McCarthy/Thompson —-> Gute/Lafleur transition

[RashanGary]

I listened to all of the defensive coaches last week. This week, I listened to all of the offensive coaches.

Going in, the young offensive staff and the young GM and personnel staff... I had questions. But I was going to keep an open mind.

i’m gonna go ahead and say, i’m optimistic right now. All of the coaches call Gute, Gutey. So they’re all clearly close to each other. Pettine specifically mentioned being on the same page as Gutey, and so has Lafleur. From top down, I feel like there is great understanding and communication. As good as tt was at finding talent, in hindsight, now that the communication is so good and you can hear it, I look back and see how it wasn’t always with Ted.

One thing I did appreciate about Thompson is he didn’t pigeon hole just one type of guy. He’d draft an athlete like Lang one year and a mailer like Sitton the next. He’d draft Mike Daniels one year and Kenny Clark another year. He was open to all different styles of talent. And even though coaches tend to want different types, I don’t think anyone ever complained about having Daniels even though he wasn’t a system fit or Bakhtiari and down the line.

Gute seems to have better communication with the coaching staff and the whole team seems to feel heard and empowered and understood. Maybe they’ll lose a little bit in just passing up excellent players because they’re not system fits. But overall, I can see some advantages in Gutes show compared to Thompson’s and he is showing to be very capable with drafting Alexander and MVS and EQ and I’m sure one or two more will show up this year.

The next thing I notice, and this might be even more contrasting to McCarthys regime, is the assistants and Pettine all seem more empowered, excited, engaged and inspired. The offensive coaches do talk about making sure they’re carrying Matt’s message, but I get this coaching staff feels a greater sense of ownership and enthusiasm. Lafleur also seems very approachable in that I hear him just admit he didn’t think of something or maybe doesn’t know. I get the sense people feel safe and comfortable to contribute with him.

McCarthy/Thompson, I get the feeling the communication started and stopped with MM. he controlled every voice. Now, I feel like it’s a whole trust built team where everyone communicates and as a group get on the same page. It leads to what looks like greater enthusiasm, ownership and passion.

I’m going to say now, I’m a fan of what’s going on. I’m warming up to Lafleur and I think Gute is just an incredible personal guy and all around good dude that everyone wants to work with. I’m excited.

My last question is Aaron’s stubbornness. He already said he’s going to come in and put his stamp and creativity on Lafleurs offense. I really hope he doesn’t keep changing runs to passes and running the show. I hope he implements Lafeurs tempo changes instead of trying to nit pick at the line on every play. Sometimes just get up there and snap the ball has its own charm in keeping the defense off balance. So I hope Aaron can adjust some. We won’t know till a few games in.

So far I’m liking the new regime though. I get a good feel for everyone feeling empowered, heard and excited to just be themselves and bring their own personal impact.

[gbgary]

as long as ball stays in his lane...and moves on in a year or so.

[mraynrand]

as long as ball stays in his silo...and moves on in a year or so.

FIFY.

[texaspackerbacker]

I like what you said, Justin, with one glaring exception. I absolutely do want Aaron Rodgers to consistently change running plays to pass plays. However, I don't think there will be nearly as many running plays even called as some in here seem to think. If LaFleur is smart - and there's every indication he is, he will emphasize what the Packer personnel is best suited for: pass first.

[mraynrand]

I like what you said, Justin, with one glaring exception. I absolutely do want Aaron Rodgers to consistently change running plays to pass plays. However, I don't think there will be nearly as many running plays even called as some in here seem to think. If LaFleur is smart - and there's every indication he is, he will emphasize what the Packer personnel is best suited for: pass first.

I think Rodgers should just consistently change plays to those that don't work.

[Radagast]

I listened to all of the defensive coaches last week. This week, I listened to all of the offensive coaches.

Going in, the young offensive staff and the young GM and personnel staff... I had questions. But I was going to keep an open mind.

i’m gonna go ahead and say, i’m optimistic right now. All of the coaches call Gute, Gutey. So they’re all clearly close to each other. Pettine specifically mentioned being on the same page as Gutey, and so has Lafleur. From top down, I feel like there is great understanding and communication. As good as tt was at finding talent, in hindsight, now that the communication is so good and you can hear it, I look back and see how it wasn’t always with Ted.

One thing I did appreciate about Thompson is he didn’t pigeon hole just one type of guy. He’d draft an athlete like Lang one year and a mailer like Sitton the next. He’d draft Mike Daniels one year and Kenny Clark another year. He was open to all different styles of talent. And even though coaches tend to want different types, I don’t think anyone ever complained about having Daniels even though he wasn’t a system fit or Bakhtiari and down the line.

Gute seems to have better communication with the coaching staff and the whole team seems to feel heard and empowered and understood. Maybe they’ll lose a little bit in just passing up excellent players because they’re not system fits. But overall, I can see some advantages in Gutes show compared to Thompson’s and he is showing to be very capable with drafting Alexander and MVS and EQ and I’m sure one or two more will show up this year.

The next thing I notice, and this might be even more contrasting to McCarthys regime, is the assistants and Pettine all seem more empowered, excited, engaged and inspired. The offensive coaches do talk about making sure they’re carrying Matt’s message, but I get this coaching staff feels a greater sense of ownership and enthusiasm. Lafleur also seems very approachable in that I hear him just admit he didn’t think of something or maybe doesn’t know. I get the sense people feel safe and comfortable to contribute with him.

McCarthy/Thompson, I get the feeling the communication started and stopped with MM. he controlled every voice. Now, I feel like it’s a whole trust built team where everyone communicates and as a group get on the same page. It leads to what looks like greater enthusiasm, ownership and passion.

I’m going to say now, I’m a fan of what’s going on. I’m warming up to Lafleur and I think Gute is just an incredible personal guy and all around good dude that everyone wants to work with. I’m excited.

My last question is Aaron’s stubbornness. He already said he’s going to come in and put his stamp and creativity on Lafleurs offense. I really hope he doesn’t keep changing runs to passes and running the show. I hope he implements Lafeurs tempo changes instead of trying to nit pick at the line on every play. Sometimes just get up there and snap the ball has its own charm in keeping the defense off balance. So I hope Aaron can adjust some. We won’t know till a few games in.

So far I’m liking the new regime though. I get a good feel for everyone feeling empowered, heard and excited to just be themselves and bring their own personal impact.

A few short questions if you please.

You post as though you have been with or have a close link with the team. Is this so or do you just want people to think so?

Most of us read the stories posted on the more well known sites and publications. For the most part even they don't write as though they are team insiders as you do. Do you have a neighbor that is a coach/trainer from which you gleen your information?

Last, and I don't mean any harm, but your post would be more readable if you could shorten/consolidate your message. Long and drawn out post get the first few lines read and then most (including myself) simply move on to the next poster.

Your message does matter, but making them more readable would be a good thing.

[mraynrand]

Last, and I don't mean any harm, but your post would be more readable if you could shorten/consolidate your message. Long and drawn out post get the first few lines read and then most (including myself) simply move on to the next poster.

MayB Twitter s ur thing?

[pbmax]

McCarthy/Thompson, I get the feeling the communication started and stopped with MM. he controlled every voice. Now, I feel like it’s a whole trust built team where everyone communicates and as a group get on the same page. It leads to what looks like greater enthusiasm, ownership and passion.

Most teams don't make assistant coaches available during game weeks. McCarthy did for most, if not all, his tenure. Every Tuesday if I recall. I don't think this is a sign of a guy trying to control every voice. That would be a Belichick varietal. Not sure if every assistant was out there each week, but at a minimum the three coordinators were.

We don't know if this access will extend to the regular season for LaFleur.

Its fun to hear new voices and I was excited to hear that Hackett was excited at the plays he thought his offense was making even though they were in shorts.

But every new coach is like this. The proof will be on game day.

[mraynrand]

good use of 'varietal'

[pbmax]

good use of 'varietal'

Like everyone else in the Great Recession, I began brewing session beers and planted grapes as a backup plan. My house smells like wort and jam.

[Vincenzo]

A few short questions if you please.

You post as though you have been with or have a close link with the team. Is this so or do you just want people to think so?

Most of us read the stories posted on the more well known sites and publications. For the most part even they don't write as though they are team insiders as you do. Do you have a neighbor that is a coach/trainer from which you gleen your information?

Last, and I don't mean any harm, but your post would be more readable if you could shorten/consolidate your message. Long and drawn out post get the first few lines read and then most (including myself) simply move on to the next poster.

Your message does matter, but making them more readable would be a good thing.

I didn’t find Justin’s post long and drawn out at all, in fact I don’t often read a post word for word, but found he held my interest right to the end. The most refreshing part was there wasn’t a hint of “know-it-all, blowhard stuff.”

You gotta like JH’s enthusiasm, especially after such big change in staff.
Thanks for the post, Justin!

[Cheesehead Craig]

I listened to all of the defensive coaches last week. This week, I listened to all of the offensive coaches.

Going in, the young offensive staff and the young GM and personnel staff... I had questions. But I was going to keep an open mind.

i’m gonna go ahead and say, i’m optimistic right now. All of the coaches call Gute, Gutey. So they’re all clearly close to each other. Pettine specifically mentioned being on the same page as Gutey, and so has Lafleur. From top down, I feel like there is great understanding and communication. As good as tt was at finding talent, in hindsight, now that the communication is so good and you can hear it, I look back and see how it wasn’t always with Ted.

One thing I did appreciate about Thompson is he didn’t pigeon hole just one type of guy. He’d draft an athlete like Lang one year and a mailer like Sitton the next. He’d draft Mike Daniels one year and Kenny Clark another year. He was open to all different styles of talent. And even though coaches tend to want different types, I don’t think anyone ever complained about having Daniels even though he wasn’t a system fit or Bakhtiari and down the line.

Gute seems to have better communication with the coaching staff and the whole team seems to feel heard and empowered and understood. Maybe they’ll lose a little bit in just passing up excellent players because they’re not system fits. But overall, I can see some advantages in Gutes show compared to Thompson’s and he is showing to be very capable with drafting Alexander and MVS and EQ and I’m sure one or two more will show up this year.

The next thing I notice, and this might be even more contrasting to McCarthys regime, is the assistants and Pettine all seem more empowered, excited, engaged and inspired. The offensive coaches do talk about making sure they’re carrying Matt’s message, but I get this coaching staff feels a greater sense of ownership and enthusiasm. Lafleur also seems very approachable in that I hear him just admit he didn’t think of something or maybe doesn’t know. I get the sense people feel safe and comfortable to contribute with him.

McCarthy/Thompson, I get the feeling the communication started and stopped with MM. he controlled every voice. Now, I feel like it’s a whole trust built team where everyone communicates and as a group get on the same page. It leads to what looks like greater enthusiasm, ownership and passion.

I’m going to say now, I’m a fan of what’s going on. I’m warming up to Lafleur and I think Gute is just an incredible personal guy and all around good dude that everyone wants to work with. I’m excited.

My last question is Aaron’s stubbornness. He already said he’s going to come in and put his stamp and creativity on Lafleurs offense. I really hope he doesn’t keep changing runs to passes and running the show. I hope he implements Lafeurs tempo changes instead of trying to nit pick at the line on every play. Sometimes just get up there and snap the ball has its own charm in keeping the defense off balance. So I hope Aaron can adjust some. We won’t know till a few games in.

So far I’m liking the new regime though. I get a good feel for everyone feeling empowered, heard and excited to just be themselves and bring their own personal impact.

Excellent jorb JH!

[RashanGary]

A few short questions if you please.

You post as though you have been with or have a close link with the team. Is this so or do you just want people to think so?

Most of us read the stories posted on the more well known sites and publications. For the most part even they don't write as though they are team insiders as you do. Do you have a neighbor that is a coach/trainer from which you gleen your information?

Last, and I don't mean any harm, but your post would be more readable if you could shorten/consolidate your message. Long and drawn out post get the first few lines read and then most (including myself) simply move on to the next poster.

Your message does matter, but making them more readable would be a good thing.

It probably was long.

As far as the nature of the content, i’m a very intense and intuitive listener. I pay very close attention not just to what is said, but body language and mood and context. I don’t know anything, but I have a good sense for peoples emotions and I can often times feel when something is going well or going poorly.

I also have a flexible mind so I will quickly change my opinion upon being shown new information. I’m not set in any one mindset.

Team dynamic and relationships are as important to success imo as 40 times and height/weight. So while you may be shut off to relational dynamics and think I’m an idiot talking about shit that doesn’t matter or I couldn’t possibly know, my record of feeling things out when a lot of people have no clue is pretty good.

[red]

It probably was long.

As far as the nature of the content, i’m a very intense and intuitive listener. I pay very close attention not just to what is said, but body language and mood and context. I don’t know anything, but I have a good sense for peoples emotions and I can often times feel when something is going well or going poorly.

I also have a flexible mind so I will quickly change my opinion upon being shown new information. I’m not set in any one mindset.

Team dynamic and relationships are as important to success imo as 40 times and height/weight. So while you may be shut off to relational dynamics and think I’m an idiot talking about shit that doesn’t matter or I couldn’t possibly know, my record of feeling things out when a lot of people have no clue is pretty good.

It wasn’t too long

You had shit to say and you said it

If people are easily board by reading things then they can stick to the forums with more pictures

Everyone on the team, the staff and the fans should be at least a little excited right now. One of my biggest gripes about fat dickhead was that things had just gotten too stale

I’m not completely sold on the new staff yet, but you gotta enjoy the breaths of fresh air right now

[Joemailman]

It wasn’t too long

You had shit to say and you said it

If people are easily board by reading things then they can stick to the forums with more pictures

Everyone on the team, the staff and the fans should be at least a little excited right now. One of my biggest gripes about fat dickhead was that things had just gotten too stale

I’m not completely sold on the new staff yet, but you gotta enjoy the breaths of fresh air right now[

Yeah, it was hard to get excited about some of the coaching additions MM brought in last year. For the fans, and I suspect, the players. I think it manifested itself in Rodgers' play, and in some of the terrible 1st half performances the team had last year. Some of the coaching additions on the offensive side do seem to have a short resume, so we'll see. More uncertainty, but definitely more excitement.

[RashanGary]

Coaches and players seem more engaged now compared to the last couple years. I sense McCarthy became overbearing.

[Joemailman]

https://theathletic.com/1003014/2019/05/30/packers-otas-passing-offense-takes-center-stage-raven-green-gets-an-opportunity-and-more/


One of the most glaring visual differences between LaFleur’s offense and the one by former coach Mike McCarthy is the former’s reliance on condensed formations, the use of which seemed to increase during the red-zone session. Where McCarthy preferred to spread his receivers across the field — often times with equal distance between them, stretching toward the sideline — LaFleur enjoys clustering his receivers near the end of the offensive line, a staple of the Sean McVay and Kyle Shanahan systems.

These tighter formations typically feature a trio of receivers just a few yards from the offensive tackle on that side of the field, and there is generally a tight end on the opposite side to balance the formation. The easiest way to picture it is a three-by-one alignment.

From an offensive perspective, the benefits of narrower formations include varying the types of releases for wide receivers (who are no longer walled off by the sideline), reducing the efficacy of press coverage (because it’s more difficult to press without the sideline) and increasing the chances of natural pick routes (as wide receivers break from the trio and cross each other’s paths within the first few yards).

“It’s complex,” Adams said. “It’s a lot to it, but it’s nothing we can’t handle. It’s really early still, so we’re still getting a good feel for how we run certain routes, the quarterbacks on certain timing. But that’s what this time is for, to practice and get better and get on the same page.

“It’s inviting a lot less press coverage, but something I’ve been comfortable with is press coverage, so it’s not like it’s taking anything away or adding anything really. It’s going to allow me to get out and get into my routes a lot easier, and if guys want to still move with motions and matching and press from there, it’s just going to take it back to what I’m used to. So at the end of the day, I feel like it’s a win-win for the offense.”

[pbmax]

Yeah, it was hard to get excited about some of the coaching additions MM brought in last year. For the fans, and I suspect, the players. I think it manifested itself in Rodgers' play, and in some of the terrible 1st half performances the team had last year. Some of the coaching additions on the offensive side do seem to have a short resume, so we'll see. More uncertainty, but definitely more excitement.

I think the offense overall was just stale. No voices who could argue for something different were ever brought in, agreed.

But on Defense, I was excited by what Pettine brought in. Even though McCarthy hired him without much of a search (he was the first person interviewed) which was itself another reminder that M3 could be his own worst enemy.

[pbmax]

https://theathletic.com/1003014/2019/05/30/packers-otas-passing-offense-takes-center-stage-raven-green-gets-an-opportunity-and-more/


“It’s inviting a lot less press coverage, but something I’ve been comfortable with is press coverage, so it’s not like it’s taking anything away or adding anything really. It’s going to allow me to get out and get into my routes a lot easier, and if guys want to still move with motions and matching and press from there, it’s just going to take it back to what I’m used to. So at the end of the day, I feel like it’s a win-win for the offense.”



Is he talking about the defense or other receivers?

[Joemailman]

It's occurred to me that on passing plays that what Pettine and LaFleur/Hackett are trying to accomplish are mirror images of each other. Pettine will be trying to confuse opponents blocking assignments so he has someone running free at the QB. LaFleur/Hackett willl be trying to confuse coverage assignments with bunch formations that result in an uncovered receiver.

[pbmax]

My fear this year is that it really will be Sherman 2.0 and they will attempt to run a lot. And after breakdowns to RB and OL, that will go nowhere. Then they will start to pass. But not have the installs to run a predominantly pass first, perhaps second and definitely third offense.

I hope I am wrong, but coaches tend to move the pieces one at a time.

[mraynrand]

There’s no reason to go full U71 but they will stress run, And it will make play action work better. I see a wide open offense being possible. I am most curious to see how the deep passing game works in this offense with Rodgers. More off play action or do they Telegraph it with the running back they keep in to block

What I don’t want to see is a heavy dose of the close vested underneath passing game that can be defeated with a matchup zone.

[mraynrand]

Is he talking about the defense or other receivers?

Defense.

[texaspackerbacker]

The good sense thing to do - and what I strongly think they will do - is NOT to run first, but to emphasize what the Packers personnel is best suited for: pass first with a mobile QB buying time when the O Line lets the D right through. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Aaron Rodgers is the solution that makes all good things possible. Going away from that would be a recipe for failure, but likely, LaFleur is smart enough not to do that.

Press coverage - which that quote was talking about - will be eaten up by Aaron Rodgers. Extend the play and hit the receivers after they defeat the press. Umbrella coverage of some sort is what would be more effective, but if they do that, you just pass underneath - not the Packers strength, but certainly doable.

[pbmax]

Press coverage - which that quote was talking about - will be eaten up by Aaron Rodgers. Extend the play and hit the receivers after they defeat the press. Umbrella coverage of some sort is what would be more effective, but if they do that, you just pass underneath - not the Packers strength, but certainly doable.

Press coverage is beaten with the extended offense when you have Nelson, Cobb, Adams and Cook. With no Nelson, limited Cobb, no Cook and only Adams, you get let season. That might not be giving Rodgers enough credit: he made the extended offense work to near MVP level in 2016 with Adams, Cobb, Jones and Cook.

Agree that a shell deep forcing the Packers to throw short worked best when they were at their best. M3's response was to go hurry up and throw shorter and shorter, which slowly crippled the offense.

[mraynrand]

Tex is advocating for a broken offense

[Joemailman]

Tex is advocating for a broken offense

Why not? Last year was so much fun.

[pbmax]

I want 98% passing in first half.

Get a 2 TD+ lead.

Then 98% running in second half.

Balance.

[texaspackerbacker]

Tex is advocating for a broken offense

Granted, things didn't go well with lesser receivers. I'm expecting, though, with another year of experience, MVS, St. Brown, maybe Moore and maybe a healthy Graham can be deep threats, and Allison can be a more than decent possession receiver. That plus a little bit more coaching creativity on routes, etc. and we should see something a lot better.

A "broken offense" would be what pbmax described above: forcing a run-first thing with good but not great RBs and ok but not much more than that O Line. I am confident - until he shows otherwise - that LaFleur is smarter than that, and even if he proves not to be, that Aaron Rodgers will change plays away from a lot of runs, as needed.

[MadScientist]

Granted, things didn't go well with lesser receivers. I'm expecting, though, with another year of experience, MVS, St. Brown, maybe Moore and maybe a healthy Graham can be deep threats, and Allison can be a more than decent possession receiver. That plus a little bit more coaching creativity on routes, etc. and we should see something a lot better.

A "broken offense" would be what pbmax described above: forcing a run-first thing with good but not great RBs and ok but not much more than that O Line. I am confident - until he shows otherwise - that LaFleur is smarter than that, and even if he proves not to be, that Aaron Rodgers will change plays away from a lot of runs, as needed.

Other than I think Graham is not much of a deep threat, I generally agree with this analysis. However there is nothing wrong with scheming receivers open and taking an easy 5-12 yard completion, with a chance for YAC. Nothing is preventing LaFleur from keeping elements of the extended offense for when the guy who is schemed open isn't. Let Rodgers manage the game and then go for the jugular when the opportunity arises. Mix in running as needed, just as long as they aren't so fucking predictable about it.

[texaspackerbacker]

Glad you mostly agree. Graham of last year wasn't much of a threat, but if he can get back healthy, who knows. He certainly used to be a deep threat.

Somebody 6'4 with 4.3 speed who showed the ability to catch last year - MVS - is definitely a deep threat. Adams is getting to be a great all around receiver, deep threat included. St. Brown I think is also fast enough; Moore hasn't shown much yet, but he was drafted as a deep threat too. All of those guys have the ability to shed press coverage and go roaring away deep. Safeties aren't always gonna be able to get over for help with a QB who can throw it 40 or 50 yards on a line. I'd much rather see that than this stupid idea of getting rid of the ball quick on a slant or out route than maybe gets jumped for an interception. Some may downplay Rodgers' not throwing interceptions, but to me, that is the A number 1 quality that makes him the GOAT. I don't want to see that screwed up just to please some people's wish for him to get rid of the ball quicker.

[mraynrand]

Some may downplay Rodgers' not throwing interceptions, but to me, that is the A number 1 quality that makes him the GOAT. I don't want to see that screwed up just to please some people's wish for him to get rid of the ball quicker.

who wants to tell him?

[RashanGary]

There’s an article with graham talking about proving the negative talk wrong. He said he can still run and he’s gonna have a big year.

Graham does not talk about injuries, but I’ve listened closely to coaches and Graham and he had them. He’s got more than he showed last year and I’m betting on him. If there’s an over/under futures bet, I’m taking the over with Graham.

And I haven’t bet for a while cuz I want to be confident. I’m that confident in Graham based on what I’ve read between the lines.

[pbmax]

Other than I think Graham is not much of a deep threat, I generally agree with this analysis. However there is nothing wrong with scheming receivers open and taking an easy 5-12 yard completion, with a chance for YAC. Nothing is preventing LaFleur from keeping elements of the extended offense for when the guy who is schemed open isn't. Let Rodgers manage the game and then go for the jugular when the opportunity arises. Mix in running as needed, just as long as they aren't so fucking predictable about it.

Fully agree about scheming people open short, except it can't be the entirety of the pass game. You have to credibly threaten deeper levels to pull coverage back.

[pbmax]

There’s an article with graham talking about proving the negative talk wrong. He said he can still run and he’s gonna have a big year.

Graham does not talk about injuries, but I’ve listened closely to coaches and Graham and he had them. He’s got more than he showed last year and I’m betting on him. If there’s an over/under futures bet, I’m taking the over with Graham.

And I haven’t bet for a while cuz I want to be confident. I’m that confident in Graham based on what I’ve read between the lines.


I saw that but I have to say to my ears, it sounded like what he was supposed to say. I would have rather he swallowed the microphone in anger.

[Joemailman]

I have no doubt that Graham is committed to proving the doubters wrong.

I have considerable doubt that his knee will allow him to do that.

[run pMc]

Jimmy Graham will turn 33 during the season; I do not expect him to turn back the clock. I would hope another year with Rodgers helps improve their chemistry and that MLF/Hackett know how to use him better than M3 did. He didn't have a terrible year and I give him credit for playing thru a bad knee and broken thumb, but everyone knows he has to play better or he won't see year 3 of his contract.

As for Rodgers and the offense, look back to Game 1, post-knee injury. He played in rhythm, with some short/quick throws, and then got some big chunk plays (e.g., the 1st TD throw to Allison). That's how they need to do it IMO. A bigger emphasis on the running game isn't a bad thing, either...I have to go back and find the story where a player said some teams practiced as many runs in a day as GB did in a week. M3 skewed to pass heavily last year; Aaron Jones, Dexter and Jamaal W can give more balance and contribute to a productive offense IMO if schemed and executed properly.