Should They Stay Or Should They Go?

[Joemailman]

I think most would agree Packers have some highly paid players whose performance does not match their lofty salaries.

A rundown and thoughts on whether they should be retained:

Aaron Rodgers:

2018 cap hit: 20.9 million
2019 Cap hit: 26.5 million
Cap savings if cut or traded - Cap hit would be about 80 million.

He stays:-)
__________________________________________________ __________________________

Randall Cobb:

2018 cap hit: 12.7 million
2019 free agent

He hasn't been special for a while. Injuries are too common. Although Rodgers may lobby for him to stay, I think it's time to move on.
__________________________________________________ __________________________

Clay Matthews

2018 cap hit: 11.4 million
2019 free agent

Although overpaid, I think he's shown he has something left. I'd favor keeping him, perhaps with an incentive-laden contract.
__________________________________________________ __________________________

Nick Perry

2018 cap hit: 10.8 million
2019 cap hit: 14.7 million
Cap savings if cut or traded: 3.6 million

Tough call. I lean toward cutting him, due to his injury history, and emergence of Fackrell.
__________________________________________________ __________________________

Jimmy Graham

2018 cap hit: 5.9 million
2019 cap hit: 12.6 million
Cap savings if cut or traded: 5.4 million

Toughest call. Graham was overpaid, but he is the team's top TE. I think he should stay unless Packers think his physical decline will be even more pronounced next year.
__________________________________________________ __________________________

Mike Daniels

2018 cap hit: 9.8 million
2019 cap hit: 10.9 million
Cap savings if cut or traded: 8.5 million

Although 2018 wasn't his best year, he's still an integral part of Pettine's defense. 2019 will be a contract year for him. He should stay.
__________________________________________________ __________________________

Bryan Bulaga

2018 cap hit: 7.9 million
2019 cap hit: 8.4 million
Cap savings if cut or traded: 6.8 million

Packers need to draft his replacement, but he's still good enough to justify the salary. 2019 will be a contract year for him.

Stay:

Rodgers
Daniels
Bulaga

Go:

Cobb
Perry

Conditional stay:

Graham
Matthews

[pbmax]

Stay:

Rodgers
Daniels (close call, maybe he is done?)


Go:

Cobb
Matthews (he can still move and close on the ball carrier, but not much else, will want to be paid to get the QB)
Bulaga (SPRIGGS™ is clearly ready)


Conditional stay:

Graham (depends on new offense)
Perry (depends on new deal, but still a force against the run more than Matthews)

[gbgary]

stay...matthews 2-year friendly deal (maybe move inside), daniels, bulaga 2-year friendly deal (if he ends up a back-up, fine), graham...hmmm...stay if the new coach and o coordinator will use him a lot. otherwise they can find someone cheap to ignore.

[Joemailman]

Stay:

Rodgers
Daniels (close call, maybe he is done?)


Go:

Cobb
Matthews (he can still move and close on the ball carrier, but not much else, will want to be paid to get the QB)
Bulaga (SPRIGGS™ is clearly ready)


Conditional stay:

Graham (depends on new offense)
Perry (depends on new deal, but still a force against the run more than Matthews)

If Spriggs is ready, I think Packers should seriously think about moving Bulaga inside to Guard. Packers could use a Guard with Tackle pass blocking skills.

[red]

it is more proof of insanity that we still have bulaga on the roster. YOU CAN NOT COUNT ON HIM TO STAY HEALTHY. he's always fucking hurt. i think he had one season where he stayed injury free (contract year maybe?)

he needed to be replaced 2 or 3 years ago

[Joemailman]

it is more proof of insanity that we still have bulaga on the roster. YOU CAN NOT COUNT ON HIM TO STAY HEALTHY. he's always fucking hurt. i think he had one season where he stayed injury free (contract year maybe?)

he needed to be replaced 2 or 3 years ago

Well, I imagine they thought Spriggs would be that starter by now. Not insanity. Bad picks can cause you to do things you'd rather not do.

[gbgary]

... bulaga on the roster. YOU CAN NOT COUNT ON HIM TO STAY HEALTHY. he's always fucking hurt. i think he had one season where he stayed injury free (contract year maybe?)



true but if he would cheaply stay as a backup for the right side why not?

[Fritz]

Bulaga's going to end up signing with Detroit for 8 mill a year after the Packers cut him. He'll play six games for them.

[RashanGary]

Stay

McCarthy
Rodgers
Daniels
Graham

Go

Perry
Matthews
Cobb

[bobblehead]

So Rodgers is a no brainer.

Daniels earns his keep. He plays and plays well. Also a no brainer in my book.

Bulaga has a year left and is effective when healthy. No reason to cut him. Maybe we hope Spriggs beats him out, but Keep Bulaga around another year. I don't see any real value in cutting him unless you can REALLY use the money in FA.

Perry is my toughest call. He is a powerhouse. He has shown he can get to the QB. He can set an edge. I just don't think you have enough at OLB to part ways with him.

Mathews depends on the market because he is up. I wouldn't mind a Clay for 6.5 a year who can move around, play all 4 LB spots. He of course would have to be on board with that. My feeling is that someone offers him more than that.

Graham. Buh bye. He is old, overpaid and never could block. I had hope that MM could utilize him because MM isn't aware that TEs are supposed to be dual threats. He hasn't. And that leads me to MM...buh bye. sooner is better.

Cobb. Sorry brother, but your best days were yesteryear. Hurt, small, frail.

[Pugger]

it is more proof of insanity that we still have bulaga on the roster. YOU CAN NOT COUNT ON HIM TO STAY HEALTHY. he's always fucking hurt. i think he had one season where he stayed injury free (contract year maybe?)

he needed to be replaced 2 or 3 years ago

We did draft Spriggs to replace him a couple of years ago but Jason isn't ready, yet. He looked pretty good when he replaced Bulaga a couple of weeks ago.

[beveaux1]

Thought I'd revisit this thread. First, we can't get rid of someone if we have no one to replace them unless their play has dropped to JAG level or their cost is prohibitive. For that reason, Rodgers, Bulaga, Daniels, and Graham should stay. Matthews and Perry would be missed, but their play doesn't justify the cost. I just don't think Matthews would re-sign for $5 million and that's where I place his and Perry's worth.

Cobb will have a very hard time coming close to matching what we overpaid for him, but I'm not convinced that the rookies that we have will ever be starting caliber receivers. I'm also not convinced that Cobb is much above JAG level except in GB with Rodgers. I could see him taking a low ball offer to remain. I think we should say goodbye to him, though.

This season has shown me how many holes we have on this team. Safety play is below average, outside pass rush is below average, Guard play has been poor, DL needs some backup talent infusion. WR play outside of Adams has been poor, We need a serviceable backup tackle in the worst way. In fact, other than QB, RB, ILB, and CB, every other position group needs help.

It will be interesting to see what our free agency and draft threads will look like.

[SMBASS]

Go:

McCarthy
Bulaga
CM III
Cobb
Perry

And a cast of 2nd tier players who would go if they weren't cheap right now.

I don't give a damn how much you're being paid if you're never available for the games. Time to cut that bait too.

[Rutnstrut]

Thought I'd revisit this thread. First, we can't get rid of someone if we have no one to replace them unless their play has dropped to JAG level or their cost is prohibitive. For that reason, Rodgers, Bulaga, Daniels, and Graham should stay. Matthews and Perry would be missed, but their play doesn't justify the cost. I just don't think Matthews would re-sign for $5 million and that's where I place his and Perry's worth.

Cobb will have a very hard time coming close to matching what we overpaid for him, but I'm not convinced that the rookies that we have will ever be starting caliber receivers. I'm also not convinced that Cobb is much above JAG level except in GB with Rodgers. I could see him taking a low ball offer to remain. I think we should say goodbye to him, though.

This season has shown me how many holes we have on this team. Safety play is below average, outside pass rush is below average, Guard play has been poor, DL needs some backup talent infusion. WR play outside of Adams has been poor, We need a serviceable backup tackle in the worst way. In fact, other than QB, RB, ILB, and CB, every other position group needs help.

It will be interesting to see what our free agency and draft threads will look like.




Wrong. if you can't count on them to be on the field. Which you can't with Bulaga and Daniels, you get rid of them. Having a cool looking car in the garage does you no good if it breaks down all the time. The bus may not be as flashy, but it's way more reliable.

[beveaux1]

Wrong. if you can't count on them to be on the field. Which you can't with Bulaga and Daniels, you get rid of them. Having a cool looking car in the garage does you no good if it breaks down all the time. The bus may not be as flashy, but it's way more reliable.

Before this year, in his career, Daniels missed 2 games. Bulaga has played in every game this year and next year is his last on his present contract and they have no one to replace him.

They have a lot of holes on this team and I don't think they'll get rid of those two players.

[Bretsky]

COBB and PERRY are good as gone. I think if we cut Perry by March something we don't have to pay out a 3.8MIL roster bonus.

Matthews has to take a sizeable pay cut or he's gone.

The rest should probably stay til we have better plans for their departures

[Joemailman]

Report Graham will be back. http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001014371/article/packers-intend-to-bring-back-te-jimmy-graham He is due a 5 million roster bonus on March 15, so a decision will be made by then.

[texaspackerbacker]

Graham may have been a disappointment, but he wasn't horrible, and he was playing hurt. The question is, will he recover from the bad knee? Or will he still be slowed by it next season too? If the Packers keep him, hopefully that means his knee will be better next season.

[Bretsky]

Not a bad call to bring him back; a good call out be to add one of the two Iowa TE's as a compliment to Graham at pick #30 of round one. Don't be surprised when it happens :)

[Joemailman]

Graham may have been a disappointment, but he wasn't horrible, and he was playing hurt. The question is, will he recover from the bad knee? Or will he still be slowed by it next season too? If the Packers keep him, hopefully that means his knee will be better next season.

The knee is my concern. MM has never been great at utilizing TE's, so I could see Graham having a better year in a new offensive system. As things stand now though, Graham will have the biggest cap hit of any TE in the NFL in 2019. https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/2019/cap-hit/tight-end/ Not sure he's worth that.

[Joemailman]

Not a bad call to bring him back; a good call out be to add one of the two Iowa TE's as a compliment to Graham at pick #30 of round one. Don't be surprised when it happens :)

A lot of mocks have Packers taking Fant at #30. I prefer Hockenson, but he might go earlier because of his all-around game.

[Fritz]

Graham may have been a disappointment, but he wasn't horrible, and he was playing hurt. The question is, will he recover from the bad knee? Or will he still be slowed by it next season too? If the Packers keep him, hopefully that means his knee will be better next season.

For the millions of dollars and large chunk of the salary cap Graham is taking up if you keep him, "he wasn't horrible" doesn't seem like much of an argument for keeping him.

[pbmax]

I don't like this news. He's just not the same.

[QBME]

First, thanks to the Mailman for starting it. Nice to have a pragmatic discussion.

All I have to offer is:

1. Cobb is gone. Not for lack of commitment or belief. Just dollars and sense.

2. Bulaga scares me. Cat gets up and limps all over the field. No more explosiveness. To keep him due to the lack of confidence in Spriggs is not a proactive move.

3. Nick Perry - I truly believe he is buying in. But like Bulaga is one instance away from going down at a moments notice. I think he will be effective in Pettines defense.

4. CM III - he understands his age and effectiveness. He will not be a full time player but gets his part time roll. When playing this year he was a presence. And if anybody thinks Holy Frackeral is a full time replacement....please.

5. Mike Daniels needs to come back. He still has the desire, devotion, physical aptitude and team first attitude to make Kenny Clark a star.

6. Jimmy Graham - doesn't have a Ring. LaFleur may have the answer. He didn't get physically beat up this past season. Maybe the new offensive scheme will suit him and get what we all thought he would bring this past season.

As Dennis Miller says, it's just my opinion, I may be wrong.

[texaspackerbacker]

For the millions of dollars and large chunk of the salary cap Graham is taking up if you keep him, "he wasn't horrible" doesn't seem like much of an argument for keeping him.

I'm lukewarm about keeping him, depending on whether or not the knee is greatly improved over last season. I'm just saying, if they decide to shell out the $5 million in March, it must mean they figure there's a good chance the knee will be better and Graham will be close to worth the money.

I hope they do not use the late 1st round pick for a TE - not before the 4th round would be my hope.

[run pMc]

I'm lukewarm about keeping him, depending on whether or not the knee is greatly improved over last season. I'm just saying, if they decide to shell out the $5 million in March, it must mean they figure there's a good chance the knee will be better and Graham will be close to worth the money.

I hope they do not use the late 1st round pick for a TE - not before the 4th round would be my hope.

Agree with this, although I'd be ok taking a a TE sooner if they were BPA. I'd rather they more creatively scheme players open, and adjust their scheme to the strengths of the roster and players. If that's not a TE, fine, use the RBs and WRs.

[run pMc]

For perspective on TE's and Jimmy Graham:
55 Rec (9th among TE's)
636 Yds (9th)
11.6 YPR (46th)
39.8 y/G (16th)
54 Lng (8th - 3way tie)
2 TD (31st - T)
58.2% 1st Dwns (39th)

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&statisticPositionCategory=TIGHT_END&season=2018&seasonType=REG&experience=&tabSeq=1&qualified=true&Submit=Go

Where does that put him? In the top half of TE's? What kind of salary should he get? Does playing through the injuries (knee, thumb) add or subtract to this?

Reconciling the numbers with what I saw, I'm inclined to think he's a mid-tier starter that another coach could get ok production out of him, but his days as a Pro Bowl playmaker are long gone. He could still be used to move the chains and in the red zone. I do think they could replace that production by using their RB's and cheaper TE's (along with our giant WR's in the RZ) differently in the passing game, i.e., scheme changes. Meh, if Gute/MLF wants to give him another shot with better scheme I could warm up to it.

Maybe.

[call_me_ishmael]

How do you keep that guy around after the lack of effort he showed. Forget production, he was hurt, but the lack of hustle and effort is what is particularly damning.

[Joemailman]

How do you keep that guy around after the lack of effort he showed. Forget production, he was hurt, but the lack of hustle and effort is what is particularly damning.

I didn't see a lack of effort. He had a bad knee, and late in the year was playing with a broken thumb. I don't think he's worth what they'd have to pay him this year, but only because of physical limitations.

[pbmax]

If he was just collecting a paycheck, he could have sat a game or two with that broken thumb.

[Patler]

How do you keep that guy around after the lack of effort he showed. Forget production, he was hurt, but the lack of hustle and effort is what is particularly damning.

Really? When? Not suggesting you are wrong, it's just that I can't recall even one instance of thinking that when I watched the games.

Can you refresh my recollection, maybe?

[call_me_ishmael]

I don't have any links handy but many of the Packers bloggers would show highlights just about every week of him lolly gagging on multiple plays. Perhaps this sort of effort is more common than one would think and if someone focused in on them on tape, they'd find similar outcomes, I can't speak to that, but the videos are damning and make it look like he was phoning it in big time.

Here's one I found in a 30 second google search.

https://twitter.com/The_Green_Gold/status/1080190572567117826
https://twitter.com/SconnieSports/status/1049852763243450368

They're all over Twitter :)

[Joemailman]

I don't have any links handy but many of the Packers bloggers would show highlights just about every week of him lolly gagging on multiple plays. Perhaps this sort of effort is more common than one would think and if someone focused in on them on tape, they'd find similar outcomes, I can't speak to that, but the videos are damning and make it look like he was phoning it in big time.

Here's one I found in a 30 second google search.

https://twitter.com/The_Green_Gold/status/1080190572567117826
https://twitter.com/SconnieSports/status/1049852763243450368

They're all over Twitter :)

A guy who is phoning it in doesn't play with a broken thumb in cold weather after his team is out of playoff contention. I guess different people can see different things. I see a guy who can't jump and has difficulty changing directions because he has a bad knee.

[Bretsky]

A lot of mocks have Packers taking Fant at #30. I prefer Hockenson, but he might go earlier because of his all-around game.


Completely agree with you

I had Hockenson going to GB at the end of th e1st before somebody told me he probably wasn't even coming out.

Do you know the speed comparison between the two Iowa TE"s ? Hocker seems to be a stellar blocker as well

[pbmax]

I don't have any links handy but many of the Packers bloggers would show highlights just about every week of him lolly gagging on multiple plays. Perhaps this sort of effort is more common than one would think and if someone focused in on them on tape, they'd find similar outcomes, I can't speak to that, but the videos are damning and make it look like he was phoning it in big time.

Here's one I found in a 30 second google search.

https://twitter.com/The_Green_Gold/status/1080190572567117826
https://twitter.com/SconnieSports/status/1049852763243450368

They're all over Twitter :)

He's not a good blocker. That's not lack of effort, that is always how he has blocked.

The question you want to ask is: why did McCarthy use him to block?

As for the pass catching, he has not bend or snap left in his legs, so he can't leap for passes anymore. Best case is it either heals (seems unlikely) or they learn to throw him passes that he basically rebounds for catches (what Rand was arguing for in-season).

[Joemailman]

Completely agree with you

I had Hockenson going to GB at the end of th e1st before somebody told me he probably wasn't even coming out.

Do you know the speed comparison between the two Iowa TE"s ? Hocker seems to be a stellar blocker as well

Don't have a speed comparison since neither player (Fant or Hocksenon) was eligible for the Senior Bowl. General feeling is that Fant is a better downfield threat while Hockenson is a better all-around Tight End. However, I've been reading that Fant improved his blocking somewhat in 2018. I watched a tape of Fant vs. Penn State this past year. While Fant won't blow anybody away, he seemed to get pretty good position on seal blocks and downfield blocks. So while Hockenson is definitely the better blocker, Fant gives an effort and is not useless in that area. I guess it comes down to whether you want a Jimmy Graham-type (Fant) or a Jason Witten-type (Hockenson.)