Silverstein: Critics Go After Packers New Structure

[pbmax]

Six paragraphs in and it’s doubled my concern for the team. Murphy’s first quote is in the running for dumbest thing I have read an executive say this decade.

https://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2019/05/09/silverstein-critics-see-cracks-green-bay-packers-new-management-structure/1142267001/


Asked about that, Murphy said any questions about Ball’s responsibilities or performance are born of jealousies that exist over how the front office shook out.

Trashing former employees is a sure sign you are out of arguments for your decisions. It’s a paraphrase, so maybe Spoon is being hard on Murphy, but given his interviews about the new structure, I think he thinks he’s a genius in the making.

[Radagast]

Olivia Reiner was the most interesting part of the video. I'd like to see more of her. :roll:

[Bretsky]

FIRST OFF, THANKS FOR POSTING PB; GREAT ARTICLE and after reading it twice my faith in our next structure and Marcia Marcia Marcia has decreased even more.

I had suspected from other misc readings and MM's reaction to Ball as the GM (which was not proven but for the most part everybody was reporting it) that Ball was pretty much blowing Marcia and was an egomaniac corporate climber that rubbed many the wrong way. I also thought all along Marcia wanted to hire him as an all powerful GM. And when MM showed some stones and fought the idea, part of the f'cked up solution was this triangular structure giving Ball more power then he should have and letting Douchebag Marcia have power over everything. No surprise that Gooter may have thought he was interviewing for TT's job with full control and may have been surprised with the new structure.

So my unsupported view all along has more legs, and the connection between Ball and Marcia could lead to plenty of chaos and overall, this is just a F'CKED UP STRUCTURE.

And that's not even noting most of our personnell talent now resides in Cleveland :((((

[Bretsky]

Six paragraphs in and it’s doubled my concern for the team. Murphy’s first quote is in the running for dumbest thing I have read an executive say this decade.

https://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2019/05/09/silverstein-critics-see-cracks-green-bay-packers-new-management-structure/1142267001/



Trashing former employees is a sure sign you are out of arguments for your decisions. It’s a paraphrase, so maybe Spoon is being hard on Murphy, but given his interviews about the new structure, I think he thinks he’s a genius in the making.


It further points out the huge ego and arrogance of Marcia. I think the whole article spoke very poorly of Marcia

[Patler]

Wow! An awful lot of over-reaction, in my opinion.

No reason at all that the current structure can't work, providing the individuals in the various positions are good at their jobs. Any structure can work if the individuals are good and work toward the common goal.

McCarthy made a power play, and it blew up in his face. The only thing that was going to save his job was a very deep playoff run. My biggest concern is if his play actually did influence Murphy's decision. I'm not convinced that it did, but I'm also not sure that it did not.

My thoughts on the three heads of the "monster"

Ball - It seems clear he is good at his job. Beyond that, we know nothing about him. Allegations that he is an insufferable corporate climber aren't verified by his work history, which appears more as a steady, not particularly rapid growth. Certainly nothing like Eliot Wolf's ascension. Accusations from departed employees who may have been passed over or otherwise disappointed don't mean much to me.

LaFleur - Interesting hire, but my feelings are much like when McCarthy was hired. When I heard, I basically said, "Who?". I knew nothing about him, but am certainly willing to be open minded about it. A slow start will not surprise or disappoint me.

Gutekunst - My biggest concern at this point. I like that he has been aggressive, but I have concerns about his decisions. I will break down the decisions that concern me:
Randall - may have given away a talented player for nothing. I understand Randall may have had to go, but so far the return has not been good. But, I haven't given up on Kizer yet.
Graham - signed and now retained on a "difference maker contract, and so far Graham has been anything but that. Highest paid TE on a per season basis.
Smith & Smith - 8th and 18th highest paid edge rushers on a per season basis. Again, paid to be difference makers. I think they will be good players, not sure they won't be overpaid. Hopefully, it works out.
Turner - on a per season basis the 7th highest LG, 9th highest RT, 13th highest RG contract. In his sixth season, but has started just 25 games. Started 12 for Miami in 2015, but they released him in 2016. Started 11 for Denver last year, but they didn't step up to retain him. Again, too much $?????
2018 draft - I like Alexander, but lots of ques.tions on the others. Could be a one-man draft. Does Jackson have a position? He didn't show a lot last year Was Burks worth a 3rd? Showed nothing last year. Will at least one of the WRs step up? I think at least one will. Bradley and Scott were both inconsistent and have yet to prove they are long term answers. I'm not sure Bradley will last this year. He had a poor (but not disastrous) snap just about every game last year.

[pbmax]

There is a very Brownsian and Wolfian tinge to the comments. Silverstein states plainly that Wolf the Older is no longer on speaking terms with Murphy and it could all be coming from that camp. Wolf has spoken about not ever coming back to day to day football unless he gets a stake, and those comments are years old. But perhaps he is eyeing the Exec Committee.

But it reinforces my concerns in three ways:

1. Lack of support for the core mission: Something spooked ST Coach Rizzi and even Murphy's spin seems to indicate they offered him less that he was seeking after LaFleur agreed to his terms prior to scheduling an interview. This could be the HC who thought control over the coaching staff also meant unlimited budget and no one else chiming in. He may have misjudged. But the result is you end up with a lesser candidate after deciding it was in your budget. Unforced error. You hire a first time coach and you should make it as easy as possible for them. Once again, when it came time to support a coach, they just mucked it up.

2. Silos: As the coach search may have demonstarted, not having clear lines of authority makes could make things difficult. Who was in charge of approving coaching contracts? When Capers had a set price, everyone went to Thompson to make the case. Who did they need to convince this time? Could the other silos muck this up? Was budget the primary consideration? Did anyone tell La Fleur, the first time coach?

3. McCarthyism: This system exists because the coach, on a then 2 year deal, wanted Free Agents. Why does this system exist now? Murphy said at on point a dozen other teams were set up like this, but other than Pittsburgh, which is imploding, I don't remember being impressed with the list.

[Fritz]

There is a very Brownsian and Wolfian tinge to the comments. Silverstein states plainly that Wolf the Older is no longer on speaking terms with Murphy and it could all be coming from that camp. Wolf has spoken about not ever coming back to day to day football unless he gets a stake, and those comments are years old. But perhaps he is eyeing the Exec Committee.

But it reinforces my concerns in three ways:

1. Lack of support for the core mission: Something spooked ST Coach Rizzi and even Murphy's spin seems to indicate they offered him less that he was seeking after LaFleur agreed to his terms prior to scheduling an interview. This could be the HC who thought control over the coaching staff also meant unlimited budget and no one else chiming in. He may have misjudged. But the result is you end up with a lesser candidate after deciding it was in your budget. Unforced error. You hire a first time coach and you should make it as easy as possible for them. Once again, when it came time to support a coach, they just mucked it up.

2. Silos: As the coach search may have demonstarted, not having clear lines of authority makes could make things difficult. Who was in charge of approving coaching contracts? When Capers had a set price, everyone went to Thompson to make the case. Who did they need to convince this time? Could the other silos muck this up? Was budget the primary consideration? Did anyone tell La Fleur, the first time coach?

3. McCarthyism: This system exists because the coach, on a then 2 year deal, wanted Free Agents. Why does this system exist now? Murphy said at on point a dozen other teams were set up like this, but other than Pittsburgh, which is imploding, I don't remember being impressed with the list.


https://media.tenor.com/images/1f12bab0f9c0031611bc352a7645ae80/raw

[QBME]

It is was it is. Nothing is going to fundamentally change.
Wring your hands, beat your brow's.
Nothing is structurally going to change.

[RashanGary]

I think the setup is fine. Murphy needs a super bowl though. But he might as well do what he thinks is right regardless of what either Wolf or McCarthy think of it. I credit him for taking control of the situation. Everyone will shut up if the Pack win a SB soon. Let’s let Murphy shoot his shot. See what he’s got.

[RashanGary]

Gutey seems like a really confident GM, honestly. Let’s hope Lafleur pans out. It’s really just wait and see.

[pbmax]

Silverstein
Not a single member of the Cleveland Browns organization was interviewed for my story other than Wolf telling me when he left that he didn't want to talk about his departure.

So much for that theory.

[Bretsky]

Silverstein
Not a single member of the Cleveland Browns organization was interviewed for my story other than Wolf telling me when he left that he didn't want to talk about his departure.

So much for that theory.

Not a surprise

I was listening to ESPN 1070 interview Silverstein and another Packer Beat Writer. A couple observations


1. It's absolutely Mind Blowing to think Gootey thought he was interviewing for TT's old position but when offered the job he found out about the new structure

2. Sounds like the interviewing team decided as a group to head to bed and reconvene the next day and most likely bring Matty Ice back for a second interview but Marcia decided to just hire him w/o executing that plan

3. Marcia was going to the press conference by himself to introduce Matty Ice as the head coach. Gootey was added to the press conference at the last minute because GB thought it would be good for him to be seated there and part of it

4. It's mind blowing the GB was going to hire an elite Special Teams coach, and then Marcia offered him less that he was told he was being offered as a salary and he left GB without a job. Sounds like we then tried to offer more and Marcia Marcia Marcia looked like an incompetent schmuck when it was all said and done

5. Gootey comes off as a down to earth mellow guy who is a good human being.
Marcia comes off as a power hungry egomaniac who some have questions about
Russ Ball comes accross as an unappreciative asskissing political climber

Who knows which part of this is accurate. But to me all of it is concerning.

And as Patler noted all of this might work great. But shame on the Packers for letting Marcia change the organizational structure from one that brought us two SuperBowls to a show that resembles the Jerry Jones like Dallas Structure

[Bretsky]

https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2019/05/10/mark-murphy-changes-packers-power-structure-timeline-events/1168248001/

[pbmax]

Its going to have to work quickly because I sense the Murphy did not run this by the Executive Committee and did this on the fly. So he did not waltz into this with a plan and backing.

Three silos is just 3x1 opportunities for leaks to the public, so its going to play out much differently than Ted World. Scoops McGinn might have left 2 years too early.

[red]

starting to sounds like it was murphy going for the power grab

this whole thing is sounding like the exact shit show that i figured its been for awhile now

[Joemailman]

If LaFleur is a good head coach, the new structure will work just fine. If he isn't, it won't.

[red]

If LaFleur is a good head coach, the new structure will work just fine. If he isn't, it won't.

if he isn't a good head coach will murphy have the stones to make an immediate move, or will he wait a few years too long like he did with TT, fat mike and capers?

cause we know out GM and head of football operations or whatever the hell ball and gute are, don't have the ability to make the move

[RashanGary]

Guess I’m one of the few who like it, in concept. Both Murphy and Ball seem to be sharp, qualified, driven men who are talented in communication and administration. Who better to be involved in directing football operations.

Gutekunst has complete control over the roster. He’s qualified for that position and will have so much extra time to focus on winning football games if he’s not dealing with vacation requests from the field crew or medical staff among other tedious behind the scenes bullshit. Ball already did all of that for TT anyway. It’s just not Gutes worry. That’s a good thing if you ask me.

McCarthy seemed to have such a choke hold on the Packers with his dominating personality. I think Murphy set out to put a stop to that. So he had the coach answer to him. Whether Lafleur answers to Gute or Murphy, it’s not much of a thing.


Murphy is a little more hands on in football operations than Harlan. But Murphy at one point was aspiring to be a GM so that’s not surprising. It’s not like he’s picking Gutes players. That would be a huge concern. But since Gute still has complete control over the roster and Lafleur complete control over coaching, I don’t see how this does anything other than allow our guys to do what they do best and leave administration in the hands of accomplished administrators.

[RashanGary]

This draft had a great feel, honestly. Gutey seemed so much better prepared than Ted did. He seemed to really know every player he picked. Just seemed like not being bogged down with field crew bull shit allowed him to be dialed the fuck in on the draft. I like that. And he seemed dialed in on FA too. He picked good, young, ascending players. 4 of them. Gute seemed dialed in on building the roster. I liked TT a lot. Gutey seems cockier so I don’t like that, but I think Gute has a chance at being a HOF GM some day. He’s just dialed in. And Murphy said one day, at the end of the day it’s Gutekunts intuition that makes the final pick. Sounds like he has a reputation for having a reliable instinct so they just ride with his gut.

Alexander is proof of that being solid.

Let’s see how this shakes out. I’m not overly impressed with Lafleur. McCarthy really controlled a room. But MM was getting so cocky and overbearing. I hated the Clay Matthews pick and dude ended up with 85 sacks. Sometimes I just don’t know shit. Maybe Lafleur is alright. AR is gonna love having new ideas to play with.

[RashanGary]

Gute also seems more willing to take these weirdo big glasses millennial types. TT never drafted them. But most millennials are dip shit looking, weirdo ass, drew carey looking mother fuckers. So we might as well open our minds to having them on our team. Not everyone is a jordy Nelson farm boy or Kenny Clark, raises his brothers and sisters serious kid.

Put me in the camp that sees Gute as a star GM and the Packers being on the verge of another SB because of it. Building the roster is the most important aspect to winning football games IMO and we have a structure that promotes roster building. So we’re OK!

[pbmax]

Guess I’m one of the few who like it, in concept. Both Murphy and Ball seem to be sharp, qualified, driven men who are talented in communication and administration.

What has given you an indication that Ball is talented at communication?

[red]

Guess I’m one of the few who like it, in concept. Both Murphy and Ball seem to be sharp, qualified, driven men who are talented in communication and administration. Who better to be involved in directing football operations.

Gutekunst has complete control over the roster. He’s qualified for that position and will have so much extra time to focus on winning football games if he’s not dealing with vacation requests from the field crew or medical staff among other tedious behind the scenes bullshit. Ball already did all of that for TT anyway. It’s just not Gutes worry. That’s a good thing if you ask me.

McCarthy seemed to have such a choke hold on the Packers with his dominating personality. I think Murphy set out to put a stop to that. So he had the coach answer to him. Whether Lafleur answers to Gute or Murphy, it’s not much of a thing.


Murphy is a little more hands on in football operations than Harlan. But Murphy at one point was aspiring to be a GM so that’s not surprising. It’s not like he’s picking Gutes players. That would be a huge concern. But since Gute still has complete control over the roster and Lafleur complete control over coaching, I don’t see how this does anything other than allow our guys to do what they do best and leave administration in the hands of accomplished administrators.

Is murphy letting the kid have his own staff?

They told him that Pettine would be his DC, and they didn’t get the guy he wanted for ST, or the second guy he wanted

Sure seems like he doesn’t have total control over his staff

In fact I think that’s exactly why they picked a guy so young, with so little experience that no one else wanted. They could tell him how things would be

[RashanGary]

Is murphy letting the kid have his own staff?

They told him that Pettine would be his DCe

I don’t know if this is true. I think lafleur was open to it tho.

[RashanGary]

I think Gutey has the best job in football, honestly. He gets paid a lot of money. He has complete autonomy on the Packers draft and roster. He doesn’t have to deal with the behind the scenes operation so he can still be a dad and husband for big parts of the year.

Lafleur wanted Pettine was my underarnding. That probably is a part of the reason he was hired. I think the packers had open minded interviews and didn’t force anything, but lafleaur wanting to keep pettine gave Lafleur an edge because then we don’t have to start over on defense.

[Joemailman]

I think Gutey has the best job in football, honestly. He gets paid a lot of money. He has complete autonomy on the Packers draft and roster. He doesn’t have to deal with the behind the scenes operation so he can still be a dad and husband for big parts of the year.

Lafleur wanted Pettine was my underarnding. That probably is a part of the reason he was hired. I think the packers had open minded interviews and didn’t force anything, but lafleaur wanting to keep pettine gave Lafleur an edge because then we don’t have to start over on defense.

I agree. Gutey gets to focus on what he knows best - player personnel. He had input on the head coach hire, but it's Murphy's problem of it doesn't work. The "Sky Is Falling Because The Structure Changed" crowd sees problems everywhere, but it may well be that Murphy had the foresight and guts to change a structure that wasn't working as well as it once had. Sticking with the status quo because "We've always done it that way" can be death for an organization.

[pbmax]

I agree. Gutey gets to focus on what he knows best - player personnel. He had input on the head coach hire, but it's Murphy's problem of it doesn't work. The "Sky Is Falling Because The Structure Changed" crowd sees problems everywhere, but it may well be that Murphy had the foresight and guts to change a structure that wasn't working as well as it once had. Sticking with the status quo because "We've always done it that way" can be death for an organization.

If I had to bet who knows how to run the superstructure (football and business) of a professional football operation, I would take Ball first, then Murphy.

But I really don't want either with much influence on the football side.

The disappointment is that with the new structure (Murphy) or not (Gute) they still failed to land a first choice position coach. Or the second choice. This doesn't look to me like improvement.

[RashanGary]

I think Ball and Murphy are both excellent in the business side of the Packers. It frees Gutey up to scout endlessly and train the new scouts. Frees Lafleur up to coach. And having pettine, that frees Lafleur up even more to focus on offense.

Honestly, the more I look at it the more I think the Packers have an excellent situation for football guys to focus on football. Gutey doesn’t need to worry about the field or the equipment or the game day staff and medical staff. Ball can handle the non football side of football operations while Gutey spends all of his time on knowing every player in the NFL and college football so when time comes he can get the right players.

[pbmax]

There is a problem here with terms, and I will have to go back to the article and maybe the 2 part Ball article from a year or two ago to see if it reveals any details. But business operations are different and distinct from football operations.

Ball came up on the football only side. He did run some football operations for Ted, and these did increase as time passed, but we are talking booking hotel rooms, meetings, scheduling, transportation and facilities. I don't think he is running the real estate side of the operation.

Gute doesn't have a background in any of this. Nor on the business side.

But I do think Ball had gotten the stamp of approval from Murphy and Ted and he had some projects on the business operations side. I think this was covered in that two parter.

Murphy has never run or really overseen the pro football side of the operation.

[Bretsky]

I hav no idea if ball is an effective communicator because he never says a thing. Based on how Murphy f’cked up the special teams situation, went about the hc hiring as well as the gm job switch there are captain obvious reasons for plenty of concern

[texaspackerbacker]

I think Ball and Murphy are both excellent in the business side of the Packers. It frees Gutey up to scout endlessly and train the new scouts. Frees Lafleur up to coach. And having pettine, that frees Lafleur up even more to focus on offense.

Honestly, the more I look at it the more I think the Packers have an excellent situation for football guys to focus on football. Gutey doesn’t need to worry about the field or the equipment or the game day staff and medical staff. Ball can handle the non football side of football operations while Gutey spends all of his time on knowing every player in the NFL and college football so when time comes he can get the right players.

I like your positive outlook on things. Airing potentially dirty laundry and stirring up trouble - as media assholes in sports and out are prone to do - is a shitty way to spend the off-season.

[Teamcheez1]

Complaining about the Packers management structure is the pot calling the kettle black.

The very structure of an owner with zero football experience for the most part, meddling in the daily affairs of their team is the definition of dysfunctional.

[RashanGary]

There is a problem here with terms, and I will have to go back to the article and maybe the 2 part Ball article from a year or two ago to see if it reveals any details. But business operations are different and distinct from football operations.




There are some football operations that don’t have much to do with acquiring or coaching or developing players though. Thompson, Gute, McCarthy, Lafleaur.... all guys who are qualified to acquire or coach players. But there were other responsibilities to Teds job like medical and field crews and finance and things that I would consider more of a business operation than a talent in acquiring players and or coaching them. I call it non football, football operations.

I like this setup because it gives Gute complete autonomy over the thing he has talent, experience and knack at while taking away distractive reaponsibilities like vacation time for the field crew or benefits packages for the medical team. Gute can focus on player acquisition. He’s setup for success. And ball does the rest.

[RashanGary]

I think it’s a better setup and the right setup for winning games. Now Murphy needs the guys he picked to win or it’s his ass on the line. And credit to Murphy for taking charge and making himself the accountable person. Whether he succeeds for fails, I respect his bold approach. You only get one shot. Better shoot that shot or live in regret. He took his shot. Let’s see how it goes.

[RashanGary]

I think Murphy is on to something in a few ways actually. Ted Thompson is one of the most respected scouts of the last couple generations. He has talent and determination. But he didn’t strike me as an authoritarian or administration type. By switching the structure it allows the Packers to always keep one of the leagues best scouts as GM because he won’t be overloaded with garbage that has nothing to do with his expertise. I’d rather have an elite scout than and administrator acquiring players and making those calls. It really gives the Packers the ability to keep a true elite scout as GM instead of having to find a balance of administration and scouting.

[Bretsky]

I think it’s a better setup and the right setup for winning games. Now Murphy needs the guys he picked to win or it’s his ass on the line. And credit to Murphy for taking charge and making himself the accountable person. Whether he succeeds for fails, I respect his bold approach. You only get one shot. Better shoot that shot or live in regret. He took his shot. Let’s see how it goes.



It seems to me you are doing your best to argue against the system that Ted Thompson was in charge of and you had fully supported for the past several years. The one Bob Harlan implemented and the one that brought up two Super Bowls and a ton of wins under Ron Wolf and Ted Thompson.

[RashanGary]

It seems to me you are doing your best to argue against the system that Ted Thompson was in charge of and you had fully supported for the past several years. The one Bob Harlan implemented and the one that brought up two Super Bowls and a ton of wins under Ron Wolf and Ted Thompson.

Ron Wolf was good for that system. He knew who his good scouts were and could handle all of that extra responsibility well. Ted, more of a pure scout, wasn’t as good at the whole job.

The old system was good for a guy like Wolf, but the new system is good because it allows the most talented scout to be in charge of player personnel and not be bogged down with administration. It’s a better system if you want the most talented scout running the player personnel side of things. I think it will prove to be better overall because Gute is fully responsible for player acquisition and he’ll have more time to dial in on it than the old system.

This draft had a really good feel. Gute knew what he was doing. I could just feel it from him. Having less ancillary responsibilities make him a better player acquisition GM.

[Bretsky]

Ron Wolf was good for that system. He knew who his good scouts were and could handle all of that extra responsibility well. Ted, more of a pure scout, wasn’t as good at the whole job.

The old system was good for a guy like Wolf, but the new system is good because it allows the most talented scout to be in charge of player personnel and not be bogged down with administration. It’s a better system if you want the most talented scout running the player personnel side of things. I think it will prove to be better overall because Gute is fully responsible for player acquisition and he’ll have more time to dial in on it than the old system.

This draft had a really good feel. Gute knew what he was doing. I could just feel it from him. Having less ancillary responsibilities make him a better player acquisition GM.


I have no idea about this year's draft. Time will tell.

And while it's too early to just last year's draft, not many would argue it's a home run at this point.

[RashanGary]

I have a feeling this is the best draft we’ve had in a long time. Gute is so focused and dialed in. He’s making things happen. I hope he can find other Uber talented young scouts to come up the ranks too. He’ll have more time to teach and train them as they develop too. The whole thing sets Gute and his player acquisition team up for success.

[RashanGary]

I have no idea about this year's draft. Time will tell.

And while it's too early to just last year's draft, not many would argue it's a home run at this point.


Last year Gute was just dipping his toes in. I listened to his pressers. Dude seems dialed in this year.

[mraynrand]

I have a feeling this is the best draft we’ve had in a long time. Gute is so focused and dialed in. He’s making things happen. I hope he can find other Uber talented young scouts to come up the ranks too. He’ll have more time to teach and train them as they develop too. The whole thing sets Gute and his player acquisition team up for success.

Dude, you are a breath of fresh air. Love the optimism. We have the whole season to be negative if things go south. Plus, you make sense. The Packer scouting staff is pretty young, but they have some solid elder statesmen, including a guy they acquired recently from the 49ers system who I believe was responsible for a lot of the talent during the Hairball era.

[pbmax]

Complaining about the Packers management structure is the pot calling the kettle black.

The very structure of an owner with zero football experience for the most part, meddling in the daily affairs of their team is the definition of dysfunctional.

Disagree. Lack of a hobbyist in charge should be the source of a great competitive advantage. I'm just not sure its the same now.

[RashanGary]

Disagree. Lack of a hobbyist in charge should be the source of a great competitive advantage. I'm just not sure its the same now.

Bob Harlan didnt have the football background of Mark Murphy. It makes sense that Murphy feels more capable in the arena of football operations than his predecessor.

Wolf and Holmgren jockied for power in the mid 90s. Wolf came out on top. Wolf was a cagey old coot who wasn’t gonna back down to anyone. He was experienced and qualified as a personnel guy and at the same time a true alpha dude who was going to dominate the whole show. So he could keep the mutinies at bay and acquire talent at the same time.

Harlan hired the right guy and he did his thing.

Murphy is stepping forth. He’s passing Wolf or McCarthy or Holmgren. He’s saying, “I’m in charge.”

Instead of hiring a cagey, dominant old silverback to beat his chest as GM, he’s hiring the most talented scout and giving him autonomy over that one spot. Gutes not gonna have to fend off other gorillas. He just has to run his team of guys who already trust and respect him.

Mark Murphy isn’t coaching the team or picking draft picks.

He’s the alpha silverback handing out jobs though. Of course little Elliot Wolf and his daddy don’t like it because they wanted to run the show. Of course McCarthy doesn’t like it. He wanted to run the show. But really, who cares if they like it. At the end of the day, the questions that are really gonna matter are:

Can Gute build a roster?
Can Lafleur coach an offense and keep the ship on course?
Can pettine cosch the defense and work well with Lafleur?
Can Lafleur infuence Rodgers to be a little less stubborn?
Can Ball run the, behind the scenes (non roster and non coaching,) football operations?
Can Murphy be the alpha silverback that keeps everyone in their lane?

Murphy has stepped forth and defined each persons job. Anyone who doesn’t like it is going to have to take it up with Murphy. He’s setting the tone. Now let’s hope he picked the right guys for the jobs. I respect his aggression and approach either way. If he’s wrong we’ll just replace him and move on. But for now he’s established the order, as should a leader.

[pbmax]

Bob Harlan didnt have the football background of Mark Murphy. It makes sense that Murphy feels more capable in the arena of football operations than his predecessor.

What does playing safety have to do with being a team administrator? He's not coaching defense.

What does being a rep in the NFLPA have to do with being CEO? He's not negotiating contracts. He was AD at Colgate when the salary cap came around.

He isn't Ozzie Newsome. He's a less successful Willie Davis. Murphy's greatest outside resource? Charley Casserly for Pete Rozelle's sake.

Harlan had been with the Packers in an administrative capacity since 1971. Before he hired Wolf, he had 21 years experience with how pro football operates from the administrative side. He had seen the worst and through a process of elimination figured out how to fix it.

You keep insisting that Murphy has cleared the decks for Gute to concentrate on just being a scout or GM. Well, tell me, who makes the call on FA contracts? On second contracts? Gute doesn't, because the cap guy/contract negotiator don't report to him. That guy reports to Murphy. So does the coach. So you know who has final say on the roster? Murphy.

And that ain't good.

It will work until Ball or La Fleur decide its not in their interest to back Gute. And Ball wants Gute's job. La Fleur will need a fall guy during the first poor season or 4 game losing streak.

[pbmax]

Wolf and Holmgren jockied for power in the mid 90s. Wolf came out on top. Wolf was a cagey old coot who wasn’t gonna back down to anyone. He was experienced and qualified as a personnel guy and at the same time a true alpha dude who was going to dominate the whole show. So he could keep the mutinies at bay and acquire talent at the same time.


That jockeying for power, as I recall, went this way:

Holmgren: I would like to a chance at personnel.

Wolf: No.

Harlan: I gave Ron total control over football operations.

Holmgren: <<left the team>>

[pbmax]

Murphy is stepping forth. He’s passing Wolf or McCarthy or Holmgren. He’s saying, “I’m in charge.”

He is in charge and he isn't qualified to be in charge of football operations.

He is in charge and he is going to be breaking ties of the triumverant. Who he sides with will depend on who makes the best case to the judge and jury. Which is at least one crucial step removed from being the best football decision.

Its part time meddling.

[pbmax]

Instead of hiring a cagey, dominant old silverback to beat his chest as GM, he’s hiring the most talented scout and giving him autonomy over that one spot. Gutes not gonna have to fend off other gorillas. He just has to run his team of guys who already trust and respect him.

.

You have been watching too much Animal Planet or perhaps too many Matt Millen press conferences.

If Gute or Ball is the GM with total football control, it doesn't matter who thinks they are in charge. The GM has the final say.

As it is set up now. Murphy is going to have to portion out blame for poor performance. And that delays and confuses accountability.

[RashanGary]

You have been watching too much Animal Planet or perhaps too many Matt Millen press conferences.

If Gute or Ball is the GM with total football control, it doesn't matter who thinks they are in charge. The GM has the final say.

As it is set up now. Murphy is going to have to portion out blame for poor performance. And that delays and confuses accountability.

Murphy isn’t picking players or coaching them. Hes hiring people to do it and defining roles. Murphy has taken over the lead administrative role in football operations but is leaving the work to qualified people. Murphy is a capable administrator so I see benefits and clarity. I see Murphy as a better administrator than Wolf. Gutey might end up being a better lead scout. I like the change. Eliminates power struggles.

[RashanGary]

Gute is hired to build a roster
Lafleur is hired to coach the team
Ball is hired to keep the behind the scenes operations in sync

Murphy is responsible for defining who is in what role


Nothing meddling about it.

[gbgary]

i don't have a problem with the structure. some blame murphy for not getting involved sooner and are now saying he's too involved. you can't have it both ways. he's taking charge, delegating responsibilities, and overseeing. someone had to do it. by doing so he won't get blindsided again in the future. as long as ball stays in his lane i don't see a problem. hopefully ball gets weary and moves on. he's not a personnel guy as the few drafts he helped-out ted with illustrate. let him go fuck up someone else's team as a gm. murphy can then give gute more responsibilities, as he gets more experienced, and hire a new bean counter. i believe we can all thank mccarthy for issuing his ultimatum that he'd quit if ball was named gm.

[RashanGary]

i don't have a problem with the structure. some blame murphy for not getting involved sooner and are now saying he's too involved. you can't have it both ways. he's taking charge, delegating responsibilities, and overseeing. someone had to do it. by doing so he won't get blindsided again in the future. as long as ball stays in his lane i don't see a problem. hopefully ball gets weary and moves on. he's not a personnel guy as the few drafts he helped-out ted with illustrate. let him go fuck up someone else's team as a gm. murphy can then give gute more responsibilities, as he gets more experienced, and hire a new bean counter. i believe we can all thank mccarthy for issuing his ultimatum that he'd quit if ball was named gm.

I don’t see Ball as such a trouble piece. Maybe I’m wrong. I like Gute just focusing on the roster and having extra time and energy to develop and train his scouting team. I don’t know if I want him to be strapped with the non roster related football operations.

This structure seems solid for a while. If we got a new president, I imagine it might have to go back. But Murphy is in a spot to handle administration right now and Ball knows those ancillary football operations well, so this setup puts Gute and Lafleur in a good spot to dial in on winning football games.

[RashanGary]

I have strong intuition with peoples energies. I listened to gutekunst over the last couple years and I sense he’s dialed in right now. He seems driven and confident. He doesn’t seem overwhelmed. His scouting team seems dialed in and engaged. I get the general sense that, that group is on track to dominate. And I’m a big believer that the roster is the biggest factor in winning.

If I didn’t see Gutey so dialed in and in charge of his role in determining the roster, I would have a different viewpoint right now. But I see Murphy setting guys up for success in their jobs. I admire his administrative talent so far. I think Gute, Ball and Lafleur all trust him and are happy to work with him. Like I said, I like the feel. I’m a fan.

I think McCarthy and wolf are the guys bitching. They don’t like it because other guys got their jobs. Winning will make the squakers seem quieter.

[pbmax]

Murphy isn’t picking players or coaching them. Hes hiring people to do it and defining roles. Murphy has taken over the lead administrative role in football operations but is leaving the work to qualified people. Murphy is a capable administrator so I see benefits and clarity. I see Murphy as a better administrator than Wolf. Gutey might end up being a better lead scout. I like the change. Eliminates power struggles.

Who decides what offer the FA gets?

[pbmax]

Gute is hired to build a roster
Lafleur is hired to coach the team
Ball is hired to keep the behind the scenes operations in sync

Murphy is responsible for defining who is in what role

Nothing meddling about it.

Who decides about fifth year options?

Everything we have read is that Ball's portfolio has expanded. And he is still the contract guy. You are just whistling past the graveyard that Ted and Mark's favorite front office guy has a new title and expanded role. If not for McCarthy's power play, he is a GM with total authority. As it is, he got more money, a bigger role and more duties.

If McCarthy can want FA, so can LaFleur. Granted, this one will take some time.

Murphy admitted he will have to settle split decisions. The lines of authority can be as clear as you wish on paper but in the real world, they will come into conflict. And I don't want Murphy to make the calls.

[Joemailman]

Who decides about fifth year options?

Everything we have read is that Ball's portfolio has expanded. And he is still the contract guy. You are just whistling past the graveyard that Ted and Mark's favorite front office guy has a new title and expanded role. If not for McCarthy's power play, he is a GM with total authority. As it is, he got more money, a bigger role and more duties.

If McCarthy can want FA, so can LaFleur. Granted, this one will take some time.

Murphy admitted he will have to settle split decisions. The lines of authority can be as clear as you wish on paper but in the real world, they will come into conflict. And I don't want Murphy to make the calls.

So a CEO of a company (Murphy) gets input from his COO (Gutekunst) and his CFO (Ball) before making a decision he feels is in the best interest of the company. Crazy!

[gbgary]

So a CEO of a company (Murphy) gets input from his COO (Gutekunst) and his CFO (Ball) before making a decision he feels is in the best interest of the company. Crazy!

lol whodathunkit?

[Bretsky]

What does playing safety have to do with being a team administrator? He's not coaching defense.

What does being a rep in the NFLPA have to do with being CEO? He's not negotiating contracts. He was AD at Colgate when the salary cap came around.

He isn't Ozzie Newsome. He's a less successful Willie Davis. Murphy's greatest outside resource? Charley Casserly for Pete Rozelle's sake.

Harlan had been with the Packers in an administrative capacity since 1971. Before he hired Wolf, he had 21 years experience with how pro football operates from the administrative side. He had seen the worst and through a process of elimination figured out how to fix it.

You keep insisting that Murphy has cleared the decks for Gute to concentrate on just being a scout or GM. Well, tell me, who makes the call on FA contracts? On second contracts? Gute doesn't, because the cap guy/contract negotiator don't report to him. That guy reports to Murphy. So does the coach. So you know who has final say on the roster? Murphy.

And that ain't good.

It will work until Ball or La Fleur decide its not in their interest to back Gute. And Ball wants Gute's job. La Fleur will need a fall guy during the first poor season or 4 game losing streak.



:bclap::bclap::bclap::bclap::bclap:

[Bretsky]

So a CEO of a company (Murphy) gets input from his COO (Gutekunst) and his CFO (Ball) before making a decision he feels is in the best interest of the company. Crazy!



What is absolutely F'ckin crazy is Marcia being the CEO of a company, let alone one we cheer for.

Jerry Jones is more qualified

[Bretsky]

I have strong intuition with peoples energies. I listened to gutekunst over the last couple years and I sense he’s dialed in right now. He seems driven and confident. He doesn’t seem overwhelmed. His scouting team seems dialed in and engaged. I get the general sense that, that group is on track to dominate. And I’m a big believer that the roster is the biggest factor in winning.

If I didn’t see Gutey so dialed in and in charge of his role in determining the roster, I would have a different viewpoint right now. But I see Murphy setting guys up for success in their jobs. I admire his administrative talent so far. I think Gute, Ball and Lafleur all trust him and are happy to work with him. Like I said, I like the feel. I’m a fan.

I think McCarthy and wolf are the guys bitching. They don’t like it because other guys got their jobs. Winning will make the squakers seem quieter.



First off the writer refuted any claims that any of his sources came from the Browns. Gutey should be dialed in, but he's no more dialed in than any other GM in the game.

But it's pretty pathetic Gootie thought he was interviewing for job responsibilities different that those offered to him. And it should not surprise anybody if he had to step back and really decide if he wants to be a part of this.

And do know (cause I don't) if Marcia received the approval of the executive committee ahead of switching all of these authorities.


Boy I sure am glad he has all this experience. After all he was an AD in college

[Bretsky]

Murphy isn’t picking players or coaching them. Hes hiring people to do it and defining roles. Murphy has taken over the lead administrative role in football operations but is leaving the work to qualified people. Murphy is a capable administrator so I see benefits and clarity. I see Murphy as a better administrator than Wolf. Gutey might end up being a better lead scout. I like the change. Eliminates power struggles.


Murphy's qualifications are next to nothing as compared to Ron Wolf. Ditto for Bob Harlan.

Maybe you hate Ron Wolf because you've become the great cheerleader of Marcia Murphy and Wolf was a NFL personal expert who had success in a system opposite to what we now have.interview. Or maybe you think Ron Wolf could be a source for well thought out article questioning Marcia.

Most teams have a NFL football expert, such as Ron Wolf ot Ted Thompson overseeing and leading all operations. It's sensible and has proven to work.

The Dallas Cowboys buck that system with Jerry Jones. Green Bay is now following Jerry Jones.

[mraynrand]

You keep insisting that Murphy has cleared the decks for Gute to concentrate on just being a scout or GM. Well, tell me, who makes the call on FA contracts? On second contracts? Gute doesn't, because the cap guy/contract negotiator don't report to him. That guy reports to Murphy. So does the coach. So you know who has final say on the roster? Murphy.

And that ain't good.

It will work until Ball or La Fleur decide its not in their interest to back Gute. And Ball wants Gute's job. La Fleur will need a fall guy during the first poor season or 4 game losing streak.

Maybe they'll have regular meetings to work out these issues.

"Flower, you need this guy to win?" "Yup" "Gute, you agree." "Yup" "Ball, can we give him as much as he wants?" "No, we gotta bring him down 5 mil on his SB and 10 on guaranteed $$$." "OK, give that a shot." "You guys OK if we let him go if he doesn't budge?" "Yup. Yup. Yup." "How about halfway? "That'll work boss." "Great. Gosh I like this new system. I was sure we'd be sabotaging each other by now." "Have faith, Bossman."

[RashanGary]

Murphy's qualifications are next to nothing as compared to Ron Wolf. Ditto for Bob Harlan.

Maybe you hate Ron Wolf because you've become the great cheerleader of Marcia Murphy and Wolf was a NFL personal expert who had success in a system opposite to what we now have.interview. Or maybe you think Ron Wolf could be a source for well thought out article questioning Marcia.

Most teams have a NFL football expert, such as Ron Wolf ot Ted Thompson overseeing and leading all operations. It's sensible and has proven to work.

The Dallas Cowboys buck that system with Jerry Jones. Green Bay is now following Jerry Jones.

I don’t respect the way wolf has manipulated the media over the years, even after he left. That’s why he annoys me. He seems to use the media to pressure the Packers to promote his son. I’m impressed with Murphy for standing up to both McCarthys aggressive pressures and Wolfs sneaky pressure.

I understand people’s comparisons of Murphy to jerry Jones and the attempts to equate the structure change to micro managing. I disagree, but I do see how a person might see that.

Gute is doing what Gute does best. He looks invigorated and excited and so do his scouts.
Lafleur is coaching offense (qualified)
Pettine is coaching defense (qualified)
Ball is doing contracts and non roster ancillary football operations
Murphy is administrating all aspects of the Packers and settles disputes between high ranking officials

The whole thing looks like success to me, to be honest. I think you guys have it flat out misread. And I think winning will quiet all of this very shortly.

It’s a good setup with qualified people in all of the right spots. Lafleur is iffy to me but I’m curious to see it play out. Lots of different styles of personality win in the NFL

[RashanGary]

1. Murphy stood up to McCarthys attempts to dominate the organization.
2. He stood up to Ron Wolfs weird manipulation through the media the last couple years as he tried to seemingly pressure the Packers to give authority to his son.
3. He stood up to Favre when Favre tried to strong arm the Packers through the media.

He made the tough decision to relieve Thompson of his duty even though Thompson won a SB and was so dedicated and loyal.

He got downright bold by changing the structure of football operations to match his current administration talent.

The Packers are second winningest team of last 12 years. Cant say I’m anything but impressed with the job Murphy is doing, to be honest.

Emotion aside, this assertion is a joke. I can’t take it seriously and look forward to the Packers quieting this crowd like they have with the sad losers at soldier field the last 25 years.

[pbmax]

So a CEO of a company (Murphy) gets input from his COO (Gutekunst) and his CFO (Ball) before making a decision he feels is in the best interest of the company. Crazy!


lol whodathunkit?

Well, if any adjacent background can be GM, why didn't having a non-scout GM at tip of the hierarchy work in the 1970s and 1980s? I mean I am sure Bart and Forrest and Dan took counsel from the scouts and then made their own decision in the best interests of the Packers.

I mean, GM or GE usually hire their President and CEO straight from car clubs (https://www.mg3club.org), right?

Recording labels routinely hire former professional musicians who now teach music at a local university, right?

[pbmax]

First off the writer refuted any claims that any of his sources came from the Browns. Gutey should be dialed in, but he's no more dialed in than any other GM in the game.

But it's pretty pathetic Gootie thought he was interviewing for job responsibilities different that those offered to him. And it should not surprise anybody if he had to step back and really decide if he wants to be a part of this.

And do know (cause I don't) if Marcia received the approval of the executive committee ahead of switching all of these authorities.

Boy I sure am glad he has all this experience. After all he was an AD in college

I suspect Wolf got in there somehow, the source (could be Wolf himself) doesn't have to be currently working for the Browns to be backing Wolf or Son of Wolf.

[pbmax]

Murphy's qualifications are next to nothing as compared to Ron Wolf. Ditto for Bob Harlan.

Maybe you hate Ron Wolf because you've become the great cheerleader of Marcia Murphy and Wolf was a NFL personal expert who had success in a system opposite to what we now have.interview. Or maybe you think Ron Wolf could be a source for well thought out article questioning Marcia.

Most teams have a NFL football expert, such as Ron Wolf ot Ted Thompson overseeing and leading all operations. It's sensible and has proven to work.

The Dallas Cowboys buck that system with Jerry Jones. Green Bay is now following Jerry Jones.

The Jones thing worries me, but so does following the Steelers given their current shambolic state.

Murphy v Harlan: Murphy does have a track record in sports business admin; it was all in college, but still. He was 15 or so years in that career when he got poached. For the business side, I get the argument and his results so far seem good. The business environment has been good and Murphy has kept the Packers financially competitive, new revenue on the horizon and it has kept the rainy day fund growing.

But Harlan did not install himself at the top of the silos after he realized that splitting the coach and GM job between two people wasn't going to work.

That is the part I don't get. Murphy said, and I believe, that personnel and coaching weren't talking effectively, so he was going to ensure communication. But he has done so in a manner that makes him the final arbiter and removes those at the top from being reponsible for all their decisions.

[pbmax]

Maybe they'll have regular meetings to work out these issues.

"Flower, you need this guy to win?" "Yup" "Gute, you agree." "Yup" "Ball, can we give him as much as he wants?" "No, we gotta bring him down 5 mil on his SB and 10 on guaranteed $$$." "OK, give that a shot." "You guys OK if we let him go if he doesn't budge?" "Yup. Yup. Yup." "How about halfway? "That'll work boss." "Great. Gosh I like this new system. I was sure we'd be sabotaging each other by now." "Have faith, Bossman."

If they make the mistake of tape recording their meetings, I look forward to the book. :D

However with the Patriots in the League, I would recommend the cone of silence first.

The arrangement could work, they can all pull in the same direction. But there will always be disagreements and agendas. And Ball had the GM spot before the now fired coach threw a fit. If I was suspicious by nature, that would be the impetus behind Murphy playing referee.

[mraynrand]

Well, if any adjacent background can be GM, why didn't having a non-scout GM at tip of the hierarchy work in the 1970s and 1980s? I mean I am sure Bart and Forrest and Dan took counsel from the scouts and then made their own decision in the best interests of the Packers.

I mean, GM or GE usually hire their President and CEO straight from car clubs (https://www.mg3club.org), right?

Recording labels routinely hire former professional musicians who now teach music at a local university, right?

Murphy is not the GM.

And when Harlan was at the helm, I'm sure he exercised zero oversight of Wolf and just nodded his head to everything he did and said, including "Fart in the Wind."

[pbmax]

I don’t respect the way wolf has manipulated the media over the years, even after he left. That’s why he annoys me. He seems to use the media to pressure the

This I agree with. Wolf has been politicking for his son for quite a while and this is how he plays.

There is a reason he wanted the press to like him. So Murphy's complaint that this is all due to someone's beef that things did not work out for them more than likely has some truth to it.

[pbmax]

Murphy is not the GM.

And when Harlan was at the helm, I'm sure he exercised zero oversight of Wolf and just nodded his head to everything he did and said, including "Fart in the Wind."

But Murphy will have to play GM at some point when he doesn't get consensus. I think he did say Gute gets final word in roster decisions even if there are disputes, I hope that is true as a practical matter.

Actually, I am pretty sure Harlan was a rubber stamp on players and moves for Wolf, literally. They certainly haven't told any stories otherwise. And I agree that Wolf could have used more oversight. I still don't know why he quit other that to get out while the getting was good.

McCarthy needed to be challenged more too. But I am not sure Murphy at the top helps matters. If setup as he has indicated, he is basically an arbitration panel.

[mraynrand]

But Murphy will have to play GM at some point when he doesn't get consensus.

Of course - at some point he will have to mediate disagreements, much like Harlan did when he had to separate Sherman from his two duties. I think we may disagree in how much Murphy pushes his nose in the tent. I suspect he will do less tinkering and more mediation.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-NoYFPpnBOl4/Uq6CIZdxRlI/AAAAAAAAsA0/hB3I1RCCs7Q/s1600/TheSinatraGroup-SNL-1991.JPG

[pbmax]

Of course - at some point he will have to mediate disagreements, much like Harlan did when he had to separate Sherman from his two duties. I think we may disagree in how much Murphy pushes his nose in the tent. I suspect he will do less tinkering and more mediation.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-NoYFPpnBOl4/Uq6CIZdxRlI/AAAAAAAAsA0/hB3I1RCCs7Q/s1600/TheSinatraGroup-SNL-1991.JPG

I hope that is the case.

[pbmax]

Let's just face facts.


http://i.imgur.com/857QPn1.png

[RashanGary]

If it goes to hell, imma tip my hat to you guys who saw it coming and just admit I was wrong. Same way I was wrong about Clay Matthews being a one year starter with 5 sacks and no production, I’ll admit I was dead wrong with murphy.

It’s just not what I’m seeing though.

[pbmax]

The problem is that it won't be obvious for five years. This isn't quite Washington yet.

[RashanGary]

The problem is that it won't be obvious for five years. This isn't quite Washington yet.

I’ll be around and I’ll remember how wrong I was.

[RashanGary]

Id rather be right this time tho. I wanna see Gute, Lafleur and Pettine get one.

[Joemailman]

Murphy is 63 years old. Gutekunst is 46. At some point in the not too distant future, the Packers may have a new President who will have to decide whether to keep the current structure, or go with something else.

If Gutekunst does a great job in his current role, the Packers may have to expand his role to keep him here. Some other team could lure him away by offering him complete control of football operations.