ILB: Filling the open slot ?

[Radagast]

With Oren Burks injured (again), it appears that a partner for Blake Martinez at Inside Linebacker is up for some serious competition. The test, IMO, will come down to several factors.

1. Size : Being big enough to survive the collisions that an ILB must endure from week to week is a prime consideration. At 6'1" and 240 lbs., Ty Summers appears to fit the minimum requirements.

2. Speed : From covering passes to stuffing the run, an ILB will be required to go from covering on a pass play to motoring to the sideline to stop a RB from turning the corner for extra yards.

3. Mental Quickness : An ILB must make very quick decisions on weather to drop into coverage or to step into a hole to stuff a run or etc. Good coaching can get a player from the college level to the pro level. The speed of the game requires faster correct decisions.

4. Agility/Quickness : This category ranges from footwork to handwork to hip orientation. IMO, this too can be coached. Being more savvy about playing the ILB position is directly proportional to a players quickness.

5. Strength : An ILB in the NFL is not a player that can be pushed around. Being in football shape is to be expected, but ILB must possess great arm/hand strength. That said, which GB LBs (aside from Blake Martinez) is a true "Beast"?


The position looks to be an open battle at this point. Might one of the OLBs be moved to the inside position? Will Summers or Crawford or Bolton step up and take over the position? Might it be a photo finish with one wining by a facemask? Is Gute currently searching for a veteran FA to bring in as a ILB starter? We will need to keep a sharper eye upon this position as cut day draws ever nearer.

Let us discuss this topic with the civility, good humor, and seriousness that it deserves. The ILB position can't just be Blake Martinez, no matter how good he is. Who should join him at ILB?



:huh:

[Cheesehead Craig]

For right now, I think it will be Summers but I fully expect to see Gute trade for a more experienced ILB. The depth is too thin to keep the status quo on the roster. I don't think they should wait for roster cut-downs to make a move to sign someone, as I'd rather the new guy get some exposure to the system prior to the season.

[mraynrand]

It's not gonna be Crawford or Sheldon. Burks is out, even if the Pec isn't a total rip. So it's between Bolton and Summers. 7th round pick or RFA. Summers has speed but took false steps. But it's real early. Open competition; we'll see what happens. Might bring someone in. Raven Green will be the Josh Jones after he's dealt with, and after all, nickel is base.

[Radagast]

Kirk Olivadotti, the Packers ILB Coach, may well face his greatest challenge in coaching as he must first do his best to teach and develop his players. Yet in the final analysis he must recommend who he believes should start, who should be the backup/s and who should be cut. Working with the Outside Linebackers Coach Mike Smith and his players, Olivadotti must train his crew to work in tandem with the OLBs. Who works best to fill the coaches with confidence will make the cut.

[texaspackerbacker]

Summers looked good, but Bolton looked even better in the first preseason game. Both seem a lot more instinctive than Burks seemed when he was healthy last year. It's hard to tell against Houston, though, being the first game. They had no decent runners and Webb was shaky at best as a passer. He sure could scramble, and he made Bolton look really bad once, and I think Summers too. I think it's between those two. Crawford looked awful. Hopefully, Summers, Bolton, and others can adequately replace Crawford in kick coverage.

[Radagast]

GB may well be looking at making a trade for a proven veteran ILB. Who or what could GB trade for such a player? I'd never trade away a 1st or 2nd round draft pick for anything less than Pro Bowl CB or a Left OT. What would you trade for a great ILB?

[mraynrand]

I would trade the rights to All Pro WR Jeff Janis to Tampa Bay for Devin White.

[mraynrand]

Is Manti Te'o still available?

[bobblehead]

My guess is that Raven Greene will fill the position on the majority of snaps. In run scenarios they may get creative standing Z up near the line, or Gary, or could be anyone really...including summers, bolton, crawford depending on who makes the cut.

[Patler]

Is Manti Te'o still available?

He is, and would be a perfect fit for Green Bay, as he seems to miss at least 5 or 6 games each year due to injuries, often from a recurring foot problem. However, he wouldn't be an ILB for the Packers. Instead he would fill the Will-he-play Linebacker position, a special position previously designed for Nick Perry (inside/outside being irrelevant to Will-he-play position.)

[mraynrand]

He is, and would be a perfect fit for Green Bay, as he seems to miss at least 5 or 6 games each year due to injuries, often from a recurring foot problem. However, he wouldn't be an ILB for the Packers. Instead he would fill the Will-he-play Linebacker position, a special position previously designed for Nick Perry (inside/outside being irrelevant to Will-he-play position.)

lol.

"Will-he-play"

:-D:-D

all time classic post

[Joemailman]

Last year the Packers traded Lenzy Pipkins for Antonio Morrison after Jake Ryan got hurt. We'll probably see something like that.

2 years in a row Wist's least favorite ILB gets hurt in preseason. Is The Curse Of Wist now a thing?

[mraynrand]

Last year the Packers traded Lenzy Pipkins for Antonio Morrison after Jake Ryan got hurt. We'll probably see something like that.

2 years in a row Wist's least favorite ILB gets hurt in preseason. Is The Curse Of Wist now a thing?

Well, you know what they say: Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action.

[pbmax]

He is, and would be a perfect fit for Green Bay, as he seems to miss at least 5 or 6 games each year due to injuries, often from a recurring foot problem. However, he wouldn't be an ILB for the Packers. Instead he would fill the Will-he-play Linebacker position, a special position previously designed for Nick Perry (inside/outside being irrelevant to Will-he-play position.)


lol.

"Will-he-play"

:-D:-D

all time classic post

Insiders call that the WHiP linebacker spot.

[pbmax]

Well, you know what they say: Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action.

So wist wasn't out east, he is setting up trip lines in De Pere for Martinez?

[mraynrand]

So wist wasn't out east, he is setting up trip lines in De Pere for Martinez?

More like:

https://36readyblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/goldfinger-tania-mallet_as_tilly-masterson-with-ar7-rifle-v2.jpg

[RashanGary]

My guess is that Raven Greene will fill the position on the majority of snaps. In run scenarios they may get creative standing Z up near the line, or Gary, or could be anyone really...including summers, bolton, crawford depending on who makes the cut.

I was thinking something like this too. Down the road, if we stumble into a young safety so good we can’t keep him off the field, I could see Amos play that LB spot too. 6’ damn near 220 and reliable against the run and pass. I don’t think that’s a right now solution tho, we just don’t have a starting caliber safety right now besides Amos and I think Savage will benefit if Amos stays put for this first year.

[pbmax]

More like:
]


Maybe all the hamstring injuries mean he has to get the thing sighted.

[pbmax]

My guess is that Raven Greene will fill the position on the majority of snaps. In run scenarios they may get creative standing Z up near the line, or Gary, or could be anyone really...including summers, bolton, crawford depending on who makes the cut.

Agree, they might simply spend even less time in base. However, someone has to go in when they are heavy and that will be a backer by build at least.

[hoosier]

But wasn't Burks supposed to be the LB with speed and quickness to cover RBs and TEs while also providing a little more bulk than your average converted safety? His loss, it seems to me, will be felt less when facing heavy formations and more against multiple receiver.

[pbmax]

But wasn't Burks supposed to be the LB with speed and quickness to cover RBs and TEs while also providing a little more bulk than your average converted safety? His loss, it seems to me, will be felt less when facing heavy formations and more against multiple receiver.

Sure. But the odds of finding a replacement with the same physical dimensions are low at this point. So someone bigger and slower (like Morrison last year) will get the base package snaps while someone smaller and niftier gets the sub package snaps. I just bet they prefer going light and encouraging the run rather than encouraging a play action pass against a Morrison type.

[Radagast]

But wasn't Burks supposed to be the LB with speed and quickness to cover RBs and TEs while also providing a little more bulk than your average converted safety? His loss, it seems to me, will be felt less when facing heavy formations and more against multiple receiver.


Indeed, both the ILB and the OLB positions have evolved over time. On most teams an ILB serves as the "Field General" for the defense. He must play both the run as well as cover receivers too. If he is too light he could get nullified by heavier OL on running plays. If he is too heavy receivers might leave him in the dust when he tries to cover them.

IMO, the ILB and the Safety positions might be the most complex two positions on a teams defense. A player that lacks any of the skill factors the positions require will find defenses taking full advantage of that weakness. Summers seems to have the size and the speed to play the position at the pro level, but is he coachable enough to be ready to start in Week 1 vs Da Bears? I believe that it is mostly a matter of the increased speed of the pro game and the need to make equally fast decisions that may be Summers challenge right now. The Trainers can build up his strength and agility training can improve his footwork as well as his handwork, but teaching Summers to react on instinct to counter opposing offenses is a job that his coaches are responsible for. If their reports on his progress are encouraging, then Gute may be more focused on other position players instead of trying to add another LB to the team.

Much of the information on players is considered "Top Secret" and is treated that way. We as fans must rely on reports from reporters, fans, and any other source that can shine some light on players. At the same time, opposing teams are also diligently looking for any scrap of info on players in an ongoing effort to gain any kind of advantage on gameday. I might be as slight as a player is a millisecond slower moving laterally to his left over moving laterally to his right. Another might be that a player likes to bite on a L.Head bob on crossing pattern coverage.

I hope that Oren Burks fully recovers, but in the meantime the ILB position needs a great player. I hope that it does not become GB's weak point on defense.



:flag:

[mraynrand]

Agree, they might simply spend even less time in base.

less time in nickel?

[hoosier]

Sure. But the odds of finding a replacement with the same physical dimensions are low at this point. So someone bigger and slower (like Morrison last year) will get the base package snaps while someone smaller and niftier gets the sub package snaps. I just bet they prefer going light and encouraging the run rather than encouraging a play action pass against a Morrison type.

True. And there is also a difference between a three LB set with Burks in the middle and a similar set with a converted safety in the middle. My guess is that they are going to feel Burks's loss most in those formations where he would have been the only guy in the middle. In other words, the difference between a good Burks and a converted safety is greater than the diff between Burks and a slower, bigger guy like Morrison.

[pbmax]

less time in nickel?

:D

Less time in standard 3-4. Could be only short yardage or certain game situations (like Packers behind and the opposing offense running off clock).

Nickel could be anything as they match personnel but might expect a run depending on tendencies.

Dime probably is all small ball. But without Burks and assuming Bolton or the other guy (Summers?) really break through, I think the percentage of nickel and dime and what did they call 7 DBs (quarter?) increases.

[Teamcheez1]

Whatever Burks injury is, the Packers are now cautiously saying they don't think it is a long term injury.

[Radagast]

Whatever Burks injury is, the Packers are now cautiously saying they don't think it is a long term injury.

Oren Burks is believed to have a torn pectoral muscle. These muscles, located in the chest and shoulders, work to power the movement of the shoulder/arm. I don't know just how long it will require for Burks to heal, but he has become an injury liability and needs to be replaced. I wish Burks all of the best, but his current and past injuries have become a piece of excess baggage that the Packers can't afford.

I can't say just who will start with Martinez at ILB as the reg season starts. "Gute" may well already have plans to secure FA veteran to replace Burks or He and LaFleur may have full confidence in an ILB already on the Packer roster. Depending upon who fills the starting slot, the Packer Defense may well have to adjust to include the play of a new ILB. What those adjustments might be will have to depend upon the strength/weaknesses of the new starting ILB.

[mraynrand]

I don't know just how long it will require for Burks to heal, but he has become an injury liability and needs to be replaced. I wish Burks all of the best, but his current and past injuries have become a piece of excess baggage that the Packers can't afford. ILB. What those adjustments might be will have to depend upon the strength/weaknesses of the new starting ILB.

Since you don't know how long it will take to heal, how can you affirmatively say he needs to be replaced? What if it's just two weeks?

[hoosier]

All I know is, Burks ain't exactly at the top of the pec-ing order.

[George Cumby]

All I know is, Burks ain't exactly at the top of the pec-ing order.

It would seem finding a suitable replacement is a pressing matter.

[Radagast]

Since you don't know how long it will take to heal, how can you affirmatively say he needs to be replaced? What if it's just two weeks?

Burks, like Perry and past others, possibly through no fault of their own, are injury prone. Bulaga might fall into this category as well. Burks may well turn out to be a pro-bowler someday, but for now he is constantly getting injuries that keep him off of the football field. I empathise with him, but for me, he's not working out for the Packers. He can't practice or play and even if he were healed by a miracle today, I'd be taking bets on just how long until he got another bad injury. Like I said before, it's not really his fault, but for some players injuries just follow them. Releasing him now will give the other ILB starter want to be's more of a goal to work for.

Were it my decision to make, I'd release Orin Burks and BANISH mraynrand to a 3 mile hole in the ground where no internet was possible.



:butt:

[mraynrand]

Burks, like Perry and past others, possibly through no fault of their own, are injury prone. Bulaga might fall into this category as well.

I think your sample size on Burks is too small right now. Also, I doubt your clairvoyance. Injury-prone claims are at best an inexact science, and at worst fall under the purview of Jean Dixon or Sylvia Browne. Maybe wait a week or two before you cast him off.

Recall Packers like as Steve Atkins, Mark D'Onofrio, John Anderson, Mike Flanagan, Brian Williams.

In any case, even healthy Burks may not be a player.

[wist43]

But wasn't Burks supposed to be the LB with speed and quickness to cover RBs and TEs while also providing a little more bulk than your average converted safety? His loss, it seems to me, will be felt less when facing heavy formations and more against multiple receiver.

Losing Burks will help - he can't play.

The little he played the other night was simply more of what he showed last year and in college... the kid has no instincts for the game of football. None.

[mraynrand]

The little he played the other night was simply more of what he showed last year and in college... the kid has no instincts for the game of football. None.

This is just pure hyperbole. He had about six plays, and was pretty much fine, including making the tackle on the QB where he got hurt. I saw a hesitation on one pass coverage and a slow disengage from a lineman who got on him at the second level. Otherwise he was just fine.

[wist43]

This is just pure hyperbole. He had about six plays, and was pretty much fine, including making the tackle on the QB where he got hurt. I saw a hesitation on one pass coverage and a slow disengage from a lineman who got on him at the second level. Otherwise he was just fine.

No, he was doing the same things in his limited playing time the other night that he had been doing in college.

Bad angles, poor diagnosis, poor awareness. Have you ever heard of coaches trying to get a player to work on his "eyes"??

Don't know what to tell you beyond the fact that he looks the part physically and athletically, but he's just not a football player.

[mraynrand]

No, he was doing the same things in his limited playing time the other night that he had been doing in college.

Bad angles, poor diagnosis, poor awareness. Have you ever heard of coaches trying to get a player to work on his "eyes"??

Don't know what to tell you beyond the fact that he looks the part physically and athletically, but he's just not a football player.

In six plays, all I saw was him leap early on the TE, but then he recovered for pretty decent coverage. Also, he let a lineman get his hands on him too long. You must have been watching something else.

[Radagast]

wist43, it reads to me like you have also been "mooned" by the WV moron. If you were to figuratively take mraynrand down to the whipping post for a workout, I'm quite sure that I and others would enjoy seeing the dink get neutered. From what I've read and heard about you, your highly qualified for such a mission and would leave few scraps behind.

I might attempt it myself, but I know when to leave the stage and let the star have the full spotlight. I will also understand if you have no interest in besting a fool.


:duel:

[mraynrand]

wist43, it reads to me like you have also been "mooned" by the WV moron. If you were to figuratively take mraynrand down to the whipping post for a workout, I'm quite sure that I and others would enjoy seeing the dink get neutered. From what I've read and heard about you, your highly qualified for such a mission and would leave few scraps behind.

I might attempt it myself, but I know when to leave the stage and let the star have the full spotlight. I will also understand if you have no interest in besting a fool.


:duel:

You could try answering my challenge instead of engaging in cheap personal attacks. It’s possible you can defend your perspective.

[hoosier]

Problem with the Meadow: never there when you need it.

[Carolina_Packer]

Well, you know what they say: Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action.

It's a Wistery, or at the very least Wisterious. It's leaving me feeling Wistful.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Problem with the Meadow: never there when you need it.

That's because skin got it banished to the Garbage Can.

[wist43]

wist43, it reads to me like you have also been "mooned" by the WV moron. If you were to figuratively take mraynrand down to the whipping post for a workout, I'm quite sure that I and others would enjoy seeing the dink get neutered. From what I've read and heard about you, your highly qualified for such a mission and would leave few scraps behind.

I might attempt it myself, but I know when to leave the stage and let the star have the full spotlight. I will also understand if you have no interest in besting a fool.


:duel:


You could try answering my challenge instead of engaging in cheap personal attacks. It’s possible you can defend your perspective.

No idea what u guys are on about. After school. Playground. Single shot pistols (the old patch and ball type) 20 paces??

[wist43]

In six plays, all I saw was him leap early on the TE, but then he recovered for pretty decent coverage. Also, he let a lineman get his hands on him too long. You must have been watching something else.

The "oh shit" coverage he didn't have on that TE is the best example. He didn't recover - he was beat.

On that play he had two responsibilities 1) cover the TE if it's a pass 2) shed the TE, leverage the RB inside, and make the tackle or ensure that the RB is funneled to his teammates if it's a run.

He accomplished none of that b/c he didn't know what was going on, and he didn't carry out his assignment.

Before he knows if it's run or pass, he needs to engage that TE, and control him within the 5 yd chuck zone. While engaged, that is when he needs to make his run/pass read. If he holds the TE up, and it is a pass, he has disrupted the route, thrown the timing off, and put himself in tight coverage to either bat the ball down, or force the QB to look for a better option.

If it is a run - he needs to fulfill his responsibility to leverage the RB inside, and go from there.

As it was, Burks never engaged the TE, he simply looked into the backfield as the TE ran past him, until the "oh shit" moment dawned on him, and then he turned and chased - already beaten. Easy completion.

[mraynrand]

The "oh shit" coverage he didn't have on that TE is the best example. He didn't recover - he was beat.

On that play he had two responsibilities 1) cover the TE if it's a pass 2) shed the TE, leverage the RB inside, and make the tackle or ensure that the RB is funneled to his teammates if it's a run.

weird, because that's exactly what he did, but he was a little slow getting into the pattern with the TE because he was making the read prepping to 'leverage' the RB inside. He was right there on a good pass.

Plus, this was one of six plays, and was the negative play. The rest were fine, including the tackle of the QB where he got hurt.

[mraynrand]

No idea what u guys are on about.

this was my comment

I think your sample size on Burks is too small right now. Also, I doubt your clairvoyance. Injury-prone claims are at best an inexact science, and at worst fall under the purview of Jean Dixon or Sylvia Browne. Maybe wait a week or two before you cast him off.

Recall Packers like as Steve Atkins, Mark D'Onofrio, John Anderson, Mike Flanagan, Brian Williams.

In any case, even healthy Burks may not be a player.

[wist43]

weird, because that's exactly what he did, but he was a little slow getting into the pattern with the TE because he was leveraging the RB inside. He was right there on a good pass.

He never engaged the TE.

[mraynrand]

He never engaged the TE.

he should have. As I pointed out, it was his negative play, but he still did some good things on that play. He has some recovery time to look at film. I bet he can watch all six plays fifty times each.

[hoosier]

That's because skin got it banished to the Garbage Can.

Oh yeah. It was cocked and loaded, I forgot about that.

[bobblehead]

No, he was doing the same things in his limited playing time the other night that he had been doing in college.

Bad angles, poor diagnosis, poor awareness. Have you ever heard of coaches trying to get a player to work on his "eyes"??

Don't know what to tell you beyond the fact that he looks the part physically and athletically, but he's just not a football player.

I'm backing wist on this one. Either a guy can identify and chase down the ball or he can't. The eyes thing is new to me, and I did say at least they were working on his weakness, but I haven't ever seen it "fixed" to my knowledge. The reason I don't value speed at ILB is because instincts trump speed every time.

I am much more patient waiting on King to heal than Burks...at least King is good when he plays.

[mraynrand]

I'm backing wist on this one. Either a guy can identify and chase down the ball or he can't. The eyes thing is new to me, and I did say at least they were working on his weakness, but I haven't ever seen it "fixed" to my knowledge. The reason I don't value speed at ILB is because instincts trump speed every time.

I am much more patient waiting on King to heal than Burks...at least King is good when he plays.

Neither has played all that much - 11 versus 4 starts (King, Burks). Burks also was transitioning his position. I'm inclined to believe Wist is right about the guy too, especially the way he was embarrassed by 'Cheat, and other missteps, but he's pretty raw and some coaches had remarked that he'd improved. The surprising thing was the sense from coaches that he was considered an integral part of the D. Maybe that was just blowing smoke. The injury will probably put him on the back burner again, maybe for the whole season.