Montgomery to Ravens

[pbmax]

Well, he is gone for a seventh round pick.

Adam Schefter @AdamSchefter
Ravens are trading a 7th-round pick in 2020 draft to Packers for Ty Montgomery, per source. Packers clearly wanted to move on, and so did Montgomery.

[Tony Oday]

Wow they overpaid.

[pbmax]

Wilde points out they might have gotten a better pick as a compensatory if he signed elsewhere. Though it would have been a 2021 pick I think.

[Willard]

Well, he is gone for a seventh round pick.

Adam Schefter @AdamSchefter
Ravens are trading a 7th-round pick in 2020 draft to Packers for Ty Montgomery, per source. Packers clearly wanted to move on, and so did Montgomery.
That leaves Jake Ryan as the lone survivor of the 2015 draft class. Yikes.

[texaspackerbacker]

Hallelujah. It might have been better if they'd gotten something more for him, but this trade makes a statement: get the fuck outta here, we don't want ya.

[red]

Mike tell us one thing yesterday in his presser that Monty did nothing wrong, and then basically cuts him less then 24 hours later

[mraynrand]

Mike tell us one thing yesterday in his presser that Monty did nothing wrong, and then basically cuts him less then 24 hours later

That tells his players that he won't hang them out to dry in public. You may not like it, but the players must, dontcha think?

[pbmax]

That tells his players that he won't hang them out to dry in public. You may not like it, but the players must, dontcha think?

Could also be Gute exercising his authority.

[Carolina_Packer]

A coach being disingenuous to the press? Next thing you'll tell me that man landed on the moon.

[Joemailman]

Mike tell us one thing yesterday in his presser that Monty did nothing wrong, and then basically cuts him less then 24 hours later

Mike made it clear Montgomery made a mistake.

Mike isn't the GM.

Best thing for Packers and Montgomery. Everybody can move on.

[mraynrand]

Could also be Gute exercising his authority.

sure, both could be true at the same time. One small step for Stubby, one large step for the GM.

[Tony Oday]

Best thing about this trade is the carries should go to Jones!

[gbgary]

i was hoping it would be a trade and not a release. it worked out great. disgruntled player gone and to a team not on the upcoming schedule.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Best thing for Packers and Montgomery. Everybody can move on.

Damage control. But still, GB will have to fill-in their RB depth with a less talented player.

[pbmax]

Best thing about this trade is the carries should go to Jones!

His name is Stubby for a reason.

[Fritz]

Damage control. But still, GB will have to fill-in their RB depth with a less talented player.

I hear Davante Mays is available.

[Joemailman]

I hear Davante Mays is available.

Browns signed him to their practice squad last week.

[Fritz]

Browns signed him to their practice squad last week.

Er, I meant available for when MM takes over in Cleveland.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

[George Cumby]

That tells his players that he won't hang them out to dry in public. You may not like it, but the players must, dontcha think?

This. Whatever his shortcomings, Fat Mike, soon to be ex coach of the GreenBay Packers, shows good leadership skills and doesn’t under bus his guys.

[run pMc]

Well, the pick won't amount to much, but at least they got something for a player many were calling for the team to cut.
I wish Ty the best in BAL and beyond, unless he plays against GB. I wouldn't be surprised if they promote a FB or sign that Darius Jackson guy back on the 53. (or just bring Trevor Davis off IR to be PR/KR.)

https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2018/10/30/reports-packers-trade-ty-montgomery-ravens-2020-7th-round-pick/1821399002/

The trade also essentially wipes away the 2015 draft class for the Packers:

First round: Damarious Randall, S – traded to Cleveland on March 9 for DeShone Kizer
Second round: Quinten Rollins, CB – released with an injury settlement on Sept. 10.
Third round: Ty Montgomery, WR – traded to Baltimore on Oct. 30.
Fourth round: Jake Ryan, LB – on Packers injured reserve
Fifth round: Brett Hundley, QB – traded to Seattle on Aug. 29.
Sixth round: Aaron Ripkowski, FB – cut by team on Sept. 1.
Sixth round: Christian Ringo, DE – cut by team in September, 2017.
Seventh round: Kennard Backman, TE – cut by team August, 2016.

Between 2014 and 2015, Ted really whiffed...or Gute is cleaning house? (Both.)

[SavedByGrace]

OK, before I rant, let me make one thing clear: I DO agree that Ty needed to go. If reports were true, he had lost the support of teammates in the locker room. That would have just ended up being toxic. Now the man and the team can move on.

That being said, I found it curious that Ty was quoted as saying that he was unclear in his role on the team. I just can't help thinking that we lacked really any creativity in using Ty. I can understand his frustration. The guy had some very solid games as a WR, as well as a few good ones as an RB. Why could Stubby not have used him in more of a "James White" role, running him out of the backfield and using him as a receiver? The same could be said of Cobb. There is zero creativity from our coaches on using skill players. You look at a guy like Tyreek Hill (I get that neither Ty or Cobb are on that level) but couldn't they be used similarly? Now, more than ever, I am on board with 0ur coaches and O-coordinators being "freshened up."

[Patler]

Packers might get nothing out of this. The 7th round pick is described as "conditional" on several sites. No idea what the conditions are. (performance? roster longevity? re-signing for 2019?)

[red]

Well, the pick won't amount to much, but at least they got something for a player many were calling for the team to cut.
I wish Ty the best in BAL and beyond, unless he plays against GB. I wouldn't be surprised if they promote a FB or sign that Darius Jackson guy back on the 53. (or just bring Trevor Davis off IR to be PR/KR.)

https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2018/10/30/reports-packers-trade-ty-montgomery-ravens-2020-7th-round-pick/1821399002/


Between 2014 and 2015, Ted really whiffed...or Gute is cleaning house? (Both.)

and only 1 player remains from 2013

TT was not a guru, and destroyed this team

[Bretsky]

and only 1 player remains from 2013

TT was not a guru, and destroyed this team





THANKSTED for brining us AROD...but not a whole lot more

[mraynrand]

No idea what the conditions are.

no fumbles after bringing it out against orders, I'm sure.

[pbmax]

OK, before I rant, let me make one thing clear: I DO agree that Ty needed to go. If reports were true, he had lost the support of teammates in the locker room. That would have just ended up being toxic. Now the man and the team can move on.

That being said, I found it curious that Ty was quoted as saying that he was unclear in his role on the team. I just can't help thinking that we lacked really any creativity in using Ty. I can understand his frustration. The guy had some very solid games as a WR, as well as a few good ones as an RB. Why could Stubby not have used him in more of a "James White" role, running him out of the backfield and using him as a receiver? The same could be said of Cobb. There is zero creativity from our coaches on using skill players. You look at a guy like Tyreek Hill (I get that neither Ty or Cobb are on that level) but couldn't they be used similarly? Now, more than ever, I am on board with 0ur coaches and O-coordinators being "freshened up."

There were doing that, not with Cobb but with Monty. And a few nice runs or catches, but overall it wasn't working well. But screens, blocking first than catch the ball out of the backfield, running occasionally from shotgun, he was doing all this stuff.

It never looked like Hill and KC, but it looks a lot like NE with him in there. Packers have not used the short game as consistently well as the Patriots. But it wasn't his role, it just wasn't as effective as Jones.

[Sparkey]

He was supposedly on the field because he was "better" at picking up the blitx and line stunts...... Then he missed a line stunt and Donald pummeled Rodgers and soon there after tries to return a kick from the endzone and fumbles. Gameover, both for the Packers and for him.

Often times, trying to DO MORE results in LESS.

[Pugger]

That tells his players that he won't hang them out to dry in public. You may not like it, but the players must, dontcha think?

Yes, Stubby rarely throws his players under the bus even if the player deserves it.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2018/10/30/silverstein-packers-put-house-order-pair-necessary-deals/1821324002/

[Pugger]

THANKSTED for brining us AROD...but not a whole lot more

Yes, his last 3 drafts were not so hot but he was the architect of the 2010 team. If we want to blame anybody we should be directing our ire at Mark Murphy for not moving on from Ted 2 years ago.

[mraynrand]

He was supposedly on the field because he was "better" at picking up the blitx and line stunts...... Then he missed a line stunt and Donald pummeled Rodgers and soon there after tries to return a kick from the endzone and fumbles. Gameover, both for the Packers and for him.

Often times, trying to DO MORE results in LESS.

This is a really important point. I was blaming Taylor exclusively for that whiff on 3rd and 6, but Monty may have made the wrong read on his protection.

[Harlan Huckleby]

There were doing that, not with Cobb but with Monty. And a few nice runs or catches, but overall it wasn't working well. But screens, blocking first than catch the ball out of the backfield, running occasionally from shotgun, he was doing all this stuff.

I don't remember Monty catching passes - maybe they flipped him some screens or checkdowns. I barely remember those plays. Why not occasionally send him down field on pass routes?

I agree with SavedbyGrace that the Packers mostly tried to use him like a traditional running back, which Monty certainly is not.

[pbmax]

I don't remember Monty catching passes - maybe they flipped him some screens or checkdowns. I barely remember those plays. Why not occasionally send him down field on pass routes?

I agree with SavedbyGrace that the Packers mostly tried to use him like a traditional running back, which Monty certainly is not.

They do, though last year I think they liked passing to Wiliams most. But the most common route is to check pass pro then leak out to a route. Rodgers rarely takes that option though.

[pbmax]

There is a simple scheme fix for the Montgomery problem.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBWYvCo8Rvw

[Carolina_Packer]

and only 1 player remains from 2013

TT was not a guru, and destroyed this team

I wonder how many of those players no longer on the roster from previous drafts were scouted and recommended by Gutey when he was working for TT. :whaa: Doh!

[Anti-Polar Bear]

There is a simple scheme fix for the Montgomery problem.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBWYvCo8Rvw

A safety? Looks like Monty’s feet crossed the end zone before the teammate tackle.

[ThunderDan]

A safety? Looks like Monty’s feet crossed the end zone before the teammate tackle.

Once again showing you have no football knowledge. It's the ball dumbass not the feet that have to cross the plane.

It even says that in the video. :bang:

[KYPack]

Once again showing you have no football knowledge. It's the ball dumbass not the feet that have to cross the plane.

It even says that in the video. :bang:

I know, man. I know.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Once again showing you have no football knowledge. It's the ball dumbass not the feet that have to cross the plane.

It even says that in the video. :bang:

Now i ain’t a fuckin Queen fan, but in my glorious youth, I saw plenty of Cris Carter sideline catches where the rock flew OB, but were ruled complete cos Carter had both feet inbounds.

[Harlan Huckleby]

There is a simple scheme fix for the Montgomery problem.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBWYvCo8Rvw

Oh my fucking God. That is precious.

There may have been some helmet-to-helmet on the hit, otherwise excellent judgement and execution.

[Harlan Huckleby]

They do, though last year I think they liked passing to Wiliams most. But the most common route is to check pass pro then leak out to a route. Rodgers rarely takes that option though.

I remember even old thunder thighs Edgar Bennett would run pass routes 20 yards downfield. Why not let ex-WR Monty do some sophisticated patterns downfield with some linebacker trying to cover? I suppose the answer may be that the pass protection is not good enough to risk it.

The west coast offense used to feature fullbacks who could block for the running game, plus run some short pass patterns. Not sure why I mention this now. Wish we had triple threat, athletic fullbacks back in the game. I always like teams that use backs outta the backfield on patterns, not just a slot guy who has a safety spying him. Element of surprise.

[Cheesehead Craig]

I remember even old thunder thighs Edgar Bennett would run pass routes 20 yards downfield. Why not let ex-WR Monty do some sophisticated patterns downfield with some linebacker trying to cover? I suppose the answer may be that the pass protection is not good enough to risk it.

The west coast offense used to feature fullbacks who could block for the running game, plus run some short pass patterns. Not sure why I mention this now. Wish we had triple threat, athletic fullbacks back in the game. I always like teams that use backs outta the backfield on patterns, not just a slot guy who has a safety spying him. Element of surprise.

Unless he can do the William Henderson hurdle, no thanks.

[Smidgeon]

I remember even old thunder thighs Edgar Bennett would run pass routes 20 yards downfield. Why not let ex-WR Monty do some sophisticated patterns downfield with some linebacker trying to cover? I suppose the answer may be that the pass protection is not good enough to risk it.

The west coast offense used to feature fullbacks who could block for the running game, plus run some short pass patterns. Not sure why I mention this now. Wish we had triple threat, athletic fullbacks back in the game. I always like teams that use backs outta the backfield on patterns, not just a slot guy who has a safety spying him. Element of surprise.

If any RB could catch 20 yard routes, it should have been Monty. He was drafted and made an NFL roster as a WR. Not only that, but he was also getting playing time on a Rodgers' led team as a WR. I usually refrain from questioning play calls and design because I'm not knowledgeable enough to critique those, but Monty seems like a huge missed opportunity.

[Fosco33]

I tend to agree that we haven’t maxed Ty or people like Cobb. But - with where this team is at - Ty never fit in. They used him as a traditional Rb for a period and he was oft injured. I hope he does well with the Ravens.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I hope he does well with the Ravens.
I'll wish him luck the old showbiz way, "Break a leg!"

[bobblehead]

and only 1 player remains from 2013

TT was not a guru, and destroyed this team

Plenty of TT picks that arent' utilized by MM go on and are successful elsewhere.

[bobblehead]

THANKSTED for brining us AROD...but not a whole lot more

Kenny Clark, Bahktieri, Blake Matinez, Clay, Devante Adams, Micah Hyde, Casey Hayward, Kevin King(aprh)

I could do this all day. MM is a horseshit coach at this point. TT didn't lose his ability to spot talent, MM lost his ability to utilize it.

[mraynrand]

... Devante Adams...TT didn't lose his ability to spot talent, MM lost his ability to utilize it.

:huh:

[bobblehead]

:huh:

Clearly you missed the period and paragraph break. Those were two different points and the point being Ted Thompson drafted a lot of good players

Well done MSM reporter.

[bobblehead]

mraynrand....is....as....dumb....as....woodbuck

C what I did there.

[pbmax]

Is there a chance Ted was getting shoved around in the later years? Or if not shoved around, people around him were agreeing to moves that weren't really Ted like?

Tom Oates gave the whole trading scenario the stamp of columnist approval (addition by subtraction) *. He also draws a line from Sitton and Randle to these moves, getting rid of players to avoid disgruntlement in the locker room, where everything needs to be gruntled to operate at peak efficiency.

Sitton was not a long term solution and they obviously tested out Taylor for an entire camp and preseason to be sure, but that move did not improve the product on the field. Randall was the best CB of a team that played terribly in the backend. I think he was a functional pro CB who was tossed to improve someone's morale.

Dix was traded to get a better pick that they would have gotten as a comp pick. Dumping Monty made a few players happy and might help the backfield congestion problem (we'll see about that) and reduce the infighting.

Hayward was a casualty of the market, but in hindsight should have been offered more than he was by the Packers. Hyde was given away due to Burnett; now Morgan was a player they should have traded for a pick.

This is now a team that has lots of interesting motives for dumping payers, when previously the only question was were you likely more talented than the other guy who would be released OR were you cheaper and almost as good as a veteran they could dump.


* But like Silverstein, he really strains to see where shipping Dix out actually improves the team.

[Bretsky]

Kenny Clark, Bahktieri, Blake Matinez, Clay, Devante Adams, Micah Hyde, Casey Hayward, Kevin King(aprh)

I could do this all day. MM is a horseshit coach at this point. TT didn't lose his ability to spot talent, MM lost his ability to utilize it.



Want me to list the crap picks ?

Get out a bigger note pad

[call_me_ishmael]

Kenny Clark, Bahktieri, Blake Matinez, Clay, Devante Adams, Micah Hyde, Casey Hayward, Kevin King(aprh)

I could do this all day. MM is a horseshit coach at this point. TT didn't lose his ability to spot talent, MM lost his ability to utilize it.

Maybe both things are true, but it is an undeniable fact that the quality of players drafted and the amount of players the Packers opted to retain on second contracts dwindled big time in recent years. I did a comprehensive analysis that is pretty indisputable. 2015 looked promising even as recently as last year, only to see Randall jettisoned for being a cancer and Rollins never recovering from injury. The stark reality does not match your perception.

It's totally unfair to acknowledge what a great player that Casey Hayward is while ignoring the fact that Teddy T thought he wasn't so hot and let him walk for nothing. Same with Hyde, etc. The most important and least frequently stated part of draft and develop philosophy is the third part, draft, develop, retain.

[pbmax]

It's totally unfair to acknowledge what a great player that Casey Hayward is while ignoring the fact that Teddy T thought he wasn't so hot and let him walk for nothing. Same with Hyde, etc. The most important and least frequently stated part of draft and develop philosophy is the third part, draft, develop, retain.

These two are reasons I am not so sure the drafting was as terrible as the roster list makes it out to be.

Hayward was let go because of recent investments in young players and an injury history. Plus an ill fit in the defense at the time.

Hyde was let go because he wasn't going to unseat Burnett. In hindsight, they should have traded Burnett and kept Hyde.

[mraynrand]

Clearly you missed the period and paragraph break. Those were two different points and the point being Ted Thompson drafted a lot of good players

Well done MSM reporter.

I was making the point that Stubby has done just fine in utilizing Adams.

[mraynrand]

C what I did there.

fuck...off

[bobblehead]

I was making the point that Stubby has done just fine in utilizing Adams.

I get that. I didn't say he NEVER utilizes anyone. I said he is stubby. He refused to utilize Monty the way he should have, and for several seasons he refused to hand Cobb the ball when the D dictates it. He has no clue how to utilize a multi threat TE. He is in fact stubby. RB's are for pass blocking and running. TE can catch or block...not both. My tackles don't need any help on the best in the game until after ARod gets hammered a few times. My guards don't need help until they give up a safety. I can do this all day.

And to bretsky's point....I put TTs drafts against most anyone over any 7 year period.

[call_me_ishmael]

These two are reasons I am not so sure the drafting was as terrible as the roster list makes it out to be.

Hayward was let go because of recent investments in young players and an injury history. Plus an ill fit in the defense at the time.

Hyde was let go because he wasn't going to unseat Burnett. In hindsight, they should have traded Burnett and kept Hyde.

I don’t disagree but bottom line is they let players they should have retained or capitalized upon walk out the door.

[Joemailman]

I don’t disagree but bottom line is they let players they should have retained or capitalized upon walk out the door.

When marginal starters like Hyde and Hayward leave and excel elsewhere, you have to look at the coaching. As in Capers. The logical conclusion woild be that MM kept Capers around too long. But I wonder if it's a coincidence that TT and Capers were shown the door at bazically the same time.

[Harlan Huckleby]

When marginal starters like Hyde and Hayward leave and excel elsewhere, you have to look at the coaching.
The thing with Hyde, I thought he was good and improving every year. His post pack play is not surprising.

I do remember people in this forum jumping on his ass for being too slow, if my rickety memory is working. So he was no all-pro.

[Patler]

When marginal starters like Hyde and Hayward leave and excel elsewhere, you have to look at the coaching. As in Capers. The logical conclusion woild be that MM kept Capers around too long.

Good point. As a GM, why would you invest large contracts in players the coaching staff has not used in featured roles after four years? You can't pay backups like starters, the salary cap won't allow you to. The way the coaching staff used Hayward and Hyde did not justify the Packers giving them contracts like they received from other teams.

[pbmax]

When marginal starters like Hyde and Hayward leave and excel elsewhere, you have to look at the coaching. As in Capers. The logical conclusion woild be that MM kept Capers around too long. But I wonder if it's a coincidence that TT and Capers were shown the door at bazically the same time.

I don't have a good answer for the bad drafting.

But I thing I do think not forcing a decision on McCarthy about Capers sooner sits squarely on Thompson's shoulders. Whatever needed to happen on defense to utilize the talent on hand never developed.

McCarthy basically waiting until someone else got blamed and then performed the exorcism in the background.

[mraynrand]

When marginal starters like Hyde and Hayward leave and excel elsewhere, you have to look at the coaching.

I think generally people are making the wrong assumptions and drawing the wrong conclusions re: these two players. I'm repeating PBmax here but, WTH, why not: Hyde is no more special in Buffalo than in GB. He just got a collection of easy picks there. So far this year, he's been dead quiet - no INTs, 1 pass defensed, a few tackles/game. Hyde had a chance to win a playoff game here and cocked it up. He's no great shakes. Hayward is a fine player, but he was injured all the time. And he's having a quiet year too - only 2 more passes defensed than Hyde. Packers put their cash in Shields and got burned. TT's GM performance was declining (most likely health-related) and Capers' defensive schemes were not producing (most likely hair-related). Packers skill players on defense quit or declined (Raji, Matthews) were never that good (Perry) or never were (Datone Jones and 5-10 other picks). Capers probably was more scapegoated than anything else. Even fair coaches like him can't make a silk purse from Biegel's ears.

[Patler]

Thompson, like Wolf, has said final roster decisions were his, but he would not force players on the coach that the coach did not want. If TT did not think MM and his staff properly used the players they were given, he should have gotten rid of MM. Maybe that is where TT deserves criticism.

[hoosier]

Now i ain’t a fuckin Queen fan, but in my glorious youth, I saw plenty of Cris Carter sideline catches where the rock flew OB, but were ruled complete cos Carter had both feet inbounds.

Don't confuse the goal line with the side line.

[bobblehead]

When marginal starters like Hyde and Hayward leave and excel elsewhere, you have to look at the coaching. As in Capers. The logical conclusion woild be that MM kept Capers around too long. But I wonder if it's a coincidence that TT and Capers were shown the door at bazically the same time.

Was it capers or was it MM? I just saw them use House over Jackson earlier this year. Jackson still isn't seeing the field enough for my taste. All he has done is produce when he is on the field.

[bobblehead]

I think generally people are making the wrong assumptions and drawing the wrong conclusions re: these two players. I'm repeating PBmax here but, WTH, why not: Hyde is no more special in Buffalo than in GB. He just got a collection of easy picks there. So far this year, he's been dead quiet - no INTs, 1 pass defensed, a few tackles/game. Hyde had a chance to win a playoff game here and cocked it up. He's no great shakes. Hayward is a fine player, but he was injured all the time. And he's having a quiet year too - only 2 more passes defensed than Hyde. Packers put their cash in Shields and got burned. TT's GM performance was declining (most likely health-related) and Capers' defensive schemes were not producing (most likely hair-related). Packers skill players on defense quit or declined (Raji, Matthews) were never that good (Perry) or never were (Datone Jones and 5-10 other picks). Capers probably was more scapegoated than anything else. Even fair coaches like him can't make a silk purse from Biegel's ears.

And then he got another chance against Dallas.

[texaspackerbacker]

On and on about Capers - sheeesh! It was and still is a personnel problem, and that's squarely on Ted. Gutekunst is improving things, but it takes time. We are coming around to where we should be now at Corner. That just leaves most of the rest of the D as substandard.

Capers was swimming against the tide to compensate with his schemes. Pettine is no worse, but I don't see him as any better either.

[pbmax]

I think generally people are making the wrong assumptions and drawing the wrong conclusions re: these two players. I'm repeating PBmax here but, WTH, why not: Hyde is no more special in Buffalo than in GB. He just got a collection of easy picks there. So far this year, he's been dead quiet - no INTs, 1 pass defensed, a few tackles/game. Hyde had a chance to win a playoff game here and cocked it up. He's no great shakes. Hayward is a fine player, but he was injured all the time. And he's having a quiet year too - only 2 more passes defensed than Hyde. Packers put their cash in Shields and got burned. TT's GM performance was declining (most likely health-related) and Capers' defensive schemes were not producing (most likely hair-related). Packers skill players on defense quit or declined (Raji, Matthews) were never that good (Perry) or never were (Datone Jones and 5-10 other picks). Capers probably was more scapegoated than anything else. Even fair coaches like him can't make a silk purse from Biegel's ears.

I agree with my paraphrased self.

But there is also something to the notion that slightly above average players have a role in a defense. Everyone can't be a third or fourth round steal, a top pick or a highly compensated veteran. Sometimes you need the right fit for a decent to good player. I think the Packers are better today with these two than without, even if there were good reasons at the time to doubt it or not be able to afford it.

Perhaps the odd disconnect (beside Thompson and Capers/M3 about defensive personnel) is keeping vets who are really not worth the money. Did anyone benefit from Burnett keeping his job and losing Hyde? Red trashed Burnett regularly but his greatest talent probably revolved around playing near the LOS. A safety's greatest value is keeping a lid on big plays and Burnett wasn't even playing that position in his last couple of years.

Anyone think of any others in this vein? While they were contract committed to Shields, we knew he was collecting too many concussions when he signed.

[mraynrand]

^^ All of that is reasonable. My point is that losing these guys wasn't some epic fuckup. Things could have worked to better, but the team made reasonable moves, just not perfect moves. They'd be better off right now with Hyde, but they still need to be better at that spot than him and maybe for less cash (i.e. Jones needed to be an effective starter at this point).

[MadScientist]

On and on about Capers - sheeesh! It was and still is a personnel problem, and that's squarely on Ted. Gutekunst is improving things, but it takes time. We are coming around to where we should be now at Corner. That just leaves most of the rest of the D as substandard.

Capers was swimming against the tide to compensate with his schemes. Pettine is no worse, but I don't see him as any better either.

Capers was hamstrung by inferior personnel. However, his scheme was too well known and easily beaten at the end as well. Pettine has a somewhat improved secondary, but otherwise mostly the same players as Capers did. But there has at times some semblance of a pass rush this year. That's a clear improvement based solely on scheme. Better sack rate and better 3rd down stats make this year's defense much less frustrating than the defense of the previous couple of years.

[Fritz]

Capers was hamstrung by inferior personnel. However, his scheme was too well known and easily beaten at the end as well. Pettine has a somewhat improved secondary, but otherwise mostly the same players as Capers did. But there has at times some semblance of a pass rush this year. That's a clear improvement based solely on scheme. Better sack rate and better 3rd down stats make this year's defense much less frustrating than the defense of the previous couple of years.


This I agree with. It took several games for things to begin to work, but it looks like Pettine's not going to rush three and cross your fingers the QB can't find an open guy with 7 seconds to look around, ala Capers.

[mraynrand]

This I agree with. It took several games for things to begin to work, but it looks like Pettine's not going to rush three and cross your fingers the QB can't find an open guy with 7 seconds to look around, ala Capers.

Well, a lot of times Pettine is doing the opposite - bringing extra pressure and taking chances the coverage holds up just long enough and/or they affect the QB so he can't throw to the profoundly open guy sitting in the spot the pass rusher just vacated. It's all they can do, because they can barely generate any pass rush from the OLB position.

Was Capers long in the tooth and a bit predictable? Sure, but he also was playing at times with Gunter and Randall as his starting corners and having Hawkins and Martin Evans seeing significant PT.

The defense is thin and shallow rn, and has been for several years, following the 2014 mini-peak.

[Fritz]

Well, a lot of times Pettine is doing the opposite - bringing extra pressure and taking chances the coverage holds up just long enough and/or they affect the QB so he can't throw to the profoundly open guy sitting in the spot the pass rusher just vacated. It's all they can do, because they can barely generate any pass rush from the OLB position.

Was Capers long in the tooth and a bit predictable? Sure, but he also was playing at times with Gunter and Randall as his starting corners and having Hawkins and Martin Evans seeing significant PT.

The defense is thin and shallow rn, and has been for several years, following the 2014 mini-peak.


I don't disagree - it's just that I prefer a defensive coordinator rolling the dice by forcing the action.rather than sitting back and hoping the coverage works.

[pbmax]

I don't disagree - it's just that I prefer a defensive coordinator rolling the dice by forcing the action.rather than sitting back and hoping the coverage works.

Honestly, I don't remember this from Capers unless in was 3rd or 4th and 10 or more yards to go.

By the end, the guy was blitzing everything at times. I remember Cover 0 blitzes getting torched worse than 3 man rushes.

[mraynrand]

Honestly, I don't remember this from Capers unless in was 3rd or 4th and 10 or more yards to go.

By the end, the guy was blitzing everything at times. I remember Cover 0 blitzes getting torched worse than 3 man rushes.

Makes sense, since they had nothing left at corner. Remember that the only reason they didn't send Randall packing was because they had no one to play with any competency. Capers did get stale, but he ended on a double bad note because his personnel was sub par.

[pbmax]

Makes sense, since they had nothing left at corner. Remember that the only reason they didn't send Randall packing was because they had no one to play with any competency. Capers did get stale, but he ended on a double bad note because his personnel was sub par.

Agreed. Capers was blitzing for the same reasons Pettine is; they can't send four and reliably get to the QB and that includes Wilkerson. Of all the debates to have about the talent level of the Packers, lack of pass rush has consistently been an issue since 2011. Peppers gave a brief respite.

Pettine's blitzes and stunts (including the very enthusiastic Fackrell kamikaze T-E twist) look new now but won't be in two years.

[Pugger]

Best thing about this trade is the carries should go to Jones!

THIS!

[Pugger]

There is a simple scheme fix for the Montgomery problem.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBWYvCo8Rvw

OMG! Too bad we didn't have someone back there with him in LA last Sunday.

[Pugger]

On and on about Capers - sheeesh! It was and still is a personnel problem, and that's squarely on Ted. Gutekunst is improving things, but it takes time. We are coming around to where we should be now at Corner. That just leaves most of the rest of the D as substandard.

Capers was swimming against the tide to compensate with his schemes. Pettine is no worse, but I don't see him as any better either.

Is it, tho? How much different is the D personnel this year compared to the last couple? I'm seeing a better defense already with only a couple of new faces starting this year.

[texaspackerbacker]

To the extent that this years D is better - and I'm not so sure it even is, it clearly is the personnel. Alexander has made a real difference when he has played, and he has learned from early mistakes and gotten better. Jackson hasn't been as good as I hoped yet, but I think he still will be. Some people complain about Martinez, but he also has gotten better lately, as has Kenny Clark. But beyond that, what do you have? Daniels has regressed a little bit for some reason. And nobody else has shown any consistent quality play. The much maligned Fackrell has been about the only other bright spot.

I said I wanted to see more of those jail break blitzes. Well, it seems like that is about the only way this D can get real pressure on the QB. Capers get criticized for his blitz packages being predictable, but I really haven't seen anything other than those all out jail breaks from Pettine that worked - and after several successes, the Rams figured out a way to counter it with those crossing patterns underneath the deep coverage. And the Packers weren't able to counter that counter.

Last week's game showed that the Packers can beat just about anybody with Aaron Rodgers and even just borderline good D. I think we can still go all the way this season, but an upgrade in several areas would solidify that even more for next year and beyond.

How did the "Montgomery to Ravens" thread get onto this? hahahahaha

[Bretsky]

Is it, tho? How much different is the D personnel this year compared to the last couple? I'm seeing a better defense already with only a couple of new faces starting this year.


Don't the two new CB's immediately bring more talent to this D ?

[mraynrand]

Don't the two new CB's immediately bring more talent to this D ?

fortunately, yes

[Pugger]

Don't the two new CB's immediately bring more talent to this D ?

Like I said - a couple.

[call_me_ishmael]

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2018/1/5/16853446/afc-playoffs-influential-offense-andy-reid-kansas-city-chiefs-college-spread


“You’ve got this evolution of running backs who can play receiver — it started with Marshall Faulk, but now it’s everywhere,” Mariucci said. “Christian McCaffrey, Kareem Hunt, Alvin Kamara. Todd Gurley has more yards than most receivers on the Rams.”

Ty Montgomery was super misused. Had he gone on waivers, I think KC would have picked him up.

[pbmax]

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2018/1/5/16853446/afc-playoffs-influential-offense-andy-reid-kansas-city-chiefs-college-spread

Ty Montgomery was super misused. Had he gone on waivers, I think KC would have picked him up.

???

He was their spread offense and 3rd down back. Caught a lot of balls. The offense may be stagnant but they knew what Monty did well.

[call_me_ishmael]

I will be the first to admit I don't watch a lot of football and when I do, I don't watch it closely since I normally have a kid crawling on me or something to that general effect, but I reckon I cannot remember many (any?) instances of Ty running angle routes or anything like that out of the back field getting iso'd on a linebacker. He would/should destroy a linebacker with his combination of size and quickness. He's special in that sense.

[pbmax]

I will be the first to admit I don't watch a lot of football and when I do, I don't watch it closely since I normally have a kid crawling on me or something to that general effect, but I reckon I cannot remember many (any?) instances of Ty running angle routes or anything like that out of the back field getting iso'd on a linebacker. He would/should destroy a linebacker with his combination of size and quickness. He's special in that sense.

All true. But that isn't just Montgomery. RB are generally underused in M3's offense. Wheel routes, check downs and screens are all there are.

Basically, the John Kuhn route tree.

[Harlan Huckleby]

All true. But that isn't just Montgomery. RB are generally underused in M3's offense. Wheel routes, check downs and screens are all there are.

Basically, the John Kuhn route tree.

The Patriots just schooled the Packers on how to use running backs in the passing game.

[pbmax]

Packers also run a WR screen with the RB as the receiver from a single back, basically blocked like a WR screen but a long toss/handoff to the RB. But haven't seen it in awhile.

With so few plays to the RB, I wonder why they go empty backfield? Its just going to move a LB. Would be much more effective if they feared the WR as a receiver.

[texaspackerbacker]

The Patriots just schooled the Packers on how to use running backs in the passing game.

I suspect that has a lot to do with comparative quality of the O Line blocking and the need to keep RBs in to block free pass rushers.

[run pMc]

Ramblings:

The CB's are clearly upgraded over what they had last year...it's not even close. Throwing out King, I'd take Tramon, Jaire and J.Jackson over Randall, House and Rollins. The problem in the secondary this year has been the safeties.
I think the defense is getting some pressure on the QB due to better coverage. Maybe Wilkerson would have helped the pass rush, but right now I think the defense has improved from last year while the offense has regressed.
They need to find out if Burks can play, and who stays at OLB. Beyond that, they will have do some shopping in FA and draft for OLB and S.

I think letting Monty go and getting even a conditional pick that will likely be nothing is better than outright cutting him in terms of 'optics'. I wish him luck, but I'm not sorry he's gone. It opens up the RB rotation a bit more, and he was a gadget guy that can be replaced.
If they really need someone in that RB/WR role I'd use Cobb...he can't outrun a CB anymore but would be a tough cover for a LB.
The rookie WRs will get better as the season goes on and I think make the year 2 leap. I'm not surprised this year has had rough moments, but I did not expect them from Ty.