Pettine: Stays or Goes

[Smidgeon]

So, Rats, is Pettine the D-mastermind to lead the team going forward? Will M4 bring in his own guy? PB gave an over/under on the next head coach being better/worse than M3. If they bring in a new guy, what's the odds of someone better? I need a gut reaction here.

[red]

i just don't think i'm sold

the pass rush was way better, but was that just the smiths? (clay and perry did jack shit in this system last year)

coverage was better, but still seemed to be a cluster fuck at time. we have no clue how to play zone, and its been 10 or 11 years since we've been able to cover anyone over the middle

i could take him or leave him to be honest.

if the kid wants to bring in his own guy, let him

[pbmax]

Undecided. The unit was better, especially against the pass and with turnovers.

But it still gets shredded by big plays in run and pass.

Gut instinct says he needs more players, but most of the defense has turned over in the last three years.

[Cheesehead Craig]

I'm going with he should go. Frankly the unit should have been much better this season and out really wasn't. Once again our DC was behind the curve vs offenses. I don't need a guy who is going to be aggressive, just a guy who brings a solid scheme. I know it won't happen, but man I dislike the 3-4 and wish we would ditch it.

[woodbuck27]

He deserves another year.

[call_me_ishmael]

It wouldn't surprise me either way since he wasn't Matty's guy. Gun to my head, he's back. I think he probably deserves another crack at it, anyway.

[wist43]

Our ILB's are a disaster, and our down linemen outside of Clark are very pedestrian.

If we had top flight talent in the front seven, and they got run over like that, I'd say he goes, but I'd like to see if he can build on the progress made this year.

Hopefully Gute will continue to upgrade the front seven talent.

[RashanGary]

Our ILB's are a disaster, and our down linemen outside of Clark are very pedestrian.

If we had top flight talent in the front seven, and they got run over like that, I'd say he goes, but I'd like to see if he can build on the progress made this year.

Hopefully Gute will continue to upgrade the front seven talent.

Yep. Hard to find DL though. Wish we woulda drafted Jeffrey Simmons last year

[Radagast]

This thread sounds more like the post playoff loss blame game more than anything else. The real discussion should be about what does GB need to do to improve next season.

1st: The Packers need better WRs. Adams can't just be Rodgers A list WR. Allison, Lazard, Kumerow, and even Valdez Scantling are highly replaceable. The draft may offer a chance at a 1st round WR, but at probably pick #30, the Free Agent market could offer the best WR talent.

2nd: The Packers need an Offensive Tackle to replace Brian Bulaga. Veldheer will be 33 next season and could still play a few more years, and Light could remain a backup, but he's not a real starter. Leglue is young and already GB is his 3rd team. Gutekunst has showed himself a solid off season talent dealer, perhaps he will unload Rashan Gary for a better OT or a better WR.

3rd: GB does not have a JJ Watt or Joey Bosa or Jadeveon Clowney, but they did get Preston Smith and ZaDarius Smith. Martinez is still the #1 team tackeler, but I'd trade Goodson and/or Burks to get more help at Inside Linebacker.


HC LaFleur, OC Hackett, and DC Pettine have done well with the 2019 Packer personal. With a new offensive system, new HC, new (Packer) players on both offense and defense, all the coaches have surpassed my expectations for the 2019/2020 Season. GM Gutekunst has made mostly good player personnel decisions. IMO, Rashan Gary was a complete BUST. Perhaps he learned a lesson about hiring "project players".

[Freak Out]

The 49ers passed 8 fucking times the entire game. Pettine couldn't scheme to stop that? I know that the D still lacks talent but holy hell.

[th87]

Making a journeyman running back look like Jim Brown should be grounds for dismissal.

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

Yeah, knee jerk reaction after an ass kicking like that is to fire somebody, anybody! But me thinks our expectations were too high. The better question may be 'did the team improve this year', I would think everybody would agree yes. So we almost have to let it ride to see if the improvement continues. I am already looking forward to next season.

[Joemailman]

I've been in Pettine's corner, but what happened yesterday in the running game was shocking. I'd give him another year, but he may need to put more emphasis on stopping the run.

[mraynrand]

Yeah, knee jerk reaction after an ass kicking like that is to fire somebody, anybody!

I say we give sharpcheddar another chance.

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

I say we give sharpcheddar another chance.

I wouldn't go that far...

[Bossman641]

I could go either way but I think the bigger issues are Lowry and Lancaster.

[Joemailman]

I could go either way but I think the bigger issues are Lowry and Lancaster.

I agree. I like Lowry better as a rotational player rather than a starter. Lancaster is JAG at best. The apparent failure of Mt Adams hurt this team.

[Bossman641]

What this team desperately needs is to hit big on a late round dl or lb. Who's the last one who turned out, mike daniels? Failures of Burks and looming large.

[pbmax]

The 49ers passed 8 fucking times the entire game. Pettine couldn't scheme to stop that? I know that the D still lacks talent but holy hell.


Making a journeyman running back look like Jim Brown should be grounds for dismissal.

What they said.

Also what they asked.

[pbmax]

Yeah, knee jerk reaction after an ass kicking like that is to fire somebody, anybody! But me thinks our expectations were too high. The better question may be 'did the team improve this year', I would think everybody would agree yes. So we almost have to let it ride to see if the improvement continues. I am already looking forward to next season.

I don't think getting run over like that means expectations were too high.

That was unprepared. Had no answer. 49ers looked like Greg Roman's offense out there. I guarantee we hear this week about a lot of unscouted looks.

Packers prepared for the 49ers to run the same game as last time. 49ers prepared for that adjustment.

[pbmax]

I could go either way but I think the bigger issues are Lowry and Lancaster.

I agree, but the bigger issue is what the 49ers did to the edges.

[pbmax]

I agree. I like Lowry better as a rotational player rather than a starter. Lancaster is JAG at best. The apparent failure of Mt Adams hurt this team.

Yes, he or Keke. Lancaster stays just because he is the backup nose tackle.

[ThunderDan]

I need some time past the ass whooping to decompress before I start thinking about this. Hopefully, the Packers take a little bit of time also.

Need to access the increase in talent verse the improvement in the D. Was it because of the players or using the players inside a specific scheme?

[esoxx]

Wade Phillips

[Gotarace]

Still Shell Shocked...Do we have the Horses? Was it the Coaching Scheme? Was it the Failure to Execute? Looked like the Niners were running through Blocking Dummies...Tough to watch but I need more time to sort through the Carnage before asking for Pettine's Head.

[3irty1]

I don't think Pettine is some kind of stud coordinator who can build a quality defense exclusively out of role players, but for short term success I think he's the best option.

At this point I believe the best investment in the defense is an investment in the offense. Yes I think this the day after being humiliated by a 49ers using only a one-dimensional high school offense.

When the Packers are playing well its a team built to pass and stop the pass. Perhaps this is an outdated 2010's approach or perhaps this is still the way to go because ostensibly the major advantage of this team is Aaron Rodgers. Kickass rushing attacks were bound to come back into fashion as defenses have been trending smaller and faster but I do still think the strategy you want, which is also the strategy we have the best chance of employing, is still a team that can pass and stop the pass.

Running the ball will always be somewhat of an underdog strategy simply because it shortens the game so much by running down the clock. If you're the better team, you want a longer game to maximize your opportunities to realize your advantage. So if you can only be good at one thing, you want to throw it. If you can be good at two things, you want to stop others from throwing it for the same reason. It's inconceivable to me that the Packers of say 2011, could be boat raced by that 49ers team because you can't throw it 6 times in a half and expect to keep up in a shootout. That team's entire run-stopping defense between the 20's was basically its offense. Our team is still built to win shootouts, but it tends to forget its guns at home.

I'm not suggesting we need a historically good offense like 2011 every year, but we do need to be a credible threat to do the things we were doing in 2011. I don't know if Aaron Rodgers can still sling it like that but we won't know until he's got the types of receivers who can get behind a defense again. Also we're just so heavily invested in Rodgers that we pretty much have to go forward as if he's as likely as anyone to win the MVP next year.

[Fosco33]

Too bad Aranda took the Baylor job. I’d take a chance on young up and comer - Leonard even?

[pbmax]

Too bad Aranda took the Baylor job. I’d take a chance on young up and comer - Leonard even?

Same defense. Both from Rex Ryan Ravens.

[pbmax]

I don't think Pettine is some kind of stud coordinator who can build a quality defense exclusively out of role players, but for short term success I think he's the best option.

At this point I believe the best investment in the defense is an investment in the offense. Yes I think this the day after being humiliated by a 49ers using only a one-dimensional high school offense.

When the Packers are playing well its a team built to pass and stop the pass. Perhaps this is an outdated 2010's approach or perhaps this is still the way to go because ostensibly the major advantage of this team is Aaron Rodgers. Kickass rushing attacks were bound to come back into fashion as defenses have been trending smaller and faster but I do still think the strategy you want, which is also the strategy we have the best chance of employing, is still a team that can pass and stop the pass.

Running the ball will always be somewhat of an underdog strategy simply because it shortens the game so much by running down the clock. If you're the better team, you want a longer game to maximize your opportunities to realize your advantage. So if you can only be good at one thing, you want to throw it. If you can be good at two things, you want to stop others from throwing it for the same reason. It's inconceivable to me that the Packers of say 2011, could be boat raced by that 49ers team because you can't throw it 6 times in a half and expect to keep up in a shootout. That team's entire run-stopping defense between the 20's was basically its offense. Our team is still built to win shootouts, but it tends to forget its guns at home.

I'm not suggesting we need a historically good offense like 2011 every year, but we do need to be a credible threat to do the things we were doing in 2011. I don't know if Aaron Rodgers can still sling it like that but we won't know until he's got the types of receivers who can get behind a defense again. Also we're just so heavily invested in Rodgers that we pretty much have to go forward as if he's as likely as anyone to win the MVP next year.

Its a fair set of points, but you have to do something to arm Pettine or his replacement against this 49er team and its eventual copycats.

My disappointment isn't scheme. It's prep. They looked like a team than had never seen an option before.

You hire Barry Alvarez to yell at them about staying home and doing your job/assignment and show some Nebraska/Osbourne tape. Then spend some money on an ILB who can make them pay for running that.

Probably need a better DT too.

[call_me_ishmael]

I could go either way but I think the bigger issues are Lowry and Lancaster.

Yep. Exactly.

[smuggler]

Their biggest advantage was personnel, not scheme. Pettine might not be the guy, but he's not the first to be replaced, either.

[3irty1]

Its a fair set of points, but you have to do something to arm Pettine or his replacement against this 49er team and its eventual copycats.

My disappointment isn't scheme. It's prep. They looked like a team than had never seen an option before.

You hire Barry Alvarez to yell at them about staying home and doing your job/assignment and show some Nebraska/Osbourne tape. Then spend some money on an ILB who can make them pay for running that.

Probably need a better DT too.

You can never be too deep at DT or ILB, and those are certainly needs. In general any NFL team that knows a run is coming every play can't also be giving up 8 ypc through 6 foot holes. That first half last night looked about how I always imagined it would look if the worst NFL team played against the best college team any given year.

I think deficiencies of prep, scheme, talent all had to stack together to produce that horror show. You're right though that prep/gameplan is particularly egregious if only because this wasn't the first time this team was savagely beaten by those 9ers.

[texaspackerbacker]

This is the wrong time to ask hahahahaha. A gut reaction was asked for, though. Our D absolutely stunk yesterday, and it sure looked like a lot of it had to do with scheme. I voted to give him one more year, but it wouldn't bother me a bit to see him gone sooner.

As some have said, though, a large part of the problem is shoddy personnel. One D Lineman, Clark, is NFL quality. The other 2 or 3 just plain got man handled yesterday, and really it's been like that most of the time (Keke, though, came in late and made one decent play). Our DBs pretty much all failed miserably in their other job - backing up the front 6 or 7 stopping the run. Beyond that, though, they generally seemed to regress this season in pass coverage anytime we didn't get a big pass rush. And Martinez, I have been one of his biggest defenders all season, but yesterday (I watched a lot of those bad plays immediately on DVR), he just plain took himself out of the play - just no gap discipline at all, heading off in a completely different direction from where the play was. Was that on him? Or was that scheme/coaching? Hard to say. And then there's the Smiths (I saw this painfully on DVR too); They just did nothing on the outside to force runs back inside - like they were hell bent on pass rush even though the Niners were running nearly all the time. I have to think that was somehow by design - and thus, on the D Coordinator, but if so, who the hell is supposed to cover outside of them?

You maybe could defend Pettine by saying he needed to compensate - the coverage guys couldn't cover good enough so heavy pass rush was needed. That was dead obvious on that 3rd and long run for the first Niner TD. All season, the Safetys had to lean outside to help out King for sure and increasingly, Alexander too, thus opening up the middle of the field. It almost seemed yesterday like they went overboard to stop that - passes in the middle, and that somehow opened up things for runs.

Whatever the hell was going on, the Niners did their homework and absolutely outsmarted Pettine. It seemed like the Denver game only more so - getting run on by fairly mediocre RBs. It's like Pettine schemed us to good D until that Denver game. Then for 6 or 8 games or whatever, teams learned how to beat what he was doing. Then, late in the season, he figured out something else, or maybe ran into some teams what failed to learn from what Denver did. Well, the Niners did. Is it Pettine's fault for not figuring out a fix to their fix? Or did he get away with mission impossible most of the season, only to get exposed in the end.

I think maybe big brother LaFleur let it slip to little brother LaFleur sometime before yesterday, "we're damn lucky teams haven't been running it on us".

[Freak Out]

Jim Brown had 120 something yards rushing BEFORE contact yesterday! Holy hell.

[Deputy Nutz]

I like the idea of Wade Phillips, the guy is awesome on twitter, but other than that? I was upset at the poor technique the Packers demonstrated the entire game. Z. Smith flying up field losing any edge integrity, Savage taking one poor angle after another, and on the third touchdown the angle Martinez took was phenomenally poor. Schematically I have no idea how the Packers continually got out manned at the point of attack over and over again.

I wish I could change my vote from keeping to undecided.

[pbmax]

I like the idea of Wade Phillips, the guy is awesome on twitter, but other than that? I was upset at the poor technique the Packers demonstrated the entire game. Z. Smith flying up field losing any edge integrity, Savage taking one poor angle after another, and on the third touchdown the angle Martinez took was phenomenally poor. Schematically I have no idea how the Packers continually got out manned at the point of attack over and over again.

I wish I could change my vote from keeping to undecided.

Here is a sample of how they got outmanned at the point of attack:

https://twitter.com/danorlovsky7/status/1189192536037974016

They ran a similar play on Za'Darius a lot.

[Deputy Nutz]

Here is a sample of how they got outmanned at the point of attack:

https://twitter.com/danorlovsky7/status/1189192536037974016

They ran a similar play on Za'Darius a lot.


https://twitter.com/i/status/1219056387843555329

This is the play where Martinez is one on one with the back and takes the worst angle ever. Also our edge (Frackrell) decides to spill the puller instead of boxing it. Not sure what the scheme calls for but it would be an easier play for Martinez if our end man on the LOS player would have boxed instead of spilled. Nobody attacked the Jet motion either. I coach outside linebackers and our rule for Jet is that we attack it like they have the ball. Our Outside linebackers are also box players never spill players. The Packers are also in a weird bear front with a single high safety in a trips closed formation. Looks really stupid in hindsight. The Packers have no secondary edge on the tight end side of the formation, and are still worried about getting beat in the passing game.

[Freak Out]

Brutal.

[mraynrand]

Who thinks Griffen will be cut by Minnesota for being totally destroyed in the run game by Kittle? Maybe the same guy who cuts Griffen can be hired to let Poutine go.

[Rastak]

Who thinks Griffen will be cut by Minnesota for being totally destroyed in the run game by Kittle? Maybe the same guy who cuts Griffen can be hired to let Poutine go.


It'll be for his cap number, he had a great year actually.


I thought you guys liked Pettine? Were super fired up when he was retained. Green Bay's defense was above average most of the year.

[mraynrand]

It'll be for his cap number, he had a great year actually.

you bet he did. Pettine had a good year too. And yet, both got owned by SF.

[yetisnowman]

I thought the plan was schematically sound. The problem is no one we rotate in on our defensive front makes consistent plays in the running game. No one sheds blocks or explodes to the ball. No great tacklers in space . They get moved wherever a good offensive line wants them to go. How many times did we have numbers where they ran and still couldn't make a play. Cause we got scrubs like Martinez, Lancaster, Lowry, Redmond, a 40yr old tramon and a rookie learning as he goes playing safety. What could Pettine have done? His 2 best defenders are neutralized when the other team can coast to touchdown drives without having to throw a single pass.

[Rastak]

you bet he did. Pettine had a good year too. And yet, both got owned by SF.


I generally don't make decisions like that based on 1 out of 18 games.

[mraynrand]

I generally don't make decisions like that based on 1 out of 18 games.

that's wise

[mraynrand]

I thought the plan was schematically sound. The problem is no one we rotate in on our defensive front makes consistent plays in the running game. No one sheds blocks or explodes to the ball. No great tacklers in space . They get moved wherever a good offensive line wants them to go. How many times did we have numbers where they ran and still couldn't make a play. Cause we got scrubs like Martinez, Lancaster, Lowry, Redmond, a 40yr old tramon and a rookie learning as he goes playing safety. What could Pettine have done? His 2 best defenders are neutralized when the other team can coast to touchdown drives without having to throw a single pass.

You should have seen what happened to Minnesota's #5 ranked defense. I heard they gave up a TD drive in a playoff game with no passes.

[pbmax]

I thought the plan was schematically sound. The problem is no one we rotate in on our defensive front makes consistent plays in the running game. No one sheds blocks or explodes to the ball. No great tacklers in space . They get moved wherever a good offensive line wants them to go. How many times did we have numbers where they ran and still couldn't make a play. Cause we got scrubs like Martinez, Lancaster, Lowry, Redmond, a 40yr old tramon and a rookie learning as he goes playing safety. What could Pettine have done? His 2 best defenders are neutralized when the other team can coast to touchdown drives without having to throw a single pass.

You see, what you are describing here as a problem of players were are rotating in (backups) is actually a problem with the entire middle of the starting defense save Clark and Preston.

With the exception of Clark and Preston Smith (and Lancaster), the starters have take off and penetrate. That is a fools game versus an option offense.

Lancaster and Lowry cannot beat a double team and neither can Adams or Keke yet.

Frankly, I am less worried about the middle of the field than I am about the edges. The big runs were mostly outside the tackle box.

[pbmax]

It'll be for his cap number, he had a great year actually.


I thought you guys liked Pettine? Were super fired up when he was retained. Green Bay's defense was above average most of the year.

It’s disappointment,

But it’s also an abject failure of preparing for this game. Twice.

[yetisnowman]

You see, what you are describing here as a problem of players were are rotating in (backups) is actually a problem with the entire middle of the starting defense save Clark and Preston.

With the exception of Clark and Preston Smith (and Lancaster), the starters have take off and penetrate. That is a fools game versus an option offense.

Lancaster and Lowry cannot beat a double team and neither can Adams or Keke yet.

Frankly, I am less worried about the middle of the field than I am about the edges. The big runs were mostly outside the tackle box.

I just mean anyone that plays those positions and is part of the group rotation. Not specifically the guys that don't start or get fewer snaps. Should have been more clear.

[QBME]

It gets down to drafts past.
I don't give a tiniest rat's ass if it was Tremoring Ted or Gute.
Latest failures? Montravious Adams. Rashan Gary.
Pettine gets to work with the pieces he's been given. He deservers to carry on.
If anybody thinks that Lowery and Lancaster are even close to the answer, well, I got some swampland you may be interested in.

We have a 2 year window.

[MadtownPacker]

Fuck that, goes!! The talent level wasn’t that bad. To get ripped that hard means the game plan did not work. The defense isn’t that weak to have gotten so badly outmatched. The whole game stunk of being outcoached on both sides IMO.

[mraynrand]

Fuck that, goes!! The talent level wasn’t that bad. To get ripped that hard means the game plan did not work. The defense isn’t that weak to have gotten so badly outmatched. The whole game stunk of being outcoached on both sides IMO.

Was MN's defense outcoached when they got steamrolled?

[texaspackerbacker]

Shitty personnel or shitty planning? Who says it ain't both.

We absolutely got outcoached on D and to a lesser extent on offense too - although there not as bad as the first time with the Niners. That that doesn't diminish the fact that our D Line other than Clark is horrible, our secondary gets beat in man coverage way too often (yeah, even Alexander), our wonderful OLBs don't play like OLBs at all - they play like DEs in the 4th Quarter with a 3 TD lead, and our main/most of the time only ILB is having to do the job of 2 ILBs. Despite all of that, Pettine pieced together a D that gave us 14 wins and just four losses, about half of those wins where the D gets most of the credit.

As for getting outcoached on offense, especially the first Niner game, maybe, but as I have said all along - and many have disagreed with, our O Line is mediocre at best. Several people went down the list of D positions before the game about how our D was as good as theirs - the Smiths as good or better than Bosa and the other guy, our Corners as good or better, etc. Well, what we had on D turned to shit, and what they had was solid gold. Why? Because their O Line was at least decent, and ours played like absolute shit. There is only so much you can compensate for with scheme.

[George Cumby]

IMO this is a Horses issue, not a Scheme issue.

SF was playing at a different speed yesterday. They're faster and more athletic.

We need better talent.

[pbmax]

It gets down to drafts past.
I don't give a tiniest rat's ass if it was Tremoring Ted or Gute.
Latest failures? Montravious Adams. Rashan Gary.
Pettine gets to work with the pieces he's been given. He deservers to carry on.
If anybody thinks that Lowery and Lancaster are even close to the answer, well, I got some swampland you may be interested in.

We have a 2 year window.

I’d have more faith in replacing Lowry or Lancaster if the inside runs did the most damage.

[pbmax]

IMO this is a Horses issue, not a Scheme issue.

SF was playing at a different speed yesterday. They're faster and more athletic.

We need better talent.

Speed is still an issue I agree.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Since the surplus value of Pettine’s defense is less than the exchange value of Pettine’s D, established economics favor Pettine getting terminated.

[th87]

What's the case for him staying?

His horses are still NFL players. It's not common to give up records (hence they're records), unless you have no clue what you're doing. Pettine clearly did not.

I wonder how smart he is - he strikes me as those old rah rah coaches who are becoming obsolete. Those who failed upward due to connections.

[run pMc]

He stays, although the defense will have to show better run defense. They did pretty well in most measures and kept the team in games when the offense was awful.

As for the SF game, they got outcoached by Shanahan and Selah (who should have gotten more HC consideration IMO).
For the GB defense it was a schematic issue — Blake Martinez said the Packers never figured out what the 49ers were doing — as well as an execution issue as the team failed to either maintain integrity in their gaps or tackle consistently.
There were more than a handful of plays where the DL or LB couldn't get off blocks or even realize where the play was going. Lots of OL blocking down with a kickout on the backside making for huge cutback lanes.

Also, Mostert looked like he was shot out of a cannon. That dude has serious acceleration. Plus he runs a 4.41 (Coleman and Breida are crazy fast too), so good luck catching him if he gets a running start.

Scheme, execution, talent... they got flat out beat. You can bet other teams will copycat this stuff, so Pettine better come up with answers (as well as answers to the inevitable counters to them).

[Zool]

It'll be for his cap number, he had a great year actually.


I thought you guys liked Pettine? Were super fired up when he was retained. Green Bay's defense was above average most of the year.

That wasn’t directly after a loss. Knee jerk reactions are always the best decisions.

Replacing him means losing continuity. Replacing for the sake of it is stupid. Next guy could be worse.

[Zool]

I’m with 31. If the O doesn’t shit the bed for the entire first half, maybe SF has to actually throw the ball.

[pbmax]

I’m with 31. If the O doesn’t shit the bed for the entire first half, maybe SF has to actually throw the ball.

Can't the defense try to be at least as good as Avis?

[pbmax]

Was MN's defense outcoached when they got steamrolled?

Yes.

[pbmax]

Watch this play. The WR, top of screen, is getting the ball on an end around that is blocked like a screen (eventually). Before that, 49ers sell an inside handoff to the left.

P Smith crashes down the line chasing the FB, taking himself COMPLETELY out of the play. You could make the case that he is trying to help versus the inside run. But what he does is completely abandon the outside before knowing where the ball is. No EDGE.

King backs off coverage almost like a zone and goes to play deep safety. Probably his responsibility since a safety will have to fill in on the left side of the D when that receiver gets there.

Play side CB gets blocked easily. Martinez and Goodson buy the inside fake and step up. Goodson looks like he has coverage on that back if he is a receiver. But Martinez is way up on the LOS too.

Savage is watching the TE who could release to D right after blocking.

There is just no one to cover the end around guy. When WR gets the ball on a toss, there are three Packers in between the hashes. One oustide the hashes on the play side. Four Packers to beat with 5-6 blockers depending on where you count from.

You cannot defend this play this way.

The worst is that Savage is VERY late to recognize the ball. He is still worried about that TE after the end around has gotten the corner. He is so late he cannot fill (forward) he moves backward so as not to be passed by.

Either King has to follow or Savage has to abandon that TE to King.

The numbers just don't work any other way. Looks like scheme, teaching and keys to me. Of course, its only one play and I am just guessing.

https://twitter.com/BenFennell_NFL/status/1219274999678357506

[Zool]

Can't the defense try to be at least as good as Avis?

How many times do they have to pick them up? Eliminate the turnovers and it might be a 17-10 game at half.

[pbmax]

Woof. Here is the Bear front Nutz talked about I believe. But its Adams-Lancaster-Lowry while Clark presumably gets a breather. Bowen covers the bad angles of the DBs. But ...

https://twitter.com/MattBowen41/status/1219420460837933056

Adams gets DT'd and gets through it, though he retreats too much. But he gets the edge on his guy. However, he is off balance and as soon as the back cuts off him, he falls down. Needs to win quicker and cleaner with better balance. But hey, he won a battle.

Lancaster engages and loses immediately. Gets way out over his skis and is lucky he doesn't end up on ground. But having to step forward to regain balance takes him out of play. Poor. If he wins, he can squeeze the play and give the back only one cut option.

Lowry engages but lets the O lineman cut him off. When attempting to get through it, Lowry hits the ground. Useless.

Both Niner lineman looked like they grabbed jersey to pull Lancaster and Lowry forward and down, but video is poor quality.

Nitro backer 35 (Campbell?) gets blocked nearly to ground BUT he gets his head and arm to his gap responsibility side which on this play counts as a clean win if we grade on a curve.

Martinez gets to his gap but cannot shed the blocker and so cannot close the gap between him and ball carrier and Adams nearly on the ground.

Hard to say who had the gap next to Adams. By alignment pre-snap, might have been Lancaster, who never gets close. Martinez is aligned between Lancaster and Lowry and he reads correctly, but he can't beat the block that get the spot well before he does.

[pbmax]

How many times do they have to pick them up? Eliminate the turnovers and it might be a 17-10 game at half.

How about once since 2014?

Even at 17-10, 49ers are still running the ball like madmen. That wouldn't stop. Its like a track meet with only the steeplechase and hurdles.

[Deputy Nutz]

Watch this play. The WR, top of screen, is getting the ball on an end around that is blocked like a screen (eventually). Before that, 49ers sell an inside handoff to the left.

P Smith crashes down the line chasing the FB, taking himself COMPLETELY out of the play. You could make the case that he is trying to help versus the inside run. But what he does is completely abandon the outside before knowing where the ball is. No EDGE.

King backs off coverage almost like a zone and goes to play deep safety. Probably his responsibility since a safety will have to fill in on the left side of the D when that receiver gets there.

Play side CB gets blocked easily. Martinez and Goodson buy the inside fake and step up. Goodson looks like he has coverage on that back if he is a receiver. But Martinez is way up on the LOS too.

Savage is watching the TE who could release to D right after blocking.

There is just no one to cover the end around guy. When WR gets the ball on a toss, there are three Packers in between the hashes. One oustide the hashes on the play side. Four Packers to beat with 5-6 blockers depending on where you count from.

You cannot defend this play this way.

The worst is that Savage is VERY late to recognize the ball. He is still worried about that TE after the end around has gotten the corner. He is so late he cannot fill (forward) he moves backward so as not to be passed by.

Either King has to follow or Savage has to abandon that TE to King.

The numbers just don't work any other way. Looks like scheme, teaching and keys to me. Of course, its only one play and I am just guessing.

https://twitter.com/BenFennell_NFL/status/1219274999678357506

That is in fact a bear front. I am sorry, the play that I was referring to was looked like the Bear's 46 scheme under Buddy Ryan where you stack the safety over the TE and kick out the DE or OLB on the strong side.

Bear Front
http://www.elevenwarriors.com/sites/default/files/c/2015/09/Screen%20Shot%202015-09-01%20at%205.39.14%20PM.png

46
https://joedanielfootball.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Figure-1-450x253.png

Similar as both use two 3T tackles, obviously why they are called Bear and sometimes the Bear 46

[Deputy Nutz]

https://twitter.com/MattBowen41/status/1219420460837933056 (https://twitter.com/MattBowen41/status/121942046083793305633056)
Where it all fails
The Packers' defense is not balanced in the box to the formation. It's 21 personnel in the I formation and the Packers are a guy short to the Tight End side.

They can double at the point of attack, single with center, which Lancaster should feel disgraced on that pathetic performance, hinge the backside 3t, and cut off OLB with zone footwork.

It's nothing complicated just a zone scheme with a lead block, it happens so easily it honestly looks like ISO. The combo on playside DT works flawlessly because Adams doesn't recognize the double right away and the guard is able to get position way too easily the playside OT can then disengage to pick up the MLB, and the Fullback has a easy lead block on a safety.

The Play side OLB correctly reads the reach block from the tight end and although he doesn't work hard enough to defeat the block on the line of scrimmage and creates an even bigger running lane, he does maintains outside leverage. Z. Smith has absolutely terrible footwork on this play, he is not ready at the snap of the ball and he can't attack the TE to help close down the C gap.

It is simply too easy for the 49ers based on the alignment and the effort. Not one single player defeated a block on that play.

[texaspackerbacker]

It's hard to dispute that, but why then did not Seattle or Minnesota or basically anybody other than maybe Denver exploit what the Packers do like the Niners did?

[Deputy Nutz]

1st off, Jimmy and Joes. Kittle is a very good blocking TE and they have and use one of the best fullbacks in the game.

Secondly, I am not sure what the Packers where trying to do in the above play, their base defense uses their nickel personnel. They lack two quality inside linebackers to take on a team that relied on the run as much as San Fran did on Sunday.

[pbmax]

This story about the organization of Browns practice under Pettine is almost too crazy to believe.

https://twitter.com/ThomaHawkShow/status/1219333882400522240

That is Joe Thomas and Andrew Hawkins' podcast.

[pbmax]

That is in fact a bear front. I am sorry, the play that I was referring to was looked like the Bear's 46 scheme under Buddy Ryan where you stack the safety over the TE and kick out the DE or OLB on the strong side.

Bear Front
http://www.elevenwarriors.com/sites/default/files/c/2015/09/Screen%20Shot%202015-09-01%20at%205.39.14%20PM.png

46
https://joedanielfootball.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Figure-1-450x253.png

Similar as both use two 3T tackles, obviously why they are called Bear and sometimes the Bear 46

Yes, when I said Bear front, I was looking at the 3 DL on the center and two guards. I'm surprised I didn't mix it up :D

[pbmax]

1st off, Jimmy and Joes. Kittle is a very good blocking TE and they have and use one of the best fullbacks in the game.

Secondly, I am not sure what the Packers where trying to do in the above play, their base defense uses their nickel personnel. They lack two quality inside linebackers to take on a team that relied on the run as much as San Fran did on Sunday.

They have to have been keying personnel on the down and distance for that play. Maybe field position?

Its the most traditional old school 21 [2 RB/FB, 1 TE] personnel group. Why is Campbell in there when they were heavy up front?

Goodson played a decent amount of snaps. They weren't afraid of Kittle on him for each play.

[pbmax]

https://twitter.com/MattBowen41/status/1219420460837933056 (https://twitter.com/MattBowen41/status/121942046083793305633056)
Where it all fails
The Packers' defense is not balanced in the box to the formation. It's 21 personnel in the I formation and the Packers are a guy short to the Tight End side.

They can double at the point of attack, single with center, which Lancaster should feel disgraced on that pathetic performance, hinge the backside 3t, and cut off OLB with zone footwork.

It's nothing complicated just a zone scheme with a lead block, it happens so easily it honestly looks like ISO. The combo on playside DT works flawlessly because Adams doesn't recognize the double right away and the guard is able to get position way too easily the playside OT can then disengage to pick up the MLB, and the Fullback has a easy lead block on a safety.

The Play side OLB correctly reads the reach block from the tight end and although he doesn't work hard enough to defeat the block on the line of scrimmage and creates an even bigger running lane, he does maintains outside leverage. Z. Smith has absolutely terrible footwork on this play, he is not ready at the snap of the ball and he can't attack the TE to help close down the C gap.

It is simply too easy for the 49ers based on the alignment and the effort. Not one single player defeated a block on that play.


If you watch the first second of the clip, Lowry gestures toward Lancaster who is head on over the center. I bet he was supposed to slide left one technique.