needs to do.

They scored 29 points against the best defense in the NFL. Where's the problem?

[mraynrand]

They scored 29 points against the best defense in the NFL. Where's the problem?

22 (for the offense). I noted that they have had to score 23 to win at home against the current regime. They should have scored more - just had a collection of frustrating near misses.

[Guiness]

22 (for the offense). I noted that they have had to score 23 to win at home against the current regime. They should have scored more - just had a collection of frustrating near misses.

I'm going to go with the offense scoring 29 - give them the called back TD on the Lang holding call!

[pbmax]

It seems like what Daniels should have done is just wrap up the QB in a big gentle bear hug and not let him go until he hears a whistle.

Exactly. Just don't take to the ground and you are OK.

[Cheesehead Craig]

The NFL is doubling down on supporting their officials. They are now using the Matthews hit as the textbook example of roughing the passer.

https://sports.yahoo.com/nfl-reportedly-use-clay-matthews-controversial-penalty-example-illegal-qb-hit-203822011.html

I should be surprised that they insult our intelligence with the lift and drive bullshit, but I'm not.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Well, evidently the fools in NY are now going to use Clay's hit as an example of what NOT to do when tackling a QB. Its going to get that defenders can't even sneeze on the QB...

Yes, it was a bad call. And yes, we all are still pissed. But in the long run, Pack might benefit from this infamous Claymaker exhibit as opponents might be reluctant to take cheap shots at the Great Arm of Butte.

[Smidgeon]

I don't know if I've stated it before, but I'm off the M3 wagon. With Rodgers, offense and points shouldn't be a problem. Brady had gone on record saying Rodgers is so much better than he leading to the implication that the offensive scheme isn't. What can they do to score points at will again? The Vikings game shouldn't have been that close.

[pbmax]

They've lost Peter King.

Peter King @peter_king
If that’s a real penalty, the NFL has crossed the rubicon.

[HowardRoark]

They've lost Peter King.

Peter King @peter_king
If that’s a real penalty, the NFL has crossed the rubicon.

Packer fans are the only ones that know what that phrase means.

[mraynrand]

Packer fans are the only ones that know what that phrase means.

That's Gauling.

[Fritz]

Pettine has not been able to scheme a pass rush. Not yet, anyway.

TT's whiffs on Fackrell and Datone Jones have really hurt this team. Man, there's not much margin for error in this league. TT hit on lots of players over the years, but just a couple more misses these last couple years, and it doesn't look so promising.

I wonder if he started going for need more in his later drafts and this cost him. When he started, he sometimes made picks that made you wonder "Man, we didn't need one of those," but then it often worked out. Rodgers, Aaron, being the number one example. Later, he tried drafting for need more, perhaps. His '15 draft of Randall and Rollins with the first two picks was reminiscent of Wolf's response to Randy Moss by drafting Antuan/Antwan Edwards, Fred Vinson, and Mike Mckenzie in the first three rounds.

[Smidgeon]

Pettine has not been able to scheme a pass rush. Not yet, anyway.

TT's whiffs on Fackrell and Datone Jones have really hurt this team. Man, there's not much margin for error in this league. TT hit on lots of players over the years, but just a couple more misses these last couple years, and it doesn't look so promising.

I wonder if he started going for need more in his later drafts and this cost him. When he started, he sometimes made picks that made you wonder "Man, we didn't need one of those," but then it often worked out. Rodgers, Aaron, being the number one example. Later, he tried drafting for need more, perhaps. His '15 draft of Randall and Rollins with the first two picks was reminiscent of Wolf's response to Randy Moss by drafting Antuan/Antwan Edwards, Fred Vinson, and Mike Mckenzie in the first three rounds.

Don't forget the defensive draft starting with Perry and Worthy. That was the draft where I thought it was more reaction than anything. The defense was beat bad, let's beef it up. However, it was still a good draft (but not great): Perry, Daniels, Hayward with three of the first four picks. The other pick in that group didn't turn out to be such a Worthy player.

[pbmax]

Scott Kacsmar @FO_ScottKacsmar
25% of the OT ties in NFL history involve the Packers (6/24)

I haven't looked it up but I wonder if that is history or a recent development. I remember two of them I think. Lions was pretty recent, no?

[Joemailman]

Scott Kacsmar @FO_ScottKacsmar
25% of the OT ties in NFL history involve the Packers (6/24)

I haven't looked it up but I wonder if that is history or a recent development. I remember two of them I think. Lions was pretty recent, no?

Vikings in 2013. Matt Flynn rallied team after Tolzien started.

[hoosier]

Scott Kacsmar @FO_ScottKacsmar
25% of the OT ties in NFL history involve the Packers (6/24)

I haven't looked it up but I wonder if that is history or a recent development. I remember two of them I think. Lions was pretty recent, no?

That is since 1974 when OT was introduced. Starr was HC for three of them ('78, '80, '82). Forrest Gregg owned one of them ('87), and MM two (both against Queens).

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

The NFL is doubling down on supporting their officials. They are now using the Matthews hit as the textbook example of roughing the passer.

https://sports.yahoo.com/nfl-reportedly-use-clay-matthews-controversial-penalty-example-illegal-qb-hit-203822011.html

I should be surprised that they insult our intelligence with the lift and drive bullshit, but I'm not.

Wednesday, and I'm still mad about the call. I saw this and thought, oh great, now instead of one stupid asshole who blatantly blows a call, ALL the refs will be doing the same thing.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Wednesday, and I'm still mad about the call. I saw this and thought, oh great, now instead of one stupid asshole who blatantly blows a call, ALL the refs will be doing the same thing.

It is completely disheartening. I am completely on board with the pussification of the NFL - there is no option. Yet there is nothing that Matthews did that substantially harms a QB. The case is that he lifted the QB off the ground as he tackled him. That is going to happen to a small degree with any tackle below the QB's center of gravity. It is already illegal to tackle high. There is no legal target zone.

I suppose as others have suggested the way to go is to just wrap-up the QB. Hug him - kill him with kindness. The problem there is you really have to come in high to grab his arms, and an accidental contact with helmets is likely.

A tackle like Matthews made has to be kept legal.

[texaspackerbacker]

The God damned official claimed the reason he made the call was Matthews "lifted the QB" and drove him into the ground. Just look at the film. Cousins did what Rodgers, Favre, and a lot of other QBs do - he was off his feet when he threw. Matthews did not lift him, he merely caught him while Cousins was in the air from his own jump.

As for the "pussification" thing, I've said many times, for the money these guys are paid to play basically a fun game, they SHOULD be prepared to risk life and limb, including the damn concussion thing. If that is a problem for somebody, they can go the Borland route and quit.

[run pMc]

Yeah, that was my thought too - just hug the QB and walk them back to the end zone or until the whistle. You're right about a helmet to helmet though.

It's a bad rule and a worse call. The Kendricks call earlier was iffy too IMO. I think they need to rethink this rule. Yes, it will help prolong the QB's career, but there are lots of rules that already do that. Things favor the offense to where it's like Arena football.
I'm not suggesting they roll back everything to the Jack Tatum era, but they've gone way too far. You gotta let defenders play with aggression, not confusion.

If they don't fix, repeal, or call the rule better someone is going to lose a playoff game because of this. The game should be decided by the teams, not the refs.

[Rutnstrut]

If they keep putting rules in the game to baby the QB. They need to start devaluing the QB contracts? What actual risks will they be taking? Chronic hangnail?

[texaspackerbacker]

I don't know about devaluing QB contracts. Nobody but nobody has the power to determine game outcomes more than the QB - and of course, Aaron Rodgers is the obvious prime example of that. Khalil Mack, Leveon Bell, the best DBs, the best WRs, the best O and D linemen, all of them are the supporting cast/all of those need the right circumstance to make a difference. All a great QB needs is for his team to have the ball, and he either wins it like Rodgers or loses it like Kizer.

[denverYooper]

I don't know about devaluing QB contracts. Nobody but nobody has the power to determine game outcomes more than the QB - and of course, Aaron Rodgers is the obvious prime example of that. Khalil Mack, Leveon Bell, the best DBs, the best WRs, the best O and D linemen, all of them are the supporting cast/all of those need the right circumstance to make a difference. All a great QB needs is for his team to have the ball, and he either wins it like Rodgers or loses it like Kizer.

Spot on. These kinds of rule changes only make the QB more valuable.

[MadScientist]

Rodgers calls BS on the roughing penalty, including the one where he got hit:

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2018/09/19/packers-qb-aaron-rodgers-disagreed-with-roughing-the-passer-penalties/

[Carolina_Packer]

I'm a little upset at the common take here, "The rules suck. Just blame the rules." If you look at the rules they do not suck if they are imposed as written. Rushers shouldn't be able to hit the QB taking two steps or more. You shouldn't be able drive the QB body into the ground. The problem is that it is hard for referees to judge in real time. The refs aren't dummies, they aren't seeing all the TV angles and slo-mo that we are.

What do you want the NFL to do differently? Some seem to want the old days before pussification. But pussification is here to stay, football has to protect players health in order to survive.

Maybe we could have refs in the booth validate these difficult roughing calls by examining TV, like college does with targeting. Not a dumb idea, if I must say so myself.


I think that's a good take. I assume they look at replay to determine whether or not to remove a player after a helmet to helmet hit, so why not review roughing the passer calls. That way it's not just up to the ref who only saw it once in real time. Better to get it right.


The other thing you could do is make it eligible for a coaches challenge. The spot of the ball is an interpretation by the officials, and in my estimation, so is roughing. If McCarthy can challenge, and someone watching video replay has a look at the play, then they are allowed to disagree with the original refs interpretation. Sometimes I think refs defend the original call after the fact just to keep up their defense of the call. Also, some refs defend other refs out of a brotherhood mentality. If it's brutally wrong, why defend it? You can be all "big picture" and say the Packers blew other chances to salt the game away, and you'd be right. There were other questionable calls as others have mentioned, but when all was said and done in the game, at that moment, that call gave the Vikings an opportunity they did not deserve.

[Rutnstrut]

Spot on. These kinds of rule changes only make the QB more valuable.

Not quite. Part of any players argument for getting paid the amounts they do is the risk of injury. At the rate the NFL is going with the QB protection bubble. There will be no risk of injury. Therefore they should be paid like a kicker.

[MadScientist]

Not quite. Part of any players argument for getting paid the amounts they do is the risk of injury. At the rate the NFL is going with the QB protection bubble. There will be no risk of injury. Therefore they should be paid like a kicker.

Not really. The pay scale is based on how much value they add to the team. If they got injured more frequently they would get paid less because they would be expected to miss several games.

Star QBs also draw interest to the league, so it's in the league's best interests to keep them healthy. However it the protections get to be stupid, that will hurt interest in the league.

[pbmax]

Injury risk is part of the calculation, but not the major one in terms of total compensation. The replaceability of the player and their position do the most work in determining the pay level.

[red]

neither mathews or kendricks were fined for their hits. which means the NFL is completely full of shit when they tell us that they were textbook penalties. both would have been fined if the calls were correct

so the NFL is trying to have it both ways with the terrible new rule

[Harlan Huckleby]

I imagine if the NFL fined Matthews for that ridiculous call it would open up a fight with the players union.

It is back to the drawing board time.

[red]

I imagine if the NFL fined Matthews for that ridiculous call it would open up a fight with the players union.

It is back to the drawing board time.

yup, they gotta scrap that rule or rating will begin to really tank

[pbmax]

Most common flags don't draw fines. A bigger indication that the League was posturing is that Wilde reported the teaching highlight tape for this week does not contain either the Matthews or Kendricks hit.

[Rutnstrut]

Injury risk is part of the calculation, but not the major one in terms of total compensation. The replaceability of the player and their position do the most work in determining the pay level.

football players argue all the time that they are one play away from a career ending injury as one reason they are highly paid. QB's especially play this card. If the risk is minimized, and that's the direction it's going. Then at least the guaranteed portion of their salary should be greatly reduced.

[pbmax]

football players argue all the time that they are one play away from a career ending injury as one reason they are highly paid. QB's especially play this card. If the risk is minimized, and that's the direction it's going. Then at least the guaranteed portion of their salary should be greatly reduced.

As long as the footage of Charles Martin exists and Anthony Barr is on the field, QBs remain one play away from being done.

But that is still an argument for fully guaranteed contracts or large amounts of upfront money. Not an argument for higher pay.

The revenue generated determines the level of pay. Always has.

[pbmax]

Most common flags don't draw fines. A bigger indication that the League was posturing is that Wilde reported the teaching highlight tape for this week does not contain either the Matthews or Kendricks hit.

I have been misinformed:

Jason Wilde:
Was told tonight that the video the #NFL sends us each week isn’t the same as what it sends teams. The Minnesota-Green Bay roughing the passer plays were sent to the clubs on Monday of this week with an explanation of why those plays were officiated correctly.

[mraynrand]

I have been misinformed:

Jason Wilde:
Was told tonight that the video the #NFL sends us each week isn’t the same as what it sends teams. The Minnesota-Green Bay roughing the passer plays were sent to the clubs on Monday of this week with an explanation of why those plays were officiated correctly.

GFY NFL