PACKERS NEED TO WEIGH RISK/REWARD WITH MCCARTHY

[Bretsky]

https://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/dougherty/2018/11/10/dougherty-packers-must-weigh-risk-reward-mike-mccarthy-hot-seat/1948775002/

[Bretsky]

A FEW FUN TIDBITS

As Lombardi put it in a column this week, “(The Packers’ offense) relies on the immense talent of the quarterback to make precise throws. No offensive coaches around the league watch Packers tape for ideas or new concepts to steal, there is no “wow factor” when it comes to their offensive schemes. And this is the root of the disconnect between Rodgers and McCarthy. Rodgers craves more and has been unhappy.”


There’s no denying that McCarthy for the last few years has suffered from a talent shortage aside from Rodgers.

Thompson did next to nothing for the roster aside from the draft, and his final five classes offered little to justify that approach. His 2013-15 picks should form the veteran core of the team, but only three players from those drafts are still on the roster (David Bakhtiari, Davante Adams and Corey Linsley).

[Bretsky]

also, some interesting points about how a couple good draft classes in a row seem to have revived Payton and Tomlin; the same could happen with MM

but the Lombardi comments about lack of innovation is scary

[red]

one big problem i have with the article is when it starts to talk about how fat mike might get a pass because of the lack of talent on the team

this is true. but the offense has almost always had talent, including now. the problem is the scheme sucks. it does no favors to the players, nothing is designed to get the open. its yard ball(ok, everyone go out and get open". or running motion in basketball. and you know what? you don't need a head coach to run that kind of shit

the head coach is adding absolutely nothing to this team, you would like the coach to add something. discipline, tactics, clock management, something. he adds none of that

a coach with a grasp of basic high school plays and tactics might be more helpful to rodgers then mccarthy is at this point

yes, the lack of talent on defense is a huge mess that TT left us, but the offense is the big problem right now

[call_me_ishmael]

The article in the athletic wasn’t anything new or interesting. It’s just time for MM to go at the end of the season. Let him bring Cleveland back to the promise land.

[Bretsky]

NO BRAINER

TRADE MM TO THE BROWNS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I still think you can do that in the NFL

[Pugger]

The offense has talent but for some reason Rodgers will NOT take what the defense gives him. He will ignore open guys underneath and go for the big play when all we need is a short slant play to keep the chains moving. Is this AR going rogue or does he have Stubby's blessing? If so then MM needs to go. The interior of our line needs upgrading. I'm pretty happy with our tackles and Spriggs looked pretty good last week filling in for Bulaga. Graham is fine but he isn't the future. Lewis is a nice blocker but Kendricks is a wasted roster space. I like our WRs but they are still pretty green and need to work with AR more during the week so their route running improves. I like A. Jones and he needs to be fed the ball more as long as he puts both hands on the ball while being tackled.

The defense still has major issues. Yes, we have a couple of nice players to build the defense around but besides a couple of young CBs, Martinez, Daniels and Clark there isn't much there. Our pass rush only works when we blitz and if we don't get home we get burned big time. Perry is invisible and Clay is past his prime. I do like the direction of the defensive with Pettine running things. He's made this band of misfits play pretty well at times. That side of the ball still needs reinforcements.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

The offense has talent but for some reason Rodgers will NOT take what the defense gives him. He will ignore open guys underneath and go for the big play when all we need is a short slant play to keep the chains moving. Is this AR going rogue or does he have Stubby's blessing? If so then MM needs to go.
.

Rodgers has no doubt morphed into a Martzist before our very eyes. Likes to hold the rock forever, as he fights for the downtrodden. Now Martzism is not necessarily a bad thing. Martzism put Warner in the Hall of Fame. Got the noodle-arm Marc Bulger paid. Hell, Cutler didn't look too bad under Martz - Bears were one BJ Raji pick-6 away from reaching the Super Bowl.

[red]

wrong thread

[run pMc]

Acme Packing Company had an interesting podcast ("Is Aaron Rodgers greedy?"). Among the musings, one was the speculation that Rodgers hates the "new" changes to the offense and is purposely running it inefficiently. I think that's unlikely, but you never know.

[wpony]

I was watching the game with a friend he was saying the same thing that it look like the player were trying to tank the game last week even started this week a little bit.
I told him if Rodgers is trying to tank this year to get rid of McCarth to have Gute would have to call Rogers into his office and tell him if he wants to get rid of McCarthy he better win this year or he will keep him around for another year just to show him whos boss. LOL

[mraynrand]

Rodgers has no doubt morphed into a Martzist before our very eyes. Likes to hold the rock forever, as he fights for the downtrodden. Now Martzism is not necessarily a bad thing. Martzism put Warner in the Hall of Fame. Got the noodle-arm Marc Bulger paid. Hell, Cutler didn't look too bad under Martz - Bears were one BJ Raji pick-6 away from reaching the Super Bowl.

spread the wealth!

[Anti-Polar Bear]

spread the wealth!

That’s exactly why J-Mike failed to produce Gronkish numbers, season-wise. Rodgers likes to spread the wealth. J-Mike had to share it with studs like Jennings, Driver, Jones, Nelson and Cobb.

And Pack won a SB spreading the wealth.

Goddamn, I miss J-Mike!

[Fritz]

I was watching the game with a friend he was saying the same thing that it look like the player were trying to tank the game last week even started this week a little bit.
I told him if Rodgers is trying to tank this year to get rid of McCarth to have Gute would have to call Rogers into his office and tell him if he wants to get rid of McCarthy he better win this year or he will keep him around for another year just to show him whos boss. LOL

I do not believe this is how the power structure is set up. I think it is Murphy who holds the fate of MM in his hands, not Gutekunst. Though I trust Gute more than Murphy at this point. I see Murphy as gingerly holding this cash cow in his hands.

[Pugger]

I do not believe this is how the power structure is set up. I think it is Murphy who holds the fate of MM in his hands, not Gutekunst. Though I trust Gute more than Murphy at this point. I see Murphy as gingerly holding this cash cow in his hands.

Murphy is not like other "owners" so if he sticks with MM and the team gets worse the Executive Committee and/or Board of Directors can do something about it and relieve him of his duties as team Prez.

[Fritz]

Yes, true. But in my experience committees move about as fast as a drunken sloth.

[mraynrand]

Murphy is not like other "owners" so if he sticks with MM and the team gets worse the Executive Committee and/or Board of Directors can do something about it and relieve him of his duties as team Prez.

Sure, but Murphy has control over Stubby's fate, not Gute. At least that's what we've been led to believe.

[texaspackerbacker]

Undoubtedly Murphy and the executive committee don't see it nearly as cut and dried that McCarthy needs to go as a lot of people in here do. There are a helluva lot of teams this year - and probably every year - that don't meet expectations by a lot bigger margin than the Packers.

[Teamcheez1]

Acme Packing Company had an interesting podcast ("Is Aaron Rodgers greedy?"). Among the musings, one was the speculation that Rodgers hates the "new" changes to the offense and is purposely running it inefficiently. I think that's unlikely, but you never know.

I don't feel we are getting our $30M+ from Rodgers. I thought we were re-signing Joe Montana not Joe Flacco.

[mraynrand]

I don't feel we are getting our $30M+ from Rodgers. I thought we were re-signing Joe Montana not Joe Flacco.

Montana only played one game in his 13th season*





*OK, so I can't count. He didn't play much better in years 14 or 15 either...

[QBME]

Yes, true. But in my experience committees move about as fast as a drunken sloth.

Somewhere I read that a Committee has 16 arms, 16 legs, one stomach and no brain.

[red]

Murphy is not like other "owners" so if he sticks with MM and the team gets worse the Executive Committee and/or Board of Directors can do something about it and relieve him of his duties as team Prez.

does the board ever decide to get rid of the team president, or do they just let them retire?

the board and owners group seems to be the ultimate group of homers sucking on the koolaide teat of the team

[red]

Montana only played one game in his 13th season*





*OK, so I can't count. He didn't play much better in years 14 or 15 either...

like i said in the GDT, we may already be past a-rods window. that injury last year to his throwing arm might have had lasting effects

we're not really seeing the "holy shit" moments this year from him like we use to see a few times a game

thats not to say he's a bad QB now, just that we can no longer win solely because of his talent

[ThunderDan]

Of course in 2010 when we won the Super Bowl JMike was injured and was on IR for over half the season.

[red]

Of course in 2010 when we won the Super Bowl JMike was injured and was on IR for over half the season.

was that the year were he was dropping about 4 passes a game before finally being injured?

[Teamcheez1]

like i said in the GDT, we may already be past a-rods window. that injury last year to his throwing arm might have had lasting effects

we're not really seeing the "holy shit" moments this year from him like we use to see a few times a game

thats not to say he's a bad QB now, just that we can no longer win solely because of his talent

Being one of the highest paid players in the NFL brings certain expectations. He still has incredible talent, but it's the mental part of the game that has been troubling lately. You can't just play the scramble drill when you get older. Make the proper reads and the correct throws. That is what I think has been lacking.

[ThunderDan]

was that the year were he was dropping about 4 passes a game before finally being injured?

No, he was having a good season and had mostly gotten over the drops that had plagued him the year before.

[KYPack]

does the board ever decide to get rid of the team president, or do they just let them retire?

the board and owners group seems to be the ultimate group of homers sucking on the koolaide teat of the team

Judge Robert Parins was the first full time President of the GBP starting in '82.

He was succeeded by Bob Harlan in '88.

Harlan retired and hand picked his successor, one John Jones.

Jones was to transition to Packer Prez, but totally bungled his relationship to the Exec council prior to getting that job.

Jones was then "deconsidered" and allowed to not take the job for health reasons.

The exec council and GM TT then did their own search for the new guy and selected current President Mark Murphy.

So really everybody that has had the full time job has retired.

It would take a LOT to fire the Murphy and personally I doubt that will happen.

[pbmax]

There’s no denying that McCarthy for the last few years has suffered from a talent shortage aside from Rodgers.

Thompson did next to nothing for the roster aside from the draft, and his final five classes offered little to justify that approach. His 2013-15 picks should form the veteran core of the team, but only three players from those drafts are still on the roster (David Bakhtiari, Davante Adams and Corey Linsley).

A FEW FUN FACTS WITHIN CONTEXT, RATHER THAN BLAMING THE PLAYER ACQUISITION APPROACH WHILE TRYING TO EXONERATE M3

1. The dismissed Adams draft pick is the second best player on the offense and is a Top 5 WR in the NFL. Think about what that sentence means.
2. Corey Linsley is an Pro Bowl level center.
3. David Bach is an All-Pro level LT, though he is not having his best year.
4. Aaron Jones is a Pro Bowl level RB who McCarthy took 6 weeks to make his full time starter. I had toddlers at Halloween ask me what was going at RB while they were trick or treating. All I could do was give them a full size peanut butter cup to encourage asking good questions.
5. Ty Montgomery was the 3rd best RB and kept getting starters reps in key situations. When push came to shove and he blew a gasket, this key component was traded. Who masterminded this? The guy who kept giving him key reps or the GM who saw Jones on the bench?

With All-Pro/Pro Bowl level talent at three skill positions (QB, WR, RB) and two very good starters on the line, what has the personnel delivered?

The 9th ranked GB offense (Football Outsiders), which is not bad. But they are the 13th ranked scoring per game unit. It could be a Top 5 unit if McCarthy actually cared to make his players job easier than he makes his job. He is losing his QB, and that is flat unforgivable.

You'll have to trust me on this: teams that claim a lot of four quarter comebacks are terribly mediocre teams.The Falcons and Ryan, the Browns Kardiac Kids, Romo and the Cowboys, Magic and the 89 Packers. The list is impressive. The best comeback QB of the 80s was not Montana, but Elway and his teams were often mediocre. Montana and Brady are impressive exceptions. But I take the recent comebacks from Rodgers to be warning signs of the team using two different game plans. Its like a Klaxon going off.

He needs to change his base Offense to use the plays he sparingly puts into his 15 play script. But he keeps the core playbook and the 2nd and 3rd quarters of uninspired offensive football it produces each week is proof positive that he is too stubborn for his own good at times.

M3 needs to decide: more important to demonstrate where his offensive talent falls below previous levels (RT, other 2 starting WR) and his expectations, or adapt and win more games.

Is anyone sitting around moaning about the talent level of the Pittsburgh offense? No.

Stop blaming people who aren't here. McCarthy needs to deliver an offense commensurate with his actual talent level or he should be fired before the end of the season so they can bring in someone who isn't more devoted to their playbook than winning.

[pbmax]

That said, the more basic thrust of Lombardi, who is an idiot that cannot remain employed in the NFL, is sound.

McCarthy is an above average head coach. His offense is good, not great, he can scheme with the best of them when he desires to deviate from his book, but he normally is very tied to his book, which can hamper the talent on hand.

His ability to keep the players focused and ready is profound. In any other hands, the Super Bowl bye week picture fiasco in 2010 is the start of four days of the Packers melting down under scrutiny of the biggest game. McCarthy snuffed it out in 6 hours. He was brilliant in this moment.

He was the only steadying presence during Favre-A-Palooza. Everyone took a dive except for him. If McCarthy had not been there, Favre would have been QB-Coach-GM-CEO at the start of 2008.

He doesn't torch players or coaches publicly, which keeps everyone pushing in the same direction. He mostly leaves the DC alone, though he does love to give them tasks in the offseason which occasionally backfire (NASCAR, personnel groups on D) and sometimes preview a sea change in defense (nickel all the time for 3 WR sets 2010 to 11). He takes too long to make coaching changes, looking for the cover of a poor season.

You want to blame Rodgers for making drafting tough? OK. But a healthy veteran Rodgers made it impossible for McCarthy to change coaches on the D side when he needed to. That is inexcusable.

His game management is poor. His challenge strategy is weird and emotional, but somehow it works better than it should. He generally has a challenge left at the end of a game which is good, but those challenges often outnumber his remaining timeouts, which is bad.

The only personnel problem that has persisted is his distrust of smaller backs. He trusted Lacy, but refused for too long to trust Jones. The only personnel problem that he seems incapably of fixing is his relationship to his QB.

The odds are better that the Packers next coach will be worse than McCarthy. But M3 seems almost unwilling to change and I am not sure he would listen to Murphy or Gute. Ted seems to have refused to meddle in coaching like the Steelers/Rooney's do. If that is the case, he needs to go.

[mraynrand]

^^^ The most interesting speculation is that the GM is forcing Stubby's play-calling hand by removing chess pieces. If that's true, and it seems kinda likely, Stubby is already gone.

[mraynrand]

^^^ The most interesting speculation is that the GM is forcing Stubby's play-calling hand by removing chess pieces. If that's true, and it seems kinda likely, Stubby is already gone.

But if this is true, woe to the new coach

[pbmax]

^^^ The most interesting speculation is that the GM is forcing Stubby's play-calling hand by removing chess pieces. If that's true, and it seems kinda likely, Stubby is already gone.


But if this is true, woe to the new coach

I would normally agree with the latter, except that great coaches aren't born on trees. They are created through some struggles and experience. Sometimes they need a correction. And the only two people with the authority to do it are the GM or owner. In practice its a bad idea because those two aren't coaches, but the Steelers have shown it can work. Head coaches don't just appear on the sideline ready, someone has to help train and correct them.

But it could be a terrible precedent if they interfere too much. Its a concern. With McCarthy and his years of experience, I think its likelier they just start fresh.

As to the former, I think McCarthy was already slowly moving to Jones oddly enough. Makes the trade all the more interesting.

Possible the likeliest explanations that Gutey is simply reloading, regardless of coach. Get rid of weight that causes problems rather than hoping for improvement and try someone else out. Normally talk about rebuilding the tail end of the roster seems like GM speak. But maybe he seems a need to improve talent there.

[mraynrand]

.. Gutey is simply reloading, regardless of coach....

That's what I think. And Stubby as well as all the players except Rodgers are being interviewed by the Bobs for their own jobs.

[Pugger]

I found a breakdown on our issues on another forum that I think is pretty revealing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bax9C8damOU

[mraynrand]

I found a breakdown on our issues on another forum that I think is pretty revealing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bax9C8damOU

"Make things easy." If only I'd thought of that.

[texaspackerbacker]

I put it at 70/30 that McCarthy is still coaching the Packers next season. Things just aren't as bad as some in here fantasize.

[KYPack]

I found a breakdown on our issues on another forum that I think is pretty revealing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bax9C8damOU

Pretty good one, Pug,

That wasn't anything we don't know, but a solid summary of things we are all trying to forget.

[pbmax]

That quarters defense he called out and the MILES route attacking it was a good example of the basic scheme working and Rodgers just not trusting what he sees to make the best throw. He's waiting for Davante to break open.

I think one thing we tend to forget about this year is that the young receivers are causing confusion for the QB as well as the other way around.

[Fritz]

Well, PB, I do think Ted slipped in the second half of his career as GM, but I will say that if Josh Jones becomes the next Nick Collins (slim chance, but he played okay on Sunday), his stock goes way back up, what with drafting Aaron Jones in the fifth and Kenny Clark looking better each day.

if only Monstrosity Adams would get a few sacks and some more playing time.

[Pugger]

Pretty good one, Pug,

That wasn't anything we don't know, but a solid summary of things we are all trying to forget.

Perhaps I should send this to Stubby? :wink:

[KYPack]

Perhaps I should send this to Stubby? :wink:

If it wouldn't be too much trouble.

When I first read yer post, I thought it said "send it to my hubby".