You're the GM; What's Your Move?

[Smidgeon]

So it's obviously waaay too early to consider the season lost, but there are certainly troubling elements we all (I, at least) expected to be fixed with the introduction of two coordinators.
Initially, I wasn't on the "Fire M3 with the rest!" bandwagon, but I was convinced during the offseason. However, he's already been retained.

So consider yourself Gutenkunst. Consider this post-week 3. The Packers offense is stagnant but has one of the most talented QBs and one of the best (if underused) young RBs in the NFL (highest YPC with at least 85 touches going to beginning of last year). You also have a good #1 receiver (leading the NFL in receiving touchdowns since 2016) and one of the best LTs in the NFL (2 All-Pro selections). On defense, you have a young group of CBs that could eventually be the best in the league and a star on the D Line who's only going to get better.

I like Pettine on the defensive side and think his defense will only get better as its rebuilt in his image. He has already said he doesn't want to be a HC again.

On the offense, this should be M3's last year. The pool of candidates to replace him will be small as it's a requirement his first name is Mike. So either we have to find someone with that name already, or we'll have to convince someone to change his name for consistency's sake.

The replacement should be an offensive specialist to maximize Rodgers, groom Kizer, and pair with Pettine.

But the big question is when do you let M3 go? At the end of the season? At the bye if they can't overcome the stagnation?

What talent do you bring in? They need a safety. So it's either take the lumps with Josh Jones and hope he gets better or bring in someone else. I don't know who all the veterans on the street are (besides Reid, I know about him and would have no issue if that was the choice), so I don't know who is the best choice. It's a tough position because they need help and it isn't the offseason where most improvement can be made.

So what would you do if you had control? When would you fire M3 (assume Murphy backs you on all suggestions), who would you replace him with? Would you require his replacement to keep Pettine? What players would you sign/trade for to help immediately, this season? Who would you cut, and if you cut them, who replaces them?

[mraynrand]

I wouldn’t fire him during the season that’s for sure. That would drive away potential coaches.

Packers will be competing with a lot of teams for next coach, particularly Cleveland which I suspect wil b the choicest spot. (Unless Mayfield plays so lights out that he saves Hue’s job)

Stubby’s problem seems to be an unwillingness or inability to bring in younger innovative offensive minds. As if he’s so confident that he thinks he doesn’t need it or is afraid of getting sacked (legally) in favor of the new guy.

[pbmax]

Redoing coordinators without removing McCarthy was a mistake. His turnover of the coaches was both due and damning. And that mistake leaves you with a possibly untenable position concerning Pettine as he is going to want to be considered for a HC opening.

In hindsight, when McCarthy registered his disappointment with Murphy about coordination with personnel and coordinators (I am guessing mostly Capers because that is my contention, but it also might true for the offensive side) Murphy should have insisted on a fix that did not involve himself. He has no experience in these matters (coordination, head coach, personnel) and thinking he can successfully navigate the different demands is hubris.

My suggestions:

1. Fire McCarthy. Its impossible to accurately separate out individual achievement in football and coaching, but his offense has been in grinding its gears for too long. Its now a happy coincidence when the offense rattles off 4 good games. R-E-L-A-X and run the table are now aberrations. If playoffs aren't in cards, do it Week 10. If playoffs happen, oh well, do what they couldn't do to Mularkey last year. Make the change during regular season and get in on all the top candidates. Don't fall in love with one. But probably hire Monken.

Look at what McVay can do when all he wants to do is run a dive: https://twitter.com/danorlovsky7/status/1044528811579240448

2. Have Gutenkunst hire the next HC. Demand a plan that includes exactly how the needs of the coordinators about players will be met. That plan has to include how the coordinators have to meet the style of the GM, prior to the damn coordinators being hired. Asking Ted to do Belichick would have been disastrous. Much easier to hire a DC who can use young talent.

3. Promise Pettine an interview but not the job. If Murphy and Gute and the veteran players like his system and style, tell him they will go to bat for him with the new coach but the ultimate call is with that coach.

4. Drafting. Forgot about doubling up on positions or a unit. That is draining talent. If Gute is willing to do slightly more FA than Ted, then go back to BPA drafting even in Round 1. The lack of difference makers is alarming. If its truly close, get pass rush as first priority, safety second. LB third especially if Pettine stays.

5. Free Agency. Wilkerson was working OK. But to increase pass rush you will need more than one guy or you must pay that one guy more. I would look for everything but pass rush in FA.

[mraynrand]

To clarify I meant you shouldn’t fire Stubby at the bye. If you have two weeks left and they are out of playoffs, then sure. Pettine could work as head coach with the right offensive guy. But you probably need to get that guy from a playoff team and he will probably be a guy looking to be HC. Fortunately Pettine has claimed he isn’t all that interested in head coaching again. Seemingly.

[pbmax]

4. (con't) More Draft priorities, this time not forgetting the offense:

1. pass rush
2. OT
3. Safety

[Carolina_Packer]

I would wait until the season is over, but secretly be working out my list of replacement candidates. There's nothing to be gained from firing him in season, and it could be bad optics as one person alluded to. He's a long-standing coach. As much as people complain about him, you have to show respect as an organization, which will inform the next person to take the job. The position would get filled regardless of how they handle it, but you never know if the best candidate would take a pass on the job if he didn't like the way Green Bay handled the coaching change. I can't imagine the organization NOT handling it with class, although low-balling Jordy surprised me.

[Tony Oday]

I'd put Devon House on IR

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

I would wait until the season is over, but secretly be working out my list of replacement candidates. There's nothing to be gained from firing him in season, and it could be bad optics as one person alluded to. He's a long-standing coach. As much as people complain about him, you have to show respect as an organization, which will inform the next person to take the job. The position would get filled regardless of how they handle it, but you never know if the best candidate would take a pass on the job if he didn't like the way Green Bay handled the coaching change. I can't imagine the organization NOT handling it with class, although low-balling Jordy surprised me.

I don't know, I wanna believe that a potential new coach would have some old style values but in today's world, I think the new coach would be looking at it for the money/contract and would give a rat's ass how Green Bay handled the coaching change.

I say fire his ass....

[The Shadow]

Fire Joe Whitt - which should have been done long ago. I don't know - but years of secondary 'miscommunications' has gotten old.

[Teamcheez1]

Fire Joe Whitt - which should have been done long ago. I don't know - but years of secondary 'miscommunications' has gotten old.

Is it secondary miscommunications or players inexperience and/or failing to make the play? I feel the secondary has more talent and is playing better (except for Brice) than I have seen in years.

[Tony Oday]

Trade a third and Ha Ha for Earl Thomas. Sign the kneeler Reid. Tell Fat Mike to get Jones more touches.

[KYPack]

If this continues to trend...
Fire MM right after the season.
Goot makes the new hire, new coach builds the staff.

After that, we are back in some uncharted water, but we need to take the plunge.

What if MM makes the play-offs?

Still pull the trigger?

[pbmax]

Fire Joe Whitt - which should have been done long ago. I don't know - but years of secondary 'miscommunications' has gotten old.


Is it secondary miscommunications or players inexperience and/or failing to make the play? I feel the secondary has more talent and is playing better (except for Brice) than I have seen in years.

I debated this in my response and decided against insisting Whitt be gone.

But I have no answers for what is happening at safety. Dix seems to have regressed and he really seems to be thinking about getting hurt and his next deal (hence his absence from OTAs). Brice might simply have these flaws as a deep safety. I am not sure how to judge Whitt with this cast of safeties. He definitely has the CBs paying better, but there is an influx of talent and vets.

[pbmax]

What if MM makes the play-offs?

Still pull the trigger?

I would be stunned if Murphy did that. Really stunned. I would instead expect some drama about the next contract. Maybe he decides to be insulted and leave. But that could be March and all the popular candidates will be gone.

I would prefer in or end of season termination. And I really prefer an offensive side guy who is innovative and leaves the D alone except for game management.

I still think McCarthy has 80-90% of what it takes to coach successfully in this league. He still has the locker room and slow starts aside, the team responds to him. He's pretty proactive on the sports science front. He supports the players publicly even when they are screwing up and he rarely loses them. He brought Woodson around to his way of doing things and had him and Al Harris at minicamps. That's not nothing.

But his calling card is his offense and it looks more and more like it doesn't function without dominant talent.

[Patler]

But his calling card is his offense and it looks more and more like it doesn't function without dominant talent.

It seems to be getting even worse. They struggle with average performances by Rodgers, even though his average may be higher than the common QB's. He needs to be at the top of his game, even against mediocre teams. There was a time when RBs and WRs were brought in off the street because of injuries, and the offense didn't seem to skip a beat. There were seasons when they used something like 5 or 6 RBs, or 8 - 10 WRs and the offense still produced. Penalties, sacks or other negative yardage most often was a bump in the road, not a barricade for that drive. Now it seems that any negative play kills a drive. They often seem to struggle even with a first or second down incomplete pass. (Maybe I'm just forgetting when adversity has been overcome.)

When was the last time the Packers offense "clicked" for almost an entire game? I am happy now to see it run smooth for two of the four quarters. Something is stale, but is it because of the overall plan (McCarthy) or the at line changes/decisions and overall execution (Rodgers)? Are there indeed more "little plays" to be had, and does he focus too much on the big plays. Is the Packers average time from snap to throw so long because of design, or because Rodgers knows he can extend plays for ever and therefore disregards the shorter stuff?

[Smidgeon]

It seems to be getting even worse. They struggle with average performances by Rodgers, even though his average may be higher than the common QB's. He needs to be at the top of his game, even against mediocre teams. There was a time when RBs and WRs were brought in off the street because of injuries, and the offense didn't seem to skip a beat. There were seasons when they used something like 5 or 6 RBs, or 8 - 10 WRs and the offense still produced. Penalties, sacks or other negative yardage most often was a bump in the road, not a barricade for that drive. Now it seems that any negative play kills a drive. They often seem to struggle even with a first or second down incomplete pass. (Maybe I'm just forgetting when adversity has been overcome.)

When was the last time the Packers offense "clicked" for almost an entire game? I am happy now to see it run smooth for two of the four quarters. Something is stale, but is it because of the overall plan (McCarthy) or the at line changes/decisions and overall execution (Rodgers)? Are there indeed more "little plays" to be had, and does he focus too much on the big plays. Is the Packers average time from snap to throw so long because of design, or because Rodgers knows he can extend plays for ever and therefore disregards the shorter stuff?

Valid questions. My take is that QBs are super hard to find. So you get a coach who doesn't let Rodgers do the Rodgers thing, like M3 did with Favre. Good coaches are easier to find than good QBs.

[deake]

Rodgers is the offense, so the slow starts are a result of Rodgers needing a few games to get up to speed as he doesn't get that chance is pre-season. Once Rodgers gets going the defense just comes along for the ride. Not sure how a change in coaches would help unless the new guy would have Rodgers playing in pre-season.

[gbgary]

i knew it was blasphemy but as i mentioned before the draft i'd have traded Rodgers to cle for their number ones and as much other draft loot as possible, drafted mayfield and b. chubb or ward, and signed a shit-load of free agents with the cap money (like the rams did) and start the rebuilding process now while remaining competitive (maybe more so) rather than tread water like we have been and will be for the next couple of years while Rodgers is still good. since that didn't happen, and they choked on the Mack deal, i'm just kind of a meh and looking forward to the next draft. Gute has shown he might be better than ted in that dept at least.

[mraynrand]

^^^ Just FYI, there was no way in hell Cleveland was trading for Rodgers. Dorsey had dream situation as GM. The QB he wanted was right there, ready to be plucked, he had the number 1 and number 4 pick, plus a whole collection of later picks, good defensive personnel, and tons 'o cap space. Why take on an older fragile QB and give up all that?

[gbgary]

^^^ Just FYI, there was no way in hell Cleveland was trading for Rodgers. Dorsey had dream situation as GM. The QB he wanted was right there, ready to be plucked, he had the number 1 and number 4 pick, plus a whole collection of later picks, good defensive personnel, and tons 'o cap space. Why take on an older fragile QB and give up all that?

yeah maybe...who knows? a hypothetical was posed so i answered. should an older fragile qb be given the biggest contract in nfl history?

[mraynrand]

yeah maybe...who knows? a hypothetical was posed so i answered. should an older fragile qb be given the biggest contract in nfl history?

It's risky, as we've already seen. And I heard second-hand scuttlebutt that Dorsey actually said what I wrote about the GM spot and the QB pick (but not about Rodgers). It's up to the accused to prove me wrong.

[Harlan Huckleby]

4. (con't) More Draft priorities, this time not forgetting the offense:

1. pass rush
2. OT
3. Safety

Those two top priorities are the toughest positions to address. So nothing to be done now (I know you aren't pining for action.)

[pbmax]

Those two top priorities are the toughest positions to address. So nothing to be done now (I know you aren't pining for action.)

You do need to get a little lucky. No team can afford two top of the market FA pass rushers at the same time. And to be guaranteed something in the draft, you need a Top 10 pick.

But you should be able to find one JPP or Strahan and then a Justin Tuck (3rd round). Then you mix and match other marginal pass rushers and count on the two very good ones to open lanes for the 2 average guys. Packers might be half way there because teams are already double teaming Clark and used to double Daniels. But no one is getting home regularly.

[pbmax]

Wilde was on the radio today talking about why the short passing game disappeared after the Bear second half and he made the point that teams know Rodgers is banged up and immediately move to take the short stuff away. This doesn't look a whole lot different that what the 49ers would do, play man short and keep safeties back.

Which is where scheme comes into play. Alex Smith, Goff and Foles aren't slinging it far down the field but somehow their OC find ways to scheme guys open. I had a video the other day from the Rams that had 3 guys in motion just to get a defense susceptible to a HB dive. Stubby hasn't caught on that he needs to adjust more. if he remade his offense to be more multiple in the same way he went hurry up in 2012-13, it could be done.

But he is stuck with occasional stacks of 2 receivers, no motion and lots of passes behind the LOS. It was a revelation to see him rush a mesh in preseason (two receivers cross each other in middle of find while running shallow crosses). It doesn't need to be that complicated. Peyton Manning set records in an offense that was 95% 11 personnel (1 RB, 1 TE, 3 WR).

[George Cumby]

Fire M3. Pettine as interim. If that works, great. If not you have the jump on the Christmas rush. Time to fish or cut bait.

[Teamcheez1]

We are 1-1-1. If I am Gute, I do nothing. I have 13 games left at which point a decision will be made.

[texaspackerbacker]

All this stupidity about firing McCarthy ...... it ain't gonna happen; it shouldn't happen.

I'll stop way short of calling him an offensive genius, but he does a fairly good job of maximizing the wins with what he has - the GOAT QB and mediocrity pretty much everywhere else. The hyper-caution thing when we have a lead is annoying at times, but it wins games - and that is, after all, the bottom line.

I'm not very enthusiastic at all about Pettine after 3 games. However, hopefully he is good enough to win with.

Hell yeah, Gute, do nothing - nothing major anyway, and win those 13 or so games. He seems to be doing a decent job of playing "small ball" in the free agent market.

[mraynrand]

The defense is behind the eight ball. They had to ditch Randall and Rollins both, lost Burnett, and Ha Ha's performance questions - that's a huge personnel loss and failure. Even with signing Williams and drafting defensive backs, injuries to King, Jones, and even Burks has really hurt their ability in coverage, even with some solid effort from the rooks.

This year looks more like 2006, like I feared in the off-season

[bobblehead]

1) Fire stubby at end of season unless we win the damn super bowl. Get a coach who knows that RB aren't glorified pass blockers and TE's should be multi functional. Seriously, Mercedes is best blocking TE in the league and has what? 15 snaps?

2) Draft BPA at all times. Period.

3) selectively use FA to fill roster holes as best we can. Don't need studs in FA, just fillers. TT's last year he did this very well except Bennett is a complete prick. Evans was a nice signing. I liked Quinton Dial, wouldn't mind him back.

4) Cut the chaff at WR. Adams is our #1, now fill in with cheap guys who do their jobs. Allison, Kumerow. Guys like that who aren't sexy, but do the job.

[mraynrand]

Exxon-Valdez-Scantron will be a stud

[pbmax]

1) Fire stubby at end of season unless we win the damn super bowl. Get a coach who knows that RB aren't glorified pass blockers and TE's should be multi functional. Seriously, Mercedes is best blocking TE in the league and has what? 15 snaps?

2) Draft BPA at all times. Period.

3) selectively use FA to fill roster holes as best we can. Don't need studs in FA, just fillers. TT's last year he did this very well except Bennett is a complete prick. Evans was a nice signing. I liked Quinton Dial, wouldn't mind him back.

4) Cut the chaff at WR. Adams is our #1, now fill in with cheap guys who do their jobs. Allison, Kumerow. Guys like that who aren't sexy, but do the job.


Listen to this man!

[Fosco33]

I think M3 was kept until we signed Arod. Regardless of record - I think M3 is gone this year.

[pbmax]

Exxon-Valdez-Scantron will be a stud

Marquette Verona-Sheboygan?

Does every city in Wisconsin have to be at least three syllables? Milwaukee, Weyaweuga, Oregon, Algoma? Is there a state law grandfathering in Lodi and Green Bay?

[pbmax]

I think M3 was kept until we signed Arod. Regardless of record - I think M3 is gone this year.

I think there is some truth to that speculation. Makes a LOT of sense.

[Joemailman]

Marquette Verona-Sheboygan?

Does every city in Wisconsin have to be at least three syllables? Milwaukee, Weyaweuga, Oregon, Algoma? Is there a state law grandfathering in Lodi and Green Bay?

I'm in Wausau. But Wausau used to be Big Bull Falls.

[pbmax]

I'm in Wausau. But Wausau used to be Big Bull Falls.

Marquette Wausau-Sheboygan does sound like a rail line. Just wrong initials.

[Smidgeon]

Exxon-Valdez-Scantron will be a stud

I hope so. I'm not a scout, but I have yet to be impressed with his NFL route running, body control, or change if direction. Of course, he's still a rookie, and he's on the field before a higher pick. So I'm probably wrong.

[Fritz]

1) Fire stubby at end of season unless we win the damn super bowl. Get a coach who knows that RB aren't glorified pass blockers and TE's should be multi functional. Seriously, Mercedes is best blocking TE in the league and has what? 15 snaps?

2) Draft BPA at all times. Period.

3) selectively use FA to fill roster holes as best we can. Don't need studs in FA, just fillers. TT's last year he did this very well except Bennett is a complete prick. Evans was a nice signing. I liked Quinton Dial, wouldn't mind him back.

4) Cut the chaff at WR. Adams is our #1, now fill in with cheap guys who do their jobs. Allison, Kumerow. Guys like that who aren't sexy, but do the job.


Slightly off topic, but would Hyde and Randall be a better pair of safeties than Brice and Clinton-Dix? If so, is it Tt or MM's fault that this safety position didn't shake out differently? Or both?