The need for Speed

[Radagast]

Strength is a valued asset on NFL Teams. Without strength, teams would be moved around by their opposition at will. Speed however (and agility) can be a determining factor for a team's success/failure.That 1/10's or 2/10's of a second of greater speed can be the difference between a WR getting separation and making a big play or a CB running stride for stride with a WR foiling a big play.

GB has been investing in speed now, as I see it, far more than the former GM did. IMO, the CBs and the WRs, Safeties, and Kick Returners will be faster in 2019 than ever before. I'm not so sure about GB's RBs though.

This thread invites you to comment on the Packers Team Speed. How do you rate the LBs? Will the Packer WRs / TEs be faster in the NFC North as compared to the NFC North defenses that they will face? Can the Packers 2019 Defensive Secondary shut down the Bears, Lions, and Vikings? Will GB's new offensive system open up the field for more TE receptions this season? Will the GB offense have the team speed to run effective screen plays?

I look forward to reading your views and insightful arguments. I invite the truly knowledgeable to educate us with your statistics, skill reviews, and matchups as you place your thoughts into your post.


:pack:

[RashanGary]

They gave a lot of young, fast new players. Gute does pick more speed guys with MVS, Alexander, King and Savage all being elite speed guys. Let’s hope they pan out!

And yes. Speed will help if they’re good players!

[Rutnstrut]

Like JH stated, speed alone is pretty worthless. Al Davis proved that with a lot of his draft picks. He wouldn't care if all they could do is run fast in a straight line.

[Radagast]

Like JH stated, speed alone is pretty worthless. Al Davis proved that with a lot of his draft picks. He wouldn't care if all they could do is run fast in a straight line.

Can you point out those worthless players that don't meet the skills test? As for being in shape, I can't recall the last time I saw an out of shape NFL player. Many areas of a players overall performance ratings begin with speed. They may be super strong, but if they have slow foot speed, then the rest is irrelevant.

Most positions do require speed as a 1st tier qualifier. Few positions can overlook a slow player. Even defensive linemen sometimes need to chase down a QB or RB. Yes tackling, catching, throwing, and other skills are very important, but without speed the execution of a player can fall short. If opposing RBs are turning the corner on you to extend for an additional 6 to 8 yards, then it's likely those monster strong LBs are too damn slow.

[texaspackerbacker]

I tend to agree with Radagast on this.

The Packers at times in the recent past have been criticized - justifiably, maybe - for lack of speed, especially on D. Speed with pass rushers gets you sacks as opposed to near misses.

Receivers can get by on moves and hands and size, but if a DB gets beat by speed, it's usually all over. I also like the idea now of having a true breakaway RB - A. Jones. I'll take that over a plodder any day.

[RashanGary]

Taking a look at the fastest players as listed at mockdraftable in the last 20 years, clearly more goes into it than speed because there are a whole bunch of duds mixed in with a few great players.

But also, it’s clear that some of the greatest of great players do have great speed.. So it’s just part of the equation. It’s interesting how people try to take one simplistic quality like speed or height and assume that all future results will be based on that trait. That’s just not how it works. If it was, Oren Burks and Josh Jones would be better than Blake Martinez and Adrian Amos. That theyre not shows that false steps slow a player down as do bad hands slow a player from being a good receiver, as does poor vision slow a running back or returner.

So much more goes into it than speed. But I do like that Gute aggressively pursued players who are good football players and also extremely fast. Where TT seemed to value big guys who could move in the first round of the draft almost exclusively, Gute seems to be valuing skill players who are very fast as much as big guys who can move. With that, Gute has used high picks on Alexander, King and Savage. That seems to be paying off as he seems to be hitting on more high picks than TT did.

Leads me to believe that just looking for size at the top of the draft as the only rare quality to truly value was a less effective approach to Gutes strategy of valuing both size as a rare quality, and also speed. And with that, Gute may end up a better GM than TT. We shall see. I actually do think Gute might end up being a Packer HOF legend in his own right.

[Radagast]

Every player that makes an NFL roster gets chosen because they have shown that they can play football. That said, how then does a team elevate itself above their competition? Answer: Team Speed !

NFL players are big and strong and in some cases very skilled in a speciality area. IMO, speed is the separating factor. GB may just have the best team speed in the NFC North. Speed and a HOF QB can be a lethal combination.

[Cheesehead Craig]

I think too much emphasis is put on the straight-line speed. While yes it is important, I would much rather have a guy who is extraordinarily quick and agile. To me players who have those abilities are more able to take advantage of those very small windows where big play can be made.

One of the players that was highly touted this draft, DK Metcalf, put everything into his 40-yard dash score. He has low agility and questionable route running skills. So it's going to be interesting to see how he does this season.

[RashanGary]

Every player that makes an NFL roster gets chosen because they have shown that they can play football. That said, how then does a team elevate itself above their competition? Answer: Team Speed !



If this is true then why are fast players like josh Jones, Oren Burks and Jeff Janis being out played by average speed guys like Amos, Martinez and Allison?

Clearly not all football players are created equally with speed being the only variable quality. But if you think that and refuse to budge, who am I to argue with someone who knows so much. The discussion will just have to die at we agree to disagree.

[Radagast]

Straight Speed ?

No one ever suggested that speed and agility can't coexist. Good hands, quick thinking, and precise execution of technique also come into play for a player. However the player with better speed has the advantage. If speed were not a factor then a LB could return kicks and no player would be under 300 lbs.

[RashanGary]

Would you rather have a two fast players in their prime like Jeff Janis and Trevor Davis or two slower players in their prime like Chris Carter and Larry Fitzgerald?

Speed is one factor. But it’s really nice to have a rangy free safety, decently fast corners and at least one fast deep threat WR.

But at the end of the day, you can’t pass on some of the greatest players who’ve ever played because they don’t run a fast 40 yard dash.

[RashanGary]

Ed Reed, Nick Collins and Earl Thomas were some of the best free safeties of the last 20 years. Their teams tended to play a lot of one high safety because they had so much speed at free safety, they could get away with it. I’m a big fan of smart, fast free safeties.

Other than that position, I’m a little more flexible because there have been so many HOF WRs, Corners, Strong Safeties and running backs with just decent long speed.

[pbmax]

Can you point out those worthless players that don't meet the skills test? As for being in shape, I can't recall the last time I saw an out of shape NFL player.

Off the top of my head, do you remember Eddie Lacy?

How about Tyrone Davis?

[pbmax]

A common mistake, especially outside the skill positions, is to confuse a desire for speed for a desire for quickness.

[Radagast]

A common mistake, especially outside the skill positions, is to confuse a desire for speed for a desire for quickness.

Most NFL CBs are quick, speed often is the best way to gain separation from them. Also, being quick is an asset for a Kick returner that needs to quickly change direction, but I've seen quick/sure handed players get run down from behind because they were slow. Don't confuse the desire for quickness with the need for speed.

IMO, a LB running to stop a RB from turning the corner is a matter of speed , not quickness. If that RB were to change direction to avoid the LB, then the LB would need quickness to also change his direction and tackle the RB. Being quick requires processing a thought into action, while speed requires less brain power. I value both, but just being quick can be not enough when matched against someone with speed too.

As for out of shape players, it is not often they are seen or tolerated by teams.Most NFL locker rooms look like a commercial for Golds Gym.

[RashanGary]

Secondary kind of reminds me of 2010. Speed and youth to cover the big outside areas and experience and savvy to handle the short area and grey area inside. The inside guys will also be masking blitz’s and coverages. So like i said, it’s a good mix of the right talents in the right spots.

Boundary youth and speed
Interior savvy and experience
Brute trench force

It’s a nice mix.

[RashanGary]

Why was slow Larry Fitzgerald a more successful WR than fast Jeff Janis, radagast?

Your speed thing sounds good coming out and when you pat yourself on the back for knowing so much, but it’s not working in real life so you have exactly zero people convinced.

[Radagast]

Why was slow Larry Fitzgerald a more successful WR than fast Jeff Janis, radagast?

Your speed thing sounds good coming out and when you pat yourself on the back for knowing so much, but it’s not working in real life so you have exactly zero people convinced.

There are not enough posters to get a true variety of opinions. Players like Fitzgerald are blessed with great coordination and yes quickness. Yet why do we say that this or that player has lost a half or full step? Speed does matter and so does quickness, but many a skilled player has been cut because another equally skilled player ran faster. I know that speed is a strong asset in football as well as in many other sports too.

As for patting myself on the back, that's not so. I simply try to post the best argument I can. As for support, this is the low season for posting to this forum.

[pbmax]

Most NFL CBs are quick, speed often is the best way to gain separation from them. Also, being quick is an asset for a Kick returner that needs to quickly change direction, but I've seen quick/sure handed players get run down from behind because they were slow. Don't confuse the desire for quickness with the need for speed.

IMO, a LB running to stop a RB from turning the corner is a matter of speed , not quickness. If that RB were to change direction to avoid the LB, then the LB would need quickness to also change his direction and tackle the RB. Being quick requires processing a thought into action, while speed requires less brain power. I value both, but just being quick can be not enough when matched against someone with speed too.

As for out of shape players, it is not often they are seen or tolerated by teams.Most NFL locker rooms look like a commercial for Golds Gym.


Still trouble with basic reading comprehension?


A common mistake, especially outside the skill positions, is to confuse a desire for speed for a desire for quickness.

Quickness is still much more necessary for an ILB than flat out 40 speed, as reaction time and their initial first step will get you to a corner faster than a 40 time. However, teams increasingly want both, especially with one of the ILB positions. If speed overcame the need for recognitions and quickness, then Oren Burks or James Jones would be in the Pro Bowl.

[Patler]

In football, as in most sports, players are at top speed only infrequently. Therefore, it is only infrequently that elite speed makes a real difference. On the other hand, elite quickness (both physical and mental) can be a difference maker during most plays.

[RashanGary]

Sam shields, Nick Collins, Greg Jennings and Jordy Nelson are some fast players who’s speed helped us win a SB.

I hope Alexander, King, Savage and MVS do the same for us!

[RashanGary]

In also happy to have the quality players who are less fast like Charles Woodson after 30, James Jones, Driver late in his career, Adrian Amos, Blake Martinez, Davante Adams and Aaron Jones.

I appreciate all sorts of talent.

[mraynrand]

There was this kid on my high school track team who took speed before running distance races. He would finish near the back of the pack every time, but he was always convinced he'd won the race.

[mraynrand]

Why was slow Larry Fitzgerald a more successful WR than fast Jeff Janis, radagast?

Stubby held Janis back. After leaving the Packers, he's shown his HOF mettle.

[mraynrand]

If speed overcame the need for recognitions and quickness, then Oren Burks or James Jones would be in the Pro Bowl.

I swear to you Burks is not finished yet.

[mraynrand]

Boundary youth and speed
Interior savvy and experience
Brute trench force

It’s a nice mix.


Brute Trench Force. That's a keeper.

[pbmax]

There was this kid on my high school track team who took speed before running distance races. He would finish near the back of the pack every time, but he was always convinced he'd won the race.

He needed medication. He was just taking the wrong kind.

[pbmax]

I swear to you Burks is not finished yet.

Pretty sure James Jones is though.

Meant Josh Jones.

I think.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Why was slow Larry Fitzgerald a more successful WR than fast Jeff Janis, radagast?

Larry Fitzgerald was not slow for most of his career. Dude is 6'3" and ran a 4.48 40. Dude was big and fast for most of his career.

[Radagast]

Larry Fitzgerald was not slow for most of his career. Dude is 6'3" and ran a 4.48 40. Dude was big and fast for most of his career.

My compliments to you. Would you be willing to respond to the 1st post of this thread. Too many take a threads original concept and divert it to suit their unfocused thoughts. You however zeroed in on Fitzgerald and posted in a clear and factually concise manner. If you could use that skill to refocus this thread that would be awesome and more than I can manage.

Thank you again for your post and I look forward to reading more. :-)

[mraynrand]

My compliments to you. Would you be willing to respond to the 1st post of this thread. Too many take a threads original concept and divert it to suit their unfocused thoughts. You however zeroed in on Fitzgerald and posted in a clear and factually concise manner. If you could use that skill to refocus this thread that would be awesome and more than I can manage.

Thank you again for your post and I look forward to reading more. :-)

I apologize for not sticking to your rigid thread guidelines.

Do you think team TE speed has improved? What if rookie StoneAge isn’t up to speed (Ha Ha, get it?) with the the playbook or NFL strength and conditioning? What happens to overall TE Speed/Strength then?

[hoosier]

Ezra had speed. He could down a hot dog in five seconds, and he once put away an entire foot-long in less than ten seconds.

[Radagast]

Ever see those certain shows where the backwoods folks come to town all piled in the back of an ancient rusty pickup truck. None have attended more than the 4th grade and all of their cloths are patched somewhere. They complain that town folk are strange and everything cost way too much. It reminds me of some of this forum's posters. They believe that it's strange to post a comment that's not either sarcastic or vulgar. They think that left handed comments impress people and being the class clown makes them popular. Most of those clowns I ever knew are working as janitors or as garbage men.

Team / individual speed is a recognised skill. Talking about it should not be that hard. I hope that some really fast and football skilled players will emerge in 2019 for the Packers. No Joke !

[mraynrand]

Ever see those certain shows where the backwoods folks come to town all piled in the back of an ancient rusty pickup truck. None have attended more than the 4th grade and all of their cloths are patched somewhere. They complain that town folk are strange and everything cost way too much. It reminds me of some of this forum's posters. They believe that it's strange to post a comment that's not either sarcastic or vulgar. They think that left handed comments impress people and being the class clown makes them popular. Most of those clowns I ever knew are working as janitors or as garbage men.

This says a lot about you. I'll leave it there.

[hoosier]

Mr. Gilly's a trash man. He is speedy too. Except when it comes to taking his bath.

https://www.lineupthebooks.com/content/images/2018/07/trashy-town-interior.jpg

[esoxx]

I apologize for not sticking to your rigid thread guidelines.

Do you think team TE speed has improved? What if rookie StoneAge isn’t up to speed (Ha Ha, get it?) with the the playbook or NFL strength and conditioning? What happens to overall TE Speed/Strength then?

Bring black Richard Rodgers!

[Zool]

Ever see those certain shows where the backwoods folks come to town all piled in the back of an ancient rusty pickup truck. None have attended more than the 4th grade and all of their cloths are patched somewhere. They complain that town folk are strange and everything cost way too much. It reminds me of some of this forum's posters. They believe that it's strange to post a comment that's not either sarcastic or vulgar. They think that left handed comments impress people and being the class clown makes them popular. Most of those clowns I ever knew are working as janitors or as garbage men.

Team / individual speed is a recognised skill. Talking about it should not be that hard. I hope that some really fast and football skilled players will emerge in 2019 for the Packers. No Joke !

You have your take quite backwards. It's you who has a problem with posts that do not fit your criteria. You've taken it upon yourself to judge other's posts. This forum is specifically for posters who want to say anything at any time. You are specifically the outlier. You're welcome to post whatever, whenever, but you need to temper your expectations. The scoldings are getting old.

[Upnorth]

On the outside we definitely have the capacity for speed, but we don't know if any one has good ball skills. I don't know what to expect out of this new o, but I don't think flat out speed will be as important as quickness to get timed separation.

On the other hand, I think we have great speed in the special teams for both returner and gunner, enough that perhaps even Slocum would have looked only slightly below average.

[Radagast]

On the outside we definitely have the capacity for speed, but we don't know if any one has good ball skills. I don't know what to expect out of this new o, but I don't think flat out speed will be as important as quickness to get timed separation.

On the other hand, I think we have great speed in the special teams for both returner and gunner, enough that perhaps even Slocum would have looked only slightly below average.


Thank you Upnorth for your valued opinion. I agree with your post. However let's note that speed at RB can mean turning the corner on outside running plays. In addition, speed at LB can shut down runners trying to turn the corner on us. Also, a QB with an arn like Rodgers can effectively make use of a deep threat WR. MVS could be that deep threat as he enters his 2nd season.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Thank you Upnorth for your valued opinion. I agree with your post. However let's note that speed at RB can mean turning the corner on outside running plays. In addition, speed at LB can shut down runners trying to turn the corner on us. Also, a QB with an arn like Rodgers can effectively make use of a deep threat WR. MVS could be that deep threat as he enters his 2nd season.

It sounds like you're using the word speed to mean both quickness and straight-line types of speed. I think most people when they hear the word speed think more in the vein of straight line speed.

There's the quick burst speed that you attribute to a RB getting outside or a LB to stop him. And then there's the different type of speed that you're attributing for MVS which is the straight line type.

[pbmax]

Why would you patch a cloth?

[Radagast]

Why would you patch a cloth?

Congratulations you've discovered a spelling error, you get a Gold Star today.

As for patches, it's what poor folks do to repair their clothes. Duh !!!

[Iron Mike]

40 yd times:

Bears 3rd round pick D. Montgomery.....4.63

Packers 1st round pick R. Gary..............4.58

Bring on the season, already!!!!!!!

[Radagast]

40 yd times:

Bears 3rd round pick D. Montgomery.....4.63

Packers 1st round pick R. Gary..............4.58

Bring on the season, already!!!!!!!


That was sweet Mike, and right on point too. :wave:

[George Cumby]

I swear to you Burks is not finished yet.

For some odd reason I am the only member of the Oren Burks Fan Club. Wanna' be fan #2?

[mraynrand]

For some odd reason I am the only member of the Oren Burks Fan Club. Wanna' be fan #2?

Sure. Wist says he is the worst football player he’s seen at any level. That’s absurd. There’s this kid in pee wee football who Belichick would light up like no one’s business. Kid falls for every fake and has false steps all over the field. Plus his room is messy. Burks still has a chance.

[Cheesehead Craig]

For some odd reason I am the only member of the Oren Burks Fan Club. Wanna' be fan #2?

I was in it as well. We're like the 3 Musketeers, except less like a candy bar.

[George Cumby]

^ Well, Rand is kind of sweet like nougat.

[pbmax]

I am still a fan. Not giving up on high round picks is my hobby.

[run pMc]

I apologize for not sticking to your rigid thread guidelines.

LOL

[run pMc]

I'm optimistic about Burks as well...at least until Week 3. At that point if the wagon hits a pothole I might fly off and land in a mudpuddle.

[Joemailman]

It sounds like you're using the word speed to mean both quickness and straight-line types of speed. I think most people when they hear the word speed think more in the vein of straight line speed.

There's the quick burst speed that you attribute to a RB getting outside or a LB to stop him. And then there's the different type of speed that you're attributing for MVS which is the straight line type.

Yes. Aaron Jones is an explosive player despite average speed for a RB. (4.56 40.). Donald Driver a former high jumper, was explosive in the first 10-15 yards, but had only average deep speed for a WR. MVS on the other hand has the top speed to take the top off a defense.

[Radagast]

As I was rewatching GB's 2016 Wildcard game vs Washington recently, a few things stood out.

First was James Jones and how his downfield threat opened up the middle of the field for shorter 10 to 15 yd gains.

Second was Rookie Preston Smith, now a Packer, tackled Aaron Rodgers in the End Zone for a 2 pt Safety in the 1st qtr.

Third was how an O-Line without Bakhtiari opened holes for Eddie Lacey and James Starks that resulted in a Lacy TD.

Last was how Peppers, Matthews, Perry and others put great pressure on Kirk Cousins.

I mentioned James Jones because his speed downfield was a real key asset for Rodgers and the GB offense. I'm hoping that MVS will be such a downfield threat this season for the Packers.

[Joemailman]

As I was rewatching GB's 2016 Wildcard game vs Washington recently, a few things stood out.

First was James Jones and how his downfield threat opened up the middle of the field for shorter 10 to 15 yd gains.

Second was Rookie Preston Smith, now a Packer, tackled Aaron Rodgers in the End Zone for a 2 pt Safety in the 1st qtr.

Third was how an O-Line without Bakhtiari opened holes for Eddie Lacey and James Starks that resulted in a Lacy TD.

Last was how Peppers, Matthews, Perry and others put great pressure on Kirk Cousins.

I mentioned James Jones because his speed downfield was a real key asset for Rodgers and the GB offense. I'm hoping that MVS will be such a downfield threat this season for the Packers.James Jones did not have great speed downfield. Jones, with has ability to run great routes, avoid jams and use proper angles proved you can create separation downfield without great speed. Jones lasted until the middle of the 3rd round (and some thought drafting him there was a reach) because he lacked great speed. MVS, and even ESB are much faster than Jones was.

[ThunderDan]

As I was rewatching GB's 2016 Wildcard game vs Washington recently, a few things stood out.

First was James Jones and how his downfield threat opened up the middle of the field for shorter 10 to 15 yd gains.

Second was Rookie Preston Smith, now a Packer, tackled Aaron Rodgers in the End Zone for a 2 pt Safety in the 1st qtr.

Third was how an O-Line without Bakhtiari opened holes for Eddie Lacey and James Starks that resulted in a Lacy TD.

Last was how Peppers, Matthews, Perry and others put great pressure on Kirk Cousins.

I mentioned James Jones because his speed downfield was a real key asset for Rodgers and the GB offense. I'm hoping that MVS will be such a downfield threat this season for the Packers.

Please stick to the topic of this thread. Your second and last sentence were fine. The rest had nothing to do with speed.

[ThunderDan]

James Jones did not have great speed downfield. Jones, with has ability to run great routes, avoid jams and use proper angles proved you can create separation downfield without great speed. Jones lasted until the middle of the 3rd round (and some thought drafting him there was a reach) because he lacked great speed. MVS, and even ESB are much faster than Jones was.

Yup. Jones was the ultimate professional. Used knowledge and great routes to get open.

[George Cumby]

Yup. Jones was the ultimate professional. Used knowledge and great routes to get open.

And he was a fucking bully.

[Radagast]

I never said that James Jones had track star speed, but he was a downfield threat that teams had to respect.

As for respect, Forget U Thunderdan. Now go play with your wooden blocks and stop bothering the adults.

Respect also acts upon defenses to honor the deep threat, which can open other areas of the field for short gain passes and runs. In addition, on some plays WRs are not supposed to go at 100% full speed as that is how the play is designed. That said, gaining yds after the catch can indeed need speed. MVS could just be that deep threat that has not been seen in GB for some time.


:pack:

[run pMc]

Why
so
serious?

[Radagast]

Serious ?

As opposed to being continually juveniley lame ?

Good humor has it's place, but too many don't know what is and is not in good taste. Elevate your banter, agree to disagree, but wallowing in the gutter gains no one any respect.

Getting back on topic, I recently viewed GB's game last season with Miami. I showed me that Aaron Jones' and MVS's speed will be a great part of the Packers 2019 offense. Alexander should make it to pro bowl status and his speed will get him there.

GB's team speed will, IMO, place GB among the top 5 Defenses in 2019. The FA additions will be the difference over recent past seasons. They greatly improved last season, but they should be building on that as they will start the regular season against the Bears.


:pack:

[George Cumby]

Jesus Woody, just be Woody again without the subterfuge.

[Radagast]

Jesus Woody, just be Woody again without the subterfuge.

Calling upon Jesus? You should look to someone you know and stop trying to impress the HS dropouts. Oh, and be speedy about it.

[George Cumby]

Wtf are you on about?

[pbmax]

Jesus Woody, just be Woody again without the subterfuge.

Just what do you mean by using the word subterfuge? When I read that, I think this:

subterfuge
If you want to surprise your mom with a sweatshirt, but don't know her size, it might take an act of subterfuge, like going through her closet, to find it out. Subterfuge is the use of tricky actions to hide or get something.
It's pronounced "SUB-ter-fyooj." As a countable noun, a subterfuge is a tricky action or device: She employed a very clever subterfuge to get the information she needed. Subterfuge is from French, from Old French suterfuge, from Late Latin subterfugium, from Latin subterfugere "to escape," from subter "secretly, under" plus fugere "to flee."

~n~ something intended to misrepresent the true nature of an activity
“he wasn't sick--it was just a subterfuge”
Synonyms:
blind
Type of:
deceit, deception, misrepresentation
a misleading falsehood

the "subterfuge" family
Usage Examples
All SourcesFictionArts / CultureNewsBusinessSportsScience / MedTechnology
From the outside, such subterfuge looks like the worst kind of paternalism.
SlateJul 10, 2019
I remembered Mrs. Van Hopper's warning of the night before about putting myself forward, and was embarrassed that he might think my talk of Monaco was a subterfuge to win a lift.
Rebecca
Is it a sophisticated one, layered with direction and misdirection, subterfuge and secret identities, motivations both hidden and not, like the Agatha Christie yarns it supposedly pastiches?
The GuardianJun 28, 2019
And the fact that he can’t leads one to recall a track record of erratic behaviour: the affairs, the untruths, the subterfuges, the sackings for lying.

late 16th century: from French, or from late Latin subterfugium, from Latin subterfugere ‘escape secretly’, from subter- ‘beneath’ + fugere ‘flee’.

I am not particularly fond of the 16th Century French and prefer not to involve them in my manner of speaking and communicating in clear and concise TRUTH!


subterfuge noun
sub·​ter·​fuge | \ ˈsəb-tər-ˌfyüj \
Definition of subterfuge
1 : deception by artifice or stratagem in order to conceal, escape, or evade
2 : a deceptive device or stratagem

I am much more receptive to the idea of a stratagem.

Go Vocabulary Go.

[mraynrand]

Holy hell, now Woody has taken over PBmax's account! PB, how many crunches you do this morning? What does Mae have to say about all this?

[hoosier]

First three weeks of July are always rough on Packer fans. Brewers aren't doing too much to help distract us this year. Thick and cantankerous becomes the rule of the road.

[mraynrand]

First three weeks of July are always rough on Packer fans. Brewers aren't doing too much to help distract us this year. Thick and cantankerous becomes the rule of the road.

it's a really good time to catch up on your crunches

[hoosier]

it's a really good time to catch up on your crunches

Aye aye, Captain!

https://www.turnips2tangerines.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/IMG_2423-e1506272153960.jpg

[pbmax]

First three weeks of July are always rough on Packer fans. Brewers aren't doing too much to help distract us this year. Thick and cantankerous becomes the rule of the road.

I have beat reporters on Twitter lamenting about the effect the Brewers are having on radio hosts. Its quite touching.

[pbmax]

That looks like broccoli and cheese.

[hoosier]

Agreed. The packaging leaves something to be desired, and the low res imagery doesn't help. I'm sure the product itself is delish, though. :-)

2019 Brewers are a victim of their own unrealistic expectations. They forgot that bullpen success does not typically carry over from one year to another, especially not in these days of low pitching loads when everyone sits at 96 MPH till their elbows explode. And they trusted too much in Jesús.

[hoosier]

Anyone wanna see my Cap'n Crunch seared tuna recipe? Probably belongs in Romper Room/Hot off the Grill thread, oh well.

[mraynrand]

Aye aye, Captain!

https://www.turnips2tangerines.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/IMG_2423-e1506272153960.jpg


That looks absolutely disgusting. I'm gonna pick up a few boxes.

[pbmax]

Agreed. The packaging leaves something to be desired, and the low res imagery doesn't help. I'm sure the product itself is delish, though. :-)

2019 Brewers are a victim of their own unrealistic expectations. They forgot that bullpen success does not typically carry over from one year to another, especially not in these days of low pitching loads when everyone sits at 96 MPH till their elbows explode. And they trusted too much in Jesús.

Also every call they made about the rotation initial out getters except for Davies and Woodruff has blown up in their faces.

[hoosier]

Also every call they made about the rotation initial out getters except for Davies and Woodruff has blown up in their faces.

That's the whole lesson of contemporary baseball: unless your bullpen features Mariano Rivera, Rollie Fingers, Goose Gossage, and Tug McGraw, throw out last year's stats when looking at next year! I think Melvin and Counsell have done a good job, and the rebuild was by all accounts a smashing success. Maybe the one re-sign they should have done last winter and didn't was Wade Miley. The rest of the pitching, as I see it, is just the year to year unpredictability of modern pitching. Counsell has exploited the benefits of extending the bullpen; well, this is the down side.

[texaspackerbacker]

We're blowing poor radagast's thread all to hell - I don't know why this Brewer stuff is here hahahahaha.

I have no quarrel with Melvin, but as I said in the Brewer forum, Counsel has screwed things up big time, and for the most part, I'm not talking about an occasional game with relievers from Inning One on. So many times, he has had somebody pitch one good inning, then pinch hit in a non-critical situation for him, then put somebody else in who gives away the game. One of the main ones I'm talking about is Guerra, who used to be a starter and ought to be perfectly capable of going several innings. Other times, a guy will obviously not have it that day, and rather than sensing that quickly like a good manager should, he'll leave them in for 4 or 5 batters, and the game is gone - like the Giants the other night. Sometimes misusing Hader is another item. The lousy base running that so often takes the Brewers out of promising situations is a whole other thing, and the buck stops with the manager on blame there. I have no idea if motivation is a problem or what the hell else might be, but something is, and I primarily blame Counsel for managing to lose with such a talented team.

[Radagast]

The need for speed can extend to Baseball as well. To debate the subject is admirable, but to deliberately post in threads to be disruptive, on a continuing basis, only reflects upon the poster. No one can expect to be agreed with all of the time, however no one appreciates being attacked for posting a thread related opinion.

Uncivil behavior has unfortunately become all too commonplace today and forums are no exception. When I witness bad behavior in a public place, it's easy to blame the poor behavior on the person doing it, but the real blame is that they were never taught to behave in the first place. Churches, social organisations (Scouting, Boys Clubs, etc.), and Little Leagues can teach good manners/character, yet less and less gain the life lessons that they teach. As a result, forums like this one can be assured of a steady supply of low character/uncivil posters.

[hoosier]

The need for speed can extend to Baseball as well. To debate the subject is admirable, but to deliberately post in threads to be disruptive, on a continuing basis, only reflects upon the poster. No one can expect to be agreed with all of the time, however no one appreciates being attacked for posting a thread related opinion.

Uncivil behavior has unfortunately become all too commonplace today and forums are no exception. When I witness bad behavior in a public place, it's easy to blame the poor behavior on the person doing it, but the real blame is that they were never taught to behave in the first place. Churches, social organisations (Scouting, Boys Clubs, etc.), and Little Leagues can teach good manners/character, yet less and less gain the life lessons that they teach. As a result, forums like this one can be assured of a steady supply of low character/uncivil posters.

Little League can teach character but it can also provide a theater for self-important parents who ruin the game for their kids (and everyone else's). Churches can teach character but they can also foster judgmental, pious flocks. Scouts...I don't have anything bad to say about Scouts. But seriously, Radagast, do you consider yourself a well mannered poster?

[Radagast]

Little League can teach character but it can also provide a theater for self-important parents who ruin the game for their kids (and everyone else's). Churches can teach character but they can also foster judgmental, pious flocks. Scouts...I don't have anything bad to say about Scouts. But seriously, Radagast, do you consider yourself a well mannered poster?

I value civility, but will stand up for myself and what I believe in. As for churches, learning the Bible is a foundation builder for the young, being judgemental is what adults do. That does not say I agree with the views of churches, but the bible itself has endured the test of time. My point was that character/good manners are learned early in life and too many receive little to no training at home or with a qualified youth organization.

[hoosier]

I have to say, you come across here as a scold.

[pbmax]

Gonna move the baseball commentary over to the Brewers thread.

[mraynrand]

Gonna move the baseball commentary over to the Brewers thread.

I was hoping it would continue until someone brought up Sixto Lezcano.

[pbmax]

I was hoping it would continue until someone brought up Sixto Lezcano.

Should have been a Packers DB.

[George Cumby]

Barkevious Mingo.

Drafted by the Browns. Now playing for the Seahags.

I just like to say the name, Barkevious Mingo.

Barkevious Mingo.Barkevious Mingo.Barkevious Mingo.Barkevious Mingo.Barkevious Mingo.Barkevious Mingo.Barkevious Mingo.Barkevious Mingo.Barkevious Mingo.Barkevious Mingo.Barkevious Mingo.Barkevious Mingo.Barkevious Mingo.Barkevious Mingo.Barkevious Mingo.Barkevious Mingo.Barkevious Mingo.Barkevious Mingo.Barkevious Mingo.Barkevious Mingo.Barkevious Mingo.Barkevious Mingo.Barkevious Mingo.Barkevious Mingo.Barkevious Mingo.Barkevious Mingo.Barkevious Mingo.Barkevious Mingo.Barkevious Mingo.Barkevious Mingo.

BAR KE VI OUS. MIN GO.

BARKEVIOUS MINGO

BARKEVIOUS MINGO

[esoxx]

I've always enjoyed saying the word chipotle. I could say it all day frankly.

[bobblehead]

They gave a lot of young, fast new players. Gute does pick more speed guys with MVS, Alexander, King and Savage all being elite speed guys. Let’s hope they pan out!

And yes. Speed will help if they’re good players!

King was drafted by TT. As was David Clowney. Josh Jones ran a 4.4 and DRandall ran a 4.4. I could go on all day.

Speed does not make a great player. The 40 is the most over rated stat in the NFL. Yay John Ross!!

[bobblehead]

Can you point out those worthless players that don't meet the skills test? As for being in shape, I can't recall the last time I saw an out of shape NFL player. Many areas of a players overall performance ratings begin with speed. They may be super strong, but if they have slow foot speed, then the rest is irrelevant.

Most positions do require speed as a 1st tier qualifier. Few positions can overlook a slow player. Even defensive linemen sometimes need to chase down a QB or RB. Yes tackling, catching, throwing, and other skills are very important, but without speed the execution of a player can fall short. If opposing RBs are turning the corner on you to extend for an additional 6 to 8 yards, then it's likely those monster strong LBs are too damn slow.

2 posts into this thread (including starting it) and you displayed more ignorance than I can handle in one offseason. No NFL player out of shape? Holy smokes.

[bobblehead]

There are not enough posters to get a true variety of opinions. Players like Fitzgerald are blessed with great coordination and yes quickness. Yet why do we say that this or that player has lost a half or full step? Speed does matter and so does quickness, but many a skilled player has been cut because another equally skilled player ran faster. I know that speed is a strong asset in football as well as in many other sports too.

As for patting myself on the back, that's not so. I simply try to post the best argument I can. As for support, this is the low season for posting to this forum.

You are correct, its low tide in football. Maybe I was too hard on you for trying to stir up some debate and you make a fair point in that things being equal speed matters. Let me support and disagree with things I've read so far. Gutes indeed has drafted speed early. TT drafted speed like crazy especially later in his tenure. Problem he had was he was trying to find gems later simply by drafting speed. He also tried to force drafting CB's in a draft without any (proving why BPA is the only way to go).

Before we crown Gutes the second coming lets all slow our roll and realize that right now we have seen one draft class hit the turf and it had exactly one good player so far with potential only from others. He has signed one big name FA that has played a down in GB and it was a huge disappointment. TT obviously slipped up in 2015, but I still maintain the real problem at the end was fat mike. He ran practices for shit, he game planned for shit and he lead for shit.

But to the original point. Speed is one of many assets. All things equal you want speed. But so many other things go into it as JH has pointed out. The desire to improve (MVS is working with randy moss and obviously wants to be great). Technical skills (Devante is a technician, not an athlete). Heart (Bakhtiari is a battler, he never gives up on a play). Intstincts (Aaron Jones sees holes before they open). Explosiveness (when Kenny Clarke hits you, you know it). Power/Balance (Linsley is always in position and a little bull).

After glimpsing some film, Gutes valued Savage for speed, yes, but his instincts and smarts really pop when you look for it. Alexander is fast, but he is another one who doesn't give up...he never thinks he is beat on a play til its over. Gary is a humble guy who did his job to the detriment of his stats. I hope the offseason positivity lasts, but speed alone does not make a football player...and TT drafted plenty of fast flops in his career. He also drafted a lot of James Jones, Bakhtiari, Bulaga, Lacy, Devonte...I could go on all day.

Edit: Gutes traded back rather than take my guy, Derwin James. Derwin was good in the 40 (but something like 9th among safeties). Derwin turned in a stellar rookie year and is on his way to being a top NFL safety. Maybe he should have looked at ALL the numbers and the on field production a bit.

[bobblehead]

For some odd reason I am the only member of the Oren Burks Fan Club. Wanna' be fan #2?

I'll chime in. He is working on the right thing. His biggest weakness was play recognition. He never knew what the hell was going on until too late. In college he was fast enough to get away with it most of the time (but the weakness was obvious. Wist bitched about it about 5 minutes after the pick). Several articles about him working on his eyes, his reads and his keys. We know he is agile for a guy his size. But that is useful if you are in quicksand for the first 2 seconds of the play.

[bobblehead]

As I was rewatching GB's 2016 Wildcard game vs Washington recently, a few things stood out.

First was James Jones and how his downfield threat opened up the middle of the field for shorter 10 to 15 yd gains.

Second was Rookie Preston Smith, now a Packer, tackled Aaron Rodgers in the End Zone for a 2 pt Safety in the 1st qtr.

Third was how an O-Line without Bakhtiari opened holes for Eddie Lacey and James Starks that resulted in a Lacy TD.

Last was how Peppers, Matthews, Perry and others put great pressure on Kirk Cousins.

I mentioned James Jones because his speed downfield was a real key asset for Rodgers and the GB offense. I'm hoping that MVS will be such a downfield threat this season for the Packers.

Ruining your own point. James Jones was slow. He ran like a 4.6. Absurd for a wideout. Posters were all convinced that David Clowney would be the real steal at WR from that draft.

[pbmax]

I disagree with this assessment of McCarthy's leadership. That was fine. His self-assessment of the offense was another matter entirely.

[pbmax]

James Jones got open deep because he had just enough quickness to get on a CB and was big enough to body him out of the way. Jordy was taller and maybe heavier, but Jones was a load.

If he hadn't developed a problem with over the shoulder catches at one point, he probably gets some Pro Bowl votes. And no one wanted to tangle with him over the middle. Remember that safety he flattened in Cincy?

[bobblehead]

I disagree with this assessment of McCarthy's leadership. That was fine. His self-assessment of the offense was another matter entirely.

Sitton upset me TRADE HIM. Randall pointed out my mistake TRADE HIM! Montgomery fumbled and we lost and I'm feeling the heat TRADE HIM!!!!

Edit: The groundskeeper asked me if we would win the super bowl FIRE HIM AND KILL HIS CHILDREN.

Wait....Wait...the ref in a high school basketball game missed a call....NUKE THE BUILDING!!!

[bobblehead]

James Jones got open deep because he had just enough quickness to get on a CB and was big enough to body him out of the way. Jordy was taller and maybe heavier, but Jones was a load.

If he hadn't developed a problem with over the shoulder catches at one point, he probably gets some Pro Bowl votes. And no one wanted to tangle with him over the middle. Remember that safety he flattened in Cincy?

I remember the preseason game where the DB crushed him and sent his helmet flying. DB stayed down. Jones ran for a TD....with no helmet.

[pbmax]

Sitton upset me TRADE HIM. Randall pointed out my mistake TRADE HIM! Montgomery fumbled and we lost and I'm feeling the heat TRADE HIM!!!!

Edit: The groundskeeper asked me if we would win the super bowl FIRE HIM AND KILL HIS CHILDREN.

Wait....Wait...the ref in a high school basketball game missed a call....NUKE THE BUILDING!!!

I agree with Sitton but I think that was a group decision to give Taylor one more camp to prove himself, otherwise they go the approved McGinn route and deal him for draft picks in March. So I don't think this was a snit, but it was a poorly executed decision.

Monty wrote his own check out of town but I think this was Gute telling McCarthy to play Jones.

In general, this is going to happen with coaches are are bred and trained to be control freaks. McCarthy wasn't too bad in this area (see Patricia, Matt). But it did get worse after Ted was faltering and M3 got his huge melon into the room.

[mraynrand]

Also, it’s either true or false that Stubby’s hand was forced on the Randall issue by team leaders. They wanted him gone during the season and Stubbers asked them to wait until the end because they lacked bodies.

Every coach will have some personality conflicts. If this is as bad as it was/all the examples for 13 years, that’s really nothing much.

[pbmax]

Also, it’s either true or false that Stubby’s hand was forced on the Randall issue by team leaders. They wanted him gone during the season and Stubbers asked them to wait until the end because they lacked bodies.

Every coach will have some personality conflicts. If this is as bad as it was/all the examples for 13 years, that’s really nothing much.

I would love to know the story. But I wonder of Randall's desire to play safety (if that itself was true then) ruffled some feathers among the detritus at the Packers safety position. Randall wasn't completely nuts, though he lacked some self control. He called out Jones' poor play. But this could be part of the agenda pushing as well.