Bob McGinn blasts Thompson for guard decisions

[motife]

Packers slowly sink while treading water at guard
Posted: Sept. 9, 2006
On the Packers
Bob McGinn

Green Bay - Asking a boy to do a man's job usually doesn't work, particularly in the National Football League. That's essentially what Ted Thompson is trying to get away once again in Green Bay.

A year ago, the general manager sent out rookie Will Whitticker to start at right guard and basically watched him get eaten alive.

Now Thompson's back at it again. Only this time, he's shuffled the cards and come out with not one but two rookie starters at guard.

This isn't a knock on either left guard Jason Spitz or right guard Tony Moll. You've got to like their spunk. In time, they might be good players.

But this is not their time nor is this is the moment. One rookie starting guard? Maybe. But not two, and certainly not with an immortal standing in the pocket just hoping to go out with a measure of success.


The NFC North is a mean, mean place to set up with a playpen in the middle of an offensive line. Thompson doesn't need anyone reminding him that Detroit's Shaun Rogers, the Williams' (Kevin and Pat) in Minnesota and the three Bears of Chicago - Tommie Harris, Ian Scott and Tank Johnson - make up the most feared collection of defensive tackles in any division.

Or maybe he does.

Thompson's decision not to keep Mike Wahle was catastrophic. He was worth his weight in gold. If Thompson didn't see it that way, and obviously he didn't, then it was incumbent upon him in the last 20 months to find a suitable replacement.

In 2005, Thompson selected Adrian Klemm and Matt O'Dwyer in free agency and Junius Coston and Whitticker in the draft. Thompson's veteran acquisitions were so horrible that he didn't even attempt to go that route in '06, placing the fate of the position and possibly the entire offense on draftees Daryn Colledge, Spitz and Moll.

Colledge, a left tackle, was an abject failure at guard and might not be able to succeed at tackle. Spitz and Moll, who had never played guard in his life until being moved there four weeks ago, have done the best they could.

One personnel man who has looked at the Packers in all four exhibition games sees trouble dead ahead.

"I don't think they're any better at guard right now than they were last year," the scout said. "Why is this team going to be any better?"

Because Ted Thompson says so? Because Jason Spitz and Tony Moll are good guys who promise to try hard? Because line coaches Joe Philbin and James Campen are capable teachers?

Judged by outward appearances, Thompson doesn't have a care in the world. Say this for the man. He is consistent.

The Packers' depth chart has a certain symmetry to it, with rookies backed up by rookies. Chris White, Tony Palmer, Colledge and Coston have a total of 92 years on planet Earth and their total of regular-season snaps is three (by Coston).

Of the 64 projected starting guards in the league, just 13 are new to their teams. Seven were free agents, including Steve Hutchinson in Minnesota, Bennie Anderson in Miami, Tutan Reyes in Buffalo, Kyle Kosier in Dallas, Ross Verba in Detroit, Milford Brown in Arizona and Larry Allen in San Francisco.

There are five rookies starting, including Tampa Bay's Davin Joseph (23rd overall pick), Oakland's Paul McQuistan (69), Spitz (75), New Orleans' Jahri Evans (108) and Moll (165). And Minnesota's Artis Hicks arrived via trade from Philadelphia.

Lack of moves hurts
The Packers have had tons of salary cap room for a year. Nothing was stopping them other than maybe Thompson's friendship with Mike Holmgren from putting together that unfriendly mega-offer to Hutchinson a la the Vikings. He's the only new starting guard that is a lead-pipe cinch. Of the others, probably half will do the job, at least on a stopgap basis.

Look at Miami. First, the Dolphins signed Anderson on June 15, six days after he was cut by Buffalo. Then, after losing starting interior lineman Seth McKinney to neck surgery last month, coach Nick Saban signed guard Kendyl Jacox on Sept. 3. Jacox, 31, has 85 starts for San Diego and New Orleans but was on the street rehabilitating from injury.

Some of the guards wouldn't suit the bulk of the Packers' new run game. But don't they all have to pass protect first? Fitting linemen to a system often is overrated.

Thompson waited until the cupboard was bare and camps had opened before deciding to add some veteran bodies. Once again, he struck out with Michael Moore, Tupe Peko and Todd Williams.

Despite facing a grim situation at guard since the day of his hiring, Thompson hasn't traded for a single offensive lineman.

Thompson's conservative nature remains startling given the fact he was at Ron Wolf's knee for all those years when his mentor never stopped making moves.

When Wolf took over as GM in late 1991, he inherited a starting offensive line with plenty of holes. From left to right, the starters were Ken Ruettgers, Rich Moran, Campen, Ron Hallstrom and Tony Mandarich. Over the next few years, Wolf used every means at his disposal to ensure that the unit remained competitive.

Wolf once said, "I'll never put stumblebums in front of Brett Favre."

Despite a litany of misfortune, the offensive line never ruined a season as much as overmatched guards contributed to the ruination of the Packers in 2005.

Wolf was a busy man
Wolf's first move, 10 days before trading for Favre, was to deal a sixth-round pick to Phoenix for aging right tackle Tootie Robbins. Only Ruettgers would outperform Robbins in 1992.

In mid-March, Wolf signed career long snapper Frank Winters to a Plan B free-agent deal. He also paid good money to re-sign the 33-year-old Hallstrom as a backup.

Mandarich, who was supposed to start at right guard in '92, suffered a concussion early in camp and never played another snap in Green Bay. Feeling a need for another lineman late in camp, he signed 31-year-old Harvey Salem off the street. He had to start in Week 2 at right tackle and held up fine.

Winters started three games for an injured Campen at center and the last eight at left guard when Moran suffered a season-ending knee injury.

In 1993, Wolf signed right guard Harry Galbreath, 28, to a lucrative deal in free agency and longtime Steeler Tunch Ilkin, 35, to back up Ruettgers. The plan was to re-sign Hallstrom as a backup.

But both Ruettgers and Hallstrom held out. Wolf wouldn't be held hostage. He reportedly made a blockbuster offer to the Vikings for all-pro tackle Gary Zimmerman, but the Vikings instead traded him to Denver. So Wolf traded a conditional seventh-rounder to Cleveland on Aug. 4 for eight-year veteran Dan Fike, who after two games at left tackle failed to pass muster and was sent home.

On Aug. 15, Wolf called Hallstrom and told him he was relinquishing his rights. The next day, he re-signed Robbins, who had been cut by New Orleans.

On Aug. 23, Wolf happened to be on the phone with Denver GM Bob Ferguson. Unbeknown to Wolf, the Broncos wanted to trade guard Doug Widell, 26, who had started 58 straight games.

"He wanted to know if we would have an interest (in Widell)," Wolf said the next day. "I said, 'Yes. Consider it done.' " The cost was a seventh-round pick.

Talk about adversity. Ruettgers' holdout lasted 45 days. Moran's knees went in August and he was able to start just three games. Campen suffered a career-ending hamstring injury in Week 4. Robbins blew out his triceps in Week 12 and had to retire.

Winters replaced Moran at left guard during the first month. When Campen was lost, Winters moved to center and started for the next 7 1/2 years. When Moran's career ended in Week 8, Widell did OK as the starting left guard through the playoffs. Youngster Joe Sims started seven games for Robbins and was decent.

Wolf went for the long-term fix in 1994 by taking guard Aaron Taylor in the first round. In June, Taylor blew out his knee.

No, Wolf didn't go with some stumblebum in front of Favre. On the eve of camp he signed 33-year-old Guy McIntyre, whom the 49ers had given up on. McIntyre was good for 12 solid starts, and when he was injured Wolf had 30-year-old Jamie Dukes at center so Winters could move to guard.

And, of course, the Packers never would have won the Super Bowl if Wolf hadn't signed 31-year-old tackle Bruce Wilkerson on April 19, 1996. When top pick John Michels flopped and Ruettgers decided to retire at midseason, Wilkinson was there to protect Favre's blindside in the playoffs.

Quantity, not quality
This is the Packers' youngest team in 20 years, but Forrest Gregg's 4-12 in 1986 was so much more futile than Mike Sherman's 4-12 last season. Gregg's youth movement knew no boundaries.

Thompson's urge to change is reflected by the fact an astonishing 33 of the 53 players were acquired during his relatively brief watch. However, the club's five most important players were acquired by Wolf, who has been retired for 5 1/2 years, and three of the next five were brought in by Sherman.

Unlike Wolf, Thompson appears wedded to the draft. It takes an abundance of talent, nerve and energy to operate as did Wolf. Thompson watched it all unfold.

Nobody in the NFL ever has cornered the market on how to build a team or come up with starting guards. All that counts is getting it done.

[Bretsky]

For those who have read my rants, I'd again like to point out that I am NOT Bob McGinn; but his article has summed up my strong views on this forum the past three months, and last year, regarding our OL situation.

Bretsky

[Oscar]

I thought of some of your rants when I read the article B. I think T.T. should have made a push for at least one vet. at the guard possition. I guess we find out a lil later today how well these young men are gonna hold up. For Brett's sake.. I hope they prove us all wrong and have a strong game.

[Favre4]

I'll disagree. Some of you think the only way to fix the guard situation is to give a guy 50 million.

If you look at some teams such as the Patriots, Falcolns, Denvers super bowl teams, who were all these stud guards they had?


Klemm was more talented than alot of the vet retreads mentioned in the article. He just didn't work out. Whittacker showed some talent and they gave him a chance, again didn't work out. TT had a tough situation with inheriting no good young offensive lineman, other than Wells.

I have no doubt in my mind that Spitz is a good player. He is one they finnaly got right. Moll takes his lumps and makes some mistakes but is a real battler.

Offensive line is all about cohesion. Just because Whattacker and Klemm regressed as the season went on, doesen't mean that will happen again. If anything Spitz and Moll will improve as the season goes on.

[Bretsky]

I'll disagree. Some of you think the only way to fix the guard situation is to give a guy 50 million.

If you look at some teams such as the Patriots, Falcolns, Denvers super bowl teams, who were all these stud guards they had?


Klemm was more talented than alot of the vet retreads mentioned in the article. He just didn't work out. Whittacker showed some talent and they gave him a chance, again didn't work out. TT had a tough situation with inheriting no good young offensive lineman, other than Wells.

I have no doubt in my mind that Spitz is a good player. He is one they finnaly got right. Moll takes his lumps and makes some mistakes but is a real battler.

Offensive line is all about cohesion. Just because Whattacker and Klemm regressed as the season went on, doesen't mean that will happen again. If anything Spitz and Moll will improve as the season goes on.

We did NOT need to give a guard 50MIL

We did need to find some veteran starting help

To go into a season with two rookie guards and a new starting center while we sit on 7MIL in cap space and frontload contracts to use it up is startling to be nice about it. We probably have one of the lower OL units in football.

I agree both rookies will improve; let them improve under an adequate starter.

[Bretsky]

Another thing; Denver, the Falcons, and the Patriots have decent players at the OL position. 3 new starters, two of which are rookies...they've never had.

Getting ready to go to the game and the thought of the Bears D manhandling our OL scares me; I sure hope I'm wrong.

B

[Patler]

McGinn conveniently overlooks the fact that Wolf himself said one of the reasons he retired as GM was that it had become increasingly more difficult to go out and "fix your team" when you needed to, and he specifically said that trades had become virtually impossible to pull off.

Those wonderful O-lines that Wolf put together gave up an AVERAGE of 33 sacks in the 9 years from 1992 to 2000, and had only one year in which they gave up less than 30. In 1996 they gave up 40 sacks! In 2005, Favre was sacked only 24 times, even though he attempted more passes than anytime during the Wolf years.

Wolf changed a guard almost every year, and time after time refused to pay significant money to guards. McGinn mentioned that Wolf refused to pay Hallstrom. He neglected to mention that he also let Aaron Taylor and Adam Timmerman walk away in free agency when the offers became more than what he wanted to pay a guard. How does that differ from TT letting Wahle go? For the most part Wolf used bargain basement salary guards.

The problem is that people's memories are short. They want to compare the line to what GB had the few previous years, which was really quite exceptional. People have forgotten that through out the 1990s the biggest weakness on the Packers was the O-line, which many experts characterized year after year as not being of championship calibre.

Wolf also had the advantage of luring free agents to a team with a young star QB and a team clearly on the rise or near the top. TT inherited a team with a QB nearing the end of his career, who could retire at any time, and a team on the decline.

[mmmdk]

The attitude coming from HC McCarthy, OC Jagodzinski & OLC Philbin is that "we'll go with what we have". I just don't like the sound of that. Everybody knows that NFL games are won or lost in the trenches. I'm not a TT basher but he's really playing russian roulette with our offense. If Moll & Spitz, or even Colledge, pan out then he's genius. Odds are not good though. Favre must dink and dunk plus some fast releases. Favre can do it. But if there's no run game then Quinn will be a Packer next season.

[MJZiggy]

McGinn conveniently overlooks the fact that Wolf himself said one of the reasons he retired as GM was that it had become increasingly more difficult to go out and "fix your team" when you needed to, and he specifically said that trades had become virtually impossible to pull off.

Those wonderful O-lines that Wolf put together gave up an AVERAGE of 33 sacks in the 9 years from 1992 to 2000, and had only one year in which they gave up less than 30. In 1996 they gave up 40 sacks! In 2005, Favre was sacked only 24 times, even though he attempted more passes than anytime during the Wolf years.

Wolf changed a guard almost every year, and time after time refused to pay significant money to guards. McGinn mentioned that Wolf refused to pay Hallstrom. He neglected to mention that he also let Aaron Taylor and Adam Timmerman walk away in free agency when the offers became more than what he wanted to pay a guard. How does that differ from TT letting Wahle go? For the most part Wolf used bargain basement salary guards.

The problem is that people's memories are short. They want to compare the line to what GB had the few previous years, which was really quite exceptional. People have forgotten that through out the 1990s the biggest weakness on the Packers was the O-line, which many experts characterized year after year as not being of championship calibre.

Wolf also had the advantage of luring free agents to a team with a young star QB and a team clearly on the rise or near the top. TT inherited a team with a QB nearing the end of his career, who could retire at any time, and a team on the decline.
:bow:

[Patler]

At some point someone needs to point out that both Wolf and Sherman failed miserably in restocking the team for a second Super Bowl run with Favre. Favre took them to the SB when he was 27 and 28. The team was a solid group. Why did they never return to seriously challenge again after their brief rise to the top of the NFC in the mid '90s? There was a huge window of opportunity with an MVP QB not even yet in his prime years for most QBs.

Wolf was good and returned GB to prominence, but he failed to maintain it. Their time at the top was really quite brief, in spite of having a HOF quarterback.

[Bretsky]

McGinn conveniently overlooks the fact that Wolf himself said one of the reasons he retired as GM was that it had become increasingly more difficult to go out and "fix your team" when you needed to, and he specifically said that trades had become virtually impossible to pull off.

Those wonderful O-lines that Wolf put together gave up an AVERAGE of 33 sacks in the 9 years from 1992 to 2000, and had only one year in which they gave up less than 30. In 1996 they gave up 40 sacks! In 2005, Favre was sacked only 24 times, even though he attempted more passes than anytime during the Wolf years.

Wolf changed a guard almost every year, and time after time refused to pay significant money to guards. McGinn mentioned that Wolf refused to pay Hallstrom. He neglected to mention that he also let Aaron Taylor and Adam Timmerman walk away in free agency when the offers became more than what he wanted to pay a guard. How does that differ from TT letting Wahle go? For the most part Wolf used bargain basement salary guards.

The problem is that people's memories are short. They want to compare the line to what GB had the few previous years, which was really quite exceptional. People have forgotten that through out the 1990s the biggest weakness on the Packers was the O-line, which many experts characterized year after year as not being of championship calibre.

Wolf also had the advantage of luring free agents to a team with a young star QB and a team clearly on the rise or near the top. TT inherited a team with a QB nearing the end of his career, who could retire at any time, and a team on the decline.

How does that differ ? Well, I think there's an obvious difference. Wolf had restacked through the draft and I think he had some confidence in the backups. When Teddy let Wahle fly he had nothing behind him.

[mmmdk]

McGinn conveniently overlooks the fact that Wolf himself said one of the reasons he retired as GM was that it had become increasingly more difficult to go out and "fix your team" when you needed to, and he specifically said that trades had become virtually impossible to pull off.

Those wonderful O-lines that Wolf put together gave up an AVERAGE of 33 sacks in the 9 years from 1992 to 2000, and had only one year in which they gave up less than 30. In 1996 they gave up 40 sacks! In 2005, Favre was sacked only 24 times, even though he attempted more passes than anytime during the Wolf years.

Wolf changed a guard almost every year, and time after time refused to pay significant money to guards. McGinn mentioned that Wolf refused to pay Hallstrom. He neglected to mention that he also let Aaron Taylor and Adam Timmerman walk away in free agency when the offers became more than what he wanted to pay a guard. How does that differ from TT letting Wahle go? For the most part Wolf used bargain basement salary guards.

The problem is that people's memories are short. They want to compare the line to what GB had the few previous years, which was really quite exceptional. People have forgotten that through out the 1990s the biggest weakness on the Packers was the O-line, which many experts characterized year after year as not being of championship calibre.

Wolf also had the advantage of luring free agents to a team with a young star QB and a team clearly on the rise or near the top. TT inherited a team with a QB nearing the end of his career, who could retire at any time, and a team on the decline.

Pretty good points but why be a Wolf clone on guards? Shouldn't TT know that the game for FAs has changed? Who deserves money then, other than QBs and CBs, in TTs world?

[Patler]

First, it wasn't TT's fault that there was nothing behind Wahle and Rivera, that's clearly on Sherman's shoulders.

Second, at the time, TT was really hamstrung by the salary cap. Believe it or not, one of the biggest obstacles to re-signing Rivera or re-negotiating with Wahle was Darren Sharper. Sharper's contract was the only one that had a potential for significant immediate cap relief, and he refused to deal with the Packers. It's easy to say now that TT "should have found a way" to re-sign Wahle. It reminds me of my kids when they were very young and wanted some expensive item. When I tried to explain the cost issue, they procliamed, "But I WANT it!"

TT should have found a way "Because we WANTED Mike Wahle!" :mrgreen:

[Joemailman]

It's hard to know how Moll and Spitz will turn out. All I can say is, Thompson needs to be right about what he has done with the guard situation. If, 2 years from now, we're still having this same conversation, it is Thompson's job that will be on the line. Keep in mind that the guy who hired Thompson (Harlan) is retiring. We don't really know how Jones feels about Ted Thompson.

[Patler]

It's hard to know how Moll and Spitz will turn out. All I can say is, Thompson needs to be right about what he has done with the guard situation. If, 2 years from now, we're still having this same conversation, it is Thompson's job that will be on the line. Keep in mind that the guy who hired Thompson (Harlan) is retiring. We don't really know how Jones feels about Ted Thompson.

I agree with that. He should be held accountable for his performance after 4 seasons. But even more than the guards, I think his future depends on having been right about Aaron Rodgers being at least a competant starting QB.

[Packnut]

AS hard as I try, I just don't understand the attitude that some of you have. You keep making excuses for TT's FAILURE to fix the O line problem. Don't you guys get the fact that it is HIS job and that's what he gets paid for.

Where is it written that it's ok for him to make mistakes that lead to the failure of our team to protect the QB? Why is there this attitude since he brought in rookies to start that he deserves time to find out if these guys can get better 2 or 3 yrs from now?

That is not how it works. The rookies are suppossed to be on the bench LEARNING, not getting on the job training. TT has failed dramatically at replacing Wahle and Rivera. The two clowns he brought in last season SUCKED and each and every one of you know that.

He had the money and the draft picks to make some kind of move to at least bring in 1 lousy vet to help us out. What you guys fail to comprehend is that the route TT is going is the SAFE one for him, yet the most painfull one for the fans. This way, he has a "fail-safe" built in. "We need to give the rookies time" is gonna be his excuse.

He need's to be held accountable for his failure with the O line, not given a free pass. Like I said, it's HIS JOB and he gets paid very well for it!

[MJZiggy]

He had the money and the draft picks to make some kind of move to at least bring in 1 lousy vet to help us out.

He brought in teh requisite vet last year and it didn't work out so well. Which retread would you have had him bring this year. He had the money and the draft picks. He used the draft picks. Can we PLEASE see how these kids hold their own before we deem them failures? I'm not asking for 5 seasons, but regular season game or two would be nice...

[Patler]

Well, one of the issues is the team has so many problems that you can't expect to have all of them fixed immediately.

The second is that the line was not as bad in pass protection last year as some suggest it was. By the end of the season, they began to show some life in the running game.

The biggest downside in my mind is that they are starting over this season, for all five players, with a new scheme. I expect a LOT of inconsistency the first half of the season.

[red]

wow great article. i couldn't agree more with it

but then patler comes along with that brain of his, throwing out facts and numbers left and right, and starts to blow the whole theory to hell

still though, i agree with the heart of the article. there were quite a few guards out there that had starts before that were available. we wouldn't have had to give up 50 million to get one of these guys. and i would be alot more comfortable right now with an average nfl guard starting the season for us, as opposed to 2 rookies thay might be good someday, but are still just rookies now.

to put it simply, i would rather have klemm and o'dwyer starting at the guard spots instead of two rookies

now for the fun, i get to try and shoot down one of the masters ideas. only to have it probably blow up in my face later on

patler you said that brett was only sacked 25 times last year, and during the teams peak he was getting sacked between 30 and 40 times. last year brett was scared sh'tless from that line and was being forced to throw before he was ready and was forced into a lot mistakes. did the sack numbers go down because the line was decent, or was it because brett was getting rid of the ball right before getting killed? despite the low number of sacks, that line was very bad last year, and you know as well as i, that the number of hurries and knockdowns were way up last year

[Patler]

I agree Red, it would be nice with at least one veteran guard. Unfortunately, sometimes things don't work the way you want it. There was much trepidation a few years back with two rookie tackles, too, but the situation was what it was, and luckily for the Packers it worked out. I'm sure Wolf would have preferred a vet or two at tackle that year. Unfortunately, it is not likely to work out as well again this year. The Packers were extremely lucky to have two rookies who took off as quickly as Clifton and Tauscher did. To have one would be great, two is asking a lot.

Klemm was the biggest disappointment. While no one suggested he would be an elite guard, most felt he was a good value. I remember a quote from one scout who said Brett Favre would "love Klemm" because of his pass protection ability, even though he was soft in the running game.

[Joemailman]

Red,

I was pretty much with you until the last sentence. I'll take the rookies over Klemm and O'Dwyer because at least I have some hope that the rookies will get better.

It is also important to remember that it's not just the guards who have struggles in the pre-season. Tauscher and Clifton had their problems too. The Ol will need learn to function as a unit before we can really judge what we have here.

[Scott Campbell]

Thompson's decision not to keep Mike Wahle was catastrophic. He was worth his weight in gold. [/b]



If all it required to keep Wahle was to pay him his weight in gold, he'd still be here. He got roughly 10 times his weight in gold.

Do the math McGinn.

[red]

Red,

I was pretty much with you until the last sentence. I'll take the rookies over Klemm and O'Dwyer because at least I have some hope that the rookies will get better.

It is also important to remember that it's not just the guards who have struggles in the pre-season. Tauscher and Clifton had their problems too. The Ol will need learn to function as a unit before we can really judge what we have here.

this brings up an interesting question that was brought up a lot last year. clifton, tauch, and flanny all had times last year when they didn't look that great

the question was always asked, are those guys getting worse, or are they looking worse because they are having to make up for the poor play of the guards?

ithere should be no doubt that when lines play together for long periods, the whole unit looks and plays better.

so the opposite could be said too, a team that hasn't been together long and has all three middle spots with no real experience. they could bring the other two vet guys down

[Patler]

patler you said that brett was only sacked 25 times last year, and during the teams peak he was getting sacked between 30 and 40 times. last year brett was scared sh'tless from that line and was being forced to throw before he was ready and was forced into a lot mistakes. did the sack numbers go down because the line was decent, or was it because brett was getting rid of the ball right before getting killed? despite the low number of sacks, that line was very bad last year, and you know as well as i, that the number of hurries and knockdowns were way up last year

Of course the number of hurries and knochdowns were up last year. You are comparing to a line in 2003 and 2004 that was truly exceptional in pass protection, a line that almost broke the all-time NFL record for fewest sacks allowed.

I don't discount the possibility that Favre avoided sacks last year, but Favre has always done so with his arm and his legs. He has done so his entire career, not just last year. Favre's "rushing attempts" in previous years were mostly to avoid pressure. They were rarely designed runs. Early in his career he would have 40, 50 or more "runs" each year In 1996, in addition to the 40 sacks, he had 49 "rushing attempts" for a mere 2.8 yard average. I would dare to guess most of those were breakdowns in the passing game. Last year he had only 18. Perhaps he should have had a few more "rushing attempts" instead of the interceptions he threw. I think it is obvious that he is less willing to be hit than he was early in his career.

My whole point is that the lines Wolf put together inthe '90s weren't all that great. The line wasn't a stellar one until after Wolf left, although he was the one responsible for all of the players in that fantastic group of Clifton, Wahle, Flanagan, Rivera and Tauscher..

[Packnut]

There are 2 under-lying points that need to be made. The 1st is that I don't thing it's pre-mature to judge our line without a game being played. There is a reason why rookie O lineman for the most part do not start in the NFL unless they are a 1st round pick. To think that our 2 guys are going to be the exception to the rule is un-realistic and is contrary to what history has shown us.

The 2nd is a much more dangerous concept and that is TT's philosophical views on paying lineman. That is an old school out-dated view as the smart GM's have realized that the O line is very important to a teams success. This is what scares the hell out of me about TT and it should worry every Packer fan. This veil of silence that surrounds him is mind-boggling to me. I think it's great that at least a few writers do hold him accountable since when asked, TT always does the 2 step and avoids any answers.

And in answer to the question about what he was suppossed to have done and who he should have brought in. Again, this goes back to my point about it being his damn job to have found someone or made some kind of deal. This after all is what he gets paid for.

[red]

great point made in that last line packnut

it is his job, and as it stands right now, i am not confident that he did everything in his power to get the best o-line he could on the field for this year or last

its like theres no sence of urgency with him. we have an o-line with no experience that hasn't looked good in preseason. TT- oh don't worry we'll be fine

we have only 4 wr's on the roster and if one goes down in the game, we're f$%ked. TT- oh its fine, we're alright there

we have 3.5 cb's for the game today. TT- its ok, things will work out

he's like a stoned hippie

just relax man, things will work out. its all cool

well they sure as hell didn't work out last year

[b bulldog]

Good read but wasn't Wolf the man who picked John Micheals???

[Packnut]

great point made in that last line packnut

it is his job, and as it stands right now, i am not confident that he did everything in his power to get the best o-line he could on the field for this year or last

its like theres no sence of urgency with him. we have an o-line with no experience that hasn't looked good in preseason. TT- oh don't worry we'll be fine

we have only 4 wr's on the roster and if one goes down in the game, we're f$%ked. TT- oh its fine, we're alright there

we have 3.5 cb's for the game today. TT- its ok, things will work out

he's like a stoned hippie

just relax man, things will work out. its all cool

well they sure as hell didn't work out last year


red- my biggest hope is that TT is a genious and all of you will be telling me what a moron I am a few weeks from now.

[red]

red- my biggest hope is that TT is a genious and all of you will be telling me what a moron I am a few weeks from now.

i think we all hope that TT proves to be the genious that some of us don't think he is.

i would be more then happy to be proven wrong

[Patler]

we have only 4 wr's on the roster and if one goes down in the game, we're f$%ked. TT- oh its fine, we're alright there

we have 3.5 cb's for the game today. TT- its ok, things will work out


Sherman played a year with only 4 WRs too. Besides, it is fairly common to have only 4 active on game day. The 5th one doesn't do much good if he is inactive.

Same with the CBs. Typical game day roster is to have 4. The 5th is usually inactive, and doesn't do you any good that day.

The only benefit to a 5th WR or CBis to have one ready to go next week if one of the first 4 is out with an injury, but TT has protected himself pretty well. TT has his "next best alternatives" on the practice squad, with two WRs (Francies and Russell), a CB (Dendy)and a safety (Bigby) all who have been with the team through training camp. He will simply sign one of them to the active roster when injuries occur.

The 4 WRs and "3.5" CBs are nonissues today, and remain a nonissue until one of them is out to start the game.

[red]

The 4 WRs and "3.5" CBs are nonissues today, and remain a nonissue until one of them is out to start the game.

well that makes me feel a lot better

is blackmon playing today, have we heard?

[motife]

Of course the number of hurries and knochdowns were up last year. You are comparing to a line in 2003 and 2004 that was truly exceptional in pass protection, a line that almost broke the all-time NFL record for fewest sacks allowed.


From Bob McGinn in January '06 :

With Wahle and Rivera as the starting guards, the pair allowed these "pressures" :

'04 : 23
'03 : 18
'02 : 18 1/2
'01 : 22

With Will Whitticker, Adrian Klemm and Wells playing those positions in '05, the guards alone yielded :

'05 : 69

WILL WHITTICKER
Overmatched from the get-go. He is massive and, on occasion, was able to use bulk to engulf defenders. But body size at times was his worst enemy. He had a tendency to play high, which leads to all kinds of problems. He's a slower reactor without quick-twitch movement ability. He was forever late getting out on linebackers and labored badly in the open field. He led the team in "pressures" allowed with 30 1/2, most by any Packer from 1999-2005, and tied for the team lead in "bad" runs with 12 1/2. The lumbering Whitticker was so bad on occasion that it must have been painful for the coaches to watch. He did try hard. If he did improve, it was marginally. Committed seven penalties, all false starts.
F

ADRIAN KLEMM
Not a lot different from Wahle in terms of height, weight and speed but possessed almost none of his toughness, awareness and functional athletic ability. Too soft and unsure of himself both in protection and as an in-line run blocker. Inconsistent and ineffective on the move. The Patriots haven't made many drafting mistakes in the last six years, but taking Klemm with a second-round pick in 2000 probably ranks at top of the list. You don't need to pay $800,000 signing bonuses when players like this are available on the street. Committed six penalties (three holds, two false starts, one facemask).
F

SCOTT WELLS
Klemm's collapse forced Wells to start the last eight games at left guard, where the club found out that he has to be a center. At guard, it's too easy for behemoths to match up against Wells and go right over the top. Wells' overall strength and flat-footed style of blocking are impressive, but there's a limit at his size on just how much force he can withstand. Was second on the club in number of "pressures" allowed with 22 1/2 despite starting just 10 games. Still makes a surprising number of mistakes. Committed six penalties (five holds, one false start).
D

RUSHING OFFENSE
After ranking 10th in 2004 (119.3-yard average) and third in '03 (club-record 159.9), the ground game plummeted to 30th (84.5). That was the team's worst ranking since the '77 squad finished 27th in a 28-team league. Despite the departure of guards Mike Wahle and Marco Rivera, the brain trust tried to run the same scheme only to discover after two months or so that replacements Adrian Klemm, Will Whitticker, Scott Wells and Grey Ruegamer couldn't measure up. In the first six weeks before Ahman Green and Najeh Davenport were injured, the rushing averages were 72.3 per game and 3.06 per carry. In 10 games with Gado, Tony Fisher and Noah Herron toting the leather, the averages were 91.8 and 3.59.

Not only were the guards inferior but fullback William Henderson, tight end Bubba Franks, center Mike Flanagan and left tackle Chad Clifton fell off as drive blockers. Given almost no alternative, Mike Sherman rushed on only 37.9% of plays, the team's second-lowest run ratio since 1990. Average per carry of 3.4 ranked ahead of only Arizona (3.16). Sherman claimed all summer that the ground game would come around. It never did.
F

[Patler]

To me, the really interesting thing is if you read the season recaps for Rivera and Wahle early in their careers, each was considered the weak link on the line at the time, and the lines weren't great either..

There was a particularly scathing one in the Milwaukee J/S, as I recall, after Rivera's first year as a starter that openly questioned whther the Packers could live with him as a starter. As I recall he was credited with close to 40 "pressures" by himself that year. Wahle of course was in and out of the lineup for 3 years before becoming established.

Thre is a lot to be said for experience, both individually and collectively in the O-line.

[KYPack]

You take McGinn's column (&B's rants), multiply it 1000 times and post it on here for my reply.

A sucessful NFL franchise can NOT be in the position we are in. Two rookie starting guards and another rookie for back-up.

If Thompson doesn't learn how to run the Vet FA market, he won't be our GM that much longer. Our line is entering it's second year of ineptitiude. We gotta get some talent ijn here irf we are gonna win. Our kids ain't gonna be grown for a few years, in the meantime, we're in a world of hurt!.

Where are the vets we need to fill out the roster?

[Harlan Huckleby]

I agree with McGinn & Bretsky. But I don't like McGinn's opportunism by publishing this article on the day that the new guards are likely to be embarassed by the Bears outstanding D line. It hope the guards hold-up today, against all odds, and make McGinn look foolish.

[Patler]

There is always hope. No one in their right minds would think you could have a successful season with two rookie tackles either, but it worked. Maybe GB can get lucky twice!

I'll be happy if they are just better than last year at guard. Spitz and Moll don't have to perform as well as Clifton and Tauscher did as rookies at tackle.

[motife]

I agree with McGinn & Bretsky. But I don't like McGinn's opportunism by publishing this article on the day that the new guards are likely to be embarassed by the Bears outstanding D line. It hope the guards hold-up today, against all odds, and make McGinn look foolish.

The article is an indictment not of Jason Spitz and Tony Moll, who both look like promising prospects on paper, but of Ted Thompson, of whom McGinn writes, "judged by outward appearances ... doesn't have a care in the world."

I keep thinking of Ron Wolf's faint praise of Thompson : "He has a lot more patience than I do."

"Against all odds" though, I always think we're going to win before the game starts.

Unless we're in a dome, and I see that "I just swallowed a toad" somber look on Favre's face during the pre-game warmup.

[motife]

Who all would feel more comfortable going into this game with Jim Bates as Head Coach?

What he did with the defense last year was a miracle, solidifying its scheme, getting more effort than anyone could have ever expected out of the talent he had, and with a track record that inspired confidence in both player and fan alike?

However, please note : Everyone be sure to read the other Bob McGinn article today in a coversation with Mike McCarthy on the running game. It's the most revealing, impressive interview I've heard with McCarthy yet. Too bad we don't have Ricky Williams or Deuce McCallister though. Let alone, Joe Horn and Donte Stallworth :

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=494152
and this one :

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=492900

There may be hope yet.

McCarthy's most interesting comment is most defenses play at a 4.5 40 time during a game. But if they know what you're going to do, i.e. pass, they play at 4.3, 4.4. If you play 50/50 football (actually 46%+ run) they play at a 4.7 speed.

[Packers4Ever]

It's hard to know how Moll and Spitz will turn out. All I can say is, Thompson needs to be right about what he has done with the guard situation. If, 2 years from now, we're still having this same conversation, it is Thompson's job that will be on the line. Keep in mind that the guy who hired Thompson (Harlan) is retiring. We don't really know how Jones feels about Ted Thompson.

Joe, you're right, TT does need to be right about the guard situation and others too but I have a feeling people could be livid well before then.
I'm still on the fence.

[Packers4Ever]

I agree with McGinn & Bretsky. But I don't like McGinn's opportunism by publishing this article on the day that the new guards are likely to be embarassed by the Bears outstanding D line. It hope the guards hold-up today, against all odds, and make McGinn look foolish.

I agree too, Harlan, but McGinn is the biggest putz in local sports' media!
How tacky !! :mad:
Hopefully the new young players come up looking great !

[Kiwon]

For those who have read my rants, I'd again like to point out that I am NOT Bob McGinn; but his article has summed up my strong views on this forum the past three months, and last year, regarding our OL situation.

Bretsky

We have talked about it all off-season. It's no surprise they fall apart on opening day. Sacks, knock downs, pressures, ints., penalties.

Surprise, surprise.

[SkinBasket]

McGinn takes every chance he gets to lay the blame on TT for the guard situation. I have never seen him address how he would have proposed keeping one of the two other than the ambiguous "rework some deals." solution. What a boner.

[MJZiggy]

Hah!!! Shows what McGinn knows. It was the vets that looked like hell tonight, Not the new guards!!

[FritzDontBlitz]

i'm just curious: has anyone ever blamed jags for the sorriness of the o-line? isn't he supposed to be the resident zone blocking guru?

[The Leaper]

The kids showed me something today. Unlike McGinn, I feel 10 times more confident with Moll and Spitz than I ever did with Whitty and Klemm/O'Dwyer/Buttplug. They at least have room for dramatic improvement in the next 8-12 games.

McGinn acts like it is the easiest thing on the planet attracting top tier FAs to Green Bay right now. It took Favre five months to decide to come back...like any major upgrade at OG was going to sign the dotted line to join a 4-12 team. There isn't anyone he could name that was a major upgrade who would've actually come to Green Bay this offseason...especially as Favre waffled.