The stats are clear, the extended passing play is dead in GB

[Patler]

For Rodgers, a different quarterback with a different skill group at a different stage in his career, the ideal balance between staying within the offense’s framework and extending plays has flipped. When the Packers extended plays in 2011, Rodgers’ passer rating increased 17.69 points. This season, it’s decreased 25.73.

Yet the Packers are extending plays more frequently than even during his best season.


This quote is from one of the best articles about the Packers that I have read in a long time:

https://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2020/01/03/inside-aaron-rodgers-declining-numbers-magic-missing-packers-extended-plays/2795997001/

Sorry, it is behind a subscription wall. Ryan Wood timed every Rodgers pass attempt in 2019 and 2011, catalogued them in half-second intervals, then grouped them as:

2 seconds or less (quick passes)
2.01 to 4.0 seconds (multiple progressions)
Over 4.0 seconds (extended plays)

He included an interactive graph to look at the primary passing statistical categories, comparing the two seasons statistics in each group, and each group as part of the overall passing game.

I don't agree with every conclusion he made, but the effort put into the data collection and presentation is impressive.

[run pMc]

I don't have access to the article, but I assume it doesn't go into why the plays were extended. I suppose you'd have to put Rodgers through a long film session and give him truth serum.

He has a quick mind and a good arm, so I'd prefer to see more quick throws and less extended plays, even if that means 7 yard dump offs to Lazard or Graham. Consistently hitting those should be enough to (mostly) avoid 3rd down and move down the field to scoring position.

[Joemailman]

It's also available to those who have JSO subscription.

The lack of production on extended plays is stunning. 2 TD's on 91 throws! His passer rating excluding extended plays is just under 100.

If the overall decline from 2011 to 2019 can be attributed primarily to declining skills by Rodgers, it would seem the decline would continue. If, on the other hand, the decline is due to less talent at the WR position, perhaps we can expect some improvement. Lazard is getting more established, and there should be an opportunity for the Packers to draft a really good WR for the 1st time since they drafted Adams. And St. Brown will be back. He may well have ended up as the #2 WR this year if he had been healthy.

In the meantime, is there a way to get Rodgers to reduce the number of extended plays, which are so unproductive?

[Anti-Polar Bear]

2011: Jennings, Driver, Jones, Nelson, Cobb, J-Mike

2019: Adams, Lazard, Sloth, MVS, Kum, (past-his-prime) Graham

Scrambling ain't dead. Most of the rock-catchers suck.

[pbmax]

2011: Jennings, Driver, Jones, Nelson, Cobb, J-Mike

2019: Adams, Lazard, Sloth, MVS, Kum, (past-his-prime) Graham

Scrambling ain't dead. Most of the rock-catchers suck.

I agree this is most of the issue. However, given that the extended offense is not based on The Flowers offense and more practice time is devoted to the running game, I wonder if this offense simply exists in Rodgers and Adams head.

[RashanGary]

Different offense. Rodgers has evolved into a better field general and less of a gun slinger

I like this offense

[Anti-Polar Bear]

I agree this is most of the issue. However, given that the extended offense is not based on The Flowers offense and more practice time is devoted to the running game, I wonder if this offense simply exists in Rodgers and Adams head.

Packers are still running alotta the stuff McCarthy ran. Rodgers is still holding onto the rock longer than it takes Bob Dole to play a round of golf. Problems are, MVS and Kum don't know how to get open during scramble drill. Sloth CAN'T get open during the drill; just ain't the kung-fu gangsta Jones was. Adams just ain't as quick as Jennings, Cobb and Driver; quickness is important in finding open space. Lazard is not as smart, football-wise, as Nelson, even though the Lizard is half white. J-Mike was a match up nightmare, which Graham no longer is.

Seattle also incorporate the scramble drill into their offense. Metcalf is a rookie, yet he has no problem connecting with Wilson. Metcalf has speed and smarts: perfect for scrambling. Gee, who took a fucking center over Metcalf?

[beveaux1]

This quote is from one of the best articles about the Packers that I have read in a long time:

https://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2020/01/03/inside-aaron-rodgers-declining-numbers-magic-missing-packers-extended-plays/2795997001/

Sorry, it is behind a subscription wall. Ryan Wood timed every Rodgers pass attempt in 2019 and 2011, catalogued them in half-second intervals, then grouped them as:

2 seconds or less (quick passes)
2.01 to 4.0 seconds (multiple progressions)
Over 4.0 seconds (extended plays)

He included an interactive graph to look at the primary passing statistical categories, comparing the two seasons statistics in each group, and each group as part of the overall passing game.

I don't agree with every conclusion he made, but the effort put into the data collection and presentation is impressive.

It was a well-researched article. The numbers show what many on this board have seen for the past few years, a tremendous drop-off in the skill that made Rodgers the best QB in the league over an eight year period.

Rodgers believes that the main reason for the massive decline is the WR corps not knowing how to extend their routes, although he does say that he is not physically the same QB as his 28 year old self.
It could also be the change from McCarthy's offense to MLF's offense, but the decline started a few years ago, which appears to somewhat nullify that theory.

One thing it does show. If Rodgers were able to reduce the number of pass plays taking over 4 sec (extended plays), his overall passer rating would rise significantly.

Another thing the article leaves out, does Rodgers extend plays significantly more than other teams? If this is the case, a better WR corps could reduce those attempts due to their ability to get open earlier.

[pbmax]

I haven’t read the article yet, but my sense from watching is that the >4 second offense has been declining as this year has gone along.

But the Rodgers offense, adjustments to routes based on coverages that aren’t in the playbook, is something he is still looking for. He mentioned it two weeks ago about guys running the correct route right into coverage.

[Zool]

If the WRs can’t run the offense, who’s fault is it that it keeps happening? Rodgers should just throw quick and short if that’s what the WRs are good at. Maybe the WRs will just magically get better at something if they keep trying.

[pbmax]

Quick and short only work for so long before the D adjusts, just as they did with Jones as a receiver.

If you are the Chiefs, you overcome this with speed. Not even Adams has that kind of speed.

So far, the big receiver offense has been a mess.

[beveaux1]

Quick and short only work for so long before the D adjusts, just as they did with Jones as a receiver.

If you are the Chiefs, you overcome this with speed. Not even Adams has that kind of speed.

So far, the big receiver offense has been a mess.

The big receiver offense could work, but there still has to be someone besides Adams with the quickness to get in and out of breaks.
Big, long-striding receivers can't get open quickly. MVS, Allison, Kumerow, and Lazard don't have any suddenness. I still wonder why Grant isn't active.

[Zool]

Quick and short only work for so long before the D adjusts, just as they did with Jones as a receiver.

If you are the Chiefs, you overcome this with speed. Not even Adams has that kind of speed.

So far, the big receiver offense has been a mess.

So you blame Glutes.

[pbmax]

So you blame Glutes.

Maybe. Probably. A mismatch between coordinator and GM maybe? Similar to Ted and Capers?

Still don’t know who’s bright idea the large slot receiver was.

However, Pettine had a year to work out what he needed on D and got it.

So we will see.

[Zool]

Maybe. Probably. A mismatch between coordinator and GM maybe? Similar to Ted and Capers?

Still don’t know who’s bright idea the large slot receiver was.

However, Pettine had a year to work out what he needed on D and got it.

So we will see.

I blame either Rodgers, M4, or a combo. Whomever is calling all 7, 8, or 9 on the route tree for all receivers on a given play. So many times an underneath route would be open if they would just call it.

[pbmax]

I blame either Rodgers, M4, or a combo. Whomever is calling all 7, 8, or 9 on the route tree for all receivers on a given play. So many times an underneath route would be open if they would just call it.

I think that has changed over the course of the year. Rodgers almost sounds as if he wants to stop those routes. LaFleur talked about the Lions game like deep was part of the plan.

[texaspackerbacker]

blame? sheeeeesh, we are 13-3 for crying out loud.

[call_me_ishmael]

Different offense. Rodgers has evolved into a better field general and less of a gun slinger

I like this offense

But the numbers suggest he is running the offense *less* than in years past. Too many non-effective extended plays.

[call_me_ishmael]

Still don’t know who’s bright idea the large slot receiver was.

Heh, I've been wondering this for a couple years now. What's with the infatuation with big 6'3"+ receivers? I, personally, prefer smaller, quicker guys. Why? I dunno, just do. I hope we can add a few wideouts that can win on skill and technique of excellent route running vs physical size/gifts.

[Joemailman]

Heh, I've been wondering this for a couple years now. What's with the infatuation with big 6'3"+ receivers? I, personally, prefer smaller, quicker guys. Why? I dunno, just do. I hope we can add a few wideouts that can win on skill and technique of excellent route running vs physical size/gifts.

I think you'll see this. A first year coach has to pretty much coach the guys he's got. I think you'll see Gutey draft a couple quicker guys. It's why I've been pushing Jalen Reagor of TCU.

https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/crabbs--2020-nfl-mock-draft-4.0




30.

Packers
Jalen Reagor
WR, TCU
The Green Bay Packers have plenty of size at wide receiver and offer some notable speed as well. But what about short-area quickness and run after catch skills? Jalen Reagor offers a different dynamic to the Packers' offense and will help further stress opposing defenses in trying to contain Matt LeFleur's passing attack in the NFC North.

[texaspackerbacker]

As somebody said, 50/50 or whatever between LaFleur's offense and McCarthy's - actually more accurately, Aaron Rodgers'. I like the fact that LaFleur has subordinated his ego that 50% or so to doing what Aaron Rodgers does best.

The title of this thread is bogus. The only reason we haven't seen more extended plays and deep passes is that this group of receivers isn't suited for that speed-wise. That is not a knock on Lazard or Kumerow. I think they would be much more effective if we had a speed burner spreading out the defense more. Adams too. I don't know of this Reager guy, but if he's fast and can catch, I like the idea.

[pbmax]

I think you'll see this. A first year coach has to pretty much coach the guys he's got. I think you'll see Gutey draft a couple quicker guys. It's why I've been pushing Jalen Reagor of TCU.

https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/crabbs--2020-nfl-mock-draft-4.0

I hope your second career as his agent goes well Mailman!

[pbmax]

As somebody said, 50/50 or whatever between LaFleur's offense and McCarthy's - actually more accurately, Aaron Rodgers'. I like the fact that LaFleur has subordinated his ego that 50% or so to doing what Aaron Rodgers does best.

The title of this thread is bogus. The only reason we haven't seen more extended plays and deep passes is that this group of receivers isn't suited for that speed-wise. That is not a knock on Lazard or Kumerow. I think they would be much more effective if we had a speed burner spreading out the defense more. Adams too. I don't know of this Reager guy, but if he's fast and can catch, I like the idea.

tex, he had at least 3 deep guys against the Lions with a step on the defender. He completed none of them. All were overthrows.

Used to be a huge part of the offense but its been gone for a while. Lazard had a big sideline catch a few games ago, MVS had a huge one months ago, but that has been about it.

I do believe that the receivers are part of the problem, but those throws are on Rodgers.

[Zool]

He had a 4th with a step in Jesus, but he underthrew that one. His deep touch is missing.

[texaspackerbacker]

tex, he had at least 3 deep guys against the Lions with a step on the defender. He completed none of them. All were overthrows.

Used to be a huge part of the offense but its been gone for a while. Lazard had a big sideline catch a few games ago, MVS had a huge one months ago, but that has been about it.

I do believe that the receivers are part of the problem, but those throws are on Rodgers.

What I saw - with one or two exceptions maybe - was receivers just barely open, and Rodgers erring on the side of caution, throwing it where the defender had no chan ce even though the Packer had very little chance. And I wouldn't want it any other way.

Also, "dead" means never coming back in my book. Get a decent speed burner receiver, and I'm pretty sure we'll see some bombs again.

All that being said, yes, even I see Rodgers being slightly less - maybe only about 98.5% of what he has been most of his career. I'll take 98.5% of him over 100% of anybody else who has ever played.

[Bretsky]

no surprise with this but it's nice to see some facts to back it up.

a combo of sub part talent at WR and TE combined with Rodgers not consistently missing the deep ball throw has been apparent all year

[smuggler]

I think that has changed over the course of the year. Rodgers almost sounds as if he wants to stop those routes. LaFleur talked about the Lions game like deep was part of the plan.

BINGO. This is what I see. Rodgers and the offense are testing the intermediate and deep passing game when the short passing game is working and it is killing drives because we do not have the horses for it, at least not in the grand design sort of way. The game against the Lions was just as much Aaron having a shitty game, but like an ace without his best stuff Rodgers and the offense made a few adjustments to make the dream come true.

If Rodgers gets that off against a playoff caliber team, we are done. Flat out.

[Fritz]

He had a 4th with a step in Jesus, but he underthrew that one. His deep touch is missing.

I have to laugh at Rodgers talking about receivers' timing of long routes being "off." At least three times he had guys open deep and overthrew, plain and simple. Then Kumerow wide open in the fourth and Rodgers badly underthrew him.

Yes, receiving corps is limited, but Rodgers doesn't take responsibility for his part in it.

[Smidgeon]

I have to laugh at Rodgers talking about receivers' timing of long routes being "off." At least three times he had guys open deep and overthrew, plain and simple. Then Kumerow wide open in the fourth and Rodgers badly underthrew him.

Yes, receiving corps is limited, but Rodgers doesn't take responsibility for his part in it.

He did in the last game.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

I have to laugh at Rodgers talking about receivers' timing of long routes being "off." At least three times he had guys open deep and overthrew, plain and simple. Then Kumerow wide open in the fourth and Rodgers badly underthrew him.

Yes, receiving corps is limited, but Rodgers doesn't take responsibility for his part in it.

If the wankers were faster, they woulda caught those overthrown bombs.

Btw: PackersNews has a recent article on Lazard. Confirmed Lizard being half-Aryan, not that there’s anything wrong wit dat. We’re all Homo Sapiens, yo. PM me if anyone wants to read said article or the “Extended Play is Dead” one. I’m keeping my subscription til the Packers’ season ends - hopefully not til sometime in February. :)

[Fritz]

He did in the last game.

I did not know that. Good. All I read was that he'd said their timing had to be better, which suggests that it wasn't just Rodgers missing throws.

As for tank's dumb comment (if the receivers were faster), well, that's just a dumb comment.

[pbmax]

If the wankers were faster, they woulda caught those overthrown bombs.

Btw: PackersNews has a recent article on Lazard. Confirmed Lizard being half-Aryan, not that there’s anything wrong wit dat. We’re all Homo Sapiens, yo. PM me if anyone wants to read said article or the “Extended Play is Dead” one. I’m keeping my subscription til the Packers’ season ends - hopefully not til sometime in February. :)

This post is GARBAGE.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

I did not know that. Good. All I read was that he'd said their timing had to be better, which suggests that it wasn't just Rodgers missing throws.

As for tank's dumb comment (if the receivers were faster), well, that's just a dumb comment.

Check out the beauteous bomb vs Chicago that MVS dropped. MVS is the only WR on the team with speed.

No fucking way Rodgers overthrows DK. And no fucking way DK ‘drops it like it’s hot’.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

This post is GARBAGE.

Garbage? I’m paying $8/month of my hard-earned frogskins for PackersNews, and am offering to PM articles to y’all. That ain’t garbage.

Fuck Gannett. After my old man threw me out onto the streets of Baltimore, and before I started flipping burgers for the minimum-wage (capitalists wouldn’t -and still won’t- hire me to cook their books) - I made ends meet by delivering papers for Gannett. Every. Fucking. Day. No weekends off. I earned less then than what I now earn, and I now earn the federal minimum-wage.

My offer still stands, but keep in mind that I will cancel the subscription the moment the Pack season ends.

[Cleft Crusty]

Check out the beauteous bomb vs Chicago that MVS dropped. MVS is the only WR on the team with speed.

No fucking way Rodgers overthrows DK. And no fucking way DK ‘drops it like it’s hot’.

Metcalf and Marquez Valdez-Scantling have 7% and 5.4% drop rates, respectively.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2019/receiving_advanced.htm

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Metcalf and Marquez Valdez-Scantling have 7% and 5.4% drop rates, respectively.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2019/receiving_advanced.htm

Fake news! Want me to believe your shit, please post as Rand.

Seriously, hard to drop the rock when your ass is stuck on the bench, as MVS has been since, what, 1982?

[Cleft Crusty]

Fake news!

You are free to ignore reality, and I am forthwith free to ignore your ignorant banterings.

[pbmax]

Garbage? I’m paying $8/month of my hard-earned frogskins for PackersNews, and am offering to PM articles to y’all. That ain’t garbage.

Fuck Gannett. After my old man threw me out onto the streets of Baltimore, and before I started flipping burgers for the minimum-wage (capitalists wouldn’t -and still won’t- hire me to cook their books) - I made ends meet by delivering papers for Gannett. Every. Fucking. Day. No weekends off. I earned less then than what I now earn, and I now earn the federal minimum-wage.

My offer still stands, but keep in mind that I will cancel the subscription the moment the Pack season ends.

Think about what Garbage means in a Packer Rats forum context.

[MadtownPacker]

Had to grant GC to him.

APB check your PM I sent.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

If anyone is interested:

http://packerrats.com/showthread.php?31317-Fuck-Capitalism!

[run pMc]

Thanks!

[Fosco33]

Davante Adams has seen double-digit targets in 8 of his last 9 games

[Cleft Crusty]

Probably the best solution to the EO problem would be to upgrade the WR corpse*.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ENcvrAJUwAAzdGE.jpg

*yes, that was deliberate

[Smidgeon]

Probably the best solution to the EO problem would be to upgrade the WR corpse*.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ENcvrAJUwAAzdGE.jpg

*yes, that was deliberate

That receiving core was talented.

[pbmax]

That picture is reverse height-ist if you are a receiver.

[gbgary]

As somebody said, 50/50 or whatever between LaFleur's offense and McCarthy's - actually more accurately, Aaron Rodgers'. I like the fact that LaFleur has subordinated his ego that 50% or so to doing what Aaron Rodgers does best.

The title of this thread is bogus. The only reason we haven't seen more extended plays and deep passes is that this group of receivers isn't suited for that speed-wise. That is not a knock on Lazard or Kumerow. I think they would be much more effective if we had a speed burner spreading out the defense more. Adams too. I don't know of this Reager guy, but if he's fast and can catch, I like the idea.

that's the thing. it's NOT what he does best anymore. being 13-3 is irrelevant in this matter. they're 13-3 due to jones, the defense, and incredibly unPackerlike injury luck, above anything rodgers has done.

[Fosco33]

That picture is reverse height-ist if you are a receiver.

Tons of experience but lacked height/speed.

[run pMc]

that's the thing. it's NOT what he does best anymore. being 13-3 is irrelevant in this matter. they're 13-3 due to jones, the defense, and incredibly unPackerlike injury luck, above anything rodgers has done.

Yep. Everytime a pass play goes off schedule or I see Rodgers take a deep drop, I just assume it will end up with an incomplete pass or a holding call. Used to be I expected a deep pass to Jordy or Hoodie Jones. You can put some of this on the WRs, but I'd also say at age 36 Rodgers' arm ain't what it was at 28.

FWIW, MVS ran a 4.37 at the combine, EQ ran a 4.45, Lazard ran a 4.55. For comparison, Jordy ran a 4.51. These guys aren't slow...it's not speed, it's the ability to run crisp routes and separate (and not drop the ball).

[Sparkey]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2870320-after-packers-bent-to-his-will-aaron-rodgers-now-needs-to-put-up-or-shut-up

"The pro-Rodgers argument: He has been the league's best pure passer and playmaker since 2011, and he has only looked ordinary for long stretches of the last three to five seasons because of stale game plans and weak supporting casts.

The anti-Rodgers argument: His accuracy and big-play capability decline incrementally each year, but he has tuned out coaches and ignored open receivers for so long and has such a huge salary and gift for passive-aggressive blame deflection that no one in Green Bay has the authority or courage to force him to adjust.

The truth about every quarterback always rests somewhere between the capes and the critics. But in this case, the anti-Rodgers camp makes a lot of valid points. "

[Vincenzo]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2870320-after-packers-bent-to-his-will-aaron-rodgers-now-needs-to-put-up-or-shut-up

"The pro-Rodgers argument: He has been the league's best pure passer and playmaker since 2011, and he has only looked ordinary for long stretches of the last three to five seasons because of stale game plans and weak supporting casts.

The anti-Rodgers argument: His accuracy and big-play capability decline incrementally each year, but he has tuned out coaches and ignored open receivers for so long and has such a huge salary and gift for passive-aggressive blame deflection that no one in Green Bay has the authority or courage to force him to adjust.

The truth about every quarterback always rests somewhere between the capes and the critics. But in this case, the anti-Rodgers camp makes a lot of valid points. "
Bleacher report has some good stuff in it.
The thing that I’m finding most striking lately about Rodgers is the intangible non-stat information being released about his sensitivity and that grudge thing he has.
I gotta tell you that I work with one guy like that and you can’t say anything to him. Lots of bad personality traits: Arrogance off the chart, knows more than anyone, nose in the air as if he’s a genius and if you do say something to him he looks at you as if you have a disease. Meanwhile you’re over 25 years older than him.
I’m disappointed to read a lot of this.

[pbmax]

Yep. Everytime a pass play goes off schedule or I see Rodgers take a deep drop, I just assume it will end up with an incomplete pass or a holding call. Used to be I expected a deep pass to Jordy or Hoodie Jones. You can put some of this on the WRs, but I'd also say at age 36 Rodgers' arm ain't what it was at 28.

FWIW, MVS ran a 4.37 at the combine, EQ ran a 4.45, Lazard ran a 4.55. For comparison, Jordy ran a 4.51. These guys aren't slow...it's not speed, it's the ability to run crisp routes and separate (and not drop the ball).

The one trait Lazard has that Rodgers trusts (not the only one) is that he gets contested throws. MVS waits for the ball to fall into his hands. Also a problem with earth-bound Graham.

[texaspackerbacker]

Yep. Everytime a pass play goes off schedule or I see Rodgers take a deep drop, I just assume it will end up with an incomplete pass or a holding call. Used to be I expected a deep pass to Jordy or Hoodie Jones. You can put some of this on the WRs, but I'd also say at age 36 Rodgers' arm ain't what it was at 28.

FWIW, MVS ran a 4.37 at the combine, EQ ran a 4.45, Lazard ran a 4.55. For comparison, Jordy ran a 4.51. These guys aren't slow...it's not speed, it's the ability to run crisp routes and separate (and not drop the ball).

Doing the math, if you go 40 yards in a shade over 4 seconds, then .1 second = about 1 yard. That puts Lazard - who I love in general as a receiver - about 2 yards slower than a real speed burner receiver. That's the difference between covered and wide open. Sure, route running is important, and obviously you have to catch the ball, but speed really does make a helluva lot of difference.

FWIW, I am annoyed every time Rodgers takes that lame little short drop back. Ideally, he is able to take a deep drop and not be almost immediately running for his life because of the pass rush. And if the rush is there - which is most of the time - Rodgers is fully capable of (as whiners in here tend to whine about) extending the play and hitting a receiver getting open late.

Rodgers' arm ain't at 36 what it was at 28? I haven't really seen evidence of that. If there's any drop off, it ain't much.

[pbmax]

Rodgers' arm ain't at 36 what it was at 28? I haven't really seen evidence of that. If there's any drop off, it ain't much.

Its not arm strength. Its timing and touch. He used to share a brain with Jennings, Jones and Jordy. Doesn't happen with anyone beside Davante now.

[texaspackerbacker]

Its not arm strength. Its timing and touch. He used to share a brain with Jennings, Jones and Jordy. Doesn't happen with anyone beside Davante now.

No disagreement at all with that, but it's approaching that with Lazard - give it time, especially considering they are winning 13 out of 16 games as is. Kumerow also has shown the early stages of that; MVS has not, but there's still hope, and if it ever clicks with him, the ceiling is higher.

I doubt you are blaming Rodgers for any perceived badness here, pbmax, but some whiners and Rodgers detractors in here probably are.

[pbmax]

No disagreement at all with that, but it's approaching that with Lazard - give it time, especially considering they are winning 13 out of 16 games as is. Kumerow also has shown the early stages of that; MVS has not, but there's still hope, and if it ever clicks with him, the ceiling is higher.

I doubt you are blaming Rodgers for any perceived badness here, pbmax, but some whiners and Rodgers detractors in here probably are.

Its Lazard and Adams who keep me from proclaiming Rodgers has to give up his offense.

Adams is good, but not the most physically gifted WR out there. Lazard is even more average in physical traits. If he can make it work with those guys, then a functional WR corp for him exists.

I think he could help himself by throwing shorter at times to keep drives rolling. But their average distance on drives has been good this year, with a big assist from the run game. 12th in yards and 8th in points per drive according to FO.

[texaspackerbacker]

No disagreement here either with the first two paragraphs. Ideally, Adams would be our second best WR and Lazard the third. I'd settle, though, for Adams being the top dog and somebody like Will Fuller of Houston drafted or acquired - a speed demon to stretch the field and spread things out for everybody else.

As for your third paragraph, I would suggest that Rodgers already does that as needed most of the time. If nothing is open - and I mean wide open by Rodgers' standard, then he sometimes takes a shot deep - either hit it or have a harmless incompletion. The bottom line/most important thing - whether some whiners want to believe it or not - is not throwing interceptions.

[pbmax]

No disagreement here either with the first two paragraphs. Ideally, Adams would be our second best WR and Lazard the third. I'd settle, though, for Adams being the top dog and somebody like Will Fuller of Houston drafted or acquired - a speed demon to stretch the field and spread things out for everybody else.

As for your third paragraph, I would suggest that Rodgers already does that as needed most of the time. If nothing is open - and I mean wide open by Rodgers' standard, then he sometimes takes a shot deep - either hit it or have a harmless incompletion. The bottom line/most important thing - whether some whiners want to believe it or not - is not throwing interceptions.

His deep touch having left really hurts the extended offense.

His lack of trust in WR making good (but not playbook) adjustments hurts the Rodgers-tweaked offense.

So when he improvises with those two plans, the results have been very poor. If they got another WR he WANTED to throw the ball to or if the deep touch returned, then we wouldn't be wondering about the Flower offense.

I thought Cleft Crusty was onto something when he suggested part of the Rodgers-tweaked offense was to create interception free space. But that doesn't explain the inaccurate shorter throws. But it might be part of the medium to long throw inaccuracy.

[Deputy Nutz]

Again, the comparison to Favre. Favre had 100% complete belief in his skills and talent and was boneheaded enough to rely on his ungodly arm. He believed there wasn't a window small enough where he couldn't fit a pass through it. Sure he was wrong a bunch of times, costly times, but then there were times where he wouldn't miss and he would light the field on fire with his timing passes and heat seeking missiles and all was right with the world.

Now the comparison, or contrast. For all of his arrogance, I don't think Rodgers has ever played with the same confidence as Favre, or looking at it in a more positive perspective Rodgers plays a smarter game than Favre and that is where his arrogance truly comes from. Either way the ability to throw on time and accurate into tight windows is what makes QBs elite. Rodgers refuses to play that game unless he "trusts" his receivers. Favre didn't care who he was throwing to, he would chuck it up just the same if it was Donald Driver or Taco Wallace. If you refuse to throw on time, then you better extend the play with success. Both Favre and Rodgers succeeded in extending plays in much different ways, Favre was the master of taking a broken play the distance with his stumbling bumbling under hand passes as he was falling into a snow drift, while Rodgers will immediately check off his first read and look down field as his receivers worked to get open. Teams dropped so many guys into coverage against Rodgers that running opportunities were constantly open for him to pressure the defense with his feet.

In the pocket is another comparison, Favre was country strong in the pocket and along with a sixth sense and playground mentality he was able to shrug off defenders and scramble away from pressure. A big gripe about Rodgers is that he holds on to the ball too long and is content to take a sack than throwing risky passes, and that he isn't as strong in the pocket as Favre. l do think Aaron takes too many sacks, but then Favre threw too many interceptions. They both have had their moments at avoiding pressure and making extended plays into their late 30's but that is part of the game that will evaporate the quickest for aging QBs. It happened to Favre, and it is happening to Rodgers. I don't want to fail to mention Rodgers injury history, both times he broke his collarbone he was extending plays outside the pocket. He might feel more protected staying between the tackles.

Favre was the master of the double edged sword. When his talent was properly managed there wasn't a better QB on this planet, ever. When he went unchecked chaos ensued. Rodgers has always preferred to play the game in a much different way, more measured and very much aware of consequences of his actions.

[RashanGary]

Favre liked being a hero. Rodgers is playing a team game right now. Jones, the OL and all 11 blockers feel empowered and ready to rip. 11 fired up is better than Favre.

[Deputy Nutz]

That makes zero fucking sense.

[RashanGary]

That makes zero fucking sense.

How does 11 guys playing together vs one guy going crazy and trying to be the hero not make sense

[RashanGary]

The story about the Seattle defense getting fed up with Rus is similar

[3irty1]

I think Favre knew most of the time what he was going to do before the snap and was just really good at executing it. No reads or progression much of the time, instead committing ahead of time and putting on the whole performance to make sure his guy gets kinda open by the time the ball is there. Move my eyes over here, then over here, pump fake over here, then LASERBEAM. Compared to AR he had little consideration for what the defense is doing because it didn't matter for his style of play.

[Deputy Nutz]

Favre liked being a hero. Rodgers is playing a team game right now. Jones, the OL and all 11 blockers feel empowered and ready to rip. 11 fired up is better than Favre.

11 blockers? And you ask me how it makes zero sense?


Whether or not Favre liked playing the hero or not is irrelevant. Rodgers doesn't like to be the hero? Come on, I am petty but at least I try to use some validity in making my points.

If Rodgers was truly playing a team game right now would there be a half dozen threads about his average play right now? He is playing average so his team does better? That makes zero sense.


3irty1
I think Favre knew most of the time what he was going to do before the snap and was just really good at executing it. No reads or progression much of the time, instead committing ahead of time and putting on the whole performance to make sure his guy gets kinda open by the time the ball is there. Move my eyes over here, then over here, pump fake over here, then LASERBEAM. Compared to AR he had little consideration for what the defense is doing because it didn't matter for his style of play.

I think he knew how to read a defense pre snap, something that he painstakingly learned under Holmgren. I disagree somewhat with your broad brush strokes here, as Favre completed a lot of passes with dump off to backs and tight ends. I think Favre enjoyed the image of a country bumpkin when it came to his knowledge of the game and would rather let defenses think he had no idea what they were doing.

[pbmax]

I think Favre knew most of the time what he was going to do before the snap and was just really good at executing it. No reads or progression much of the time, instead committing ahead of time and putting on the whole performance to make sure his guy gets kinda open by the time the ball is there. Move my eyes over here, then over here, pump fake over here, then LASERBEAM. Compared to AR he had little consideration for what the defense is doing because it didn't matter for his style of play.

This was a feature especially when he got older and was eager to avoid more hits. That ill fated pass to Driver near the end of the Giants playoff game is a perfect example. He could still be a stubborn mule when motivated as seen in the beating he took in New Orleans in that playoff game in 2009 (and I am not sure he was for all of 2007).

Rodgers is waiting for the offense of his youth to return as well. But rather than fire early hoping for the same read from the WR, he waits and waits. Or he escapes and throws a late checkdown, deep or away.

Its like a live action study of people being stubborn because everyone around them is younger.

I see this at work too. People who think they have all the answers because it was figured out 5 years ago, but no one is listening to them. Gets ugly sometimes.

[Zool]

11 blockers? And you ask me how it makes zero sense?


Whether or not Favre liked playing the hero or not is irrelevant. Rodgers doesn't like to be the hero? Come on, I am petty but at least I try to use some validity in making my points.

If Rodgers was truly playing a team game right now would there be a half dozen threads about his average play right now? He is playing average so his team does better? That makes zero sense.



I think he knew how to read a defense pre snap, something that he painstakingly learned under Holmgren. I disagree somewhat with your broad brush strokes here, as Favre completed a lot of passes with dump off to backs and tight ends. I think Favre enjoyed the image of a country bumpkin when it came to his knowledge of the game and would rather let defenses think he had no idea what they were doing.

You take the RB and the QB out of the play, and you have 11 left. 5 lineman, 2 TE and 4 WR. The math is easy. It's those 7 WR formations that must be a bitch to defend.

[Bretsky]

So I'm listing to ESPN 1070 and they are interesting one of the analytical guys at Pro Football Focus. I could not stand the guy but anyways here is what he said.

Russ Wilson was the best deep ball thrower in the NFL. AROD was in the middle of the Pack. He was comparing the QB's as well and considered AROD mid tier and went as far as noting (THIS WAS INSANE) that he rates Kirk Cousins higher than Rodgers

He doesn't think Wilson and Rodgers are close

[pbmax]

So I'm listing to ESPN 1070 and they are interesting one of the analytical guys at Pro Football Focus. I could not stand the guy but anyways here is what he said.

Russ Wilson was the best deep ball thrower in the NFL. AROD was in the middle of the Pack. He was comparing the QB's as well and considered AROD mid tier and went as far as noting (THIS WAS INSANE) that he rates Kirk Cousins higher than Rodgers

He doesn't think Wilson and Rodgers are close

Wait. I am getting serious deja vu.

Did we have this same discussion about Rodgers and another QB who was supposed to have passed him just a few years ago? And for a playoff matchup?

Matt Ryan? Russell Wilson? I swear you made the same post, possibly listening to Sirius NFL or similar.

[Packers4Glory]

Just proves what the eyes should be telling you. Especially the past 2 years. Really been noticeable post Jordy. it coincides with the crazy high throw aways. Is what Happened when you don’t draft any talent at WR & rely on inexperienced late or undrafted players who are not suited to be 4’s in most teams. Lazard has promise as a #3.

Allison is trash.
MVS is a project.

Both log extensive time & do next to nothing.

The TE position is trash. Not keeping Cook was a monumental mistake. Rodgers has missed his fair share of open guys but this corp is not good. Any number of WR in this draft could have helped big time but we drafted Gary...

[pbmax]

Just proves what the eyes should be telling you. Especially the past 2 years. Really been noticeable post Jordy. it coincides with the crazy high throw aways. Is what Happened when you don’t draft any talent at WR & rely on inexperienced late or undrafted players who are not suited to be 4’s in most teams. Lazard has promise.

Allison is trash.
MVS is a project.

Both log extensive time & do next to nothing.

The somewhat inevitable result of too many D focused drafts. Though as many have said, Rodgers could adjust a little more.

[Bretsky]

The story about the Seattle defense getting fed up with Rus is similar

I may have missed this; where was that story ?

[Bretsky]

The somewhat inevitable result of too many D focused drafts. Though as many have said, Rodgers could adjust a little more.


Hmm; if they stopped drafting busts on defense they might be able to go offense some year

Next year it's going to be offense by Need I think

[Bretsky]

Wait. I am getting serious deja vu.

Did we have this same discussion about Rodgers and another QB who was supposed to have passed him just a few years ago? And for a playoff matchup?

Matt Ryan? Russell Wilson? I swear you made the same post, possibly listening to Sirius NFL or similar.



I don't recall the Matt Ryan thing; I've never been a huge fan of Ryan because he's ruined my fantasy teams in NY a few years ago.

[Bretsky]

The one trait Lazard has that Rodgers trusts (not the only one) is that he gets contested throws. MVS waits for the ball to fall into his hands. Also a problem with earth-bound Graham.

Wanna watch a guy who goes up and gets the free ball at the top of his extension ? Ceephus is your guy

[Bretsky]

Different offense. Rodgers has evolved into a better field general and less of a gun slinger

I like this offense


I do too; but Rodgers is no longer our best offense player. I don't understand why he doesn't take the short routes more but I'm hopeful that he'll eventually start in this offense. One might argue a field general is kinda like a game manager. He'd be way better than that if his long ball percentage and accuracy was better. But we don't get the picks; and that is a huge plus

[mraynrand]

Allison is trash.
MVS is a project.

Both log extensive time & do next to nothing.
.

Pull the goalies! Go U71 with a FB and run the rock down their throats!

[pbmax]

I may have missed this; where was that story ?

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/09/07/seattle-seahawks-dismantling-rift-russell-wilson-pete-carroll

[pbmax]

So I'm listing to ESPN 1070 and they are interesting one of the analytical guys at Pro Football Focus. I could not stand the guy but anyways here is what he said.

Russ Wilson was the best deep ball thrower in the NFL. AROD was in the middle of the Pack. He was comparing the QB's as well and considered AROD mid tier and went as far as noting (THIS WAS INSANE) that he rates Kirk Cousins higher than Rodgers

He doesn't think Wilson and Rodgers are close



PASSING COMP ATT PCT YDS TD INT QBR
Rodgers 16 27 59.3 243 2 0 113.7

Wilson 21 31 67.7 277 1 0 106.5

[run pMc]

Wilson was pedestrian in 1st half, All-Pro 2nd half. I suspected they were going to get him more on the move in 2nd half, and they did. The DL got pressure on him but he was unreal last night escaping the pass rush and running for 1st downs.
He outplayed Rodgers IMO, but it was close -- Rodgers was clutch on 3rd downs last night and made some accurate throws and mostly good reads/decisions. Missed a few open guys as usual, but he did enough to win.

Wilson shined brighter because he had worse crap around him (3rd string OL, TE, etc.) and had to run for his life. I bet he's pretty sore today from the hits he took.

[pbmax]

His OL did not block like 3rd stringers. Brown stymied Dr. Zaius all night. Not saying they were old beaters (especially in run game) but Wilson had time.

Pettine did not blitz much as far as I could tell. Couple instances but mostly 4 man rush.

[pbmax]

however, OP is still correct. Extended offense wasn't much apparent last night, which is probably a good sign.