Never too early 2020 NFL Draft Thread

[run pMc]

With receiver depth a plus in this draft I have starting looking at names a little deeper down the list. I haven't made any constructive lists at this point but there are couple of interesting prospects that don't yet have a first round grade.

Denzel Mims WR Baylor
Tyler Johnson WR Minnesota
Micheal Pittman JR WR USC
Van Jefferson WR Florida
Isaiah Hodges WR Oregon St.
KJ Hill WR Ohio St.

I don't know that any of them deserve a R1 grade. I'd put them all in the R2-5 range. Van Jefferson is an interesting guy, good route runner, bloodlines, and is probably faster than people think. I'm a fan of Tyler Johnson too.
I mentioned this before as well -- but I've enjoyed watching some videos of the JD Spielman kid -- he destroyed WI in 2018 (9-209-1) and the OSU (11-200-1) year before as a freshman. He's undersized and that will knock him way down the board, but he can run.

There are quite a few good WRs in this draft, so I wouldn't be surprised if Gute goes after a position of higher scarcity (ILB, OT) and picks a couple of WRs in the mid-rounds where there's good value.
Another thing I've considered is if you look at the GB cap, what if they sign Bulaga but let Linsley go after this next season and draft his successor at C instead? Is Lucas Patrick that person already? Bahk and Linsley's contracts are up next year, and I'm thinking they only want to tie up so much of the cap to the OL.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/green-bay-packers/yearly/cap/

[Joemailman]

Hey Badger fans,

Bill Huber says Zack Baun projects as ILB in the NFL and has him ranked #4 at that position. https://www.si.com/nfl/packers/news/packers-positions-of-need-top-10-inside-linebackers

Does he have the athleticism to cover?

Edit:

https://dairylandexpress.com/2020/01/08/wisconsin-football-zack-bauns-draft-stock-rise/


n the NFL, Baun will be best suited for rushing the passer from a stand-up position but if teams want him to play more as an off-ball linebacker, he is very capable of that as well. According to Pro Football Focus, Baun has dropped into coverage on over 80 snaps in both 2018 and 2019 and received coverage grades of 81.3 and 90.0, respectively. And that versatility is why he will be coveted.

As the draft process continues to unfold, Baun is someone who is going to shine. He will score very well in his various workouts, not to mention that he has the attitude and work ethic that every NFL team desires. Those traits coupled with the film he’s put out and the numbers he’s produced will lead to Zack Baun flying up draft boards in the upcoming months.

https://withthefirstpick.com/2019/12/03/2020-nfl-draft-zack-baun-presents-intriguing-value-middle-rounds/5/


When looking at and scouting the linebacker position, the main traits this writer looks for are: a player’s ability to tackle, how well he reads and reacts to what is happening in front of him, his coverage skills, pursuit ability, and how well they excel as a pass rusher. Baun has shown the ability to excel in these skills of an off-ball linebacker.

Where Baun really excels, especially for an edge rusher, is in pass coverage; on both of his interceptions in his career, Baun has shown great range in zone coverage, good ball skills, and good hip movement to track the quarterback’s eyes. This clip below demonstrates Baun’s ability to be an efficient asset in coverage.

https://twitter.com/IKE_Badgers/status/1183141979523297280?s=20
We have already tackled Baun’s ability to rush the passes in depth, since he is technically considered an edge prospect. His pursuit is also excellent from the edge as he can get parallel down the line and track ball carriers to the ground, and as a tackler, there are no red flags there either.

The one area of Baun’s game that may take some time to adjust is his ability to read and react from the second level instead of off the edge. However, there has been another player from Wisconsin who entered the draft and has since become a Pro Bowl linebacker in Joe Schobert from the Cleveland Browns; this seems like a great pro comparison for Baun as he prepares for the next step of his career.

[Bretsky]

I'm not sure he can cover but I like his Watt Like Tenacity on the field and feel like he can be an effective Pro.

ONE GUY who I'd love to see in Green Bay is ILB Chris Orr. Incredibly hard worker/leader/student of the game/insane film studier. The anti's will say he lacks natural ability. He's the Anti Gary; he plays way better than his measurables. He'll go late rounds; I think he finds a home and since our ILB's suck I'd love it to be here. Part of me wants to compare him to Schobert; but
if I"m being honest I'm surprised what a good pro he's become. Also wish we could get BADASS too but don't think GB would go that high for an OL this year. He is a badass and love how his name is pronounced.

ORR and CEEPHUS.............That would make my Draft Day :)

[wthigoot]

Arash Markazi @ArashMarkazi
The stage for the 2020 NFL Draft in Las Vegas will be on the water at the Fountains of Bellagio. The players will be transported to the stage by boat.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EO0yJWkUEAY0U86?format=jpg&name=small


GOOD, I CAN DO SOMETHING ELSE WITH MY NIGHT SINCE I WON'T BE WATCHING THIS

No need for the boat - put the clear plastic walkway right at the waterline so that players can "walk on water" to get to the stage. And yes, Evel Knievel (or I guess Robbie Knievel now) jumping the stage would be great.

Then we can stop watching and continue to research all 5 of the 6-7 round picks that Gutey has acquired.

We will find that dominant nose tackle from THE Southwest Arkansas College of Engineering and Automatic Transmission Repair.

[pbmax]

Love the SWACEATERS!

[Deputy Nutz]

I think Baun is a bit undersized as even a stand up edge rusher, doesn't mean he can't do it in the NFL but scouts might think he projects at inside linebacker for two reason. The might feel like he needs a bit more protection and might not have the anchor to hold the edge, and secondly Schobert was an outside linebacker at Wisco and he is now a Mike in Cleveland's 4-3 defense. Maybe they see the comparison. I don't. If Baun can cover than he can work as a Will in a 4-3, or strictly a pass rusher which means he would probably play quite a bit in a 3-4 scheme.

Also, I am a bit of a homer for Chris Orr. What is going to hurt him is that he is under 6'0" tall. There have been some greats at the MLB position that have been under that mark, but teams still look at height and if you are under 6'0" it is a disadvantage.

[Joemailman]

Still a long way to go, but from the sites I've looked at, seems unlikely Chris Orr will be drafted. Sure to be a priority UDFA if that's the case.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Jenkins was a Mike Sherman acquisition.

Cue Tank in 3, 2, 1...

Word.

[ThunderDan]

No need for the boat - put the clear plastic walkway right at the waterline so that players can "walk on water" to get to the stage. And yes, Evel Knievel (or I guess Robbie Knievel now) jumping the stage would be great.

Then we can stop watching and continue to research all 5 of the 6-7 round picks that Gutey has acquired.

We will find that dominant nose tackle from THE Southwest Arkansas College of Engineering and Automatic Transmission Repair.

The Bellagio fountain isn't much deeper than 3 feet. Going to need boats that are surface huggers. Probably can't go lower than 6 inches or so before they would hit the water jets attached to the bottom.

[Deputy Nutz]

Still a long way to go, but from the sites I've looked at, seems unlikely Chris Orr will be drafted. Sure to be a priority UDFA if that's the case.

I looked at a couple of sites and many haven't updated his profile since the fall of 2019, I am sure they are waiting until after the combine. He had a hell of a statistical season, he is active and can excel when he is moving down hill. Like I said before, he constantly played behind other NFL caliber talent at linebacker at Wisco and a knee injury his sophomore year also slowed his access to the field. Coverage wise, Orr has had some big plays in coverage, he has good hands and understands where his drops need to be in relation to routes. Above all Orr plays a pretty full throttle violent game of football sometimes to his own detriment.

The biggest concern with Orr is going to be his height, overall athleticism, and his ability to finish plays when he puts himself in position. He can get mixed up on his reads at times which cause him some static when he needs to fight off blocks, this probably happens more than it should.

[run pMc]

He would likely have to be a special teams demon, which wouldn't shock me, to make a team. If he's listed at 6'0" 225 he's basically a big safety. Not sure how well he runs or covers, haven't watched him TBH, but if Nutz thinks he can do it he might make it in subpackages or as a backup a la Joe Thomas.

[Bretsky]

He's gotta add 10lbs of muscle

[Joemailman]

How does Orr compare to Chris Borland? Borland was another guy who didn't have great measurables.

[run pMc]

How does Orr compare to Chris Borland? Borland was another guy who didn't have great measurables.

IIRC Borland was bigger - LOL at the T-Rex arms comment.
http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/chris-borland?id=2543772

They have him listed at 5'11" 248.

[Bretsky]

How does Orr compare to Chris Borland? Borland was another guy who didn't have great measurables.


Honestly Borland was a better all around player. I love Orr; but he's just not as good as Borland was

[wthigoot]

Love the SWACEATERS!

LOL hadn't noticed the cool acronym.

Pretty sure Deacon Jones went there for a year before transferring to THE Mississippi Vocational College (MVSU). Or maybe not.

[mraynrand]

Love the SWACEATERS!

That's where Jace Sternberger attended school, in a James Joyce novel.

[pbmax]

LOL hadn't noticed the cool acronym.

Pretty sure Deacon Jones went there for a year before transferring to THE Mississippi Vocational College (MVSU). Or maybe not.

I hope he attended Mars University with Otis Sistrunk for his PhD.

[pbmax]

That's where Jace Sternberger attended school, in a James Joyce novel.

What do we have for his nicknames so far?

Stormbringer

Stonebreaker

Missing one I think.

[mraynrand]

What do we have for his nicknames so far?

Stormbringer

Stonebreaker

Missing one I think.

Stromberg

"you recognize that variety, of course?"
https://cdn2-www.comingsoon.net/assets/uploads/2015/09/Karl-Stromberg.jpg

[pbmax]

Stromberg

"you recognize that variety, of course?"
https://cdn2-www.comingsoon.net/assets/uploads/2015/09/Karl-Stromberg.jpg


Jace, first of his name, Stormbringer, master of barometric pressure, Breaker of Stones, Stromberg of Spectre, bringer of anarchy.

[call_me_ishmael]

Stormbreaker.

[esoxx]

Firestarter.

[run pMc]

hopefully not turdberger

[pbmax]

hopefully not turdberger

Turdburglar is Najeh Davenport’s title.

[Joemailman]

3 round mock draft. http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001101022/article/threeround-2020-nfl-mock-draft-10-dolphins-pass-on-tua

Packers picks:

#30 Kenneth Murray - LB - Oklahoma

#62 Jalen Reagor - WR - TCU

#94 - Ben Bartch - OT - Saint John's

I would be ecstatic with the 1st 2 picks. Would even be willing to trade up a bit for Murray. Don't know anything about Bartch at this point.

Bretsky - Lamb is the 4th pick. :)

[Bretsky]

3 round mock draft. http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001101022/article/threeround-2020-nfl-mock-draft-10-dolphins-pass-on-tua

Packers picks:

#30 Kenneth Murray - LB - Oklahoma

#62 Jalen Reagor - WR - TCU

#94 - Ben Bartch - OT - Saint John's

I would be ecstatic with the 1st 2 picks. Would even be willing to trade up a bit for Murray. Don't know anything about Bartch at this point.

Bretsky - Lamb is the 4th pick. :)




YIKES...#4....well we can't go that high.

I'd be thrilled with pick #30 and OK with Raeger at 62.... ....and Ceephus.

[Joemailman]

YIKES...#4....well we can't go that high.

I'd be thrilled with pick #30 and OK with Raeger at 62.... ....and Ceephus.

I'm not thinking he'll go #4, but he'll go too high for the Packers to trade up.

[Zool]

If Judy is there at pick 11 or 12, think they would shoot for the moon?

[Joemailman]

If Judy is there at pick 11 or 12, think they would shoot for the moon?

They would need to trade pretty much their whole draft to move up that high, unless the trade also involved a pretty good player. What's this fascination people have with trading up to get the top WR in the draft? How many Super Bowl rings does Randy Moss have? Or Larry Fitzgerald? Or A.J. Green? Or Julio Jones? This team already has Davante Adams. They don't need somebody better than Adams. They need someone to complement Adams. This draft is full of guys like that.

[Bretsky]

With Rodgers and time running out there is urgency to get the real deal for receivers.

SERIOUS QUESTION

What type of value do you think we could get for Rashan Gary in a trade ? I know it would never happen because GM's dont want to eat crow this early, but could you package pick 30 and Gary to get up to 10 ?

[pbmax]

Please just draft Greg Jennings in Round 2.

[Joemailman]

With Rodgers and time running out there is urgency to get the real deal for receivers.

SERIOUS QUESTION

What type of value do you think we could get for Rashan Gary in a trade ? I know it would never happen because GM's dont want to eat crow this early, but could you package pick 30 and Gary to get up to 10 ?

No. Teams don't normally trade guys they just drafted. The moment you announce Gary is available for trade, you are basically admitting he is a disapppintment. That automatically reduces his trade value. Better to hang onto him and hope he develops.

[pbmax]

No. Teams don't normally trade guys they just drafted. The moment you announce Gary is available for trade, you are basically admitting he is a disapppintment. That automatically reduces his trade value. Better to hang onto him and hope he develops.

Unless your GM has fallen in love with a guy he did not get to select in a previous draft (see Wolf, Ron).

If that were the case here, the smitten GM would be calling the Packers though.

[run pMc]

Unless your GM has fallen in love with a guy he did not get to select in a previous draft (see Wolf, Ron).

If that were the case here, the smitten GM would be calling the Packers though.

Or you draft Rosen and then pick Murray. Agree they wouldn't get a lot for Gary. I don't think packaging him with #30 would get you to #10. Maybe #15, but I don't see the point. There's plenty of WR depth outside of Lamb & Jeudy.

[Deputy Nutz]

No. Teams don't normally trade guys they just drafted. The moment you announce Gary is available for trade, you are basically admitting he is a disappointment. That automatically reduces his trade value. Better to hang onto him and hope he develops.


I agree with you, and then I see poor Josh Rosen with his clipboard and baseball cap, who in two years is going to have a team give up on him and draft a QB within the top 5 picks of the draft.


The Packers with Wolf did draft Fred Vinson, and trade him the next season for Ahman Green, but I don't think that had anything to do with them giving up on the defensive back, they just really needed a running back. The Packers traded a second pick for a 3rd round pick. The Packers were also in reasonable shape at corner because Vinson was the 2nd out of three cornerbacks drafted by Wolf in the 1999 draft. Mike McKenzie who was drafted in the third round was already a starter and the first pick Antwan Edwards was bit of a disappointment but worked himself on to the field as a nickel and then a safety. Vinson after the trade submarined his career as he ended up shredding his knee in a pick up basketball game.

[Deputy Nutz]

With Rodgers and time running out there is urgency to get the real deal for receivers.

SERIOUS QUESTION

What type of value do you think we could get for Rashan Gary in a trade ? I know it would never happen because GM's dont want to eat crow this early, but could you package pick 30 and Gary to get up to 10 ?


Lay off the pain killers

[Deputy Nutz]

3 round mock draft. http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001101022/article/threeround-2020-nfl-mock-draft-10-dolphins-pass-on-tua

Packers picks:

#30 Kenneth Murray - LB - Oklahoma

#62 Jalen Reagor - WR - TCU

#94 - Ben Bartch - OT - Saint John's

I would be ecstatic with the 1st 2 picks. Would even be willing to trade up a bit for Murray. Don't know anything about Bartch at this point.

Bretsky - Lamb is the 4th pick. :)


Interesting draft, Bartch is a division 3 kid from St. John's in Minnesota. He did a nice job at the senior bowl and has went from feel good story about a small school kid maybe getting a chance at the NFL to jumping up draft boards. He is probably a top 10 tackle prospect going into the combine.

I have been hearing talks of Reagor being the 4th receiver taken in the 2020 draft. The top three are solidified but there is a bunch of discussion on who is the next best. Reagor, Shenault, Jefferson, Hamler, Higgins, and Aiyuk have all been mentioned as the next best.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

With Rodgers and time running out there is urgency to get the real deal for receivers.

SERIOUS QUESTION

What type of value do you think we could get for Rashan Gary in a trade ? I know it would never happen because GM's dont want to eat crow this early, but could you package pick 30 and Gary to get up to 10 ?

30 + Gary for OBJ would be awesome.

[run pMc]

30 + Gary for OBJ would be awesome.

I'd rather have Myles Garrett but if it had to be OBJ I'd ask CLE to throw in some extra kicking nets too.

[wist43]

30 + Gary for OBJ would be awesome.

No way in hell would I do that.

Cleveland would jump at that trade.

[pbmax]

I agree with you, and then I see poor Josh Rosen with his clipboard and baseball cap, who in two years is going to have a team give up on him and draft a QB within the top 5 picks of the draft.


The Packers with Wolf did draft Fred Vinson, and trade him the next season for Ahman Green, but I don't think that had anything to do with them giving up on the defensive back, they just really needed a running back. The Packers traded a second pick for a 3rd round pick. The Packers were also in reasonable shape at corner because Vinson was the 2nd out of three cornerbacks drafted by Wolf in the 1999 draft. Mike McKenzie who was drafted in the third round was already a starter and the first pick Antwan Edwards was bit of a disappointment but worked himself on to the field as a nickel and then a safety. Vinson after the trade submarined his career as he ended up shredding his knee in a pick up basketball game.

Holmgren was a noted fan of not fumbling and therefore, wasn't too fond of Ahman in his younger days.

[Bretsky]

No. Teams don't normally trade guys they just drafted. The moment you announce Gary is available for trade, you are basically admitting he is a disapppintment. That automatically reduces his trade value. Better to hang onto him and hope he develops.


I would play devil's advocate on your point (although you are probably right) and suggest throwing him in a deal does not automatically admit he's a disappointment. However, I think after a team thoroughly scouts how much he contributed, and was used, that is the conclusion they will come to. And you are right about reducing his trade value; nobody would retake him at pick 12 if we had a do over so I was just curious if he might have some value in moving up along with our 1st. Just my pondering thoughts

[Bretsky]

Lay off the pain killers


You don't get any trophies for not taking the Vike :)

[pbmax]

Oates says its all about speed. Except for Adams and Jones. :roll:

https://madison.com/wsj/sports/football/professional/tom-oates-fleet-feet-needed-for-packers-to-reach-next/article_9ee81b27-b96d-544c-b4f7-39339f5182f1.html

Speed is good. Production is better.

And Tom doesn't wrestle with the big receiver plan that Gutekunst had last year. Someone should ask him about it.

[mraynrand]

MVS has speed, but as Harvey indicated again and again, his hands (catch point) are awful. We saw that perfectly clearly on the bomb in the Bears game. And the Chiefs two longest pass completions were blown coverages.

Whether it is Encyclopedia St. Brown, Stromberg, Lazard, or another veteran FA WR, what the Packers need is another reliable target or two or three for Rodgers to connect with, in the Flower offense. Sure a guy with 4.2 speed would certainly be nice. And I'd like a new ferrari delivered to my driveway tomorrow also, as long as we're dreaming.

[Zool]

They would need to trade pretty much their whole draft to move up that high, unless the trade also involved a pretty good player. What's this fascination people have with trading up to get the top WR in the draft? How many Super Bowl rings does Randy Moss have? Or Larry Fitzgerald? Or A.J. Green? Or Julio Jones? This team already has Davante Adams. They don't need somebody better than Adams. They need someone to complement Adams. This draft is full of guys like that.

1, 0, 0 for the SBs.

Culpepper, Oakland, Brady for Moss
Fitzgerald had 2 years of a HOF QB and made a SB
Green had Dalton his whole career

If you can get a HOF WR, you go get him. Unless it's Ditka level dumb. If it's next year's 1st and this year's 1st, and you feel 100% confident he's a stud, you go get him IMO.

[mraynrand]

How many Super Bowl rings does Randy Moss have?


https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fassets.nydailynews.com%2Fpolopoly_ fs%2F1.2474887.1450887387!%2Fimg%2FhttpImage%2Fima ge.jpg_gen%2Fderivatives%2Farticle_750%2Fnfc-championship.jpg&f=1&nofb=1
had to do it

[Zool]

Now do the dirty bird dance.

[RashanGary]

I'd rather have a stud ILB than a WR. With more and more play pass, RPO and (zone/boot mixes) being run in the NFL, an ILB that can diagnose AND run is becoming a premium playmaker for defenses.

I don't know if one is there. I see kuekly do some savvy ass shit like hide behind the DL and bait a RB into a gap, just to blow it up. And I see guys play the ball really well. But I guess it's hard for me to watch enough tape to know if a college guy is consistent at it.

In gute we trust I guess

[RashanGary]

Smart, instinctive, tough, fast guys who love contacy and who have that consistency in their ambitions to continue to get better aren't born every day.

[mraynrand]

I'd rather have a stud ILB than a WR. With more and more play pass, RPO and (zone/boot mixes) being run in the NFL, an ILB that can diagnose AND run is becoming a premium playmaker for defenses.

I don't know if one is there. I see kuekly do some savvy ass shit like hide behind the DL and bait a RB into a gap, just to blow it up. And I see guys play the ball really well. But I guess it's hard for me to watch enough tape to know if a college guy is consistent at it.

In gute we trust I guess

I think for 2020, I'd rather have a great defensive athlete from the draft as the top pick and bring in the best competent WR/TE FA you can find. Someone who can mesh with Rodgers right away.

[RashanGary]

I think for 2020, I'd rather have a great defensive athlete from the draft as the top pick and bring in the best competent WR/TE FA you can find. Someone who can mesh with Rodgers right away.

Burafict is a really good player as an option to go the other way. But I think I'd rather draft a stud ILB or SS (move Amos to LB in that case)

[mraynrand]

Burafict is a really good player as an option to go the other way.

Probably too risky. One wrong tackle and you lose him for the season.

[run pMc]

Oates says its all about speed. Except for Adams and Jones. :roll:

https://madison.com/wsj/sports/football/professional/tom-oates-fleet-feet-needed-for-packers-to-reach-next/article_9ee81b27-b96d-544c-b4f7-39339f5182f1.html

Speed is good. Production is better.

And Tom doesn't wrestle with the big receiver plan that Gutekunst had last year. Someone should ask him about it.

Speed is nice. At WR, I'd prioritize route running/the abillity to separate and reliable hands over speed. If they can run a 4.5 40 they are fast enough. I wouldn't want a WR that runs a 4.6+ like Allison or Laquon Treadwell. I just don't think they are fast enough to separate reliably or make it to their route marks fast enough. Plus CB are more comfortable creeping up and sitting on their routes. (Yes I know 4.5 vs. 4.6 isn't much, over 40 yards it's about a yard difference. The throwing windows are often small/close fast so I think on a 12-15yd dig route the difference b/t ESB's 4.48 and G-Mo's 4.62 does matter.)

Even if MVS doesn't get thrown to they could have him run about 8-10 go routes a game and that should be enough to scare most teams and likely get Rodgers to try him at least once.

Speed in the defensive back 7 and RB, and not go back to having 4.62 guys like Allison at WR would be good.

I thought the big receiver thing would help Rodgers. My thinking was bigger receiver --> higher contested throw completion rate, bigger catch radius, harder to bring down, etc.
But now I think Rodgers is so risk-averse he doesn't do a lot of 50/50 contested throws or jump balls, which takes away many of the big WR advantages...plus some of these tall guys are lanky and easy to tackle.

They can do fine with a 6'1" guy who can get open and gain YAC (e.g., A.J. Brown, Deebo Samuel).

[run pMc]

Probably too risky. One wrong tackle and you lose him for the season.

Agree -- he was suspended for the season because of a late hit that was Trevathan/Adams bad. He's a mean SOB but I think he's a liability, he's getting old, and can't cover TE/RB anyway.
(And likely not "Packer people", whatever that is.)

If they're gonna sign someone to replace Blake, I'd prefer they kick the tires on Kwiatkoski.

[texaspackerbacker]

Speed is nice. At WR, I'd prioritize route running/the abillity to separate and reliable hands over speed. If they can run a 4.5 40 they are fast enough. I wouldn't want a WR that runs a 4.6+ like Allison or Laquon Treadwell. I just don't think they are fast enough to separate reliably or make it to their route marks fast enough. Plus CB are more comfortable creeping up and sitting on their routes. (Yes I know 4.5 vs. 4.6 isn't much, over 40 yards it's about a yard difference. The throwing windows are often small/close fast so I think on a 12-15yd dig route the difference b/t ESB's 4.48 and G-Mo's 4.62 does matter.)

Even if MVS doesn't get thrown to they could have him run about 8-10 go routes a game and that should be enough to scare most teams and likely get Rodgers to try him at least once.

Speed in the defensive back 7 and RB, and not go back to having 4.62 guys like Allison at WR would be good.

I thought the big receiver thing would help Rodgers. My thinking was bigger receiver --> higher contested throw completion rate, bigger catch radius, harder to bring down, etc.
But now I think Rodgers is so risk-averse he doesn't do a lot of 50/50 contested throws or jump balls, which takes away many of the big WR advantages...plus some of these tall guys are lanky and easy to tackle.

They can do fine with a 6'1" guy who can get open and gain YAC (e.g., A.J. Brown, Deebo Samuel).

Speed is more than nice, and more to the point, it's the thing we don't have. Route runners and/or big guys are what you need for the short and medium passing game, but we could certainly use that deep threat. Besides, coaches ought to be able to teach route running. Speed, on the other hand, is God-given. As for big receivers helping, we did go 14-4 after all.

I ABSOLUTELY want my QB to be risk averse ....... some people actually do not?

And regarding Martinez, I'd rather keep and augment him than replace him.

[mraynrand]

I ABSOLUTELY want my QB to be risk averse ....... some people actually do not?

It's a dial, not an on-off switch.

[texaspackerbacker]

Then the dial should be at zero ...... unless, of course, you are down about 3 TDs in the 4th quarter or maybe time is running out in the half and you throw a hail mary. The former has hardly ever happened to the Packers, and on the latter, our GOAT QB has exercised risk pretty successfully there.

[pbmax]

Speed is nice. At WR, I'd prioritize route running/the abillity to separate and reliable hands over speed. If they can run a 4.5 40 they are fast enough. I wouldn't want a WR that runs a 4.6+ like Allison or Laquon Treadwell. I just don't think they are fast enough to separate reliably or make it to their route marks fast enough. Plus CB are more comfortable creeping up and sitting on their routes. (Yes I know 4.5 vs. 4.6 isn't much, over 40 yards it's about a yard difference. The throwing windows are often small/close fast so I think on a 12-15yd dig route the difference b/t ESB's 4.48 and G-Mo's 4.62 does matter.)

Even if MVS doesn't get thrown to they could have him run about 8-10 go routes a game and that should be enough to scare most teams and likely get Rodgers to try him at least once.

Speed in the defensive back 7 and RB, and not go back to having 4.62 guys like Allison at WR would be good.

I thought the big receiver thing would help Rodgers. My thinking was bigger receiver --> higher contested throw completion rate, bigger catch radius, harder to bring down, etc.
But now I think Rodgers is so risk-averse he doesn't do a lot of 50/50 contested throws or jump balls, which takes away many of the big WR advantages...plus some of these tall guys are lanky and easy to tackle.

They can do fine with a 6'1" guy who can get open and gain YAC (e.g., A.J. Brown, Deebo Samuel).

He trusted Lazard, Adams, Graham a few times and Stonebringer.

[pbmax]

Speed is more than nice, and more to the point, it's the thing we don't have. Route runners and/or big guys are what you need for the short and medium passing game, but we could certainly use that deep threat. Besides, coaches ought to be able to teach route running. Speed, on the other hand, is God-given. As for big receivers helping, we did go 14-4 after all.

I ABSOLUTELY want my QB to be risk averse ....... some people actually do not?

And regarding Martinez, I'd rather keep and augment him than replace him.

You should have more INTs than fumbles.

[texaspackerbacker]

Seriously? hahahaha

Even if you aren't exhibiting Rand-level sarcasm and are serious, a fumble is about 50/50 to be recovered by our side, while a pick is a pick is a pick - straight to the other team.

[run pMc]

I want my QB to take calculated risks, but generally be risk averse. I like that Rodgers is generally careful with the ball, but it's almost to a fault. My comment was more to the issue of the big receiver corps -- Rodgers isn't going to throw to these guys even though they have 5" or 6" on a CB, so they would be just as well served by a 6'1" guy who can run routes. Compare to some other QBs (including Bert Farve) who would put the ball up for a big receiver to outjump the CB for. I'd bet on Lazard to win more jumpballs than footraces.

I agree they need more speed. I think MVS gives them a deep threat so they aren't devoid of it. Speaking of him, he's had 2 years and how's his route running? I think some things can't be coached and I'm not sure MVS has them. You can run a 4.3 but if you round off your routes or don't know where the soft spot in a zone is a CB running a 4.5 can stay close enough to make Rodgers move on to his next read in the progression. Most of their WRs are UDFAs; they need better talent.

Basically I'm saying that I hope they prioritize routerunning/separation and production over speed or size. If all you can run is a 9 route vs. college CBs you'll be easy for a pro CB to defend.

Rodgers trusts Adams, Lazard, sometimes G-Mo. Don't know that he trusts Sternberger yet (didn't see many targets), but the scramble drill TD vs. SF bodes well.
I thought he would feed Graham more -- even force feed him a la Adams sometimes -- but that never really happened and I think it's because he can't separate anymore. Dude is 6'7" so it's not like you can't see him on the field.

[run pMc]

And regarding Martinez, I'd rather keep and augment him than replace him.

If the price was right, I'd be ok with this. What Blake does isn't hard to replace, though, so I wouldn't pay him what some other team might when they look at his durability and tackle stats. He won't win many races to the sideline vs. a RB and his pass coverage is suspect, but he lines up the D and can tackle everything if the DL keeps him clean. He isn't worth $8M/year when you have Rodgers' cap hit going up and A.Jones and D.Bahk becoming FA's next offseason. Part of me wonders if Blake is worth more than $4M/yr honestly.

Run stuffing ILBs aren't hard to find (ex. BJ Goodson). ILBs who can cover are tougher to find.

Gute needs to continue to add fast cover guys in the back 7 - Tramon is getting old and another CB wouldn't hurt. He's done well with Alexander and Savage.

[Bretsky]

You should have more INTs than fumbles.


This statement can be highly debateable either way. It's not simple either way.

On surface level what a great stat when you mimimize your INT's this much. But it also implies Rodgers is not taking chances and giving receivers the opportunity for any jump balls. I'd argue with our offense Favre would have many more TD's as well as Intercepttions. Because he was willing to give WR's the chance for the jump ball and those balls he threw were often catchable, but both offense and defense. How many great catches did Javon Walker come down with. Rodgers throws those balls away.

So I assume PB is implying we could easily take more risks knowing some will turn into TD's as well as occasional INT's.

With that being said, maybe part of the reason Rodgers rarly takes those chances is our WR's suck and they don't come down with the throws that need certain skills to adjust to. I don't know if that is the case or not, but just a thought

[Bretsky]

If the price was right, I'd be ok with this. What Blake does isn't hard to replace, though, so I wouldn't pay him what some other team might when they look at his durability and tackle stats. He won't win many races to the sideline vs. a RB and his pass coverage is suspect, but he lines up the D and can tackle everything if the DL keeps him clean. He isn't worth $8M/year when you have Rodgers' cap hit going up and A.Jones and D.Bahk becoming FA's next offseason. Part of me wonders if Blake is worth more than $4M/yr honestly.

Run stuffing ILBs aren't hard to find (ex. BJ Goodson). ILBs who can cover are tougher to find.

Gute needs to continue to add fast cover guys in the back 7 - Tramon is getting old and another CB wouldn't hurt. He's done well with Alexander and Savage.



I think a fair value is 7MIL/Year but I think he's going to get 9-12 from another team.

[ThunderDan]

Latest draft on Fanspeak:
OT AUSTIN JACKSON USC
TE COLE KMET NOTRE DAME
LB AKEEM DAVIS-GAITHER APPALACHIAN STATE
WR COLLIN JOHNSON TEXAS

Davis-Gaither would be a steal in the 3rd round. Looks like his Senior Bowl performance will get him to climb the draft boards. Small school player, big time player.

[mraynrand]

Seriously? hahahaha

Even if you aren't exhibiting Rand-level sarcasm and are serious, a fumble is about 50/50 to be recovered by our side, while a pick is a pick is a pick - straight to the other team.

The point pbmax was making wasn't about the relative damage of the two types of turnovers, but what their relative numbers indicate about the risk adverse nature of Rodgers. If over the course of the season he had 8 fumbles and 4 INTs, the argument is that it indicates he's taking far too few chances throwing downfield. The argument would be that if say the numbers were 8-10, the increase of 6 INTs might also mean a dramatic increase in big plays/TDs. I don't know if that's true or not, but at least I think this is the argument.


Edit: I see Bretsky also pretty much made this argument

[gbgary]

with rodgers' accuracy issues, at every distance, i'd rather have a wr with great hands and decent speed than great speed and decent hands. he might be more inclined to force a ball and make a play in that case. simply taking a sack (and risking a fumble or injury) or throwing it away (which he's setting records at) isn't getting them anything.

[mraynrand]

Just as important (maybe more) as hands is being on the same page. That amazing adjustment Adams made against Seattle has to be available with most (all?) of the other receivers too. If Rodgers remains distrustful of a receiver he simply won’t throw them the ball. May as well just put in another blocker or pass protector.

[Joemailman]

Just as important (maybe more) as hands is being on the same page. That amazing adjustment Adams made against Seattle has to be available with most (all?) of the other receivers too. If Rodgers remains distrustful of a receiver he simply won’t throw them the ball. May as well just put in another blocker or pass protector.

This is why I've kind of been on the Jalen Reagor bandwagon. I see him as kind of a fast version of Randall Cobb.

https://thedraftnetwork.com/player/jalen-reagor/BdQaY3TtVR


Route Tree - Appreciate the nuance he brings to route releases to force false steps or create space before accelerating. He's shifty both at the LOS and when closing down on the toes of off defenders, showing great snap, footwork and pace. Movement skills to run any route in the tree.


Football IQ - Natural instinct here to win on different levels, shows good understanding of when he's got leverage and how to sell defenders on something other than his true intent. Much more polished and pro-ready than offense gave him the chance to showcase.

[smuggler]

And Raegor is bigger than Cobb, as well.

[Bretsky]

This is why I've kind of been on the Jalen Reagor bandwagon. I see him as kind of a fast version of Randall Cobb.

https://thedraftnetwork.com/player/jalen-reagor/BdQaY3TtVR


Is this guy a burner in term of speed ? The two most popular WR picks on mock's is Reagor and Jefferson from LSU. Right now my bias would be with Jefferson. He seems like a combo of Greg Jennings and D Adams

[Joemailman]

Is this guy a burner in term of speed ? The two most popular WR picks on mock's is Reagor and Jefferson from LSU. Right now my bias would be with Jefferson. He seems like a combo of Greg Jennings and D Adams


Speed - Blazing fast runner who has track speed. One of the fasts game speed players in the class, regardless of position. Playing him off will create a lot of easy separation and catches underneath unless you bracket him. Minimal lag from snap to top speed, quick accelerator, too. .

http://www.nfl.com/photoessays/0ap3000000936388/18-for-'18:-college-football's-fastest-players

Timed at 4.32 back in 2018. He'll be one to watch at the combine. That kind of speed is why I like him so much though. But it doesn't hurt.


9. Jalen Reagor, WR, TCU
Gary Patterson has brought his share of burners to TCU, and Reagor can compete with any of them. His 4.32-second 40-yard dash is the best current time in the program. Last year, he passed on the chance for January enrollment at TCU in order to compete in track as a high school senior. But he didn't need the advantage of spring practice to make an impact as a freshman. Reagor was selected the Big 12's co-Offensive Freshman of the Year after leading the team in receiving yards (576) and touchdowns (8, which was the most by any true freshman in the nation).

[texaspackerbacker]

We've already got our Davante Adams. What we need is not another similar guy; What we need is a burner - like Will Fuller to Deandre Hopkins, or like Tyreek Hill. reagor would be that. I'm not so sure we couldn't get somebody just about as good in the second round, though - Duvernay for example.

[GB-Brandon]

I’m seeing a lot of posters going after Reagor with our second pick(while I love it) I just don’t believe it will be realistic after the combine. There is strong possibility he will run sub 4.3 and jump over 40 inches. His numbers we’re down a little this season but that was due to horrible QB play. He is a first round talent that might make it to the middle to top of second round due to excess WR talent. IMO the Packers would have to trade up in second to get him. Someone will fall in love with his speed and ability to play bigger then his 5’11 frame way way before pick 62. Heck, there is a good chance Reagor doesn’t even make it to pick 30

If the Packers stick to there draft position in second round and address the WR position there I think Brandon Aiyuk will be the best available option for what is needed.

https://youtu.be/42o5FbxDW8k

Also, I don’t think Murray will be there at 30 but way better chance then Reagor at 62.

[Joemailman]

I’m seeing a lot of posters going after Reagor with our second pick(while I love it) I just don’t believe it will be realistic after the combine. There is strong possibility he will run sub 4.3 and jump over 40 inches. His numbers we’re down a little this season but that was due to horrible QB play. He is a first round talent that might make it to the middle to top of second round due to excess WR talent. IMO the Packers would have to trade up in second to get him. Someone will fall in love with his speed and ability to play bigger then his 5’11 frame way way before pick 62. Heck, there is a good chance Reagor doesn’t even make it to pick 30

If the Packers stick to there draft position in second round and address the WR position there I think Brandon Aiyuk will be the best available option for what is needed.

https://youtu.be/42o5FbxDW8k

Also, I don’t think Murray will be there at 30 but way better chance then Reagor at 62.

I posted the results of the mock that had Reagor taken at 62, but I agree that won't happen. I think the most likely scenario is that they either take Murray or Queen at 30 (If available). If not they trade down into the early 2nd round and take Reagor or some other WR.

[RashanGary]

Laviska shanault would be interesting. Kind of a young Josh Gordon but more stable and accountable

[pbmax]

Seriously? hahahaha

Even if you aren't exhibiting Rand-level sarcasm and are serious, a fumble is about 50/50 to be recovered by our side, while a pick is a pick is a pick - straight to the other team.

My error. Should have said fumbles lost.

[pbmax]

I want my QB to take calculated risks, but generally be risk averse. I like that Rodgers is generally careful with the ball, but it's almost to a fault. My comment was more to the issue of the big receiver corps -- Rodgers isn't going to throw to these guys even though they have 5" or 6" on a CB, so they would be just as well served by a 6'1" guy who can run routes. Compare to some other QBs (including Bert Farve) who would put the ball up for a big receiver to outjump the CB for. I'd bet on Lazard to win more jumpballs than footraces.

.

Lazard is an example of a big WR he trusts. But he doesn’t continue to trust them if like MVS he can’t compete for the ball successfully. Taken to an extreme that will hurt you. But it’s also not incumbent on Rodgers to say “your tall, here’s a jump ball” more than a couple times before going somewhere else.

I think Rand is on right track. You need a professional WR who will adapt to the QB, have good hands, fight for the ball and run predictable routes.

You know what you do? If ILB is not there (or as Huber thinks they might do, your OT is not there either) you trade down and get Jennings or Nelson plus an extra pick.

[wthigoot]

I’m seeing a lot of posters going after Reagor with our second pick(while I love it) I just don’t believe it will be realistic after the combine. There is strong possibility he will run sub 4.3 and jump over 40 inches. His numbers we’re down a little this season but that was due to horrible QB play. He is a first round talent that might make it to the middle to top of second round due to excess WR talent. IMO the Packers would have to trade up in second to get him. Someone will fall in love with his speed and ability to play bigger then his 5’11 frame way way before pick 62. Heck, there is a good chance Reagor doesn’t even make it to pick 30

If the Packers stick to there draft position in second round and address the WR position there I think Brandon Aiyuk will be the best available option for what is needed.

https://youtu.be/42o5FbxDW8k

Also, I don’t think Murray will be there at 30 but way better chance then Reagor at 62.

What would you think of doing the typical Ted Thompson thing and trading down into the top of round 2 for an extra 4th, then taking Reagor?

Wonder what would be the other options if someone takes Reagor right before the pick comes up.

Still an extra 4th could amount to something. Every time Ted did that it seems like the guy got hurt and then washed out.

[GB-Brandon]

Laviska shanault would be interesting. Kind of a young Josh Gordon but more stable and accountable

Another guy(Shanault) I would love to see in Green and Gold but just don’t see him making it to pick 30 post combine.

I just hope the Packers don’t “reach” for Jefferson(LSU). Got done watching quite a bit of film on him and he isn’t “separating” enough for me along with working mostly against other teams no.2’s. Throw in Burrow as his QB and not being that big(192lbs) or explosive makes him a “stay away” for me real early in draft.

[GB-Brandon]

What would you think of doing the typical Ted Thompson thing and trading down into the top of round 2 for an extra 4th, then taking Reagor?

Wonder what would be the other options if someone takes Reagor right before the pick comes up.

Still an extra 4th could amount to something. Every time Ted did that it seems like the guy got hurt and then washed out.

My belief is you attack the board and get the guys you want and LOVE. Playing “cutsie” potentially leaves you telling the media “We picked the best player available” while the fans are scratching there heads over the pick-etc. etc.

With the lack of investing any real premium capital(both draft and free agency) at the position for quite some time and Aaron Rodgers showing some signs of age the Packers can’t afford to screw this up. Urgency is of the essence. It doesn’t mean we need to panic but if nothing is done to bolster this WR position in free agency/trade they better run to the podium and get Reagor IMO if he is there at 30.

[Joemailman]

Another guy(Shanault) I would love to see in Green and Gold but just don’t see him making it to pick 30 post combine.

I just hope the Packers don’t “reach” for Jefferson(LSU). Got done watching quite a bit of film on him and he isn’t “separating” enough for me along with working mostly against other teams no.2’s. Throw in Burrow as his QB and not being that big(192lbs) or explosive makes him a “stay away” for me real early in draft.

What you saw seems to agree with what I read about him:

https://thedraftnetwork.com/player/justin-jefferson/esI1JY8rYR


Cons: Although he will likely test with sufficient deep speed overall, his play speed often appears slower than that. He’s not a dynamic athlete with regards to change of direction, movement skills and short area agility. Needs to be more consistent coming off the ball hard to threaten the defender in off coverage as the game progresses. Has some instances of allowing the ball to get into his frame in the short to intermediate area. Due to his lack of elite dynamic ability in a short area, he needs to become more consistent at extending on his catches. He may very well be in a lot of contested catch situations against man coverage. For as athletic as he is, he doesn't always create separation at the top of the route against man. He also needs to use his hands better to defeat press. He could afford to be more consistent with attention to detail in regards to route depth at critical points in the game.

[GB-Brandon]

I posted the results of the mock that had Reagor taken at 62, but I agree that won't happen. I think the most likely scenario is that they either take Murray or Queen at 30 (If available). If not they trade down into the early 2nd round and take Reagor or some other WR.

What happens in free agency will probably give us a clearer vision of what and who they are targeting.

I’m a huge Jordyn Brooks fan in round 2 along with signing Littleton.

[GB-Brandon]

What you saw seems to agree with what I read about him:

https://thedraftnetwork.com/player/justin-jefferson/esI1JY8rYR

I completely agree with all that. I’m pretty sure he isn’t what we’re looking for.

[texaspackerbacker]

Shenault had a reported 4.35 40 time, but the consensus for him was about 4.59. Aiyuk is supposedly about 4.48. Jefferson also is in that non-burner range. I'd be ok with Reagor with our #1 pick, but I'd prefer D Line or Corner in the first round and Duvernay in the second round. His 40 time was 4.38; He was also Texas high school 100 meter champion at 10.77; And he played for a major college - against major college competition including L.S.U. and Oklahoma.

Some might say 40 time doesn't mean much, but if a guy can run 40 yards in a little over 4 seconds, then 1 second is about 10 yards, and .1 second is about a yard of separation down field - which I'd say is significant.

[GB-Brandon]

Shenault had a reported 4.35 40 time, but the consensus for him was about 4.59. Aiyuk is supposedly about 4.48. Jefferson also is in that non-burner range. I'd be ok with Reagor with our #1 pick, but I'd prefer D Line or Corner in the first round and Duvernay in the second round. His 40 time was 4.38; He was also Texas high school 100 meter champion at 10.77; And he played for a major college - against major college competition including L.S.U. and Oklahoma.

Some might say 40 time doesn't mean much, but if a guy can run 40 yards in a little over 4 seconds, then 1 second is about 10 yards, and .1 second is about a yard of separation down field - which I'd say is significant.

As posted I would not be angry if they drafted Raekwon Davis at 30 as the “Northwestern Twins” kinda made me sick too my stomach via the Niners game. However, the Packers need to have a plan to revamp that receiving corp that includes more then just continuing to develop Lazzard, G-Mo, MVS, Kummerow, Sheppard and taking some flier on day 3.

I don’t see how they could possibly draft yet another corner with a 1st round pick. I wouldn’t mind a pick later in the draft to bring someone In to compete but we’re pretty set with King, Savage(year 2), Amos and Alexander. I don’t think the problem with this defense is on the back end. I believe it’s not having anyone after Kenny Clark on the D-Line and asking too much of a player such as Blake Martinez.

[wthigoot]

My belief is you attack the board and get the guys you want and LOVE. Playing “cutsie” potentially leaves you telling the media “We picked the best player available” while the fans are scratching there heads over the pick-etc. etc.

With the lack of investing any real premium capital(both draft and free agency) at the position for quite some time and Aaron Rodgers showing some signs of age the Packers can’t afford to screw this up. Urgency is of the essence. It doesn’t mean we need to panic but if nothing is done to bolster this WR position in free agency/trade they better run to the podium and get Reagor IMO if he is there at 30.

Great answer if speedy WR is very much the #1 priority and/or if Reagor is THE guy. Then that's the pick at 30.

If otherwise, consider this board: https://gbnreport.com/2020-top-100/

Trade from 30 to 37 and add a 4th, will get one of:

30 C.J. Henderson CB 6-1, 191 Florida
31 Brandon Aiyuk WR 6-1, 195 Arizona State
32 D'Andre Swift RB 5-9, 215 Georgia
33 Mekhi Becton OT 6-7, 369 Louisville
34 Cole Kmet TE 6-6, 250 Notre Dame
35 Netani Muti OG 6-3, 307 Fresno State
36 Jalen Reagor WR 5-11, 195 Texas Christian
37 Raekwon Davis DT 6-7, 312 Alabama

Might get Reagor or Aiyuk, but any one of the others could certainly help.

What could the extra 4th (around pick 105 or so) go for?

Quartney Davis WR 6-2 200 4.41e Texas A&M
Lynn Bowden WR 6-1 199 4.50e Kentucky
Quez Watkins WR 6-2 190 4.31e Southern Mississippi

Speed there, but if they are that low there are probably some drawbacks too. Hope it's not hands of stone. Very interesting to think about; looking forward to see how things change on approach to the draft.

[GB-Brandon]

Great answer if speedy WR is very much the #1 priority and/or if Reagor is THE guy. Then that's the pick at 30.

If otherwise, consider this board: https://gbnreport.com/2020-top-100/

Trade from 30 to 37 and add a 4th, will get one of:

30 C.J. Henderson CB 6-1, 191 Florida
31 Brandon Aiyuk WR 6-1, 195 Arizona State
32 D'Andre Swift RB 5-9, 215 Georgia
33 Mekhi Becton OT 6-7, 369 Louisville
34 Cole Kmet TE 6-6, 250 Notre Dame
35 Netani Muti OG 6-3, 307 Fresno State
36 Jalen Reagor WR 5-11, 195 Texas Christian
37 Raekwon Davis DT 6-7, 312 Alabama

Might get Reagor or Aiyuk, but any one of the others could certainly help.

What could the extra 4th (around pick 105 or so) go for?

Quartney Davis WR 6-2 200 4.41e Texas A&M
Lynn Bowden WR 6-1 199 4.50e Kentucky
Quez Watkins WR 6-2 190 4.31e Southern Mississippi

Speed there, but if they are that low there are probably some drawbacks too. Hope it's not hands of stone. Very interesting to think about; looking forward to see how things change on approach to the draft.

I like a scenario where we get a combination of R Davis and either Reagor or Aiyuk. Whether Gute has to trade back and then trade back up to make that happen remains to be seen. For this to happen Gute will certainly need to upgrade the ILB position via free agency.

Edit: I’m familiar with your 4th round targets but need to dig deeper.

[wthigoot]

I like a scenario where we get a combination of R Davis and either Reagor or Aiyuk. Whether Gute has to trade back and then trade back up to make that happen remains to be seen. For this to happen Gute will certainly need to upgrade the ILB position via free agency.

Edit: I’m familiar with your 4th round targets but need to dig deeper.

I like a scenario where we get a combination of R Davis and either Reagor or Aiyuk.

I would like that a lot also as of now. I think it would require the Packers 2021 2nd at least to get it done. Might be worth it if the guys pan out, as window with Rodgers is narrowing.

[wthigoot]

Lazard is an example of a big WR he trusts. But he doesn’t continue to trust them if like MVS he can’t compete for the ball successfully. Taken to an extreme that will hurt you. But it’s also not incumbent on Rodgers to say “your tall, here’s a jump ball” more than a couple times before going somewhere else.

I think Rand is on right track. You need a professional WR who will adapt to the QB, have good hands, fight for the ball and run predictable routes.

You know what you do? If ILB is not there (or as Huber thinks they might do, your OT is not there either) you trade down and get Jennings or Nelson plus an extra pick.

As usual pbmax is one step ahead. Honestly my very next post was not a direct ripoff. Reduced to claiming (not so believeably) GMTA here. :-)

[pbmax]

As usual pbmax is one step ahead. Honestly my very next post was not a direct ripoff. Reduced to claiming (not so believeably) GMTA here. :-)

Its possible I have advocated for trading down in half of the Packers draft, so my mileage varies.

However, as someone else stated, that first round looks a lot different depending on how FA goes. If you get an ILB (or a good one is not there) there is a lot more freedom to move around and get a WR that fits and maybe pick up an extra pick.

If you need a ILB or DL (and signed Emmanuel Sanders or the like), you might need to stay or move up.

[ThunderDan]

The reality is the positions that the Packers really need help at are likely gone when they are picking.

ILB, Top bunch of WRs, Top bunch of OTs and DTs are going to be gone at the bottom of the 1st. I see a lot of trading back this draft and getting additional picks so we aren't reaching to fill holes. I would hate seeing us take a reach for a WR in round 1 when we could trade back get an extra 4th and draft two WR with a bunch of potential rounds 3 or 4 with the extra pick and maybe picking up a DT or OT at top of 2nd.

[ThunderDan]

Extra picks if only 6th and 7th rounders could be used to improve bottom of the roster and special teams.

[GB-Brandon]

The thing is rookie receivers drafted early have a pretty good percentage of contributing early and often lately.

2018- Courtland Sutton & Calvin Ridley, I wanted Sutton really bad and had him mocked pretty much the entire pre-draft process but would gladly take Ridley as well at this stage of the game.

2019- Aj Brown, DK Metcalf, Deebo Samuel, Mecole Hardman, Marquise Brown. Metcalf, Brown and Samuel balled out while Brown(played in a run heavy offense) and Hardman(so many other team weapons) had healthy Contributions as well. I was advocating for either Parris Campbell(who I would still love to have) and Deebo Samuel but once again would obviously take any of these guys.

Trading back and betting on long shot ponies is great but unfortunately we are down to probably a 2-3 year window with Rodgers with a team set up to “Win Now”. If there ever was a year to draft need over value this might be it.

Last year we drafted a project with the 12th pick of the draft(absolutely should off taken Simmons or traded back). Then we traded draft capital to jump off the reservation to get Savage when we could of just sat tight at our pick and got Juan Thornhill(who many wanted and rated out higher last season) using that capital we blew to get back in the game and get one of those top receivers mentioned.

We’re actually 3 years late now on improving this receiver position so the Packers might have to reach a little too try and address the glaring issue.

[GB-Brandon]

Before people start to write Rodgers off lets give him some weapons that can actually “separate” and “stress the defense”. Last year I heard all this “big slot talk” and it turned out to not be all that effective. Big guys with big catch radius’s are great but at some point having some guys with short areas quickness and speed are necessary to “stir the drink”. Having a slow TE like Jimmie Graham didn’t help the situation at all either. We are currently an offense that is desperate for more “chunk plays”. Our offense at times has becomes a desperate situation where Rodgers is just locking in on Adams to make a play without any other big play options. Continuing to add more big bodied project receivers on the outside will do us no good until we have someone that can stress the middle of the defense both vertically and in the short passing game over the middle. Having that will open things up more for guys on the outside to make plays. (See Tyreek Hill and the KC Chiefs)

I believe some people have forgotten that when Rodgers was most effective in his career he had the “Fantastic Five” and that receiving Corp was not built primarily on day 3 picks. I’m personally tired of trying to fix this thing with K-Mart imitation knock offs. Time to go out and get the REAL THING!!! No more “Fake Nike’s”

[mraynrand]

Preach it Brandon.

It’s time to “surround Rodgers with the talent he needs to win.”

I swear it’s not a lie, Tomorrow may be to late.

[ThunderDan]

Before people start to write Rodgers off lets give him some weapons that can actually “separate” and “stress the defense”. Last year I heard all this “big slot talk” and it turned out to not be all that effective. Big guys with big catch radius’s are great but at some point having some guys with short areas quickness and speed are necessary to “stir the drink”. Having a slow TE like Jimmie Graham didn’t help the situation at all either. We are currently an offense that is desperate for more “chunk plays”. Our offense at times has becomes a desperate situation where Rodgers is just locking in on Adams to make a play without any other big play options. Continuing to add more big bodied project receivers on the outside will do us no good until we have someone that can stress the middle of the defense both vertically and in the short passing game over the middle. Having that will open things up more for guys on the outside to make plays. (See Tyreek Hill and the KC Chiefs)

I believe some people have forgotten that when Rodgers was most effective in his career he had the “Fantastic Five” and that receiving Corp was not built primarily on day 3 picks. I’m personally tired of trying to fix this thing with K-Mart imitation knock offs. Time to go out and get the REAL THING!!! No more “Fake Nike’s”

Remember when we said that with Favre back in 2007 and everyone was saying we should sign Randy Moss. And then somehow the Old Gunslinger throws for 4,155 yards and 28 TDs.

I honestly believe you take BPA for the long-term benefit of the franchise.

[run pMc]

You know what you do? If ILB is not there (or as Huber thinks they might do, your OT is not there either) you trade down and get Jennings or Nelson plus an extra pick.

Been on board with this for a while, still am. I do think they need to take a WR in somewhere in R1-3. It's a deep WR class but waiting too long will mean they probably have a developmental project more than an able-to-contribute player.
I've mentioned before the bottom of the R1 is where some teams will try to trade back up to get a 2nd R1 pick...that's an opportunity to trade down 6-8 spots and gain an extra R4 to use on a depth player (3rd TE or RB) who might turn into something. Lot of variables need to fall into place for that to happen, and I think it's more likely they stand pat and grab someone they like at 30. (My gut tells me it's an OT or a DL for some reason.)

[GB-Brandon]

Preach it Brandon.

It’s time to “surround Rodgers with the talent he needs to win.”

I swear it’s not a lie, Tomorrow may be to late.

Yep. Here are the FACTS!!

Since drafting Adams in the 2nd round(Pick 53) in 2014

2014- Jared Abbrederis 5th Round(Pick 176)

2014- Jeff Janis 7th Round 7th Round(Pick 236)

2015- Ty Montgomery 3rd Round(Pick 94)

2016- Trevor Davis 5th round(Pick 163)

2017- Deangelo Yancy 5th round(Pick 175)

2017- Malachi Dupre 7th round(Pick 247)

2018- J’mon Moore 4th Round(Pick 133)

2018- Marquez Valdez-Scantling 5th Round(Pick 174)

2018-E-St. Brown 6th Round(Pick 207)

2019- “NOTHING”

UDFA- Geronimo Allison

UDFA- Jake Kummerow

UDFA- Darius Shepard

= More or less a big pile of “mediocrity”. Obviously trying to find the next Donald Driver in late rounds isn’t that easy. The definition of INSANITY is to the SAME THING OVER and OVER and EXPECT A DiFFERENT RESULT which the Packers have clearly proven in adding receiving talent too support Rodgers.

Now we are just about out of time.

[RashanGary]

I'm with you on Simmons, Brandon.

Never know if less depth at OLB would have caused injury to one of our top guys. And Gary still has some time to show out. Not like he's maxed. And he gets to learn from a couple crafty guys in front of him. We'll see.

Simmons is a top 3 talent though. Wish we had him.

We desperately need a star ILB. More than any other position, we need that. Lazard and Sternberger have a real shot at being viable 2nd and 3rd options for AR. There is no viable ILB on the team even with Martinez. Martinez is a #2. That's it

[RashanGary]

I'm very curious to see Sternberger in his second year with Lafleur and AR. TE technique and playbook is deeper than other positions cuz the blocking and receiving. Sternberger is highly likely to be much better in year 2.

I'd cut Graham, move Sternberger into that TE1 role and keep Lewis around to spell him show him the ropes for another year .

[GB-Brandon]

I'm with you on Simmons, Brandon.

Never know if less depth at OLB would have caused injury to one of our top guys. And Gary still has some time to show out. Not like he's maxed. And he gets to learn from a couple crafty guys in front of him. We'll see.

Simmons is a top 3 talent though. Wish we had him.

We desperately need a star ILB. More than any other position, we need that. Lazard and Sternberger have a real shot at being viable 2nd and 3rd options for AR. There is no viable ILB on the team even with Martinez. Martinez is a #2. That's it


I'm very curious to see Sternberger in his second year with Lafleur and AR. TE technique and playbook is deeper than other positions cuz the blocking and receiving. Sternberger is highly likely to be much better in year 2.

I'd cut Graham, move Sternberger into that TE1 role and keep Lewis around to spell him show him the ropes for another year .


We have zero chance of getting Simmons.

I like Sternberger and had him as a 3rd round target for the Packers last draft.

I am fine with grooming him as TE 1 heading into year 2 of his development.

[GB-Brandon]

I find it rather maddening that we have been on a “10 Year Plan” now to rebuild this defense and after “all the $” and “all the picks” invested we still don’t even have an above average ILB.

3 years ago I wanted them to change the direction on trying to build this “Championship Level Defense” and make a run at it with surrounding their “strength” which was obviously AR12. Yet here we are grasping at straws again and going back to the drawing board after our big Championship Level Defense got boat raced for record numbers in another playoff game.

The Chiefs defense wasn’t all that yet they won a Championship with an Elite QB and massive weapons along with a opportune defense. This has been the formula for us for years yet we fell short in the vision.

[mraynrand]

Yep. Here are the FACTS!!

Since drafting Adams in the 2nd round(Pick 53) in 2014

2014- Jared Abbrederis 5th Round(Pick 176)

2014- Jeff Janis 7th Round 7th Round(Pick 236)

2015- Ty Montgomery 3rd Round(Pick 94)

2016- Trevor Davis 5th round(Pick 163)

2017- Deangelo Yancy 5th round(Pick 175)

2017- Malachi Dupre 7th round(Pick 247)

2018- J’mon Moore 4th Round(Pick 133)

2018- Marquez Valdez-Scantling 5th Round(Pick 174)

2018-E-St. Brown 6th Round(Pick 207)

2019- “NOTHING”

UDFA- Geronimo Allison

UDFA- Jake Kummerow

UDFA- Darius Shepard

= More or less a big pile of “mediocrity”. Obviously trying to find the next Donald Driver in late rounds isn’t that easy. The definition of INSANITY is to the SAME THING OVER and OVER and EXPECT A DiFFERENT RESULT which the Packers have clearly proven in adding receiving talent too support Rodgers.

Now we are just about out of time.

That’s just flat out painful to look at.

[RashanGary]

We have zero chance of getting Simmons.

I like Sternberger and had him as a 3rd round target for the Packers last draft.

I am fine with grooming him as TE 1 heading into year 2 of his development.

I was talking bout Jeffrey Simmons last year. Beast

[RashanGary]

I find it rather maddening that we have been on a “10 Year Plan” now to rebuild this defense and after “all the $” and “all the picks” invested we still don’t even have an above average ILB.

3 years ago I wanted them to change the direction on trying to build this “Championship Level Defense” and make a run at it with surrounding their “strength” which was obviously AR12. Yet here we are grasping at straws again and going back to the drawing board after our big Championship Level Defense got boat raced for record numbers in another playoff game.

The Chiefs defense wasn’t all that yet they won a Championship with an Elite QB and massive weapons along with a opportune defense. This has been the formula for us for years yet we fell short in the vision.

Hof QB who got it quick and is on rookie deal. 25 extra mil and we're looking at two more zadarius quality players

[GB-Brandon]

Hof QB who got it quick and is on rookie deal. 25 extra mil and we're looking at two more zadarius quality players

Agree. That’s a big part of it too which is I why I never bought into it. Just too many “moving parts” to put a championship defense together with the addition of “franchise QB contract.’ There is little margin for error with things such as the Gary pick or Josh Jones pick or the Josh Jackson pick or the Oren Burks pick etc etc.

[GB-Brandon]

I was talking bout Jeffrey Simmons last year. Beast

Oops. Sorry. Agreed!

[GB-Brandon]

That’s just flat out painful to look at.

Exactly!! So it’s my opinion you go get the guy or guys you need to make Lafluer’s scheme work efficiently NOW. I don’t care what round it is or if they have to trade up to get him and consolidate resources. If it takes using your top pick plus something then go for it. There is nothing to save up for anymore as those years have been wasted. 2020 is Super Bowl or Bust whether people like it or not. Counting on late round fliers to surprise us and potentially hit gold should not be the only tactical resource used to get this offense humming.

Maybe they make a big free agent move/trade which could change things or shake it up so we’ll see.

[pbmax]

Remember when we said that with Favre back in 2007 and everyone was saying we should sign Randy Moss. And then somehow the Old Gunslinger throws for 4,155 yards and 28 TDs.

I honestly believe you take BPA for the long-term benefit of the franchise.

I am forever on team BPA. Always helps when you hit on the picks (Jennings, Nelson). I am torn about this and will be until FA, but I don't think they can afford a vet to improve on Martinez and will get a vet WR to help (Sanders or similar). Other option might be a reclamation project DL like Wilkerson.

However, I would consider a move up if they somehow fill two of the holes in FA (WR, ILB, OL, DB).

Brandon, are all the WRs you mentioned available at pick 30?

[GB-Brandon]

We still have the combine but at this time Reagor or Aiyuk should be there. Possibly Shenault as he is all over the place and probably because of reports and discrepancies that he runs 4.5 or 4.3 which will be revealed at combine. I would be shocked if any of them made it to pick 62. There might be the opportunity to trade back a few spots as others have posted and still get one. It’s really gonna come down to when “the run” on receivers starts after the top few guys(Juedy ,Ruggs, Lamb) get taken cause everyone is gonna hop on the bus that needs a receiver if you know what I mean.

The Combine will be critical but then you have to go back and watch the tape to make sure the speed matches up there(among other things) so there will be a bit of a shake up I imagine on some the prospects and where they rank.

That’s about the best answer i can give at this time.

[red]

I am forever on team BPA. Always helps when you hit on the picks (Jennings, Nelson). I am torn about this and will be until FA, but I don't think they can afford a vet to improve on Martinez and will get a vet WR to help (Sanders or similar). Other option might be a reclamation project DL like Wilkerson.

However, I would consider a move up if they somehow fill two of the holes in FA (WR, ILB, OL, DB).

Brandon, are all the WRs you mentioned available at pick 30?

does BPA offer any better chance at a player not being a bust? or are you still taking a 50/50 chance, but just on a player you don't need?

anyone done any number crunching?

drafting the BPA is still just as much of a crap shoot as taking anyone else

plus it all depends on what the GM thinks of a guy. gute thought gary was BPA last year, most people disagreed with him, but it didn't matter cause it was gutes pick

and as for WR, we need to sign a decent free agent. wrs take 2 or 3 years to develop. we don't have 2 or 3 years to wait for a guy to develop

[GB-Brandon]

does BPA offer any better chance at a player not being a bust? or are you still taking a 50/50 chance, but just on a player you don't need?

anyone done any number crunching?

drafting the BPA is still just as much of a crap shoot as taking anyone else

plus it all depends on what the GM thinks of a guy. gute thought gary was BPA last year, most people disagreed with him, but it didn't matter cause it was gutes pick

and as for WR, we need to sign a decent free agent. wrs take 2 or 3 years to develop. we don't have 2 or 3 years to wait for a guy to develop

I completely agree with you on your BPA theory. For example; If we would of drafted DK Metcalf with pick 12 some people would of called it a reach but at this stage of the game people would be giving Gute all the credit in the world for drafting him and some even would call him a genius. Considering the Packers weakness for playmakers on offense Metcalf would of been the BPA available in theory. I’m convinced “BPA” is a fancy thing GM’s say at the press conference after they draft players and not much more. In the end I believe you gotta go with guys you love that fit your scheme and can help you win.

As far as receivers taking 2-3 years to develop I disagree. DK Metcalf, AJ Brown and Deebo Samuel all carried there offenses to a degree this season as rookies. Yes, there still developing(which is great for there respective teams) but there rookie production was notable and helped their teams win games.

Now as far as the “Aaron Rodgers Needs time to Connect to Receivers” needs to go out to the trash can. We run a completely different scheme then back in the MM era that is designed to scheme guys open and the ball to come out and be delivered to the open guy on time. A almost 40 million a year franchise QB needs to make that throw to the open guy in the scheme and quit worrying about some Vulcan Mind Meld Connection. Period!

[Joemailman]

BPA is a real thing, although there may be times when there are 2 or more players at the top of a team's board with basically the same grade. This happened in 2009 when the Packers took Raji even though they had Michael Crabtree rated as high. Gary would seem to be an obvious BPA pick since Edge was obviously not an area of need after signing the Smiths. Drafting Metcalf in the 1st round would have been a real reach based on the scouting reports about him. In fact, drafting any WR at #12 likely would have been a reach, based on how the draft went. It's not like teams weren't interested in great WR's. The value just wasn't there.

[Bretsky]

I completely agree with you on your BPA theory. For example; If we would of drafted DK Metcalf with pick 12 some people would of called it a reach but at this stage of the game people would be giving Gute all the credit in the world for drafting him and some even would call him a genius. Considering the Packers weakness for playmakers on offense Metcalf would of been the BPA available in theory. I’m convinced “BPA” is a fancy thing GM’s say at the press conference after they draft players and not much more. In the end I believe you gotta go with guys you love that fit your scheme and can help you win.

As far as receivers taking 2-3 years to develop I disagree. DK Metcalf, AJ Brown and Deebo Samuel all carried there offenses to a degree this season as rookies. Yes, there still developing(which is great for there respective teams) but there rookie production was notable and helped their teams win games.

Now as far as the “Aaron Rodgers Needs time to Connect to Receivers” needs to go out to the trash can. We run a completely different scheme then back in the MM era that is designed to scheme guys open and the ball to come out and be delivered to the open guy on time. A almost 40 million a year franchise QB needs to make that throw to the open guy in the scheme and quit worrying about some Vulcan Mind Meld Connection. Period!



Agree completely with all of this. And you can add Hollywood Brown to the WR group as well. Injuries aside he had a huge impact with the Ravens. You can get guys that can help immediately assuming Rodgers gives them the opportunity, which he should.

[Bretsky]

BPA is a real thing, although there may be times when there are 2 or more players at the top of a team's board with basically the same grade. This happened in 2009 when the Packers took Raji even though they had Michael Crabtree rated as high. Gary would seem to be an obvious BPA pick since Edge was obviously not an area of need after signing the Smiths. Drafting Metcalf in the 1st round would have been a real reach based on the scouting reports about him. In fact, drafting any WR at #12 likely would have been a reach, based on how the draft went. It's not like teams weren't interested in great WR's. The value just wasn't there.


You really think Gary was the BPA over some of the offensives lineman still available ? They thought Gary was going to come in with his elite measurable ability and that is why one of the coaches referred to him so highly right after he was drafted. They wanted an absolutely elite defense with a terrorizing pass rush......a huge need......and ....a top 2-5 Defense . IMO they were going all in on defense

[Bretsky]

We still have the combine but at this time Reagor or Aiyuk should be there. Possibly Shenault as he is all over the place and probably because of reports and discrepancies that he runs 4.5 or 4.3 which will be revealed at combine. I would be shocked if any of them made it to pick 62. There might be the opportunity to trade back a few spots as others have posted and still get one. It’s really gonna come down to when “the run” on receivers starts after the top few guys(Juedy ,Ruggs, Lamb) get taken cause everyone is gonna hop on the bus that needs a receiver if you know what I mean.

The Combine will be critical but then you have to go back and watch the tape to make sure the speed matches up there(among other things) so there will be a bit of a shake up I imagine on some the prospects and where they rank.

That’s about the best answer i can give at this time.



I think if you can tap a top tier ILB you go there. If not, then you can strategize with WR's. A trade back would be ideal if your ILB's are gone.

If you get a top tier ILB in round one, then you see how the board is falling and wait til there are 2 WR's you love are left and then work to trade up in round 2

[GB-Brandon]

BPA is a real thing, although there may be times when there are 2 or more players at the top of a team's board with basically the same grade. This happened in 2009 when the Packers took Raji even though they had Michael Crabtree rated as high. Gary would seem to be an obvious BPA pick since Edge was obviously not an area of need after signing the Smiths. Drafting Metcalf in the 1st round would have been a real reach based on the scouting reports about him. In fact, drafting any WR at #12 likely would have been a reach, based on how the draft went. It's not like teams weren't interested in great WR's. The value just wasn't there.

If you could magically turn back the hands of time and you could either keep Gary or take Metcalf instead which one would you take?

I personally would take Metcalf and run. I’m not sure how Gary has any real high value other then measurables and combine numbers while looking good in the uniform because it sure wasn’t his tape or production college. I understand GM’s are trying to project these players to the next level but IMO Gary’s lack of production didn’t make him a top 12 talent or even close to BPA. Maybe “Best Athlete Available”. Big difference.

How much “Value” did Tony Mandarich have for that matter?

In Metcalf’s case he dropped because of a bad “3 cone time” but his production in college was there so everybody got it wrong because of 3 cone drill and concern over his route tree. Just Ridiculous! Looking back I’m not sure that a guy that can run that fast and is that big with his strength and explosion that can track a ball downfield and catch it(which he showed in college)isn’t worthy of a top 12 pick to be just insane.

Metcalf certainly put tape down and production as rookie to merit the “Value” of a top 12 pick. Meanwhile Gary struggled to even get snaps over Kyler Fackrell.

So Metcalf Projected both physically and with tape. Nobody would of blinked an eye if the Packers would of drafted Metcalf 12th and called us crazy. In fact, when Gary was selected at the bar I was at next to Lambeau everyone was disgusted and most people left. Many people wanted Metcalf at 12.

[Bretsky]

If you could magically turn back the hands of time and you could either keep Gary or take Metcalf instead which one would you take?

I personally would take Metcalf and run. I’m not sure how Gary has any real high value other then measurables and combine numbers while looking good in the uniform because it sure wasn’t his tape or production college. I understand GM’s are trying to project these players to the next level but IMO Gary’s lack of production didn’t make him a top 12 talent or even close to BPA. Maybe “Best Athlete Available”. Big difference.

How much “Value” did Tony Mandarich have for that matter?

In Metcalf’s case he dropped because of a bad “3 cone time” but his production in college was there so everybody got it wrong because of 3 cone drill and concern over his route tree. Just Ridiculous! Looking back I’m not sure that a guy that can run that fast and is that big with his strength and explosion that can track a ball downfield and catch it(which he showed in college)isn’t worthy of a top 12 pick to be just insane.

Metcalf certainly put tape down and production as rookie to merit the “Value” of a top 12 pick. Meanwhile Gary struggled to even get snaps over Kyler Fackrell.

So Metcalf Projected both physically and with tape. Nobody would of blinked an eye if the Packers would of drafted Metcalf 12th and called us crazy. In fact, when Gary was selected at the bar I was at next to Lambeau everyone was disgusted and most people left. Many people wanted Metcalf at 12.



NO SECRET where I've stood on this one from the day he was drafted. I hated the Gary piick. He was the 3rd best LB on the Michigan team. When Wisconsin played Michigan, they didn't worry about Gary.

Denver was taking calls but reportedly by both ESPN and NFL network did not want to trade down far. Guter dropped the ball and let Pittsburg jump us and get the perfect ILB for our system.

To your question, without hesitation I'd take Metcalf.

But even on draft day, I'd have taken several players ahead of Gary.

[GB-Brandon]

I think if you can tap a top tier ILB you go there. If not, then you can strategize with WR's. A trade back would be ideal if your ILB's are gone.

If you get a top tier ILB in round one, then you see how the board is falling and wait til there are 2 WR's you love are left and then work to trade up in round 2

Yeah If Murray is on the board at 30 then maybe you pull the trigger based on how the WR’s are moving off the board and trade up in 2nd. You could do it vice versa as well depending on what’s moving. If they ended up with Reagor or Aiyuk and Jordyn Brooks or Murray I would be stoked. They would most likely have to give up there 3rd and maybe more to get it done though.

[GB-Brandon]

Agree completely with all of this. And you can add Hollywood Brown to the WR group as well. Injuries aside he had a huge impact with the Ravens. You can get guys that can help immediately assuming Rodgers gives them the opportunity, which he should.

Yes, I mentioned Brown in an earlier post regarding this and Mecole Hardman for that matter for the Chiefs. Brown was a big component stretching the defense and keeping defenses honest in the Ravens run heavy attack. Hardman gave the Chiefs yet another big play weapon.

[GB-Brandon]

NO SECRET where I've stood on this one from the day he was drafted. I hated the Gary piick. He was the 3rd best LB on the Michigan team. When Wisconsin played Michigan, they didn't worry about Gary.

Denver was taking calls but reportedly by both ESPN and NFL network did not want to trade down far. Guter dropped the ball and let Pittsburg jump us and get the perfect ILB for our system.

To your question, without hesitation I'd take Metcalf.

But even on draft day, I'd have taken several players ahead of Gary.

Gary also got ran over by Ohio State. Nobody was scared of him.

Oh yeah. I would of taken Simmons. I wanted Deebo Samuel or Parris Campbell later but they screwed that up with the big trade up for Savage.

[pbmax]

I think if you can tap a top tier ILB you go there. If not, then you can strategize with WR's. A trade back would be ideal if your ILB's are gone.

If you get a top tier ILB in round one, then you see how the board is falling and wait til there are 2 WR's you love are left and then work to trade up in round 2

Experience says the do everything ILB will not be there at 30 unless lightning strikes. And that is usually in the fourth round.

[pbmax]

You can get guys that can help immediately assuming Rodgers gives them the opportunity, which he should.

Assumes facts not in evidence. Receivers obviously need to show they will get the job done ( secure the ball) before he trusts them twice.

[pbmax]

BPA like anything else can just be a buzzword.

But drafting the best prospect (best physical traits and production) is a real thing. Ignoring position unless ratings are similar.

Gary was a projection from traits, not from production.

No idea if he was top of their board. They acted like it though.

[Joemailman]

If you could magically turn back the hands of time and you could either keep Gary or take Metcalf instead which one would you take?

I personally would take Metcalf and run. I’m not sure how Gary has any real high value other then measurables and combine numbers while looking good in the uniform because it sure wasn’t his tape or production college. I understand GM’s are trying to project these players to the next level but IMO Gary’s lack of production didn’t make him a top 12 talent or even close to BPA. Maybe “Best Athlete Available”. Big difference.

How much “Value” did Tony Mandarich have for that matter?

In Metcalf’s case he dropped because of a bad “3 cone time” but his production in college was there so everybody got it wrong because of 3 cone drill and concern over his route tree. Just Ridiculous! Looking back I’m not sure that a guy that can run that fast and is that big with his strength and explosion that can track a ball downfield and catch it(which he showed in college)isn’t worthy of a top 12 pick to be just insane.

Metcalf certainly put tape down and production as rookie to merit the “Value” of a top 12 pick. Meanwhile Gary struggled to even get snaps over Kyler Fackrell.

So Metcalf Projected both physically and with tape. Nobody would of blinked an eye if the Packers would of drafted Metcalf 12th and called us crazy. In fact, when Gary was selected at the bar I was at next to Lambeau everyone was disgusted and most people left. Many people wanted Metcalf at 12.

Actually plenty of people would have blinked an eye, including every GM in the NFL. There are reasons he lasted to the last pick of the 2nd round. Every knew he was a physical freak, but there were questions about his route running and his health. There were enough questions about Metcalf that he should not have been the 12th pick. An argument could certainly be made that the Packers should have taken him with their 2nd round pick.

For the record, I don't think either Gary or Metcalf should have been the 12th pick.

[Bretsky]

Actually plenty of people would have blinked an eye, including every GM in the NFL. There are reasons he lasted to the last pick of the 2nd round. Every knew he was a physical freak, but there were questions about his route running and his health. There were enough questions about Metcalf that he should not have been the 12th pick. An argument could certainly be made that the Packers should have taken him with their 2nd round pick.

For the record, I don't think either Gary or Metcalf should have been the 12th pick.



I can't remember; I'm getting old

Who was your guy at 12 Joe ?

[GB-Brandon]

Actually plenty of people would have blinked an eye, including every GM in the NFL. There are reasons he lasted to the last pick of the 2nd round. Every knew he was a physical freak, but there were questions about his route running and his health. There were enough questions about Metcalf that he should not have been the 12th pick. An argument could certainly be made that the Packers should have taken him with their 2nd round pick.

For the record, I don't think either Gary or Metcalf should have been the 12th pick.

Well Metcalf had a great season and shattered the playoff single game record for receiving yards by a rookie. He certainly produced like a top 12 pick and that’s what matters. For whatever reason GM’s got it wrong. Sometimes I think people tend to over-think these things. To me the combine is a formality of what you see on tape. I suppose others see it differently and think they can teach this phenomenal athlete how to play football.

My main issue in all of this is we ignored the WR position as whole in the entire draft and FA and instead purged a top 12 pick(that nobody apparently likes) followed by trading up in the first round just to take another defensive player. All of this after throwing 150 million on the defense in FA just to give up a record breaking rushing performance to the Niners in the NFC Champ game that was very embarrassing to say the least.

It just seems to be a constant trend to draft DB’s and other defensive players over and over again(based on need) with high picks and hide behind this “Best Player Available” pitch. We’ve passed up on more good WR’s that can help us win then I can count. I suppose now there is finally so much pressure to get more weapons on offense that they will finally do it. I just hope it isn’t too late.

[mraynrand]

Brandon, Metcalf has limitations and he looked
Like a risk to a lot of people. Go back and look how he was pretty much taken out of the game vs GB. Now, you can make the case that he’ll be a beast going forward and just get better as he picks up the game, but none of that was certain when the Packers were picking at 12.

I get that you and others wanted offense. Totally defensible. I can’t know what the thinking was with Gary but I suspect they were picking him early hoping for an all pro ceiling and hedging on their FA guesses and knowing they lost Clay and would loss Fackrell. The OLB cupboard was bare.

Anyway, here’s hoping they get offense this year and Gary pans out as a OLB monster.

[GB-Brandon]

Brandon, Metcalf has limitations and he looked
Like a risk to a lot of people. Go back and look how he was pretty much taken out of the game vs GB. Now, you can make the case that he’ll be a beast going forward and just get better as he picks up the game, but none of that was certain when the Packers were picking at 12.

I get that you and others wanted offense. Totally defensible. I can’t know what the thinking was with Gary but I suspect they were picking him early hoping for an all pro ceiling and hedging on their FA guesses and knowing they lost Clay and would loss Fackrell. The OLB cupboard was bare.

Anyway, here’s hoping they get offense this year and Gary pans out as a OLB monster.

As I’ve posted Metcalf wasn’t my pick at 12. I wanted Simmons and either Deebo or Parris Campbell later. I’m simply stating if Gary was a legit top 12 pick and “BPA” then why wasn’t Metcalf? To me Gary had more red flags then Metcalf. In fact Gary has a torn labrum(injured before draft) that at some point is probably gonna need surgery. It’s one of those injuries that you can play with but will degenerate over time.

Metcalf had a PFF rating of about 70 this season. He had 58 receptions for 900 yards(15.5 yard average) and 7 TD’s. Your right! He needs some more development as right now he just out-physicals lesser db’s but if he can turn the corner on a few things as you mentioned he could be something real real special. From what I gather he is dialed in and works on his craft outside of practice. One of those guys that is running routes and catching balls two hours after practice sometimes. Him opposite Adams with a nice slot/jackknife option like Reagor(preferably) or Aiyuk along with AJ would have our offense being lethal and actually putting fear into opponents again.

[GB-Brandon]

My reasoning for liking Reagor over Aiyuk is Reagor has that special Tyreek Hill like gear and his tape shows that he appears to be better at catching contested balls in smaller windows which is closer to what it will be like in the jump to the pros. I also like how Reagor can time and high point the ball.

[jklowan]

I'm thinking we either need to trade up 5-6 spots to get an ILB in the 1st or trade down to get Reagor in the early 2nd

[Joemailman]

I'm thinking we either need to trade up 5-6 spots to get an ILB in the 1st or trade down to get Reagor in the early 2nd

Right now a lot of mocks are showing Kenneth Murray available to the Packers at #30. We'll see if that changes after the Combine. Hopefully he struggles a bit. :)

Last year Devin White and Devin Bush went in the top 10, but that was it for ILB's in the 1st round.

[jklowan]

most mocks I run have all 3 top ILB gone by 29

[Joemailman]

most mocks I run have all 3 top ILB gone by 29

Ravens at 28 need a linebacker after losing CJ Mosley in FA last year. Possible Packers would have to jump ahead of them to get Murray.

[Joemailman]

Packers are 23rd in Draft Power Rankings http://www.tankathon.com/nfl/power_rankings Did you know there was such a thing?

Dolphins are 1st with 3 1st round picks and 2 2nd round picks.

[pbmax]

I'm thinking we either need to trade up 5-6 spots to get an ILB in the 1st or trade down to get Reagor in the early 2nd

You have to get ahead of the Steelers and then get ahead of them again when they trade in front of you the second time.

They are a crafty bunch.

[Bretsky]

You have to get ahead of the Steelers and then get ahead of them again when they trade in front of you the second time.

They are a crafty bunch.


F'CKIN STELLERS

BAD MEMORIES


aka....TJ WATT......//ThanksDumbShitTedforfuckingthatoneup

aka...DEVIN BUSH...//NiceJobGuterSteelerstrumpedyouagain

[pbmax]

F'CKIN STELLERS

BAD MEMORIES


aka....TJ WATT......//ThanksDumbShitTedforfuckingthatoneup

aka...DEVIN BUSH...//NiceJobGuterSteelerstrumpedyouagain

Traded up to get Shazier too.

[mraynrand]

Gary was a projection from traits, not from production.

yep. How do you get an All pro OLB at #12? You take a chance based on potential over production.

[mraynrand]

Traded up to get Shazier too.

Several other picks too. Thing is, how many Lombardis do the Steelers have in the past decade?

[pbmax]

Several other picks too. Thing is, how many Lombardis do the Steelers have in the past decade?

Its possible the Steelers are drafting based on scouting by Packer Rats.

[pbmax]

Several other picks too. Thing is, how many Lombardis do the Steelers have in the past decade?

Just like the Packers, the Steelers spent nearly a decade rebuilding their old 3-4 LeBeau zone. They even fired LeBeau to do it. Makes the Packers rebuild seem quaint.

However, during that rebuild they found Brown, Bell and Smith-Smythe-Schuster too. Weird, because the Steelers traded up a lot in early rounds.

[run pMc]

I like Reagor better than Aiyuk. Aiyuk has nice burst but you could see him getting caught from behind a few times on the youtube highlights. Reagor hits that top gear fast and he's gone. Worry about both of them -- they have a lot of room to grow on routes.
Apparently Denzel Mims made noise at the Senior Bowl practices, he's another one. Bigger guy, not as much of a burner as Reagor, but few are.

I'm starting to think a FA WR could very well happen...maybe it's all the talk here. They need help at WR, ILB, OT and DL... and I think if they wait until R3 for a WR the top 10 WRs will be gone by then. After Lamb/Jeudy go I expect there will be a late R1 run and mid R2 run on them.

BPA all the way. ;)

[Bretsky]

yep. How do you get an All pro OLB at #12? You take a chance based on potential over production.


Don't buy this logic at all.

Ask Pittsburg the same question

This was a reach and a bad one

[Bretsky]

Several other picks too. Thing is, how many Lombardis do the Steelers have in the past decade?


Is the answer the same as GB without the best QB in the NFL ?

[Bretsky]

Its possible the Steelers are drafting based on scouting by Packer Rats.


F'ckers have been stealing my shit all these years

[Joemailman]

Don't buy this logic at all.

Ask Pittsburg the same question

This was a reach and a bad one

A reach is if you draft a guy in the 1st round because he fills a need even though you had a 3rd round grade on him. If Gary turns out to be a bust, I think it will just be a big mistake, not a reach.

[mraynrand]

Is the answer the same as GB without the best QB in the NFL ?

Neither the Steelers or the Packers have Brady or Mahomes.

[mraynrand]

Don't buy this logic at all.

Ask Pittsburg the same question

This was a reach and a bad one

So you say. I’m arguing they drafted him for 2020
And beyond so we don’t know yet.

[Bretsky]

So you say. I’m arguing they drafted him for 2020
And beyond so we don’t know yet.

You might have missed my point.

I do agree you should be getting an elite talent at pick 12; I referenced Pittsburg since they got theirs aka///ThanksTed at pick 30

[Bretsky]

Neither the Steelers or the Packers have Brady or Mahomes.


Rodgers was the top QB in the NFL, arguably I guess....but undoubtedly elite for many years.

[Bretsky]

A reach is if you draft a guy in the 1st round because he fills a need even though you had a 3rd round grade on him. If Gary turns out to be a bust, I think it will just be a big mistake, not a reach.

You are right; he was projected in round one so he was not a reach. I know I've pounded this table too many times but I'm still baffled at how some teams think they can magically bring things out nobody has before.

[Joemailman]

Bill Huber's 7 round Packer mock draft.

https://www.si.com/nfl/packers/news/packers-mock-draft-2


First round – LB Kenneth Murray, Oklahoma (6-2, 234): Murray, who started as an 18-year-old freshman, was an All-American as a junior in 2019 with team-leading totals of 102 tackles and 17 tackles for losses. This was the pick in my first mock. This time, I had my choice between Murray and LSU’s Patrick Queen. Based on conversations with a few scouts I’ve talked to at this early stage of the process, I stuck with Murray.

Second round – TE Cole Kmet, Notre Dame (6-5, 250): For a second, I considered taking Kmet at No. 30. He’s the best all-around tight end in the draft and would provide an excellent complement to last year’s third-round pick, Jace Sternberger. In his 2019 debut, he caught 43 receptions for 515 yards and six touchdowns and had a dominant performance against Georgia.

Third round – WR Denzel Mims, Baylor (6-3, 215): Mims caught 66 passes for 1,020 yards and 12 touchdowns, then went out and dominated at the Senior Bowl. In high school, he was the Texas state champion in the 200 meters. His size and burst will provide a much-needed boost on the perimeter.

Fourth round – WR Devin Duvernay, Texas (5-11, 210): In the third round, it was almost a coin flip between Mims, the perimeter receiver, and Duvernay, the slot prospect. Duvernay had a monster senior season with 103 receptions for 1,249 yards and eight touchdowns. He led the nation in receptions and receptions per game (8.6). In an early-season game against LSU, he caught 12 passes for 154 yards and two touchdowns.

[Bretsky]

Bill Huber's 7 round Packer mock draft.

https://www.si.com/nfl/packers/news/packers-mock-draft-2



CAN WE JUST SIGN UP FOR THESE PICKS NOW; I"LL TAKE THEM !!

[GB-Brandon]

Bill Huber's 7 round Packer mock draft.

https://www.si.com/nfl/packers/news/packers-mock-draft-2

I like Murray at 30. Not sure about taking a TE in 2nd after we just drafted S Berger in 3rd last year. I suppose it wouldn’t be the worse thing in LaFleurs offense.

Mimms kinda gives us what we already have(would rather have Hill or Cephus). I’m not on the Duvernay bus. He basically ran two routes at Texas. He has speed but is more of a 1 trick pony. We need more then a guy that just has some straight line speed.

We can do better then this. I want “twitchy” short area quickness and not sure this draft accomplishes that.

[Joemailman]

CAN WE JUST SIGN UP FOR THESE PICKS NOW; I"LL TAKE THEM !!

Nope. You'll just have to wait and see what Santa Gutey brings you.

[Joemailman]

I like Murray at 30. Not sure about taking a TE in 2nd after we just drafted S Berger in 3rd last year. I suppose it wouldn’t be the worse thing in LaFleurs offense.

Mimms kinda gives us what we already have(would rather have Hill or Cephus). I’m not on the Duvernay bus. He basically ran two routes at Texas. He has speed but is more of a 1 trick pony. We need more then a guy that just has some straight line speed.

We can do better then this. I want “twitchy” short area quickness and not sure this draft accomplishes that.

Definitely room for 2 TE receiving threats in this offense. Duvernay doesn't have a complete game, but I think would be a good value in the 4th round. Could be dangerous in the slot. Hill is smooth as silk but doesn't look that athletic to me. Limited upside? I think Cephus has more talent.

[Bretsky]

I like Murray at 30. Not sure about taking a TE in 2nd after we just drafted S Berger in 3rd last year. I suppose it wouldn’t be the worse thing in LaFleurs offense.

Mimms kinda gives us what we already have(would rather have Hill or Cephus). I’m not on the Duvernay bus. He basically ran two routes at Texas. He has speed but is more of a 1 trick pony. We need more then a guy that just has some straight line speed.

We can do better then this. I want “twitchy” short area quickness and not sure this draft accomplishes that.:knll::knll:

[Bretsky]

Ceephus is right in our dam backyard
Due Diligence will show the coaches he loves the game, works hard, is beloved by his teammates, and is a leader. Let him fall into our laps.

ANYBODY HEAR ME SAY THAT A FEW YEARS AGO ?????????????//


Santa Gutey, don't be like //thankstedforTJWATT and do this to me again !!

[mraynrand]

Rodgers was the top QB in the NFL, arguably I guess....but undoubtedly elite for many years.

So was Ben

[Bretsky]

So was Ben


You considered Ben the best QB in the NFL.....or elite multiple seasons ? You think he's better than I do then. He was a very good QB with limited to no mobility. You had to have the talent stacked around him and I don't think he made anybody better.


Some would argue AROD is top 10 all time

Nobody IMO would mention Ben there

[Deputy Nutz]

Latest draft on Fanspeak:
OT AUSTIN JACKSON USC
TE COLE KMET NOTRE DAME
LB AKEEM DAVIS-GAITHER APPALACHIAN STATE
WR COLLIN JOHNSON TEXAS

Davis-Gaither would be a steal in the 3rd round. Looks like his Senior Bowl performance will get him to climb the draft boards. Small school player, big time player.

I like Davis-Gaither, but he is like a big nickel or small outside linebacker. He is not an inside guy at all.

[Deputy Nutz]

I like Murray at 30. Not sure about taking a TE in 2nd after we just drafted S Berger in 3rd last year. I suppose it wouldn’t be the worse thing in LaFleurs offense.

Mimms kinda gives us what we already have(would rather have Hill or Cephus). I’m not on the Duvernay bus. He basically ran two routes at Texas. He has speed but is more of a 1 trick pony. We need more then a guy that just has some straight line speed.

We can do better then this. I want “twitchy” short area quickness and not sure this draft accomplishes that.

I like Mims a lot. He shows a lot after the catch, reminds me of Adams, high points the football, catches the ball away from his body. He can go back shoulder on some passes. Also a decent blocker on the outside.
The guy I hope has a decent combine, but nothing flashy is Tyler Johnson from Minnesota.

Cephus has question marks, and I am not talking about what happened in his apartment. I am talking about what his combine numbers are going to tell us. I am not sure he can run under a 4.5 forty. He is pretty good at catching the ball in close quarters, but I don't see a lot of separation from him. This is just watching as a fan, not scouting the guy for the next level. Cephus might be a steal in later round especially if teams pass on him for questions outside of the football field

[mraynrand]

The guy I hope has a decent combine, but nothing flashy is Tyler Johnson from Minnesota.

+1

[run pMc]

I like Mims a lot. He shows a lot after the catch, reminds me of Adams, high points the football, catches the ball away from his body. He can go back shoulder on some passes. Also a decent blocker on the outside.
The guy I hope has a decent combine, but nothing flashy is Tyler Johnson from Minnesota.

Cephus has question marks, and I am not talking about what happened in his apartment. I am talking about what his combine numbers are going to tell us. I am not sure he can run under a 4.5 forty. He is pretty good at catching the ball in close quarters, but I don't see a lot of separation from him. This is just watching as a fan, not scouting the guy for the next level. Cephus might be a steal in later round especially if teams pass on him for questions outside of the football field

Yeah I like Mims and Tyler Johnson too. I think Mims is more explosive and will get drafted before Johnson. If he's an Adams clone I'm ok with that... two are better than one. I also think the off field stuff with Cephus will give teams pause and drop him lower than he'd otherwise go.
Is he overrated by some here because he's a Badger? Seems like he was pretty decent WR for WI but that offense revolves around it's running game.

Watched Duvernay, didn't expect to like him but he has very good speed and production. I question his quickness -- more like a sprinter than a human joystick -- and from what I saw he lined up mostly in the slot. Wouldn't take him high but I'm not sure GB has anybody like him either so I'm on the fence with him. Maybe he's James Washington.

I watched some of Kenneth Murray Jr. He can he run - he's clearly faster than Martinez. His game needs refinement but he has natural skills and I like him. He'd have better luck stopping Mostert in the hole or running outside than Blake. Haven't watched much of Patrick Queen yet but he seems like he'd be ok too.

[GB-Brandon]

Definitely room for 2 TE receiving threats in this offense. Duvernay doesn't have a complete game, but I think would be a good value in the 4th round. Could be dangerous in the slot. Hill is smooth as silk but doesn't look that athletic to me. Limited upside? I think Cephus has more talent.

I like Hill because he is ready to go in the slot day 1. He lacks massive explosion but so did Cobb. I feel he would be better and more effective then what we have now. Hill isn’t my first choice to help revamp the position but if there gonna try and do it later in the draft like OP then I like Hill and Cephus over guys mentioned..

[GB-Brandon]

I like Mims a lot. He shows a lot after the catch, reminds me of Adams, high points the football, catches the ball away from his body. He can go back shoulder on some passes. Also a decent blocker on the outside.
The guy I hope has a decent combine, but nothing flashy is Tyler Johnson from Minnesota.

Cephus has question marks, and I am not talking about what happened in his apartment. I am talking about what his combine numbers are going to tell us. I am not sure he can run under a 4.5 forty. He is pretty good at catching the ball in close quarters, but I don't see a lot of separation from him. This is just watching as a fan, not scouting the guy for the next level. Cephus might be a steal in later round especially if teams pass on him for questions outside of the football field

Cephus may not have long speed but we don’t need that as much right now so fine with 4.5’s. Cephus is “twitchy” on tape in short spaces and that’s exactly what we do need. He shows the ability to separate at the last second which is what you wanna see. He also wins 50/50 balls more often then not. if you liked James Jones then your gonna love Quintez Cephus!!!

[Deputy Nutz]

Isaiah Simmons is not an inside linebacker, he is the true definition of a hybrid player. Think of a cross between Derwin James and Leroy Butler. He is more safety than linebacker. He is not Derrick Brooks. Not that it matters as he wasn't in the Packers wheelhouse. Draft sites have him listed as a linebacker but he would be more of an outside linebacker that either apexes the #2 or lines up over the #2 receiver. He plays in space to the outside, or center field. I think he is athletic enough to play the middle, especially in nickel or dime, but the two films I watched I don't see a guy ready and willing to take on blockers.

[Deputy Nutz]

Alright watched two films on Quintez Cephus. He's good. This might be taken as a back handed compliment, but his best trait is his blocking downfield. NFL teams should watch his blocking and simply fall in love with this kid. He is a polished route runner, and he can catch the football, especially acrobatic contested catches. He reminds of Anquan Boldin a little bit. He might be a bit more explosive.

Watching some of these receivers the last couple of day like Reagor, and Shenault I can't get over how bad the QB play is in college football. The Badgers were actually in good hands with Jack Coan. Most of the time if I am not watching the Badgers I am watching Ohio St, Clemson, Alabama, LSU Etc.... and those teams are usually led by quality college QBs. I was shocked to see how bad the Colorado and Texas Christian QBs were.

[RashanGary]

Troy Dye is an interesting linebacker prospect. Speed, length, instincts, coverage knack, work ethic, sheds blocks. Body needs to fill out, but nice late 2nd high upside ILB prospect

[Deputy Nutz]

Troy Dye is an interesting linebacker prospect. Speed, length, instincts, coverage knack, work ethic, sheds blocks. Body needs to fill out, but nice late 2nd high upside ILB prospect

His film made me throw up in my mouth.

[Fritz]

His film made me throw up in my mouth.


Which then created . . . a film in your mouth.

[run pMc]

Alright watched two films on Quintez Cephus. He's good. This might be taken as a back handed compliment, but his best trait is his blocking downfield. NFL teams should watch his blocking and simply fall in love with this kid. He is a polished route runner, and he can catch the football, especially acrobatic contested catches. He reminds of Anquan Boldin a little bit. He might be a bit more explosive.

Watching some of these receivers the last couple of day like Reagor, and Shenault I can't get over how bad the QB play is in college football. The Badgers were actually in good hands with Jack Coan. Most of the time if I am not watching the Badgers I am watching Ohio St, Clemson, Alabama, LSU Etc.... and those teams are usually led by quality college QBs. I was shocked to see how bad the Colorado and Texas Christian QBs were.


College quarterbacking is not good. Probably explains the value of a good pro NFL QB.
Re: Cephus, I watched one clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vzw3CTOCN8 and...he's ok. His routes improved over time, and he has good hands. Thicker body than I expected, but what surprised me was how few tackles he broke. Makes me think he won't give you any YAC. Agree the combine will be important for him -- he doesn't seem fast but he did run past some iffy corners on go routes. I'm inclined to think he's not very quick and has build-up speed. He's not bad but he feels like a Day 3 pick.

re: Dye, watched this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4u7RBUoUzk and he looks like a big safety...he has some speed to him but I wasn't impressed as a R2 pick. He'll need to be protected or he'll get engulfed every.single.time. Has trouble disengaging from blocks and I'm not sure how instinctive he is. Might have some coverage ability and looks like he can drop into zones, I wonder if he would be better as a 4-3 run-and-hit kind of backer. IIRC he played with a broken thumb which can affect how you play (ask Blake Martinez or Nick Perry about that) but I think he's there into R4 or 5 and could be a good ST player.

Maybe I just don't like anyone as more than a Day 3 pick today LOL.

[Bretsky]

Alright watched two films on Quintez Cephus. He's good. This might be taken as a back handed compliment, but his best trait is his blocking downfield. NFL teams should watch his blocking and simply fall in love with this kid. He is a polished route runner, and he can catch the football, especially acrobatic contested catches. He reminds of Anquan Boldin a little bit. He might be a bit more explosive.

Watching some of these receivers the last couple of day like Reagor, and Shenault I can't get over how bad the QB play is in college football. The Badgers were actually in good hands with Jack Coan. Most of the time if I am not watching the Badgers I am watching Ohio St, Clemson, Alabama, LSU Etc.... and those teams are usually led by quality college QBs. I was shocked to see how bad the Colorado and Texas Christian QBs were.



Glad you've come around with Cephus; he's the real deal. Surprised at the compliment on Coan though. If he could throw a deep ball Cephus would have had 5 more TD's.

Coan needs to be the backup next year IMO

[RashanGary]

His film made me throw up in my mouth.

I can't imagine what your own regurgitated cum and bad beer must taste like, but this is about as close as I'll get I suppose.

[RashanGary]

In all seriousness though, the stretch run game and play pass has become big in the NFL the last couple years, so undersized linebackers like Warner and Kwon Alexander and shaq Thompson are finding more and more use as the need to get sideline to sideline and then recover quickly if it's play/pass evolves.

Speed, coverage and instincts seem to be 1a, 1b and 1c when it comes to inside backers or 4-3 backers now a days

[RashanGary]

Top 5 pick I'd want an instinctive brute who can run like Wagner or kuekly or urlacher. But in mid rounds, if I had to give something up, I'd give up size before speed and coverage

[pbmax]

Let's just bug the Bears draft offices and select THEIR linebackers.

[mraynrand]

I can't imagine what your own regurgitated cum and bad beer must taste like, but this is about as close as I'll get I suppose.

shots fired

[Deputy Nutz]

Glad you've come around with Cephus; he's the real deal. Surprised at the compliment on Coan though. If he could throw a deep ball Cephus would have had 5 more TD's.

Coan needs to be the backup next year IMO

Mertz is a way more talented kid than Coan. I don't think anyone can deny that. My fear with the Badgers program is that they feel comfortable with "Old Reliable" as the signal caller. If the Badgers didn't have a 4 star, Elite 11 QB like Mertz waiting in the wings I think Badger fan would be thrilled with Jack Coan for another two years.


College quarterbacking is not good. Probably explains the value of a good pro NFL QB.
Re: Cephus, I watched one clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vzw3CTOCN8 and...he's ok. His routes improved over time, and he has good hands. Thicker body than I expected, but what surprised me was how few tackles he broke. Makes me think he won't give you any YAC. Agree the combine will be important for him -- he doesn't seem fast but he did run past some iffy corners on go routes. I'm inclined to think he's not very quick and has build-up speed. He's not bad but he feels like a Day 3 pick.

re: Dye, watched this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4u7RBUoUzk and he looks like a big safety...he has some speed to him but I wasn't impressed as a R2 pick. He'll need to be protected or he'll get engulfed every.single.time. Has trouble disengaging from blocks and I'm not sure how instinctive he is. Might have some coverage ability and looks like he can drop into zones, I wonder if he would be better as a 4-3 run-and-hit kind of backer. IIRC he played with a broken thumb which can affect how you play (ask Blake Martinez or Nick Perry about that) but I think he's there into R4 or 5 and could be a good ST player.

Maybe I just don't like anyone as more than a Day 3 pick today LOL.

Cephus doesn't have the juke. He is a get what you can type of receiver. When he catches the curl or the stick route he leans forward to get the most yards possible. I think a side by side comparison between Cephus and some of these other receivers you will notice not much difference in terms of athletic ability and football skill. Compare him to Mims, People-Jones, Shenault, or Aiyuk I don't think you are going to see a huge difference.

I think my comments on Dye have more to do with him being a top 5 linebacker in this draft and how shallow the pool is at linebacker. Dye isn't a world beater and I think if you had to draft him as a starter on day 1 you did something terribly wrong as a GM.

The wide zone scheme with the combination of a gap/power scheme that the 49ers used to decimate the Packers' run defense exposes the ability or lack of ability of the inside linebackers. Martinez who has started for the past 4 seasons struggled with it and was exposed, how would a mid round draft pick do in the same situation?

[pbmax]

The wide zone scheme with the combination of a gap/power scheme that the 49ers used to decimate the Packers' run defense exposes the ability or lack of ability of the inside linebackers. Martinez who has started for the past 4 seasons struggled with it and was exposed, how would a mid round draft pick do in the same situation?

Are you confident that the biggest factor is Martinez or the ILBs in general?

Because some of those clips from the playoff game look like the Northwestern guys were getting blocked before the snap (wrong alignment, wrong technique, fall down, get sealed). Hell there was a play that Montravious Adams beat a double team (was blown out of the hole at first but still got past one block) and was in his gap (roughly) and it was the best D line play of that run. Martinez was at least in his gap too but couldn't get completely free of the block. Their Guard just ran over the Nitro safety.

Its possible that in this defense or for his production, Martinez simply isn't worth the money, I get that. Especially if he is going to get north of $10-12 mil per year.

But with a safety hybrid collapsing like a card table and two D lineman just taking themselves out of the play (and Z Smith not holding an edge) mean there just aren't enough players making themselves available at the point of attack.

A speedy, run downhill and get TFLs ILB would help, but he is also going to allow big plays.

I'm just not sure what hole needs plugging most.

[Deputy Nutz]

Are you confident that the biggest factor is Martinez or the ILBs in general?

Because some of those clips from the playoff game look like the Northwestern guys were getting blocked before the snap (wrong alignment, wrong technique, fall down, get sealed). Hell there was a play that Montravious Adams beat a double team (was blown out of the hole at first but still got past one block) and was in his gap (roughly) and it was the best D line play of that run. Martinez was at least in his gap too but couldn't get completely free of the block. Their Guard just ran over the Nitro safety.

Its possible that in this defense or for his production, Martinez simply isn't worth the money, I get that. Especially if he is going to get north of $10-12 mil per year.

But with a safety hybrid collapsing like a card table and two D lineman just taking themselves out of the play (and Z Smith not holding an edge) mean there just aren't enough players making themselves available at the point of attack.

A speedy, run downhill and get TFLs ILB would help, but he is also going to allow big plays.

I'm just not sure what hole needs plugging most.

I was just speaking about the linebacker play (in a vacuum) in the San Fran game. I would be content signing Martinez to a 6 million avg per year deal, but it doesn't sound like that is going to happen. If the Packers had other options at that position I would even say to let him go for that price.

So you are going to have to fix something in the front seven. Is it drafting one or two defensive tackles and waiting for them to develop or drafting one or two linebackers and letting them develop? Either way they need to fill both spots to be more successful on defense. If the Packers are going to play with hybrid safeties then they need to specifically draft those types of players, because right now they don't have those guys. The Smiths are great against the pass, I was a bit shocked at how poorly they played against the heavy run scheme against the 49ers, but the Packers main area of need was pass rush going into the 2019 season and Gutter solved that problem. The Packers don't have a lot of money to play with in free agency, so signing a top end defensive tackle is sort of out of the question.

[Radagast]

Now is the time for GB to get ready to address it needs for the 2020 regular season. IMO, the Packers greatest needs are:

1.WR
2. ROT
3. ILB

Sign Martinez and make getting him some real help at ILB a priority.

Free agency can fill some or possibly all GB's needs, but I don't think it will. I would support trading draft picks if it would land a WR like CEE Dee Lamb from Oklahoma

[pbmax]

I was just speaking about the linebacker play (in a vacuum) in the San Fran game. I would be content signing Martinez to a 6 million avg per year deal, but it doesn't sound like that is going to happen. If the Packers had other options at that position I would even say to let him go for that price.

So you are going to have to fix something in the front seven. Is it drafting one or two defensive tackles and waiting for them to develop or drafting one or two linebackers and letting them develop? Either way they need to fill both spots to be more successful on defense. If the Packers are going to play with hybrid safeties then they need to specifically draft those types of players, because right now they don't have those guys. The Smiths are great against the pass, I was a bit shocked at how poorly they played against the heavy run scheme against the 49ers, but the Packers main area of need was pass rush going into the 2019 season and Gutter solved that problem. The Packers don't have a lot of money to play with in free agency, so signing a top end defensive tackle is sort of out of the question.

Yes, Z Smith was Matthews-like hit or miss against the run. Preston is big enough to hold an edge, but he was not there are much as Perry would be. With Preston I suspect that is a matter of focus because he seems strong and tough enough to plant himself.

Pass rush is the must have if your offense can score and, even if limited compared to other years, Packers can score. So they are going to have to get run D on the cheap.

Draft one ILB and DT at least and find some depth.

I suspect that Pettine's approach with this group is to one gap and chase upfield and play the run on the way. But a lot of the San Fran run game is designed to bury that with misdirection, motion and the power/gap game you mentioned. That offense might be kryptonite to this D.

I just don't think Lowry and Lancaster are good enough to help more.

[mraynrand]

Now is the time for GB to get ready to address it needs for the 2020 regular season.

I think they can relax for another week.

[pbmax]

Mike Renner @PFF_Mike
How I'd rank the relative strength of each position group in the 2020 draft class:

1. WR
2. OT
3. CB
4. DT
5. QB
6. RB
7. IOL
8. LB
9. Edge
10. S
11. TE

IF THIS GUY IS EVEN CLOSE TO CORRECT, NOT A BAD YEAR FOR PACKERS TO DRAFT.

[pbmax]

I think they can relax for another week.

No days off :D



https://youtu.be/lsYgM3Cv1iI

[pbmax]

Kenneth Murray: https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2020/02/13/prospect-for-the-pack-oklahoma-lb-kenneth-murray/



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2n55cW0FDU0



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0JmMLfW3es

[Deputy Nutz]

Murray is a fun guy to watch!

[mraynrand]

Why does anyone think Murray will last until the Packers pick?

[Deputy Nutz]

Any team that is desperate for a middle or inside linebacker will take Murray and Queen in the first round because there is zero depth to that positional group.

[run pMc]

Why does anyone think Murray will last until the Packers pick?

Because most believe there will be a run on QBs and OTs and probably 3 WRs taken before them in R1. There are defensive players at premium positions (Chase Young, Derrick Brown, Jeff Okudah, etc.) that will go early too, and even safeties like McKinney and Delpit.
Basically it depends on how you have your board and players ranked. Recent top 10 or top 15 ILBs have had to have special traits (Smith, Edmunds, White, Bush) and pre-combine/pro day I'm not sure they've sussed them out.
Right now it looks like Simmons will go early and Murray/Queen later in R1, if you believe the current draftniks' boards. I suppose it's possible all three could be gone by, say, pick 20, but I think at least one of Murray/Queen will be there at 30. If not, that likely means there's a good OT or WR left on the board, i.e., a BPA that fills an area of need. Even if they are there, I'm not 100% convinced Gute takes them over an OT if there's a good one there.

I will say that he's attacked areas of weakness pretty comprehensively (CB with Alexander, Jackson, Tramon; OLB with Smiths + Gary, S w/ Amos + Savage) so I'd expect him to go after ILBs and WRs pretty heavily. Based on his end of season comments I don't think he believes the problem is with the DL.

[mraynrand]

Because most believe there will be a run on QBs and OTs and probably 3 WRs taken before them in R1. There are defensive players at premium positions (Chase Young, Derrick Brown, Jeff Okudah, etc.) that will go early too, and even safeties like McKinney and Delpit.
Basically it depends on how you have your board and players ranked. Recent top 10 or top 15 ILBs have had to have special traits (Smith, Edmunds, White, Bush) and pre-combine/pro day I'm not sure they've sussed them out.
Right now it looks like Simmons will go early and Murray/Queen later in R1, if you believe the current draftniks' boards. I suppose it's possible all three could be gone by, say, pick 20, but I think at least one of Murray/Queen will be there at 30. If not, that likely means there's a good OT or WR left on the board, i.e., a BPA that fills an area of need. Even if they are there, I'm not 100% convinced Gute takes them over an OT if there's a good one there.

I will say that he's attacked areas of weakness pretty comprehensively (CB with Alexander, Jackson, Tramon; OLB with Smiths + Gary, S w/ Amos + Savage) so I'd expect him to go after ILBs and WRs pretty heavily. Based on his end of season comments I don't think he believes the problem is with the DL.

Interesting. Yea, as far as DL Gute seems (at least publicly) to think Mt. Adams will still progress too. Maybe that's pre-draft chicanery?

I wonder if Carolina will panic and sign Martinez or someone else for too much $$$ or focus on Murray or someone else and make their move in the draft.

[run pMc]

Mertz is a way more talented kid than Coan. I don't think anyone can deny that. My fear with the Badgers program is that they feel comfortable with "Old Reliable" as the signal caller. If the Badgers didn't have a 4 star, Elite 11 QB like Mertz waiting in the wings I think Badger fan would be thrilled with Jack Coan for another two years.



Cephus doesn't have the juke. He is a get what you can type of receiver. When he catches the curl or the stick route he leans forward to get the most yards possible. I think a side by side comparison between Cephus and some of these other receivers you will notice not much difference in terms of athletic ability and football skill. Compare him to Mims, People-Jones, Shenault, or Aiyuk I don't think you are going to see a huge difference.

I think my comments on Dye have more to do with him being a top 5 linebacker in this draft and how shallow the pool is at linebacker. Dye isn't a world beater and I think if you had to draft him as a starter on day 1 you did something terribly wrong as a GM.

The wide zone scheme with the combination of a gap/power scheme that the 49ers used to decimate the Packers' run defense exposes the ability or lack of ability of the inside linebackers. Martinez who has started for the past 4 seasons struggled with it and was exposed, how would a mid round draft pick do in the same situation?

I'm actually not that impressed with Aiyuk... he's ok, but doesn't seem like a Day 1 pick to me. Have to look at People-Jones, but I liked some of what I saw with Mims but Baylor and Michigan haven't produced a lot of great WRs lately. Shenault is very good after the catch. Cephus does some good things so I wasn't necessarily slagging him but if he's anything more than a Day3 pick you'd like to see more wiggle or something out of him to justify it. He has pro talent.

As for Dye, if he's picked earlier than R4 it's because the team is desperate, or he destroyed the combine. He's a developmental guy -- I'd be scared to start him Week 1, even as a replacement for Nitro safety. He could end up a good player, but I like some other ILBs better.

I wouldn't blame Martinez for all the run issues -- like pb, I saw the NW guys either get pushed out of gaps, play the wrong gap, or just end up on the ground. Blake is ok -- actually a great value given his production as a R4 pick -- but he'll struggle if he's gotta fight off an OL block and chase down Mostert before he hits the corner. That's just a limitation he has, and one Gute will likely work to fix with his ILBs. Ibraheim Campbell isn't gonna give him that much help when he's washed out of the play either.

Shanahan's offense caused havoc for a lot of defenses last year. If Pettine is any good he'll study the film and come up with some counters to it, and Gute will get him some speed.

My bigger issue with the ILBs is how the MOF has basically been wide open for QBs to make easy throws.

[RashanGary]

Murray looks slow to me. Good in college. Think that speed lack will be exposed in the NFL.

[RashanGary]

Mike Renner @PFF_Mike
How I'd rank the relative strength of each position group in the 2020 draft class:

1. WR
2. OT
3. CB
4. DT
5. QB
6. RB
7. IOL
8. LB
9. Edge
10. S
11. TE

IF THIS GUY IS EVEN CLOSE TO CORRECT, NOT A BAD YEAR FOR PACKERS TO DRAFT.

Even though DT is a relatively strong position group this year, really wish we woulda got Jeffrey Simmons last year. Best DT in the draft and a top 3 talent in almost any draft. Coming of ACL but he showed up for Tennessee when he got on the field. We'd be a completely different defense with Clark AND Simmons inside going into 2020.

Hopefully Gary puts it together in year two and starts shoving guys around like he's capable of doing and then working the speed off that, but damn, Simmons would have given us the best 1/2 DT tandem in football.

[run pMc]

Took a look at Peoples-Jones, he's not bad. He's not a burner, but I could see him as a R2 guy. He's got good size, decent hands, he returned punts and showed some YAC. I could see him as a Deebo-lite.

Looking at these guys via youtube, it's hard to see many of the routes and how good they run them, especially when the CB is playing 6-7 yards off and giving them a free release. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong videos, but for many of these guys there aren't a lot of reps showing them having to beat press, or showing how sharp their cuts are.

One other thing: Shea Patterson...whoa. That guy is all over the place. Some really good throws, and some WTH throws where DP-J bails him out. If Gute drafts Peoples-Jones at least we know he'll have scramble drill experience.

[Bretsky]

Even though DT is a relatively strong position group this year, really wish we woulda got Jeffrey Simmons last year. Best DT in the draft and a top 3 talent in almost any draft. Coming of ACL but he showed up for Tennessee when he got on the field. We'd be a completely different defense with Clark AND Simmons inside going into 2020.

Hopefully Gary puts it together in year two and starts shoving guys around like he's capable of doing and then working the speed off that, but damn, Simmons would have given us the best 1/2 DT tandem in football.




AMEN

[run pMc]

Even though DT is a relatively strong position group this year, really wish we woulda got Jeffrey Simmons last year. Best DT in the draft and a top 3 talent in almost any draft. Coming of ACL but he showed up for Tennessee when he got on the field. We'd be a completely different defense with Clark AND Simmons inside going into 2020.

Hopefully Gary puts it together in year two and starts shoving guys around like he's capable of doing and then working the speed off that, but damn, Simmons would have given us the best 1/2 DT tandem in football.

Many thought Simmons would've been a top 5 pick last year if not for the ACL. He surprised many (including TEN) by being ready and playing week 7. I think he'll be a cornerstone for them - he'd be a nice pairing with Clark.
FWIW, there was some talk on the Interwebz he might last until the GB pick at 30 last year but he was gone before they traded up to 21 for Savage.

[RashanGary]

Bretsky, I watched film on Simmons and the Williams guy who went top 3 and Simmons clearly had a better anchor, better knock back and was so consistent. That ACL made him a gift for a mid round 1 team.

[RashanGary]

I like that Murray is built like a linebacker. And he seems to play faster because he doesn't seem to be jittering around taking false steps. There have been a lot of great NFL linebackers that play faster than they time. Murray seems more sure of himself than White last year but Bush seemed to have a quick triggger shd was so much faster than Murray. Bush ran a 4.4 and played like it. Murray looks 4.7 to me.

[RashanGary]

WR, CB and OT are deep this year or so they say. I imagine a stud will slip through the cracks and fall to 30 at one of those positions. I'd rather a young borderline probowl type OT than a reach at ILB. I just don't get excited about these guys like I did with Bush last year

[pbmax]

Why does anyone think Murray will last until the Packers pick?

I'm just playing Mike Pettine here on the board, with my shopping list.

If you want draft strategy, you need Bretsky or Harv. Or Tank, if you want to travel back in time to the 2005 draft.

[pbmax]

Because most believe there will be a run on QBs and OTs and probably 3 WRs taken before them in R1. There are defensive players at premium positions (Chase Young, Derrick Brown, Jeff Okudah, etc.) that will go early too, and even safeties like McKinney and Delpit.
Basically it depends on how you have your board and players ranked. Recent top 10 or top 15 ILBs have had to have special traits (Smith, Edmunds, White, Bush) and pre-combine/pro day I'm not sure they've sussed them out.
Right now it looks like Simmons will go early and Murray/Queen later in R1, if you believe the current draftniks' boards. I suppose it's possible all three could be gone by, say, pick 20, but I think at least one of Murray/Queen will be there at 30. If not, that likely means there's a good OT or WR left on the board, i.e., a BPA that fills an area of need. Even if they are there, I'm not 100% convinced Gute takes them over an OT if there's a good one there.

I will say that he's attacked areas of weakness pretty comprehensively (CB with Alexander, Jackson, Tramon; OLB with Smiths + Gary, S w/ Amos + Savage) so I'd expect him to go after ILBs and WRs pretty heavily. Based on his end of season comments I don't think he believes the problem is with the DL.

I vote no on doubling up this year. If BPA demands it and that is what the board is giving you, move.

[pbmax]

If you dig up the guys tape on You Tube, post it here. I'm too lazy to go searching for everyone.

And beggars can't be choosers, but I think the tape of all game snaps are better than highlights, if that's an option.

[Joemailman]

Why does anyone think Murray will last until the Packers pick?

Why not? Last year only 2 ILB's were drafted in the 1st round. It could happen.

[mraynrand]

Why not? .

Just asking those in the know - might there be 3-4 other teams that like him before the Packers have a shot. Should they trade up? I don’t know.

[call_me_ishmael]

Nutzy do you think James Jones is a good comparison for Quintez? Minus the whole rapey thing. Similar body types I think but I have seen little of Cephus and it's hard to tell in UW offense anyway.

My stance is just take the best player available and figure it out. Ideally the best player in something where it's hard to find value lower in the draft generally such as a big body. Inevitably every starting spot is going to turn over in the next few years so you might as well get a star where you can.

[Bretsky]

Nutzy do you think James Jones is a good comparison for Quintez? Minus the whole rapey thing. Similar body types I think but I have seen little of Cephus and it's hard to tell in UW offense anyway.

My stance is just take the best player available and figure it out. Ideally the best player in something where it's hard to find value lower in the draft generally such as a big body. Inevitably every starting spot is going to turn over in the next few years so you might as well get a star where you can.


James Jones was a great guy, but his patterns where not that great. He was not Greg Jennings, who was really an elite route runner IMO. Cephus runs better routes than Jones IMO.

Personally Jones is not a guy I'd really be comparing him with

[wthigoot]

I vote no on doubling up this year. If BPA demands it and that is what the board is giving you, move.

Agreed in early rounds, but OK to double up with some of the 6ths and 7ths. Gutey has the Ted mojo with 5 late picks.

- Talented guys with character questions
- One trick ponies with the one trick that is useful (punt returner, gunner, etc.)
- Small college longshots
- Some random guys with a measureable or two

Who might those be?

Last mock, I just picked these guys at random, more for position than anything else:
6- Logan Sternberg, OG, 6-6, 322, Kentucky
6- Javaris Davis, CB, 5-10, 180, Auburn
7- Myles Dorn, S, 6-2, 205, North Carolina
7- Jacob Knipp, QB, 6-4, 218, Northern Colorado
7- Ke'Shawn Vaughn, RB, 5-10, 218, Vanderbilt

Anyone researched the late picks?

Didn't check the video thread yet, maybe there are some there.

[run pMc]

Agreed in early rounds

Yeah, I don't know about taking two players at same position in R1 & 2. I'm thinking more of Gute taking a WR in R2 and then another in R5. FA is going to drive some of this.

[pbmax]

Just asking those in the know - might there be 3-4 other teams that like him before the Packers have a shot. Should they trade up? I don’t know.

So in addition to bugging the Bears headquarters, Packers need to tie up Steeler phone lines so they can't trade back into the first.

[Deputy Nutz]

Murray looks slow to me. Good in college. Think that speed lack will be exposed in the NFL.

That would be one of the last adjectives I would use to describe him.

[Deputy Nutz]

Nutzy do you think James Jones is a good comparison for Quintez? Minus the whole rapey thing. Similar body types I think but I have seen little of Cephus and it's hard to tell in UW offense anyway.

My stance is just take the best player available and figure it out. Ideally the best player in something where it's hard to find value lower in the draft generally such as a big body. Inevitably every starting spot is going to turn over in the next few years so you might as well get a star where you can.

Jones was not a burning in the NFL but worked downfield to gain separation. He was good at finding holes in the zone. Jones is an easy comparison to guys you don't think are going to run fast but you have hope of a breakout in the NFL.

Here is my college comparison to Cephus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkpN1xiQhAg
Vs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rj0qfZVHh8

I recognize Adams went on to beome one of the better current receivers in the NFL, but watching his college film I don't think you would think that he would be considered on the top 5 receivers in the current NFL

[theeaterofshades]

Took trades that were offered to me based on where the board fell. At 30, both Murray and Queen were gone, so traded back.

41: R2P9
WR BRANDON AIYUK
ARIZONA STATE
62: R2P30
WR JALEN REAGOR
TCU
74: R3P10
LB MALIK HARRISON
OHIO STATE
90: R3P26
C MATT HENNESSY
TEMPLE
99: R3P35
TE HARRISON BRYANT
FLORIDA ATLANTIC
112: R4P9
DL BRAVVION ROY
BAYLOR
122: R4P19
LB EVAN WEAVER
CALIFORNIA
133: R4P30
G SOLOMON KINDLEY
GEORGIA
175: R5P29
OT JACK DRISCOLL
AUBURN
192: R6P13
TE COLBY PARKINSON
STANFORD
209: R6P30
DL BENITO JONES
MISSISSIPPI
224: R7P10
LB MARKUS BAILEY
PURDUE
242: R7P28
RB LEVANTE BELLAMY
WESTERN MICHIGAN
243: R7P29
S ALOHI GILMAN
NOTRE DAME

[Smidgeon]

Jones was not a burning in the NFL but worked downfield to gain separation. He was good at finding holes in the zone. Jones is an easy comparison to guys you don't think are going to run fast but you have hope of a breakout in the NFL.

Here is my college comparison to Cephus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkpN1xiQhAg
Vs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rj0qfZVHh8

I recognize Adams went on to beome one of the better current receivers in the NFL, but watching his college film I don't think you would think that he would be considered on the top 5 receivers in the current NFL

That clip of Adams still showed more use of route running to create separation than I usually see from college WRs. Maybe it's because I've grown to be aware of it in Adams' game now, so I can see its roots in college.

The things that stood out from that of Adams were the aforementioned examples of routes creating separation and his ability to catch while getting hit. I don't know in which order I'd rank "suitable WR skills that are also important in the NFL", but those two, agility, speed, and consistency seem to be roughly the Top 5.

[theeaterofshades]

Took trades that were offered to me based on where the board fell. At 30, both Murray and Queen were gone, so traded back.

41: R2P9
WR BRANDON AIYUK
ARIZONA STATE
62: R2P30
WR JALEN REAGOR
TCU
74: R3P10
LB MALIK HARRISON
OHIO STATE
90: R3P26
C MATT HENNESSY
TEMPLE
99: R3P35
TE HARRISON BRYANT
FLORIDA ATLANTIC
112: R4P9
DL BRAVVION ROY
BAYLOR
122: R4P19
LB EVAN WEAVER
CALIFORNIA
133: R4P30
G SOLOMON KINDLEY
GEORGIA
175: R5P29
OT JACK DRISCOLL
AUBURN
192: R6P13
TE COLBY PARKINSON
STANFORD
209: R6P30
DL BENITO JONES
MISSISSIPPI
224: R7P10
LB MARKUS BAILEY
PURDUE
242: R7P28
RB LEVANTE BELLAMY
WESTERN MICHIGAN
243: R7P29
S ALOHI GILMAN
NOTRE DAME


Ran another with more agressive trading:
10: R1P10
LB ISAIAH SIMMONS
CLEMSON
58: R2P26
WR JAUAN JENNINGS
TENNESSEE
65: R3P1
WR JALEN REAGOR
TCU
89: R3P25
C MATT HENNESSY
TEMPLE
94: R3P30
OT HAKEEM ADENIJI
KANSAS
113: R4P10
DL BRAVVION ROY
BAYLOR
133: R4P30
TE BRYCEN HOPKINS
PURDUE
147: R5P1
WR ANTONIO GANDY-GOLDEN
LIBERTY
165: R5P19
OT CALVIN THROCKMORTON
OREGON
175: R5P29
S JOHN REID
PENN STATE
180: R6P1
TE COLBY PARKINSON
STANFORD
192: R6P13
G STEVEN GONZALEZ
PENN STATE
209: R6P30
DL BENITO JONES
MISSISSIPPI
224: R7P10
CB MICHAEL OJEMUDIA
IOWA
242: R7P28
QB STEVEN MONTEZ
COLORADO
243: R7P29
RB LEVANTE BELLAMY
WESTERN MICHIGAN
TEAM DRAFT ASSESSMENT

TRADES
TRADE PARTNER:
CLEVELAND BROWNS
SENT:
ROUND: 1 PICK: 30
FUTURE ROUND 1 PICK
ROUND: 2 PICK: 30
RECEIVED:
ROUND: 1 PICK: 10
ROUND: 2 PICK: 9
TRADE PARTNER:
MINNESOTA VIKINGS
SENT:
ROUND: 2 PICK: 9
RECEIVED:
ROUND: 2 PICK: 26
ROUND: 3 PICK: 25
ROUND: 4 PICK: 26
TRADE PARTNER:
CINCINNATI BENGALS
SENT:
FUTURE ROUND 2 PICK
ROUND: 4 PICK: 26
RECEIVED:
ROUND: 3 PICK: 1
ROUND: 4 PICK: 1
ROUND: 5 PICK: 1
ROUND: 6 PICK: 1
TRADE PARTNER:
JACKSONVILLE JAGUARS
SENT:
ROUND: 4 PICK: 1
RECEIVED:
ROUND: 4 PICK: 10
ROUND: 5 PICK: 19

or

18: R1P18
LB PATRICK QUEEN
LSU
46: R2P14
DL JUSTIN MADUBUIKE
TEXAS A&M
70: R3P6
WR JALEN REAGOR
TCU
72: R3P8
DL RAEKWON DAVIS
ALABAMA
77: R3P13
TE HARRISON BRYANT
FLORIDA ATLANTIC
99: R3P35
LB LOGAN WILSON
WYOMING
122: R4P19
WR QUINTEZ CEPHUS
WISCONSIN
151: R5P5
WR ANTONIO GANDY-GOLDEN
LIBERTY
175: R5P29
OT CALVIN THROCKMORTON
OREGON
186: R6P7
S GENO STONE
IOWA
192: R6P13
CB A.J. GREEN
OKLAHOMA STATE
209: R6P30
DL JOSIAH COATNEY
MISSISSIPPI
224: R7P10
LB MICHAEL PINCKNEY
MIAMI
242: R7P28
G TREVOUR WALLACE-SIMMS
MISSOURI
243: R7P29
RB LEVANTE BELLAMY
WESTERN MICHIGAN

TRADES
TRADE PARTNER:
NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
SENT:
ROUND: 3 PICK: 30
RECEIVED:
ROUND: 3 PICK: 35
ROUND: 4 PICK: 19
TRADE PARTNER:
DENVER BRONCOS
SENT:
ROUND: 2 PICK: 8
RECEIVED:
ROUND: 2 PICK: 14
ROUND: 3 PICK: 13
TRADE PARTNER:
MIAMI DOLPHINS
SENT:
FUTURE ROUND 1 PICK
ROUND: 2 PICK: 30
RECEIVED:
ROUND: 1 PICK: 18
ROUND: 3 PICK: 6
TRADE PARTNER:
LA CHARGERS
SENT:
ROUND: 4 PICK: 30
RECEIVED:
ROUND: 5 PICK: 5
ROUND: 6 PICK: 7
TRADE PARTNER:
ARIZONA CARDINALS
SENT:
ROUND: 1 PICK: 30
RECEIVED:
ROUND: 2 PICK: 8
ROUND: 3 PICK: 8

[Deputy Nutz]

That clip of Adams still showed more use of route running to create separation than I usually see from college WRs. Maybe it's because I've grown to be aware of it in Adams' game now, so I can see its roots in college.

The things that stood out from that of Adams were the aforementioned examples of routes creating separation and his ability to catch while getting hit. I don't know in which order I'd rank "suitable WR skills that are also important in the NFL", but those two, agility, speed, and consistency seem to be roughly the Top 5.

I can't tell by your description of the above video if you watched it or not, because it showed a lack of a route tree run by Adams. He ran comebacks, goes, bubbles, and some slants. That's pretty simplified.

[run pMc]

I can't tell by your description of the above video if you watched it or not, because it showed a lack of a route tree run by Adams. He ran comebacks, goes, bubbles, and some slants. That's pretty simplified.

The clip showed him making sharp cuts on a couple of slants and on one play beat press coverage with some of his now trademark footwork...he was a little sloppy on some routes but you could see the potential. I'm not sure I'd put Cephus quite in his class, but I am warming up to him a little.
I just think the legal stuff and being down the road in Madison will make him less of a consideration for GB, or maybe that's just me expecting Gute to be like TT.

Bryan Edwards is kind of interesting guy...still trying to sort out if he's a physical freak who out-athleted on the CFB level or a week 8 NFL starter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxweBPnqCm4

[Smidgeon]

I can't tell by your description of the above video if you watched it or not, because it showed a lack of a route tree run by Adams. He ran comebacks, goes, bubbles, and some slants. That's pretty simplified.

I can't speak to the route tree, I'm not nuanced enough to notice things like that. I was referring to what run pMc identified, a couple sudden sharp cuts that I don't usually notice in other videos. In most videos, you see WRs outrunning the defense or making tough catches. I don't notice many of them creating sudden separation. But like I said before, I've gotten used to it from Adams in the NFL, so I was probably noticing it in that clip because I see him do it now.

[run pMc]

I'm not sure what people see in Jordyn Brooks, ILB for Texas Tech
vs. Baylor https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXu-gViUyIw
vs. OU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QabOT3sQaq8

He's not fast, they either spy him or have him rush vs. cover, and he's not a TFL machine either. Maybe it's the defensive scheme, but I'm not seeing much to like over what GB had last year. He just didn't do much to stand out, and after a while I had to fight not to watch other players.
Am I missing something?

[Deputy Nutz]

I'm not sure what people see in Jordyn Brooks, ILB for Texas Tech
vs. Baylor https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXu-gViUyIw
vs. OU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QabOT3sQaq8

He's not fast, they either spy him or have him rush vs. cover, and he's not a TFL machine either. Maybe it's the defensive scheme, but I'm not seeing much to like over what GB had last year. He just didn't do much to stand out, and after a while I had to fight not to watch other players.
Am I missing something?

Not really

[Bretsky]

The clip showed him making sharp cuts on a couple of slants and on one play beat press coverage with some of his now trademark footwork...he was a little sloppy on some routes but you could see the potential. I'm not sure I'd put Cephus quite in his class, but I am warming up to him a little.
I just think the legal stuff and being down the road in Madison will make him less of a consideration for GB, or maybe that's just me expecting Gute to be like TT.

Bryan Edwards is kind of interesting guy...still trying to sort out if he's a physical freak who out-athleted on the CFB level or a week 8 NFL starter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxweBPnqCm4


I would agree that TT was borderline incompetent when doing his due diligence about which WI Badgers had the edge and which did not. If Gooter does the anti TT thing and does his due diligence I think he may be able to get a value in Cephus while others may shy away. Keep watching film of him and Badger games. If Coan was a better QB his stats would have blown up last year. I'm not sure if I'd put Cephus in Adams class either; but he's very very talented.

[run pMc]

That would be one of the last adjectives I would use to describe him.

Agree
vs. TX https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dGJqa7OSQw
vs. Baylor https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLd4H4glLec

He's certainly better than Jordyn Brooks. He's got sideline to sideline speed and based on how quickly he chased down these QBs I'd say he's quick enough to chase down Russell Wilson. He's easily faster than Blake Martinez. He has some warts -- he's just a tiny click slow to diagnose sometimes -- but he's a late R1/early R2 prospect unless he tears up the combine (which is possible -- I could see him running a 4.5 40 or better). I'm not sold on his coverage ability, but he certainly has the athletic traits where he could be taught some better technique to stick with TEs and RBs down the MOF.

[GB-Brandon]

I compared Cephus to Jones because of body type and ability to separate at last second and win contested 50/50 balls on the “Back Shoulder”. Cephus is more twitchy then Jones though and shows the ability to win contested catches over the middle. Cephus also played in a run heavy offense where he had to win on “Man Beater Routes”. Also remember that before the Big Ten Title game some Ohio State players said “Cephus was the best they faced all year” That’s pretty high praise coming from a team with no.1 rated corner and arguably the best defense in college football. This is why I posted “If you liked James Jones your gonna Love Quintez Cephus.”

I don’t like the comparison of Cephus to Adams. Adams is more shifty with “ankle breaker” moves and cuts. Cephus is extremely twitchy in short area spaces with elite quickness. “Some” (note how I say some) of Cephus’s body movements on tape look similar to Antonio Brown. it will be interesting to see his “3 cone” etc etc at combine.

Overall I believe Cephus is being overlooked because he played at Wisconsin and got caught up in some trouble that he was found “innocent” on. Wisconsin coaches say he is a high character type leader and meant a lot to the program.

Quintez Cephus is a 2nd round talent all day long that some team can get a steal on(hopefully the Packers) in 3rd to 5th round.

[GB-Brandon]

Go Sign Paul Richardson and Draft Cephus and this offense will be ready to roll!

https://youtu.be/SKZSUXVRpvg

[Joemailman]

Go Sign Paul Richardson and Draft Cephus and this offense will be ready to roll!

https://youtu.be/SKZSUXVRpvg

Just don't give him much guaranteed money. He's missed about half the games in his career due to injury.

[GB-Brandon]

I'm not sure what people see in Jordyn Brooks, ILB for Texas Tech
vs. Baylor https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXu-gViUyIw
vs. OU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QabOT3sQaq8

He's not fast, they either spy him or have him rush vs. cover, and he's not a TFL machine either. Maybe it's the defensive scheme, but I'm not seeing much to like over what GB had last year. He just didn't do much to stand out, and after a while I had to fight not to watch other players.
Am I missing something?

Yeah. He rated out as the 58th best player in the country. He was the 5th ranked ILB in the nation and no.1 rushing the passer. He is a “3 down LB”. (According to PFF). He is expected to test extremely well at the combine so there is a lot to work with. Some of his tape is really good and then there are a couple where you wonder but that’s the case with any ILB in this draft.

Now is he gonna come in as a rookie and play better then Martinez right away? I would say probably not but i am not sure any of the LB’s that will be available would. The Last thing we need to do is “reach” for a LB at pick 30.

This is why i am in the “Sign Littleton Camp”. Then you sign Paul Richardson and roll the dice he can stay healthy . Then we can really get some help in the draft with a “BIG NASTY” to put next to Kemny Clark. The one I like Raekwon Davis. He is EXCELLENT AGAINST THE RUN and can also provide a little pass rush. “Team Northwestern” has to be dispelled quickly.

[pbmax]

Not really

I just stopped watching the first video after he fell down in the backfield on a pass rush and did not get back up.

[pbmax]

Yeah. He rated out as the 58th best player in the country. He was the 5th ranked ILB in the nation and no.1 rushing the passer. He is a “3 down LB”. (According to PFF). He is expected to test extremely well at the combine so there is a lot to work with. Some of his tape is really good and then there are a couple where you wonder but that’s the case with any ILB in this draft.

Now is he gonna come in as a rookie and play better then Martinez right away? I would say probably not but i am not sure any of the LB’s that will be available would. The Last thing we need to do is “reach” for a LB at pick 30.

This is why i am in the “Sign Littleton Camp”. Then you sign Paul Richardson and roll the dice he can stay healthy . Then we can really get some help in the draft with a “BIG NASTY” to put next to Kemny Clark. The one I like Raekwon Davis. He is EXCELLENT AGAINST THE RUN and can also provide a little pass rush. “Team Northwestern” has to be dispelled quickly.

I can't speak to his potential development; I just don't know what is possible or what to look for.

But he can't be Martinez in Pettine's base D. He isn't very good moving to the LOS.

If he is your 2nd ILB and plays 3 downs because of pass coverage, then OK. He's not afraid to be in the middle and he will clog up lanes and hold onto a guy.

He'd be a good replacement for Raven Greene.

I am looking for his sideline speed and Oklahoma hasn't run wide much. But at 3:47 he makes a good play that isn't a tackle. He bounces off on potential block, engages another and shuts down a gap (no idea if its his gap). But the DB to his outside also plays it well AND he gets off his edge block to force the RB inside.

Its good team defense as OK has blockers wide and its a disaster if that back gets out. But TT has guys inside who can tackle and they do. But the best play on that run was by the DB.

Not sure its fair to judge him on the OK tape. I think he is just a spy for Jalen Hurts. Who, by the way, might be discount Russell Wilson.

[GB-Brandon]

:roll:
I can't speak to his potential development; I just don't know what is possible or what to look for.

But he can't be Martinez in Pettine's base D. He isn't very good moving to the LOS.

If he is your 2nd ILB and plays 3 downs because of pass coverage, then OK. He's not afraid to be in the middle and he will clog up lanes and hold onto a guy.

He'd be a good replacement for Raven Greene.

I am looking for his sideline speed and Oklahoma hasn't run wide much. But at 3:47 he makes a good play that isn't a tackle. He bounces off on potential block, engages another and shuts down a gap (no idea if its his gap). But the DB to his outside also plays it well AND he gets off his edge block to force the RB inside.

Its good team defense as OK has blockers wide and its a disaster if that back gets out. But TT has guys inside who can tackle and they do. But the best play on that run was by the DB.

Not sure its fair to judge him on the OK tape. I think he is just a spy for Jalen Hurts. Who, by the way, might be discount Russell Wilson.


That’s the PROBLEM. It’s becoming clear Pettine needs ELITE TALENT at almost every position to make his big exotic defense work. i don’t see a LB in the draft that can come in as a rookie and do what Pettine is asking the ILB to do. This is why I believe another top DT/DE is necessary to make things a tad easier and overcompensate for limited Lb play.

This whole thing is Starting too feel like Dom Capers all over again to a degree.

[run pMc]

Matt Waldman likes Colorado WR Laviska Shenault.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVC_qymJOyU

[pbmax]

:roll:


That’s the PROBLEM. It’s becoming clear Pettine needs ELITE TALENT at almost every position to make his big exotic defense work. i don’t see a LB in the draft that can come in as a rookie and do what Pettine is asking the ILB to do. This is why I believe another top DT/DE is necessary to make things a tad easier and overcompensate for limited Lb play.

This whole thing is Starting too feel like Dom Capers all over again to a degree.

Its a fair point and I do agree a better D line versus the run make the issues better. Though there is still a lack of speed at ILB even with a better D line.

But I am not sure he needs to be elite. Martinez was OK at ILB given his draft position and role in defense. But he cannot be the coverage LB.

The problem with Martinez is that he could be paid close to elite money for production, not domination. Packers can't afford that. But they need that skill set for at least one ILB.

Packers played OK run D when they focused the sub package on it. But there isn't speed in it and it can't cover the middle. They need a swiss army knife in addition to Martinez-like sturdiness. Ideally, as you say, you get one guy to do that but seems unlikely at 30. So you have to have subs with different skills.

The sturdy guy might be something you could reasonably get in FA for a good price.

[Joemailman]

Matt Waldman likes Colorado WR Laviska Shenault.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVC_qymJOyU

I'd say about 90% of the mocks I've seen have him being drafted before 30. But if available he'd be a strong possibility for Packers pick. Had some injuries that affected him in 2019. Combine will be important for him.

[RashanGary]

Shanault intrigues me a lot. An ambitious, reliable young Josh gordon. Instant return game threat and a huge threat to run jet sweeps along with being a legit receiver threat.

[pbmax]

OK watching the Baylor video for Books again. I don't watch much Big 8 football, or whatever they are these days :lol:

But it appears that among the reads versus these spread offenses are first RB, then QB, for the ILBs. Which means if its a pass off a run fake, you get a five man pressure (assuming 4 DL). Which means he gets after the QB a fair amount and can catch them. Good speed.

But he is less adept at coverage, where he cannot cut quickly to change direction. He over runs stuff.

He is willing to stick his nose in the LOS. Not great at taking on blocks and defeating them but will shoulder them and hold them off to stay in a gap. You could do worse for a Nitro Backer.

But unless you feel his coverage will improve, its tough to envision success as the speed backer. He did need to drop a couple of times to cover in the middle but with the TV feed, its hard to judge how he did.

[GB-Brandon]

OK watching the Baylor video for Books again. I don't watch much Big 8 football, or whatever they are these days :lol:

But it appears that among the reads versus these spread offenses are first RB, then QB, for the ILBs. Which means if its a pass off a run fake, you get a five man pressure (assuming 4 DL). Which means he gets after the QB a fair amount and can catch them. Good speed.

But he is less adept at coverage, where he cannot cut quickly to change direction. He over runs stuff.

He is willing to stick his nose in the LOS. Not great at taking on blocks and defeating them but will shoulder them and hold them off to stay in a gap. You could do worse for a Nitro Backer.

But unless you feel his coverage will improve, its tough to envision success as the speed backer. He did need to drop a couple of times to cover in the middle but with the TV feed, its hard to judge how he did.

I saw him run down Kyler Murray last year. I feel good about him being able to get to the sideline as well. He is really good on back end pursuit too. At 245 he is big and can deliver a blow while holding his gap as you posted. He kinda reminds me of Denzel Perryman but faster.

I agree coverage would be something to develop without really knowing what his max ceiling will be. Assuming Martinez goes elsewhere Brooks would come in as our best LB day 1 which obviously isn’t saying much.

My dream scenario at ILB is signing Corey Littleton and drafting Brooks in 2nd. I’d like DL/DE in first(Raekwon Davis).

However, this is all contingent on getting receiver help in FA and drafting another in 3-4th. Cephus would be my guy in that range and I don’t even need to really see the combine.

[GB-Brandon]

I think the reality needs to set in that if we don’t go out and get Littleton we’re gonna be watching Oren Burks cover guys all year and that should warrant major cause for concern.

[wist43]

I'm the head cheerleader for getting rid of Martinez, and of course I've always been of the opinion that Burks is the worst football player on the planet.

Watched a little tape on Brooks - admittedly not much, but still I didn't like what I saw.

[GB-Brandon]

I'm the head cheerleader for getting rid of Martinez, and of course I've always been of the opinion that Burks is the worst football player on the planet.

Watched a little tape on Brooks - admittedly not much, but still I didn't like what I saw.

If you watch enough of it you will see his “Nation Leading 20 Tackles for loss”

[wist43]

If you watch enough of it you will see his “Nation Leading 20 Tackles for loss”

I'll watch more as we get to the draft, but what I did see wasn't very good. Too often he took bad angles... that was the big thing that jumped off the tape.

I'll watch more though.

[Teamcheez1]

I see a lot of discussion on our needs at both WR and ILB.

Despite all that, the best value at the end of the first round (unless we trade back), will probably lead us to taking an OL or DL player. That's where I'm putting my money on what our first pick will be.

[RashanGary]

I see a lot of discussion on our needs at both WR and ILB.

Despite all that, the best value at the end of the first round (unless we trade back), will probably lead us to taking an OL or DL player. That's where I'm putting my money on what our first pick will be.

WR, CB, OL or DL. But yeah, at 30 you take the most impactful player that slips through

[Joemailman]

Trade down is a strong possibility. especially if none of the top ILB's are available (or if Gutey doesn't have a 1st round grade on any of them). Trading down 10 spots could bring a late 3rd round/early 4th round pick.

[Bretsky]

Trade down is a strong possibility. especially if none of the top ILB's are available (or if Gutey doesn't have a 1st round grade on any of them). Trading down 10 spots could bring a late 3rd round/early 4th round pick.



Every year we say this; I am more guilty that others.

I constantly call for a trade back of a dozen spots. And then trading up a dozen spots or so to get your guy in either round 2 or round three with the goal be to get three studs in the draft.

I would agree completely with your sentiment. It doesn't seem to every happen though

[GB-Brandon]

I'll watch more as we get to the draft, but what I did see wasn't very good. Too often he took bad angles... that was the big thing that jumped off the tape.

I'll watch more though.

His Baylor tape was his worst while his Oklahoma State tape is definitely worth looking at. Regardless, we need someone that can “shoot some gaps” making plays behind the LOS and adding more overall speed to the middle of the defense. If we could put him in a situation where he has a clear read on RB or target he would quickly become a “Lambeau Legend” and fan fav. His “first step” is rather elite.

If he is used in a situation that requires him to shed blocks consistently and is asked to overcompensate for others missed assignments(Like the Northwestern Twins Breed) then we would become quickly disappointed.

Too me he projects to be the Packers best ILB since Desmond Bishop if we can get him.

[Gotarace]

I think the reality needs to set in that if we don’t go out and get Littleton we’re gonna be watching Oren Burks cover guys all year and that should warrant major cause for concern.
Would love to see a run made for Nick Kwiatkoski of the bears...the kid has a nose for the football and a motor that doesn't quit