Complacency!!!

[Fosco33]

A number of articles have come out this offseason about the culture of the Packers.

Specifically around accountability and complacency.

Now we saw DRandall, HCD and Montgomery all get moved in the last year.

But being late to the plane? Ygbfkm

How deep does this go?

Is this on Murphy or M3?

Is M4 able to right this ship? You figure guys get paid to be pro’s and have to be managed like spoiled high schoolers?

[gbgary]

on murphy? no...it's on mccarthy/thompson. and it's pure disrespect. this crap started years ago...not with randall. sitton? maybe someone before that? had to be a veteran team leader with statis as anyone else's job would be on the line. the only one who publicly did it was rodgers but my guess is he just took his turn rather than being the first.

[pbmax]

on murphy? no...it's on mccarthy/thompson. this crap started years ago...not with randall. sitton? maybe someone before that? had to be a veteran team leader with statis as anyone else's job would be on the line. the only one who publicly did it was rodgers but my guess is he just took his turn rather than being the first.

You are confusing three different behaviors.

Randall was a talkative head case who had to be benched in a game because he couldn't get past a bad play. Given what we learned later, I suspect he was crossed up by communication on defense.

Sitton was blasting the offenses' predictability in public.

Josh Jones was the guy that Randall and Martinez were strongly hinting that was getting starting reps despite not being prepared or accountable.

Pick your poison. I suspect that not that much changed except talent level and number of wins.

Every time a players coach gets fired, everyone, including the players, wants a hard case. And then when he fails, everyone wants someone who can relate to the players. This is mostly just window dressing to the actual problems. It exists, but isn't the cause. Its a symptom.

[gbgary]

it all boils down to disrespect though. mouthing, showing up to meetings late, not being prepared, whatever, if they cared and there were consequences it wouldn't have happened or at least been taken care of quickly.

[Fosco33]

Was Sitton wrong? Or just because he disrespected the locker room code?

You have to imagine getting rid former starters/pro bowlers and HC mid season would, by itself, make guys wake up.

But we saw this shit in Week 1. How do you not get fired up to play at home, at night against your rival?

If it’s not playtime, getting cut, fined or getting kicked off the team - what consequences are left?

Did players just want out of GB at any cost? Is Arod that annoying to deal with?

[Joemailman]

Was Sitton wrong? Or just because he disrespected the locker room code?

You have to imagine getting rid former starters/pro bowlers and HC mid season would, by itself, make guys wake up.

But we saw this shit in Week 1. How do you not get fired up to play at home, at night against your rival?

If it’s not playtime, getting cut, fined or getting kicked off the team - what consequences are left?

Did players just want out of GB at any cost? Is Arod that annoying to deal with?

MM lost the respect of this team. I think the warning signs started last year. Hundley seeming to be unprepared to replace Rodgers. Randall unwilling to finish a game. HHCD passing up opportunities to make tackles against Detroit. It continued this year with the team seeming to be unprepared to play games, HHCD clearly wanting out, and finally the team coming out flat against Arizona in an absolutely must-win game.

[wist43]

I dont understand the complacency thing... to me, if you're a competitor, you should always want to win. From there, it's pure logic - do everything you personally can do to be your best, and help your team win.

I hate, HATE, losing!!! When in the heat of battle, I want to rip your throat out!!!

Playing headgames, and backstabbing people... get rid of those people - fast. That's why looking a man in the eye tells you more than his bio or stat sheet.

[Fosco33]

I dont understand the complacency thing... to me, if you're a competitor, you should always want to win. From there, it's pure logic - do everything you personally can do to be your best, and help your team win.

I hate, HATE, losing!!! When in the heat of battle, I want to rip your throat out!!!

Playing headgames, and backstabbing people... get rid of those people - fast. That's why looking a man in the eye tells you more than his bio or stat sheet.
Exactly. I help coach my kids 10yr basketball team. We were in OT last week w/ 8sec left and inbounding. I call a timeout and tell the team - just inbound the ball, dribble a few times and run out the clock as the team can’t press at that age level. Some people were pissed -they’re losers with a whiner attitude.

Surround yourself with people that want to win - at cards, league softball, bowling, fantasy, fortnite, or whatever.

Complacency has no place in life. Either you adapt, innovate or die. I’d offer anyone who didn’t want to be out there a one way ticket to the Queens or Bears w/ no sweat.

[pbmax]

Exactly. I help coach my kids 10yr basketball team. We were in OT last week w/ 8sec left and inbounding. I call a timeout and tell the team - just inbound the ball, dribble a few times and run out the clock as the team can’t press at that age level. Some people were pissed -they’re losers with a whiner attitude.
.

Its possible you are nuts. You can be a competitor and want to follow the spirit of the rules.

[pbmax]

I find it instructive that dumping the malcontents did not improve the team's performance.

But dumping the coach did.

That is the lesson of 2018.

[Fosco33]

Its possible you are nuts. You can be a competitor and want to follow the spirit of the rules.

Play to win... it’s simple. It’s like missing a free throw and trying to get the rebound.

Is kneeling out the clock in last 2 min or clocking the ball to stop it bad? Jeesh

[pbmax]

Play to win... it’s simple. It’s like missing a free throw and trying to get the rebound.

Is kneeling out the clock in last 2 min or clocking the ball to stop it bad? Jeesh

I have no idea what the expectations are for the youth league you are coaching in. Sounds like some parents expected the play to continue as per normal.

And sure, kneeling under two minutes in victory formation is what everyone expects. What they don't expect is for Greg Schiano to send the D line and linebackers crashing into the O line. Even Belichick doesn't do that. He's just videotaping you.

[red]

A number of articles have come out this offseason about the culture of the Packers.



nice that writers are finally stepping up now

the problem has been obvious for YEARS!!!!!!!

if the beat writers would have taken the team cock out of its mouth and spoke up on the problem earlier, we might not be in this mess right now, we wouldn't have wasted the last few season, and our HOF QB might not have been allowed to have his head grow bigger then the stadium

[red]

Sitton was blasting the offenses' predictability in public.



so sitton was let go because he pointed out what most of us could see, but the team didn't want to do anything about?

[pbmax]

nice that writers are finally stepping up now

the problem has been obvious for YEARS!!!!!!!

if the beat writers would have taken the team cock out of its mouth and spoke up on the problem earlier, we might not be in this mess right now, we wouldn't have wasted the last few season, and our HOF QB might not have been allowed to have his head grow bigger then the stadium

Players have to do the talking. You had beat guys covering the companies of Twitter scouts and tape eaters that the offense was stale and predictable.

You can only take a point so far without a source.

[ThunderDan]

I have no idea what the expectations are for the youth league you are coaching in. Sounds like some parents expected the play to continue as per normal.

And sure, kneeling under two minutes in victory formation is what everyone expects. What they don't expect is for Greg Schiano to send the D line and linebackers crashing into the O line. Even Belichick doesn't do that. He's just videotaping you.

I think it depends on the league. Summer Little League for my sons 10U team is cut throat win at all costs. Best players pitch and catch and play infield.
Fall League is the "teaching" season. Everyone plays every position. If the pitcher is having a bad day he stays in until the inning is over. You can only score 7 runs in an inning. Teams aren't drafted, you can request friends to be on your team.

[pbmax]

so sitton was let go because he pointed out what most of us could see, but the team didn't want to do anything about?

I don't remember all the reporting, but he said something in the previous year (not sure if in season or off season interview before the camp he was traded).

It was so notable that I am not sure we covered it here. I didn't remember it. There was a lot of speculation that something else must be happening, but nothing was even verified.

[pbmax]

I think it depends on the league. Summer Little League for my sons 10U team is cut throat win at all costs. Best players pitch and catch and play infield.
Fall League is the "teaching" season. Everyone plays every position. If the pitcher is having a bad day he stays in until the inning is over. You can only score 7 runs in an inning. Teams aren't drafted, you can request friends to be on your team.

Precisely. So Fosco might have a mismatch between the league and parents expectations. Its important to talk about that and not call them whiners. Affects everybody negatively. There has to be a way to describe the expectations for everyone.

Leagues where everyone gets to play are important especially with young children. Lots of developmental studies show great benefit to low pressure sports leagues that do their best to include all kids. Weeding kids out at a young age deprives everyone of the benefit of sports.

[Fosco33]

Precisely. So Fosco might have a mismatch between the league and parents expectations. Its important to talk about that and not call them whiners. Affects everybody negatively. There has to be a way to describe the expectations for everyone.

Leagues where everyone gets to play are important especially with young children. Lots of developmental studies show great benefit to low pressure sports leagues that do their best to include all kids. Weeding kids out at a young age deprives everyone of the benefit of sports.

It’s a chill league. Everyone plays, etc. and heck- 8seconds, undefended they are pretty likely to double dribble and travel anyways.
We were up 10 last week and couldn’t defend past the 3pt line either. So it’s just a rule.

I’d say the whiner concept isn’t specifally at those parents. It’s just people in general. It’s a game - and while it’s instructional - one of the things that matters is play to win (and be humble, don’t bitch when you lose, try your best). A couple weeks ago we got housed by 25 points. No biggie. I told them when i was in 5th grade parochial league we got beat 76-9... next year we beat that same team.

[gbgary]

I find it instructive that dumping the malcontents did not improve the team's performance.

But dumping the coach did.

That is the lesson of 2018.

the damage was already done and the biggest malcontent was given a huge raise.

[Rutnstrut]

I say look no further than Rodgers. People tend to perform at the level they are pushed to, no matter how competitive they are. Stubby stopped challenging and pushing Rodgers years ago.

[Fosco33]

I say look no further than Rodgers. People tend to perform at the level they are pushed to, no matter how competitive they are. Stubby stopped challenging and pushing Rodgers years ago.
That’s the difference. Management is pushing people to a certain level. Leadership is creating an environment where you don’t need to push. It’s influence and motivation.

I think we need Arod to be a better leader. And we need a few at every level of the team, coaches and org. Real leaders - like Reggie...

[pbmax]

That’s the difference. Management is pushing people to a certain level. Leadership is creating an environment where you don’t need to push. It’s influence and motivation.

I think we need Arod to be a better leader. And we need a few at every level of the team, coaches and org. Real leaders - like Reggie...

Well Reggie needed to have a few more talks with Gabe Wilkins then. What makes you think Reggie was a leader more than his teammate Butler?

Rodgers has pushed and prodded his offensive teammates (publicly anyway, we can't know private conversations) at a higher rate recently than Favre. There was just no way that the three rookie receivers were going to master both McCarthy's offense and Rodgers offense in year 1. Rodgers has regularly pushed for the best and most talented (Adams and Graham this year) to get recognition and extra use. What is it that they are supposedly missing from him?

You want a leadership crisis, that is a HC who is completely in charge of an offense that has been sorted out by defenses and refusing to change until publicly challenged by his QB. That was a failure of leadership.

[Fosco33]

Well Reggie needed to have a few more talks with Gabe Wilkins then. What makes you think Reggie was a leader more than his teammate Butler?

Rodgers has pushed and prodded his offensive teammates (publicly anyway, we can't know private conversations) at a higher rate recently than Favre. There was just no way that the three rookie receivers were going to master both McCarthy's offense and Rodgers offense in year 1. Rodgers has regularly pushed for the best and most talented (Adams and Graham this year) to get recognition and extra use. What is it that they are supposedly missing from him?

You want a leadership crisis, that is a HC who is completely in charge of an offense that has been sorted out by defenses and refusing to change until publicly challenged by his QB. That was a failure of leadership.
Qb, LT/C, DE, MLB and S all have to decent leaders and at least one strong on each side. They make so many adjustments and communicate clearly.

[pbmax]

Qb, LT/C, DE, MLB and S all have to decent leaders and at least one strong on each side. They make so many adjustments and communicate clearly.

I think we are confusing talent, knowledge and leadership. They are not the same.

AJ Hawk was a leader and knowledgeable about the defense. He was also terrible his last few years and needed to be replaced.

Tramontana got everyone lined up OK, but he is not a safety.

[Fosco33]

I think we are confusing talent, knowledge and leadership. They are not the same.

AJ Hawk was a leader and knowledgeable about the defense. He was also terrible his last few years and needed to be replaced.

Tramontana got everyone lined up OK, but he is not a safety.

Talent is presumed - it’s the ticket to play.
Knowledge is gained through experience and from coaches.
Leadership is the X factor.

[ZachMN]

The words of Herb Brooks:

'Gentlemen you don't have enough talent to win on talent alone'

Mario LeMieux took off to the next level after playing on the Canada Cup in 1987 after watching Gretzky and Messier OUTWORKING EVERYONE in practice- he learned what it took...his own words were to the effect of ' these were the best players in the world and they OUTWORKED EVERYONE....after watching that I knew what it took to be the best'


I trust my eyes and when I see this team come out FLAT over and over and over well something is wrong...maybe guys think the all star qb will bail them out and they can just coast.......

[pbmax]

Talent is presumed - it’s the ticket to play.
Knowledge is gained through experience and from coaches.
Leadership is the X factor.

This still doesn't explain why the safety needs to be the leader?

[pbmax]

The words of Herb Brooks:

'Gentlemen you don't have enough talent to win on talent alone'

Mario LeMieux took off to the next level after playing on the Canada Cup in 1987 after watching Gretzky and Messier OUTWORKING EVERYONE in practice- he learned what it took...his own words were to the effect of ' these were the best players in the world and they OUTWORKED EVERYONE....after watching that I knew what it took to be the best'


I trust my eyes and when I see this team come out FLAT over and over and over well something is wrong...maybe guys think the all star qb will bail them out and they can just coast.......

I think this is true from a first principle perspective, but also has downstream effects. The re-imagining of the offense was delayed by Rodgers ability to mask scheme deficiencies for an extra two years at least.

I don't like to call this effect "flat" or anything else, as I think its mostly a result of game trend (winning or losing) and talent.

[Fosco33]

This still doesn't explain why the safety needs to be the leader?

Not the leader - a leader. Look at great defenses over the years and often a good safety was there. It’s the qb of thee D.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

As head coach of the Appleton Applejacks peewee football team, I always play certain kids at certain positions. For example, my QBs are always white; My corners are always black. Up 40 in the 4th quarter, I refuse to show mercy to the opponent - I have the kids run up the score. Fuck sportsmanship.

Snowflake parents despise my methods. I tell them that they will thank me when their kids are adults. I’m merely preparing the kids for life in this fishy world. The fishmonger never gets complacent. The fishmonger does not preach mercy. The fishmonger makes a profit of 10 billion frogskins this year, he cuts workers ruthlessly to earn 20 billion the next year.

Life in this fishy world does not favor the weak and the meek. To paraphrase Freddie Mercury, this is the world we created - fuck the hungry mouths, the sufferings, the lonely faces.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Btw, during the season, I mentioned that McCarthy was never a fan of accountability, and therefore he refused to preach it. Rand and Pbmax called me a burger-flipping loser.

[pbmax]

Not the leader - a leader. Look at great defenses over the years and often a good safety was there. It’s the qb of thee D.

So AJ Hawk and Tramontana are the leadership parts of a winning defense?

C’mon. You are taking something ineffable from our perspective and elevating it to most important status.

You need talent.

[pbmax]

I say look no further than Rodgers. People tend to perform at the level they are pushed to, no matter how competitive they are. Stubby stopped challenging and pushing Rodgers years ago.

Rodgers single handedly took the team to the NFC Championship game in 2016.

So his leadership vaccum started after that?

[Rutnstrut]

So AJ Hawk and Tramontana are the leadership parts of a winning defense?

C’mon. You are taking something ineffable from our perspective and elevating it to most important status.

You need talent.




Talent alone doesn't mean much. I'll take work hard players with heart any day over divas with talent.

[pbmax]

Talent alone doesn't mean much. I'll take work hard players with heart any day over divas with talent.

Hard working players without talent get you a 28th ranked defense.

[Fosco33]

So AJ Hawk and Tramontana are the leadership parts of a winning defense?

C’mon. You are taking something ineffable from our perspective and elevating it to most important status.

You need talent.

Nope. I said Talent is the ticket to play (foundational). It’s like CM3 - he lost it. I don’t care if he’s hardworking or maybe an avg locker room vet - he’s more of a liability.

And man - I never called out Hawk as the example...

[pbmax]

Nope. I said Talent is the ticket to play (foundational). It’s like CM3 - he lost it. I don’t care if he’s hardworking or maybe an avg locker room vet - he’s more of a liability.

And man - I never called out Hawk as the example...

OK. But you still can't separate out talent from leadership in these threads. Its an assertion without a case for itself beyond the obvious -- would prefer to have it rather than lack it.

This thread (and the "Is Rodgers even good anymore" thread) has a lot of assertions that the Packers lack leaders. But what is much more obvious to me is that the Packers lack talent at some key positions (including safety).

Leadership is SO hard to quantify precisely because of the Tramontana and Hawk problem. Or what we might call the Hardy Nickerson or Seth Joyner problem. The press starts to pickup leadership stories exactly when a players skills start to decline. And calling out defensive adjustments isn't really the same as leadership. Its smart necessary preparation and execution, but it doesn't always translate to other players.