Rodgers versus McCarthy: Who Ya Got?

[pbmax]

Not everyone agrees that McCarthy is the one who should go.

Its starting:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ds7sE5UXoAAzA-P.jpg:large

[pbmax]

See if you can spot the difference:

Michael Cohen @Michael_Cohen13
Aaron Rodgers by half against the #Vikings:

First half — 8/13 for 94 yards and 1 TD (plus 1 sack)
Second half — 9/15 for 104 yards and 0 TD (plus 3 sacks)


Aaron Nagler @AaronNagler
Good question from @Michael_Cohen13 about Rodgers poor play in big spots, and as always, McCarthy refuses to even hint at the poor play of his quarterback down the stretch.

[pbmax]

A good breakdown of all the breakdowns last night: https://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2018/11/26/silverstein-packers-offense-starts-hot-but-fizzles-down-stretch/2096274002/

It hints at the disconnect: Rodgers, team and fans want to scheme a winning strategy. McCarthy knows there aren't enough practices to install 65 new wrinkles in a week (even 10 days). But the regular offense fails to deliver with such regularity that it might be madness to trust it.

[pbmax]

Poor game management:


Before he did, though, the Packers had to use a timeout after what McCarthy thought had been a premature start to the play-clock after running back Aaron Jones was stopped short on third-and-2. McCarthy, red-faced and clearly irate, argued with referee Bill Vinovich before and during the timeout, then watched as Jones was stopped for no gain and the Vikings took over.

https://madison.com/wsj/sports/football/professional/packers-notebook-for-second-time-in-days-a-fourth-down/article_3cb79658-1219-5327-8cc4-363e69efc450.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=user-share

When you are unprepared, you need the TO to decide to go for it on 4th down and to pick a play. When you are an emotional wreck, you spend that time arguing fruitlessly with the Refs.

[Teamcheez1]

I thought the announcers said that even with the early start to the clock, the Packers had at least 27 seconds to get the play called. Per above, it may be time for MM to go, but Rodgers has been just as responsible for the poor play of the offense. The margin of error is less with new receivers and some injuries along the line, but Rodgers play has been lacking for most of the season. His decision-making has not been good. I wonder if a new coach can get Rodgers to play according to the scheme and stop with the sandlot attitude?

[pbmax]

I thought the announcers said that even with the early start to the clock, the Packers had at least 27 seconds to get the play called. Per above, it may be time for MM to go, but Rodgers has been just as responsible for the poor play of the offense. The margin of error is less with new receivers and some injuries along the line, but Rodgers play has been lacking for most of the season. His decision-making has not been good. I wonder if a new coach can get Rodgers to play according to the scheme and stop with the sandlot attitude?

That is what the ref consultant said. If they reset the play clock after a measurement say, the Packers only get 25 seconds after the clock stoppage.

[Carolina_Packer]

No room for a gray option, huh? :-) I think both have culpability for this situation. I don't want Rodgers to be Capt. Check Down, but there are times when he could do the D a solid and keep the chains moving instead of going for the big play. Is there anyone here who regularly watches the all 22 view of these games that can see the whole field to see how often Rodgers is missing open receivers?

I also think that MM dials back on the versatility of Aaron Jones, especially in the second half, even when it's only a one score game. How similar have the last two games looked in that regard?

No matter who is to blame, they share primary responsibility for the outcome on offense. The franchise QB is not going to be released just after being signed to his latest deal. If anyone is going to take the fall, it's MM. He is not completely to blame, but he is ultimately responsible for the outcome.

[pbmax]

No room for a gray option, huh? :-) I think both have culpability for this situation. I don't want Rodgers to be Capt. Check Down, but there are times when he could do the D a solid and keep the chains moving instead of going for the big play. Is there anyone here who regularly watches the all 22 view of these games that can see the whole field to see how often Rodgers is missing open receivers?

I also think that MM dials back on the versatility of Aaron Jones, especially in the second half, even when it's only a one score game. How similar have the last two games looked in that regard?

No matter who is to blame, they share primary responsibility for the outcome on offense. The franchise QB is not going to be released just after being signed to his latest deal. If anyone is going to take the fall, it's MM. He is not completely to blame, but he is ultimately responsible for the outcome.

About the check down stuff. I think we forget that they have been checking down for quite a while. The entire WR screen arsenal was part of McCarthy's attempt to ramp the offense back up after the slowdowns in 2015 and 2016. Rodgers YPA, already declining, went down significantly.

The result was a higher completion percentage, but no more first downs. Defenses, especially those sitting back in deep zones, love passes short of the sticks.

So while short routes and checkdowns are part of the problem, they aren't the design flaw. That stuff is in there. Its situational awareness about when it wise to use them.

[MadScientist]

Rodgers has been poor this year, but MM has lost Rodgers and the team. Fire him and see if Rodgers can be salvaged. With the huge contract extension Rodgers got, there is little other choice.

[call_me_ishmael]

Rodgers is to blame but they aren't getting rid of Rodgers.

[gbgary]

i was in favor of trading Rodgers back before the draft. there isn't a baker mayfield (who i wanted) out there in this next draft. i don't think there's anyone out there with the cap room and draft fodder to take him now (the giants maybe). nah...we've got to ride this out now. sooooo it's got to be MM and Philbin. this off-season is going to be pretty interesting.

[mraynrand]

About the check down stuff. I think we forget that they have been checking down for quite a while. The entire WR screen arsenal was part of McCarthy's attempt to ramp the offense back up after the slowdowns in 2015 and 2016. Rodgers YPA, already declining, went down significantly.

The result was a higher completion percentage, but no more first downs. Defenses, especially those sitting back in deep zones, love passes short of the sticks.

So while short routes and checkdowns are part of the problem, they aren't the design flaw. That stuff is in there. Its situational awareness about when it wise to use them.


There's a big difference between called short plays (screens) and having an underneath option (and taking it) when the play is designed to exploit single high safety deep and it isn't there.

[mraynrand]

I think the personnel is generally poorer than a lot of people want to admit.

But let's suppose that's not true. Then why can't Stubbers (or Rodgers with his famous 'lack of confidence/trust' in new receivers) exploit the speed of Davis, EQ, and Exxon Valdez, and the solid route running of Kumerow Adams and Graham? They added a couple of wrinkles (jet sweep) but did they really go all out to incorporate the younger receivers into a scheme they could manage? Honestly, the Browns fired Hue Jackson and their OC, and put the receivers' coach in as OC and what did he do? He simplified the offense so everyone was on the same page. Maybe they only have 30 plays, but they run 'em pretty well, even with rookies and second year guys all over the place.

Oh, and after all that, MN does have a decent defense, especially at home. Kinda glossed over that one.

[mraynrand]

So I don't choose either option in this poll. It's at least both, plus scheme, plus personnel and a collection of pretty difficult road games.

[Carolina_Packer]

I think the personnel is generally poorer than a lot of people want to admit.

But let's suppose that's not true. Then why can't Stubbers (or Rodgers with his famous 'lack of confidence/trust' in new receivers) exploit the speed of Davis, EQ, and Exxon Valdez, and the solid route running of Kumerow Adams and Graham? They added a couple of wrinkles (jet sweep) but did they really go all out to incorporate the younger receivers into a scheme they could manage? Honestly, the Browns fired Hue Jackson and their OC, and put the receivers' coach in as OC and what did he do? He simplified the offense so everyone was on the same page. Maybe they only have 30 plays, but they run 'em pretty well, even with rookies and second year guys all over the place.

Oh, and after all that, MN does have a decent defense, especially at home. Kinda glossed over that one.

Seems like in the last several games, no matter how they come out looking like they have a run game, or a threat of one, and mix-up plays well, it's like they are fighting themselves in the second half with a different approach that makes them easier to defend. As others have hinted, use the personnel you have to mix things up, keep people involved. I'm not sure if it's MM ignoring certain guys (MVS missing in action the last two weeks), Aaron Jones disappearing act in the second half (not his fault). A-Rod is so used to putting on his cape and rescuing the team, and also having more guys with whom he is on the same page.

I'm jealous of other teams that roll with the punches. Sure, New Orleans and LA Rams have some nice, experienced talent on offense, but New England doesn't have elite talent on offense at skill positions, but the find a way to make the offense function. To me, it can be about the talent level. In 2005 we had Samkon Gado at RB and Bill Schroeder at WR. We're better off than that, obviously, so why are they struggling so mightily? They appear to be fighting themselves concerning their approach instead of just taking what the defense gives them, but maybe the offense is not setup to be good at countering the opposing defense's approach. Either that or the Packers offensive approach is stubborn. The "we've got Aaron Rodgers" approach. The results of this year are reminding me of 2005, but I think the offense has way better talent at skill positions.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

The White Lightning (Billy S) didn’t play for the Packers in 2005. James Jones’ brutha Jamel did, though, along with Sackrell’s clone, Brady Poppinga.

My archenemy the Kentucky can confirm the aforementioned facts.

[pbmax]

I think the personnel is generally poorer than a lot of people want to admit.


This is true. This isn't even the equivalent WR corp to Nelson, Jones and Cobb in his younger days.

Still no functional TE attack.

And the O line is poor at pass blocking, especially at Guard.

[Joemailman]

This is true. This isn't even the equivalent WR corp to Nelson, Jones and Cobb in his younger days.

Still no functional TE attack.

And the O line is poor at pass blocking, especially at Guard.

TT had great success drafting WR's in Round 2 and OL in Round 4-5, but then got away from it. Whether that was just the way the draft board fell, or an attempt to shore up the defense, the effects are now being felt.

[beveaux1]

TT had great success drafting WR's in Round 2 and OL in Round 4-5, but then got away from it. Whether that was just the way the draft board fell, or an attempt to shore up the defense, the effects are now being felt.

This is very true. TT continued to draft WRs and OL but it was round 5-7. There is usually a difference, maybe more red marks, against talent in the 6th round compared to the 2nd round. Same as the difference between 4th and 7th round talent. It was like he recognized the need for these positions, but had other, more pressing needs. Besides Adams, we suffer from not having any receivers on the team with that speed, moves, hands, and smarts combination or...they’re too young to have developed it. He drafted Spriggs in the 2nd but that really looks like a miss. Any 3 year or younger player is a free agent and appears to be a JAG or worse.

[beveaux1]

This is very true. TT continued to draft WRs and OL but it was round 5-7. There is usually a difference, maybe more red marks, against talent in the 6th round compared to the 2nd round. Same as the difference between 4th and 7th round talent. It was like he recognized the need for these positions, but had other, more pressing needs. Besides Adams, we suffer from not having any receivers on the team with that speed, moves, hands, and smarts combination or...they’re too young to have developed it. He drafted Spriggs in the 2nd but that really looks like a miss. Any 3 year or younger player is a free agent and appears to be a JAG or worse.


On the OL.

[Cheesehead Craig]

When was the last time you watched the Packers offense and said "Wow, what a well schemed play that was. It was so innovative "? Sorry, I can't think of any in the last 6+ years. In the NFL, you either change things up to keep pace, or you become irrelevant. The Packers are the latter right now. Stale, stale offense.

[pbmax]

Rodgers is to blame but they aren't getting rid of Rodgers.

Ten vote for Rodgers, this isn't a prediction thread. Tell us what you think.

Been the most fun on this site since (outside Super Bowl run) Favre showed up on the tarmac during a practice.

[pbmax]

I think the biggest failing was the focus on defense.

Looking back now, Ted should have gone BPA rather than D need and spent that player acquisition energy on FAs.

[Freak Out]

Arod is not playing very well...it's not just OL play or rook WRs either, the guy is bouncing balls in the flat for fucks sake. That said the M3 era has run it's course. He's had Arod in his prime with stellar talent and failed over and over.

[gbgary]

Arod is not playing very well...it's not just OL play or rook WRs either, the guy is bouncing balls in the flat for fucks sake. That said the M3 era has run it's course. He's had Arod in his prime with stellar talent and failed over and over.

prime? yes but he's been trending down. stellar talent? ok but they've been trending down for some time too. plenty of blame to go around. 2015 to present the Packers are 31-27-1. that indicates an abundance of suck that goes from the gm(s) down.

[Smidgeon]

Check out the graphics from the last game regarding where the ball is thrown. Does GB fear the two safeties of Minnesota this much?

https://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/confessions-of-a-polluted-mindset-a-packers-brain-drain-709

[Joemailman]

Check out the graphics from the last game regarding where the ball is thrown. Does GB fear the two safeties of Minnesota this much?

https://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/confessions-of-a-polluted-mindset-a-packers-brain-drain-709

I've been surprised all year they haven't targeted the TE's over the middle more. Not just Graham but Lewis too. Lewis has been targeted 4 times all year. He's probably pissed. Probably wouldn't have come here if he's known this would happen.

[gbgary]

Check out the graphics from the last game regarding where the ball is thrown. Does GB fear the two safeties of Minnesota this much?

https://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/confessions-of-a-polluted-mindset-a-packers-brain-drain-709

almost nothing in the middle...where the underneath stuff is...where te's, rb's, and slot guys should be making their living, where the ball doesn't have to be held for 3+ seconds, where wow-type throws aren't needed, where 3rd and 5 should be near automatic. ridiculous. smh

[Pugger]

Rodgers is to blame but they aren't getting rid of Rodgers.

Rodgers isn't playing up to his usual standards this year but he isn't the only one to blame for this mess.

[MadScientist]

Rodgers is to blame but they aren't getting rid of Rodgers.


Rodgers isn't playing up to his usual standards this year but he isn't the only one to blame for this mess.

As a parallel, look back at the 1999 season. Bret Favre injured his thumb in pre-season and it bothered him all season. There were games that were lost because Favre missed the open receiver because the injury impacted the throw. After the 8-8 finished, Rhodes was canned. Does anyone think this was the wrong decision, even though they probably would have made the playoffs if Favre wasn't hurting?

[mraynrand]

As a parallel, look back at the 1999 season. Bret Favre injured his thumb in pre-season and it bothered him all season. There were games that were lost because Favre missed the open receiver because the injury impacted the throw. After the 8-8 finished, Rhodes was canned. Does anyone think this was the wrong decision, even though they probably would have made the playoffs if Favre wasn't hurting?

There was a lot more wrong with that team than Favre, just like this year. Can only hope Gute has as great a GM year in 2019 as Wolf had in 2000.

I think Rhodes was getting canned regardless. Wolf pretty much had decided that it wasn't going to work. Missing the playoffs just made it less controversial.

[MadScientist]

There was a lot more wrong with that team than Favre, just like this year. Can only hope Gute has as great a GM year in 2019 as Wolf had in 2000.

I think Rhodes was getting canned regardless. Wolf pretty much had decided that it wasn't going to work. Missing the playoffs just made it less controversial.

Part of what was wrong was having to replace Brian Williams with dumber than dirt Jude Waddy. If not for that and Brett, the Packers would have won at least 10 games that year and it's very unlikely Wolf fires Rhodes.

[mraynrand]

Part of what was wrong was having to replace Brian Williams with dumber than dirt Jude Waddy. If not for that and Brett, the Packers would have won at least 10 games that year and it's very unlikely Wolf fires Rhodes.

Any number of things could have netted a few more wins. No blocked kick against Chicago, better clock management versus Carolina, etc. etc. I still contend that Wolf had made up his mind. It was a mess up there - back to the country club days. If they had made the playoffs, a drubbing in the WC round might have helped ease Rhodes out.

[pbmax]

I do recall that Rhodes took over the defense from Emitt Thomas I think after a stretch of bad play. I don't think it improved.

[texaspackerbacker]

This poll is flawed. The choices are both wrong.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

There was a lot more wrong with that team than Favre, just like this year. Can only hope Gute has as great a GM year in 2019 as Wolf had in 2000.

I think Rhodes was getting canned regardless. Wolf pretty much had decided that it wasn't going to work. Missing the playoffs just made it less controversial.

Favre’s QB coach that season fucked him up, plain and simple. That QB coach wasn’t so fat back then but he wasn’t any smarter than orangutans.

Edited: not funny enough.

[wist43]

Rodgers has been poor this year, but MM has lost Rodgers and the team. Fire him and see if Rodgers can be salvaged. With the huge contract extension Rodgers got, there is little other choice.

I agree.

[Pugger]

This poll is flawed. The choices are both wrong.

Who would be your pick of whose to blame?

[texaspackerbacker]

Who would be your pick of whose to blame?

As I've written several times, circumstances - luck, officiating, freak events, etc. At least 3 of the losses plus the tie just shouldn't have happened. As I've also said several times, the O-Line is pretty shitty, but really no worse than previous years when the record was a lot better. I also would still blame Ted Thompson for screwing things up so badly for so long. That explains the shortcomings of the defense more than anything else.

I'm no great fan of McCarthy, but I don't see him as the primary factor in this year's badness - and certainly not Aaron Rodgers.