McCarthy's Fate

[The Shadow]

I think the Detroit & San Francisco games have sealed McCarthy's fate - unless the team miraculously reaches at least the NFC championship game. These 2 games have succinctly epitomized the staleness of Stubby's approach.
With the success of innovative young coaches across the NFL, Murphy & Gute will finally pull the plug. Rodgers can't keep saving McCarthy's bacon week after week.
Change is nigh.

[mraynrand]

"Not only did Rodgers become the first quarterback in team history to throw for 400 yards in back-to-back games, but he also established a new NFL record for consecutive 400-yard passing games without an interception:"

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2018/10/16/packers-qb-aaron-rodgers-makes-400-yard-history-against-49ers/

[mraynrand]

Valdes-Scantling needed only three catches to produce 103 yards, a career high. He became only the sixth receiver in franchise history to go over 100 yards receiving on three or fewer catches. The rookie started the contest with a 60-yard catch on the Packers’ first play from scrimmage.

Adams continued his torrid pace to start the 2018 season. He has touchdown catches in five of six games and is currently on pace to catch 125 passes, which would set a new Packers record. Over the last two weeks, he’s hauled in 19 passes for 272 yards and three touchdowns.

Graham’s 54-yard catch was his longest since 2013. He’s also starting to come on, with 11 catches for 180 yards over the last two games.

Valdes-Scantling has operated like a starting receiver the last two games thanks to injuries to Randall Cobb and Geronimo Allison. He’s responded in a big way, catching 10 passes for 171 yards and a touchdown.

Rodgers, meanwhile, became the first quarterback in team history with back-to-back 400-yard games as a passer.

I dunno, maybe this is all luck, Rodgers, etc. but it might involve some coaching too.

[mraynrand]

157


https://youtu.be/_EZCG2Ex8Q0?t=157

[gbgary]

"Not only did Rodgers become the first quarterback in team history to throw for 400 yards in back-to-back games, but he also established a new NFL record for consecutive 400-yard passing games without an interception:"

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2018/10/16/packers-qb-aaron-rodgers-makes-400-yard-history-against-49ers/

speaking of int's i heard an interesting stat on the dan patrick show this morning. at the current rate that Rodgers throws interceptions, it would take him to age 65 to eclipse Favre's INT record.

[texaspackerbacker]

McCarthy's fate huh?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the fault - to the extent that there even is a fault - lies with the previous GM and the delinquent job he has done procuring quality personnel to go along with Aaron Rodgers. McCarthy may not be flashy, but he is doing reasonably well with the personnel he has.

As for whether or not there is a "problem", fans of about 28-30 of the 32 NFL teams would trade the record and situation of their preferred teams for that of the Packers. Sure, things could have been, probably should have been maximized, but face it, we've gotten spoiled.

McCarthy ain't going anyplace until he gets ready to go. The leadership of the team doesn't want him to go, and the large sensible portion of fans don't want him to go either.

[call_me_ishmael]

I like MM but I agree he's not going to be retained unless they catch fire. It's just time for a change, similar to Andy Reid. How great would one of the hard ass Harbaugh's be here? I'd take either one in an instant.

[Rutnstrut]

McCarthy's fate huh?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the fault - to the extent that there even is a fault - lies with the previous GM and the delinquent job he has done procuring quality personnel to go along with Aaron Rodgers. McCarthy may not be flashy, but he is doing reasonably well with the personnel he has.

As for whether or not there is a "problem", fans of about 28-30 of the 32 NFL teams would trade the record and situation of their preferred teams for that of the Packers. Sure, things could have been, probably should have been maximized, but face it, we've gotten spoiled.

McCarthy ain't going anyplace until he gets ready to go. The leadership of the team doesn't want him to go, and the large sensible portion of fans don't want him to go either.



I'm no fan of TT and agree with you on his worthlessness. However if stubby was the coach you think he is, he would make do with the talent he has. How you can call what he does doing reasonably well is beyond me. Without AR bailing his ass out, he would be nothing.

[Rutnstrut]

speaking of int's i heard an interesting stat on the dan patrick show this morning. at the current rate that Rodgers throws interceptions, it would take him to age 65 to eclipse Favre's INT record.



That's how old he will be when GB makes another superb owl appearance if they keep the status quo mindset.

[texaspackerbacker]

I'm no fan of TT and agree with you on his worthlessness. However if stubby was the coach you think he is, he would make do with the talent he has. How you can call what he does doing reasonably well is beyond me. Without AR bailing his ass out, he would be nothing.

The reason I consider it making do reasonably well is because the Packers have won consistently over the years - it's as simple as that. And they have done so with very limited talent other than the world's greatest QB. Yeah, "without AR bailing his ass out, he would be nothing" - nothing more than now anyway. But I ask you, what coach would? There's a lot of idiotic suggestions in this forum - run more, rein in Rodgers/make him scramble less, get rid of the ball quicker, etc. Would you rather have a coach who thought like that? I guarantee, the Packers would have been worse over the Rodgers years with a coach who subscribed to that crap - given the shitty O Line and mostly mediocre D.

[texaspackerbacker]

That's how old he will be when GB makes another superb owl appearance if they keep the status quo mindset.

Tell me you're not saying you'd rather Rodgers threw MORE interceptions/took a lot of chances like a lot of other QBs. The scrambling and holding on to the ball is the carefulness that leads to his fantastic record of lack of interceptions. I, for one, want that to continue.

[Carolina_Packer]

Somewhat useless to argue fault. Better to argue responsibility, as in who is ultimately responsible for the performance of the team? Where does the buck stop?

I suspect every reasonable person on this forum will agree there is enough blame to go around for the regressions we've seen, when some were hopeful, possibly expecting more out of this team, given all the changes.

With so much change from last off-season, it may not be as quick of a fix as hoped. You can't quickly re-tool the defense that basically added Wilkerson and some rooks to the mix, with basically the same cast of defensive characters, especially if you are working to take care of your franchise QB. They could have gone all in with Mack, but at a substantial cap cost.

We knew the approach was going to change, but limited players in Capers scheme can just as easily be limited players in Pettine's scheme. Talent always supersedes scheme. Who can win their one on one battles?

MM is ultimately responsible for the way this team goes. Just because the team might make a change doesn't mean it's all his fault. He has been a successful coach in his time, but it is time for a different approach. They've changed everything else. If he falls short of a playoff run, I think he's out.

[mraynrand]

There's a lot of idiotic suggestions in this forum - run more, rein in Rodgers/make him scramble less, get rid of the ball quicker, etc. Would you rather have a coach who thought like that? I guarantee, the Packers would have been worse over the Rodgers years with a coach who subscribed to that crap .

This is a great post, except for the fact that it totally flies in the face of facts. The last best year of the Packer O was 2014, when they were #1 overall; 8th in passing and 11th in rushing. The run balance not only protected Rodgers, but opened up the passing game. Also, they had one of the top rated O-lines that year. Notably, their TD-checkdown passing offense was the culprit the following year, dropping to #25th ranked while their defense and running game stayed about the same (defense was #13 in 2014, #12 in 2015; rushing game was ranked #12 in 2015).

[pbmax]

We have a lot of evidence now that touchdown to check down worked very well with certain receivers and not really that well since they started to disappear.

Its not the one factor, tex is right that the O line is not what it formerly was, especially on the right side. And defenses have adjusted. But the current targets make this a hit or miss approach.

[mraynrand]

We have a lot of evidence now that touchdown to check down worked very well with certain receivers and not really that well since they started to disappear.

It was really having the collection of trusted receivers so that defenses couldn't afford to take one guy away, and Packers could run multiple verticals, with Rodgers picking his favorite/most open and let it fly. Jennings and Jordy at their peak with Jones Driver and Finley all as legit targets. But Jennings as top wideout in that group made it all go - when he got hurt in 2011, it screwed it all up.

[texaspackerbacker]

Like you said, they had a "top-rated" O line that year - healthy Sitton, Lang, and Bulaga, etc. as well as Eddie Lacy at his best. I've got nothing against a running game or even a total immersion running game. It's what I campaign for a lot for the Badgers. But if you don't have a decent O Line and you do have an all world QB, then the sensible thing to do is pass pass pass - assuming that QB is adept at scrambling.

Rodgers had an off year in 2015. I checked to see what might have been the cause. There were injuries to the O Line as well as Lacy in '15, not to mention Jordy Nelson missing the season.

[mraynrand]

Like you said, they had a "top-rated" O line that year - healthy Sitton, Lang, and Bulaga, etc. as well as Eddie Lacy at his best. I've got nothing against a running game or even a total immersion running game. It's what I campaign for a lot for the Badgers. But if you don't have a decent O Line and you do have an all world QB, then the sensible thing to do is pass pass pass - assuming that QB is adept at scrambling.

Rodgers had an off year in 2015. I checked to see what might have been the cause. There were injuries to the O Line as well as Lacy in '15, not to mention Jordy Nelson missing the season.

Congrats on looking something up. I didn't think you had it in you. :wink: The point remains - a balanced offense just works better. Just look at the Rams

[Rutnstrut]

Tell me you're not saying you'd rather Rodgers threw MORE interceptions/took a lot of chances like a lot of other QBs. The scrambling and holding on to the ball is the carefulness that leads to his fantastic record of lack of interceptions. I, for one, want that to continue.

That's not what I meant, but. Sometimes I think AR plays it too safe. What I meant above is if the front office and coaching staff doesn't start doing things differently. It will be another 30 years or so before this team even sniffs another SB.

[texaspackerbacker]

I'm still not ruling out this year hahahaha.

[Rutnstrut]

Someone should tell Belichick that running the ball and the short passing game doesn't work when you have a great QB. Maybe he could start winning then.

[3irty1]

The last best year of the Packer O was 2014, when they were #1 overall; 8th in passing and 11th in rushing.

I think the statistical success of the 2014 offense is a deception that fooled almost everybody. This was the year where the offense sprung visible leaks and started getting reliably stuffed by good defenses. In that year they started their first 3 games losing at Seattle, making a 2nd half comeback against the Jets, and losing at Detroit in one of the worst offensive performances of the MM/Rodgers era. All good defenses. Just to prove this was not merely a slow start, the offense later fell apart against the next best defense they saw all year in Buffalo. Then of course there was the NFCC where the offense turned the ball over and settled for field goals while the defense dominated most of the game.

I've come to view 2014 as the year where MM's game plans shifted from being reliably competitive ones that kept the Packers in every game to plans that only made hay while the sun shined.

[mraynrand]

I think the statistical success of the 2014 offense is a deception that fooled almost everybody.

The simplest explanation is that the passing attack was just running out of steam, due to loss of receiving talent. in 2014, they made it work well against the weaker defenses but got exposed by the good ones. In 2015, they got exposed by all - and lost the running game to boot.

[3irty1]

The simplest explanation is that the passing attack was just running out of steam, due to loss of receiving talent. in 2014, they made it work well against the weaker defenses but got exposed by the good ones. In 2015, they got exposed by all - and lost the running game to boot.

I buy that. This was post-Jennings, post-fast-Jordy, and post-Finley. In other words it was post-mismatch.

[mraynrand]

I buy that. This was post-Jennings, post-fast-Jordy, and post-Finley. In other words it was post-mismatch.

They may actually have a chance to reboot that offense this year - Adams, Cobb, Graham, MVS, EQ, Allison, Monty. Flood the field and try and let the defense stop 'em all. But the younguns have to be reliable and line has to be healthy...

[Fritz]

McCarthy's fate huh?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the fault - to the extent that there even is a fault - lies with the previous GM and the delinquent job he has done procuring quality personnel to go along with Aaron Rodgers. McCarthy may not be flashy, but he is doing reasonably well with the personnel he has.

As for whether or not there is a "problem", fans of about 28-30 of the 32 NFL teams would trade the record and situation of their preferred teams for that of the Packers. Sure, things could have been, probably should have been maximized, but face it, we've gotten spoiled.

McCarthy ain't going anyplace until he gets ready to go. The leadership of the team doesn't want him to go, and the large sensible portion of fans don't want him to go either.


I agree that we Packer fans have been spoiled. I see this up close, living near Detroit. I also have begun to think that Thompson lost some of his luster these last three or so years. On the other hand, he drafted Micah Hyde, who turns out to have been better suited to safety - and he drafted Damarius Randall, who apparently is also better suited to safety. Both of them are starting NFL safeties now, playing better than Brice, for sure. And funny, we could use a safety right about now. So is that a coaching problem? The talent is there, but the coaching staff apparently did not see how to best utilize that talent. TT drafted poorly in my opinion the last few years - Rollins, M. Adams, J. Spriggs and J. Jones were important busts - and could not make up for it with the A. Joneses and the K. Clarks of the world. He just didn't hit on enough. Yet he did hit on some that the coaching staff failed to utilize. And there was Hayward, too, who was well-suited to a different system - is that on the GM or the coaches? Hayward is obviously talented enough to play and start in the NFL.

So I wouldn't place all the blame at Ted's feet, unless you think he, as GM, should have ditched MM a couple years ago, for not utilizing the talent he was given.

I dunno. It's tough to assign responsibility when it's all so intermeshed. Suffice to say that being a fan of a sports team is unlike enjoying other entertainment - how often do movie buffs spend arguing more about the director vs. the producer vs. the actor's responsibility for the product than they do actually enjoying the movie?

[pbmax]

^ The mismatch between the talent and its use on defense was the biggest problem for late era Capers. He needed talent and managed to squander it away in his scheme. Hayward wasn't all his fault given injuries, but even when he was healthy they just wanted him as a slot guy.

Thompson had some down drafts, that was also a factor. Also very few game changers in this decade (Bach, Adams) and drafting late did not help.

But the first problem is the one good teams solve. Its an organizational issue. Someone has to square the circle between talent acquisition and its use on the field. You aren't this bad at talent acquisition after being very good without an active failure. Thompson and Murphy could have been the Steelers and fiddled around with the coach and his D coordinator to get the lineup they wanted, but they don't like to operate that way.

So it should fall to McCarthy, but he showed how he felt about this issue when he weighed in on the GM hiring process. He wanted FA and not simply draft and develop. His current usage of Aaron Jones is the prime example of the failure to take advantage of what you have so the process can survive.

[pbmax]

I buy that. This was post-Jennings, post-fast-Jordy, and post-Finley. In other words it was post-mismatch.

The problems were evident before 2015 though as you said.

Stop me if you have seen this before: game script is normally effective. Defense adjusts, then the offense sputters and its an open question if they get a new functional plan at halftime. Prior to the last two years the offense would grind its gears for the entire rest of the game. Packers and Rodgers had a well deserved reputation for not pulling games out late (not all AR's fault, but still, it did not happen often). But I think Rodgers role in the late game offense has grown past that of a vet. I suspect he is calling his own offense late when behind.

I was going to post in another thread that the Packers offense has become Dan Reeves/John Elway with Denver. The plan is horrific and nothing good happens until the plan gets chucked out the window and the QB asserts himself. This is why Elway was king of the comebacks for quite a while. And this is exactly whats happening now. What used to be an effective first 15-20 plays is just as likely to be a dud and you have a hugely slow start with a underperforming D.

McCarthy was a far better OC than late era Reeves until the last few years. Moving away from personnel groupings (his one area of true inspiration) and 1.5 years of no huddle lunacy, we are back to a tired offense that can't do much other than throw short or ask the QB to run around, avoid getting hit and find someone late and deep.

[mraynrand]

^ The mismatch between the talent and its use on defense was the biggest problem for late era Capers. He needed talent and managed to squander it away in his scheme. Hayward wasn't all his fault given injuries, but even when he was healthy they just wanted him as a slot guy.

Thompson had some down drafts, that was also a factor. Also very few game changers in this decade (Bach, Adams) and drafting late did not help.

But the first problem is the one good teams solve. Its an organizational issue. Someone has to square the circle between talent acquisition and its use on the field. You aren't this bad at talent acquisition after being very good without an active failure. Thompson and Murphy could have been the Steelers and fiddled around with the coach and his D coordinator to get the lineup they wanted, but they don't like to operate that way.

So it should fall to McCarthy, but he showed how he felt about this issue when he weighed in on the GM hiring process. He wanted FA and not simply draft and develop. His current usage of Aaron Jones is the prime example of the failure to take advantage of what you have so the process can survive.

I mostly agree, especially about the tweaking of coaches aspect. But with respect to Jones, if what we hear and somewhat see is true, there actually is a problem of having him reliably in there (catching, pass pro). But they had a whole off-season. Is lack of progress his fault, their fault, or just a real limitation he has that can't be solved? The third possibility applies to Randall's immaturity, Hayward's injuries, Hyde's speed limitations and cost, and choices they made that just didn't work out (investing in Shields as their shut down corner). It's just not possible to distill all this down to easy finger-pointing at one person.

[pbmax]

I mostly agree, especially about the tweaking of coaches aspect. But with respect to Jones, if what we hear and somewhat see is true, there actually is a problem of having him reliably in there (catching, pass pro). But they had a whole off-season. Is lack of progress his fault, their fault, or just a real limitation he has that can't be solved? The third possibility applies to Randall's immaturity, Hayward's injuries, Hyde's speed limitations and cost, and choices they made that just didn't work out (investing in Shields as their shut down corner). It's just not possible to distill all this down to easy finger-pointing at one person.

Its a fair point that no one explanation covers it all. lack of talent and the lack of flexibility it gives you does this to bad and mediocre teams.

Its a little different in each case. Jones comes down to perception of reliability. His blocking this year has been better but they are not asking him to catch the ball much yet; I just don't think they are convinced he's ready for the Monty/Williams part of the offense even if he might be. And I doubt they wanted to modify the offense for him and have to use a temporary one for two weeks. But the time has come for him. And if there are things he can't do, you find something else. The offense needs talent on the field, not plodding execution.

Hyde could flat out play and several people on the board saw him as a safety. I think they got locked into starters and missed the boat here. Burnett's contract did not help.

Hayward was injuries and then they asked him to play press coverage when he was better at off coverage. Which they had accommodated before with Tramontana.

Shields case hampered them in several respects, can't be anticipated.

Randall is a good question, goes to Sitton a little bit too. How much attitude and clubhouse lawyering are you willing to tolerate? M3 is usually good at avoiding this but I sense his hook has gotten quicker. And I think he definitely asked his new GM to move the guy to alleviate the PR problem of the week. But Randall out of position falls into the Hyde issue. If he has better success elsewhere, is he as animated?

[Rutnstrut]

To pb's point of AR calling his own plays when it gets late in games and they are behind. There were a few times last season when it appeared that he was telling stubby what would be the best play to send in to Hundley. If I remember correctly, one or more of those were OT against the Browns.

[Smidgeon]

Don't know where to put this, but I finally read one of ESPN's pseudo-fluff pieces, and it had this nugget in it:


Since 2015, the Packers' first-through-third-quarter scoring differential is minus-91, which ranks 20th in the NFL, but their fourth-quarter differential is plus-105, best in the league over that stretch.

Um. Fairly damning that the head coach and de facto offensive play strategist is -91 in the first three quarters with one of the greatest QBs to play the game.

[ThunderDan]

Don't know where to put this, but I finally read one of ESPN's pseudo-fluff pieces, and it had this nugget in it:



Um. Fairly damning that the head coach and de facto offensive play strategist is -91 in the first three quarters with one of the greatest QBs to play the game.

Who says MM can't make halftime adjustments and light it up in the 4th?

[ThunderDan]

Don't know where to put this, but I finally read one of ESPN's pseudo-fluff pieces, and it had this nugget in it:



Um. Fairly damning that the head coach and de facto offensive play strategist is -91 in the first three quarters with one of the greatest QBs to play the game.


Stats for 2018 - Scoring Per Quarter and Rank

1st - 5.0 14th
2nd - 5.5 21st
3rd - 5.5 14th
4th - 8.7 6th

[ThunderDan]

Defensive Stats:
1st - 9.3 32nd
2nd - 7.3 20th
3rd - 1.0 1st
4th - 6.3 14th

[pbmax]

Stats for 2018 - Scoring Per Quarter and Rank

1st - 5.0 14th
2nd - 5.5 21st
3rd - 5.5 14th
4th - 8.7 6th

I'd bet some money that the second quarter has looked weird for some time. Once they go off the script, its anyone's guess what will work.

[pbmax]

Defensive Stats:
1st - 9.3 32nd
2nd - 7.3 20th
3rd - 1.0 1st
4th - 6.3 14th


So he adjusts well at halftime but what the hell is Pettine doing during the week?

Anyone have any ideas? Does he go blitz happy in the second half after once again failing to generate a 1st half pass rush with four?

[Fritz]

The Bears game was the anamoly - the defense held up for a while in that first quarter. But I don't know why they come out so flat. Maybe the defense is listening to the same coaches the offense listens to before the game.

Maybe Pettine starts out hoping somehow the standard four rushers can get some pressure, then gives in once it's clear that doesn't happen.

Matthews is old, and Perry has been disappointing. Fackrell is officially a bust. Daniels has been a disappointment, too. And Montravius Adams is heading for bust territory.

[Vincenzo]

Gotta wonder if the original poster is right that the time is nigh. Perhaps at the end of the season MM takes a job upstairs at Lambeau and thereby influences the selection of new Head Coach next season. I think this could be the worse case scenario for our team.

[3irty1]

^ The mismatch between the talent and its use on defense was the biggest problem for late era Capers. He needed talent and managed to squander it away in his scheme. Hayward wasn't all his fault given injuries, but even when he was healthy they just wanted him as a slot guy.

I think this is right. Capers stumbled upon a scheme that used Charles Woodson to such great effect that it was like having 12 guys on the field. This was an excellent example of fitting the scheme to the players which is of course a hallmark of good coaching. Then curiously, as Charles Woodson was about to play his last season in Green Bay, Hayward was drafted ostensibly as his heir apparent. Could be that this was buckling to the temptation to injury-proof the scheme or was somehow a belief that it was the position created for Woodson rather than the man himself that was special. It almost doesn't matter what the thinking was, we were now fitting the players to the scheme.

I think McCarthy started doing something similar. I got the sense he was burned one too many times by constructing his multiples offense around oft-injured talents like Finley and Cobb that his philosophy changed to scheme the players as interchangeable chess pieces. Whether it was Finley or Andrew Quarless lined up, the plan would be the same. Rodgers' comments about McCarthy under-utilizing Adams is further evidence as well. MM has been committing the same sins as Capers.

[mraynrand]

^^^ Yep, and APB (and others) go further to point out how Belichick not only schemes to his players' strengths, but will also completely alter their schemes to counter the particular strengths and weaknesses of their weekly opponent.

[pbmax]

I think McCarthy started doing something similar. I got the sense he was burned one too many times by constructing his multiples offense around oft-injured talents like Finley and Cobb that his philosophy changed to scheme the players as interchangeable chess pieces. Whether it was Finley or Andrew Quarless lined up, the plan would be the same. Rodgers' comments about McCarthy under-utilizing Adams is further evidence as well. MM has been committing the same sins as Capers.

And this is defensible on its own. Makes complete sense. Not every backup to Wally Pipp is Lou Gehrig.

But what isn't defensible, and the reason Rand's nickname Stubby has stuck, is that he sticks with that Plan 2 regardless of evidence its not working with these players. Being somewhere in the middle between talent and scheme is SO much more effective. But M3 is worried about his script and the practice schedule. What he really needs to do is rework the entire offensive playbook to give him ways to get lesser players open AND exploit the most talented ones.

That TE quadrilateral TD play to Monty was a thing of beauty. Mostly I think it was an unscouted look (San Fran initially put two DBs over there) but the fact that it caused confusion by formation only should be enough to convince you to do this regularly by design.

[3irty1]

^^^ Yep, and APB (and others) go further to point out how Belichick not only schemes to his players' strengths, but will also completely alter their schemes to counter the particular strengths and weaknesses of their weekly opponent.

I think Belichick's competitive advantage comes from operating in the moneyball era of professional sports. The NFL has such strong parity measures that the ability to put to use any body type or any standout skill set is a big deal. There is an arms race to find the talented tweeners and misfits that the league undervalues and invent roles for them. If the same guy who is wheeling and dealing has perfect information about how a player will be used, he knows more about real player values than most of the folks on the other end of the phone. Belichick can be barely capable at the GM portion of his job but still be a force multiplier in that integrated role. He's neither giving his GM a shopping list nor is he grabbing best player available and expecting his coach to figure out what to do with him.

[mraynrand]

Good posts PB and 31. All that is true with the stipulation that even all the scheming in the world can’t make silk purse from sows ear.

It’s like when my Sophmore IM b-ball team went up against a team of seniors with two starting guards from the high school team who had quit because they hated the coach and played IM instead. We put in our amazing triangle and two zone defense and took those two guys out with our best defenders. We still lost by 30 points because their other guys were on average about 5 inches taller and rebounded and scored at will inside.

Lesson: it helps to actually have Charles Woodson himself on your defense.

[3irty1]

Being somewhere in the middle between talent and scheme is SO much more effective.

I think this is true, but in a very specific way. Take another defensive example: 2013 Seattle. That team had some exceptional players who'd be great anywhere, but Earl Thomas was what the defense was built around. He was such a great center fielder that they could use a tweener linebacker as the other safety full time. Kam Chancellor is special teamer on many clubs but next to Thomas he was a star. Now Seattle's base defensive scheme was indistinguishable from a small college running a 4-4 split. They suddenly had uses for other tweeners everywhere else in their front 7.

So yes they were in between talent and scheme. Earl Thomas is an irreplaceable talent that would do well anywhere but the scheme around him made tweener sized holes everywhere else that you can give your GM a shopping list for because they are relatively cheap and plentiful. Talent determines the scheme which determines the talent. So taking this back to MM's offense, Rodgers is obviously the irreplaceable talent. If our roster was built to suit any scheme it seems to me that it was the no huddle given all the players who wear multiple hats and can give many different looks without changing personnel. This used to catch a lot of guys substituting and lead to many big free plays. Defenses seem to have figured this out. It's now just another tired scheme.

[pbmax]

So yes they were in between talent and scheme. Earl Thomas is an irreplaceable talent that would do well anywhere but the scheme around him made tweener sized holes everywhere else that you can give your GM a shopping list for because they are relatively cheap and plentiful. Talent determines the scheme which determines the talent. So taking this back to MM's offense, Rodgers is obviously the irreplaceable talent. If our roster was built to suit any scheme it seems to me that it was the no huddle given all the players who wear multiple hats and can give many different looks without changing personnel. This used to catch a lot of guys substituting and lead to many big free plays. Defenses seem to have figured this out. It's now just another tired scheme.

Agree that a generational talent somewhere can make all the difference. Also lets a smart veteran do what they do best rather than multi-task and be exposed.

My second largest concern with M3 is that either because of age and success OR because he has never really had to do it, he is not down with designing his offense from top to bottom with interlocking plays that aways get one player open quickly.

My largest concern is that his QB is stuck in Plan 2.0 and doesn't want to give it up.

My greatest source of hope is that I think Rodgers will get this faster than McCarthy has. Rodgers already conceded he has to get the ball out faster.

[3irty1]

Agree that a generational talent somewhere can make all the difference. Also lets a smart veteran do what they do best rather than multi-task and be exposed.

My second largest concern with M3 is that either because of age and success OR because he has never really had to do it, he is not down with designing his offense from top to bottom with interlocking plays that aways get one player open quickly.

My largest concern is that his QB is stuck in Plan 2.0 and doesn't want to give it up.

My greatest source of hope is that I think Rodgers will get this faster than McCarthy has. Rodgers already conceded he has to get the ball out faster.

McCarthy's stubbornness is visible in whatever he does whether that's sticking by a game plan that isn't working or sticking with personnel longer than most are comfortable with. It's easy to shit on this when the Packers are losing but there is a good side to his stubbornness too. I'm convinced that McCarthy's game plan is more than one game long. He's big into self-scouting and is telling a story on film. He's definitely setting things up for the future by making sure certain looks and exhaustive patterns are there. I'd guess from McCarthy's point of view the big failure this year has been not establishing the one thing that the offense does well. It used to be that our offense would find its stride early on when some simple play would emerge that the team could execute perfectly and had a reasonable chance of success with even if everybody knew it was coming. This would become the rock upon which all the counters, fakes, and derivatives would be built. This year there is no off-tackle zone or back shoulder comeback yet.

[ThunderDan]

My second largest concern with M3 is that either because of age and success OR because he has never really had to do it, he is not down with designing his offense from top to bottom with interlocking plays that aways get one player open quickly.

I am not sure on this. There does seem to be a player that is flashing open short right away. Monty was wide open on a blitz across the middle against SF and ARod was looking elsewhere. Numerous times at Packer games I will be watching certain receivers and they will break open short but ARod doesn't go there right away. We also have been running more crossing routes this year than previously. We also have been using the bubble WR screen a lot but not for long games recently.

I guess without knowing the call and all of the receivers' routes we really are guessing about scheme. The results are plain to see on the field and we are trying to back into the cause.

[pbmax]

I am not sure on this. There does seem to be a player that is flashing open short right away. Monty was wide open on a blitz across the middle against SF and ARod was looking elsewhere. Numerous times at Packer games I will be watching certain receivers and they will break open short but ARod doesn't go there right away. We also have been running more crossing routes this year than previously. We also have been using the bubble WR screen a lot but not for long games recently.

I guess without knowing the call and all of the receivers' routes we really are guessing about scheme. The results are plain to see on the field and we are trying to back into the cause.

McCarthy has, despite all of Twitter's complaints, made definite strides this year. Some of these looks showed up last year, but they are happening more now.

But they definitely need the QB to buy in to make more of it work.

[bobblehead]

McCarthy's fate huh?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the fault - to the extent that there even is a fault - lies with the previous GM and the delinquent job he has done procuring quality personnel to go along with Aaron Rodgers. McCarthy may not be flashy, but he is doing reasonably well with the personnel he has.

As for whether or not there is a "problem", fans of about 28-30 of the 32 NFL teams would trade the record and situation of their preferred teams for that of the Packers. Sure, things could have been, probably should have been maximized, but face it, we've gotten spoiled.

McCarthy ain't going anyplace until he gets ready to go. The leadership of the team doesn't want him to go, and the large sensible portion of fans don't want him to go either.

In mondays game Rodgers moved Monty to the slot presnap and had him iso v. a LB. Monty crushed him at the point and was wide open. Rodgers looked deep and eventually took a sack. TTs fault??

[Fritz]

In mondays game Rodgers moved Monty to the slot presnap and had him iso v. a LB. Monty crushed him at the point and was wide open. Rodgers looked deep and eventually took a sack. TTs fault??

I see Bobblehead, at least, understands the real problem here. You all are parsing details and complexities when it's so much easier and more satisfying to blame one person, especially if he's been fired already. Me, I think you can trace all this back to Mike Stock. It's his fault, all of it.

[mraynrand]

I see Bobblehead, at least, understands the real problem here. You all are parsing details and complexities when it's so much easier and more satisfying to blame one person, especially if he's been fired already. Me, I think you can trace all this back to Mike Stock. It's his fault, all of it.

The beauty of this is if you go to Stock's house, drag him outside by his ankles, and pummel him on his front lawn, the Packers will start winning again.

[bobblehead]

The beauty of this is if you go to Stock's house, drag him outside by his ankles, and pummel him on his front lawn, the Packers will start winning again.

Untrue. I already tried it.

[texaspackerbacker]

4-2-1 with one tie and maybe one of the losses where we got robbed by officiating.

Yeah, we really need to START winning hahahaha.

[mraynrand]

4-2-1 with one tie and maybe one of the losses where we got robbed by officiating.

Yeah, we really need to START winning hahahaha.

Wait, are you saying they already won their next game? As long as you are having fantasies, why not imagine they are 6-0. If 20-30 plays had gone their way, they'd be undefeated easily. Same with the rest of the teams in the NFL. I mean, this is the kind of solid, logical thinking that leads one to believe that all 32 teams should win the Super Bowl every year or fire everyone in their organizations.

[Bretsky]

BE READY TO BUMP THE THREAD

MM's FATE may be as the next coach of the Cleveland Browns

Hugh Jackson is a horrible excuse for an NFL Head Coach; he's good as gone.

They need a QB Whisperer.....and with GB roots already there....Enter Mike McCarthy ???????????????????/

What do you guys think ?

[mraynrand]

BE READY TO BUMP THE THREAD

MM's FATE may be as the next coach of the Cleveland Browns

Hugh Jackson is a horrible excuse for an NFL Head Coach; he's good as gone.

They need a QB Whisperer.....and with GB roots already there....Enter Mike McCarthy ???????????????????/

What do you guys think ?

I've been saying this for some time now - since last year. I think I posted something last week where I predicted that when they hire him, Randall's head will explode.

[Bretsky]

I've been saying this for some time now - since last year. I think I posted something last week where I predicted that when they hire him, Randall's head will explode.

DANGE.....so I DON"T GET BRAGGING RIGHTS FOR BEING THE FIRST TO MAKE THAT WHACKED OUT PREDICTION :)

WELL I'M LAYING CLAIM TO THIS ONE, and IT WILL HAVE OUR ENTIRE FORUM SCEAMING

There are some amazing QB prospects in college football, but not many teams have a great need for QB.

While many of us see GB as being close to a SB, GREEN BAY USES ONE OF THEIR FIRST ROUNDERS TO DRAFT AROD'S SUCCESSOR

[call_me_ishmael]

My thought was they'd use those two picks to trade into the top 10 to go for a top tier QB, but now that they resigned Aaron to a mega deal and given the lackluster crop of QBs this year, I don't think they will.

It is _insane_ how good the upcoming draft is in terms of decorated defensive front 7 talent. The Packers need to do whatever it takes to walk out of there with a game changer, even if it means ponying up the two #1s, and whatever else is necessary.

[Fritz]

My thought was they'd use those two picks to trade into the top 10 to go for a top tier QB, but now that they resigned Aaron to a mega deal and given the lackluster crop of QBs this year, I don't think they will.

It is _insane_ how good the upcoming draft is in terms of decorated defensive front 7 talent. The Packers need to do whatever it takes to walk out of there with a game changer, even if it means ponying up the two #1s, and whatever else is necessary.

So Ish, if the BPA in this area is a defensive lineman and not a linebacker, do the Packers draft him?

[mraynrand]

if the BPA in this area is a defensive lineman and not a linebacker, do the Packers draft him?

Only if a sure-fire DE. You could always go 4-3. With the trash the Packers have at OLB, it wouldn't be that hard to transition. Bring in another FA DL and/or FA/draft another OLB for the 4-3. The '4-3' would be a mere formality anyway given that nickel is base. Maybe Jones and/or Burks can play the Will LB. (This will cause Wist's head to explode).

[call_me_ishmael]

So Ish, if the BPA in this area is a defensive lineman and not a linebacker, do the Packers draft him?

Yeah, I think so. They need someone in the front 7 who can make it 11 v 10, meaning they can occupy two players allowing someone else to be free.

If I'm the GM, I would sell the farm for Nick Bosa. This team has the QB, the LT, the WR, the playmaking back in 88 (if they used him right), and the CBs in 20, 23 to be special if they just add a superstar pass rusher. 3-4 solid players won't do as much as one special player will.

[run pMc]

I think they have to go heavy on drafting defense, as long as it's not a repeat of 2012 (in terms of results).
Pettine will get more guys who will fit what he wants.

They can't play Kenny Clark 85% of the snaps for 16+ games.
They need to reload at OLB. Matthews is aging, Perry is hurt often. Fackrell and Gilbert are depth guys. They need a playmaker here.
They need to upgrade at S too. I think they could do better than what they have.
They will need to shore up their OL as well. Depending on whether Cole Madison ever plays, they will need 1 or 2 players here. Bell vs. McCray vs. Patrick is pick your poison, and Bulaga's on his last contract year (and no lock to play a full season).

[Teamcheez1]

I don't think McCarthy's fate will be clear until the end of the season.

Over on ESPN, Demovsky had the following fact:

Only two teams have fewer starters combined from the 2015, 2016 and 2017 drafts. The Raiders, who have gutted their team since Jon Gruden’s arrival, have two. The Titans have three. Those three drafts should serve as the heart of the team in 2018. Instead, there’s only four full-time starters: King, defensive tackle Kenny Clark, linebacker Blake Martinez and whichever running back (Jamaal Williams, Aaron Jones or Ty Montgomery) opens a given game.

McCarthy and Pettine are far from perfect, but sometimes I feel they are fighting with one arm tied behind their back.

[mraynrand]

^^^ That's what I've been saying. The 2018 draft was basically a soft re-boot of the 2015 draft. Usually the 'sequel' is worse than the original, but hopefully not in this case.

[Joemailman]

^^^ That's what I've been saying. The 2018 draft was basically a soft re-boot of the 2015 draft. Usually the 'sequel' is worse than the original, but hopefully not in this case.

If you're talking primarily about the CB's drafted, I don't think it's the same. Randall was a safety they were switching to Corner. Rollins was a Corner who had played 1 year of college football. Josh Jackson and Alexander had 3-4 years of experience playing Corner in college.

[mraynrand]

If you're talking primarily about the CB's drafted, I don't think it's the same. Randall was a safety they were switching to Corner. Rollins was a Corner who had played 1 year of college football. Josh Jackson and Alexander had 3-4 years of experience playing Corner in college.

Sure, there are distinctions. Just like in episode I, the death star could only eliminate one planet at a time and eventually blew up, while the Episode VII death star could take out a whole solar system. I'm kinda hoping J'xander will be the Ep. VII Death Star, but not explode like Randall. Rollins was kinda like the red droid sold by the Jawas - pretty useless and blew up right away.

[ThunderDan]

Sure, there are distinctions. Just like in episode I, the death star could only eliminate one planet at a time and eventually blew up, while the Episode VII death star could take out a whole solar system. I'm kinda hoping J'xander will be the Ep. VII Death Star, but not explode like Randall. Rollins was kinda like the red droid sold by the Jawas - pretty useless and blew up right away.

Isn't Rollins still on our roster as IR?

[Joemailman]

Isn't Rollins still on our roster as IR?

No. He was released with an injury settlement.

[Joemailman]

Sure, there are distinctions. Just like in episode I, the death star could only eliminate one planet at a time and eventually blew up, while the Episode VII death star could take out a whole solar system. I'm kinda hoping J'xander will be the Ep. VII Death Star, but not explode like Randall. Rollins was kinda like the red droid sold by the Jawas - pretty useless and blew up right away.

Is that like Star Wars talk? I wouldn't know. That was about as intelligible to me as a Woody post when he's agitated.

[3irty1]

Sure, there are distinctions. Just like in episode I, the death star could only eliminate one planet at a time and eventually blew up, while the Episode VII death star could take out a whole solar system. I'm kinda hoping J'xander will be the Ep. VII Death Star, but not explode like Randall. Rollins was kinda like the red droid sold by the Jawas - pretty useless and blew up right away.

Uncle Ted, this R2 unit has a bad motivator!

[ThunderDan]

No. He was released with an injury settlement.

Thank you.

[run pMc]

Is that like Star Wars talk? I wouldn't know. That was about as intelligible to me as a Woody post when he's agitated.

It made perfect sense to me. Not sure what that says about me. LOL


Uncle Ted, this R2 unit has a bad motivator!
Classic description of D.Randall. Or Cletidus Hunt.

[mraynrand]

Is that like Star Wars talk? I wouldn't know. That was about as intelligible to me as a Woody post when he's agitated.

only 1/100th as long, in regular, uncolored font. Sorry to inflict Star Trek on you. I can't help but think about the starship Serenity and Captain Apollo when I'm searching for a football metaphor.

[Fritz]

As a fan, I am tired of MM. I don't care if he's actually a good coach or not. I just want someone new, a new toy, someone with promise so I can gaze with great hope upon the unknown future.

And if he doesn't work out, then I want him fired, and in addition, I want to be able to bitch that the Packers fired a perfectly good coach in MM, who then will be leading Cleveland to the playoffs.

I am what they call a "true fan."

Yeah baby!

[Fosco33]

If he didn’t mandate that Monty stay in end zone....

[mission]

As a fan, I am tired of MM. I don't care if he's actually a good coach or not. I just want someone new, a new toy, someone with promise so I can gaze with great hope upon the unknown future.

And if he doesn't work out, then I want him fired, and in addition, I want to be able to bitch that the Packers fired a perfectly good coach in MM, who then will be leading Cleveland to the playoffs.

I am what they call a "true fan."

Yeah baby!

MM is Jason Kidd. Bring me my Coach Bud.

[mraynrand]

https://youtu.be/KGUmfhURKcY

[Pugger]

Uncle Ted, this R2 unit has a bad motivator!

:lol

[Pugger]

If he didn’t mandate that Monty stay in end zone....

It appears Monty was told NOT to bring it out of the end zone. I don't know what more Mac can do besides cutting Ty this week.

[Pugger]

^^^ That's what I've been saying. The 2018 draft was basically a soft re-boot of the 2015 draft. Usually the 'sequel' is worse than the original, but hopefully not in this case.

I like a lot of the kids Gute drafted this past spring.

[red]

It appears Monty was told NOT to bring it out of the end zone. I don't know what more Mac can do besides cutting Ty this week.

you got a link

all i'm seeing is the quote about how at some point, at some unspecified time, the team had onced talked about things to possibly do in some situations

[Pugger]

you got a link

all i'm seeing is the quote about how at some point, at some unspecified time, the team had onced talked about things to possibly do in some situations

https://twitter.com/LilySZhao/status/10 ... 0808257536

[red]

https://twitter.com/LilySZhao/status/10 ... 0808257536

Link doesn’t work, but I’m guessing it’s the same thing I’m now seeing in other places, which means we have a big problem

[mraynrand]

Hue Jackson and Todd Haley are available to take over

[pbmax]

Hue Jackson and Todd Haley are available to take over

No one deserves that fate except the Seahawks. Or the Patriots.

Gil Brandt Twitter has you covered:

There's a multitude of good NFL coaching candidates. If I was hiring, here's what my short list would look like:

1. Jim Schwartz, PHI DC
2. Dave Toub, KC ST coach
3. Kris Richard, DAL DB coach
4. Matt Eberflus, IND DC
5. Lincoln Riley, OKLA HC
6. Jeremy Bates, NYJ OC

[pbmax]

Link doesn’t work, but I’m guessing it’s the same thing I’m now seeing in other places, which means we have a big problem

More Banjo thread look for SB Nation or NFL dot com link for Mike Silver.

[red]

Fat ass is having a presser right now

basically he's saying that people makes mistakes, doesn't sound like monty will be cut or suspended or have any other kind of discipline handed to him

says ty feel really bad, so thats bad enough

[red]

sounds like the fans have turned on m3

the comments on facebook during the live presser are just brutal

[red]

says the safety play was part of the rpo package and a-rod had the chance to throw a slant if he wanted to do that

so rodgers made the piss poor decision on the safety not the coach

[mraynrand]

says the safety play was part of the rpo package and a-rod had the chance to throw a slant if he wanted to do that

so rodgers made the piss poor decision on the safety not the coach

Well everyone, including Bulaga missed the fact the the LB was cheating up. A slant woulda been pretty nice right there.

[mraynrand]

sounds like the fans have turned on m3

the comments on facebook during the live presser are just brutal

What a shock. Everyone here loves him so much.

[mraynrand]

Fat ass is having a presser right now

basically he's saying that people makes mistakes, doesn't sound like monty will be cut or suspended or have any other kind of discipline handed to him

says ty feel really bad, so thats bad enough

My Dad felt the same way when I wrapped his Beemer around that flagpole at 45 mph. "Sure, Son, it's OK, I know you feel bad"

[gbgary]

i just don't see him surviving the offseason.

[George Cumby]

What a shock. Everyone here loves him so much.

TPB wants to have his Love Child.

[red]

i just don't see him surviving the offseason.

he just seems so "oh gosh golly shucks, oh well". just no fire. you can see why the team has no heart, fire, or discipline

it did start to go all trump by taking his frustrations out on the media when an interviewer tried to ask him a question about ty

[mraynrand]

TPB wants to have his Love Child.

That's going too far of course, mostly because no one wants to see that genetic re-combination. But still, as much grief as I give Stubby, I think he's a pretty great coach (and not just in girth). We've discussed and have seen some of the draft picks that haven't worked out, or the few who have been let go too early, but even despite all that, Stubby still keeps it together. I probably am among the few who credit him a lot with Rodger's development, so there's that as well. It does help to have a great QB to cover your mistakes, but it also hurts your chances to get higher picks. I guess Stubby will wear out his welcome, and maybe soon, but don't be surprised if it's not so easy to replace him with a competent coach who can manage today's NFL players.

[red]

florio thinks the whole return plus cover up afterwards shows that fat mike might be a poor coach

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/10/29/ty-montgomerys-move-is-a-poor-reflection-on-mike-mccarthy/

[pbmax]

Well everyone, including Bulaga missed the fact the the LB was cheating up. A slant woulda been pretty nice right there.

Is there a chance the LB was the option guy, unblocked, in the run-pass option?

[pbmax]

That's going too far of course, mostly because no one wants to see that genetic re-combination. But still, as much grief as I give Stubby, I think he's a pretty great coach (and not just in girth). We've discussed and have seen some of the draft picks that haven't worked out, or the few who have been let go too early, but even despite all that, Stubby still keeps it together. I probably am among the few who credit him a lot with Rodger's development, so there's that as well. It does help to have a great QB to cover your mistakes, but it also hurts your chances to get higher picks. I guess Stubby will wear out his welcome, and maybe soon, but don't be surprised if it's not so easy to replace him with a competent coach who can manage today's NFL players.

I am in this camp too. I think his offense is worn out and I am not sure the players are as responsive to him as they were (its an older team though, so perhaps that is natural). But he is a good enough coach that the odds of replacing him and getting better are low. As is very low. As in maybe 2-3 guys if you get it right.

And this is why the Steelers approach to coach and GM meddling is the right way (unless you are Belichick); you have to make that coach and GM get better and on the same page.

After figuring out the offense after his 15 play script, Item #2 for Coach M3's offseason improvement plan should be to hire a clock expert for the booth. And have that guy Taser Rodgers and McCarthy if the play isn't off before the play clock hits zero in camp.

[Joemailman]

Well everyone, including Bulaga missed the fact the the LB was cheating up. A slant woulda been pretty nice right there.

If they go pass, the LB blitzes. So then it's a question of whether Jones picks up the blitzer. Maybe Linsley should have changed the blocking scheme. Not sure Bulaga could have done anything different. He just couldn't get there on time.

[mraynrand]

If they go pass, the LB blitzes. So then it's a question of whether Jones picks up the blitzer. Maybe Linsley should have changed the blocking scheme. Not sure Bulaga could have done anything different. He just couldn't get there on time.

I think you're right about Bulaga - would have to look again. A play fake on a slant might have been the best call. I was surprised they chose to run given the dominance of that line. I think that's Stubby's aggressive confidence in the toughness/effectiveness of 'his guys.' It hurts him sometimes, but I think his players like it a lot and normally respond well to it.

[red]

CBS sports seems to think that fat mike is one of the front runners for the browns job next season

[mraynrand]

CBS sports seems to think that fat mike is one of the front runners for the browns job next season

Even CBS steals from Packerrats

[Carolina_Packer]

...I guess Stubby will wear out his welcome, and maybe soon, but don't be surprised if it's not so easy to replace him with a competent coach who can manage today's NFL players.

Therein lies the quandary for the team last off-season. How tempting was it to just make a break from MM after retiring TT? The concern being how long would it take for a new coach/staff to meet or surpass the level of play we are now seeing with MM, and the clock ticking on AR's career.

I think that no matter who is at the helm, whether MM or any other HC, after a while, unless you continuously innovate or change things up, the opponents will have you figured out, know your tendencies. One way around that is to draft well, and that has been a mixed bag lately. More to the first point, there are many times in the post game commentary when I see people comment that they see MM's play calls a mile away. That's not good. If the fans have it scouted, the other teams do for sure.


Every coach has an expiration date when it's time to just move on. I hope Green Bay has someone else in mind right now because that's where this thing is headed. That takes nothing away from what he has done to this point. It's about the time AR has left to help this team, and not squandering that.

[Fritz]

Therein lies the quandary for the team last off-season. How tempting was it to just make a break from MM after retiring TT? The concern being how long would it take for a new coach/staff to meet or surpass the level of play we are now seeing with MM, and the clock ticking on AR's career.

I think that no matter who is at the helm, whether MM or any other HC, after a while, unless you continuously innovate or change things up, the opponents will have you figured out, know your tendencies. One way around that is to draft well, and that has been a mixed bag lately. More to the first point, there are many times in the post game commentary when I see people comment that they see MM's play calls a mile away. That's not good. If the fans have it scouted, the other teams do for sure.


Every coach has an expiration date when it's time to just move on. I hope Green Bay has someone else in mind right now because that's where this thing is headed. That takes nothing away from what he has done to this point. It's about the time AR has left to help this team, and not squandering that.


It's a tough call, and one I'm glad I don't have to make. If you look at the Detroit Lions, you could see their recent moves as an example of how a poor-man's Green Bay Packer situation could go.

The Lions fired Jim Caldwell last year. On the one hand, he was their most successful coach since - wait for it - Wayne Fontes. He got them to the playoffs a couple of times, which is more than they'd had in a while. Yet he seemed like his ceiling was 9-7, so the GM fired him because he said the team had more talent than a 9-7 record.

So in with the new hotshot assistant, Mike Patricia, from New England. Fast forward to today, and the Lions are drifting at 2-4 and just traded Golden Tate away to the Eagles, essentially writing off the season - for a team that was supposedly more talented than Caldwell's 9-7.

Yet I see the argument for ditching McCarthy - but is that just me thinking it's all stale, or could a new coach rejuvenate this thing? And will Murphy have the balls to make such a call, since he won't let Gute do it?

[mraynrand]

If you look at the Packers coaches, there's a lot of youth there - some internal promotions/some guys doing their job for the first time, the whole defensing TO. So this season is a big transition season. I originally thought it more likely that Murphy/Gute was setting Stubby up for a dismissal, but now, barring a terrible collapse (less than .500) I don't see them ditching Stubby. I think there was recognition that the roster was broken a bit - and still is - and needs more than one year to repair. I might be wrong about 8-7-1 and no playoffs being enough, but I don't see Gute or Poutine wanting to promote Poutine to HC, and it's harder to keep him if you turn over the coach (but not unthinkable). So unless they have some hotshot in mind, Stubby stays. I still think they need to be incredibly lucky to make the playoffs - no more starters injured and starter-level play from some rookies other than J'xander. The quadruple tragedies of the safety position, no pass-rush, a bad right side of the O-line (and even Taylor being marginal!?), and very marginal depth make it tough to survive and win.

[George Cumby]

That's going too far of course, mostly because no one wants to see that genetic re-combination. But still, as much grief as I give Stubby, I think he's a pretty great coach (and not just in girth). We've discussed and have seen some of the draft picks that haven't worked out, or the few who have been let go too early, but even despite all that, Stubby still keeps it together. I probably am among the few who credit him a lot with Rodger's development, so there's that as well. It does help to have a great QB to cover your mistakes, but it also hurts your chances to get higher picks. I guess Stubby will wear out his welcome, and maybe soon, but don't be surprised if it's not so easy to replace him with a competent coach who can manage today's NFL players.

I generally agree. I just think his time has come.