More Banjo: Week 16 @ NYJets

[pbmax]

J-E-T-S JETS JETS JETS!

If you need a road win, this is the place to go. They didn't make Gute's job any easier, but I am glad they won.

[texaspackerbacker]

Condolences to the lame-assed "fans" who wanted the Packers to lose.

[Teamcheez1]

I always root for the Packers, but I sure would have liked a higher draft pick.

[pbmax]

Rodgers had one of his best games. Did not start out that way and he is still holding onto the ball too long with shaky protection.

Stunned Bulaga made it through the game. Especially after he took a knee and looked hurt on one play.

McCray spent more than half the year looking like he cannot play. But Lucas Patrick looks like a keeper. If they got one new guard starter somewhere, Taylor or Patrick would round it out OK, even though it wasn't Taylor's strongest year either.

Not sure about either receiver except that MVS quick start probably got overtaken by ESB. Moore is buried. Kumerow knows how to run routes. If they do not sign Cobb, he could be the slot, 3rd down guy easily if they have threats outside to complement Adams.

Alexander had a groin and didn't return. Been a tough year for DBs.

[beveaux1]

Rodgers had one of his best games. Did not start out that way and he is still holding onto the ball too long with shaky protection.

Stunned Bulaga made it through the game. Especially after he took a knee and looked hurt on one play.

McCray spent more than half the year looking like he cannot play. But Lucas Patrick looks like a keeper. If they got one new guard starter somewhere, Taylor or Patrick would round it out OK, even though it wasn't Taylor's strongest year either.

Not sure about either receiver except that MVS quick start probably got overtaken by ESB. Moore is buried. Kumerow knows how to run routes. If they do not sign Cobb, he could be the slot, 3rd down guy easily if they have threats outside to complement Adams.

Alexander had a groin and didn't return. Been a tough year for DBs.

I agree with you about the guards, but I believe we should keep Bulaga and draft a new tackle. Kumerow may be Cobb’s replacement. He does have moves and seems to integrate into the offense better than the other rookies. I still think we need to draft another WR early for development, because I think 2 of the 3 rookies we drafted this year will wash.

Brown may be a keeper. We need to re-sign Breeland and maybe keep Williams at safety next year.

[Bossman641]

Tony Brown? I dunno. He seems like he tries hard but I feel like he gets beat all day.

[texaspackerbacker]

Again today, when it was desperation time, and they turned it over to Aaron Rodgers, things went great. Short quick passes don't cut it. Throwing it down the field is the way to go. Avoiding the rush and scrambling, primarily to pass, but with the QB running as an option also, that also is what's needed.

All the noise about how we need to draft a WR, a big no way to that. Adams, MVS, St. Brown, Kumerow, and yes, Moore is still in the picture. What more do you want? If we need a 6th WR, there's always somebody good around as a UDFA or maybe 7th round. What we need among receivers is better coaching - coming back to the QB in the scramble drill, whatever.

TE also, drafting one early is not a good idea. I have come to the conclusion that I'd rather see the Packers get rid of Graham and save the money. Kendrick, though, has improved to where I don't hate him and would like to see him re-signed for a moderate amount. Also, Tonyan seems worth keeping. Any more than that, we ought to be able to draft late or get as a UDFA.

The future is bright for RBs. A few downs each game with both A. Jones and Williams on the field is fine, but rotating them is better. The probable UDFA I'd like to see picked up is Taiwan Deal of the Badgers. The guy just might be a decent pro.

I also like Lucas Patrick. I'm thinking part of the shittiness of our O Line will be fixed with a new O Line coach. Still, we should draft at least 2 between the 2nd and 5th rounds.

It wouldn't bother me at all if the new head coach lets Pettine go. I really don't see that he is all that great. With him or with somebody else as D Coordinator, we need to draft mostly on the D side.

And I really hope we pick up a kicker (or several) to find somebody to replace Crosby. He makes a helluva lot of money, and a whole lot of kickers drawing near minimum pay do as good or better than he does.

[red]

Condolences to the lame-assed "fans" who wanted the Packers to lose.

remember that when in 4 to 5 years youre still bitching that we are always mediocre because we never get high draft picks

at least you'll forever be able to celebrate this win that will go down in history as doing nothing but cost us the chance at an elite prospect

we won a meaningless game today, and it might have cost us the chance to get back to the super bowl one more time in the rodgers era

what was proved by the win today? that we can beat a really really bad team in overtime? thats it

[Rutnstrut]

Tex, I notice you didn't say anything about how well they ran the ball today. Without the threat of the run late in the game, they don't win. I'm not talking about Rodgers running.

[red]

Tex, I notice you didn't say anything about how well they ran the ball today. Without the threat of the run late in the game, they don't win. I'm not talking about Rodgers running.

one good thing looking forward is that, at least for another season, we are completely set at RB with jones and williams

we just need to find a HC and OC that know how to use them

[pbmax]

Rodgers had one of his best games. Did not start out that way and he is still holding onto the ball too long with shaky protection.


EDIT: should have been "best games of this year". Not an all timer.

[pbmax]

I agree with you about the guards, but I believe we should keep Bulaga and draft a new tackle. Kumerow may be Cobb’s replacement. He does have moves and seems to integrate into the offense better than the other rookies. I still think we need to draft another WR early for development, because I think 2 of the 3 rookies we drafted this year will wash.

Brown may be a keeper. We need to re-sign Breeland and maybe keep Williams at safety next year.

Yes on Tackle. Working on assumption that everyone thinks this was probably confusing on my part.

Also agree on WR. Need another wide threat since none appear to be locks.

[Pugger]

I know some of you are unhappy about dropping in the upcoming draft but I for one am glad we won't be in the same list along with the woeful 1958 Scooter McLain Packers that lost every damn road game.

[mraynrand]

I know some of you are unhappy about dropping in the upcoming draft but I for one am glad we won't be in the same list along with the woeful 1958 Scooter McLain Packers that lost every damn road game.

After going to all the trouble they did to tank the season, and position themselves for better draft picks, having Rodgers pull out all the stops to prove he can win without Stubby was a meaningless and potentially very costly display of pure vanity.

But I confess, I enjoyed the second half. It's still just a transient football game, and I might be dead come next fall.

[red]

I know some of you are unhappy about dropping in the upcoming draft but I for one am glad we won't be in the same list along with the woeful 1958 Scooter McLain Packers that lost every damn road game.

Did you know before this season that the 58 team was the last packer team to lose all their road games?

No one did, cause no one cared until this years team was so bad

We’ll now forget again about the 58 team just like history will forget this years team and today’s loss

Win or lose today, history will only remember this season for being complete shitshow, we may as well have gotten something good out of it

[Guiness]

EDIT: should have been "best games of this year". Not an all timer.

I'd say first game vs Bears (week 1?) was better

[Pugger]

Did you know before this season that the 58 team was the last packer team to lose all their road games?

No one did, cause no one cared until this years team was so bad

We’ll now forget again about the 58 team just like history will forget this years team and today’s loss

Win or lose today, history will only remember this season for being complete shitshow, we may as well have gotten something good out of it

No but those damn announcers today kept harping on it, didn't they?

Yeah, we dropped a little in the draft and probably will again after next week seeing the loins are in full tank mode but I don't want our guys quitting. IMO that is just not a good look.

[yetisnowman]

I get the logic of the "tanking" philosophy, but in the NFL what do want the team to do? Bench a bunch of healthy starters? Punt on 3rd down? Imagine your a Packer fan in New York and you bought tickets this game over the summer. You're told "Sorry you're stuck watching Deshone Kizer today cause the benefits of GB getting the 7th pick instead of the 12th are too great to pass up" . Of course I'd love a high pick but it's not practical to expect a pro NFL team to lay down, intentionally give less than a hundred percent in hopes they lose.

[Teamcheez1]

I get the logic of the "tanking" philosophy, but in the NFL what do want the team to do? Bench a bunch of healthy starters? Punt on 3rd down? Imagine your a Packer fan in New York and you bought tickets this game over the summer. You're told "Sorry you're stuck watching Deshone Kizer today cause the benefits of GB getting the 7th pick instead of the 12th are too great to pass up" . Of course I'd love a high pick but it's not practical to expect a pro NFL team to lay down, intentionally give less than a hundred percent in hopes they lose.

I was offered free tickets to this game and turned them down.

[mraynrand]

I get the logic of the "tanking" philosophy, but in the NFL what do want the team to do? Bench a bunch of healthy starters? Punt on 3rd down? Imagine your a Packer fan in New York and you bought tickets this game over the summer. You're told "Sorry you're stuck watching Deshone Kizer today cause the benefits of GB getting the 7th pick instead of the 12th are too great to pass up" . Of course I'd love a high pick but it's not practical to expect a pro NFL team to lay down, intentionally give less than a hundred percent in hopes they lose.


All reasonable. But, you easily can argue that Rodgers is pretty beat up and you're protecting the franchise instead of putting him out there behind a pretty marginal line. Bench the beat up guys and you're OK.

OTH, I get the argument for not tanking and remaining competitive being good for team cohesiveness and expectations. In this scenario, you keep expectations and accountability high. Also, if your front office is worth anything, they ought to be able to draft pro-bowlers throughout the draft. If they can't do this, you're finished anyway (See Cleveland Browns 1999-2016).

[Rutnstrut]

For those that wanted them to lose for draft position. Get real, it's not like one high draft pick is going to save this team.

[yetisnowman]

All reasonable. But, you easily can argue that Rodgers is pretty beat up and you're protecting the franchise instead of putting him out there behind a pretty marginal line. Bench the beat up guys and you're OK.

OTH, I get the argument for not tanking and remaining competitive being good for team cohesiveness and expectations. In this scenario, you keep expectations and accountability high. Also, if your front office is worth anything, they ought to be able to draft pro-bowlers throughout the draft. If they can't do this, you're finished anyway (See Cleveland Browns 1999-2016).

I mean isn't everybody beat up at this point of the year? I didn't see much of a hitch in Rodgers giddy up, other than after he was hit in the midsection. Training camp is 6 months away. Pretty hard sell to the fan base, and even harder to sell to the competitor to just take the rest of year off to avoid winning.
Agree on all your other assessments.

[yetisnowman]

I was offered free tickets to this game and turned them down.

Cool

[smuggler]

Kumerow is a real mystery.

[call_me_ishmael]

For those that wanted them to lose for draft position. Get real, it's not like one high draft pick is going to save this team.

For starters, you have no idea. But if this game took them from 7 to 14th, it isn't 7 picks, it's 49 picks. Having the choice of nearly 50 extra player is a massive advantage - get real.

[Joemailman]

remember that when in 4 to 5 years youre still bitching that we are always mediocre because we never get high draft picks

at least you'll forever be able to celebrate this win that will go down in history as doing nothing but cost us the chance at an elite prospect

we won a meaningless game today, and it might have cost us the chance to get back to the super bowl one more time in the rodgers era

what was proved by the win today? that we can beat a really really bad team in overtime? thats it

Packers will be picking somewhere between 10-16. It's asinine to think that picking in the top 10 instead of the teens greatly increasas their chances of playing in a Superb Owl. Drafting isn't all luck like Tex says, but it isn't an exact science either. The good GM's draft more great players than the bad ones regardless of their draft position. We'll see if Gutey is a good one. If he isn't, drafting ib the top 10 won't help.

[texaspackerbacker]

Tex, I notice you didn't say anything about how well they ran the ball today. Without the threat of the run late in the game, they don't win. I'm not talking about Rodgers running.

What I noticed is that when things were going good, it was pass pass pass - to a great extent out of desperation. When they ran first or passed short, things didn't go so well. Just the same, I'm glad we had decent ability to run as a change of pace. Yes, that made the passing game better, but more to the point, the great passing game made the run game work. At times today, the O Line was not as bad as usual also.

What I want to see is that we play the first, second, and third quarter the way we played the fourth quarter today and so many other desperation times.

[texaspackerbacker]

All reasonable. But, you easily can argue that Rodgers is pretty beat up and you're protecting the franchise instead of putting him out there behind a pretty marginal line. Bench the beat up guys and you're OK.

OTH, I get the argument for not tanking and remaining competitive being good for team cohesiveness and expectations. In this scenario, you keep expectations and accountability high. Also, if your front office is worth anything, they ought to be able to draft pro-bowlers throughout the draft. If they can't do this, you're finished anyway (See Cleveland Browns 1999-2016).

Yeah, he sure looked beat up hahahahaha. And yes, whether it's skill or luck in the draft or whatever combination, the chances of getting star quality players isn't gonna change much if you go up or down a couple of picks.

And no, Joe, I never said drafting is ALL luck - just that there's a helluva lot of luck involved.

[texaspackerbacker]

Kumerow is a real mystery.

Explain please.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Condolences to the lame-assed "fans" who wanted the Packers to lose.

I was stoic.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Draft position affects all 7 rounds, not just the first.

Draft position means a lot. It's a factor whether a GM is good or bad. It may not be important as the skill of the GM, but it still biases the outcome.

[mraynrand]

Draft position affects all 7 rounds, not just the first.

Draft position means a lot. It's a factor whether a GM is good or bad. It may not be important as the skill of the GM, but it still biases the outcome.

yep. The brain trust blew an entire season to position the team fro draft success in 2019. More vanity wins for Rodgers isn't helping.

[mmmdk]

Great Packers win and AR is not done!

[mraynrand]

Great Packers win and AR is not done!

"great"


It was fun, but I disagree with 'great'

Also, Rodgers got the desire reaction from you. In some ways, that's probably a good thing.

[ThunderDan]

I loved the game and the win. It was a fun 4th quarter and overtime. A game to cheer about after all of the disappointments.

[Rutnstrut]

For starters, you have no idea. But if this game took them from 7 to 14th, it isn't 7 picks, it's 49 picks. Having the choice of nearly 50 extra player is a massive advantage - get real.

Even if they hit big time on their pick. There are too many areas of need, it's pretty obvious.

[bobblehead]

For those that wanted them to lose for draft position. Get real, it's not like one high draft pick is going to save this team.

Strangely for a guy I rarely agree with, this is spot on. Just as I have said before, every fan thinks they are one superstar away. Truth is we are much further than that. We need the kind of drafts that net you 5 starters from every damn round. Teams win because they get tyreek hill in the 5th and Justin Houston in the 3rd....but fans only remember trading up for Maholmes.

[texaspackerbacker]

Teams win because they get tyreek hill in the 5th and Justin Houston in the 3rd....but fans only remember trading up for Maholmes.

Would you agree, that sort of thing requires a large amount of LUCK?

My contention, of course, is that we are right there with what we already have - not even with an additional superstar. Aaron Rodgers + crap = a strong team; Aaron Rodgers + mediocrity = excellence. Aaron Rodgers with a good supporting cast would be damn near unbeatable.

[bobblehead]

Would you agree, that sort of thing requires a large amount of LUCK?

My contention, of course, is that we are right there with what we already have - not even with an additional superstar. Aaron Rodgers + crap = a strong team; Aaron Rodgers + mediocrity = excellence. Aaron Rodgers with a good supporting cast would be damn near unbeatable.

No, I disagree on nearly every count. Drafting is not Luck, some guys are much better at it. Ozzie Newsome has drafted superior to the league for about 15-20 years. Rodgers certainly elevates a team, but at the end of the day the only time he makes a tackle is when he throws a pick. He can't run a route and get open for MVS. HOF QBs elevate a team, but they need a lot of help to win a superbowl. If that wasn't the case then guys like Flacco and Dilfer could never win one.

[bobblehead]

Also to the luck factor, TT must be one lucky SOB. He basically GMed a superbowl roster in seattle and GB. Schneider rebuilt KC and is doing the same with Cleveland. Some guys have a track record of success and some don't. Having a top notch scouting department helps and ours keeps getting raided.

[Bretsky]

My contention, of course, is that we are right there with what we already have - not even with an additional superstar. Aaron Rodgers + crap = a strong team; Aaron Rodgers + mediocrity = excellence. Aaron Rodgers with a good supporting cast would be damn near unbeatable.


I love your logic and look forward to our run in the playoffs this year

[texaspackerbacker]

No, I disagree on nearly every count. Drafting is not Luck, some guys are much better at it. Ozzie Newsome has drafted superior to the league for about 15-20 years. Rodgers certainly elevates a team, but at the end of the day the only time he makes a tackle is when he throws a pick. He can't run a route and get open for MVS. HOF QBs elevate a team, but they need a lot of help to win a superbowl. If that wasn't the case then guys like Flacco and Dilfer could never win one.

You're putting the cart before the horse. Yeah, in rare cases, teams can win Super Bowls with mediocre QBs; That's a whole different topic from the idea that a Great QB can win with a mediocre supporting cast. Clearly, both scenarios can happen; Clearly, both have happened.

Ozzie Newsome probably was a good GM/good at drafting. His teams were fairly good during his tenure, but you can say the same for a lot of teams - New England and Green Bay at the top of that list and actually way better than Baltimore. He also got lucky with his draft picks a lot. I never said drafting is ALL luck; I just said LUCK is a major part of success - players falling to you, injuries or the lack of them, players performing above or below expectations long term, etc.

[pbmax]

After going to all the trouble they did to tank the season, and position themselves for better draft picks, having Rodgers pull out all the stops to prove he can win without Stubby was a meaningless and potentially very costly display of pure vanity.

But I confess, I enjoyed the second half. It's still just a transient football game, and I might be dead come next fall.

That is what the team gets for not publicly committing to the Tank™. If they had, or if they just tell Rodgers to sit, it could have been done.

This part of the "plan" makes me think that the midseason firing wasn't originally part of the plan.

[pbmax]

Draft position affects all 7 rounds, not just the first.

Draft position means a lot. It's a factor whether a GM is good or bad. It may not be important as the skill of the GM, but it still biases the outcome.

Listen to this man.

[Pugger]

You're putting the cart before the horse. Yeah, in rare cases, teams can win Super Bowls with mediocre QBs; That's a whole different topic from the idea that a Great QB can win with a mediocre supporting cast. Clearly, both scenarios can happen; Clearly, both have happened.

Ozzie Newsome probably was a good GM/good at drafting. His teams were fairly good during his tenure, but you can say the same for a lot of teams - New England and Green Bay at the top of that list and actually way better than Baltimore. He also got lucky with his draft picks a lot. I never said drafting is ALL luck; I just said LUCK is a major part of success - players falling to you, injuries or the lack of them, players performing above or below expectations long term, etc.

Mediocre QBs that win Super Bowls do so because they have historically great defenses.

[pbmax]

Can we make a list of things that pointed to the Packers beginning a soft rebuild (which is what I think this has been)?

1. McCarthy gets short term extension as Thompson leaves


...please add your own

[red]

Starting safety and former first round pick trades in middle of season for 4th round pick

At this point we had given up on this year and started preparing for future years

[pbmax]

Starting safety and former first round pick trades in middle of season for 4th round pick

At this point we had given up on this year and started preparing for future years

I agree, but that was during the season after it was apparent there was going to be problems. Maybe we need two lists.

Offseason Tank Job
1. McCarthy gets short term extension as Thompson leaves

In Season Tank Job
1. Trade Clinton-Dix mid-season for a 4th round pick

[Fritz]

I think whomever it was who said Murphy played this whole thing down the middle was correct.

I'm speculating, of course, but I think that on the one hand, Murphy saw the problems we all saw with MM's teams - the increasingly porous defense under Capers, the consistently poor special teams, MM's inability to get the offense running smoothly for long stretches. On the other hand, he also had MM bitching in his ear about the lack of talent (the 2015 draft was Ted's undoing, I think), and MM also had his past successes, as well as (I think) a 4 - 1 record when Rodgers went down due to Barr's late hit last year. So Murphy was reluctant to simply clean house -firing a guy who was (again, I think) 4 - 1 before the star quarterback got hurt would be a bold and controversial move. Thus, getting rid of Ted and extending MM for one year was a kind of compromise. It's a compromise that set this team back a year, at least, and it also was a compromise solution that apparently resulted from Murphy not seeing or not choosing to see that MM had not developed Brett Hundley very well.

In hindsight it's easy to criticize, but if you look at the Lions, they had Jim Caldwell, who'd gotten them a couple 9-7 records in a row, but could not get past the first game of the playoffs. So they ditched him, the GM proclaiming that Caldwell had more talent than the record indicated, and now the Lions are 5-10 and swirling back down the toilet.

Which, by the way, is also a reason that it was good that the Packers won against the Jets. Saw an article two days ago about how the Lions' last miserable loss (to the Vikings, this time, and featuring another end-of-half hail mary success by the opposing team) has resulted in much gloom and dissatisfaction within the locker room - our old buddy Ricky Jean Francois was spouting off about changing the culture, etc, etc, and there are mutterings that they'd love to get rid of Stafford and start over (again).

So there are risks in cutting ties with a Super Bowl-winning coach who'd had his team 4 - 1 before the star QB got injured. Therefore, you play it down the middle - fire the GM, extend the coach for one year, see what happens.

And once Murphy saw what happened - those old problems cropping up again with an inconsistent offense and lousy special teams - he cut bait. Simply firing Capers was not enough to save MM's job.

It was a mistake to go down that road, but it's understandable.

[Patler]

I agree, but that was during the season after it was apparent there was going to be problems. Maybe we need two lists.

Offseason Tank Job
1. McCarthy gets short term extension as Thompson leaves

In Season Tank Job
1. Trade Clinton-Dix mid-season for a 4th round pick

Off Season - trading the most effective CB from 2017, the leader in interceptions and a former first round draft pick still on his rookie contract, who was actually playing decently at the end of 2017, for a backup QB who was not just unproven, but had played enough to show that he needed a total reboot before he would be an effective contributor even as a backup. Teams with playoff aspirations find ways to deal with personalities like Randall unless they have an abundance of talent at his position and/or can trade him for a player who will be a significant contributor even at a different position. Rodgers' age and injury history related to his playing style necessitated finding a true backup QB who could hold the fort somewhat when Rodgers went down. While they might legitimately like Kizers potential, I think they knew he would be no better in 2018 than Hundley was in 2017.

Clearly a move looking to the future at the detriment of the present.


In Season - The quick and prolific use of IR since early November. I suspect some of these players could have been contributors later in the season. Instead, GB used it as an opportunity to evaluate backups and many players from the practice squad in real game situations. It also allows them to stockpile contracted players for next year. The only player who has been nursed along is Bulaga, and that was done to safeguard Rodgers as much as possible.

[mraynrand]

In Season - The quick and prolific use of IR since early November. I suspect some of these players could have been contributors later in the season. Instead, GB used it as an opportunity to evaluate backups and many players from the practice squad in real game situations. It also allows them to stockpile contracted players for next year. The only player who has been nursed along is Bulaga, and that was done to safeguard Rodgers as much as possible.

yep. But one thing I always forget about are player bonuses. I really have little interest looking this up, but perhaps some of the moves to continue competitive play and not rest players have to do with statistical levels needed for bonuses. With respect to quick IR for some players, do most compensation packages adjust for IR which is an organizational decision which a player can't really dispute? (a player conceivably could cause trouble if a quick hook cost him $$)....

[beveaux1]

I think whomever it was who said Murphy played this whole thing down the middle was correct.

I'm speculating, of course, but I think that on the one hand, Murphy saw the problems we all saw with MM's teams - the increasingly porous defense under Capers, the consistently poor special teams, MM's inability to get the offense running smoothly for long stretches. On the other hand, he also had MM bitching in his ear about the lack of talent (the 2015 draft was Ted's undoing, I think), and MM also had his past successes, as well as (I think) a 4 - 1 record when Rodgers went down due to Barr's late hit last year. So Murphy was reluctant to simply clean house -firing a guy who was (again, I think) 4 - 1 before the star quarterback got hurt would be a bold and controversial move. Thus, getting rid of Ted and extending MM for one year was a kind of compromise. It's a compromise that set this team back a year, at least, and it also was a compromise solution that apparently resulted from Murphy not seeing or not choosing to see that MM had not developed Brett Hundley very well.

In hindsight it's easy to criticize, but if you look at the Lions, they had Jim Caldwell, who'd gotten them a couple 9-7 records in a row, but could not get past the first game of the playoffs. So they ditched him, the GM proclaiming that Caldwell had more talent than the record indicated, and now the Lions are 5-10 and swirling back down the toilet.

Which, by the way, is also a reason that it was good that the Packers won against the Jets. Saw an article two days ago about how the Lions' last miserable loss (to the Vikings, this time, and featuring another end-of-half hail mary success by the opposing team) has resulted in much gloom and dissatisfaction within the locker room - our old buddy Ricky Jean Francois was spouting off about changing the culture, etc, etc, and there are mutterings that they'd love to get rid of Stafford and start over (again).

So there are risks in cutting ties with a Super Bowl-winning coach who'd had his team 4 - 1 before the star QB got injured. Therefore, you play it down the middle - fire the GM, extend the coach for one year, see what happens.

And once Murphy saw what happened - those old problems cropping up again with an inconsistent offense and lousy special teams - he cut bait. Simply firing Capers was not enough to save MM's job.

It was a mistake to go down that road, but it's understandable.

I was of the impression that TT and MM were both given 1 year extensions at the same time, before the end of last season. At the end of last season, TT was relieved of his position, if rumors are true, because of a medical condition. After Gute was hired, again after lobbying against Ball by MM, MM was placed directly under Murphy, which most felt was a protection for MM since most GMs want to hire their own coach.

I think the less than stellar performance of the team, the loud grumblings by the fan base, and the implied criticism of the coach by Rodgers caused the mid-season firing. I don't think MM was marked for dismissal at the beginning of the year, but I think he needed to make the playoffs and keep his QB happy to keep his job mainly because of the poor showing by Hundley, who had been groomed by MM as his back-up QB choice.

Everybody looks at the dismissal of TT as the beginnings of a rebuild of the Packers and that MM should have been swept out, also. I don't think there was ever a planned rebuild. I think circumstance took out TT, and I think team performance (and Rodgers, maybe) took out MM and none of it was part of some plan that Murphy had at the beginning of last season. That's giving way too much credit to some forward-thinking vision when it's probably just seat of the pants management.

[yetisnowman]

Would you agree, that sort of thing requires a large amount of LUCK?

My contention, of course, is that we are right there with what we already have - not even with an additional superstar. Aaron Rodgers + crap = a strong team; Aaron Rodgers + mediocrity = excellence. Aaron Rodgers with a good supporting cast would be damn near unbeatable.

Your argument makes no sense. According to you we have the necessary pieces to be contenders and don't need much help, yet you say that Rodgers plus garbage= a strong team. So why are the Packers 6-8-1? That certainly isn't the record of a strong team. So you're simultaneously saying the supporting cast is worse than crap, but that they don't need a lot of help.

[pbmax]

Off Season - trading the most effective CB from 2017, the leader in interceptions and a former first round draft pick still on his rookie contract, who was actually playing decently at the end of 2017, for a backup QB who was not just unproven, but had played enough to show that he needed a total reboot before he would be an effective contributor even as a backup. Teams with playoff aspirations find ways to deal with personalities like Randall unless they have an abundance of talent at his position and/or can trade him for a player who will be a significant contributor even at a different position. Rodgers' age and injury history related to his playing style necessitated finding a true backup QB who could hold the fort somewhat when Rodgers went down. While they might legitimately like Kizers potential, I think they knew he would be no better in 2018 than Hundley was in 2017.

Clearly a move looking to the future at the detriment of the present.


In Season - The quick and prolific use of IR since early November. I suspect some of these players could have been contributors later in the season. Instead, GB used it as an opportunity to evaluate backups and many players from the practice squad in real game situations. It also allows them to stockpile contracted players for next year. The only player who has been nursed along is Bulaga, and that was done to safeguard Rodgers as much as possible.


Offseason Tank Job
1. McCarthy gets short term extension as Thompson leaves
2. Randall traded for Kizer


In Season Tank Job
1. Trade Clinton-Dix mid-season for a 4th round pick
2. Liberal use of IT for injuries (esp. November forward) that players otherwise may have tried to play or be back for late season/playoffs

(let's post some names on this one)

What about trading down in first round for a #1 pick next year? Tank move or value pick?

[mraynrand]

I was of the impression that TT and MM were both given 1 year extensions at the same time, before the end of last season.

I'm not sure this is definitive, but looks like TT was signed through 2018 a few years earlier

http://archive.jsonline.com/sports/packers/ted-thompson-signs-multi-year-contract-extension-with-packers-b99321306z1-269278371.html

[texaspackerbacker]

Mediocre QBs that win Super Bowls do so because they have historically great defenses.

duh

My point was, that is a whole other topic from the idea of a great QB going to/winning SBs with mediocre talent otherwise. Both of those scenarios happen, just not often.

Sorry hahahahaha - I hear it from my wife all the time, "don't 'duh' me"

[mraynrand]

duh

My point was, that is a whole other topic from the idea of a great QB going to/winning SBs with mediocre talent otherwise. Both of those scenarios happen, just not often.

Sorry hahahahaha - I hear it from my wife all the time, "don't 'duh' me"

Name your top QBs winning the SB with mediocre talent

[beveaux1]

I'm not sure this is definitive, but looks like TT was signed through 2018 a few years earlier

http://archive.jsonline.com/sports/packers/ted-thompson-signs-multi-year-contract-extension-with-packers-b99321306z1-269278371.html

This is what I remember. http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/21942399/green-bay-packers-coach-mike-mccarthy-got-one-year-extension-season

Looks like both of them got an extension through 2019 after the 2016 season.

[gbgary]

was i seeing things or did i read somewhere that the 35 first downs the Packers got vs the jets some some sort of record...or the most in a veeeery long time?

[mraynrand]

This is what I remember. http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/21942399/green-bay-packers-coach-mike-mccarthy-got-one-year-extension-season

Looks like both of them got an extension through 2019 after the 2016 season.

OK, that makes sense

[pbmax]

That ESPN report doesn't line the two deals up.

It specifically says Thompson got some kinda one year deal after 2016. But says specifically that McCarthy got his extra year during the 2017 season.

[Bretsky]

Name your top QBs winning the SB with mediocre talent

Hmmmm; Green Bay's last Super Bowl ?

[mraynrand]

Hmmmm; Green Bay's last Super Bowl ?

You mean the team with the #2 defense?

[beveaux1]

That ESPN report doesn't line the two deals up.

It specifically says Thompson got some kinda one year deal after 2016. But says specifically that McCarthy got his extra year during the 2017 season.

That looks to be true, but Thompson was extended through 2019 and then he extended MCCarthy through 2019, both before the end of the 2017 season. Doesn’t change how I read the situation.

[Bretsky]

You mean the team with the #2 defense?

I say this with ignorance, but did we really have a #2 defense when we beat the Steelers ?

What I remember from that year was it was kind of a fairy tale, the chips fell perfectly for Green Bay. I didn't think they were remotely dominant and it was a pleasant surprise to see them win it all

[mraynrand]

I say this with ignorance, but did we really have a #2 defense when we beat the Steelers ?

What I remember from that year was it was kind of a fairy tale, the chips fell perfectly for Green Bay. I didn't think they were remotely dominant and it was a pleasant surprise to see them win it all

They were #2 in points allowed and #5 in yards allowed.

They could be dominant when healthy (like killing Dallas and decisively beating the Giants), but they lost two OT games and lost two with Rodgers getting KO'ed at Detroit and missing the NE game. They were never really blown out.

It was the accumulated injuries that really threw them for a loop, but the strong core was there, especially the defense (e.g. Woodson, Pickett, Raji, Matthews, Williams, Shields). That defense won the home game against Chicago to get into the playoffs and won at Chicago as well. Kept both Philly and ATL in check on the road, especially Williams with his three great picks.

[pbmax]

Football Outsiders as the 2010 defense #2, just ahead of NE but a full step short of #1 Steelers.

Defense against pass was #1, rush D was #16. Packer D #2 in 2009 as well, so not a fluke.