More Banjo: Week 12 @ Minnesota

[pbmax]

Terrible. Just terrible.

Short passing game was only highlight of second half after losing Bach terrified McCarthy and Rodgers.

Fackrell didn't get a sack so the Packers were sunk.

[pbmax]

Injuries:

Bach, Brice (came back in, went back out), Taylor, Bell (came back in)

[Bossman641]

More injuries... Davis and ESB. Think Tony brown as well.

[mraynrand]

What happened to Exxon Valdez?

[pbmax]

More injuries... Davis and ESB. Think Tony brown as well.

Yep. ESB with elbow and came back in.

D Moore came in for him and had to leave (unknown)

Davis tweaked that hammy.

[pbmax]

What happened to Exxon Valdez?

No idea.

[mraynrand]

When I saw that Stubby was annoyed at half that they didn't get more big plays in the first half, I knew they were finished. There's a disconnect with that guy. Who said it in the gamely thread about NO and Bress throwing to a bunch of nobodies? With the Vking pass rush the Pack should have been looking to spread the ball all over the place and use some screens and draws against tendency - something different than looking for the home run all the time. Inability - no - UNWILLINGNESS to adapt will be Stubby's epitaph in GB.

[beveaux1]

Unbelievable how many young, hurt players we have. The 30 year olds on this team are playing. Seems like everybody else goes out and we don’t see them for 3 or 4 games, then they come back, play a couple of plays, and go on IR.

[beveaux1]

Scantling must have hit the wall. He’s been invisible for a couple of weeks.

[mraynrand]

Unbelievable how many young, hurt players we have.

This is the Packers we're talking about here. You know this, right?

[Bossman641]

2/10 on third down.....

[beveaux1]

This is the Packers we're talking about here. You know this, right?

Lol

[call_me_ishmael]

Excited to see the pressers after the game. ARod was unfathomably bad, and what can MM say other than to stand up there and take it on the chin? He isn't going to throw a player under the bus publicly since he wants to coach next year in Cleveland (conjecture).

[pbmax]

When I saw that Stubby was annoyed at half that they didn't get more big plays in the first half, I knew they were finished. There's a disconnect with that guy. Who said it in the gamely thread about NO and Bress throwing to a bunch of nobodies? With the Vking pass rush the Pack should have been looking to spread the ball all over the place and use some screens and draws against tendency - something different than looking for the home run all the time. Inability - no - UNWILLINGNESS to adapt will be Stubby's epitaph in GB.

He only does it when he is fearful for Rodgers life.

You know, bomb threats, active shooters, Spriggs playing Left Tackle.

[pbmax]

They hit play #21 and it was lights out on the offense.

His base offense is non-functional and he doesn't know it yet.

It didn't change until their last drive when all of a sudden it was important to get the ball out fast.

[pbmax]

Will Blackmon @WillBlackmon
When I was on the packers in 2008 We lost 4 straight road games. Every time we lost Coach McCarthy made sure each hotel got worse.

He said “If you want to stay in a nice hotel, WIN A DAMN GAME”
One hotel in Jax I swear was on First 48. ��

cc: @89JonesNTAF @CharlesWoodson

[pbmax]

Brian Burke @bburkeESPN
Friendly reminder that GB punted on 4 yds to go at the +41 with 3 min left in the 1st half. 31 yd punt.

Brian Burke @bburkeESPN
Foresight can be pretty good too, Max. My model said it was a -2.5% WP error... before the play.

PFTCommenter @PFTCommenter
the analystics say you go for it there but they also said Mike Mccarthy should of been fired 3 years ago so u never realy know when it comes to math

[pbmax]

Anyone think they should have kicked away?

Aaron Schatz @FO_ASchatz
There's one other interesting strategic decision in this game. With one timeout + TMW, why did Packers choose to onside kick instead of kicking away? Most readers responding to my tweet about fourth-and-1 thought the Packers kicked a FG specifically to avoid an onside kick.

Patrick Daugherty @RotoPat
The Packers are the Bengals + Aaron Rodgers

[pbmax]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=12&v=gLo-ylNPXyE

[pbmax]

Worst GIF ever.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ds5vR6GU0AE800b.jpg

[pbmax]

John E. C @johnnyc1952
Scene: Craig Counsell, Budenholzer, and McCarthy having dinner

CC: "I relied on the strength of my pen and revolutionized how pitchers are used."

Bud: "Nice! I realized long 2s are dumb and points in the paint and 3s are the way to go. How bout you Mike?"

MM: "I like eggs."

[pbmax]

Bach is definitely a knee injury.

Brice with ankle and then concussion eval. Did he come back in after that hit?

Lane Taylor with a Quad-rophenia injury.

[call_me_ishmael]

PB are you on the Fire MM bandwagon?

[mraynrand]

Anyone think they should have kicked away?

If you absolutely HAVE to get a 3-and-out, you NEVER kick away. The onside kick gives you a second chance to get the ball back. If you can allow a first down, then it depends on the score and whether a first down and a FG can kill you.

[pbmax]

If you absolutely HAVE to get a 3-and-out, you NEVER kick away. The onside kick gives you a second chance to get the ball back. If you can allow a first down, then it depends on the score and whether a first down and a FG can kill you.

But odds of a 3 and out, while paltry, look positively radiant compared with the odds of recovering an expected onside kick.

[pbmax]

PB are you on the Fire MM bandwagon?

Yep. Its not all him, but he isn't helping at all. He has needed to adjust his offense since 2015 and hasn't done it.

A new offense wil help reset Rodgers.

But if you blame Rodgers first, then the following are also sufficient reasons

1. Way too eager to keep mediocre coaches around
2. Terrible game and clock management
3. Terrible at adjusting on defense to allow young players to succeed
4. God awful special teams despite A LOT of attention to the talent
5. Refusal to update his offense
6. Game plan past the first 15 plays is a catastrophe
7. I think the red zone and 3rd down D are symptomatic of the rest of the offensive disfunction

That said, all these should be fixable. He is a good leader of men. He keeps the team focused. His winning, despite his shortcomings, is impressive.

But the team cannot go forward from here with him at a standstill.

But be forewarned, the odds of getting a better coach on the first try are about 30%.

I might prefer insisting he update the O, hire a game manager to tell him when to go on 4th down, when to challenge, when to call TO and hire a ST coach who will tell the HC when they will practice ST and how they will practice special teams. However, the odds are 0 the he accepts any of that.

[red]

Bach is definitely a knee injury.

.

2 knee injuries

they said that he was having both knees worked on during the game before he took himself out

[mraynrand]

But odds of a 3 and out, while paltry, look positively radiant compared with the odds of recovering an expected onside kick.

Of course, but the odds of getting the ball back are higher with an onside kick attempt AND a chance at a three and out.

[red]

But odds of a 3 and out, while paltry, look positively radiant compared with the odds of recovering an expected onside kick.

once we finally got the ball back, down 2 scores are chances of winning were almost nil

[mraynrand]

Yep. Its not all him, but he isn't helping at all. He has needed to adjust his offense since 2015 and hasn't done it.

A new offense wil help reset Rodgers.


A speedy receiver like Davis or Scantron running L-R or R-L might be open or cause some issues for Viking coverages. But I don't think anything like that was tried. But those 40 yard lobs on 3rd and 7 looked great, didn't they?

[mraynrand]

once we finally got the ball back, down 2 scores are chances of winning were almost nil

this is all arguing around the edges anyway. The offense basically got shut out in the second half. Why is that?

[pbmax]

Rodgers in press conference that the Davante Adams non backside cutoff block on Harrison was actually ESB's spot until his injury. Adams had not practiced that block.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

But odds of a 3 and out, while paltry, look positively radiant compared with the odds of recovering an expected onside kick.

Zimmer wasn’t gonna put his kicker back on the field again, at least not in this game. Had the D gotten a “3 and out”, Queens woulda punted or “gone for the kill.”

Going for the onside was the best decision Dumb Mike made all night.

[pbmax]

Of course, but the odds of getting the ball back are higher with an onside kick attempt AND a chance at a three and out.


How much time was left? 2 minutes and ?? seconds?

[pbmax]

A speedy receiver like Davis or Scantron running L-R or R-L might be open or cause some issues for Viking coverages. But I don't think anything like that was tried. But those 40 yard lobs on 3rd and 7 looked great, didn't they?

They have doen this, with Scantron and Graham. but its never looked great. Its not a big part of the offense, I don't think they practice them a ton.

[red]

lol

we have the same record as the browns WITH a-rod

some of us late last year were saying that we were the browns without a-rod. that might have been generous

[mraynrand]

Rodgers in press conference that the Davante Adams non backside cutoff block on Harrison was actually ESB's spot until his injury. Adams had not practiced that block.

Then run something else. Like a QB sneak. Brady converts 'em all the time.

[mraynrand]

lol

we have the same record as the browns WITH a-rod

some of us late last year were saying that we were the browns without a-rod. that might have been generous

Browns are loaded with talent. Think of when Hairball walked into SF. They have two #1 overall picks - one on offense and one on defense.

[pbmax]

Zimmer wasn’t gonna put his kicker back on the field again, at least not in this game. Had the D gotten a “3 and out”, Queens woulda punted or “gone for the kill.”

Going for the onside was the best decision Dumb Mike made all night.

If the Vikings get to FG range, the game is over as that would require a first down at least.

The question basically is does field position matter here? Could they have surrendered a first down and then stopped them?

I don't think so, think Rand is right.

[pbmax]

Then run something else. Like a QB sneak. Brady converts 'em all the time.

Its weird that injuries caused him not to call for a 2 pt conversion in Arizona, but he didn't change the call here. Probably because its a run and not a pass.

Which might be a comment on his level of involvement in the run game prep.

[call_me_ishmael]

Yep. Its not all him, but he isn't helping at all. He has needed to adjust his offense since 2015 and hasn't done it.

A new offense wil help reset Rodgers.

But if you blame Rodgers first, then the following are also sufficient reasons

1. Way too eager to keep mediocre coaches around
2. Terrible game and clock management
3. Terrible at adjusting on defense to allow young players to succeed
4. God awful special teams despite A LOT of attention to the talent
5. Refusal to update his offense
6. Game plan past the first 15 plays is a catastrophe
7. I think the red zone and 3rd down D are symptomatic of the rest of the offensive disfunction

That said, all these should be fixable. He is a good leader of men. He keeps the team focused. His winning, despite his shortcomings, is impressive.

But the team cannot go forward from here with him at a standstill.

But be forewarned, the odds of getting a better coach on the first try are about 30%.

I might prefer insisting he update the O, hire a game manager to tell him when to go on 4th down, when to challenge, when to call TO and hire a ST coach who will tell the HC when they will practice ST and how they will practice special teams. However, the odds are 0 the he accepts any of that.

I agree with much of this but I think you're (and many others here too) being overly hard on him. He is a good coach. I am in favor of him moving on as well. I'm less concerned personally about a better coach and more so a decent coach that's different. It's just time to try something new.

[Pugger]

Yep. Its not all him, but he isn't helping at all. He has needed to adjust his offense since 2015 and hasn't done it.

A new offense wil help reset Rodgers.

But if you blame Rodgers first, then the following are also sufficient reasons

1. Way too eager to keep mediocre coaches around
2. Terrible game and clock management
3. Terrible at adjusting on defense to allow young players to succeed
4. God awful special teams despite A LOT of attention to the talent
5. Refusal to update his offense
6. Game plan past the first 15 plays is a catastrophe
7. I think the red zone and 3rd down D are symptomatic of the rest of the offensive disfunction

That said, all these should be fixable. He is a good leader of men. He keeps the team focused. His winning, despite his shortcomings, is impressive.

But the team cannot go forward from here with him at a standstill.

But be forewarned, the odds of getting a better coach on the first try are about 30%.

I might prefer insisting he update the O, hire a game manager to tell him when to go on 4th down, when to challenge, when to call TO and hire a ST coach who will tell the HC when they will practice ST and how they will practice special teams. However, the odds are 0 the he accepts any of that.

I don't think it is a coincidence that the offense goes to hell after the first scripted plays. It could be the young WRs still have no clue what they are doing. And if they don't THAT is damning towards this offensive coaching staff also.

We might not get a better coach on the first try but if we stay the course our odds of improving are less that 30% IMO so what do we really have to lose??

[Pugger]

Browns are loaded with talent. Think of when Hairball walked into SF. They have two #1 overall picks - one on offense and one on defense.

They ought to after sucking for years.

[bobblehead]

But be forewarned, the odds of getting a better coach on the first try are about 30%.
.

Yep...Eagles went from Reid to Chip Kelly before fixing it.

[bobblehead]

lol

we have the same record as the browns WITH a-rod

some of us late last year were saying that we were the browns without a-rod. that might have been generous

Last year the browns didn't have Ward, Mayfield or Landry. I'd say they improved...or Randall. They did have kizer though.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

If the Vikings get to FG range, the game is over as that would require a first down at least.

The question basically is does field position matter here? Could they have surrendered a first down and then stopped them?

I don't think so, think Rand is right.

I’m basically agreeing with Rand. Onside gives opponent short field position- possibly fg range. Zimmerman wasn’t gonna bet on his kicker to ice the game. Therefore onside + d is better than kickoff + d.

[Fritz]

I’m basically agreeing with Rand. Onside gives opponent short field position- possibly fg range. Zimmerman wasn’t gonna bet on his kicker to ice the game. Therefore onside + d is better than kickoff + d.

This is all irrelevant. In the big picture, this is a team with a game defense that lacks a big play pass rusher and has an underperforming offense, saddled with a mistake-prone special teams.

When NO went 7-9 two years in a row, I wonder how Brees played. Cuz I am most worried about Rodgers. He's missing lots of throws and making some poor decisions - and now he's starting to remind me of late-era Peyton Manning or Brett Favre, pointing fingers, albeit subtly, or becoming defensive, instead of leading the team.

How can this offense look so good for stretches in first halves, and then look like 70's Packers the rest of the game?

[mraynrand]

Stubby should script the first 65 plays

[pbmax]

I don't think it is a coincidence that the offense goes to hell after the first scripted plays. It could be the young WRs still have no clue what they are doing. And if they don't THAT is damning towards this offensive coaching staff also.

We might not get a better coach on the first try but if we stay the course our odds of improving are less that 30% IMO so what do we really have to lose??

I think since 2015 Rodgers has been rescuing that part of the offense, covering for shortcomings in both personnel and plan. And he falls into that trap too often.

[pbmax]

Stubby should script the first 65 plays

That is the part that kills me.

He's thinking: we use these great plays, jump out to a lead, then let the mediocre defense salvage the game while we fool around on offense for a half.

[pbmax]

I agree with much of this but I think you're (and many others here too) being overly hard on him. He is a good coach. I am in favor of him moving on as well. I'm less concerned personally about a better coach and more so a decent coach that's different. It's just time to try something new.

I think he is a good coach. But that is damning with faint praise a bit.

Given overwhelming talent on O, he can set team records, send players to the Pro Bowl and be a Top 5 offense. But without that talent, what has his offense been? Its been just above average before the last two years and one of those years featured Rodgers.

[pbmax]

This is all irrelevant. In the big picture, this is a team with a game defense that lacks a big play pass rusher and has an underperforming offense, saddled with a mistake-prone special teams.

When NO went 7-9 two years in a row, I wonder how Brees played. Cuz I am most worried about Rodgers. He's missing lots of throws and making some poor decisions - and now he's starting to remind me of late-era Peyton Manning or Brett Favre, pointing fingers, albeit subtly, or becoming defensive, instead of leading the team.

How can this offense look so good for stretches in first halves, and then look like 70's Packers the rest of the game?

Brees threw a lot of picks.

[red]

But be forewarned, the odds of getting a better coach on the first try are about 30%.



based on what?

it should be about 100% that you could get a better coach if your current coach is hue jackson or marty morninweg

and it should be close to zero if you're replacing hoody

i say fat ass is closer to jackson then coach B, so it should be that hard to find a coach the players respect AND can run a modern offense, AND can think on his feet and adjust

i would say that our chances of finding a better HC is higher then 75%

[mraynrand]

Brees threw a lot of picks.

I do't even think their offense changed all that much - Brees just kept throwing the same passes to guys who were blanketed. You do need some talent at receiver to win individual battles and get open, either with speed and/or moves/route running.

[pbmax]

based on what?

it should be about 100% that you could get a better coach if your current coach is hue jackson or marty morninweg

and it should be close to zero if you're replacing hoody

i say fat ass is closer to jackson then coach B, so it should be that hard to find a coach the players respect AND can run a modern offense, AND can think on his feet and adjust

i would say that our chances of finding a better HC is higher then 75%

Just take a look at the records of these guys. Jackson or Morninweg can't touch him.

[Rutnstrut]

I think he is a good coach. But that is damning with faint praise a bit.

Given overwhelming talent on O, he can set team records, send players to the Pro Bowl and be a Top 5 offense. But without that talent, what has his offense been? Its been just above average before the last two years and one of those years featured Rodgers.





I basically said the same about stubby years ago. I said when everything goes his way, he is a good coach. But when met with a little adversity, he shows his true colors. Practically every member on this forum told me how wrong I was. It's been the right call about him all along.

[MadScientist]

I basically said the same about stubby years ago. I said when everything goes his way, he is a good coach. But when met with a little adversity, he shows his true colors. Practically every member on this forum told me how wrong I was. It's been the right call about him all along.

He's responded well to adversity in previous seasons, but this year he looks like a dead man walking. Time to move on.

[pbmax]

I basically said the same about stubby years ago. I said when everything goes his way, he is a good coach. But when met with a little adversity, he shows his true colors. Practically every member on this forum told me how wrong I was. It's been the right call about him all along.

He's better than that. Its not just when everything is going his way. He's beat back a lot of adversary. More than most.

But his offense doesn't make average talent much better. And his base offense isn't working with his QB and they have not harmonized the two since 2014.

[Rutnstrut]

He's better than that. Its not just when everything is going his way. He's beat back a lot of adversary. More than most.

But his offense doesn't make average talent much better. And his base offense isn't working with his QB and they have not harmonized the two since 2014.



I disagree. Without Rodgers playing god like football, stubby is a mediocre at best coach.

[mraynrand]

I disagree. Without Rodgers playing god like football, stubby is a mediocre at best coach.

like when he revived Favre's career in 2007?

[pbmax]

I disagree. Without Rodgers playing god like football, stubby is a mediocre at best coach.

Rodgers wasn't a god for all of the 2010 playoffs. He has carried the team into this slow decline period, but its not been all him.

[Fritz]

I don't think McCarthy is terrible, but I think there is something to the "staleness" argument - he's just been here so long that Rodgers seems to have tuned him out, and his attempts to revamp the offense or defense have to do with re-hiring old coaches like Philbin or (finally) firing a defensive coordinator who'd himself gone stale.

I think MM could do very well in a new situation with a young QB or an older QB who thinks he can be coached up.

[pbmax]

Rodgers wasn't a god for all of the 2010 playoffs. He has carried the team into this slow decline period, but its not been all him.

Holy cow was this poor phrased.

Rodgers was not God-like in the 2010 playoffs except versus Atlanta.

But he did carry the offense in the past Super Bowl era.

McCarthy developed him and got him to the Super Bowl. He deserves a lot of the credit. But he deserves a fair share of the shortcomings that were evident later.

You can't go to the playoffs 8 years in a row and have a decided talent advantage at the end.

[bobblehead]

Holy cow was this poor phrased.

Rodgers was not God-like in the 2010 playoffs except versus Atlanta.

But he did carry the offense in the past Super Bowl era.

McCarthy developed him and got him to the Super Bowl. He deserves a lot of the credit. But he deserves a fair share of the shortcomings that were evident later.

You can't go to the playoffs 8 years in a row and have a decided talent advantage at the end.

I agree about the 8 years in the playoffs hurting draft position, but I think that is over stated at times. There have been many unforced errors. Not drafting Watt. Drafting CB for need with randall rollins. Not resigning hayward or Hyde. Not recognizing best position of hyde/randall. Not utilizing the unique skill set of Monty. Not ever using a TE correctly.

If we had done 2 things properly above how much different might this team look? And its not like "wow, no one could have predicted hayward and hyde had talent. Wow, no one though Watt would be a good pro. Wow, using a former WR turned RB primarily to pass block is epically stupid.

[Smidgeon]

I agree about the 8 years in the playoffs hurting draft position, but I think that is over stated at times. There have been many unforced errors. Not drafting Watt. Drafting CB for need with randall rollins. Not resigning hayward or Hyde. Not recognizing best position of hyde/randall. Not utilizing the unique skill set of Monty. Not ever using a TE correctly.

If we had done 2 things properly above how much different might this team look? And its not like "wow, no one could have predicted hayward and hyde had talent. Wow, no one though Watt would be a good pro. Wow, not using a former WR turned RB as a route runner out of the backfield is epically stupid.

FIFY

[Joemailman]

FIFY

Yep. I was really excited about the possibilities of having Monty lining up in the backfield. Force teams to play dime and run the ball, or use him as a receiver if teams play base defense. Turned out to be a dud.

[pbmax]

Aaron Nagler @AaronNagler
McCarthy rules out Trevor Davis for the Cardinals game.

[denverYooper]

Packer Leg strikes again!

[pbmax]

Yep. I was really excited about the possibilities of having Monty lining up in the backfield. Force teams to play dime and run the ball, or use him as a receiver if teams play base defense. Turned out to be a dud.

Its ironic that the pass happy coach sticks a RB back there on passing downs to block and then to run and then, maybe, if nothing else is going, catch a pass.

[Bossman641]

Are King and Cobb ever going to play again?

[pbmax]

Are King and Cobb ever going to play again?

Yes and not for the Packers.

[Pugger]

Yes and not for the Packers.

Cobb might be gone but I doubt they'll give up on King right now.

[pbmax]

Cobb might be gone but I doubt they'll give up on King right now.

Should have put respectively, as in, yes for King and some other team for Cobb.

[texaspackerbacker]

There's still reason to hope King will have a bright future with the Packers. As for Cobb, the Packers are better off without him. If he is in the game, somebody better is sitting on the bench.