The Linebackers (watch them in rewind at your own risk)

[wist43]

Was rewinding back thru the 49er game and watching Burks and Martinez. Can't say enough bad things about these guys.

Burks in particular... he's so bad, I'm not sure it's even worth it to try and get him up to speed. He has no aptitude for the game of football, let alone instincts to play linebacker. He is, hands down, one of the worst football players I've ever seen.

At 1:20 of the 3rd quarter, he shoots in clean and runs right past the ball as if he didn't know he was supposed to do something about it, lol... he's habitually in poor position to take on blocks or break down, he plays upright and stiff, he takes such bad angles it's beyond baffling... seriously, what the fuck is he doing out there??

He's so bad and lacking in instincts, that I don't think he has a chance.

Martinez is at best a JAG. Congratulations Blake - you're Green Bay's best LB.

This position needs a complete overhaul.

[Fritz]

The problem is how do you overhaul a position without ignoring other areas of need? I don't think those two are as awful as you say, but I can get on board with the idea that the OLB's need a big overhaul - but how? Do you draft two in a row in the first two rounds like GB did with the corners in 2015, and hope it works out better? Do you try to trade for a known commodity at risk of acquiring a player with a shorter shelf life?

Hard to make this stuff all work. But I am intrigued as to whether the Cards would trade Chandler Jones, and if so, what the price would be.

[mraynrand]

Need a draft pick (or two) and a free agent to fill OLB position(s) next year.

Both have to work out. Any team building depends on accurately targeting players, but it also depends on luck. Bad work by TT and crew led to Randall/Rollins/Jones/Spriggs/Murphy/Fackrell/Biegel being unable to replace the secondary, the Right tackle, backup LT, and the OLB positions. Bad luck led to Shields having concussion problems that killed their plan to have him as a shutdown corner for at least four years. Because they had to compensate for those fails by picking King, J'xander, Jackson, Cole Madison(lol), ---, and --- (--- indicates useless undrafted OLBs) they are a total mess at LB.

[Teamcheez1]

I think it may be a little early to give up on Oren Burks after playing only 3 NFL games.

[mraynrand]

I think it may be a little early to give up on Oren Burks after playing only 3 NFL games.

yep. I've seen some good stuff from the guy, particularly in pass coverage, which is what they probably wanted most from him. Wist is right though about some bad angles and inability to shed blocks. But some cases of failed block shedding originate from marginal play up front.

[Joemailman]

I think it may be a little early to give up on Oren Burks after playing only 3 NFL games.

Not for Wist though. He knew Burks couldn't play early on.

https://www.wnd.com/files/2012/10/pee-wee-football.jpg

[pbmax]

^

Positives: Good pad level

Negatives: Leaves feet too much. Or perhaps too late.

[wist43]

What I've seen of Burks in the NFL is exactly what he was doing in college. Maybe they can coach him up and get him past his lack of instincts... let's hope so.

As for Martinez, a team can get by with him as a stop gap - assuming he was your weak link, but given that he's probably our best LB, he has nowhere to hide.

This organization has thumbed its nose at LB for years. It's gotten to the point that the position is so bad, that it ripples throughout the whole team. Just a colossal mess.

[wist43]

I think it may be a little early to give up on Oren Burks after playing only 3 NFL games.

We cant give up on him... play him all year - come what may; and, see if he comes around. The early returns are not good though. For me, it's his complete and utter lack of instincts for the game... I just can't fathom how someone can be that lost on a football field.

[Bretsky]

Wisty…...is is Dom Capers fault that the LB's are so bad, or Ted Thompson's ? I'm slowly guiding you through your rehab :)

[mraynrand]

I just can't fathom how someone can be that lost on a football field. i can


DON'T TALK TO ME ALLRIGHT? KNOCK IT OFF!!!


http://blogimages.thescore.com/nfl/files/2011/12/ryan-leaf2.jpg

[wist43]

Wisty…...is is Dom Capers fault that the LB's are so bad, or Ted Thompson's ? I'm slowly guiding you through your rehab :)

I can't partake of my higher power til I retire I fear; hence, no need of a 12 step program ;)

I do hope Burks gets it figured out, but he's soooooo bad, I just don't think he was put on this earth to be a football player. Just put the tape on and slomo thru the plays... the guy is lost. Which is what his college tape looks like. He's just not a natural.

[mraynrand]

We cant give up on him... play him all year - come what may; and, see if he comes around. The early returns are not good though. For me, it's his complete and utter lack of instincts for the game... I just can't fathom how someone can be that lost on a football field.


You can't draft Shazier in the third round (Burks) and you can't get White JPP in the third or fourth (Fackrell Biegel).

[pbmax]

You can't draft Shazier in the third round (Burks) and you can't get White JPP in the third or fourth (Fackrell Biegel).

You can get Justin Tuck in the third. Its not impossible, but the Packers track record suggests its not going to happen on the D line or LB.

[wist43]

There is a long, long list of LBers the Packers could have had in the late 1st and later, that many of us in here identified, that went on to be very good players.

The Packers, as an organization, don't get it. I think it goes deeper than TT, which is why I want them to do some serious self-scouting in the scouting dept and find out why we're missing these guys. Look at the scouts writeups on guys, and if they're consistently wrong - get rid of that scout. It's long since overdue to shake up the scouting dept.

[mraynrand]

You can get Justin Tuck in the third. Its not impossible, but the Packers track record suggests its not going to happen on the D line or LB.


Sure, but like Wist said, they missed. And it looks like they missed on Randall, Rollins, Jones, and Spriggs. With Shields' concussions that's five guys who should be starters. And then they wold have used J'xander and Jackson picks on pass rushers. With TT gone, and not trying vicariously draft his HOF son at LB anymore, the Packers might have a chance.

[Rutnstrut]

It all boils down to the Packers draft philosophy. Which is, fuck it pick anyone, we've got Rodgers.

[run pMc]

I think Burks is new-ish to the LB position -- he started as a Safety...so there might be some finer points he's not picked up. He had a rep for trouble shedding blocks and in the run game, and I think he'll get better. He's the best athlete they have at ILB (I'm not counting Josh Jones) so you almost have to play him. Antonio Morrison can stuff a RB, but he can't cover a back or TE. Burks is a much faster, more fluid athlete, and opposing teams have feasted on ILB mismatches so much they play Whitehead as a LB/S.

He may not turn out to be any good (I hope he pans out), but I think it's too early. Wist -- your watching him is worthwhile -- it will be interesting to see if he's better by end of season or start of next season.

[wist43]

I think Burks is new-ish to the LB position -- he started as a Safety...so there might be some finer points he's not picked up. He had a rep for trouble shedding blocks and in the run game, and I think he'll get better. He's the best athlete they have at ILB (I'm not counting Josh Jones) so you almost have to play him. Antonio Morrison can stuff a RB, but he can't cover a back or TE. Burks is a much faster, more fluid athlete, and opposing teams have feasted on ILB mismatches so much they play Whitehead as a LB/S.

He may not turn out to be any good (I hope he pans out), but I think it's too early. Wist -- your watching him is worthwhile -- it will be interesting to see if he's better by end of season or start of next season.

He takes bad angles - consistently. That's a big red flag. He did the same things in college... based on what I saw of his college tape, he shouldn't have been drafted at all, let alone the 3rd round.

Go back to the point in the game where the SF FB fumbled, can't remember where it was. Watch Burks on that play.

[run pMc]

He takes bad angles - consistently. That's a big red flag. He did the same things in college... based on what I saw of his college tape, he shouldn't have been drafted at all, let alone the 3rd round.

Go back to the point in the game where the SF FB fumbled, can't remember where it was. Watch Burks on that play.

I'll have to watch that again. That is a concern, although it can be coached.
SF's RBs are relative blazers -- both were timed in the 4.4's. Nick Collins occasionally took some pretty atrocious angles, especially during his first 3 seasons.
I suppose I'm making excuses for him, but that's only because I wouldn't give up on him just yet. He has a chance to get better. The question is whether "better" is good enough. They don't have much for playmakers at LB (ILB or OLB), let alone "above average".

[run pMc]

This position needs a complete overhaul.

I mostly agree with this. I think Clay is decent but overpaid at this point. Same on Perry. Those guys are on their 2nd contracts and have been hurt/beat up from going up against 320lb T's. Fackrell is a ST guy, Gilbert is depth. That's all they got outside. Finding another quality pass rusher (or two) at OLB would make a big difference, regardless of who the DC is.

ILB is less of a concern for me because they could plug a safety in there in a pinch, or play one ILB there and go nickel (ostensibly the modern NFL's base defense). They've drafted Burks, Martinez, and Ryan there, and while none have been lights out, Martinez is the best of them and he's serviceable. I'd consider him a step up from JAG - he's better than AJ Hawk, not quite on the level of a Desmond Bishop or Nick Barnett.

Drafting all those corners, missing on Biegel, Fackrell, etc., has cost them, and they'll have to spend some draft capital (and certainly cap space).

With this being Clay's last season on his contract, do you bring him back? If so, what do you offer him? Would you move him inside?

[3irty1]

Inside linebacker and halfback are two positions where rookies who are going to be good seem to be pretty decent right away. Nobody really learns instincts or vision. We'll see plenty more Burks simply because the Packers have to piss with the cock they've got but he's probably a turd.

I don't have a problem with Martinez. If he's your best that's not good but if he's your worst then you're doing great. Same with Perry. If Clay can man that other inside spot and go from liability to a net positive, we may just be looking for a single edge rusher to make a decent starting lineup. The depth is ready for a turnover for sure.

[Fritz]

Inside linebacker and halfback are two positions where rookies who are going to be good seem to be pretty decent right away. Nobody really learns instincts or vision. We'll see plenty more Burks simply because the Packers have to piss with the cock they've got but he's probably a turd.

I don't have a problem with Martinez. If he's your best that's not good but if he's your worst then you're doing great. Same with Perry. If Clay can man that other inside spot and go from liability to a net positive, we may just be looking for a single edge rusher to make a decent starting lineup. The depth is ready for a turnover for sure.

3irty, you're generally an intelligent poster, and I enjoy your analysis, but this mixed metaphor made me laugh. If they have to piss with the cock they have, wouldn't Burks be, perhaps, a tiny little wiener (if you're seeing him as Wist would) or as a massive dong?

[3irty1]

3irty, you're generally an intelligent poster, and I enjoy your analysis, but this mixed metaphor made me laugh. If they have to piss with the cock they have, wouldn't Burks be, perhaps, a tiny little wiener (if you're seeing him as Wist would) or as a massive dong?

Well I had typed "cheese covered aardvark-looking bastard jammed with kidney stones" but this is a family forum.

[gbgary]

Was rewinding back thru the 49er game and watching Burks and Martinez. Can't say enough bad things about these guys.

Burks in particular... he's so bad, I'm not sure it's even worth it to try and get him up to speed. He has no aptitude for the game of football, let alone instincts to play linebacker. He is, hands down, one of the worst football players I've ever seen.

At 1:20 of the 3rd quarter, he shoots in clean and runs right past the ball as if he didn't know he was supposed to do something about it, lol... he's habitually in poor position to take on blocks or break down, he plays upright and stiff, he takes such bad angles it's beyond baffling... seriously, what the fuck is he doing out there??

He's so bad and lacking in instincts, that I don't think he has a chance.

Martinez is at best a JAG. Congratulations Blake - you're Green Bay's best LB.

This position needs a complete overhaul.

i think that's what they'll do in the draft and free agency in the off-season.

[gbgary]

The problem is how do you overhaul a position without ignoring other areas of need? I don't think those two are as awful as you say, but I can get on board with the idea that the OLB's need a big overhaul - but how? Do you draft two in a row in the first two rounds like GB did with the corners in 2015, and hope it works out better? Do you try to trade for a known commodity at risk of acquiring a player with a shorter shelf life?

Hard to make this stuff all work. But I am intrigued as to whether the Cards would trade Chandler Jones, and if so, what the price would be.

a Mackish deal since he set the market i think. maybe a tad less but i wouldn't count on it.

[gbgary]

the Packers have to piss with the cock they've got but he's probably a turd.


lol

too soon but his college tape wasn't great by any means.

[pbmax]

Alright, that tears it. I am going to have to watch the San Fran game.

When it was just wist moaning about linebackers, I assumed the sun had just risen in the east. But now Rand and 3irty1 and bad mouthing them. Highly leveraged tape eating situation.

BTW, bailing on a rookie is often unwise. Took Brian Wiliams 3 years (and one injury) to learn the Will position. Which is effectively what Burks is playing in that passing down base 3-4 (Daniels-Clark-LowryArmy, CMIII-Ponch-Burks-Perry).

[mraynrand]

We'll see plenty more Burks simply because the Packers have to piss with the cock they've got but he's probably a turd.


Harlanophobe

[mraynrand]

Alright, that tears it. I am going to have to watch the San Fran game.

When it was just wist moaning about linebackers, I assumed the sun had just risen in the east. But now Rand and 3irty1 and bad mouthing them. Highly leveraged tape eating situation..

There just isn't all that much to be excited about. The LBs are Meh at best. ON the line, Clark and Daniels are one Pro Bowl pick between them. Then there's Lowry, Gilbert, Fackrell... bleecccch.

If the secondary isn't dominant, they can't play defense against a good QB.

[wist43]

3irty, you're generally an intelligent poster, and I enjoy your analysis, but this mixed metaphor made me laugh. If they have to piss with the cock they have, wouldn't Burks be, perhaps, a tiny little wiener (if you're seeing him as Wist would) or as a massive dong?

Good gravy dude, lol... slap a cheesy 1970's moustache on him and you'd have yourself a grainy, vintage porno. ;)

[wist43]

Alright, that tears it. I am going to have to watch the San Fran game.

When it was just wist moaning about linebackers, I assumed the sun had just risen in the east. But now Rand and 3irty1 and bad mouthing them. Highly leveraged tape eating situation.

BTW, bailing on a rookie is often unwise. Took Brian Wiliams 3 years (and one injury) to learn the Will position. Which is effectively what Burks is playing in that passing down base 3-4 (Daniels-Clark-LowryArmy, CMIII-Ponch-Burks-Perry).

Lol... you guys are crackin me up tonight :)

[Carolina_Packer]

There is a long, long list of LBers the Packers could have had in the late 1st and later, that many of us in here identified, that went on to be very good players.

The Packers, as an organization, don't get it. I think it goes deeper than TT, which is why I want them to do some serious self-scouting in the scouting dept and find out why we're missing these guys. Look at the scouts writeups on guys, and if they're consistently wrong - get rid of that scout. It's long since overdue to shake up the scouting dept.


For sure. 2012, take Lavante David instead of Jerel Worthy. I'm sure other people could come up with wasted picks, but that one is glaring. Who could we have gotten for Kyrie Thornton a few years ago when nobody saw him as a third rounder?

Everyone wants to lay it all on TT, but I'm sure there are still people working for the organization, possibly even Gutey himself at the time, who brought their recommendations to TT, and are still responsible for bringing them to Gutey. Sure, TT made the ultimate pick, but these were the guys making the recommendations. Nobody gets it right all the time, but you have to get it right enough of the time to look competent. Do not pick a guy to play corner who should be playing safety (Randall). Do not pick a guy who only showed out for one year at a mid-major, but has multi-sport athletic ability (Rollins). Too many swings and misses on D. Go George Costanza and do the opposite next time.

[pbmax]

FA is terrible. Drafting for need is a cry for help that will never arrive.

Let Emeritus Ted be Ted.

[mraynrand]

FA is terrible.

Obviously not always.



Drafting for need is a cry for help that will never arrive.

Most teams draft for need, but not strictly. Wherever a team picks, they probably have several players that they think are worthy of that draft spot. Then they pick from among those according to need. Obviously, if they really need an OLB mid first round, they probably won't reach for a second round grade OLB if CB, Tackle, WR are at their spot. But if those three positions are loaded, them might be tempted to trade down. Also, they will look at projected value and players in the following rounds. It's a total team strategy, and no team can really take exclusively BPA.



Let Emeritus Ted be Ted.
Take him to Talos Four where he can hang to with some hottie - in his mind...
https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.AC9aMDP5pZjhr4iq4FHGjwHaFj&pid=Api&w=600&h=450&rs=1

[run pMc]

For sure. 2012, take Lavante David instead of Jerel Worthy. I'm sure other people could come up with wasted picks, but that one is glaring. Who could we have gotten for Kyrie Thornton a few years ago when nobody saw him as a third rounder?


Just in that 2014 draft, you could have picked a few better replacement players
position for position:
Kyrie Thornton -> DaQuan Jones
Richard Rodgers -> Trade down, take Trey Burton in R6-7.
Carl Bradford -> Telvin Smith

Other players available in R3-4:
John Brown, Donte Moncrief, Martavius Bryant
Tre Boston, Bashaud Breeland (lol),
Devonta Freeman, James White

Not a lot of great players in those mid-later rounds, but Ted was gambling.

Edit: I find it interesting to see who else was available moreso than to play "what-if"...that's not helpful and hindsight being 20/20 unfair.

[mraynrand]

Edit: I find it interesting to see who else was available moreso than to play "what-if"...that's not helpful and hindsight being 20/20 unfair.

True. Hindsight can build a helluva roster from later round picks!

[wist43]

True. Hindsight can build a helluva roster from later round picks!

It's more than that though... most if us in here have recognized the need for top flight front seven players - and b/c of that we have gone out of our way to identify players we thought fit the bill.

From run pMc's list - I wanted Telvin Smith, and he went in the 5th round. Turned out to be a hell of a player. TT chose Bradford, and he's now selling insurance.

Couple years ago, I wanted McKinney - he's in Houston and is a damn good player. TT chose Randall and he's now a bust in Cleveland.

There's something very much amiss in how the Packers evaluate defensive players - and they need to root that out of their scouting dept.

[mraynrand]

It's more than that though... most if us in here have recognized the need for top flight front seven players - and b/c of that we have gone out of our way to identify players we thought fit the bill.

From run pMc's list - I wanted Telvin Smith, and he went in the 5th round. Turned out to be a hell of a player. TT chose Bradford, and he's now selling insurance.

Couple years ago, I wanted McKinney - he's in Houston and is a damn good player. TT chose Randall and he's now a bust in Cleveland.

There's something very much amiss in how the Packers evaluate defensive players - and they need to root that out of their scouting dept.

SIGN HIM UP! SIGN HIM UP!

[run pMc]

There's something very much amiss in how the Packers evaluate defensive players - and they need to root that out of their scouting dept.

Agree. I admit to being encouraged by Gute's first draft -- I think the rookie CB's are keepers, the punter looks good, and I think at least 1-2 of the WRs will pan out. It's entirely possible that those who misevaluated defensive players have left (Highsmith, Wolf,...). Hard to say. Some years just have less talent when you look back and read thru the list of players picked. And then there's the fact that if teams would have known how Brady or Rodgers were gonna turn out they woulda picked them #1. The Bears picked Ego Ferguson over Davante Adams (and ironically, Allen Robinson)...see how that turned out.

System/organization fit matters too. I suspect Rodgers would've flailed as badly (if not more) than Alex Smith if he'd been picked first and thrown into the starting lineup on day 1. SF was a mess back then.

One last comment: the physical measurements and combine performances are nice, but I'm becoming convinced a lot of what sets players apart -- at least at certain positions -- is the mental side.

There are so many pieces to the scouting puzzle that I don't have a problem leaving it to the experts. Doesn't mean I don't have an opinion. I'm cautiously optimistic that they will find the right players for Pettine; trouble is it might take another season or two. :(

[wist43]

FA is terrible. Drafting for need is a cry for help that will never arrive.

Let Emeritus Ted be Ted.

I say we dispense some vigilante justice. Find a rope, a tree, and tie max into the saddle ;)

If Burks doesn't show improvement this offseason?? Cut him.