Is Aaron Rodgers even good anymore?

[MadScientist]

With all the, totally justified, bitching about the offensive scheme and play calling, are we just glossing over the quality of play of Rodgers. Rodgers' numbers are way off from his norms, and looking at individual plays, his accuracy has been terrible. Nobody is hit in stride anymore. even short passes require receivers to reach for the passes. Deep balls require significant adjustments by receiver to get to the ball.

Looking at the tape, it looks like Rodgers' mechanics are all wrong. Lets look at a few similar type throws. Here's the deep TD to Tonyan last night:
https://twitter.com/thecheckdown/status/1063249629339209729/video/1

Here is the Detroit hail mary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0vVqStvh_8

and one in Arizona:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fjE1B6VcZE

The footwork is really bad now. That's probably because his knee is still hurting him badly. It's harder to clearly identify, but it also looks like his throwing motion is different as well. The follow-through is not there. On some of the shorter passes in the game, it looked like he was unnecessarily side-arming the throws.

The knee problem will probably be improved during the off season. The greater concern is if the arm motion changes are not because of the knee, but due to lingering effects of the collar bone injury which probably won't get any better.

The Packers may be paying top dollar to a middle of the road QB, for the next 3 years.

[mraynrand]

Definitely truth to declining skills. He was doubly injured, played though a knee sprain that would have resulted in missed games for most QBs. How could he not b compromised? He is in decline. How severe is anyone's guess. Oh, he is also watching the pass rush now - both because of play-calling and probably because of the vagaries of age.

You know what helps older QBs? Play-action. You know what hurts older QBs? A Fran Tarkenton offense. Choose wisely.

[call_me_ishmael]

I have the same questions and concerns. We'll know more if and when they run an offense that is predicated on short passing routes and moving the sticks. Timing, timing, timing. How often do you see Brady throw 40 yards down the field? I am genuinely curious as I don't know. My guess is the number is lower than you'd think.

[mraynrand]

How often do you see Brady throw 40 yards down the field?

Maybe a better question is how long on average does Brady hold the ball before looking downfield. Or Brees. And do they allow a defense to tee off on those two QBs by employing an unbalanced attack.

[Teamcheez1]

Rodgers still has tremendous skills. Either MM is not tailoring the offense to take advantage of his play, or Rodgers is not playing within the system. I would say a little bit of both.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

2 1sts, 2 2nds and Carr for the Great Arm of Butte.

Gruden loves to acquire aging vets of NFL wars. Don’t be surprised to see the German Shepherd accept the trade.

[MadScientist]

2 1sts, 2 2nds and Carr for the Great Arm of Butte.

Gruden loves to acquire aging vets of NFL wars. Don’t be surprised to see the German Shepherd accept the trade.
That would lead to a $60M cap hit next year.
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/green-bay-packers/aaron-rodgers-3745/
They could wait another year (still brutal 30M cap hit), but Gru will probably be shit-canned by then.

[beveaux1]

[QUOTE=beveaux1;993499]There are lots of reasons for his significantly lower completion percentage...But I believe the top reason for Rodgers' problems are the losses of Nelson, Allison, and Cobb for significant amounts of time this year. Rodgers expects receivers to be in particular places, to move towards him, away from him, to the right or left based on game conditions and it takes experience to know these spots. The only receiver that does is Adams and he's caught 8 TD passes and many first down catches. Rodgers will not throw interceptions, so he throws a pass that no one can catch.

Watching this game, this strongly appears to be the case. We know that Rodgers dislikes checkdowns, but after passes were incomplete to Scantling and St. Brown in the 2nd half. Passes that he showed anger or made gestures showing where he expected the receiver to go, he did not target those receivers much at all. In fact, he appeared to be targeting only Adams. He gave Adams 7 targets in the 2nd half, 5 completions. Scantling had 2 targets, 1 completion. St. Brown had 2 targets, 1 completion. In both of these receivers' cases the completion came before the incompletion in a single drive and they were not targeted again for the rest of the game. Jones had three targets in the 2nd half with no success at all. In each of these checkdowns, it appeared that Rodgers could have had success with the play had he thrown it sooner in the progression.


I don't buy that he wants to run MM out of town, but I do believe that he doesn't trust his #2 and #3 wideouts. This makes for a very difficult time sustaining long drives if there is only one receiver that he truly trusts.


I'll be interested to see what happens when Cobb can play. His game has always been getting open when Rodgers scrambles since he doesn't have the moves or speed to beat many DBs.

[gbgary]

he's just good now...and over paid...and uncoachable. the chance to trade was this last off-season. at the very least they should have waited to see how he was before extending him. now all of that is too late. he trending down with a horrible cap number. and think people cuss cobb's salary. i told you so. smh

[Anti-Polar Bear]

That would lead to a $60M cap hit next year.
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/green-bay-packers/aaron-rodgers-3745/
They could wait another year (still brutal 30M cap hit), but Gru will probably be shit-canned by then.

As a wise man once said, the cap can always be cooked. :)

For the record, I do not advocate trading the Great Arm of Butte. But Favre single-handily turned around a moribund Packer franchise, and in the end, he still got shipped off to Siberia. Anything is possible.

Btw, Gruden has a decade long contract. He’ll be in Vegas for a while.

[pbmax]

Did anyone see the first half?

He is not in a general decline except for aging. Injuries mean he is not as mobile as he once was which is costing him sacks as he does not seem to have adapted yet. Gets caught a lot from behind.

He doesn't trust the limited offense to get him first downs and so he is taking ill advised shots deep.

His footwork and arm mechanics are poor now, but I expect that is fixable with a better pass rush and health.

What I don't know is if a completely new offense will be accepted readily. I expect it would, I don't think he likes being in this position, but cannot be sure.

During the week, its 95% McCarthy's problem. They share the problem 50/50 during the game.

[beveaux1]

Did anyone see the first half?

He is not in a general decline except for aging. Injuries mean he is not as mobile as he once was which is costing him sacks as he does not seem to have adapted yet. Gets caught a lot from behind.

He doesn't trust the limited offense to get him first downs and so he is taking ill advised shots deep.

His footwork and arm mechanics are poor now, but I expect that is fixable with a better pass rush and health.

What I don't know is if a completely new offense will be accepted readily. I expect it would, I don't think he likes being in this position, but cannot be sure.

During the week, its 95% McCarthy's problem. They share the problem 50/50 during the game.

This is true. He still looks like he can make the throws, what the team has had trouble doing is sustaining drives and coming out with touchdowns.

For only the 2nd time in his career (the first being 2015), I'm not confident that Rodgers and his offense can score in a must-score situation.

I don't believe that MM has completely forgotten how to put together an offensive game plan, I also don't believe that Rodgers has somehow lost his ability to make the throws he needs to make.

Like 2015, he lost go-to receivers and this year is struggling to sustain drives with talented, athletic, but inexperienced receivers. He relies on the one he trusts and sometimes that one is covered and he tries to run, he throws it away, or he gets sacked.

The first solution is to force throws to the rookies, but he won't do that for fear of interceptions. The 2nd solution is to get Cobb back which means he has two receivers he trusts. No other options this year with Allison on IR.

Our biggest hope is that the young receivers prove themselves to Rodgers by the end of the year.

[texaspackerbacker]

It's all about the pathetic offensive line. Damn near every snap, Rodgers is rushed to more or less of a degree, and teams do that with just 4 or even 3 pass rushers the great majority of the time, allowing them to load up in coverage on the back end. And Rodgers still plays well enough to win almost every game.

In the Seattle game, the line wasn't even able to open holes for Aaron Jones - actually, it was more about deception/misdirection even in the Miami game.

[mraynrand]

Seattle doesn’t even play the run. They just go
full speed upfield. They know the Packers will stick to form. And even if they give one up odds are Stubby/Rodgers can’t help but revert to form. Odds are always in their favor.

[red]

the national rose colored glasses have come off

will cain just had a guy on his show about an hour ago (already forgot the guys name), but he's an nfl analyst and former DB

they were talking about how rodgers seems to only be concerned about making "oh wow" plays, highlight reel plays. he seems to have almost no use for a regular offense, he only wants the big play that keeps people talking.

they also mentioned something i have been screaming about for years. he's making his own life and the o-lines life way more difficult then it needs to be by scrambling around, even when there is no need to do that. many times you'll see a pocket that is just fine, but he'll bring the ball down and move out of the pocket, completely fucking everything up. they think this is also an example of him wanting to make an "oh wow" play, instead of just standing in the pocket and making an easy pass for 5 or 6 yards

i've never listened to these 2 guys before, but its refreshing to hear them, you all, and other all around the media finally bringing up things that i've felt have been obvious for years, but have been told over and over that i'm just nuts or being negative

the writing has been on the wall for a long time, and you people by putting the blinders on for so long have allowed it to continue. now that a mob has finally formed people are willing to see the truth and might finally force something to happen

[red]

Seattle doesn’t even play the run. They just go
full speed upfield. They know the Packers will stick to form. And even if they give one up odds are Stubby/Rodgers can’t help but revert to form. Odds are always in their favor.

its just shocking to see the same shit run over and over again on third and short and see the same failed results every single time

[mraynrand]

i've never listened to these 2 guys before, but its refreshing to hear them, you all, and other all around the media finally bringing up things that i've felt have been obvious for years, but have been told over and over that i'm just nuts or being negative

the writing has been on the wall for a long time, and you people by putting the blinders on for so long have allowed it to continue. now that a mob has finally formed people are willing to see the truth and might finally force something to happen

I must have been a lonely vigil for you, with no one for the last 6 years ever raising questions about the inefficiencies of the Packer offense. Finally, we are woke, and what a world of Packer mayhem and dysfunction we, at long last, unreachable for so long by our blind obedience to Packers, Inc., now can see.

[KYPack]

As a wise man once said, the cap can always be cooked. :)

For the record, I do not advocate trading the Great Arm of Butte. But Favre single-handily turned around a moribund Packer franchise, and in the end, he still got shipped off to Siberia. Anything is possible.

Btw, Gruden has a decade long contract. He’ll be in Vegas for a while.

You can't cook the cap.

That is a figment of your imagination.

[denverYooper]

Rodgers is still very good.

Offenses have changed and some young bucks have caught up.

[red]

he's still good i would say, but he's not even close to playing up to his full potential

[gbgary]

this hits the nail on the head...


https://youtu.be/bax9C8damOU

[red]

this hits the nail on the head...


https://youtu.be/bax9C8damOU

great video


everything about this team is ass backwards

[wist43]

When you see the whole field, guys are open. He just doesn't want to take what's given.

In that sense, no... Aaron Rodgers is no longer an upper tier QB.

[pbmax]

Seattle doesn’t even play the run. They just go
full speed upfield. They know the Packers will stick to form. And even if they give one up odds are Stubby/Rodgers can’t help but revert to form. Odds are always in their favor.

Packers learned the wrong lesson from 2014 playoff loss.

[pbmax]

he's still good i would say, but he's not even close to playing up to his full potential

Not sure he is healthy enough to. But the bigger drop-off is McCarthy's offensive planning.

[pbmax]

When you see the whole field, guys are open. He just doesn't want to take what's given.

In that sense, no... Aaron Rodgers is no longer an upper tier AN.

AN?

Avocado Nibbler?

[pbmax]

Bill Bardwell @billbarnwell
Again: if a quarterback played like Aaron Rodgers did last night over an entire season, he would set the single-season yards per attempt record, the single-season passer rating record, and have the third-most passing yards in league history. Aaron Rodgers’s “problem” is a dream

[Joemailman]

Bill Bardwell @billbarnwell
Again: if a quarterback played like Aaron Rodgers did last night over an entire season, he would set the single-season yards per attempt record, the single-season passer rating record, and have the third-most passing yards in league history. Aaron Rodgers’s “problem” is a dream

And average 24 points a game. Middle of the Pack in today's NFL. Rodgers has a fairly high passer rating this year because he doesn't throw interceptions. It is the only area in which he has been truly elite.

[wist43]

AN?

Avocado Nibbler?

Fucking auto fucksit!!!

[KYPack]

Fucking auto fucksit!!!

C'mon Wist.

What is the word?

You got us playing Charades out here.

[mraynrand]

Bill Bardwell @billbarnwell
Again: if a quarterback played like Aaron Rodgers did last night over an entire season, he would set the single-season yards per attempt record, the single-season passer rating record, and have the third-most passing yards in league history. Aaron Rodgers’s “problem” is a dream

Interesting. What was his passer rating in the second half and on third downs?

I forget how the rating is computed. Does a QB get rated lower for incompletions on third down or for taking sacks?

[Joemailman]

Interesting. What was his passer rating in the second half and on third downs?

I forget how the rating is computed. Does a QB get rated lower for incompletions on third down or for taking sacks?

Not with passer rating. I believe Passer rating is basically average yards per pass attempt, percent of passes that are TD's and percentage of passes that are INT's.

[pbmax]

And average 24 points a game. Middle of the Pack in today's NFL. Rodgers has a fairly high passer rating this year because he doesn't throw interceptions. It is the only area in which he has been truly elite.

Is that the QB or the offense?

Going by the first half, he average 42 points per game.

[pbmax]

Interesting. What was his passer rating in the second half and on third downs?

I forget how the rating is computed. Does a QB get rated lower for incompletions on third down or for taking sacks?

You want ESPN QBR or Football Outsiders DVOA for context specific ratings.

[pbmax]

The point isn't that this is the best Aaron Rodgers, but that he is still in there somewhere amongst a very problematic offense. And he is hurting himself and the offense at times fighting against it.

[mraynrand]

You want ESPN QBR or Football Outsiders DVOA for context specific ratings.

What's your link for this stuff? Do you just query it at pro-football-ref?

No thanks on the ESPER QBR crap.

[pbmax]

What's your link for this stuff? Do you just query it at pro-football-ref?

No thanks on the ESPER QBR crap.

:lol:

Actually, QBR got rid of the problematic "clutch" factor a while back. Its more rigorous these days.

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb

[mraynrand]

The point isn't that this is the best Aaron Rodgers, but that he is still in there somewhere amongst a very problematic offense. And he is hurting himself and the offense at times fighting against it.

wait, what? Fighting against the problematic offense? Or executing the problematic offense inefficiently? Everyone can see that at least one major problem is looking for the big shot 'extend offense' (EO) all the time when alternatives might be easier - especially since he's obviously physically limited by the knee and possibly the shoulder. Sure, he's started at such a high level that knocking him down a peg still makes him better than all but maybe 5 QBs, but running the EO doesn't work when he's not otherworldly. So which is it - that there are either few/no other options or that they aren't consistently being used? And who is responsible?

[mraynrand]

:lol:

Actually, QBR got rid of the problematic "clutch" factor a while back. Its more rigorous these days.

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb


Do I need premium access to figure out a rating in a specific quarter? Sorry, I gotta run to work; not trying to make you do work for me, but is there an easy way to get that info. I'd pay some money for it, but not a lot.

[Pugger]

Did anyone see the first half?

He is not in a general decline except for aging. Injuries mean he is not as mobile as he once was which is costing him sacks as he does not seem to have adapted yet. Gets caught a lot from behind.

He doesn't trust the limited offense to get him first downs and so he is taking ill advised shots deep.

His footwork and arm mechanics are poor now, but I expect that is fixable with a better pass rush and health.

What I don't know is if a completely new offense will be accepted readily. I expect it would, I don't think he likes being in this position, but cannot be sure.

During the week, its 95% McCarthy's problem. They share the problem 50/50 during the game.

He looked like his old self in the first half. You have to wonder what happened. I suspect Carroll made defensive adjustments and Mac did not. He abandoned the run AGAIN because the seachickens stopped it a couple of times.

I'm sure AR isn't as mobile as he once was. His line is giving him time most of the time but he doesn't seem to trust his young wide outs. He won't take checkdowns either. AR is too in love with deep shots when it isn't necessary. They make it all too damn difficult. I'm surprised Stubby nor his QB coach is addressing this issue.

Rodgers' footwork have never been all that great.

I agree, we don't need a new offense but perhaps a new perspective on this offense might breathe some life into it.

Stubby has never been known as a great game manager. His time management sucks and is stubborn to a fault.

[Pugger]

its just shocking to see the same shit run over and over again on third and short and see the same failed results every single time

Yes, isn't the definition of insanity doing the same damn things over and over again and expecting a different result?

[pbmax]

wait, what? Fighting against the problematic offense? Or executing the problematic offense inefficiently? Everyone can see that at least one major problem is looking for the big shot 'extend offense' (EO) all the time when alternatives might be easier - especially since he's obviously physically limited by the knee and possibly the shoulder. Sure, he's started at such a high level that knocking him down a peg still makes him better than all but maybe 5 QBs, but running the EO doesn't work when he's not otherworldly. So which is it - that there are either few/no other options or that they aren't consistently being used? And who is responsible?

I think both are responsible. I have no idea whether touchdown to check down was actually McCarthy or Rodgers. We have heard that for a long time, so I lean M3, but impossible to know if its design (M3) or explanation (AR).

But this offense has never really been a 12 play TD drive offense like it was variously under Holmgren and Sherman. So I expect its at least partially by design.

Now Rodgers knows this and takes his shot willingly. But I think at least part of the driving factor is the inability of this offense to put together multi-play drives with short throws.

You have seen McCarthy's short play offense. Toss sweep, WR screen and bubble screen. The last two at the discretion of Rodgers. McCarthy also abandons the run for long stretches. He doesn't call slants and has said Rodgers prefers to throw outside compared to Favre who liked the middle.

But when you have run an offense for 12 years and been looking deep the entire time, its hard to unlearn that tendency. So I am not surprised that Jones gets overlooked in the flat on a leak out route. But the history is also that short throws have not worked for this offense to sustain drives. It didn't work for Hundley or the rest.

But you take your poorly designed short throwing game, mix in an indifferent attitude to the run and the middle of the field, the result you get is how Rodgers is playing now.

[pbmax]

Do I need premium access to figure out a rating in a specific quarter? Sorry, I gotta run to work; not trying to make you do work for me, but is there an easy way to get that info. I'd pay some money for it, but not a lot.

They will give you the entire database for the year I believe for the price of a subscription.

PREMIUM ACCESS: https://www.footballoutsiders.com/premium/index.php

Click here to go to the homepage for Football Outsiders Premium Access. The subscription includes the following:

The DVOA Database, which contains a variety of DVOA splits going back to 1989 and updated weekly during the 2018 season.
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Premium Access costs $50 for one year. Purchase it here.


They also have charting data, but I think you want DVOA. However, I am not certain you get splits by quarter or down. I would send them a question.

[pbmax]

There is a LOT of talk about Rodgers and Brady on the downside of careers this year. Brady has been noticeably flat statistically for some time now, but its become more apparent this year, he's still good but rarely great.

Rodgers has struggled overall since 2012. His average yards per attempt are way down. But I think this is very offense and design specific. When teams figured out how to cover the TE-less offense and then the no huddle, McCarthy went to shorter and shorter throws (all those interminable WR screens).

That plus less success downfield has torpedoed his average per attempt. But I don't see this as his decline. I think this offense has melted around him. Less talent hurts, but it especially hurts if your design depends on winning a lot of 1 on 1 matchups.

McCarthy has adjusted this year, but his QB needs more.

[red]

Yes, isn't the definition of insanity doing the same damn things over and over again and expecting a different result?

That’s what Einstein said

[red]

Rodgers' footwork have never been all that great.

This is something that I think someone needs to fix fast.

It’s not gonna get any easier for him to do that kind of stuff as he gets older and less athletic

And then it’s just gonna cause more and more problems for us

[gbgary]

Not sure he is healthy enough to. But the bigger drop-off is McCarthy's offensive planning.

but Rodgers isn't throwing to guys that are open. people ARE open. take what's given until the big play presents itself. don't force it. march down the field, eat up the clock, get points. he still has the ability to be a good qb. he'll have to have a different mind set though. he's got to get back to taking what the D gives him. he's abandoned trying to get first downs for big plays. he's been this way for at least 3 seasons but this year it's off the charts. if he won't do it in this friendly offense, that he knows like the back of his hand, what makes us think he'll do it in a new offense? he doesn't want to be an efficient Brady-type qb. he wants to be the wow guy. it's killing our offense. he's become the trending-down, prima donna, overpaid, coach-killer, guy. you can't build around a guy like that without him becoming coachable again. i don't think his ego will allow it. can't trade him. it's too late. he's exposed himself. who'd want to deal with that and the enormous cap hit.

[pbmax]

but Rodgers isn't throwing to guys that are open. people ARE open. take what's given until the big play presents itself. don't force it. march down the field, eat up the clock, get points.

I am not saying this is a terrible idea. I am saying they literally have done the opposite for 12 years.

And when M3 schemes short passes, they are terrible. Rodgers compounds this by being bad at screen passes and ignoring outlet receivers for too long.

Expecting this to change with the current staff is unrealistic. A new coach has to convince Rodgers he has a plan for it and then ask him for some better short throws.

[Bretsky]

Rodgers is an elite talent; but he's not playing like an elite QB.

One of the reasons is he "used" to convert so many of those third down with his legs.

Clearly he's lost about a step and a half due to the knee injury and he no longer has the speed to get first downs with his legs; he needs to heal.

In the mean time YAC is gone, and MM has clearly lost the faith of AROD. One of the two needs to go. BYE BYE MM

[pbmax]

McCarthy could change this, but he has steadfastly refused to alter his base offense. He is waiting to be gifted with matchup wins at three more positions so his offense will win more.

Game doesn't work like this.

[red]

McCarthy could change this, but he has steadfastly refused to alter his base offense. He is waiting to be gifted with matchup wins at three more positions so his offense will win more.

Game doesn't work like this.

He has been keeping his job for years by saying things were going to change

And nothing ever does

[pbmax]

He has been keeping his job for years by saying things were going to change

And nothing ever does

That's the disconnect. He has changed, added bit by bit, but the approach of the base offense has not.

[mraynrand]

McCarthy...is waiting to be gifted with matchup wins at three more positions so his offense will win more.

nailed it

[red]

That's the disconnect. He has changed, added bit by bit, but the approach of the base offense has not.

its like the madden or fifa franchise

they add one new thing every year to get everyone all excited to buy it. everyone rushes out to get the new products, then finds its the exact same broken games as it has been for 4 or 5 years, exactly, except for one new worthless feature that hardly anyone cares about

its a con game

the new offensive wrinkle for this year might be that pitch play we saw run twice the other night, other then that, its the same broken shit as it has been for a few years now


The only difference between me and a homeless man is this job. I will do whatever it takes to survive. Like I did when I was a homeless man.-

creed bratton, the office

[gbgary]

I am not saying this is a terrible idea. I am saying they literally have done the opposite for 12 years.

And when M3 schemes short passes, they are terrible. Rodgers compounds this by being bad at screen passes and ignoring outlet receivers for too long.

Expecting this to change with the current staff is unrealistic. A new coach has to convince Rodgers he has a plan for it and then ask him for some better short throws.

i don't think the priority was placed on big plays 12 years ago. it's seems more like the last 6 to me. as for playing the short game you're right. where's the quick out and slant gone? i hate the offense right now.

[mraynrand]

its like the madden or fifa franchise

they add one new thing every year to get everyone all excited to buy it. everyone rushes out to get the new products, then finds its the exact same broken games as it has been for 4 or 5 years, exactly, except for one new worthless feature that hardly anyone cares about

its a con game

the new offensive wrinkle for this year might be that pitch play we saw run twice the other night, other then that, its the same broken shit as it has been for a few years now

Except they have a running back who averages 18 yards/carry. That's not a weapon.

[call_me_ishmael]

Are there really not any short or intimidate routes? Are we sure Aaron just isn't ignoring them? I just don't see how a coach could be so stubborn when we have seen time and time again how well the no huddle paired with short passing games working the sidelines works for this team. They're near unstoppable in their 2-4 minute offense.

[pbmax]

i don't think the priority was placed on big plays 12 years ago. it's seems more like the last 6 to me. as for playing the short game you're right. where's the quick out and slant gone? i hate the offense right now.

When Driver and Jennings started on offense, it was not so. They ran much more interior stuff because that is what those guys ran well. Jennings caught that miraculous post in the SB between 15 Steeler defenders. But that was intermediate stuff, not short shallow crosses or slants.

But that changed when it was Nelson and Jones starting alongside Jennings. Suddenly deep was wide open with Jennings in the slot, Nelson just going by people and Jones continually being the most open covered receiver in the game.

That's what I mean by McCarthy waiting for his advantage in personnel to happen again. If only he was so excited about his RB.

[pbmax]

Are there really not any short or intimidate routes? Are we sure Aaron just isn't ignoring them? I just don't see how a coach could be so stubborn when we have seen time and time again how well the no huddle paired with short passing games working the sidelines works for this team. They're near unstoppable in their 2-4 minute offense.

There are always shorter routes, but the game plan and the QB have to focus on them. The great lie of NFL football is that there is a 4 route progression happening on every pass. That isn't happening anymore; well, sometimes, in the extended offense. No one goes through 4 post snap progressions anymore. Pre snaps reads are much more important.

Mostly the other routes are decoys to pull defenders out of position while the offense attacks the people they want to attack. I can guarantee you M3 and Rodgers didn't start game planning by saying we are going to attack Bobby Wagner with passes to the backs. They wanted to attack single high safety wth bail coverage by CBs deep.

Adjusting to a weakness in the D on the fly takes an offense that can fall back to base plays they execute well. And this offense doesn't do passes to the back or TE well out of base.

[Pugger]

but Rodgers isn't throwing to guys that are open. people ARE open. take what's given until the big play presents itself. don't force it. march down the field, eat up the clock, get points. he still has the ability to be a good qb. he'll have to have a different mind set though. he's got to get back to taking what the D gives him. he's abandoned trying to get first downs for big plays. he's been this way for at least 3 seasons but this year it's off the charts. if he won't do it in this friendly offense, that he knows like the back of his hand, what makes us think he'll do it in a new offense? he doesn't want to be an efficient Brady-type qb. he wants to be the wow guy. it's killing our offense. he's become the trending-down, prima donna, overpaid, coach-killer, guy. you can't build around a guy like that without him becoming coachable again. i don't think his ego will allow it. can't trade him. it's too late. he's exposed himself. who'd want to deal with that and the enormous cap hit.

Do you really believe AR has morphed into this spoiled diva who won't let anyone tell him what to do? I wonder if it is Stubby who is allowing Rodgers free reign? EVERY player, even Brady, needs coaching and I have a feeling Rodgers isn't getting the direction he needs from his HC nor his position coach.

[Joemailman]

but Rodgers isn't throwing to guys that are open. people ARE open. take what's given until the big play presents itself. don't force it. march down the field, eat up the clock, get points. he still has the ability to be a good qb. he'll have to have a different mind set though. he's got to get back to taking what the D gives him. he's abandoned trying to get first downs for big plays. he's been this way for at least 3 seasons but this year it's off the charts. if he won't do it in this friendly offense, that he knows like the back of his hand, what makes us think he'll do it in a new offense? he doesn't want to be an efficient Brady-type qb. he wants to be the wow guy. it's killing our offense. he's become the trending-down, prima donna, overpaid, coach-killer, guy. you can't build around a guy like that without him becoming coachable again. i don't think his ego will allow it. can't trade him. it's too late. he's exposed himself. who'd want to deal with that and the enormous cap hit.

Rodgers will be a Packer. Even if they traded him, I believe the cap hit on the signing bonus would be on them. The question is, who has the best chance to get through to him? The coaching staff he seems to have tuned out, or a different one? I would argue the latter. Frankly, I'm not sure the relationship between MM and Rodgers has ever been the same since MM took the ball out of Rodgers' hands late in the NFC Title Game in Seattle. Punting on 4th and 2 probably didn't help. It's a bad relationship that has to end.

[pbmax]

Do you really believe AR has morphed into this spoiled diva who won't let anyone tell him what to do? I wonder if it is Stubby who is allowing Rodgers free reign? EVERY player, even Brady, needs coaching and I have a feeling Rodgers isn't getting the direction he needs from his HC nor his position coach.

Don't know about Gary but I half believe this.

Rodgers knows what his options are on play calls and waiting then looking deep first could be his decision at times.

So despite scheme and planning shortcomings, he is not taking what the defense offered either. They are both complicit.

[pbmax]

You just need to rematch the 2nd half of the Bears game to know what is possible.

But it won't happen in the next Bears game because Fangio is forewarned. And I guarantee the adjustments in the game plan won't be the short ones this time.

[red]

Do you really believe AR has morphed into this spoiled diva who won't let anyone tell him what to do? I wonder if it is Stubby who is allowing Rodgers free reign? EVERY player, even Brady, needs coaching and I have a feeling Rodgers isn't getting the direction he needs from his HC nor his position coach.

i believe he's been that way most of his career but we've turned a blind eye because of all the winning

ask anyone who isn't a packer fan and they will tell you he's a grade A diva

people didn't think favre was a piece of shit either until he left green bay, then we saw his dick, i mean his warts

jennings was beloved by packer fans, until they left, then he was a piece of shit

lacy was a big fan favorite, till he stopped producing, then people wanted him to die and celebrated him eating himself out of the NFL

raji was the king shit when he was nabbing ints and doing the truffle shuffle in the endzone. then became a total asshole once we decided not to pay him huge bucks

the list does go on

i do believe that a-rod IS a big diva. you see it multiple times a game when he fucks up starts throwing a fit like a little child and shows up his teammates on the field

[Pugger]

i believe he's been that way most of his career but we've turned a blind eye because of all the winning

ask anyone who isn't a packer fan and they will tell you he's a grade A diva

people didn't think favre was a piece of shit either until he left green bay, then we saw his dick, i mean his warts

jennings was beloved by packer fans, until they left, then he was a piece of shit

lacy was a big fan favorite, till he stopped producing, then people wanted him to die and celebrated him eating himself out of the NFL

raji was the king shit when he was nabbing ints and doing the truffle shuffle in the endzone. then became a total asshole once we decided not to pay him huge bucks

the list does go on

i do believe that a-rod IS a big diva. you see it multiple times a game when he fucks up starts throwing a fit like a little child and shows up his teammates on the field

AR isn't the first nor is he the last to act like this. There is the guy in NE who does the same damn stuff only he gets a pass because of all of his jewelry.

[run pMc]

i believe he's been that way most of his career but we've turned a blind eye because of all the winning

ask anyone who isn't a packer fan and they will tell you he's a grade A diva

people didn't think favre was a piece of shit either until he left green bay, then we saw his dick, i mean his warts

jennings was beloved by packer fans, until they left, then he was a piece of shit

lacy was a big fan favorite, till he stopped producing, then people wanted him to die and celebrated him eating himself out of the NFL

raji was the king shit when he was nabbing ints and doing the truffle shuffle in the endzone. then became a total asshole once we decided not to pay him huge bucks

the list does go on

i do believe that a-rod IS a big diva. you see it multiple times a game when he fucks up starts throwing a fit like a little child and shows up his teammates on the field

You just described a lot of what drives me crazy about NFL fandom.

[run pMc]

Rodgers is still good.
Rodgers is NOT playing up to his ability.

M3 is still running a lot of matchup based offense, but he doesn't have the same horses he used to.
M3 has introduced more scheme based plays, but in many cases they aren't being executed well.

ESB and MVS should not be expected to play as well as Cobb or Nelson did circa 2014, that's a lot to ask of any Day 3 rookie. They have an offense that should revolve around the trio of Rodgers, Adams, and Jones. When teams focus on doubling or scheming them out of the offense, M3 should have counters ready for those. The offense should also give the other players chances to produce, but again, there has to be something built into the offense to help give them an advantage on that matchup. You'd think a team that doubles or brackets Adams would open up other opportunities for others.

In the SEA game alone there were several throws Rodgers made that were off-target or underthrown (nevermind not seeing the open receivers). That makes me think his mechanics are off, which usually points to legs or footwork. I hope it's not the collarbone injuries.

I thought he was the Cal offense he came out of had a lot of high percentage checkdowns in it -- I don't see why he can't go back to this. Throwing deep on 3rd and short (or holding the ball waiting for rookies to separate and taking a bad sack) is asinine IMO. This last game I actually caught myself missing the 2 yard out to DickRod, because that would at least move the chains more often. You can't go 3-11 on 3rd down, especially when it includes 4 sacks. That's bad execution.

For as bad as the defense has performed over the last few seasons, you'd think the idea would be to keep them off the field and roll up 12 play drives. I personally would love to see this -- there's nothing like a couple of long methodical drives to rip the heart of a defense (and crowd, when on the road). Builds a lot of confidence for the offense, and takes it away from the opposition.

[pbmax]

Just be careful what check downs we are asking for. 2-3 yard throws on 3rd and 6 are terrible if its just a leak out route. If its a crosser or something that hits a WR in stride its different.

He should feel free to hit Jones for that pass on 1st and 2nd down. 3rd down I want him looking past the sticks. But given his physical condition, he shouldn't be running an extended offense from a crowded pocket.

[MadScientist]

i don't think the priority was placed on big plays 12 years ago. it's seems more like the last 6 to me. as for playing the short game you're right. where's the quick out and slant gone? i hate the offense right now.

It started in 2011, when they were hitting the big play with remarkable efficiency. Defenses adjusted, and the Packers made some changes to help keep hitting enough, or opening things for Rodgers running. That's not working now and the offense looks like inconsistent crap. I don't think any changes are going to make it work again, they need to try something else.

[gbgary]

Bill Bardwell @billbarnwell
Again: if a quarterback played like Aaron Rodgers did last night over an entire season, he would set the single-season yards per attempt record, the single-season passer rating record, and have the third-most passing yards in league history. Aaron Rodgers’s “problem” is a dream

i'd tell him not to believe what the stat line tells him but believe what his eyes tell him.

[run pMc]

Just be careful what check downs we are asking for. 2-3 yard throws on 3rd and 6 are terrible if its just a leak out route. If its a crosser or something that hits a WR in stride its different.

He should feel free to hit Jones for that pass on 1st and 2nd down. 3rd down I want him looking past the sticks. But given his physical condition, he shouldn't be running an extended offense from a crowded pocket.

I should be more clear there -- when it's 3rd and short, I'd be fine with them not sending everyone on deep outs and 15 yard digs. The 2 yard dumpoffs to DickRod on 3rd and 8 drove me crazy too. I think it's situational awareness and execution.
I'd take a checkdown to Aaron Jones if there's nobody within a few yards of him in most circumstances.

the QB has to make that throw though, preferably hitting the receiver in stride so they can secure the ball and turn upfield for YAC.

[pbmax]

I should be more clear there -- when it's 3rd and short, I'd be fine with them not sending everyone on deep outs and 15 yard digs. The 2 yard dumpoffs to DickRod on 3rd and 8 drove me crazy too. I think it's situational awareness and execution..

It also makes a difference that its Jones and not DickRod.

[Joemailman]

Perhaps Andy Herman, the host of the Pack-A-Day Packers podcast, said it best when he posited that the 2015 season “broke” Rodgers. After a rash of injuries to the wide receiver position and an Eddie Lacy on the downturn, Rodgers kept the ship afloat playing and expanding his signature sandlot style of football. He made it work, but he also imprinted into his DNA a desire to chase the big play. In the three years since, Rodgers still falls back into those habits; now, however, the off-platform throwing and the play-extending habits manifest differently. Whereas Rodgers has been sacked 30 times in 10 games in 2018, he was sacked just 28 times in all of 2014 (5.4%), including the aforementioned drive-killing third down sacks.

I think this is an accurate take.

[call_me_ishmael]

I think this is an accurate take.

I hadn't really considered that but it makes a lot of sense. He just hasn't been the same since then it seems. I wonder if they do any timing based things in training camp to simulate sacks. For example, after x time (which is very short), the play is blown dead and counts as a sack.

[pbmax]

i'd tell him not to believe what the stat line tells him but believe what his eyes tell him.

Even a 75% Rodgers is a Top 5 QB in the league.

[pbmax]

Sometimes the dysfunction confuses my internal calendar. Was 2015 the year Nelson got hurt?

[mraynrand]

Sometimes the dysfunction confuses my internal calendar. Was 2015 the year Nelson got hurt?

yep

[mraynrand]

You have to have players. If you're throwing to Abracadabra and Perillo, you're gonna lose games. DYoop from the other thread is correct - it's all about getting the physically talented players integrated into the offense - it needs to be there for MN and beyond.

[gbgary]

Even a 75% Rodgers is a Top 5 QB in the league.

nope. qb's better than rodgers right now with him physically at 95% (but at 75% mentally)...brees, mahomes, goffe, wentz, luck, rivers. these guys aren't undermining their coaches, breaching the all-world bad-body-language threshold set by cutler, and throwing out the book on qb mechanics.

[denverYooper]

lol

[mraynrand]

... breaching the all-world bad-body-language threshold set by cutler...

https://gifimage.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/jay-cutler-gif-3.gif

[PA Pack Fan]

nope. qb's better than rodgers right now with him physically at 95% (but at 75% mentally)...brees, mahomes, goffe, wentz, luck, rivers. these guys aren't undermining their coaches, breaching the all-world bad-body-language threshold set by cutler, and throwing out the book on qb mechanics.

I agree, and Russell even found a way to win, throw him in there.

[pbmax]

nope. qb's better than rodgers right now with him physically at 95% (but at 75% mentally)...brees, mahomes, goffe, wentz, luck, rivers. these guys aren't undermining their coaches, breaching the all-world bad-body-language threshold set by cutler, and throwing out the book on qb mechanics.

You got be kiddding me about Goff, Rivers and Wentz. Rivers is late period Favre.

[Fritz]

Rodgers, for the last few years, has been the king of bad body language. He's a master at rolling his eyes. All the disdain and disgust and superiority in the world is packed into that signature move.

[gbgary]

You got be kiddding me about Goff, Rivers and Wentz. Rivers is late period Favre.

besides stat lines there's all the other stuff i mentioned. heck forgot about big ben. yup rivers. he's thrown more tds, has a higher rating, and higher comp %. wentz was probably wrong but he's not become the coach killer rodgers has become. goff has easily been better than rodgers this year.

[wist43]

A lot of QB's in the league are better than Rodgers right now...

I think Rodgers has the ability to be the best, but he isn't interested in playing within the system - hence, he sucks.

Goff, Brees, Mahomes, Wilson, Brady, Rothlesrapist, Ryan, and Rivers are all better than Rodgers right now.

[mraynrand]

I think Rodgers has the ability to be the best, but he isn't interested in playing within the system - hence, he sucks.

Can you describe the system he’s playing outside of?

[wist43]

Can you describe the system he’s playing outside of?

Yeah, eschewing his reads to bolt the pocket and do nothing but look for the bomb downfield.

How many widescreen shots have we seen of guys wide open underneath and Rodgers not even giving the shorter receiver a thought.

It's a huge a problem.

[pbmax]

Yeah, eschewing his reads to bolt the pocket and do nothing but look for the bomb downfield.

How many widescreen shots have we seen of guys wide open underneath and Rodgers not even giving the shorter receiver a thought.

It's a huge a problem.

He doesn't get outside anymore because he is limited physically, I don't think he is anywhere near Gary's 95%.

But the check down thing can be an issue depending on the down. If its 3rd or 4th down, you need to throw to the sticks unless you are about to take a sack.

And I think that is another reason to suspect he is not physically whole, he seems to have no idea when he is about to be caught anymore.

[call_me_ishmael]

Follow Nagler, he has some good RTa tonight on the subject. Watching a few clips from 2011 and he just looks totally different in both how he throws and how soon he throws.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Can you describe the system he’s playing outside of?

Dummy runs a WCO. A-Rod is playing like a Martzist QB.

Off with dummy’s head, and if not J-MAC, if not Norm Chow, if not Ghanghis Khan (current HC of the Turkish national futbol team), then bring in Mike Martz.

Greatest show on hybrid grass!

[pbmax]

Packers running a route concept that the Falcons apparently unveiled in 2016. So McCarthy is adding things to this offense.

I think this is versus the Vikes in Week 2: https://twitter.com/BenFennell_NFL/status/1065298076376678401

Rodgers is obviously hurt at this point and takes what looks like the first read. If the commenters are correct, this was not a first, Jamaal Williams got stuffed on the next play and it was a FG. Had Rodgers waited, looks like Cobb/Williams uncovers like the other backs as he runs to the pylon.

Falcons, 2016: https://twitter.com/BenFennell_NFL/status/1065293367985258497

[pbmax]

Packers have traditionally not relied on RBs in the passing game under McCarthy. This one might not be free:

https://247sports.com/nfl/green-bay-packers/Article/Packers-checkdown-passing-125059298/

[pbmax]

Rodgers being more patient and making a better decision with 3 verticals including Jones:

https://twitter.com/BenFennell_NFL/status/1065367804554158080

[pbmax]

Very similar to routes run by James Jones here. But its the TE, he has a safety on him and they are playing man to man outside. Orlovsky keeps saying Cover 1 zone, but no one except the deep safety (starts on offensive left) drops to zones. It looks like man underneath and they are disguising it as Cover 2.

For this to work, the TE has to get open and he does, almost right away. This design is also nice because the DB who is faking Cover 2, is made miserable because there are three receivers in the line of sight for the QB. And the safety jumps up to get close to two of the underneath routes, leaving the outside one on one. Frankly, unless that TE is a world beater or that safety on him cannot play man to man, I'd prefer to leave that guy in single coverage.

I think the Packers have been trying to find mismatch guys (emphasis on TEs recently) but the record is mixed except for Jones. Once again, shoulda kept Cook.

https://twitter.com/danorlovsky7/status/1065209259695243264

[mraynrand]

Once again, shoulda kept Cook.

I keep returning to this too. Unless there was some personal problem (like Cook didn't want to stay under any circumstances or was a malcontent) this might have been one of the straws that broke Murphy's back re: TT. Inexplicable decision after a year of developing chemistry with Rodgers and the playoff run.

[mraynrand]

Oh, and the consensus seems to be that Rodgers is playing within the system, just not very well. Suck on it Wist. :)

[pbmax]

I keep returning to this too. Unless there was some personal problem (like Cook didn't want to stay under any circumstances or was a malcontent) this might have been one of the straws that broke Murphy's back re: TT. Inexplicable decision after a year of developing chemistry with Rodgers and the playoff run.

Wonder if they were more mad at the agent for shopping the offer or just more intrigued with Bennett's blocking?

[call_me_ishmael]

Said it was 1/100 last week with putting the gimme in the dirt. Did the same thing yesterday.

https://twitter.com/AaronNagler/status/1067073895398813696

He's not good anymore :(

[yetisnowman]

I've long been critical of Aaron's postseason performances since the super bowl run. The truth is his mechanics, accuracy, and consistency have been in steady decline over the last 3 or 4 seasons. He just always seemed to be able to put it all together for a long enough stretch of the season, and drag the team to victories. Injuries play a role surely. Personnel and scheme don't help. But man his accuracy and decision making have been mediocre this season. Again last night on two key 3rd downs he takes a sack when a check down near the sticks was available. Short hopping easy 5 yard throws. Even on his deep completions to Davante the last few weeks he was short and late on the throws. Turning TDs into long completions. He also seems averse to running for yardage and would rather through a low percentage deep ball than take 5-10 yds by scrambling. I find his play pretty average really. It's hard to stomach that given how we are paying him to be great. Maybe another off-season of healing, a re-tooled staff and scheme will turn it around. But man after what I've seen this year I'm not sure.

[call_me_ishmael]

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/11/26/green-bay-packers-offense-problems-mike-mccarthy-aaron-rodgers?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=themmqb

This is a just read article.


Yes, Rodgers’s unique style, which few QBs have enough talent to call upon, has led to some of his most spectacular plays. But in the aggregate, it also creates the illusion of dysfunction around him. To television viewers, Rodgers runs around because his O-line breaks down. Or because, presumably, receivers aren’t getting open. And they’re not getting open because the scheme isn’t helping them. Sometimes this is the case. But just as often, the glitches aren’t coming from everyone around the quarterback, but from the quarterback himself.

What’s most befuddling: Right when you start to think Rodgers will forever read the field with the choppiness of a rookie, he starts slinging the ball with perfectly disciplined timing and rhythm. When that switch is flipped, Rodgers borders on unstoppable. His greatness reaches such a level that, when the switch is flipped back, you understand why outside observers can’t help but assume the problem is everyone else.

This is where McCarthy is getting victimized. A great illustration of Rodgers’s unevenness came two weeks ago in Green Bay’s win over Miami. The Packers faced a 4th-and-2 near midfield. The Dolphins are a zone D that almost always plays nickel. Knowing their nickel would keep two linebackers on the field, McCarthy put in a fourth receiver and aligned Davante Adams in the backfield, so their top weapon could run his route against those overmatched linebackers. Adams did, breaking open on a short-angle route right in Rodgers’s immediate line of vision. The play worked perfectly. And Rodgers, for reasons not even Sigmund Freud could figure out, tried to break down and extend the play. A quick-strike play like this can’t be extended, though, and naturally, the protection cracked and Rodgers was sacked.


This is so startling accurate. Coach killer? Well, his uneven play the past 3-4 years is why the coach is getting sacked so I guess so technically. I wouldn't want to be the next coach. I don't think this is an attractive job because the expectations will be so high and I am not convinced Aaron can be reigned in. We shall see. I'd put in a call to Peyton and offer him a Gruden. You need someone that the QB will respect enough to get back to basics and stop practicing calculus when a homeboy sucks at basic algebra.

[run pMc]

Yeah I read that SI piece, and agreed with most of it.

During several plays on the 2nd TD drive I caught myself thinking "hey -- that's a good play design/call", and thought Rodgers looked sharp...and after that it went to hell.

Someone commented this on Nagler's feed: "The highest paid player in the nfl should be able to throw an accurate pass 5 yards on target with no pressure 100% of the time." In 2 consecutive weeks, he's failed at this.

Stubby sure ain't perfect, but the players have to run the plays being called. An inaccurate Rodgers throwing to mostly rookie WRs is a bad recipe.
Regardless of what happens with M3 (I think he's gone, FWIW), Rodgers needs to fix his mechanics. They are a mess. I'm optimistic the rookie WR's will come around, but this is a year where they (and the young CB's) take their lumps and learn. I know "wait til next year" is a lame take, but it applies.

M3 has taken this team to 3 NFC Championships, won a Superb Owl, and a 15-1 regular season, and managed to keep this team afloat amidst losing slumps and injuries. He's not a bad coach and will get hired again. Quickly.
I think his time here is about up and a fresh start is needed.

[Bossman641]

Good article... for whatever reason Rodgers just does not want to get the ball out on time with any kind of consistency.

[pbmax]

I've long been critical of Aaron's postseason performances since the super bowl run. The truth is his mechanics, accuracy, and consistency have been in steady decline over the last 3 or 4 seasons. He just always seemed to be able to put it all together for a long enough stretch of the season, and drag the team to victories. Injuries play a role surely. Personnel and scheme don't help. But man his accuracy and decision making have been mediocre this season. Again last night on two key 3rd downs he takes a sack when a check down near the sticks was available. Short hopping easy 5 yard throws. Even on his deep completions to Davante the last few weeks he was short and late on the throws. Turning TDs into long completions. He also seems averse to running for yardage and would rather through a low percentage deep ball than take 5-10 yds by scrambling. I find his play pretty average really. It's hard to stomach that given how we are paying him to be great. Maybe another off-season of healing, a re-tooled staff and scheme will turn it around. But man after what I've seen this year I'm not sure.

I get the criticism, but I'd like to know which of his bad throws went five yards. The one in the dirt on the flat route went 15-20 yards sideways.

[QBME]

I get the criticism, but I'd like to know which of his bad throws went five yards. The one in the dirt on the flat route went 15-20 yards sideways.

You piqued my interest. Went back and watched it again, then did the math. My best sketchy geometry concludes the pass needed 26.45 yards plus proper velocity and elevation for a completion.

Good call. The 5 yard assessment was 90 degrees from the LOS.

[pbmax]

You piqued my interest. Went back and watched it again, then did the math. My best sketchy geometry concludes the pass needed 26.45 yards plus proper velocity and elevation for a completion.

Good call. The 5 yard assessment was 90 degrees from the LOS.

Yeah. I am not saying he is his normal accurate self, but it wasn't an inexplicable duck.

[Freak Out]

Bullshit. He's paid a gazzilion dollars to make that pass. Put some fucking oomph behind it.

[call_me_ishmael]

It's because his foot work is garbage right now.

[MadScientist]

Yeah. I am not saying he is his normal accurate self, but it wasn't an inexplicable duck.


Bullshit. He's paid a gazzilion dollars to make that pass. Put some fucking oomph behind it.

Seriously. There's no excuse for that bad of a throw at this level. I'd excuse it once in a while at HS JV level and that's about it. The old Rodgers makes that throw in his sleep.

[pbmax]

I with Partial on this one. Footwork, not arm. Rodgers also said it was a no laces throw.

https://twitter.com/AaronNagler/status/1067073895398813696

[pbmax]

Pass protection or Rodgers?

https://twitter.com/SconnieSports/status/1067278342649458689


I think pass protection. Graham has to clear Barr to be open, he's not immediately open. Rodgers has to hop out of the way as Linsley and Bell barely get the stunt blocked. But he knows if he jumps inside Bualga's guy is going to be free, so he's going to run to clear him. But stunt guy #2 is there as well.

[mraynrand]

^^^^ When a team is 4-6-1, and declining, there usually are multiple problems. The RG position and RT positions are bad/marginal, and Taylor regressed. That's kinda how Rodgers got hurt in the first place.

[pbmax]

^^^^ When a team is 4-6-1, and declining, there usually are multiple problems. The RG position and RT positions are bad/marginal, and Taylor regressed. That's kinda how Rodgers got hurt in the first place.

Someone on Twitter was mad about Packer fans blaming McCarthy 100% for the team's issues. He got back a LOT of comments about how no one saw that as the case.

Compared to Favre-A-Palooza, people are being far more rational about this. Favre was basically two generations of Packer fans first love.

[ThunderDan]

Pass protection or Rodgers?

https://twitter.com/SconnieSports/status/1067278342649458689


I think pass protection. Graham has to clear Barr to be open, he's not immediately open. Rodgers has to hop out of the way as Linsley and Bell barely get the stunt blocked. But he knows if he jumps inside Bualga's guy is going to be free, so he's going to run to clear him. But stunt guy #2 is there as well.
That's the play I commented o in the game day thread. When Graham finally clears the LB Arod has two hands on the ball at waist level to protect from a strip sack going past the rush. You can't throw from that position. He got hit as he was getting the ball into throwing position.

[denverYooper]

That's the play I commented o in the game day thread. When Graham finally clears the LB Arod has two hands on the ball at waist level to protect from a strip sack going past the rush. You can't throw from that position. He got hit as he was getting the ball into throwing position.

It looks like he is about to reset to fire for a split second too but then feels Hunter caving the other side.

There was the briefest of moments for a flip to Graham and we've seen Rodgers make those plays in the past but it's not happening enough this year.

[Bossman641]

Pass protection or Rodgers?

https://twitter.com/SconnieSports/status/1067278342649458689


I think pass protection. Graham has to clear Barr to be open, he's not immediately open. Rodgers has to hop out of the way as Linsley and Bell barely get the stunt blocked. But he knows if he jumps inside Bualga's guy is going to be free, so he's going to run to clear him. But stunt guy #2 is there as well.

If he gets the ball out on time it looks like he could have hit Graham before the pocket collapsed. He also had Adams open with about the same timing as graham.

https://mobile.twitter.com/benbbaldwin/status/1066879628697108480

[ThunderDan]

If he gets the ball out on time it looks like he could have hit Graham before the pocket collapsed. He also had Adams open with about the same timing as graham.

https://mobile.twitter.com/benbbaldwin/status/1066879628697108480

You can't see Adams on that link at all after the first 5 yards.

[Bossman641]

What season or seasons was it when Rodgers didn't trust the line and took a ton of sacks? Feels like we're back to that. He's fading away on a ton of passes... mental effect of the knee injury?

[Bossman641]

You can't see Adams on that link at all after the first 5 yards.

Let me see if I can find the link. I saw another view that showed the play from the offensive backfield.

[mraynrand]

Pass protection or Rodgers?

https://twitter.com/SconnieSports/status/1067278342649458689


I think pass protection. Graham has to clear Barr to be open, he's not immediately open. Rodgers has to hop out of the way as Linsley and Bell barely get the stunt blocked. But he knows if he jumps inside Bualga's guy is going to be free, so he's going to run to clear him. But stunt guy #2 is there as well.

A draw play would have worked there, assuming a Packer guard or center could put a hat on Barr. Linemen, much like at Seattle, are entirely focused on getting Rodgers. They know it's a pass and they have zero reason to honor a run.

[gbgary]

Pass protection or Rodgers?

https://twitter.com/SconnieSports/status/1067278342649458689


I think pass protection.
Rodgers. it's not like Rodgers doesn't know Graham's route before the play even starts, or doesn't see him, or physically couldn't make that throw. this was a mental mistake. that's why i say he's not 100% mentally. he's got injury on his mind, he's got that stupid trustworthiness thing on his mind, and whatever else.

[Joemailman]

It's because his foot work is garbage right now.

Agreed. Either the knee is bothering him, or he got into some bad habits when it was an issue. Maybe he could hire MM as his personal coach and work out the problems in the offseason.

[mraynrand]

Agreed. Either the knee is bothering him, or he got into some bad habits when it was an issue. Maybe he could hire MM as his personal coach and work out the problems in the offseason.

That offseason workout with Alex Smith and Cutler is gonna be lit.

[yetisnowman]

I get the criticism, but I'd like to know which of his bad throws went five yards. The one in the dirt on the flat route went 15-20 yards sideways.

I was just sort of speaking flippantly. It was a pass 5 yards forward and whatever 12-15 yards laterally. However you wanna slice it, clear line of sight , quick, easy ass throw. I can make that throw probably 97% of the time, at least get to receivers hands. His throw to ESB in Seattle was even easier. It's as bad of a throw an NFL QB can make and he did it 2 weeks in a row in critical spots. You want to split hairs and say it's not a duck ok. It's garbage is what it is. Inexcuseable.

[yetisnowman]

Pass protection or Rodgers?

https://twitter.com/SconnieSports/status/1067278342649458689


I think pass protection. Graham has to clear Barr to be open, he's not immediately open. Rodgers has to hop out of the way as Linsley and Bell barely get the stunt blocked. But he knows if he jumps inside Bualga's guy is going to be free, so he's going to run to clear him. But stunt guy #2 is there as well.

The blocking sucked but he had a giant , wide open target right in his line of sight. It's the NFL there's dudes gonna a million miles a minute in every direction. It's simply a a play Aaron has to make.

[mraynrand]

I was just sort of speaking flippantly. It was a pass 5 yards forward and whatever 12-15 yards laterally.

People use their high school geometry here. Get used to it.

I don't want to live in a world where people don't bring high school mathematics into casual sports talk.

[Carolina_Packer]

https://aminus3.s3.amazonaws.com/image/g0007/u00006960/i00890842/e931a5f3b02b3af9ea7a1727044c8220_large.jpg

[pbmax]

It looks like he is about to reset to fire for a split second too but then feels Hunter caving the other side.

There was the briefest of moments for a flip to Graham and we've seen Rodgers make those plays in the past but it's not happening enough this year.

I believe this is exactly the case. He is a split second slower and his one is a full second worse.

[pbmax]

Rodgers. it's not like Rodgers doesn't know Graham's route before the play even starts, or doesn't see him, or physically couldn't make that throw. this was a mental mistake. that's why i say he's not 100% mentally. he's got injury on his mind, he's got that stupid trustworthiness thing on his mind, and whatever else.

If he stands there to throw to Graham after he's by Barr he is going down unless he just lobs a jump pass to the right.

Its terrible pass pro. Rodgers used to have no pocket presence and we've seen him bail way too early. This is not that.

[pbmax]

Somewhere on Twitter is a screen cap (2 of them) where Williams appears open on 3rd an 1. From the behind LOS cam, there is a Mike LB standing in the way. If someone can find them, I would appreciate it.

[pbmax]

Adjusted Net Yards per Attempt


ANY/A - adjusted net yards per passing attempt: (pass yards + 20*(pass TD) - 45*(interceptions thrown) - sack yards)/(passing attempts + sacks). See AY/A. Note that we are now using 20 yards per TD instead of 10, because of research by Chase Stuart at the p-f-r blog (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/index4db6.html?p=633).


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtCEo07V4AAZLzW.jpg

[denverYooper]

Football Outsiders has the Packers' O as 5th in DVOA, surprisingly enough.

[Joemailman]

Football Outsiders has the Packers' O as 5th in DVOA, surprisingly enough.

Packers passing DVOA ranks 9th and rushing DVOA ranks 2nd. Yet Packers are 7th in passing attempts and 30th in rushing attempts. A team not playing to its strengths?

[pbmax]

Packers passing DVOA ranks 9th and rushing DVOA ranks 2nd. Yet Packers are 7th in passing attempts and 30th in rushing attempts. A team not playing to its strengths?

Yes, but that might be about 5-7 plays a game. I think a more important set of plays are situational football, 3rd down and medium to short plus red zone.

[pbmax]

Adjusted Net Yards per Attempt





So that definition for ANY/A is legit but I am not sure what the value he is calculating here. Might be yards over average performance, but unsure.

[pbmax]

Football Outsiders has the Packers' O as 5th in DVOA, surprisingly enough.

They've been Top 10 or 12 for a long stretch of the season, which is one reason to suspect the team is getting results worse than it performance would normally earn.

[Joemailman]

They've been Top 10 or 12 for a long stretch of the season, which is one reason to suspect the team is getting results worse than it performance would normally earn.

But what are they doing badly that DVOA doesn't pick up on? I'm kind of wondering how a passing offense that is among the worst in completion percentage and sacks allowed could have such a relatively high passing DVOA.

[pbmax]

But what are they doing badly that DVOA doesn't pick up on? I'm kind of wondering how a passing offense that is among the worst in completion percentage and sacks allowed could have such a relatively high passing DVOA.

I haven't been keeping up with them, but the baseline calculation is, down by down, are you getting a plus grade on the play? Similar to coaches grading players. Get at least 4 yards on first down? Get half the remaining yardage on second and on third down get past the sticks.

So Rodgers increased Yards Per Attempts helps here, he can move the ball and avoid 3rd downs while getting first downs. They can score from depth. Jones has scored from place other than 3rd down. So 3rd down failures and red zone problems, which count against them, aren't as numerous as they could be with a less talented QB.

They are getting an opponent adjustment in their favor for the defenses they have faced (Buffalo, Sea, Vikes twice. and Bears).

They are also getting credit for some garbage time offense versus Washington and Detroit.

They could goose this number by running a bit more, especially after teams adjust in second half. The weird thing is that Jones should be MORE effective in the 2nd half after teams adjust to the opening script and drop safeties into coverage.

[pbmax]

But what are they doing badly that DVOA doesn't pick up on? I'm kind of wondering how a passing offense that is among the worst in completion percentage and sacks allowed could have such a relatively high passing DVOA.

Here's the explanation about how you win DVOA but lose the game to Seattle:


This was not the only game this week where the winning team had the lower DVOA rating. The first game of the week really stands out, as Green Bay lost to Seattle but earns 45.3% DVOA compared to -10.6% DVOA for the Seahawks. Green Bay outgained Seattle 7.5 yards per play to 5.5 yards per play; there were no interceptions and Seattle had both of the game's fumbles. Seattle did a much better job of grouping its successful plays into extended drives, as Green Bay had only one drive of seven plays while Seattle had five drives of at least seven plays. That big DVOA difference moves Green Bay up to No. 8 while Seattle drops from No. 8 to No. 12.

In some ways, this might be the worst kind of team for McCarthy to coach given his predilection for weird game management. His defense can be good but it not reliable. His offense runs hot and cold and is especially cold in the 2nd half unless the game is beyond two scores and the defense backs off. Its a tailored made McCarthy underperformance unit.

[mraynrand]

They could goose this number by running a bit more, especially after teams adjust in second half. The weird thing is that Jones should be MORE effective in the 2nd half after teams adjust to the opening script and drop safeties into coverage.

I wonder if more teams will try crowding the A gaps with LBs. Presumably, MN did that because their LBS are pretty athletic and can drop into coverage pretty fast. Still, the counter to that is interesting, since it can stop a run call and make Rodgers jumpy expecting immediate pass rush. One counter would be to set up a short slant/drag into the LB zone (if the LBs rush) and/or RPO look with a hand off to the back if the LBs sprint back into coverage on the snap. Thoughts?

[pbmax]

I wonder if more teams will try crowding the A gaps with LBs. Presumably, MN did that because their LBS are pretty athletic and can drop into coverage pretty fast. Still, the counter to that is interesting, since it can stop a run call and make Rodgers jumpy expecting immediate pass rush. One counter would be to set up a short slant/drag into the LB zone (if the LBs rush) and/or RPO look with a hand off to the back if the LBs sprint back into coverage on the snap. Thoughts?

Its a hallmark of Zimmer to pressure the A gaps just like Capers did. Only Zimmer's goal is to induce confusion if I understand correctly. He doesn't blitz at an extraordinarily high rate.

But its good plan for an offensive team that doesn't like to throw into the middle of the field. The obvious answer is backs to the flat or short outside zone and TE down the seam. Or slants.

It should be a simple WCO offense call to flood a zone that is missing a backer and get someone open against a LB out of position. You could play action or RPO the LB and if he drops off, then hand it off.

Someone said the WR blocking was bad. The other thing you could do is legally crack back all those inside defenders and toss the ball to the edge like on the first TD.

This is more Nutz area of expertise. I have never designed an offense. I just yell at it while its on TV.

[Bossman641]

Here's the explanation about how you win DVOA but lose the game to Seattle:



In some ways, this might be the worst kind of team for McCarthy to coach given his predilection for weird game management. His defense can be good but it not reliable. His offense runs hot and cold and is especially cold in the 2nd half unless the game is beyond two scores and the defense backs off. Its a tailored made McCarthy underperformance unit.

So DVOA tends to overinflate big play, quick strike performances?

[pbmax]

So DVOA tends to overinflate big play, quick strike performances?

Maybe? It will overestimate your offense if you tend to move the ball but don't score a ton it would seem.

The theory is that possession is the big controlling factor in football. Better to have it and struggle a bit than not have it. But you just have to look at NE #7 rating and see that its fine with ball control 10 play drives for scores too.

Packer are just missing the big passing plays for scores this year. Only Adams is a regular threat. MVS and Allison got deep occasionally.

[denverYooper]

I wonder if more teams will try crowding the A gaps with LBs. Presumably, MN did that because their LBS are pretty athletic and can drop into coverage pretty fast. Still, the counter to that is interesting, since it can stop a run call and make Rodgers jumpy expecting immediate pass rush. One counter would be to set up a short slant/drag into the LB zone (if the LBs rush) and/or RPO look with a hand off to the back if the LBs sprint back into coverage on the snap. Thoughts?

They had Harrison Smith up close as well. That seemed to cause extra indecision.

[pbmax]

They had Harrison Smith up close as well. That seemed to cause extra indecision.

I think the pressure on the line stuff is important, but remember that Zimmer commented that his first adjustment was to drop a safety back into coverage when they were getting burned with Adams one on one outside.

Packers offense looked good until that adjustment.

Then once again versus a Cover 2 look with man underneath the Packers offense folded. Its been more than 10 years since that D befuddled McCarthy and his QB when the Bears ran it under Lovie. They still haven't solved it.

[CaptainKickass]

My theory on Rodgers - with the amazingly below his ability and his average performance this year, particularly the ducks, bounced balls and awkward throwing motions - is that the man is playing injured.
Chicago fucked him up AND he visibly fucked up his throwing hand at least twice during games and shown on replay. He won't be the same until maybe after this season is over. What we're seeing is a 75% Aaron Rodgers. And a 75% Aaron Rodgers is still better than the majority of NFL talent.

[run pMc]

Its a hallmark of Zimmer to pressure the A gaps just like Capers did. Only Zimmer's goal is to induce confusion if I understand correctly. He doesn't blitz at an extraordinarily high rate.

But its good plan for an offensive team that doesn't like to throw into the middle of the field. The obvious answer is backs to the flat or short outside zone and TE down the seam. Or slants.

It should be a simple WCO offense call to flood a zone that is missing a backer and get someone open against a LB out of position. You could play action or RPO the LB and if he drops off, then hand it off.

Someone said the WR blocking was bad. The other thing you could do is legally crack back all those inside defenders and toss the ball to the edge like on the first TD.

This is more Nutz area of expertise. I have never designed an offense. I just yell at it while its on TV.

Philly ate up the Vikings last year in the playoffs using slants. I feel like there are a lot more go routes, digs/comebacks, and deep outs than slants run by the Packers WR. You sure don't see a lot of throws to the RBs, at least not where it's a 1st or 2nd read in the progression.
I think the Packers are more interested in quick strike football than methodical drives, which IMO would benefit a defense that plays a lot of snaps. Would help out poor Kenny Clark and his 80% play snap usage. Trouble is, they have exactly ONE healthy veteran pass catcher, and now the OL is banged up. Maybe switching to a more run oriented offense is the way to go with Jamaal and A.Jones, at least against the Cardinals?

[Rutnstrut]

Philly ate up the Vikings last year in the playoffs using slants. I feel like there are a lot more go routes, digs/comebacks, and deep outs than slants run by the Packers WR. You sure don't see a lot of throws to the RBs, at least not where it's a 1st or 2nd read in the progression.
I think the Packers are more interested in quick strike football than methodical drives, which IMO would benefit a defense that plays a lot of snaps. Would help out poor Kenny Clark and his 80% play snap usage. Trouble is, they have exactly ONE healthy veteran pass catcher, and now the OL is banged up. Maybe switching to a more run oriented offense is the way to go with Jamaal and A.Jones, at least against the Cardinals?




There have been MANY times this season where switching to a run oriented O would be beneficial. Stubby and Rodgers refuse to do it, absolutely refuse. If it's working and they get tied or down by 3 with most of the second half left. Stubby or Rodgers panic and start throwing it deep, not very successfully either. Stubby sure as fuck is broken, I fear Rodgers is as well. They need someone new, with some balls and brains to fix it fast. That probably isn't possible. That's on Murphy for being happy with the status quo for years and letting things slide.

[pbmax]

It doesn't need to be a run oriented offense. If you ran Jones like he was DeMarco Murray or Derrick Henry, he' be out after the halfway mark of the season. You also would be underusing your best weapon. They do need to run more, especially in 2nd half and run more play action.

You need an offense that is built to sustain a drive with first downs, not big plays. They can no longer afford to abandon the middle of the field. Touchdown to check down has to be lit afire.

You run the fast and quick offense that showed up in one drive versus the Vikings last week and other times versus Bears and Vikings at home and you run it every other or every third series to preserve its effectiveness (now that i wrote it, might be too late to worry about it this year but whatever) until you can more fully flesh it out.

You hire an actual OC and put him in charge fo implementing it and calling it. Then you hire a game management guru put him in the booth with an electric shock trigger that reboots McCarthy when he starts calling timeouts on first down while playing defense at the end of the half.

[Rutnstrut]

I would PAY to be the one that gets to activate the shock collar.

[denverYooper]

I would PAY to be the one that gets to activate the shock collar.

They should have a raffle.

[pbmax]

They should have a raffle.

"Tonights Shock The Coach raffle winner is in Section 410, Row 12, Seat 7. Please report to fan services...

Look at him go! He's sprinting to the coaching booths!"

[QBME]

Not sure this is the proper thread, but Mrs. QBME sent me this link -

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/went-wrong-packerland-142624265.html?.tsrc=fauxdal

I read it and it occurred to me that the well laid out article is just a summation of the various observations and opinions expressed from the intelligently informed here on the site.

But a pretty good distillation, IMHO.

[mraynrand]

Not sure this is the proper thread, but Mrs. QBME sent me this link -

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/went-wrong-packerland-142624265.html?.tsrc=fauxdal

I read it and it occurred to me that the well laid out article is just a summation of the various observations and opinions expressed from the intelligently informed here on the site.

Well, there goes my authorship credit.

[mraynrand]

"A team spokesperson declined an interview request for Thompson."

Anyone wanna lay bets on TT never answering anything but softball questions in public again?

[denverYooper]

Not sure this is the proper thread, but Mrs. QBME sent me this link -

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/went-wrong-packerland-142624265.html?.tsrc=fauxdal

I read it and it occurred to me that the well laid out article is just a summation of the various observations and opinions expressed from the intelligently informed here on the site.

But a pretty good distillation, IMHO.

That's the same article posted in the Aaron Rodgers thread, just on yahoo instead of SI.

[QBME]

That's the same article posted in the Aaron Rodgers thread, just on yahoo instead of SI.

Oops..

[ThunderDan]

"Tonights Shock The Coach raffle winner is in Section 410, Row 12, Seat 7. Please report to fan services...

Look at him go! He's sprinting to the coaching booths!"

Doesn't look like Lambeau has a Section 410. MM is safe for the week.

[pbmax]

"A team spokesperson declined an interview request for Thompson."

Anyone wanna lay bets on TT never answering anything but softball questions in public again?

No one wanted any public part of this. Van Pelt wouldn't even talk and he doesn't work there anymore.

[Pugger]

No one wanted any public part of this. Van Pelt wouldn't even talk and he doesn't work there anymore.

The Packers have always tried to keep dirty laundry in house so it isn't easy to find out what is really going on at 1265.

[call_me_ishmael]

This is a must read article. Wow!

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/11/29/green-bay-packers-problems-aaron-rodgers-mike-mccarthy-ted-thompson

[Anti-Polar Bear]

This is a must read article. Wow!

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/11/29/green-bay-packers-problems-aaron-rodgers-mike-mccarthy-ted-thompson

Fake news!

Actually old news. Pb even sought to debunk the article in another thread. And yes, I was a source regarding Todd's failure to acquire moss, lynch and Tony g. :)

[Vincenzo]

Where’s the Favre is a living legend thread?
In the 253 games we saw Favre play he never put in an effort the way Aaron Rodgers did today!

[smuggler]

He's still a top-5 QB, even with the knee injury. But he's not head- and- shoulders better than everyone else, which was true from late 2010 until 2014. Really, the offense around him isn't nearly what it was before. The offensive line isn't as good, and the receivers aren't nearly as good as in the past.

[gbgary]

are you looking forward to 8-8 the next three or four years? maybe he'll retire after 2021 (when he's 39) and do the Packers a favor.

[texaspackerbacker]

I get sick of reading this ignorant shit from a bunch of ingrates bad mouthing Aaron Rodgers. The plain fact is, he is damn near as good as he ever was - the best QB in the history of the league, and the team around him is fairly mediocre.

[Fosco33]

Rodgers is fine. This year can be chalked up to injury, avg Oline, young WRs and stale scheme.

That said - he does hold the ball (and throw aways) and 3rd down are off this year.

Yesterday I joked ‘it was 3rd and 40’ - and it played out with long incomplete passes... that’s on Arod imo. Early in the season, his knee took away the scramble. He ran it a few times yesterday and maybe believes the 20% shot at a big play is more important that a 1st down?

[run pMc]

He's still good, but his accuracy is off, his OL banged up and most of his receivers are new this year (although you'd think they'd be on same page by now). He's missing reads, reluctant to throw open his receivers, and played through a knee injury. Oh, and some of the play calls are iffy. There's a lot of small things that add up to poor overall execution. He's statistically having a decent year, but you can see throws every week a Top 10 NFL (nevermind future HOF) QB should make.

Most of the issues can be fixed -- the rookie WR's will get better, they can improve OL depth via draft. Coaching and fundamentals may help. A scheme where they don't run 4 go routes on 3rd and 4 might help too. I read the collarbone/knee injuries shouldn't impact his throwing accuracy, but maybe they're wrong? Maybe it's just poor/lazy mechanics?

[gbgary]

he's been great, an all-timer, and still has great moments. and yes the team hasn't done him any favors. but he's not what he was. he'll be 36 next season and he's not worth the cap hit. extending him was a horrible mistake. next year's schedule makes this one look like a cake walk. i don't have confidence the Packers can put a competitive team around him (maybe they'll surprise me in this respect but i doubt it). it's that simple.

[denverYooper]

People get too caught up in the contract. He has made a ton of money for the team and for the league. He's still a smart QB with a lot of talent and has been the face of the franchise. No damn team in the league lets that walk unless they have another Rodgers or Mahomes in the wings. You try to rebuild around himwhile you still can and hope for 1-2 solid shots at a ring. They're paying him what he deserves. Period.

You let him walk with what as a backup plan? Tank, take a shot at a QB in the draft and hope you find a good OC or HC to prop them up with scheme? That is a lot of moving parts and you are probably looking at 5-6 years to iterate through QBs and coaches to maybe get there.

If we're having this same discussion for the next 2 years then sure, move on. Draft a QB high if they crap out next year and sit him for a 1-2. I'm just not ready to wander out into the desert just yet.

[Fritz]

I think we all just have to agree that this year is a lost cause, even insofar as Rodgers getting "back on track." We'd hoped that firing MM would somehow have helped, but it clearly did not.

So it is what it is this year, and we all must simply hope that with a better offensive line, this year's experience for the young receivers, and some time to heal, that Rodgers will return to his old form next year.

I think I'd start playing Kizer here and there. You've got to get a bead on whether you think he can be a competent NFL backup.

[Pugger]

This ain't the year to tank and hope to draft a top QB. This isn't a great QB class. There are maybe 2 worth taking the first round and both of them are grass green - Herbert from Oregon and Lock from Missouri.

[mraynrand]

What you want at this point is for the GM to surround Rodgers with more talent and hire a coach who changes the scheme just enough so that you don't always need 95-100% Rodgers to win games. Maybe 80-90% Rodgers wins you your typical game against a Detroilet or AZ or 2018 ATL. Then, for a big game versus Chicago or the Rams, or a playoff game where the defense gets lit up a bit, then 95% Rodgers, who isn't beat all the hell up from getting sacked all year, comes through.

[call_me_ishmael]

What you need is Aaron Rodgers to learn how to set his F'n feet and throw the football like a quarterback is supposed to. He's not in an ice dancing competition, set your damn feet and let it fly. His fundamentals are garbage right now. That is why he a bottom 10 QB in the NFL right now despite all of the arm and brain talent in the world.

New coach needs to get him back to basics. Set a play cock for 3 seconds in camp. If the ball isn't out if three seconds, play is blown dead. Every morning in camp do an hour one-on-one in footwork exclusively.

They need him to go back to basics. It's interesting to me how the game he was high as a kite, couldn't run around, and had his nervous system slowed down that he had his most accurate (part of) game by far and threw a historically great pass to Geronimo for the TD.

[mraynrand]

New coach needs to get him back to basics. Set a play cock for 3 seconds in camp.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Gc5psrFIQA

[gbgary]

This ain't the year to tank and hope to draft a top QB. This isn't a great QB class. There are maybe 2 worth taking the first round and both of them are grass green - Herbert from Oregon and Lock from Missouri.
it's the perfect year to tank the last two games but qb is the last thing they need out of this draft.


People get too caught up in the contract. He has made a ton of money for the team and for the league. He's still a smart QB with a lot of talent and has been the face of the franchise. No damn team in the league lets that walk unless they have another Rodgers or Mahomes in the wings. You try to rebuild around himwhile you still can and hope for 1-2 solid shots at a ring. They're paying him what he deserves. Period.

You let him walk with what as a backup plan? Tank, take a shot at a QB in the draft and hope you find a good OC or HC to prop them up with scheme? That is a lot of moving parts and you are probably looking at 5-6 years to iterate through QBs and coaches to maybe get there.

If we're having this same discussion for the next 2 years then sure, move on. Draft a QB high if they crap out next year and sit him for a 1-2. I'm just not ready to wander out into the desert just yet.
Rodgers cap hit really gets ridiculous in 2020 ($36m). maybe he'll do the Packers a favor and retire after 2021, when he's 39, and the cap hit is only $11m lol. there's no way you let him walk and no one in their right mind would trade for him how. we're stuck with the qb situation until the end of 2021. and no he does not deserve what they're paying him. extending him was a horrible decision.


it is what it is this year, and we all must simply hope that with a better offensive line, this year's experience for the young receivers, and some time to heal, that Rodgers will return to his old form next year.

I think I'd start playing Kizer here and there. You've got to get a bead on whether you think he can be a competent NFL backup.
yup...and let him get his knee, and anything else, fixed.

[pbmax]

Gary, his cap in 2020 is $32,600,000

By the time the cap is calculated, it'll be close to the same percentage as it will be for next year, 14%

And four other QBs will exceed his numbers with new deals.

[Carolina_Packer]

Rodgers has to be super-frustrated with the lack of overall development/production from the young receivers. They asked him about some of the throws he has missed this year and he did own the ones that he has missed, but he also said he is not in sync with the receivers. When asked why it has taken so long to develop that chemistry, he said something interesting, and honest. He used the word details, as if to say the receivers are not consistently getting enough of the details right to make the plays work effectively. Certainly having Cobb hurt most of the year and not being able to help much has affected the offense, as has losing Allison in the middle of the season.

I'm not saying this would have made any difference, but perhaps BG should have tried to get a veteran WR to help out once Allison went down for the year and Cobb was so banged up. I know it takes time to get in sync with Rodgers and earn his trust. Also, who would have been available that could have made much difference. That is the dice you roll when half of your new WR corp. is made up of rookies and first year players. Rodgers does not have the luxury of time. Hopefully the team is able to find a worst to first head coach (ala Nagy) who can get this offense firing on all cylinders next year. With a healed up Rodgers and receivers with one more year of experience, and possibly another solid weapon to add to the mix with Devante, they can get this thing turned around.

[gbgary]

Gary, his cap in 2020 is $32,600,000

By the time the cap is calculated, it'll be close to the same percentage as it will be for next year, 14%

And four other QBs will exceed his numbers with new deals.

yes $32.6. my mistake. as for the other qb's...will they be trending-down, 37-38 year old, injury prone, prima donnas?

[Rutnstrut]

I think part of the problem is that we are used to super Rodgers that can carry a team with bad coaching and mediocre talent. The last few years Rodgers has been showing his human side more and more, the writing has been on the wall. Add to that he was injured, and the Packers piss poor job of getting talent around him. He is playing at a mere human level now and there is little talent around him to help.

[gbgary]

I think part of the problem is that we are used to super Rodgers that can carry a team with bad coaching and mediocre talent. The last few years Rodgers has been showing his human side more and more, the writing has been on the wall. Add to that he was injured, and the Packers piss poor job of getting talent around him. He is playing at a mere human level now and there is little talent around him to help.

that and the all the key guys have gotten old at the same time.

[call_me_ishmael]

I mean, we all say the talent is horrible, but in the same breath we all say Aaron Jones is uniquely special and a difference maker, Devante Adams is a top 5 WR, and Bakhtiari is a premier LT along with a quality center. So, what gives? I agree they need more talent but it's not he's throwing the ball to Taco Wallace with Samkon Gado in the backfield.

[pbmax]

I mean, we all say the talent is horrible, but in the same breath we all say Aaron Jones is uniquely special and a difference maker, Devante Adams is a top 5 WR, and Bakhtiari is a premier LT along with a quality center. So, what gives? I agree they need more talent but it's not he's throwing the ball to Taco Wallace with Samkon Gado in the backfield.

Like the defense, the disconnect is between the people who handed over the talent and the coaches who work with it. With an added bonus. Rodgers is still playing like the offense should resemble 2014 or 2016. That isn't working anymore.

[Rutnstrut]

Like the defense, the disconnect is between the people who handed over the talent and the coaches who work with it. With an added bonus. Rodgers is still playing like the offense should resemble 2014 or 2016. That isn't working anymore.



So is Rodgers stubby 2.0 or is he really version 1.

[beveaux1]

I think we all just have to agree that this year is a lost cause, even insofar as Rodgers getting "back on track." We'd hoped that firing MM would somehow have helped, but it clearly did not.

So it is what it is this year, and we all must simply hope that with a better offensive line, this year's experience for the young receivers, and some time to heal, that Rodgers will return to his old form next year.

I think I'd start playing Kizer here and there. You've got to get a bead on whether you think he can be a competent NFL backup.

I agree with this. I think that in this offense it takes experience for WRs to earn Rodgers' trust. During Rodgers' time with the team, approximately every 2 to 3 years, we drafted a WR in the 2nd or 3rd round. That WR was either the number 3 or 4 receiver his first year, moved up the chart the next year, and became a trusted No. 1 or 2 after his 3rd year. After Adams was drafted in 2014, we have not used a high draft pick on a WR, and the lack of talent and experience shows.

I'm going to assume the bulk of his problems this year have been the talent on the field. If we assume that they're rounding routes, going to the wrong depth on the route, making the wrong read, starting their cut too late or too soon, or a myriad other problems having to do with inexperience or lack of talent, Rodgers' comments about the "details" not being right would strongly contribute to what I have viewed as his being inaccurate.

I think Adams' numbers would show that Rodgers has certainly been accurate to that particular receiver. If we limit the perceived poor throws and inaccuracies to receivers that have been in this system 3 or more years, in other words, to Adams, Allison, Cobb, and Kendricks, the number of poor throws is reduced dramatically. I can think of less than 5 bad throws to Adams, maybe 3 to Cobb, and very few to Kendricks or Allison.

Without seeing film from past years, we can't accurately gauge whether Rodgers has been overlooking checkdown receivers more this year than in the past. What we can do is look at the number of receptions by RBs and TEs, primary checkdown receivers (except Finley who functioned almost like a WR), in past years and compare them to this year. Not surprisingly, this year's closest match, in terms of statistics, was 2015 when Nelson was lost for the season, Adams had a hurt calf, and Cobb had various injuries. Rodgers' completion percentage was his career low, QBR career low, R. Rodgers had 58 catches and Starks 43 catches good for 2nd and 5th on the team. Every other year, RBs and checkdown TEs were far down the list in number of receptions. My conclusion would be that Rodgers doesn't like the checkdown and really doesn't use the checkdown.

Rodgers has been saying that his accuracy is not appreciably worse this year than in years past. He says the "details" are the main problems that the offense has been having. The fact that the young receivers catch very few balls and seem to disappear from the game lends some truth to his statements. My conclusion would be that Rodgers and this particular offense is much more affected by personnel than Brady, Brees, Rivers, or P. Manning and, to give him the benefit of the doubt, his play may not have slipped. But, without contrary evidence, he may not be the GOAT, just an excellent QB given the proper receiving talent.

[call_me_ishmael]

I am just saying put Peyton or Brady in the offense and this team has lost 3 games or less. I think we can all agree the Rodgers is a peer of these two in terms of arm talent and mental talent. The difference in Manning and Brady play within the system. Rodgers doesn't.

For the crap hand the defense has been dealt by an anemic offense, the D has held up remarkably well over the season and is clearly the superior squad right now.

[pbmax]

I am just saying put Peyton or Brady in the offense and this team has lost 3 games or less. I think we can all agree the Rodgers is a peer of these two in terms of arm talent and mental talent. The difference in Manning and Brady play within the system. Rodgers doesn't.

For the crap hand the defense has been dealt by an anemic offense, the D has held up remarkably well over the season and is clearly the superior squad right now.

It's too simple a read. Manning wouldn't join this team unless he could run HIS offense. There is ample evidence around of coaches talking that its actually Mannings offense, no one else.

Brady was a limited passer in their first two Super Bowl wins. He might not be able to run any offense this well except Belichick's.

[The Shadow]

Stale passing game. Packers' receivers are almost never open; Rodgers has to constantly force the ball into tight windows. Overdue for a new fresh offensive approach.

[red]

Stale passing game. Packers' receivers are almost never open; Rodgers has to constantly force the ball into tight windows. Overdue for a new fresh offensive approach.

Except that after the game pb posts videos showing 2 or 3 guys open on each play, they just aren’t the deep guy that a-rod is staring down

[pbmax]

Yeah, at this point 50% of this trouble is willful touchdown to check down.

To a point, I agree with that approach. You've seen with Shanahan's lesser offenses and with the Bears at times with Trubisky, if everything is short, you often don't get to the sticks for a first down. Not every short passing game offense works like the Patriots.

But Rodgers is WAY too resistant to throwing short especially on 3rd down and especially in his own half of the field. They pick up 4 more first downs a game and it completely flips the field position. Helps the D and the O.

[gbgary]

Stale passing game. Packers' receivers are almost never open; Rodgers has to constantly force the ball into tight windows. Overdue for a new fresh offensive approach.

that's not the case. Rodgers looks past the open guys for open guys down field and by then he's under siege and nothing happens.

[Carolina_Packer]

Yeah, at this point 50% of this trouble is willful touchdown to check down.

To a point, I agree with that approach. You've seen with Shanahan's lesser offenses and with the Bears at times with Trubisky, if everything is short, you often don't get to the sticks for a first down. Not every short passing game offense works like the Patriots.

But Rodgers is WAY too resistant to throwing short especially on 3rd down and especially in his own half of the field. They pick up 4 more first downs a game and it completely flips the field position. Helps the D and the O.

There are other examples to choose from throughout the season, but none fresher than last week vs. the Bears when the offense possessed the ball right after the D gets a fumble; I believe the game is tied and the Packers have a great opportunity. Instead of a methodical, grinding, ball possession approach, the Packers offense goes three and out because of the lust for chunk yardage. Rodgers siren song is the long pass play. Rodgers apologists, I'm right with you on his greatness. He's one of the best ever. Part of what makes a player great is adaptation. If all he cares about is winning, is he willing to take whatever approach is dictated by the situation? At that point we know QB banged up (add a groin pull to the knee issue and whatever else will come out after the season is done), game tied, defense down some guys, playing with many inexperienced receivers. All that stuff needs to be processed as adeptly as the ability to read coverages, call protections and check out of a bad play. If Rodgers does self-scout in the off-season, I hope he learns more to take what the defense gives him, especially in situations where the game is on the line and there is an opportunity to take control. Home runs are fun, but so are two out, two-run singles.

[mraynrand]

that's not the case. Rodgers looks past the open guys for open guys down field and by then he's under siege and nothing happens.

exactly. It's lack of discipline, sloppy QBing, or both. Maybe a disciplinarian like Mike McCarthy, who reined in Favre, can get Rodgers to change his ways.

[pbmax]

exactly. It's lack of discipline, sloppy QBing, or both. Maybe a disciplinarian like Mike McCarthy, who reined in Favre, can get Rodgers to change his ways.

Mike McCarthy is dead!

Hire Mike McCarthy!

[gbgary]

exactly. It's lack of discipline, sloppy QBing, or both. Maybe a disciplinarian like Mike McCarthy, who reined in Favre, can get Rodgers to change his ways.

i think Rodgers disciplined McCarthy.

[call_me_ishmael]

Woof.
https://twitter.com/AaronNagler/status/1075111289918230533

Double woof.
https://twitter.com/AaronNagler/status/1075108501045809152

Two really bad overthrows.

[mraynrand]

Woof.
https://twitter.com/AaronNagler/status/1075111289918230533

Double woof.
https://twitter.com/AaronNagler/status/1075108501045809152

Two really bad overthrows.

UGLY

On a related note, check out the picture below. Note that the Packer fans are sitting and the Bears fans are standing. The Packer fans must think they are at quiet, sedate, Lambeau Field.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DuqGrziUYAA1N9I.jpg

[call_me_ishmael]

https://twitter.com/BenFennell_NFL/status/1080526754970853376
https://twitter.com/BenFennell_NFL/status/1080528549797396480

Aaron Rodgers looks like Johnny Manziel. Yuck. He broken. We need a 3 second clock in camp. Blow that play dead if it hit the 3 second mark.

https://twitter.com/BenFennell_NFL/status/1080175171586146304

[Pugger]

UGLY

On a related note, check out the picture below. Note that the Packer fans are sitting and the Bears fans are standing. The Packer fans must think they are at quiet, sedate, Lambeau Field.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DuqGrziUYAA1N9I.jpg

When the Packers are on offense don't we want the fans to be quiet so the players can communicate?

[Pugger]

https://twitter.com/BenFennell_NFL/status/1080526754970853376
https://twitter.com/BenFennell_NFL/status/1080528549797396480

Aaron Rodgers looks like Johnny Manziel. Yuck. He broken. We need a 3 second clock in camp. Blow that play dead if it hit the 3 second mark.

https://twitter.com/BenFennell_NFL/status/1080175171586146304

Unfortunately this year's QB draft class isn't all that great. We are stuck with AR for at least one more season. If we suck even more we have a chance to finally ditch him and get a younger stud in the 2020 draft.

[gbgary]

teams who loved the long ball (https://twitter.com/NFLMatchup/status/1080835839452692480)

i'd say this is probably accurate for the last 3+ years.

holding the ball too long? (https://twitter.com/BenFennell_NFL/status/1080858158195716096)

we know going deep instead of moving the sticks was a problem and holding the ball too long as well.

[texaspackerbacker]

Ingrates and imbecilic detractors of Aaron Rodgers piss me off.

[run pMc]

Ingrates and imbecilic detractors of Aaron Rodgers piss me off.

Oh, I think he's good. The Fennell tweets are a concern though, and suggest he has a lot of room for improvement. I wonder if he was paying more attention to the rush or just not going through his reads this year. Regardless, if he gets his issues fixed, I'm confident he can get back to MVP caliber.

45 of the 53 sacks allowed by #Packers this season were OVER 2.5 seconds

and
they led the NFL in 3rd down sacks (28). Actually have led the NFL in this 3 of the last 4 years

[call_me_ishmael]

Wade Phillips broke Aaron Rodgers. I say this only somewhat in jest.


I always mentioned in comments about how the Packers just never looked the same after the debacle and embarrassment that occurred in 2015 against a Broncos led Denver team.
I finally decided to just look up record wise how different the times were.

From 2012 to the Denver game, the Packers played 54 games, earning a record throughout that time of 37-16-1.

In 2015, we started the season 6-0...

Our 7th game we faced off against Wade Phillips defense that night. It was one of the ugliest games I didn’t see happening.
Since that game, we played 58 games and have a record of 27-30-1.

Just found that interesting and wanted to share.

[gbgary]

Oh, I think he's good. The Fennell tweets are a concern though, and suggest he has a lot of room for improvement. Regardless, if he gets his issues fixed, I'm confident he can get back to MVP caliber.



it's going to take a different mindset by him, and a coach with a stronger personality than his, but it's possible. he doesn't really have to be mvp caliber...just more efficient. there were a lot of wasted plays this season as these stats prove. by doing so it takes pressure off the defense. it would be more fun for the others on the O too. get the ball out, move the chains, eat up the clock, score points, win games. it's a win/win.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Ingrates and imbecilic detractors of Aaron Rodgers piss me off.

Take a chill pill. Lol

[Carolina_Packer]

Ingrates and imbecilic detractors of Aaron Rodgers piss me off.

Tex, this is not a challenge to your statement. It's purely a curiosity question with no sarcasm behind it at all. Do you think Aaron has any flaws in his game, or areas that that he could improve upon? If so, what are those things? If not, I'm guessing you are not saying he's perfect, but that you are willing to overlook any possible negative thing because of all the good things he does?

[Rutnstrut]

Ingrates and imbecilic detractors of Aaron Rodgers piss me off.




So Rodgers is perfect and should just keep playing as he has been of late?

[pbmax]

teams who loved the long ball (https://twitter.com/NFLMatchup/status/1080835839452692480)

i'd say this is probably accurate for the last 3+ years.

holding the ball too long? (https://twitter.com/BenFennell_NFL/status/1080858158195716096)

we know going deep instead of moving the sticks was a problem and holding the ball too long as well.


Going deep alone doesn't explain as much as you think. 1 less attempt per game drops him off that list.

[texaspackerbacker]

Tex, this is not a challenge to your statement. It's purely a curiosity question with no sarcasm behind it at all. Do you think Aaron has any flaws in his game, or areas that that he could improve upon? If so, what are those things? If not, I'm guessing you are not saying he's perfect, but that you are willing to overlook any possible negative thing because of all the good things he does?

Nobody's perfect. Among NFL QBs, though, there's never been anybody closer to it - not Brady and Brees, not anybody named Manning, not even Favre or Starr. You want my idea of negatives about him? Not the usual crap detractors come up with ...... I like the idea that he uses his mobility (a necessity with the Packers O line) and takes whatever number of seconds it takes to find open receivers. I like the fact that he virtually never "puts it up for grabs" unless there's a clear defensive penalty/free play. I even like the way he tends to avoid quick short passes - which to me, are a recipe for turnovers. I also like the fact that he can and does take off on runs and does so with excellent judgment. I even like the fact that he seems to have an ego as big as Texas and changes plays as he sees fit. As for his alleged decrease in accuracy, if there's any, it sure ain't much. The lower completion percentage can be attributed to throwaways due to decreased mobility when his injury was more of a problem and young receivers failing to come back to the QB in scramble situations. The two picks - both on defelctions - all season says to me he is still the most accurate QB in the game.

I'm really thinking hard if there is anything I don't like hahahahaha. Sometimes it seems like Mr. Rodgers gets a little bit stubborn and perfectionistic when it comes to not throwing to a receiver who isn't exactly on the mark where he's supposed to be. It also seems like sometimes - maybe a lot of times, Rodgers de-emphasizes the young guys. We saw that with Janis and maybe a couple of others. He seems to be doing better now with MVS and St. Brown, though - or maybe they are doing better.

[Patler]

Ingrates and imbecilic detractors of Aaron Rodgers piss me off.

How about those detractors who are appreciative of what he accomplished in his first 5 years as a starter and astute enough to recognize that things haven't been the same in the last 3-4 years? You know, those detractors who recognize that players have to evolve as the game itself changes and as they age, as their teammates change and as the strengths and weaknesses of their own team and their opponents change? Do those detractors of Aaron Rodgers piss you off as well?

[texaspackerbacker]

How about those detractors who are appreciative of what he accomplished in his first 5 years as a starter and astute enough to recognize that things haven't been the same in the last 3-4 years? You know, those detractors who recognize that players have to evolve as the game itself changes and as they age, as their teammates change and as the strengths and weaknesses of their own team and their opponents change? Do those detractors of Aaron Rodgers piss you off as well?

Yes

[gbgary]

Going deep alone doesn't explain as much as you think. 1 less attempt per game drops him off that list.

ok but 66% were incomplete, of the 50 qb's that attempted passes this year only 16 had a worse comp %, he had a record amount of throwaways, and most of the sacks resulted from holding the ball to long (not the oline who pff graded as one of the best in pass protection). we all saw guys open and ignored. it all equals inefficiency. you add in the flat-out missed throws and you get what we saw.

[Patler]

Yes

I thought so. In other words, just anyone who speaks negatively of Rodgers pisses you off.

[Bossman641]

“One time I really saw it for the first time, we were in the huddle. I guess McCarthy called in a play, and Aaron was kind of like, ‘Nah,’ ” Lewis said. “He gave a direction and a protection to the line, and went. It was a four-minute offense, he threw a 40-yard bomb for a completion. I’m like, ‘What’s really going on?’ I’ve never seen anything like that before in my life.”

https://www.yahoo.com/amphtml/sports/marcedes-lewis-detailed-tension-aaron-rodgers-mike-mccarthy-green-bay-season-031440680.html

[Patler]

“One time I really saw it for the first time, we were in the huddle. I guess McCarthy called in a play, and Aaron was kind of like, ‘Nah,’ ” Lewis said. “He gave a direction and a protection to the line, and went. It was a four-minute offense, he threw a 40-yard bomb for a completion. I’m like, ‘What’s really going on?’ I’ve never seen anything like that before in my life.”

https://www.yahoo.com/amphtml/sports/marcedes-lewis-detailed-tension-aaron-rodgers-mike-mccarthy-green-bay-season-031440680.html

So, Rodgers' ego is such that he decided to throw this season away in an effort to get rid of his coach?

[Bossman641]

So, Rodgers' ego is such that he decided to throw this season away in an effort to get rid of his coach?

Sorta appears that way doesn't it.

[gbgary]

So, Rodgers' ego is such that he decided to throw this season away in an effort to get rid of his coach?

pretty much. i just heard all this discussed on a wisconsin sports radio station. it just confirms rodgers' petulance. you can keep your head buried or bring it out into the light. what coach is going to want to take THAT on?

[texaspackerbacker]

I thought so. In other words, just anyone who speaks negatively of Rodgers pisses you off.

yes

[texaspackerbacker]

“One time I really saw it for the first time, we were in the huddle. I guess McCarthy called in a play, and Aaron was kind of like, ‘Nah,’ ” Lewis said. “He gave a direction and a protection to the line, and went. It was a four-minute offense, he threw a 40-yard bomb for a completion. I’m like, ‘What’s really going on?’ I’ve never seen anything like that before in my life.”

https://www.yahoo.com/amphtml/sports/marcedes-lewis-detailed-tension-aaron-rodgers-mike-mccarthy-green-bay-season-031440680.html

Ya'all whiners can't have it both ways ....... you're mostly the same people who couldn't stand McCarthy; Now supposedly Rodgers engineered the getting rid of McCarthy, and ya'all are upset about that too hahahahaha. Make up your damn minds.

[Pugger]

“One time I really saw it for the first time, we were in the huddle. I guess McCarthy called in a play, and Aaron was kind of like, ‘Nah,’ ” Lewis said. “He gave a direction and a protection to the line, and went. It was a four-minute offense, he threw a 40-yard bomb for a completion. I’m like, ‘What’s really going on?’ I’ve never seen anything like that before in my life.”

https://www.yahoo.com/amphtml/sports/marcedes-lewis-detailed-tension-aaron-rodgers-mike-mccarthy-green-bay-season-031440680.html

Go to the 6:30 mark of this interview and you will get an entirely different idea of what went on in the game Lewis is talking about. Lewis did not mention McCarthy's name here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SSnIp8Rz2U

[call_me_ishmael]

Aaron Coach Killer Rodgers. That's why I want Harbaugh or Manning as coach, they need somebody that commands a great deal of respect and has done it before. Rodgers seems too big for his britches so they need an even bigger name to whip it out and show him who's cock is bigger.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

McCarthy dug his own grave with the firing of Van Belt, A-Rod’s BFF. Imagine if the Walrus had actually carried out his threats of sending Mooch or Walrus, Jr. (A. Reid) to the firing squad each time Favre fucked up. Favre woulda tanked the 96 season purposefully.

[Rutnstrut]

pretty much. i just heard all this discussed on a wisconsin sports radio station. it just confirms rodgers' petulance. you can keep your head buried or bring it out into the light. what coach is going to want to take THAT on?


Ditka would deflate that ego pretty fast;)

[Pugger]

Aaron Coach Killer Rodgers. That's why I want Harbaugh or Manning as coach, they need somebody that commands a great deal of respect and has done it before. Rodgers seems too big for his britches so they need an even bigger name to whip it out and show him who's cock is bigger.

I can see Harbaugh in your scenario but Manning? :lol:

[call_me_ishmael]

I can see Harbaugh in your scenario but Manning? :lol:

It's never going to happen but I would love it.

[esoxx]

I can see Harbaugh in your scenario but Manning? :lol:

I think what ish is saying here is that with the degree of petulance displayed by Rodgers you're going to need someone with gravitas to come in to be able to get AR to toe the line a bit. Harbaugh has the pedigree and Manning is an all-timer who AR would have no choice but to respect given his accomplishments. Not that I'm backing either candidate but it's looking more and more they're going to have to pick someone with some real backbone or with accomplishments so great they can't be ignored.

[red]

Go to the 6:30 mark of this interview and you will get an entirely different idea of what went on in the game Lewis is talking about. Lewis did not mention McCarthy's name here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SSnIp8Rz2U

so a-rod IS the problem. he's the one calling the slow developing plays that don't work

as some national talking head have mentioned, we may not be a top destination for a new head coach

we have a completely lack of talent, and a QB who is gonna do whatever the hell he wants on the field.

how is a decent coach ever gonna accept that?

we may have to end up with a coach that is just going to rollover to rodgers

[Anti-Polar Bear]

I think what ish is saying here is that with the degree of petulance displayed by Rodgers you're going to need someone with gravitas to come in to be able to get AR to toe the line a bit. Harbaugh has the pedigree and Manning is an all-timer who AR would have no choice but to respect given his accomplishments. Not that I'm backing either candidate but it's looking more and more they're going to have to pick someone with some real backbone or with accomplishments so great they can't be ignored.

J-Mac.

Brady ain't afraid of punching J-Mac and J-Mac certainly has the "backbone" to absorb the hits.

[gbgary]

Go to the 6:30 mark of this interview and you will get an entirely different idea of what went on in the game Lewis is talking about. Lewis did not mention McCarthy's name here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SSnIp8Rz2U

that interview was done during the bye week. he's still trying to find his place with the team at that point.

[denverYooper]

So, Rodgers' ego is such that he decided to throw this season away in an effort to get rid of his coach?


Sorta appears that way doesn't it.

That's a bit much to read into one story from one guy about one play. What game was it? What was the situation? Was it the right call? Rodgers has long had the flexibility to change the play.

Rodgers had 15 pass plays of 40+ yards this year on throws considered deep by pro-football-reference (targets > 15 yards from LOS) (so plays like the 75 yard TD to Cobb count, as that was charted as a short pass with long RAC). They didn't have the luxury of needing their 4 minute offense often.

Chicago - 51 yards, 11:20 left in 4th Q, GB down 10 pts
Washington - 64 yards, 2:24 2nd quarter, down 18 pts
San Fransisco - 60 yards, 10:53 1st quarter, down 7 pts
San Fransisco - 54 yards, 3:35 1st quarter, up 3 pts
Buffalo - 43 yards, 6:48 1st quarter, score tied
Detroit - 54 yards, 0:19 4th quarter, down 11 pts
Seattle - 41 yards, 1st quarter, up 7 pts
Seattle - 54 yards, 1st quarter, up 4 pts
Seattle - 57 yards, 11:23 4th quarter, up 1 pt
New England - 51 yards, 14:14 3rd quarter, down 7 pts
LA Rams - 48 yards, 7:18 1st quarter, tie game
LA Rams - 41 yards, 3th Q, 7:04, down 10 pts
LA Rams - 40 yards, 4th Q, 8:57 down 6 pts

(Philbin)
New York Jets - 49 yards, 2nd quarter, down 14 pts
New York Jets - 43 yards, 4th Q 12:53, down 15 pts

Which of those was the one Lewis was talking about? In no situation above were they protecting a lead late. I can't find the link at the moment, but elsewhere there is a video of Lewis and Martellus Bennett discussing how M3's offense did not use TEs in the receiving game very well.

I will buy that Rodgers and M3 behaved like a couple headed for divorce and it doomed their season. That makes sense. But going so far as to say that Rodgers threw the entire season is because of "ego", to me, a bridge too far.

[gbgary]

no wonder the young WR's, and noobs like Graham and Jones, weren't on the same page as Rodgers. they practice MM's game plan all week then game day comes and Rodgers goes rogue and starts playing street ball. how can he get comfortable with guys when he does that?

[gbgary]

Which of those was the one Lewis was talking about?

Lewis said it was the buffalo game. the same game Rodgers threw MM under the bus about after the game. he said it was the worst offensive game he could remember, or something along those lines.

[Bossman641]

That's a bit much to read into one story from one guy about one play. What game was it? What was the situation? Was it the right call? Rodgers has long had the flexibility to change the play.

All valid points. It sure sounds like the relationship was quite toxic however and must have been very visible to the rest of the team. When you have a veteran like Lewis saying he saw things he's never witnessed before it's a bad sign.

[Joemailman]

I think what ish is saying here is that with the degree of petulance displayed by Rodgers you're going to need someone with gravitas to come in to be able to get AR to toe the line a bit. Harbaugh has the pedigree and Manning is an all-timer who AR would have no choice but to respect given his accomplishments. Not that I'm backing either candidate but it's looking more and more they're going to have to pick someone with some real backbone or with accomplishments so great they can't be ignored.

Dan Campbell. He'll kick Rodgers' ass if he doesn't toe the line.

https://s3media.247sports.com/Uploads/Assets/378/930/8930378.jpg

[texaspackerbacker]

Just what we need (NOT) - some shithead who will fuck with the best thing the team has and does.

[esoxx]

Dan Campbell. He'll kick Rodgers' ass if he doesn't toe the line.

https://s3media.247sports.com/Uploads/Assets/378/930/8930378.jpg

Is that Richard Moll from Night Court?

[gbgary]

Is that Richard Moll from Night Court?

looks a little like bert.

[gbgary]

another tidbit...https://twitter.com/eagleton_mark/status/1081257638933999617?s=19

[Rutnstrut]

Just what we need (NOT) - some shithead who will fuck with the best thing the team has and does.



Is he really the best thing the team has if he keeps playing/acting like this? If he refuses to tow the line for the new coach, I wouldn't mind seeing them trade him.

[red]

Just what we need (NOT) - some shithead who will fuck with the best thing the team has and does.

It’s like you live in an alternate universe inside your geriatric head

[red]

Is he really the best thing the team has if he keeps playing/acting like this? If he refuses to tow the line for the new coach, I wouldn't mind seeing them trade him.


Can’t trade him for a few years, we’re stuck with him for better or worse

[texaspackerbacker]

I say again, ingrates and imbecilic detractors of Aaron Rodgers piss me off.

[Pugger]

That's a bit much to read into one story from one guy about one play. What game was it? What was the situation? Was it the right call? Rodgers has long had the flexibility to change the play.

Rodgers had 15 pass plays of 40+ yards this year on throws considered deep by pro-football-reference (targets > 15 yards from LOS) (so plays like the 75 yard TD to Cobb count, as that was charted as a short pass with long RAC). They didn't have the luxury of needing their 4 minute offense often.

Chicago - 51 yards, 11:20 left in 4th Q, GB down 10 pts
Washington - 64 yards, 2:24 2nd quarter, down 18 pts
San Fransisco - 60 yards, 10:53 1st quarter, down 7 pts
San Fransisco - 54 yards, 3:35 1st quarter, up 3 pts
Buffalo - 43 yards, 6:48 1st quarter, score tied
Detroit - 54 yards, 0:19 4th quarter, down 11 pts
Seattle - 41 yards, 1st quarter, up 7 pts
Seattle - 54 yards, 1st quarter, up 4 pts
Seattle - 57 yards, 11:23 4th quarter, up 1 pt
New England - 51 yards, 14:14 3rd quarter, down 7 pts
LA Rams - 48 yards, 7:18 1st quarter, tie game
LA Rams - 41 yards, 3th Q, 7:04, down 10 pts
LA Rams - 40 yards, 4th Q, 8:57 down 6 pts

(Philbin)
New York Jets - 49 yards, 2nd quarter, down 14 pts
New York Jets - 43 yards, 4th Q 12:53, down 15 pts

Which of those was the one Lewis was talking about? In no situation above were they protecting a lead late. I can't find the link at the moment, but elsewhere there is a video of Lewis and Martellus Bennett discussing how M3's offense did not use TEs in the receiving game very well.

I will buy that Rodgers and M3 behaved like a couple headed for divorce and it doomed their season. That makes sense. But going so far as to say that Rodgers threw the entire season is because of "ego", to me, a bridge too far.

I guessing a lot of people are reading wwwaaayyyy more into this than what really happened. I wasn't in the locker room and am not privy to what really was going on. Until somebody writes a tell-all book most of this is just conjecture. We are all trying to figure out why the season went to hell. I suspect there are several reasons and any that I think is the truth is way off.

[woodbuck27]

We are stuck with Aaron Rodgers as the Franchise QB he certainly should be accepted as being. The TT and MM act went on far too long and extended wronly into this Season. It was easy to predict a downfall for the Green Bay Packers this Season and I've said for a number of Seasons now the weakest LINK was Mike McCarthy. So finally that's over and so we move forward.

Having written that it's disturbing now to be reading accounts of Aaron Rodgers attitude to the play calling of MM during game day (s); and with no disrespect for ARod's possible negative attitude and that; but that shit has to be worked out clearly and internally and never personified on the playing field.

I hope Aaron Rodgers has broad shoulders and he gets beyond the oft mentioned chip on his shoulders to demonstrate he is all we see his potential to being next Season and beyond.

Is penchant for not throwing Picks is confining when he doesn't have enough targets to be totally confident in. That fact has to be addressed and solved beginning next Season.

He needs all the support that the Team Management can afford him as he is our BEST REAL Chance. Is it too much to ask for an outstanding addition to the Team this Off Season on both sides of the ball?

It's also very necessary to keep Aaron Rodgers on his feet as this Guy certainly appears injury prone.

As an assist to that when will the Team endeavour something more positive and reducing adversity due to long term injuries?

I would enjoy this question to be adddressed aggressively.

I'll add this as an assist for Aaron Rodgers and Team Leadership:

I also feel we need a change and Special Teams.

GO PACK GO !

[pbmax]

Think back to the trigger happy Favre in 1999-2000. Had a poor year by his standards and looked very much like his younger self with Sherman Lewis at the helm of the offense. This is after he and Holmgren struggled a bit in the 1998 season with Favre wanting to go deeper more often than Holmgren did. Changed some plays at the LOS and had a lesser year compared to his previous MVP efforts. Holmgren seemed less in command with one foot out of the door.

Rodgers is exactly in this spot and too many of you want to pull the rip cord. He may not be 2011 Rodgers anymore (then again, no one has had the 2011 Packer offense since then either except maybe KC this year) but he is still an All Pro and Pro Bowl QB and most teams would sell their families to get one.

I can understand the cap situation complaint and wanting to trade him. But just remember that other teams understand that too and teams in the front of the draft that would yield Mayfield probably don't want to give up as much as you might think. Unlike the Amari Cooper trade (which yielded a first rounder but was going to be a middle of the round pick), there is a premium on early in the round picks especially when teams are hunting for a franchise signal caller. I don't think the Browns were as eager to trade for Rodgers as the suggested trades on this board assume. So in reality you are looking at a first round draft pick somewhere after #4 where your selections could be Darnold, Jackson, Allen and Rosen. Crapshoot. And that assumes McCarthy can do for them what he did for Favre and Rodgers, which is not a given at this point.

The Bears gave up a gold mine of picks to move up one spot and protect their QB wish list.

Even if they get Mayfield, do you think McCarthy's offense works for him? Hue Jackson's didn't. It took the unplanned promotion of Freddie Kitchens to show that Mayfield may be a franchise player.

So trade away, but like all draft picks and FA, is a 50% crap shoot you win with that player.

I do not think this is 2007 Favre, though its possible (he obviously wanted Nelson back and wasn't all that happy with the young WR). Favre wanted out and didn't like Ted's approach. They had directly butted heads and Favre lost. Rodgers hasn't made much comment about Gute, but I don't sense that is where he head is at.

[pbmax]

On the video:

Rodgers changed the play in the four minute offense. Pretty clear sign of offensive dysfunction given its the second vet mention of this (Saturday). But think about what the offense has been like this year.

There have been three bright spots: quick passing when Rodgers is hurt, the opening 15 play script and the 4th quarter scramble offense when behind.

None of those offenses belong to McCarthy's playbook. He doesn't install them in the offseason and doesn't want to rep what he doesn't think he will call in the game. Rodgers and he had to come to an agreement mid-season to install some different pass plays in the opening script that they would rep in practice and run in the game. This is when you saw slants and quick stuff mid-season plus Aaron Jones. It worked. Rodgers asked for these plays. It had the advantage of being an unscouted look for the offense.

But it was not a built-in part of the offense. It wasn't installed in the offseason nor practiced in camp. This was not the McCarthy offense and there weren't enough of these to call a whole game based on the few plays added in during the week.

4th quarter scramble drill when way behind. This is normally a clear sign of a team in trouble when their offense only works when it goes off script or with an extended offense or scramble drill. It means the game plan didn't work, you fell behind and the team had to improvise to succeed. This is an important point in the history of the McCarthy offense we will return to.

This is not the McCarthy offense. Its not practiced, installed or drilled in camp.

Rodgers being hurt is a failure of 3 things, pass pro, offensive design and QB execution. So that is a failure on all fronts. But the offense that resulted from them not being willing to risk another hit was remarkable the three times we saw it. Problem is that neither Rodgers nor McCarthy seemed to believe in it. Its not the McCarthy offense and its not Rodgers normal style. They need to be scared to run it.

But its not McCarthy's offense. They don't practice it, do drill it or install it in the offseason. The team cannot call this offense for the entire game, much less the season because its not what the plays in the playbook are designed around.

Do you see what I am getting at? The only offense the worked was when it WASN'T McCarthy's offense. Who was calling the alternate offense? Rodgers in two cases. And in the third case, you had to kneecap the QB to scare the two of them to agree to alter the offense. Absent that, neither wanted any part of it.

[red]

I say again, ingrates and imbecilic detractors of Aaron Rodgers piss me off.

nursing homes that allow their patients to get online to spread their nonsense during one of their "episodes" pisses me off

[Pugger]

On the video:

Rodgers changed the play in the four minute offense. Pretty clear sign of offensive dysfunction given its the second vet mention of this (Saturday). But think about what the offense has been like this year.

There have been three bright spots: quick passing when Rodgers is hurt, the opening 15 play script and the 4th quarter scramble offense when behind.

None of those offenses belong to McCarthy's playbook. He doesn't install them in the offseason and doesn't want to rep what he doesn't think he will call in the game. Rodgers and he had to come to an agreement mid-season to install some different pass plays in the opening script that they would rep in practice and run in the game. This is when you saw slants and quick stuff mid-season plus Aaron Jones. It worked. Rodgers asked for these plays. It had the advantage of being an unscouted look for the offense.

But it was not a built-in part of the offense. It wasn't installed in the offseason nor practiced in camp. This was not the McCarthy offense and there weren't enough of these to call a whole game based on the few plays added in during the week.

4th quarter scramble drill when way behind. This is normally a clear sign of a team in trouble when their offense only works when it goes off script or with an extended offense or scramble drill. It means the game plan didn't work, you fell behind and the team had to improvise to succeed. This is an important point in the history of the McCarthy offense we will return to.

This is not the McCarthy offense. Its not practiced, installed or drilled in camp.

Rodgers being hurt is a failure of 3 things, pass pro, offensive design and QB execution. So that is a failure on all fronts. But the offense that resulted from them not being willing to risk another hit was remarkable the three times we saw it. Problem is that neither Rodgers nor McCarthy seemed to believe in it. Its not the McCarthy offense and its not Rodgers normal style. They need to be scared to run it.

But its not McCarthy's offense. They don't practice it, do drill it or install it in the offseason. The team cannot call this offense for the entire game, much less the season because its not what the plays in the playbook are designed around.

Do you see what I am getting at? The only offense the worked was when it WASN'T McCarthy's offense. Who was calling the alternate offense? Rodgers in two cases. And in the third case, you had to kneecap the QB to scare the two of them to agree to alter the offense. Absent that, neither wanted any part of it.

If what you are suggesting is true - than McCarthy's offense wasn't working - then I can see why Rodgers got frustrated. And this is probably why McCarthy is no longer employed by GB. I have a feeling a new HC and offensive staff could be just the elixir to get Rodgers back on track.

[pbmax]

OK, the history of McCarthy's offense since the Super Bowl. Answering the question does it no longer work or is Rodgers simply refusing to run it as designed or called?

2011 was remarkable and the team had a boat load of talent on the offensive side. They could score getting off the bus. The talent on the team was unfair.

But 2011 gave a preview of what would plague the Packer O for the rest of McCarthy's tenure. Pass pro with five lineman. To normally send two guys deep and challenge the rest of the field to find single coverage, McCarthy very much preferred to run 5 receiver routes. If necessary because of blitz numbers, he would keep a RB and even the TE in to block. However, the QB was so good and quick, they didn't even need to block the extra guy. Versus Atlanta in 2010, they left the extra edge guy unblocked and then ran the play anyway and trusted Rodgers to avoid the hit.

Remakable, but a bad design and an injury waiting to happen.

Versus KC that year (back then KC was all defense and no offense) the KC front four beat the snot out of the Packer tackles (injuries played a role) and harassed Rodgers all game. Man coverage wide and sometimes underneath gave the D line time to move Rodgers around. This is also the year that Marshmellow Newhouse played a pass rush so bad he allowed Tamba Hali to spin and roll into the back of Derek Sherrod's leg and break it, ruining what certainly would have been an All Pro career at Tackle. but I digress.

We would see this repeated against the NFC West and the Giants for the next 3 years. Harrass the QB with four, stall the Packer offense. Not every team could do it, Rodgers usually led the League in passer rating versus pressure, but if you could do it with the front four, you had a chance.

McCarthy had a partial answer to this, but it wasn't a true schematic change, he went no huddle or hurry up to change the tempo. He would try to counter D pressure by wearing the front four out.

And after one or two false starts (I think he launched this initiative in 2012 but bailed mid season and then relaunched in 2013 to mixed success. In 2014, with Eddie Lacy, it worked and the offense was very good and Rodgers won an MVP.

But after 2014 is where things get interesting.