Gutekunst's 2020 Plan Revealed

[pbmax]

The more conspiratorial minded PackerRats have convinced themselves that Gute is throwing in the towel on the Rodgers era.

Faced with the difficulty of moving on from a superstar QB, that he has decided, apparently within the last 3-4 months, to hang Rodgers out to dry, draft for the future and hope he gets the message before next offseason so they can get to the "real" plan sooner rather than later.

You can tell they desperately want you to believe this fiction because they repeat it during everyday conversations when you might think the subject is more mundane:

Message Board The Broncos traded up, they aren't rebuilding like the Packers are.

Take Out I'll take the #25 chicken, 1 pint of rice plus 2 orders of Crab Rangoon and by the way, how do you feel the Packers rebuild is going so far?

Family Chat Mom, Dad, everyone here is fine. Glad to know you are too. How does Dad feel about the Packers rebuilding?

[mraynrand]

Wait, so what is the REAL plan, PB?

[Upnorth]

Loved the teaser on the rebuild thread, but was not expecting this to be the lead on the new thread.

[mraynrand]

The best time to stock up on TP is when the stores are full of choices, not when there is a run on TP and you got nothing on the roll at home.

[Bretsky]

Your post confuses me and I miss the point.

I think Jordan Love has talent but I'm a value guy and IMO it was too years early and unless he turns into an All Pro we got terrible value

If the second round pick isn't a good insurance policy for Jones leaving Gutebag clearly does not subscribe to the BPA theory, or the BPA with need theory, OR his draft board is alien to many of the boards of the best teams in the NFL who were drafting behind him

The third round pick, Holy Shit. I'm not sure you'll find a defense of that one unless you feel we are drafting a guy too early cause he fits a future system.

We have no fourth round pick; and that's ok at this point.

We should trade round 5 for as many sixths as we can, and just stockpile what we hit on the dart board and hope something sticks

[mraynrand]

Your post confuses me and I miss the point.


me too. I get the conspiracy rebuild part. But what is the ACTUAL plan. I think I know, but want to know what PB thinks it is.

[Teamcheez1]

Your post confuses me and I miss the point.

I think Jordan Love has talent but I'm a value guy and IMO it was too years early and unless he turns into an All Pro we got terrible value

If the second round pick isn't a good insurance policy for Jones leaving Gutebag clearly does not subscribe to the BPA theory, or the BPA with need theory, OR his draft board is alien to many of the boards of the best teams in the NFL who were drafting behind him

The third round pick, Holy Shit. I'm not sure you'll find a defense of that one unless you feel we are drafting a guy too early cause he fits a future system.

We have no fourth round pick; and that's ok at this point.

We should trade round 5 for as many sixths as we can, and just stockpile what we hit on the dart board and hope something sticks

Whether they took Love or not, I would have been shocked if Rodgers played more than two more seasons with the Packers.

[pbmax]

Why is this a fiction:

1. The Packers front office moved on from a popular, successful coach who perhaps had worn out his welcome by not exactly helping him during the 2018 off season. Thinking they don't have the stomach for a fight with the QB seems like a stretch, especially with a new and restructured regime in charge. The faster that regime gets is players in place, the more time they have to tweak and perfect it. Releasing or trading the QB in '21 or '22 will be 3 or 4 years into Gutekunst's term. If he doesn't have results by then and is in the middle of a rebuild, he is in trouble contract wise. That is a risky bet. Same with the coach.

2. Any rebuild is helped by acquiring assets. The Packers assets acquired during this period include possibly 3 comp picks for 2021 which followed a year they received none because they spent a boatload in FA). If they wanted to rebuild, they would be trading players for picks, not signing FAs. That includes 2 significant though not game changing FAs this offseason.

3. La Fleur's offense works best with athletic lineman not Derrick Henry. This offense turns 6th round RBs into stars with the right O line. You don't need a fast bowling ball in Round 3 more than you need a better Guard than Turner and a better Tackle than Wagner or Veldheer.

4. Rodgers extension means that assets from trading him won't be realized be realized until next year at the earliest and his cap hit will be highest. Drafting talent and then spending money puts the rebuild out even further, jeopardizing Gutekunst's chances of a new deal.

5. Torpedoing Rodgers doesn't help your defense which you will want to be good to help a young QB.

[pbmax]

Wait, so what is the REAL plan, PB?

Hang on, the manifesto is a work in progress!

[pbmax]

So what is the real plan?

1. The Packers were 13-3 last year. That ain't bad. You might believe you are the shit if you engineered that in Year 2 with a new coach.

2. There is reason for optimism on offense as you get everyone back but Allison and Bulaga and BB has been effectively replaced. It'll be Year 2 in the scheme and you can easily see another Top 10 finish. Graham hopefully is addition by subtraction if Stormbringer can actually play.

3. You believe you have upgraded ILB and with a little luck, that will play dividends against the 49ers and shore up the biggest weakness.

4. You think you can help the coach's offense in the draft by getting him something specific for his offense.

5. With the Smiths on Year 2 of this defense and now three games against them, Pettine will come up with a straightforward plan for the 49ers.

6. Kirksey and Savage hold the keys for a better middle of the defense.

7. You have somehow convinced yourself, or been convinced by coaches, that Lowry and Lancaster are good enough. Or that Adams is ready.

8. Encyclopdia St. Brown will be the starter opposite Adams and MVS will return to 2018 and early 2019 form.

9. By not breaking the bank now, you will have cash and cap going forward to sign the important future free agents (Clark, Bach, King, Jones)

[pbmax]

Given those 9 assumptions, I think the likelier scenario is that Gute does not think last year was a fluke.

He thinks they are ready to contend again. The Bears have 18 TEs, the Vikings will be very new and young on D and are missing Diggs and have Cousins as QB and the Lions are the Lions.

The 49ers are formidable but are beatable.

Gute could think he can ride a 13-3 season and a first year head coach to a slow rebuild that might take him to Year 5 as GM. But I don't think he is that bold.

I think he is Ted's guy who trusts the board (perhaps a little beyond what caution might suggest) plus a little FA.

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

Given those 9 assumptions, I think the likelier scenario is that Gute does not think last year was a fluke.

He thinks they are ready to contend again. The Bears have 18 TEs, the Vikings will be very new and young on D and are missing Diggs and hav Cousins as QB and the Lions are the Lions.

The 49ers are formidable but are beatable.

Gute could think he can ride a 13-3 season and a first year head coach to a slow rebuild that might take him to Year 5 as GM. But I don't think he is that bold.

I think he is Ted's guy who trusts the board (perhaps a little beyond what caution might suggest) plus a little FA.

Ok, maybe, but I still have not seen a plausible explanation of why they took the round 2 and 3 picks? They certainly don't need them, and the value was horrendous.

[pbmax]

Gute thinks everything is fine and you need to remain calm. This does betray an unwillingness to go all in, sacrifice the future and behave very Lions-ish to try to score a title with Rodgers as QB. But I am not sure the Pacers are, as an organization, built to be run like that.

This isn't a rebuild. This is how they work. If Love is very good, it'll probably work again. But it probably doesn't get Rodgers ring #2.

[pbmax]

Ok, maybe, but I still have not seen a plausible explanation of why they took the round 2 and 3 picks? They certainly don't need them, and the value was horrendous.

Board told them to take them, especially the RB. They needed a RB with more juice than Jamaal Williams and to hedge against Jones being hurt or lost to FA. During the Derrick Henry breakout year under The Flower, Dion Lewis still got 155 carries. He likes to share the load. And Williams has never been a natural one cut back.

The Flower wanted an H back, that was reported a week or two ago which helps run/pass flexibility

Without a 4th round pick, they probably took at least one a round earlier than planned. I can see each helping his offense this year though.

More of a question to me, and why I think this plan is doomed for disappointment, is that I think he has fundamentally misjudged his defense.

[RashanGary]

Gute also took a punter in the 5th round and a long snapper in the 7tb two years ago.

Gute will take specialized guys higher than TT ever would.

The specialized zone runner and flexible FB/TE body seem like luxury picks. But we shall see. That's high capital for guys who aren't all around ball players at their position

[bobblehead]

Wait, so what is the REAL plan, PB?

To build a roster that will dominate the decathlon in the 2024 Olympics.

[mraynrand]

Ok, maybe, but I still have not seen a plausible explanation of why they took the round 2 and 3 picks? They certainly don't need them, and the value was horrendous.

I explained these picks in an other thread. They are building the Flower Power offense. The draft influences people to look at picks in terms like 'value' and 'ranks' according to 'tiers.' That's all fine, but it doesn't really address team building. For example, is Mims better than either of the two picks (RB TE) straight up? Probably. Is he a better 'fit' for what Flower wants to do? Maybe not at all. Maybe he's a great WR for Rodgers in Stubby's offense, but not in this offense. Time will tell.

[Packers4Glory]

all I know is they're either full of shit lying saying that the day 2 picks were the highest left on their board....or they really need to clean house and fire the scouting department. one dummy quoted tried comparing Dillon to Barkley. so I imagine both things I just said are true.

[mraynrand]

To build a roster that will dominate the decathlon in the 2024 Olympics.

I didn't see that any of these guys had parents who were olympians. Fortunately, according to the NFL Network, they all have the required terrible Tragic Deaths in their families. I was unaware before this draft that Olympic Parents and Tragic Deaths had been added to the combine, but apparently, I am out of the loop.

[Packers4Glory]

I explained these picks in an other thread. They are building the Flower Power offense. The draft influences people to look at picks in terms like 'value' and 'ranks' according to 'tiers.' That's all fine, but it doesn't really address team building. For example, is Mims better than either of the two picks (RB TE) straight up? Probably. Is he a better 'fit' for what Flower wants to do? Maybe not at all. Maybe he's a great WR for Rodgers in Stubby's offense, but not in this offense. Time will tell.
well, MVS and everyone outside of Lazard don't seem to be a fit either or they're just not talented enough to fit. either way we have 3 WR, 1 great one, 1 ok one, and 1 guy developing with some potential. The rest? trash. Better hope St.Brown comes back and lights it up.

[Upnorth]

Re assumption #8, I believe people used to think wrs tend to have a sophomore slump. I don't know if the data backs that up, but if it does we could see a substantial up swing in our wr Corp this season.
Re #3, I have no Faith we have upgraded our ilb, unless Kirk can flip his injury issues which goes against packers trends.
If he can stay on the field he is an upgrade though.

[mraynrand]

one dummy quoted tried comparing Dillon to Barkley. so I imagine both things I just said are true.

So long as he doesn't compare to Gurley this year, I will be OK with it.

[Packers4Glory]

Re assumption #8, I believe people used to think wrs tend to have a sophomore slump. I don't know if the data backs that up, but if it does we could see a substantial up swing in our wr Corp this season.
Re #3, I have no Faith we have upgraded our ilb, unless Kirk can flip his injury issues which goes against packers trends.
If he can stay on the field he is an upgrade though.

ILB makes no difference if you have 1 legitimate DL and the rest who should be fighting for a roster spot.

[bobblehead]

me too. I get the conspiracy rebuild part. But what is the ACTUAL plan. I think I know, but want to know what PB thinks it is.

Through 2.5 drafts it has become clear that Gutes has read an article written by some numbers geek about RAS score.

Love had the 2nd top RAS score of any serious prospect (Herbert being the first) and I also read somewhere Love was Gutes 2nd rated QB this year. Dillon had the top RAS score of any RB this year. Past 2 drafts have been similar (Gary was an obscene 9.95). Gutes is doing the anti Hoodie. He is drafting athletes and hoping he can teach them to play football instead of football players who can work out hard and improve their athleticism.

[Bretsky]

MY LAST DECADE THEORY IS RUNNING OUT OF TIME

AROD is an elite QB; between his decision making and refusal to put an average defense in bad spots with turnovers, Green Bay pretty much starts the season with eight wins. A GM that surrounded him, between the draft and free agency with above average talent to work with would have yielded multiple Super Bowls. Ted hit the jackpot with Rodgers but he failed him after that. Even though hit play has dropped off, he still gets GB at or close to 8 wins before the season starts. But his play is slowly deteriorating and I'm not sure how long this keeps happening

Every chip fell into place last year for GB to get to 13-3. Talent wise we were a 10-6 team and for Gutebag not to see this makes him delusional IMO. We had next to no injuries which never occurs in the NFL, we got breaks from the referees which helped us win a game or two (see Detroit), and we played the Chiefs without Patrick Mahommes and slipped a win out there

San Francisco made us our bitch twice in games that count. They dominate us up front, they ran the ball down our throats making the Northwestern Nanny's look like a Northwestern football player form the 80's, and exposing our LB'ing crew and defense in multiple areas. Their DL tore our offensive line apart as well. Rodgers played poorly game one, and while it was a game in the first half of game two; but we didn't have close the personnell needed to match up to San Fran.

If Love turns out to be a perrenial Prp Bowler this was a good move, and like Rodgers draft pick one that sacrifices the present for the future. The second and third round picks, when you can get blue chips, were both puzzling to the optimist.

The last two days were bad ones IMO if we are trying to keep up with San Francisco, and the Saints, and the other ascending teams in the NFC.

Maybe it'll look great in five years. Short term it does not.

[Packers4Glory]

Ted tried to fix the defense by drafting outside in. DB after DB wasted early in drafts instead of building a solid D line. we seem to always have 1 guy and a bunch of meh lineman who can't stop the run....just like it is today.

[King Friday]

San Francisco made us our bitch twice in games that count.

Being able to make a team their OWN bitch is truly impressive. They didn't even consider us worthy of effort...so they made us hump ourselves.

[Bretsky]

Through 2.5 drafts it has become clear that Gutes has read an article written by some numbers geek about RAS score.

Love had the 2nd top RAS score of any serious prospect (Herbert being the first) and I also read somewhere Love was Gutes 2nd rated QB this year. Dillon had the top RAS score of any RB this year. Past 2 drafts have been similar (Gary was an obscene 9.95). Gutes is doing the anti Hoodie. He is drafting athletes and hoping he can teach them to play football instead of football players who can work out hard and improve their athleticism.



Anit Hoody to the Extreme

HOODY GENIUS Takes the best football players and adjust his schemes based on what they to best to maximize their abilities.

Gotebag seems to be drafting players to fit a system.

[bobblehead]

Board told them to take them, especially the RB. They needed a RB with more juice than Jamaal Williams and to hedge against Jones being hurt or lost to FA. During the Derrick Henry breakout year under The Flower, Dion Lewis still got 155 carries. He likes to share the load. And Williams has never been a natural one cut back.

The Flower wanted an H back, that was reported a week or two ago which helps run/pass flexibility

Without a 4th round pick, they probably took at least one a round earlier than planned. I can see each helping his offense this year though.

More of a question to me, and why I think this plan is doomed for disappointment, is that I think he has fundamentally misjudged his defense.

I disagree. I think Williams is actually a better one cut back than Jones. Jones is an inside zone guy who will weave through the traffic. Same as JTaylor (if we switch schemes we should have taken Taylor.) Dillon is seems to be able to run either inside or outside (he is better at inside I think). A better change of pace than Williams. The packers have shown an ability to block both inside and outside zone and likely will continue to do so based on the D they are facing. Flower will use all 3 backs this year.

Gutes simply learned from TT to stick to HIS board, not Mel Kipers. Problem is he isn't the evaluator that TT was. As I said, he likes athletes over football players.

[Packers4Glory]

Hey maybe Dillon was all about being sick of not converting 3rd and 4th and shorts lol one problem solved.

[Upnorth]

After love I see the Dillon and Debra picks as specifically being made to challenge teams like SF (and to a lesser extent NO) on o. Big ball controling back and someone else to help on block or provide out routes with the te. I actually like the Dillon pick, but think they missed on the te. Plus the Wagner signing who I think is being put to guard when our line is healthy could improve our run blocking.

As to the d side if healthy kirk will be better at cleaning up the runners who get by Clark than Martinez so a possible improvement there, just not enough yet.

[bobblehead]

all I know is they're either full of shit lying saying that the day 2 picks were the highest left on their board....or they really need to clean house and fire the scouting department. one dummy quoted tried comparing Dillon to Barkley. so I imagine both things I just said are true.

I think this year will tell you the answer. People loved to hammer TT and say his drafts were awful. I have laid out that it was ONE draft that sucked. If the Alexander draft is as bad as it looked then 3 years out I can say its as bad as any draft TT ever had. If Burks or Jackson or MVS break out as a real starter and then one other player becomes a heavy contributor it looks a lot better....2 big ifs.

[bobblehead]

I didn't see that any of these guys had parents who were olympians. Fortunately, according to the NFL Network, they all have the required terrible Tragic Deaths in their families. I was unaware before this draft that Olympic Parents and Tragic Deaths had been added to the combine, but apparently, I am out of the loop.

I was referring to RAS scores. We definitely have the most athletic roster in the NFL right now.

[mraynrand]

I was referring to RAS scores. We definitely have the most athletic roster in the NFL right now.

I was just expressing sarcasm over the awful NFLN draft coverage

[mraynrand]

HOODY GENIUS Takes the best football players and adjust his schemes based on what they to best to maximize their abilities..

He sure does. His work with his WRs last season was epic.

[bobblehead]

MY LAST DECADE THEORY IS RUNNING OUT OF TIME

AROD is an elite QB; between his decision making and refusal to put an average defense in bad spots with turnovers, Green Bay pretty much starts the season with eight wins. A GM that surrounded him, between the draft and free agency with above average talent to work with would have yielded multiple Super Bowls. Ted hit the jackpot with Rodgers but he failed him after that. Even though hit play has dropped off, he still gets GB at or close to 8 wins before the season starts. But his play is slowly deteriorating and I'm not sure how long this keeps happening.

The problem with your theory is that we had one of the TOP offenses in the league with weapons everywhere and a great OL. We kept getting punked early in the playoffs for 2 reasons. A bad defense and no running game (or refusal to call running plays). MM was a great offensive passing mind. In the playoffs, I can't say it enough times....you need to run successfully and play good D to win an Owl. The only exception is having a top 3 QB in his absolute prime to work with. That will net you 1 or 2 Owls....it got us 1. It got the chiefs one. It got the colts one. Brady is wildly over rated (but wicked smart). The year he broke passing records the Giants punked him in the SB. The best year Rodgers had the Giants punked him in the playoffs.

Physical football. Smash mouth run game and great D win championships. Occasionally a talent like Rodgers, Maholmes and Manning break the mold. On really rare occasions a team with a QB like that does it correctly and wins multiple Owls. Brady was near that level, but a step below all 3 in my opinion, but he would audible from pass to run more often than all 3 of those guys combined.....and the Patriots consistently have a top 5 defense (with very few "playmakers" on offense)

[RashanGary]

Hoody starting Marshall Newhouse at LT was straight genius last year

[pbmax]

Ted tried to fix the defense by drafting outside in. DB after DB wasted early in drafts instead of building a solid D line. we seem to always have 1 guy and a bunch of meh lineman who can't stop the run....just like it is today.

In the first half of the decade, this was a sensible approach. Raji and Pickett and Perry and Peppers and Matthews were OK. After that, it was a scramble. Only Clark had his finger in the damn at that was 2017.

[RashanGary]

The problem with your theory is that we had one of the TOP offenses in the league with weapons everywhere and a great OL. We kept getting punked early in the playoffs for 2 reasons. A bad defense and no running game (or refusal to call running plays). MM was a great offensive passing mind. In the playoffs, I can't say it enough times....you need to run successfully and play good D to win an Owl. The only exception is having a top 3 QB in his absolute prime to work with. That will net you 1 or 2 Owls....it got us 1. It got the chiefs one. It got the colts one. Brady is wildly over rated (but wicked smart). The year he broke passing records the Giants punked him in the SB. The best year Rodgers had the Giants punked him in the playoffs.

Physical football. Smash mouth run game and great D win championships. Occasionally a talent like Rodgers, Maholmes and Manning break the mold. On really rare occasions a team with a QB like that does it correctly and wins multiple Owls. Brady was near that level, but a step below all 3 in my opinion, but he would audible from pass to run more often than all 3 of those guys combined.....and the Patriots consistently have a top 5 defense (with very few "playmakers" on offense)

Ready to play QBs on their rookie deals are nice too. Lately a few Owls are going that way too.

[Bretsky]

Hoody starting Marshall Newhouse at LT was straight genius last year

Nit pick how you want; I just have one word as a response

Championships

[RashanGary]

Looking down the list of SB winners, defense is a theme. A couple low priced rookie deal QBs. A few game managers, a couple star QBs in their primes.... But defense is a theme. Safety play is a theme.

[pbmax]

The important point of this completely sensible thread (thank you all for helping) is that Gutekunst thinks he is on course. He's not playing 3D chess with Rodgers future and folding his tent to rebuild.

I'd say he has a fighting chance to be right on offense, though its a huge bet on his current receivers. If they get Veldheer back (or a draftee) I think they will be OK on the O line.

But I think he runs a much larger risk of being wrong about his defense.

[RashanGary]

If you look through the list of SB winners, definitely defense is the strongest theme. Even more than star QB in prime, defense is the strongest pattern

[bobblehead]

Every chip fell into place last year for GB to get to 13-3. Talent wise we were a 10-6 team and for Gutebag not to see this makes him delusional IMO. We had next to no injuries which never occurs in the NFL, we got breaks from the referees which helped us win a game or two (see Detroit), and we played the Chiefs without Patrick Mahommes and slipped a win out there

San Francisco made us our bitch twice in games that count. They dominate us up front, they ran the ball down our throats making the Northwestern Nanny's look like a Northwestern football player form the 80's, and exposing our LB'ing crew and defense in multiple areas. Their DL tore our offensive line apart as well. Rodgers played poorly game one, and while it was a game in the first half of game two; but we didn't have close the personnell needed to match up to San Fran.
.

Yet Seattle came within 6 inches of making SF a wildcard team and we proceeded to dismantle Seattle the previous week. We had to play SF IN SF both times. We also don't really match up to them very good. Shannahan is a great coach. And Rodgers and the offense took the first half off that playoff game. Rodgers threw 2 picks and lost a fumble he looked disinterested in recovering. In falling behind 17-0 we went 5 and out 5 and out 3 and out and 6 and fumble the snap. They played a stinker in a big playoff game again. Flower was outcoached, the D played poorly and Rodgers was awful. The D held them to another FG and what did Rodgers do? Pick.

Its a team game. Rodgers can't carry a team. No QB really can. You say every chip fell into place, yet in the Playoffs we beat everyone but the 49ers. The team is solid because TT left us with some talent and Gutes spent the money TT left us with. The team will be bad real soon cuz Rodgers is getting older and Gutes drafts like old people fuck.

[pbmax]

Re assumption #8, I believe people used to think wrs tend to have a sophomore slump. I don't know if the data backs that up, but if it does we could see a substantial up swing in our wr Corp this season.
Re #3, I have no Faith we have upgraded our ilb, unless Kirk can flip his injury issues which goes against packers trends.
If he can stay on the field he is an upgrade though.

Good point about MVS especially. And ESB was hurt. I get this wishful thinking.

I am perplexed about the D line though.

[pbmax]

Yet Seattle came within 6 inches of making SF a wildcard team and we proceeded to dismantle Seattle the previous week. We had to play SF IN SF both times. We also don't really match up to them very good. Shannahan is a great coach. And Rodgers and the offense took the first half off that playoff game. Rodgers threw 2 picks and lost a fumble he looked disinterested in recovering. In falling behind 17-0 we went 5 and out 5 and out 3 and out and 6 and fumble the snap. They played a stinker in a big playoff game again. Flower was outcoached, the D played poorly and Rodgers was awful. The D held them to another FG and what did Rodgers do? Pick.

Its a team game. Rodgers can't carry a team. No QB really can. You say every chip fell into place, yet in the Playoffs we beat everyone but the 49ers. The team is solid because TT left us with some talent and Gutes spent the money TT left us with. The team will be bad real soon cuz Rodgers is getting older and Gutes drafts like old people fuck.

This is my hope for this season but also my worry about the future.

[Bossman641]

Gute is making specialty picks at a time when we don't have the luxury of making specialty picks. Regardless of how good these guys are, they're not "value" picks. A qb on a rookie deal is the biggest value in football....we picked Love but have no way to extract that value. The entire Nfl has shown you can find rb's late...so we waste a second round pick on one.

Gute went to the grocery store to get dinner and came home with condiments but neglected to get an entree.

[pbmax]

I disagree. I think Williams is actually a better one cut back than Jones.

Allow me to rephrase then, Williams is not a very productive runner, regardless of his one cut skills. He is a classic get what's there back. Not explosive.

[bobblehead]

Ted tried to fix the defense by drafting outside in. DB after DB wasted early in drafts instead of building a solid D line. we seem to always have 1 guy and a bunch of meh lineman who can't stop the run....just like it is today.

Was it teds fault MM hated Randall and wouldn't use him at safety? Was it all on Ted that MM let Josh Jones believe he was a backfield safety? Letting Hyde and Hayward walk was on Ted. HaHa wasn't great, but every rat loved that pick. And he is a 6? year starter at this point. Not a exactly a flop. Ted messed up 2 second round picks, Josh Jones and Quentin Rollins. And I maintain Jones was more on MM. TTs drafts are dreams compared to gutes. Total DBs taken within top 3 rounds: Nick Collins, Aaron Rouse, Pat Lee, Morgan Burnett, Casey Hayward, Ha Ha, Randall, Rollins, King and Jones. 1 HOF cut short by neck, 5 more long term starters in the league, 3 1/2 flops. I think 6-3.5 is a pretty good record. Lets look at Gutes so far. Alexander will be long term starter, Jackson is done after this next camp. I hope savage is worth all the draft capital we gave up, but I see a Randall clone so far.
S
His last draft netted King, AJones, JWilliams, and Mt. Adams. Adams is make or break and likely break, but a stud CB a stud RB and a serviceable RB isn't a bad draft. If you expect more than 2 really good starters and a serviceable role player in any given draft you probably will be disappointed....especially always drafting in the back of the round.

[pbmax]

If I am not mistaken, the way the Reggie/Favre Packers got past the Cowboys was to not play them in the 1996 playoffs.

[mraynrand]

Was it teds fault MM hated Randall and wouldn't use him at safety? Was it all on Ted that MM let Josh Jones believe he was a backfield safety? Letting Hyde and Hayward walk was on Ted. HaHa wasn't great, but every rat loved that pick. And he is a 6? year starter at this point. Not a exactly a flop. Ted messed up 2 second round picks, Josh Jones and Quentin Rollins. And I maintain Jones was more on MM. TTs drafts are dreams compared to gutes. Total DBs taken within top 3 rounds: Nick Collins, Aaron Rouse, Pat Lee, Morgan Burnett, Casey Hayward, Ha Ha, Randall, Rollins, King and Jones. 1 HOF cut short by neck, 5 more long term starters in the league, 3 1/2 flops. I think 6-3.5 is a pretty good record. Lets look at Gutes so far. Alexander will be long term starter, Jackson is done after this next camp. I hope savage is worth all the draft capital we gave up, but I see a Randall clone so far.
S
His last draft netted King, AJones, JWilliams, and Mt. Adams. Adams is make or break and likely break, but a stud CB a stud RB and a serviceable RB isn't a bad draft. If you expect more than 2 really good starters and a serviceable role player in any given draft you probably will be disappointed....especially always drafting in the back of the round.

Good post. I only disagree about Savage. I think his injury really derailed his progress/season.

[SMBASS]

Evidently the Packers are a lot higher on Love than I am. Drafting him, (A future QB.) next year would have made a lot more sense than this year in context with Rodger's contract but maybe the reasonable possibility of the season being cancelled this year screwed that idea up? Maybe they didn't see any QB coming out next year who they thought would be better than Love and they'd have a legitimate shot at? If the college season is also cancelled next year's draft with no football in-between could be a complete crap shoot. I'm not even sure how that would work at this point.

[bobblehead]

Ready to play QBs on their rookie deals are nice too. Lately a few Owls are going that way too.
Actually not as many as you think. Goff lost. I don't think Foles was a rookie. Wison got one, maybe Flacco was rookie deal too. Eli in first one?

[SMBASS]

His last draft netted King, AJones, JWilliams, and Mt. Adams. Adams is make or break and likely break, but a stud CB a stud RB and a serviceable RB isn't a bad draft. If you expect more than 2 really good starters and a serviceable role player in any given draft you probably will be disappointed....especially always drafting in the back of the round.

Not sure that I would consider King a stub CB by any stretch based on his injury history and inconsistent play. Decent...okay, stud...the jury is still out.

[George Cumby]

Gute is making specialty picks at a time when we don't have the luxury of making specialty picks. Regardless of how good these guys are, they're not "value" picks. A qb on a rookie deal is the biggest value in football....we picked Love but have no way to extract that value. The entire Nfl has shown you can find rb's late...so we waste a second round pick on one.

Gute went to the grocery store to get dinner and came home with condiments but neglected to get an entree.

Poetry.

[bobblehead]

Nit pick how you want; I just have one word as a response

Championships

But you are arguing we are wasting Rodgers. I am saying getting a ring just cuz you have Rodgers isn't as easy as some seem to think. OMG they wasted: Marino, Peyton, Brees, Rivers, Steve Young, Russell Wilson, Brett Favre, Joe Theisman, Johnny U, Namath, Jim Kelly, Fran Tarkenton. In history ONLY Brady, Montana, Aikman, and Bradshaw were not wasted. Any other to win 2 Owls or more either did it with different teams, or were not nearly as good QB's as others I listed. Of those not "wasted" I think all 4 strangely and coincidentally had dominant run games and dominant Ds. Brady never had very good WR talent. Montana had #1 D almost every year. Aikman had Emmit and that line. Bradshaw had Franco and that D. Not a single one put up prolific passing numbers with any consistency.

[mraynrand]

Gute is making specialty picks at a time when we don't have the luxury of making specialty picks. Regardless of how good these guys are, they're not "value" picks. A qb on a rookie deal is the biggest value in football....we picked Love but have no way to extract that value. The entire Nfl has shown you can find rb's late...so we waste a second round pick on one.

Gute went to the grocery store to get dinner and came home with condiments but neglected to get an entree.

1) Who cares so much about 'value' if the picks fit your team and actually perform?
2) Gute actually went to and bought a fresh entree from a new restaurant but the wife re-heated the excellent lasagne from last week.

[Smidgeon]

Well, most defenses play the Packers offense by making the run game beat them. With Rodgers as the QB, wouldn't you too? Perhaps the front office/coaching staff truly believes the missing piece is a consistent run game (two RB starting talents instead of just one). Aaron Jones has shown he's a swiss army knife. They can wheel route him or send him out wide. And he can catch. And run. Now keep him healthy by giving him a bulldozer to spell him (who also has pretty good speed). Now defenses have to pay attention to the running game or risk getting their defense worn out in the 4th quarter (or sooner) because of time of possession. And paying even a little more attention to the run game makes Rodgers even better. They need another WR. But maybe Stormbringer is that good. Maybe Dagger is too. They both "know how to catch the ball".

I still think they need another WR. I would be disappointed if in a class where you "can get a starting WR in the 5th round" the Packers walk away without getting one at all. If that happens, the draft probably fell wrong in every single round (Aiyuk in 1st, Mims in 2nd, Duverney in 3rd, etc), and that happens sometimes (TT had a couple where the players I watched all were drafted 2-3 spots before the Packers--don't remember how those classes turned out, but I was disheartened watching the draft), but I want to see at least one pass catcher in this historical draft of pass catchers.

[bobblehead]

Good post. I only disagree about Savage. I think his injury really derailed his progress/season.

I hope you are right. And its not fair to grade him after only a rookie year anyway. I have hope for Savage, Jenkins, Alexander. The rest...meh.

[bobblehead]

His last draft netted King, AJones, JWilliams, and Mt. Adams. Adams is make or break and likely break, but a stud CB a stud RB and a serviceable RB isn't a bad draft. If you expect more than 2 really good starters and a serviceable role player in any given draft you probably will be disappointed....especially always drafting in the back of the round.

Not sure that I would consider King a stub CB by any stretch based on his injury history and inconsistent play. Decent...okay, stud...the jury is still out.

He consistently matches up with the big fast WR that Alexander can't cover. And last year I noticed how often I saw Alexander make plays (which I'm happy about) because the QB was choosing to throw at him instead of King (which I'm happier about).

[George Cumby]

If I am not mistaken, the way the Reggie/Favre Packers got past the Cowboys was to not play them in the 1996 playoffs.

I think the '96 Packers win that one, but Carolina did our dirty work for us.

[Bossman641]

1) Who cares so much about 'value' if the picks fit your team and actually perform?
2) Gute actually went to and bought a fresh entree from a new restaurant but the wife re-heated the excellent lasagne from last week.

Chances are any time Dillon plays in place of Jones it's a downgrade. He'll most likely be an upgrade on Wiiliams but not in Jones' class. That's not worth a second round pick IMO.

Gute and Lafleur must think the wr's are better then the rest of the world. If you had told Packer nation in Feb that the only wr/te addition through FA and 3 rounds of the draft was Funchess I don't think anyone would have believed that.

[Gotarace]

All I know is we took three Players in the Draft we didn't need or have a Glaring Hole at the Positions and at spots in the Draft where we overpaid Severely for them...This Draft has me searching for answers like no other.

[RashanGary]

Actually not as many as you think. Goff lost. I don't think Foles was a rookie. Wison got one, maybe Flacco was rookie deal too. Eli in first one?

Eli, Rodgers at a really low cap number, Wilson, Mahommes.

[MadtownPacker]

If I am not mistaken, the way the Reggie/Favre Packers got past the Cowboys was to not play them in the 1996 playoffs.Better hope Seattle helps out versus SF the next year or two otherwise it ain’t happening.

[texaspackerbacker]

So what is the real plan?

1. The Packers were 13-3 last year. That ain't bad. You might believe you are the shit if you engineered that in Year 2 with a new coach.

2. There is reason for optimism on offense as you get everyone back but Allison and Bulaga and BB has been effectively replaced. It'll be Year 2 in the scheme and you can easily see another Top 10 finish. Graham hopefully is addition by subtraction if Stormbringer can actually play.

3. You believe you have upgraded ILB and with a little luck, that will play dividends against the 49ers and shore up the biggest weakness.

4. You think you can help the coach's offense in the draft by getting him something specific for his offense.

5. With the Smiths on Year 2 of this defense and now three games against them, Pettine will come up with a straightforward plan for the 49ers.

6. Kirksey and Savage hold the keys for a better middle of the defense.

7. You have somehow convinced yourself, or been convinced by coaches, that Lowry and Lancaster are good enough. Or that Adams is ready.

8. Encyclopdia St. Brown will be the starter opposite Adams and MVS will return to 2018 and early 2019 form.

9. By not breaking the bank now, you will have cash and cap going forward to sign the important future free agents (Clark, Bach, King, Jones)

Yeah, this is more like it. I get disgusted with this idiotic rebuilding talk too.

Obviously, I'm as pissed off as anybody with the way the draft has gone, but the more I read about Love and even Dillon, the more I calm down a little bit. As for the need for speed at WR, Quez and Quintez are still out there and I think will be when we finally get to draft again (not that Quintez is fast, but he would be a nice deep threat). There probably are other speed guys what we don't know about.

IMO, our passing game has gotten by for years with a substandard O Line, and it was good enough last year for a decent running game. I always said we don't need to draft an ILB early because of Pettine's style of D and so seldom having two ILBs on the field. And I have some hope that this FA, Willis is gonna help the D Line.

So yeah, things ain't too bad. And I never never never want the team to be so stupid as to really tear down and rebuild like some teams do.

Sign Clark for sure, probably Aaron Jones and Linsley, and maybe low ball Bakhtiari and King - I don't have a very high opinion of them anyway.

[RashanGary]

I watched a lot of NFL football last year. Other than Lamar, Mahommes and Wilson (guys who are run/pass threats without scheme) the NFL is going toward run/pass schemes to keep defenses off balance.

Outside zone with same action boots
Delayed RPO action
Traditional play action

So we're getting guys who make Rodgers life easier. He's too old to be extending every play. But Rodgers had a great year. He's a winner and unselfish at this point in his career . This is good.

[pbmax]

Eli, Rodgers at a really low cap number, Wilson, Mahommes.

Rodgers was 6 years into his career and on his second contract and it was BEFORE the new CBA. You can't count that one.

[pbmax]

Better hope Seattle helps out versus SF the next year or two otherwise it ain’t happening.

You've been brainwashed by the believers in Calabasas. They have the Packers number but they are eminently beatable.

[RashanGary]

Rodgers was 6 years into his career and on his second contract and it was BEFORE the new CBA. You can't count that one.

Rodgers second contract was real friendly. He was in the early part of a contract that he blew away

[RashanGary]

You've been brainwashed by the believers in Calabasas. They have the Packers number but they are eminently beatable.

I agree.

[ThunderDan]

Rodgers second contract was real friendly. He was in the early part of a contract that he blew away

10 million a year in 2008 was 9% of the total cap.

[RashanGary]

10 million a year in 2008 was 9% of the total cap.

It was 8% in 2010

That would be like AR making 16m/yr right now but in his absolute prime. That was a nice contract.

[Bretsky]

anybody wanna take a bet we don't see 13 wins next year ?

[RashanGary]

anybody wanna take a bet we don't see 13 wins next year ?

I'm a gambler and a Packer fan. I would never take that bet because 13 is rare.

[Bretsky]

I'm a gambler and a Packer fan. I would never take that bet because 13 is rare.



HA; I thought you would be the only guy who "might" bit cause you are trying to jam the homer juice

But deep down you know we've become no better the last two days

But on the brighter note we may have the replacements when Aaron and Aaron leave

[George Cumby]

anybody wanna take a bet we don't see 13 wins next year ?

Tex will take that bet.

[MadtownPacker]

Who give a shit about 13 wins. Just need to get in the playoffs. Being @ Lambeau would not have changed last seasons ending. It just would have further tainted sacred ground.

[RashanGary]

HA; I thought you would be the only guy who "might" bit cause you are trying to jam the homer juice

But deep down you know we've become no better the last two days

But on the brighter note we may have the replacements when Aaron and Aaron leave

We're better. Defenses depend on a lot of little adjustments based on formation and how plays develop. Guys who stay together prey together. We have that going for us.

Best field general in the game right now and a lot of different attack methods available to him. Offense became more unpredictable today and AR will have mfers on their heels.

Very good ST core.

We're better through continuity and growth within. Plus the cherry on the top game manager pieces.

[Fosco33]

Maybe gute is hedging that the season won’t occur??

[Bretsky]

We're better. Defenses depend on a lot of little adjustments based on formation and how plays develop. Guys who stay together prey together. We have that going for us.

Best field general in the game right now and a lot of different attack methods available to him. Offense became more unpredictable today and AR will have mfers on their heels.

Very good ST core.

We're better through continuity and growth within. Plus the cherry on the top game manager pieces.




We lost ground in the last three days

[Smidgeon]

I still think they need another WR. I would be disappointed if in a class where you "can get a starting WR in the 5th round" the Packers walk away without getting one at all. If that happens, the draft probably fell wrong in every single round (Aiyuk in 1st, Mims in 2nd, Duverney in 3rd, etc), and that happens sometimes (TT had a couple where the players I watched all were drafted 2-3 spots before the Packers--don't remember how those classes turned out, but I was disheartened watching the draft), but I want to see at least one pass catcher in this historical draft of pass catchers.

A historically talented WR class + Green Bay desperately needs WR talent + no WR selected = mass confusion.

The Jordan Love selection's impact is unknown and potentially significant. I'm not arguing that pick. But the rest? I hope it's in the vein of a classic TT draft where I have no idea who any of these players are, he selects none that I want, and it ends up being among the best drafts in the league. But looking at it now, this is confusing and disheartening. I think we needed WRs. Gute & M4 apparently didn't agree or didn't think the value was there. In a historic draft, how can the value not be there?

Only two skill positions taken, and neither of them have the primary skill set of catching the ball. Statistics say Rodgers' receivers dropped significantly more passes than anyone else, and we didn't get someone to make that instantly better?

I'm an armchair GM (read: not even a scout), but this draft puts my benefit of the doubt on thin ice. I just don't know what to think.

[Joemailman]

anybody wanna take a bet we don't see 13 wins next year ?

Teams rarely win that many in consecutive years.

[ThunderDan]

Teams rarely win that many in consecutive years.

Yes, very tough to win 13 two years in a row.

Do we win 10 next year?

[Fosco33]

going into the draft we were 1 backup qb and 3rd strong rb away from a championship

[wist43]

Yes, very tough to win 13 two years in a row.

Do we win 10 next year?

I think we're a 9-10 win team, but not legitimate contenders... that is the TT/Gute "process/philosophy".

We'll likely trade Rodgers after this season and hope that Love isn't a bust.

Realistically, we're looking at the 2024 season for any real hope of contending.

[GB-Brandon]

Gute thinks everything is fine and you need to remain calm. This does betray an unwillingness to go all in, sacrifice the future and behave very Lions-ish to try to score a title with Rodgers as QB. But I am not sure the Pacers are, as an organization, built to be run like that.

This isn't a rebuild. This is how they work. If Love is very good, it'll probably work again. But it probably doesn't get Rodgers ring #2.

Is that your “big spin” on all of this?

Build or continue a system that does “Just good enough”?

Ignore glaring needs and hang your HOF QB out to dry?

Undermine your HOF QB by waisting valuable capital to send some signal by trading up in the 1st to get an “Average Prospect”?

This is LOSER SHIT!!!!

[pbmax]

It was 8% in 2010

That would be like AR making 16m/yr right now but in his absolute prime. That was a nice contract.

The point being that it wasn't a cheap rookie deal anymore.

[pbmax]

Is that your “big spin” on all of this?

Build or continue a system that does “Just good enough”?

Ignore glaring needs and hang your HOF QB out to dry?

Undermine your HOF QB by waisting valuable capital to send some signal by trading up in the 1st to get an “Average Prospect”?

This is LOSER SHIT!!!!

You let me know when the Cowboys win a playoff game again, OK?

[GB-Brandon]

This is epic. Pretty much everyone(Not Just Here or on some other forum) had WR as a huge need and getting Rodgers more WEAPONS a priority. Even the people who love drafting defense early every year wanted some receivers in the middle rounds. The 2020 draft was advertised as one of the best receiving classes of all time and maybe the deepest ever. Gute didn’t draft one receiver in the 2019 draft. The Packer offense sputtered all year on 3rd down. Sound like the perfect opportunity?

Heeelllllll nooooooooo!!! Gute didn’t turn 10 picks into even one WR pick. This is unacceptable. People can spin this all they want but this just obviously shows an unwillingness to do what was necessary to win more games and be successful. This is absurd.

Super Bowl? Lol. This team isn’t winning shit this year. In fact there is gonna be a blow up with the force of a bomb. This will not end well and Gute has made sure of that.

[Zool]

So, would you say you’re happy with the draft?

[GB-Brandon]

Someone please explain to me how we addressed our WR position sufficiently?

Or is Jordan Love gonna magically make all these throws Rodgers missed(cause he is washed up)?

[Zool]

Someone please explain to me how we addressed our WR position sufficiently?

Or is Jordan Love gonna magically make all these throws Rodgers missed(cause he is washed up)?

Holy shit. There is literally nothing anyone here can do about it. You’ve been bitching for 3 straight days. Go get a snack and relax. You have no control over this situation.

[Bretsky]

Yes, very tough to win 13 two years in a row.

Do we win 10 next year?

Over under in Vegas is 9.5; I would bet on ten but like Blackjack I'd be sitting at the minumum bet table and banking on several pattycake wins in our division as a major factor

[Bretsky]

I did find great humor everytime the ESPN/NFL network guys had to bring up GB's entire draft and struggled to say something nice about it in cheerleader mode. They basically said we got a guy who has a strong enough arm to make all the throws and a RB with some talent to contribute

[GB-Brandon]

The more conspiratorial minded PackerRats have convinced themselves that Gute is throwing in the towel on the Rodgers era.

Faced with the difficulty of moving on from a superstar QB, that he has decided, apparently within the last 3-4 months, to hang Rodgers out to dry, draft for the future and hope he gets the message before next offseason so they can get to the "real" plan sooner rather than later.

You can tell they desperately want you to believe this fiction because they repeat it during everyday conversations when you might think the subject is more mundane:

Message Board The Broncos traded up, they aren't rebuilding like the Packers are.

Take Out I'll take the #25 chicken, 1 pint of rice plus 2 orders of Crab Rangoon and by the way, how do you feel the Packers rebuild is going so far?

Family Chat Mom, Dad, everyone here is fine. Glad to know you are too. How does Dad feel about the Packers rebuilding?

The fact that they didn’t draft one WR in the entire draft isn’t some “Wild Conspiracy”. Either is the fact that they traded up in the 1st round to find his replacement. Either is the fact that every offensive pick fits a more Tennessee Titans style offensive mold.

So yeah. “Mom, Dad, Everyome it’s OVER”

Geez. Can’t Believe how naive some fans are. Trust me, This is not something I enjoy being right about.

[ThunderDan]

Holy shit. There is literally nothing anyone here can do about it. You’ve been bitching for 3 straight days. Go get a snack and relax. You have no control over this situation.

I am not in Brandon’s boat but this is the first draft I remember where I am not excited about any of our picks.

We needed to address WR and ILB. We moved up in the first and could have gotten Queen, Mims or Higgins. But didn’t.

[GB-Brandon]

I did find great humor everytime the ESPN/NFL network guys had to bring up GB's entire draft and struggled to say something nice about it in cheerleader mode. They basically said we got a guy who has a strong enough arm to make all the throws and a RB with some talent to contribute

I’ve never been so happy to have a vacation cancelled.

Dillon pick i liked but not in 2nd. The rest of it was a major disappointment and blah blah blah.

[George Cumby]

So, would you say you’re happy with the draft?

ROFLMAO.

[GB-Brandon]

Laugh all you want. The only Fucken “REAL CONSPIRACY” I see is the Packers ever winning a Super Bowl again in the near future.

“Mom, Dad, Everyone”

[GB-Brandon]

I am not in Brandon’s boat but this is the first draft I remember where I am not excited about any of our picks.

We needed to address WR and ILB. We moved up in the first and could have gotten Queen, Mims or Higgins. But didn’t.

Well you kinda are in my boat cause I would have no objection over any of those picks with the way the board shaped up.

[call_me_ishmael]

all I know is they're either full of shit lying saying that the day 2 picks were the highest left on their board....or they really need to clean house and fire the scouting department. one dummy quoted tried comparing Dillon to Barkley. so I imagine both things I just said are true.

I thought that was silly too, but then I looked into the numbers and he is 97th percentile for SPARQ so not totally crazy. Most of it due to size.

[mraynrand]

This is not something I enjoy being right about.

you could have fooled me. You come across as happy as a pig rolling in shit. But here's the thing. You're so invested in this going south, how are you going to handle it if you're wrong? Because right now, you're just guessing. And so are all the talking heads who read the same stuff you did. Packers need a great WR, a great ILB, and a OT otherwise the universe will end. But maybe not. And you have to wait and see. But you've put yourself on the side where you almost have to hope they fail. Enjoy.

[Zool]

I am not in Brandon’s boat but this is the first draft I remember where I am not excited about any of our picks.

We needed to address WR and ILB. We moved up in the first and could have gotten Queen, Mims or Higgins. But didn’t.

I’m with you. 3 lineman in a row is stupid. The difference is, neither you or I are stamping our feet like children.

[George Cumby]

^ If he’s wrong, like the numerology guy, whose name escapes me atm, he will disappear.

[GB-Brandon]

you could have fooled me. You come across as happy as a pig rolling in shit. But here's the thing. You're so invested in this going south, how are you going to handle it if you're wrong? Because right now, you're just guessing. And so are all the talking heads who read the same stuff you did. Packers need a great WR, a great ILB, and a OT otherwise the universe will end. But maybe not. And you have to wait and see. But you've put yourself on the side where you almost have to hope they fail. Enjoy.

No No No. I follow this team as close as a beat reporter. I attend training camp. This is my hobby. I’ve been saying they needed “receivers” for about three years now. This is not a hidden secret. These guys for the most part outside of Adams can’t win one on one. I’ve seen it with my own eyes. No QB is gonna make them great or prosper with them. Not Tom Brady and not Aaron Rodgers and not nobody.

Their EVIL. They are the ones that ignore the position over and over. They are the one’s that act smarter then everyone else. If I was calling the shots it would be a track meet at Lambeau. A Ferrari with Snow Tires. Don’t get it twisted.

And with all this I would be happy to be wrong and eat crow however what I am witnessing with Packers is a form of INSANITY where eventually it will not be fun anymore. Not because I don’t love the Packers but because I can’t support there Insanity and Evil behavior and their dysfunctional behavior.

Like I said earlier season ticket waits lists are about to plummet. It’s gonna be a bad economy and people aren’t gonna continue to line up to pay for a shity product with less spending $. Lambeau or no Lambeau. “Love Jokes and songs” will get old very quickly with a loser.

[mraynrand]

Ya lost me for good at “their EVIL”

[GB-Brandon]

Ya lost me for good at “their EVIL”

Years of 3-13 and 4-12 will lose many.

Remember that.

[GB-Brandon]

Don’t hate the Player Hate the Game.

I’m not the crazy asshole pulling the levers for all this bullshit and putting a storied franchise in the Toilet!!

[GB-Brandon]

Please trade him

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2888484-peter-king-aaron-rodgers-is-pissed-off-after-packers-drafted-jordan-love

He doesn’t deserve this. He is better then all this dysfunction!!!

Let him go.

[Zool]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0MK7qz13bU

Be like Elsa

[Fritz]

A historically talented WR class + Green Bay desperately needs WR talent + no WR selected = mass confusion.

The Jordan Love selection's impact is unknown and potentially significant. I'm not arguing that pick. But the rest? I hope it's in the vein of a classic TT draft where I have no idea who any of these players are, he selects none that I want, and it ends up being among the best drafts in the league. But looking at it now, this is confusing and disheartening. I think we needed WRs. Gute & M4 apparently didn't agree or didn't think the value was there. In a historic draft, how can the value not be there?

Only two skill positions taken, and neither of them have the primary skill set of catching the ball. Statistics say Rodgers' receivers dropped significantly more passes than anyone else, and we didn't get someone to make that instantly better?

I'm an armchair GM (read: not even a scout), but this draft puts my benefit of the doubt on thin ice. I just don't know what to think.


This is a superb post and absolutely sums up my thinking about this draft, Gute, and the direction of the organization. Well-written, too.

[Joemailman]

Years of 3-13 and 4-12 will lose many.

Remember that.

So your theory is that they're going to go from 13-3 to 3-13 because they didn't draft the guys you wanted. Got it.

[pbmax]

The plan is to apparently keep on trucking in the short term on offense. Take a little load off Jones, replace Williams with someone more explosive and to perhaps run a bit more play action and 2 TE (though I don't think you can pencil in the Cincy TE for a lot of snaps yet).

People keep yelping about how WR was the #1 need. I might even have posted something along those lines. But the actual #1 priority from a talent standpoint, before the strength of the draft was revealed, was ILB.

They replaced Martinez with Kirksey, who, if healthy, should be an upgrade. But that is potentially a big if, and plan B looks more awful than last year. But help is not forthcoming on the D line. So the defensive improvement will come from the coaches getting a better scheme out there and better execution. Not what I was hoping for.

Normally, this is where I'd start joking about the second year jump guys. Or third year WR. But with no offseason, its anyone's guess what happens.

I am glad Gute seems to be listening to his coach about what kind of offense he wants to run. But I am not sure the team is better right now.

I said it in another thread and Smidgeon and Fritz talk about it above. I really hope this is a Ted draft where three starters emerge where you did not see them on draft weekend. We'll see.

[mraynrand]

Be like Elsa

No

[pbmax]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EWfySioXYAA8CXg?format=jpg&name=900x900

[GB-Brandon]

So your theory is that they're going to go from 13-3 to 3-13 because they didn't draft the guys you wanted. Got it.

Sure, I had some favorites but this reasoning cuts much deeper then that and more into the situation as a whole and not addressing team needs while sending signals of a philosophy change.

1. The Aaron Rodgers situation- Whether you think Jordan Love is a future HOF QB or not this was not handled correctly. Trading up in the 1st round to get this guy was just ridiculous. This whole “Rodgers Plays Better Pissed off” has worn. I’m quite certain Rodgers would play better with a top receiver then being pissed off because the front office chopped him off at the knees yet once again. Love offers us NOTHING for probably at least 2-3 years on top of all this. These are the type of “Development Picks” that can usually be found in mid-rounds. There are rumblings that Rodgers is already upset. This is the worst direction Gute could of went. I really thought there was no way the Packers could screw this draft up and they proved dynamically they could. Rodgers should not only be pissed but he should be DEMANDING a trade. This situation will only get hotter as we move forward. It will be far worse then the Favre situation because it is a different situation when you consider Rodgers isn’t threatening retirement, the overall state of the team and social media, media coverage that will magnify everything.

2. Now that we try to move past that the Packers have done very little to address glaring needs. By addition and subtraction the roster is not as good as it was lets say after the Niners game. Not only did the Packers lose a key piece at RT and ILB but they did very little to replace them other then bringing in cheaper versions that both have injury concerns. Then at WR they “stayed stubborn” continuing to ignore it with only adding another cheap injury prone player. The D-line is not set up at this point to be any better. There appears to also be a need at slot corner. Holes, holes and more holes.

3. So now you have a team that will have some players and fans questioning the vision and direction. It will be interesting to see the overall “buy in” with what basically cancels out the chance of Aaron Rodgers ever winning a Super Bowl again with the Packers. Let’s be honest here and understand that this organization was 2-14, 3-13 without Aaron Rodgers and it was proven every time he has been injured. Without him during these times the pathetic roster building was exposed for all too see. The sum of all the parts together equaled just a very untalented football team. This is where the comparisons start with some of those bad Cleveland Browns teams. For many seasons we were those very same bad Cleveland Browns teams with Aaron Rodgers being the ultimate equalizer in games against flat out better teams and willing us to 10-6 over and over.

4. So the cold winters in Green Bay are about to get colder. Evil has arrived at our door step with a front office that would rather try to look smarter then everyone else opposed to just doing what’s right. This team couldn’t win without Rodgers for the past decade and they have done absolutely zero to say they can do it now. It obviously has to play out but my confidence level in regards to the Packers is at an all time ever low.

[beveaux1]

Our GM's comments reflect exactly what I think happened during the draft. His plan was to draft one of the 5 or 6 WRs that had a 1st round grade and could provide immediate help. I think the back-up plan (no pun intended) was to pick Love if he was not selected earlier in the round.

I think the plan for the 2nd round was to draft a WR with a 2nd level grade that could be integrated more slowly into the offense. By the time we were on the clock, all of those receivers were gone. Our GM chose to pick someone that would provide immediate help to the offense at a position that does not need years to develop. So, he drafted a RB.

By the time we got to the 3rd round, he didn't have a WR on his board that he felt could provide any more help to the team than those already on the roster. He chose a TE that they liked to compete with Tonyan and Sternberger.

The problem was that they used a 4th round pick to move up to select Love. That meant that they couldn't move in the 2nd to choose Mims (if that was their choice) due to needing depth at ILB and OL.

The net result was a draft that doesn't look very good on paper at addressing our most immediate needs and probably doesn't make us a lot stronger in the short term. It may (big guess here) have strong upside in the longer term.

[beveaux1]

I don't think the draft was a signal to Rodgers that we don't want him anymore or that his QB play was shoddy the past year. It was an acknowledgement that he's a 36 year old QB and we have to plan for the future.

I'm also of the opinion that ILB was not really on their list as a 1st round need. I don't think OT was on their list either unless one of the top couple of OTs fell to them.

Offense was the need and they think they addressed it the best they could.

[pbmax]

Trading up in the second round became much harder when they decided they needed to move up to get Love.

[Willard]

Our GM's comments reflect exactly what I think happened during the draft. His plan was to draft one of the 5 or 6 WRs that had a 1st round grade and could provide immediate help. I think the back-up plan (no pun intended) was to pick Love if he was not selected earlier in the round.

I think the plan for the 2nd round was to draft a WR with a 2nd level grade that could be integrated more slowly into the offense. By the time we were on the clock, all of those receivers were gone. Our GM chose to pick someone that would provide immediate help to the offense at a position that does not need years to develop. So, he drafted a RB.

By the time we got to the 3rd round, he didn't have a WR on his board that he felt could provide any more help to the team than those already on the roster. He chose a TE that they liked to compete with Tonyan and Sternberger.

The problem was that they used a 4th round pick to move up to select Love. That meant that they couldn't move in the 2nd to choose Mims (if that was their choice) due to needing depth at ILB and OL.

The net result was a draft that doesn't look very good on paper at addressing our most immediate needs and probably doesn't make us a lot stronger in the short term. It may (big guess here) have strong upside in the longer term.
Yep. This happened. I agree with this rat.

[beveaux1]

One other point...ILB is not going to be their need as long as they run a 3-4. We were never going to draft Murray or Queen.

If we ran a 4-3, the MLB would be a much higher priority. It would be equal to OLB. The ILB to a 3-4 team on defense is equal to OG on offense. I believe their philosophy would be to draft an ILB or OG with a first round pick only if that player was exceptional. Fill in the blank for what OGs and ILBs have been drafted that would qualify. RBs are much the same. You can expend a 2nd on those positions, but usually not a 1st.

A QB is the crème de la crème. That's a generational pick. If they see the need for a QB and they have one on their board that has not been picked, they'll jump through hoops to get him, even if it's one or two years too early.

We've been saying for many years that picking at the bottom of the round leads to a gradual loss of talent on the roster. I think this draft points that out pretty dramatically.

[GB-Brandon]

Our GM's comments reflect exactly what I think happened during the draft. His plan was to draft one of the 5 or 6 WRs that had a 1st round grade and could provide immediate help. I think the back-up plan (no pun intended) was to pick Love if he was not selected earlier in the round.

I think the plan for the 2nd round was to draft a WR with a 2nd level grade that could be integrated more slowly into the offense. By the time we were on the clock, all of those receivers were gone. Our GM chose to pick someone that would provide immediate help to the offense at a position that does not need years to develop. So, he drafted a RB.

By the time we got to the 3rd round, he didn't have a WR on his board that he felt could provide any more help to the team than those already on the roster. He chose a TE that they liked to compete with Tonyan and Sternberger.

The problem was that they used a 4th round pick to move up to select Love. That meant that they couldn't move in the 2nd to choose Mims (if that was their choice) due to needing depth at ILB and OL.

The net result was a draft that doesn't look very good on paper at addressing our most immediate needs and probably doesn't make us a lot stronger in the short term. It may (big guess here) have strong upside in the longer term.

To me that’s bullshit if that’s his thinking. He is constantly putting the situation on the back burner. You mean to tell me with 10 draft picks in the best position group in the entire draft he couldn’t of done anything?

Nonsense. Have you not seen our receivers in action? The guys available weren’t any better?

Lol. Oh man.

[beveaux1]

I also think this draft was very high on blue chip WRs. Instead of the usual 3 or 4, there were 5 or 6 that could provide immediate help. Once you got past the top 6, I think it was more normalized. If there were usually 3 or 4 in the 2nd tier, I think this draft had the same number.

In other words, I don't think you could make a WR pick in the 3rd or 4th round that had a 1st round grade.

We were picking 30th and every other team that had WR on their list of needs knew that this was a draft with more blue chip WR prospects than usual. They selected them and we couldn't. Bottom line.

[GB-Brandon]

I also think this draft was very high on blue chip WRs. Instead of the usual 3 or 4, there were 5 or 6 that could provide immediate help. Once you got past the top 6, I think it was more normalized. If there were usually 3 or 4 in the 2nd tier, I think this draft had the same number.

In other words, I don't think you could make a WR pick in the 3rd or 4th round that had a 1st round grade.

We were picking 30th and every other team that had WR on their list of needs knew that this was a draft with more blue chip WR prospects than usual. They selected them and we couldn't. Bottom line.

Actually “The Bottom Line” is there were receivers that would of immensely helped this team. The Packers had 10 draft picks. Drafting 30 didn’t Fucken stop them from trading up for a QB. So getting a top receiver obviously wasn’t a priority.

The players were there and the Packers failed to convert. They got completely abused on the draft board. That’s the “Bottom Line”

[mraynrand]

Our GM's comments reflect exactly what I think happened during the draft. His plan was to draft one of the 5 or 6 WRs that had a 1st round grade and could provide immediate help. I think the back-up plan (no pun intended) was to pick Love if he was not selected earlier in the round.

I think the plan for the 2nd round was to draft a WR with a 2nd level grade that could be integrated more slowly into the offense. By the time we were on the clock, all of those receivers were gone. Our GM chose to pick someone that would provide immediate help to the offense at a position that does not need years to develop. So, he drafted a RB.

By the time we got to the 3rd round, he didn't have a WR on his board that he felt could provide any more help to the team than those already on the roster. He chose a TE that they liked to compete with Tonyan and Sternberger.

The problem was that they used a 4th round pick to move up to select Love. That meant that they couldn't move in the 2nd to choose Mims (if that was their choice) due to needing depth at ILB and OL.

The net result was a draft that doesn't look very good on paper at addressing our most immediate needs and probably doesn't make us a lot stronger in the short term. It may (big guess here) have strong upside in the longer term.

Smart, as usual.

[Willard]

To me that’s bullshit if that’s his thinking. He is constantly putting the situation on the back burner. You mean to tell me with 10 draft picks in the best position group in the entire draft he couldn’t of done anything?

Nonsense. Have you not seen our receivers in action? The guys available weren’t any better?

Lol. Oh man.

6 WRs were gone in first 25 picks. Who would you have picked at #30: Higgins, Pittman, someone else? Obviously Gute picked from his board rather than position of need. It is frustrating for coming season, but not unusual for a GM. 6 more WRs were off the board by time Gute picked again. What’s your pick at 62? Once you get to later rounds the prospects look a lot like the players on their team. I imagine the first 2 rounds didn’t play out to Plan A. I wish the Pack hadn’t moved up and sacrificed a 4th to pick a player that won’t immediately help—but I understand what played out was a worst case scenario regarding WR picks ahead of the Packers picks at 30 and 62..

[mraynrand]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EWfySioXYAA8CXg?format=jpg&name=900x900

A bit of a startling quote to me, mostly because I don’t think you want to tell guys you drafted that you really wanted other people.

[mraynrand]

6 WRs were gone in first 25 picks. Who would you have picked at #30: Higgins, Pittman, someone else? Obviously Gute picked from his board rather than position of need. It is frustrating for coming season, but not unusual for a GM. 6 more WRs were off the board by time Gute picked again. What’s your pick at 62? Once you get to later rounds the prospects look a lot like the players on their team. I imagine the first 2 rounds didn’t play out to Plan A. I wish the Pack hadn’t moved up and sacrificed a 4th to pick a player that won’t immediately help—but I understand what played out was a worst case scenario regarding WR picks ahead of the Packers picks at 30 and 62..

If what Gute is saying is true, then they really stuck with round value as opposed to trading down from 30. (Maybe they couldn’t get a good trade)

[mraynrand]

A bit of a startling quote to me, mostly because I don’t think you want to tell guys you drafted that you really wanted other people.

Maybe this is intended to placate Rodgers and other Packer hysterics?

[texaspackerbacker]

Our GM's comments reflect exactly what I think happened during the draft. His plan was to draft one of the 5 or 6 WRs that had a 1st round grade and could provide immediate help. I think the back-up plan (no pun intended) was to pick Love if he was not selected earlier in the round.

I think the plan for the 2nd round was to draft a WR with a 2nd level grade that could be integrated more slowly into the offense. By the time we were on the clock, all of those receivers were gone. Our GM chose to pick someone that would provide immediate help to the offense at a position that does not need years to develop. So, he drafted a RB.

By the time we got to the 3rd round, he didn't have a WR on his board that he felt could provide any more help to the team than those already on the roster. He chose a TE that they liked to compete with Tonyan and Sternberger.

The problem was that they used a 4th round pick to move up to select Love. That meant that they couldn't move in the 2nd to choose Mims (if that was their choice) due to needing depth at ILB and OL.

The net result was a draft that doesn't look very good on paper at addressing our most immediate needs and probably doesn't make us a lot stronger in the short term. It may (big guess here) have strong upside in the longer term.

This post makes a fair amount of sense in amongst a mass of bullshit, idiocy, and negativity in this and other threads. I was thinking too, we either had really shitty luck or we got outmaneuvered - take your pick - by having guys we wanted get grabbed shortly before we picked.

I still don't like picking a QB in the first or any early round, but apparently they saw a lot of potential in Love. And yeah, it's pretty damn hard to figure or justify the trade up and throwing away the 4th rounder, as none of the bypassed teams likely would have taken him.

Some are saying Deguarra is a helluva lot better than the experts thought ....... I guess we'll see. I didn't think we needed a TE either, but the guys who took us to 13-3 over the expectations of the naysayers apparently did think so.

Some of those guys toward the end also were positions where it seems like we had no need, but they also seem like they could be late draft gems.

What's done is done. Panicking is stupid. About all we can do is hope for the best and trust the people who by skill or luck, who knows, brought us such a good record last season.

[Willard]

Maybe this is intended to placate Rodgers and other Packer hysterics?

Probably. It always seems kind of disingenuous when every GM talks about their pick as being exactly who they wanted all along. If Gute pulled out that answer for the Love pick, I am certain Rodgers would really feel ticked off (more so than he already is).

[GB-Brandon]

6 WRs were gone in first 25 picks. Who would you have picked at #30: Higgins, Pittman, someone else? Obviously Gute picked from his board rather than position of need. It is frustrating for coming season, but not unusual for a GM. 6 more WRs were off the board by time Gute picked again. What’s your pick at 62? Once you get to later rounds the prospects look a lot like the players on their team. I imagine the first 2 rounds didn’t play out to Plan A. I wish the Pack hadn’t moved up and sacrificed a 4th to pick a player that won’t immediately help—but I understand what played out was a worst case scenario regarding WR picks ahead of the Packers picks at 30 and 62..

They could of gotten almost any receiver they wanted in the draft as they had plenty of ammunition. Aiyuk went one spot before JL. Even with that Mimms and Higgins were on the board at 30. They also could of traded up a few spots in second and got Mims there. There were several other receiver options throughout the rest of the draft which either the Packers let slide or were unwilling to move up to get.

Once again people can’t have it both ways. On one hand it’s okay to get aggressive to go out and trade up for a back up QB in 1st round but we can’t show the same aggressive mentality to get a massive need addressed at receiver?

See, that’s the INSANITY of it.

[GB-Brandon]

Probably. It always seems kind of disingenuous when every GM talks about their pick as being exactly who they wanted all along. If Gute pulled out that answer for the Love pick, I am certain Rodgers would really feel ticked off (more so than he already is).


And I don’t pick at 62. I trade up and get Mims but it wouldn’t of ever gotten to that point because I would of “Left Love alone” and beat the Niners to Aiyuk!!!

[GB-Brandon]

Aiyuk and Dillon after round 2 would of been amazing.

[pbmax]

If what Gute is saying is true, then they really stuck with round value as opposed to trading down from 30. (Maybe they couldn’t get a good trade)

I just hope it wasn't a stab up to get the last 1st round value. From a draft tactics perspective, I'd rather him think (even if ultimately proven wrong) he was the second best QB prospect rather than the 4th.

[Bretsky]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EWfySioXYAA8CXg?format=jpg&name=900x900


My interpretation; Gute got outmatched; he's not a kind of fell like the board fell kind of guy.

Send him to San Francisco for the next three months and have Gutebag take lessons.

[pbmax]

What was the San Fran trade exactly? Anyone remember?

[Bretsky]

The plan is to apparently keep on trucking in the short term on offense. Take a little load off Jones, replace Williams with someone more explosive and to perhaps run a bit more play action and 2 TE (though I don't think you can pencil in the Cincy TE for a lot of snaps yet).

People keep yelping about how WR was the #1 need. I might even have posted something along those lines. But the actual #1 priority from a talent standpoint, before the strength of the draft was revealed, was ILB.

They replaced Martinez with Kirksey, who, if healthy, should be an upgrade. But that is potentially a big if, and plan B looks more awful than last year. But help is not forthcoming on the D line. So the defensive improvement will come from the coaches getting a better scheme out there and better execution. Not what I was hoping for.

Normally, this is where I'd start joking about the second year jump guys. Or third year WR. But with no offseason, its anyone's guess what happens.

I am glad Gute seems to be listening to his coach about what kind of offense he wants to run. But I am not sure the team is better right now.

I said it in another thread and Smidgeon and Fritz talk about it above. I really hope this is a Ted draft where three starters emerge where you did not see them on draft weekend. We'll see.



Let's call a SPADE A SPADE

IF ILB was our #1 weakness we Failed to address that "IN THE DRAFT" and could have in round one
IF WR was our #1 weakness epic failure

[Bretsky]

Our GM's comments reflect exactly what I think happened during the draft. His plan was to draft one of the 5 or 6 WRs that had a 1st round grade and could provide immediate help. I think the back-up plan (no pun intended) was to pick Love if he was not selected earlier in the round.

I think the plan for the 2nd round was to draft a WR with a 2nd level grade that could be integrated more slowly into the offense. By the time we were on the clock, all of those receivers were gone. Our GM chose to pick someone that would provide immediate help to the offense at a position that does not need years to develop. So, he drafted a RB.

By the time we got to the 3rd round, he didn't have a WR on his board that he felt could provide any more help to the team than those already on the roster. He chose a TE that they liked to compete with Tonyan and Sternberger.

The problem was that they used a 4th round pick to move up to select Love. That meant that they couldn't move in the 2nd to choose Mims (if that was their choice) due to needing depth at ILB and OL.

The net result was a draft that doesn't look very good on paper at addressing our most immediate needs and probably doesn't make us a lot stronger in the short term. It may (big guess here) have strong upside in the longer term.





You Mapped out Epic Failure

In round two everybody knew, the Jets, just two picks ahead of us wanted a WR

In round three the Raven's wanted a WR and an easy trade up to get Duverney was there.

Gutebag was outfoxed

[Bretsky]

Trading up in the second round became much harder when they decided they needed to move up to get Love.



3 spots; what would that have taken, a 5th ?

[Willard]

They could of gotten almost any receiver they wanted in the draft as they had plenty of ammunition. Aiyuk went one spot before JL. Even with that Mimms and Higgins were on the board at 30. They also could of traded up a few spots in second and got Mims there. There were several other receiver options throughout the rest of the draft which either the Packers let slide or were unwilling to move up to get.

Once again people can’t have it both ways. On one hand it’s okay to get aggressive to go out and trade up for a back up QB in 1st round but we can’t show the same aggressive mentality to get a massive need addressed at receiver?

See, that’s the INSANITY of it.
I was hoping either Jefferson or Aiyuk would drop to the Pack. MN took JJ, then traded #25 to SF who took Aiyuk. Perhaps the Pack thought they had Aiyuk at 26 until MN screwed them? After the top 6 were gone, Gute didn’t see a Round One worthy WR to pick. Maybe he should have traded back. Maybe he tried to trade back but couldn’t and ended up taking BPA regardless of 2020 need.

[texaspackerbacker]

A lot of people in here and elsewhere whined before the draft (and chronically) about the terrible "needs" the Packers had/have. I didn't see it that way, and apparently neither did the powers that be. I did think we needed a speed WR; Apparently they didn't even see that as a need. We certainly didn't need quantity of WRs, and we didn't need a high-drafted ILB, given Pettine's style of D and the use made of Packer ILBs. We may have already done an upgrade before the draft at D Line, and we did sort of fix things in the O Line in the draft - again, I can only conclude, maybe our brain trust knows something we'all in here don't.

[Bretsky]

I also think this draft was very high on blue chip WRs. Instead of the usual 3 or 4, there were 5 or 6 that could provide immediate help. Once you got past the top 6, I think it was more normalized. If there were usually 3 or 4 in the 2nd tier, I think this draft had the same number.

In other words, I don't think you could make a WR pick in the 3rd or 4th round that had a 1st round grade.

We were picking 30th and every other team that had WR on their list of needs knew that this was a draft with more blue chip WR prospects than usual. They selected them and we couldn't. Bottom line.



There were still top tier WR"s at 30; a couple went right after. And they could have picked up a 4th by trading down and still got one. As time goes no we'll see how this works for Gutebag

The only difference between how GB Brandon and I feel is I don't think we'd taking steps back to 4-12. I think Rodgers stays here two years and guides us to the norm. Slip into playoffs, get bounced, and end up with another late round pick.

But I have no faith in Gutebag going forward. Last year's draft was sub par and my expectations for this years draft are not high either. I don't have SB expectations and at minimal my hoped are greatly decreased.

From the start I didn't want Gutebad; still don't.

But I am a football fan and will be cheering for a lot of teams and my Badgers next year. So i"m diversified and while my heart is with GB my expectations are lowered and I'll be more of a footbal fan as opposed to a Packer fan

[Bretsky]

6 WRs were gone in first 25 picks. Who would you have picked at #30: Higgins, Pittman, someone else? Obviously Gute picked from his board rather than position of need. It is frustrating for coming season, but not unusual for a GM. 6 more WRs were off the board by time Gute picked again. What’s your pick at 62? Once you get to later rounds the prospects look a lot like the players on their team. I imagine the first 2 rounds didn’t play out to Plan A. I wish the Pack hadn’t moved up and sacrificed a 4th to pick a player that won’t immediately help—but I understand what played out was a worst case scenario regarding WR picks ahead of the Packers picks at 30 and 62..


Higgina/Pittman/Mims were all projected to go 1/2 .

[texaspackerbacker]

hahahaha Bretsky, you pretty much split the difference between Brandon's idiocy and reality.

[beveaux1]

There's much speculation on what ranking a prospect has. If you look at "experts" opinions for the top ten at any position group, the opinions of different "experts" vary widely.

The only "expert" that mattered in this case was the one that was doing the selecting. My guess, based on whom our GM chose, is that Higgins, Pittman, Shenault, Jefferson, and Mims were not given 1st round grades. That is not to say that they weren't better than some of our present roster, even in his opinion. What it says is that Love was a better pick than those WRs in the opinion of the GM. He thought that was a better value pick. Love had a better grade, probably substantially better, on his board.

It's possible that after Shenault or Hamler was taken, he didn't feel that there was a WR he could take that would be substantially better than the 3rd WR on our roster. If that's the case, there was no reason to use a later round pick to move up and select a WR. Certainly not if he's trying to improve the offense in the short term.

The argument you can make is that, in your opinion, Jefferson or Mims was worth moving up. They are substantially better than Lazard or Funchess. Better even than the new RB that will be splitting carries with Jones.

That isn't what the GM thought and he picked the RB.

[Willard]

There's much speculation on what ranking a prospect has. If you look at "experts" opinions for the top ten at any position group, the opinions of different "experts" vary widely.

The only "expert" that mattered in this case was the one that was doing the selecting. My guess, based on whom our GM chose, is that Higgins, Pittman, Shenault, Jefferson, and Mims were not given 1st round grades. That is not to say that they weren't better than some of our present roster, even in his opinion. What it says is that Love was a better pick than those WRs in the opinion of the GM. He thought that was a better value pick. Love had a better grade, probably substantially better, on his board.

It's possible that after Shenault or Hamler was taken, he didn't feel that there was a WR he could take that would be substantially better than the 3rd WR on our roster. If that's the case, there was no reason to use a later round pick to move up and select a WR. Certainly not if he's trying to improve the offense in the short term.

The argument you can make is that, in your opinion, Jefferson or Mims was worth moving up. They are substantially better than Lazard or Funchess. Better even than the new RB that will be splitting carries with Jones.

That isn't what the GM thought and he picked the RB.

Yep. What this rat says.

[Bretsky]

hahahaha Bretsky, you pretty much split the difference between Brandon's idiocy and reality.


I would argue that claiming we have resolved all of the weaknesses that prohibited us from being an alite team last year is idoicy; and I'm the reality Tex, I'm the realty :))))))

[pbmax]

3 spots; what would that have taken, a 5th ?

Why do I have to do all the math here :D

Work it out for yourself: https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/games/draft-pick-value.php

[Bretsky]

There's much speculation on what ranking a prospect has. If you look at "experts" opinions for the top ten at any position group, the opinions of different "experts" vary widely.

The only "expert" that mattered in this case was the one that was doing the selecting. My guess, based on whom our GM chose, is that Higgins, Pittman, Shenault, Jefferson, and Mims were not given 1st round grades. That is not to say that they weren't better than some of our present roster, even in his opinion. What it says is that Love was a better pick than those WRs in the opinion of the GM. He thought that was a better value pick. Love had a better grade, probably substantially better, on his board.

It's possible that after Shenault or Hamler was taken, he didn't feel that there was a WR he could take that would be substantially better than the 3rd WR on our roster. If that's the case, there was no reason to use a later round pick to move up and select a WR. Certainly not if he's trying to improve the offense in the short term.

The argument you can make is that, in your opinion, Jefferson or Mims was worth moving up. They are substantially better than Lazard or Funchess. Better even than the new RB that will be splitting carries with Jones.

That isn't what the GM thought and he picked the RB.


Not going to argue your logic on point one. My "guess" is Love had a 1st round grade and we picked about where he should have. But if Gutebag valued Love as having a 1st and 4th round value to me that's out there.

Regarding not valuing the picks as being better than our 3rd, WR, well time will tell I'd say that's gross incompetence and they were better than our number 2.

I have less and less faith in Gutebag's ability to run a draft. Ditto for last year. Thank God he spends money in free agency !!!!!!!!

[Bretsky]

Why do I have to do all the math here :D

Work it out for yourself: https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/games/draft-pick-value.php



Casue I've never used the chart !! :)))))

Looks like a 5th and 7th.

[GB-Brandon]

What was the San Fran trade exactly? Anyone remember?

Their trade was “urgency, urgency, urgency” and “Let’s win as many Super Bowls while we have all these pieces in place”

[Willard]

SF gave MN picks 31, 117 and 176 to move up to 25–where they took Aiyuk.
GB gave MIA picks 30 and 137(?) to move up to 26–where they found Twu Wuv.

[Zool]

I would argue that claiming we have resolved all of the weaknesses that prohibited us from being an alite team last year is idoicy; and I'm the reality Tex, I'm the realty :))))))

Reality is, you have no say over who gets drafted and you have no idea how they rank players.

[Bretsky]

Reality is, you have no say over who gets drafted and you have no idea how they rank players.


Reality is that is why this is a form where posters should be encouraged to express their thoughts and debate . And that is why we're here sunshine :)

[texaspackerbacker]

I would argue that claiming we have resolved all of the weaknesses that prohibited us from being an alite team last year is idoicy; and I'm the reality Tex, I'm the realty :))))))

You don't consider 13-3 or 14-4 "elite"? How many teams were more "elite" by the most objective standard, record? The answer must be two since we drafted 30th. I was as pissed off as anybody with the draft. In the short term at least, we may not have improved things much or at all. I also doubt anybody below us clearly passed us up. Despite all the idiotic crap from panicky fools in here, we still have the GOAT QB, and despite a lot of crap being spewed, there is no clear evidence he is significantly less than he has always been. That fact alone puts us on the doorstep of the top. We will need decent Luck injury-wise and other ways again, but "reality" is that there's no reason for things to be worse than last season and some chance things will actually get better.

[pbmax]

SF gave MN picks 31, 117 and 176 to move up to 25–where they took Aiyuk.
GB gave MIA picks 30 and 137(?) to move up to 26–where they found Twu Wuv.

Answer:
A is 49ers, B is Dolphins

Trade Totals
Trader A Gives Value: 682
Trader B Gives Value: 720

Gain/Loss %
Trader A: +5.57%
Trader B: -5.28%


Answer:
A is Packers
B is Dolphins

Trade Totals
Trader A Gives Value: 657.5
Trader B Gives Value: 700

Gain/Loss %
Trader A: +6.46%
Trader B: -6.07%

Packers wouldn't trade with Vikes, so it would have to have been the Saints or Patriots.


http://movie-dude.co.uk/Peter%20Cook%20%20The%20Princess%20Bride%20(1987). jpg

[GB-Brandon]

You don't consider 13-3 or 14-4 "elite"? How many teams were more "elite" by the most objective standard, record? The answer must be two since we drafted 30th. I was as pissed off as anybody with the draft. In the short term at least, we may not have improved things much or at all. I also doubt anybody below us clearly passed us up. Despite all the idiotic crap from panicky fools in here, we still have the GOAT QB, and despite a lot of crap being spewed, there is no clear evidence he is significantly less than he has always been. That fact alone puts us on the doorstep of the top. We will need decent Luck injury-wise and other ways again, but "reality" is that there's no reason for things to be worse than last season and some chance things will actually get better.

Do you? I’m not so sure of that. I suppose until June or so you do. Nope, that ship has sailed. I don’t think Green Bay will ever really have him again. Way Way too much damage done there. I’m not sure that is repairable at this point.

[Zool]

Reality is that is why this is a form where posters should be encouraged to express their thoughts and debate . And that is why we're here sunshine :)

When the horse is dead, it’s dead.

[pbmax]

Aaron Nagler @AaronNagler
In the last year Gutekunst has:
Tried to trade for Robby Anderson
Tried to sign Emmanuel Sanders
Tried to trade up for a WR in the 2nd round

Pretty clear he would love to augment the talent at that position but refuses to overpay.

ALSO SIGNED A FA (FUNCHISE) AND THE CANADIAN LEAGUE PLAYER.

We also have Peter King's comment that they liked receivers in each of the first two rounds. But he ported Gute as saying they could not find a trade partner in the second. https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2020/04/27/report-packers-tried-to-trade-up-to-get-wr-in-second-round/

Also another report from King that someone was trying to trade up for a QB.

Zach Kruse @zachkruse2
Also, @peter_king wrote the Packers had "significant intel" that a team picking in the early second round was going to trade up for Jordan Love, so they did it first


I THINK YOU PUT THIS ALL TOGETHER AND YOU GET A PICTURE NOT UNLIKE ILB OR SAFETIES (NON SAVAGE YEARS). ITS NOT A POSITION THAT WILL PAY A PREMIUM FOR.

SO IS THIS NOW THE FLOWERS OFFENSE? I DON'T THINK MUCH CHANGES. STORMBRINGER WAS AN H BACK LAST YEAR, DAGUERREOTYPE COULD BE THIS YEAR.

IT COULD ALL STILL BLOW UP, BUT I DOUBT THE OFFENSE IS MUCH CHANGED FROM LAST YEAR. MAYBE IF DAGUERREOTYPE BLOWS UP CAMP YOU WILL SEE DECIDEDLY MORE 2 TE. BUT THAT IS ABOUT IT.

[beveaux1]

Article by Schwab that the Packers called the Vikings to trade up and get Love. https://www.yahoo.com/sports/packers-were-so-desperate-to-move-up-for-qb-jordan-love-they-called-the-vikings-for-a-trade-154834971.html

Probably just as likely that they tried to trade with Vikings to get Aiyuk. I doubt that they told the Vikings why they wanted to trade up.

[GB-Brandon]

Aaron Nagler @AaronNagler
·
2h
In the last year Gutekunst has:
Tried to trade for Robby Anderson
Tried to sign Emmanuel Sanders
Tried to trade up for a WR in the 2nd round

Pretty clear he would love to augment the talent at that position but refuses to overpay.

ALSO SIGNED A FA (FUNCHISE) AND THE CANADIAN LEAGUE PLAYER.

We also have Peter King's comment that they liked receivers in each of the first two rounds. But he ported Gute as saying they could not find a trade partner in the second. https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2020/04/27/report-packers-tried-to-trade-up-to-get-wr-in-second-round/

Also another report from King that someone was trying to trade up for a QB.

Zach Kruse @zachkruse2
Also, @peter_king wrote the Packers had "significant intel" that a team picking in the early second round was going to trade up for Jordan Love, so they did it first


I THINK YOU PUT THIS ALL TOGETHER AND YOU GET A PICTURE NOT UNLIKE ILB OR SAFETIES (NON SAVAGE YEARS). ITS NOT A POSITION THAT WILL PAY A PREMIUM FOR.

SO IS THIS NOW THE FLOWERS OFFENSE? I DON'T THINK MUCH CHANGES. STORMBRINGER WAS AN H BACK LAST YEAR, DAGUERREOTYPE COULD BE THIS YEAR.

IT COULD ALL STILL BLOW UP, BUT I DOUBT THE OFFENSE IS MUCH CHANGED FROM LAST YEAR. MAYBE IF DAGUERREOTYPE BLOWS UP CAMP YOU WILL SEE DECIDEDLY MORE 2 TE. BUT THAT IS ABOUT IT.

It will be interesting to see what Tee Higgins and Denzel Mims or maybe even Pittman do over the next couple of years.

I also believed there were many upgrades in the middle rounds and even late rounds that could of helped us.

To have ten picks and come away with “ZERO” is unacceptable.

Gute shouldn’t even have a job right now after this disaster.

[beveaux1]

Remember, the Vikings traded their #25 pick in the 1st round to the 49ers.

[pbmax]

Article by Schwab that the Packers called the Vikings to trade up and get Love. https://www.yahoo.com/sports/packers-were-so-desperate-to-move-up-for-qb-jordan-love-they-called-the-vikings-for-a-trade-154834971.html

Probably just as likely that they tried to trade with Vikings to get Aiyuk. I doubt that they told the Vikings why they wanted to trade up.

There is a problem with this report, how do we know its not about another player? Teams don't always share the target of the trade, especially with a rival.

[GB-Brandon]

Remember, the Vikings traded their #25 pick in the 1st round to the 49ers.

I get that. I had Aiyuk as the #3 receiver. Niners had Aiyuk as #1. So we miss out on Aiyuk but that doesn’t mean you just burn the whole WR playbook.

Also, John Lynch is a beast of a GM. He makes it happen. Gotta tip your hat.

[Deputy Nutz]

If I am not mistaken, the way the Reggie/Favre Packers got past the Cowboys was to not play them in the 1996 playoffs.

Every loss to the Cowboys happened in Dallas. I think it is as simple as home field advantage. The Packers lost to Dallas 4 or 5 times in a row playing in Dallas. The Packers had home field advantage, that 1996 team wasn't going to lose to anyone at home.

[pbmax]

Now we are getting somewhere.

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2020/04/27/packers-shift-away-from-prioritizing-wrs-has-been-baffling/

[Deputy Nutz]

The fact that they didn’t draft one WR in the entire draft isn’t some “Wild Conspiracy”. Either is the fact that they traded up in the 1st round to find his replacement. Either is the fact that every offensive pick fits a more Tennessee Titans style offensive mold.

So yeah. “Mom, Dad, Everyome it’s OVER”

Geez. Can’t Believe how naive some fans are. Trust me, This is not something I enjoy being right about.

Dude, what is over? The franchise? I think the franchise will still exist after Aaron Rodgers is gone just like the Green Bay Packers kept going after the Favre trade. I think you have invested a little too much into this team, and also you don't win a Super in late April because of what arm chair GM's say about your draft, or where certain guys were projected to go. Get a grip. New England needed a QB, did they draft a QB? No they did not. I think that is a bigger question mark than the Packers not drafting a receiver.

[bobblehead]

HA; I thought you would be the only guy who "might" bit cause you are trying to jam the homer juice

But deep down you know we've become no better the last two days

But on the brighter note we may have the replacements when Aaron and Aaron leave

Would u like to bet me that SF wins 13 next year? Yea, I thought not.

[bobblehead]

I think we're a 9-10 win team, but not legitimate contenders... that is the TT/Gute "process/philosophy".

We'll likely trade Rodgers after this season and hope that Love isn't a bust.

Realistically, we're looking at the 2024 season for any real hope of contending.

Do teams that aren't legitimate contenders usually make the NFCC? Asking for a friend.

[wist43]

Do teams that aren't legitimate contenders usually make the NFCC? Asking for a friend.

Yeah, they do... we did last year.

SF showed where our team is, and then SF wasn't good enough to win it all either.

All of our competition improved, we did not... it's that simple.

Do you want to make the argument that we improved from last year??

[mraynrand]

Do you want to make the argument that we improved from last year??

Running game should be improved. TE position should be much stronger and healthier. Funchess is a clear upgrade over Allison.

I expect the secondary to be improved with maturity.

Right now D line and ILB show no reason to think they will be improved. OLB should be outstanding.

[GB-Brandon]

The title is “Gute’s plan revealed”

This is the plan. It’s called

Jones

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DBdpEeXg-g

Plus Dillion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsFIYwg5k-I&feature=share

And FUCK YOU!!!!!

Pound the rock and let Rodgers win games at the end.

I have no problem with it really as long Gute can make a move to get another perimeter weapon.

But this is the PLAN!

[call_me_ishmael]

Now we are getting somewhere.

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2020/04/27/packers-shift-away-from-prioritizing-wrs-has-been-baffling/

Boy, when you put this down on paper, it really is damning. How have they under invested in that position so much??

(he says, half-way through the read).

[call_me_ishmael]

Do teams that aren't legitimate contenders usually make the NFCC? Asking for a friend.

Yes. Packers have done it twice in four years now. They for sure were smoked off the field and couldn't hold the jock of Atlanta or SF the past two times they were in the game. Conversely, they clearly were competitors and contenders the year they lost in the game we don't talk about. Whether there are stats to support this or just the eye test, I know not, but to me it was very clear within 5 minutes how both going to go in ATL and SF and SEA.

[GB-Brandon]

I am gonna have to get a Dillon Jersey.

[pbmax]

Running game should be improved. TE position should be much stronger and healthier. Funchess is a clear upgrade over Allison.

I expect the secondary to be improved with maturity.

Right now D line and ILB show no reason to think they will be improved. OLB should be outstanding.

I'd say they have a shot at improving ILB. Much depends on his health though.

[pbmax]

nm

[GB-Brandon]

Dude, what is over? The franchise? I think the franchise will still exist after Aaron Rodgers is gone just like the Green Bay Packers kept going after the Favre trade. I think you have invested a little too much into this team, and also you don't win a Super in late April because of what arm chair GM's say about your draft, or where certain guys were projected to go. Get a grip. New England needed a QB, did they draft a QB? No they did not. I think that is a bigger question mark than the Packers not drafting a receiver.


The fan base has been spoiled over the last 30 years with HOF QB play. I wanna see all the “hype” and “spins” after three years of straight losing.

[RashanGary]

It's really weird to call the people who made the draft picks "evil."

I can't come up with one "evil" motive.

But, the term gutebag is a nice little addition to our lexicon. I need as many excuses to laugh as possible.

[GB-Brandon]

It's really weird to call the people who made the draft picks "evil."

I can't come up with one "evil" motive.

But, the term gutebag is a nice little addition to our lexicon. I need as many excuses to laugh as possible.

Well I imagine everyone will have a long time(maybe decades) to talk about it and try to figure it out.

This can happen too any franchise. The Packers are not immune too it. My good friend from DC called me today to assure me of that!!!’

[Bretsky]

If Gutebag traded up with Snota and took Love over Aiyuk, I wonder if the koolaidism would be a bit weaker

[mraynrand]

I'd say they have a shot at improving ILB. Much depends on his health though.

I agree

[PackerGold]

The facts are, a No.1 NFL draft pick quarterback is not going to sit on the bench four years straight. That four years represents a large portion of the earning years. Aaron Rogers has four years left on his contract. Those are the facts.

Now, I did not see much in this years draft or last years draft to move the team who finished 1 game from the Super Bowl forward, and my personal expectation is a 10-6 season and an early loss in the playoffs.

How does this 2020 finish effect Aaron Rogers. Finishing below 2019 will not impress the Packer Nation who expected to reach the Super Bowl in 2020.If this happens, I expect the Packers to trade Aaron Rogers before the start of the 2021 season with three years left on his contract. the bigger "Rebuild" question is, what does Gute and LaFluer have to rebuild with? NOT MUCH.