Future of the Packers O-Line

[RashanGary]

Bakh (4 years left in the tank)
Jenkins (8 years in the tank)
Patrick or the Oregon center??
Runyan/Madison/Stepanski??
???????


RT is going to be a pretty big need going into next year. But the future of the line, there are enough draft picks and development guys to expect most of the spots will be filled for a number of years

[GB-Brandon]

Well they had a chance to draft Lucas Niang in the 3rd instead of reaching for an H-Back.

Another “head scratcher”

[texaspackerbacker]

I like Linsley a helluva lot more than Bakhtiari. For this season, we have both of them anyway. Jenkins is at least very decent with a ceiling of star quality. Turner may have been a disappointment, but he's at least a marginal starter. Ditto that I would think for Wagner. The same people who brought us the Smiths and a 13-3 record brought us him. I see Patrick as a quality back up across the whole line. Veldheer is still a free agent - if he's worth it, I think we'll sign him again. I don't have much hope for Madison, but Runyan was one of the O Linemen I was hoping for. Stepanski and the Oregon guy I don't know much about, but they are something instead of nothing.

As I have said, the bottom line for me is that Aaron Rodgers has survived and thrived pretty much forever running for his life without decent pass blocking (and maybe reading idiotic crap about holding onto the ball too long). Aaron Jones survived and thrived last year with basically this O Line minus Bulaga who had a good year pass blocking but was nothing special in run blocking.

We'll be ok - as good, maybe better than last season O Line-wise.

[Upnorth]

After this draft I have a far better feeling about our oline than before. So much about day three showed the long term plan. At end day 2 I was thinking wtf and then round 6 happened.

The future of our oline was questionable but now we have the choice of 5 prospects for the 2 positions of concern in 2021. Unfortunately this season depends a fair amount on Wagner.

[bobblehead]

I think we get another contract from Lindsey. And its really impossible to look more than 3 years out so I would say we are set at 4 of 5 positions for the next 3 years. We may need someone to emerge at RT. We have a few candidates on the roster and I think Wagner was a safety valve, and they are hoping he finds a spot on the bench.

[pbmax]

I think we get another contract from Lindsey. And its really impossible to look more than 3 years out so I would say we are set at 4 of 5 positions for the next 3 years. We may need someone to emerge at RT. We have a few candidates on the roster and I think Wagner was a safety valve, and they are hoping he finds a spot on the bench.

If they sign Bach and Clark, not sure Linsley is in the budget. Think that is why Lucas Patrick was signed and at least one of the O lineman in the sixth.

[Joemailman]

If they sign Bach and Clark, not sure Linsley is in the budget. Think that is why Lucas Patrick was signed and at least one of the O lineman in the sixth.

I think Jake Hanson looks like the heir apparent to Linsley. 4 year starter, zone player.

[Bretsky]

I agree their OL is in decent shape; plus they will continue to neglect WR and ILB and probably draft another OL high next year.

[texaspackerbacker]

Maybe some of ya'all who think they won't prioritize Linsley will turn out to be correct. I hope not, though. Think about it ...... where did the Packers run most successfully? through the middle. Where did LaFleur prefer to run? those outside zones - running over Bakhtiari and Bulaga. Most of the time, those plays turned to shit - blown up for loss or no gain. Similarly, where did most of the pass rush pressure come from against the Packers? the edge, that's where, seldom over Linsley and the Guards. And I think Bakhtiari seemed worse than Bulaga most of the time.

So if somebody is gonna be let go in free agency, I'd say it should be him. In addition, Bakhtiari seems to have a chronic maybe degenerative back injury - another reason I'd hate to see a long term investment in him.

With the various possible combinations, I would think they could try a lot of those and groom whoever seems to work out best for the future. As I said, IMO it wouldn't take much to replace or upgrade Bakhtiari at LT going forward.

This is all more like what I wish than what I expect, though.

[RashanGary]

I highly doubt Lindsley is coming back. The combination of Patrick and all of the draft picks, including Madison.... I just don't see paying him.

[Bretsky]

I highly doubt Lindsley is coming back. The combination of Patrick and all of the draft picks, including Madison.... I just don't see paying him.

I have to agree; and the Oregon C is a strong strong dude. They value OT and I think they keep Bach; I like Linsley but I'm guessing he gets paid elsewhere

[texaspackerbacker]

As I said, I've got a bad feeling you might be right. And maybe we get Bakhtiari cheaper because he's on the down side of things. I just don't like it. Do ya'all see any reason why Jake Hanson or Stepaniak or Runyan or Lucas Patrick couldn't be about as effective as Bakhtiari or maybe more so after a year or so of training and practice at Left Tackle?

[Bretsky]

I think Hanson takes over at C

I think Runyan is an OG

Not a huge fan of Stapaniak but I hope I'm wrong

[Joemailman]

As I said, I've got a bad feeling you might be right. And maybe we get Bakhtiari cheaper because he's on the down side of things. I just don't like it. Do ya'all see any reason why Jake Hanson or Stepaniak or Runyan or Lucas Patrick couldn't be about as effective as Bakhtiari or maybe more so after a year or so of training and practice at Left Tackle?

You want to make Aaron Rodgers laugh? Tell him David Bakhtiari isn't very good. Bakhtiari dealt with injuries much of last year and didn't have his best year although he played very well at the end of the year. In 2018 he was the best LT in the NFL. Period. You're the only one who doesn't seem to realize it.

[Joemailman]

I think Hanson takes over at C

I think Runyan is an OG

Not a huge fan of Stapaniak but I hope I'm wrong

Agree about Hanson. I think Runyan could be the kind of G/T swingman the Packers like. Stepaniak is strong but will need some coaching to become more balanced in his pass sets.

[texaspackerbacker]

You want to make Aaron Rodgers laugh? Tell him David Bakhtiari isn't very good. Bakhtiari dealt with injuries much of last year and didn't have his best year although he played very well at the end of the year. In 2018 he was the best LT in the NFL. Period. You're the only one who doesn't seem to realize it.

What I see is Aaron Rodgers forced to run for his life virtually every pass play, most of that pressure from the edge, not up the middle, and way more from Bakhtiari's side than Bulaga's. And I think a lot of other Packer fans see the same - why would they not? It's happening. And even though Bakhtiari was good (not as great IMO as some think) in 2018, he was nowhere near as good in 2019 due to injuries or whatever, and back injuries have a habit of lingering and getting worse.

Obviously Aaron Rodgers isn't gonna say anything against anybody in his O Line. But I assume he sees and can compare the blocking most QBs get with what he gets and silently wishes it was better.

As I said, I hope those 3 6th rounders plus Patrick and maybe Madison (who I also don't like) get cross-trained to be interchangeable parts in the O Line. None of those 3 are exactly road graders, but they are strong and stout blockers, as I would want, even if it means a bit less mobility.

[mraynrand]

What I see is Aaron Rodgers forced to run for his life virtually every pass play,

Maybe if he ran the play as scripted and didn’t hold the ball looking for the ‘big strike’ he wouldn’t have to run for his life ‘every play’

[mraynrand]

If they sign Bach and Clark, not sure Linsley is in the budget. Think that is why Lucas Patrick was signed and at least one of the O lineman in the sixth.

Detroit will be in the market for an overpaid center anyway.

[texaspackerbacker]

Maybe if he ran the play as scripted and didn’t hold the ball looking for the ‘big strike’ he wouldn’t have to run for his life ‘every play’

This reminds me a lot of what you posted and I just countered in the other end of the forum hahahaha.

What you are saying - here too - is the same old whine. Take what I say on the one hand - Rodgers being forced out of the pocket almost instantly on virtually every pass play and often from edge rushes, versus what you say - Rodgers intentionally departing from scripted plays and looking for the "big strike" ...... I have to ask, do you seriously believe what you're saying? Is that what any objective observer sees? Not many, I expect.

[Joemailman]

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-line-rankings-following-2019-regular-season


6. GREEN BAY PACKERS
The perception of the Packers’ offensive line doesn’t always meet reality. Aaron Rodgers consistently holds onto the football with one of the longest average time to throws in the NFL. As PFF Data Scientist Timo Riske explored with offensive line survival rates, that significantly increases the chance for quarterback pressure and sacks. Their 22nd-ranked pressure rate allowed isn’t all that impressive, but their average time to allow a pressure of 2.62 seconds (best in the NFL) is much more so.

In other words, the Packers OL was the best in the NFL at initially giving their QB time to throw. The high pressure rate is due to Rodgers holding the ball for a long time. But just about everybody who watches the Packers already knows this.

[bobblehead]

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-line-rankings-following-2019-regular-season



In other words, the Packers OL was the best in the NFL at initially giving their QB time to throw. The high pressure rate is due to Rodgers holding the ball for a long time. But just about everybody who watches the Packers already knows this.

Couple this with the video Red posted about Flower being done with Rodgers and his maverick ways along with the videos that Pb posted of Love and I am thinking that Rodgers days are numbered indeed.

The first thing I noticed about Love was he makes 2 reads and unloads the ball. Almost David Carr like. TOO fast for my taste sometimes. But Flower O is based on making the fast rhythm play and taking what the D allows until you tighten them up and then going downfield. I only watched a small sample size, but man did it look like Love gets rid of it quick.

[pbmax]

Maybe some of ya'all who think they won't prioritize Linsley will turn out to be correct. I hope not, though. Think about it ...... where did the Packers run most successfully? through the middle. Where did LaFleur prefer to run? those outside zones - running over Bakhtiari and Bulaga. Most of the time, those plays turned to shit - blown up for loss or no gain. Similarly, where did most of the pass rush pressure come from against the Packers? the edge, that's where, seldom over Linsley and the Guards. And I think Bakhtiari seemed worse than Bulaga most of the time.

So if somebody is gonna be let go in free agency, I'd say it should be him. In addition, Bakhtiari seems to have a chronic maybe degenerative back injury - another reason I'd hate to see a long term investment in him.

With the various possible combinations, I would think they could try a lot of those and groom whoever seems to work out best for the future. As I said, IMO it wouldn't take much to replace or upgrade Bakhtiari at LT going forward.

This is all more like what I wish than what I expect, though.

There is some truth to this. Bach had a wobbly first half of the year in pass pro. He's not a great run blocker but solid. Bulga just doesn't have the agility anymore to cut people off regularly.

But I think part of the outside zone issue was TE blocking and the RBs. Jones is a better runner inside. Wiliams is a more natural one cut runner but he normally gets what is blocked and then fall forward.

And Linsley did not have a great year to my eyes. The coordination in the middle looked poor and he let a few slip by unblocked (but its hard to day was it him or the rookie or up and down Turner or a RB who missed an assignment). More problematic, I saw he get driven backwards on more than a few pass plays.

[Joemailman]

When they made the move to more inside runs last year, I thought it was more due to the RB's than the OL. I thought the sense was that Jones was not executing a lot of outside zone runs effectively. I wonder if MLF will accept that reality or try again to establish the outside zone runs. I would think play action and misdirection is more effective if opposing defenses have to respect the outside run threat.

[pbmax]

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-line-rankings-following-2019-regular-season

In other words, the Packers OL was the best in the NFL at initially giving their QB time to throw. The high pressure rate is due to Rodgers holding the ball for a long time. But just about everybody who watches the Packers already knows this.

I haven't read it, but I suspect even that number includes Rodgers ability to bounce inside the pocket. And he seems to prefer that more these days than running.

[texaspackerbacker]

Based on body type and skill set, Jones should be a good outside runner too. I think he just didn't get much blocking there like he got from Linsley and Jenkins.

[pbmax]

Based on body type and skill set, Jones should be a good outside runner too. I think he just didn't get much blocking there like he got from Linsley and Jenkins.

He good at getting the corner, but that isn't what outside zone is about. Outside zone is getting everyone flowing to the field side and then cutting up or back into one of two lanes. Jones always wants to get to the corner instead. Some of this could be blocking, but it also seems like his preference.

[RashanGary]

This reminds me a lot of what you posted and I just countered in the other end of the forum hahahaha.

What you are saying - here too - is the same old whine. Take what I say on the one hand - Rodgers being forced out of the pocket almost instantly on virtually every pass play and often from edge rushes, versus what you say - Rodgers intentionally departing from scripted plays and looking for the "big strike" ...... I have to ask, do you seriously believe what you're saying? Is that what any objective observer sees? Not many, I expect.

Yes Tex. A lot of people seriously view it that way.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Tex is delusional. The Packers OL was one of the best in the league last year. Three plus OL in Bakh, Bulaga, and Jenkins + two serviceable OL in Turner and Linsley.

[texaspackerbacker]

The only two I'd label "plus OL" would be Jenkins and Linsley. Bulaga stayed fairly healthy and rose to the level of serviceable in his contract year. Bakhtiari, charitably IMO degraded down to marginally serviceable. Turner was a disappointment, but they did have success running inside, and he was part of that.

Some of ya'all seem surprised that I don't think much of Bakhtiari; I have to ask, why do ya'all have such low regard for Linsley?

[Joemailman]

The only two I'd label "plus OL" would be Jenkins and Linsley. Bulaga stayed fairly healthy and rose to the level of serviceable in his contract year. Bakhtiari, charitably IMO degraded down to marginally serviceable. Turner was a disappointment, but they did have success running inside, and he was part of that.

Some of ya'all seem surprised that I don't think much of Bakhtiari; I have to ask, why do ya'all have such low regard for Linsley?

I don't have a low regard for Linsley. But good C's are easier to find than good LT's. Packers likely have Linsley's heir apparent on the roster. Not so Bakhtiari.

[pbmax]

Watch the Packers move Turner to Center :lol:

[Bretsky]

The only two I'd label "plus OL" would be Jenkins and Linsley. Bulaga stayed fairly healthy and rose to the level of serviceable in his contract year. Bakhtiari, charitably IMO degraded down to marginally serviceable. Turner was a disappointment, but they did have success running inside, and he was part of that.

Some of ya'all seem surprised that I don't think much of Bakhtiari; I have to ask, why do ya'all have such low regard for Linsley?



You are delusional and over the top homer on this; when Bulaga has been healthy you won't find a credible football source giving him a "serviceable" ranking. He was way better than Jenkins our average guys. He's our best OL behind Bach when healthy. But now that he's gone he sucks like any other player not on the Packer roater

[run pMc]

They will do everything to keep Bahk IMO. You don't let LT's leave unless they are old and you have a replacement (Jason Peters) or they hate your organization (Trent WIlliams) or you don't want to pay them (Trent Brown). Bahk is a Top 5 LT and that is a critical position for pass pro when you have a right handed QB.

I think Linsley is very good, but he's had some back injuries and I worry about that getting worse as he ages. The Patrick extension and drafting Hanson (plus they have Jenkins could play C in a pinch) all but signals he's gone.

Also, if you think about it from a cap-to-position spending standpoint, you really can't have all your O-Lineman on pricey 2nd or 3rd contracts... too much of your cap room eaten by aging players. The only starting OL on a rookie contract is Jenkins, and that will change.
It makes sense to constantly draft OL for a reason.

[texaspackerbacker]

You are delusional and over the top homer on this; when Bulaga has been healthy you won't find a credible football source giving him a "serviceable" ranking. He was way better than Jenkins our average guys. He's our best OL behind Bach when healthy. But now that he's gone he sucks like any other player not on the Packer roater

Ok, then why do we get such piss poor pass blocking - consistently, and run blocking which is fairly good at times, but tends to disappear against better D teams? And I'm talking about not just last season, but a decade or more. Blaming Aaron Rodgers is both ludicrous and shameful. His mobility has been the only thing keeping the pass blocking from being a disaster.

Bulaga has been above average when healthy, but how often has that happened for any length of time over the years? And when did you ever see holes opened on his edge (or Bakhtiari's) like what Jenkins and Linsley did up the middle often last season?

[RashanGary]

I agree with Tex, that Bahk is a below average run blocker. He's a very good pass blocker though. Solid player at a position that's hard to fill. I hope hes reasonable to negotiate with. I wouldn't spend through the roof on a guy who is approaching 30.

Bulaga was also a below average run blocker and very good pass blocker, at a position that's easier to fill.

Lindlsey is a dime a dozen. Every team has a servicable center, and a lot of teams have two.

[RashanGary]

Bahk turns 29 at the start of the season this year. So you'd be paying for years 30, 31 and 32 on a three year deal. It's not unheard of, but I can't see going over 12M/year.

Gonna really have to dig for tackles because it's becoming a fast problem.

[RashanGary]

Rick Wagner PFF Grades
2016 74
2017 75
2018 71
2019 56

[RashanGary]

Bulagas Grades

2016 76
2017 61
2018 75
2019 78

[RashanGary]

Take out each of their injury shortened years and Bulaga is about a 76 compared to Wagner's 73. I don't think we're gonna see too much drop off, honestly.

Kirksey and Wagner appear to be smart financial decisions as ways to replace Martinez and Bulaga.

[texaspackerbacker]

Sheeeesh, $12 million a year for Bakhtiari ..... and the worst is that it probably will happen. The way I see it, his reputation as a pass blocker is based entirely on Aaron Rodgers' escapability. Virtually every damn time, edge rushers come roaring around his corner and force the QB out of the pocket. It's amazing to me that some others can't seem to see that. The few times we've played with a less mobile QB in there, it's been an absolute disaster. And yeah, he's pretty bad as a run blocker too. And on top of all that, he has the back problem. Probably ya'all will get your wish, though, and we'll be stuck with him beyond 2020.

To some extent, I agree about Centers being not that hard to find, although for a long time I don't recall the Packers being able to run inside. Since that peaked last season, I'd maybe give Jenkins more credit. So I suppose the thing to do is let some other team over pay for Linsley.

Let's compromise and not re-sign either him or Bakhtiari. And let's work the hell out of each and every one of the 3 or 4 or 5 young O Linemen at LT in the preseason, preferably early in games against the first string of other teams. I just bet at least one of them would stand out, and none of them would be any worse than Bakhtiari.

[RashanGary]

Bahktiari grades
2016 86
2017 87
2018 89
2019 79

Now, at LT, that will be hard to replace. Ugh, thats a tough decision. The doctors know everything about his injury history and how his body is holding up. We'll see. If they think he can hang on a few more years, you want to keep that guy. Find a permanent RT ASAP and keep digging for the heir apparent at LT.

[texaspackerbacker]

How objective are those numbers? I bet it presupposes how good somebody thinks a player is, and as long as there aren't a lot of sacks or clearly missed run blocks, the grade stays high. And as I said, with Rodgers at QB, you aren't gonna have many sacks even though the OT gets beat.

[RashanGary]

How objective are those numbers? I bet it presupposes how good somebody thinks a player is, and as long as there aren't a lot of sacks or clearly missed run blocks, the grade stays high. And as I said, with Rodgers at QB, you aren't gonna have many sacks even though the OT gets beat.

They grade for an amount of time. If the QB holds the ball, it's the QBs fault, not the lineman. Most of Rodgers scrambles fall on AR cuz he holds the ball longer than anyobe else.

[RashanGary]

AR did make holding the ball cool again though. It's the new style. AR set up the Wilson, Mahommes, Watson extended offense style.

Not hating on AR, just saying, can't expect a lineman to block forever

[texaspackerbacker]

Not just cool, but the way to have success and win games.

So when you said "they grade for an amount of time", did you mean the longer the QB holds the ball, the higher the grade? or the lower the grade? Either way, it seems to not be a very good indicator of quality in the O Lineman.

[bobblehead]

He good at getting the corner, but that isn't what outside zone is about. Outside zone is getting everyone flowing to the field side and then cutting up or back into one of two lanes. Jones always wants to get to the corner instead. Some of this could be blocking, but it also seems like his preference.

Exactly. If the edge is open he is deadly. If not he strings it out for a 1 yard gain. He never actually cuts back against the grain for the 6 yarder, or 50 yarder if its open. Outside ZBS is the best system available, but if you ain't got the horses.....

[bobblehead]

I agree with Tex, that Bahk is a below average run blocker. He's a very good pass blocker though. Solid player at a position that's hard to fill. I hope hes reasonable to negotiate with. I wouldn't spend through the roof on a guy who is approaching 30.

Bulaga was also a below average run blocker and very good pass blocker, at a position that's easier to fill.

Lindlsey is a dime a dozen. Every team has a servicable center, and a lot of teams have two.

For a RT bak is below average. For a LT he is above average. Most of Jones big hits came running left and Bak getting the edge.

[bobblehead]

How objective are those numbers? I bet it presupposes how good somebody thinks a player is, and as long as there aren't a lot of sacks or clearly missed run blocks, the grade stays high. And as I said, with Rodgers at QB, you aren't gonna have many sacks even though the OT gets beat.

A typical way to grade an OL is if he stonewalls his man for 2.5 seconds. Its irrelevant what happens around him. You grade his play in a vacuum.

[pbmax]

Ok, then why do we get such piss poor pass blocking - consistently, and run blocking which is fairly good at times, but tends to disappear against better D teams? And I'm talking about not just last season, but a decade or more. Blaming Aaron Rodgers is both ludicrous and shameful. His mobility has been the only thing keeping the pass blocking from being a disaster.

Bulaga has been above average when healthy, but how often has that happened for any length of time over the years? And when did you ever see holes opened on his edge (or Bakhtiari's) like what Jenkins and Linsley did up the middle often last season?

Some of the poor blocking is Turner. Some of it is just a poor play here or there. Some of it is Jones isn't the pass blocker Williams is.

Some of it is Rodgers wanting a numbers mismatch so he lets a free rusher go.

And some of it is Rodgers holding the ball.

The numbers show the Packers O line can pass block well. Rodgers is just taking advantage of that to the extreme.

[texaspackerbacker]

The numbers may show it, the films don't. The difference is Rodgers' escapability. I'm not gonna say much in favor of Turner, but there was seldom a big pass rush up the middle. It almost always came from the outside, usually Bakhtiari's side. In fairness, that's where a lot of teams put their best edge rusher, but even that could be taken two ways: because it's the QB's blind side? Or because they knew they can beat Bakhtiari. I literally never saw that "2.5 second stone wall" from Bakhtiari.

Rodgers takes advantage of the circumstance to the extreme all right. That circumstance almost all of the time, though, is duck and run, then either reset or throw on the run - and I doubt anybody in the history of the game has ever been that good at succeeding in adverse circumstances. I just wonder what he could have accomplished if he had better line blocking - like Brady or Brees have had.

Maybe the Packers are intentionally assuring that those circumstances stay the same by getting by with mostly low round O Line picks.

[mraynrand]

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-line-rankings-following-2019-regular-season



In other words, the Packers OL was the best in the NFL at initially giving their QB time to throw. The high pressure rate is due to Rodgers holding the ball for a long time. But just about everybody who watches the Packers already knows this.

I note Tex didn’t answer this.

It’s exhausting ‘arguing’ with Tex. People present facts and evidence. Tex presents his personal assertions. Waste of time.

[Rastak]

I note Tex didn’t answer this.

It’s exhausting ‘arguing’ with Tex. People present facts and evidence. Tex presents his personal assertions. Waste of time.

You get points for noticing that Rand, and points for lots of other things too.

[Joemailman]

The numbers may show it, the films don't. The difference is Rodgers' escapability. I'm not gonna say much in favor of Turner, but there was seldom a big pass rush up the middle. It almost always came from the outside, usually Bakhtiari's side. In fairness, that's where a lot of teams put their best edge rusher, but even that could be taken two ways: because it's the QB's blind side? Or because they knew they can beat Bakhtiari. I literally never saw that "2.5 second stone wall" from Bakhtiari.

Rodgers takes advantage of the circumstance to the extreme all right. That circumstance almost all of the time, though, is duck and run, then either reset or throw on the run - and I doubt anybody in the history of the game has ever been that good at succeeding in adverse circumstances. I just wonder what he could have accomplished if he had better line blocking - like Brady or Brees have had.

Maybe the Packers are intentionally assuring that those circumstances stay the same by getting by with mostly low round O Line picks.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/8f6e4a52b26572d0ffb0a58e61ead1f4/tenor.gif?itemid=11045374

[texaspackerbacker]

I note Tex didn’t answer this.

It’s exhausting ‘arguing’ with Tex. People present facts and evidence. Tex presents his personal assertions. Waste of time.

hahahaha exhausting for you because you always lose. I didn't notice the question I missed answering, but I wouldn't have replied to Viking scum who don't belong in a Packer forum anyway.

[pbmax]

hahahaha exhausting for you because you always lose. I didn't notice the question I missed answering, but I wouldn't have replied to Viking scum who don't belong in a Packer forum anyway.

Unfair! Rastak is very high quality scum!

:tup: Rastak

[mraynrand]

hahahaha exhausting for you because you always lose. I didn't notice the question I missed answering, but I wouldn't have replied to Viking scum who don't belong in a Packer forum anyway.

Wrong as usual

[texaspackerbacker]

Yes, you are, Rand.

[mraynrand]

Yes, you are, Rand.

You got me this time. Can I stop the bleeding?

[run pMc]

Bahktiari is good. Full stop. You don't get All-Pro votes by being a slouch...unlike Pro Bowl, it doesn't have fan voting.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BakhDa00.htm

There's a reason teams draft LTs in the Top 5 - a franchise level blindside protector matters a lot to an offense. Bahk will start to slip in his 30's but he's still good.
I think he was hurt and got off to a rough start last season but found his sea legs by midseason.

As for the 2.5 second thing and Rodgers, you could also point to the numerous plays showing him not throwing to open receivers and holding the ball. In other cases the receivers weren't open or teams blitzed (or the OL gave up pressure). That's been discussed at great length in other posts.

[texaspackerbacker]

"unlike Pro Bowl, it doesn't have fan voting" ....... yeah, and who does do the all pro voting? not the players and/or coaches; It's the God damned know-nothing media.

I don't doubt that Bakhtiari was hurt, but I sure didn't see that much improvement the second half of the season - maybe just people getting used to things and maybe the coaches designing it to get him more help.

As for that shit about holding onto the ball too long and supposedly missing open receivers, it's incredible to me that some people presume to know better than the QB on the field. Was there a lot of blitzing against the Packers? Mostly no, because they were able to get such a strong pass rush without blitzing as well as because Aaron Rodgers tends to be so good at making blitzing teams pay. To a great extent, that lack of a need to blitz is the reason we didn't have as many open receivers as a lot of teams, especially Packer opponents.

The bottom line - the most important thing - is not throwing interceptions, and no one in the history of the NFL is better at getting the job done without interceptions than the GOAT, Aaron Rodgers - a fact that flies right over the heads of some ingrates in here.

[mraynrand]

As for that shit about holding onto the ball too long and supposedly missing open receivers, it's incredible to me that some people presume to know better than the QB on the field.

That's a straw man. Maybe holding the ball longer is better and represents good judgment by the QB or maybe it's bad. As far as the argument over quality of pass protection, it's a distraction. You're just wrong about the quality of pass pro by Bacteria and the rest of the line. Whatever the consequences of Rodgers holding the ball longer are, he does hold it longer, it's a provable fact, the line protects better, longer: another provable fact, and you're simply wrong. Wrong wrong wrong. Suck on it.

[pbmax]

We might be having a 20 post continuing argument over a very narrow gap.

Bobble, who watched O line play as closely as anyone we have here (I am not sure if Nutz has weighed in), thinks Bach is slightly overrated. That he isn't a shut down, close the door, set it and forget it LT like Clifton or Jason Peters.

But he does feel he is good. Worth the investment of his second contract if I remember correctly. Don't know how he feels about a third.

So its possible that the real argument here is between a Top 7 LT (2019 was a down year esp early so probably not true for for 2019 alone) and Top 15.

My feeling is that he can play at an elite level but rules emphasis and injuries hampered him in 2019. He does not dominate in the run game but is mobile enough to be effective in a ZBS and is better at pass pro.

If you remember Newhouse or Barbre or Colledge trying to play LT, I think you want him back though perhaps not at elite dollars.

[mraynrand]

That seems right on the money.

[texaspackerbacker]

That's a straw man. Maybe holding the ball longer is better and represents good judgment by the QB or maybe it's bad. As far as the argument over quality of pass protection, it's a distraction. You're just wrong about the quality of pass pro by Bacteria and the rest of the line. Whatever the consequences of Rodgers holding the ball longer are, he does hold it longer, it's a provable fact, the line protects better, longer: another provable fact, and you're simply wrong. Wrong wrong wrong. Suck on it.

Yeah, he holds it longer hahahahahaha ...... and what is he doing all those seconds? Just standing around stewing about making a decision - "to throw or not to throw, that is the question"? Hell no, he's running for his life trying to escape the slings of arrows coming in over Bakhtiari more than anywhere else, then either slinging an arrow on his own while on the run or resetting and doing the same or maybe running for a first down or maybe throwing it away rather than up for grabs. Sheeeesh.

[texaspackerbacker]

We might be having a 20 post continuing argument over a very narrow gap.

Bobble, who watched O line play as closely as anyone we have here (I am not sure if Nutz has weighed in), thinks Bach is slightly overrated. That he isn't a shut down, close the door, set it and forget it LT like Clifton or Jason Peters.

But he does feel he is good. Worth the investment of his second contract if I remember correctly. Don't know how he feels about a third.

So its possible that the real argument here is between a Top 7 LT (2019 was a down year esp early so probably not true for for 2019 alone) and Top 15.

My feeling is that he can play at an elite level but rules emphasis and injuries hampered him in 2019. He does not dominate in the run game but is mobile enough to be effective in a ZBS and is better at pass pro.

If you remember Newhouse or Barbre or Colledge trying to play LT, I think you want him back though perhaps not at elite dollars.

I guess I mostly agree with this - a very narrow gap hahahahaha. A couple of things: if you're hampered by "rules emphasis" more than others in the same position, that kinda says something about you. I was shocked to find out in the course of this discussion that Bakhtiari ALREADY makes $12 million a year. However, even if it's arguable that he has been worth that much - I arguably would argue, no, he clearly is on the downside, and it wouldn't be smart to pay him that much on a new contract.

Yeah, I remember Newhouse or Barbre or Colledge trying to play LT, and I won't say one word in their defense, and yes, even I will concede that Bakhtiari was an upgrade. Remember this also, though, all of those either overlapped Aaron Rodgers or played their whole Packer career with Rodgers, not to even mention Favre. In other words, the Packers were damn good even with those guys at LT - a very narrow gap from with Bakhtiari. Thus, the bottom line for me is that Aaron Rodgers simply doesn't need much quality of pass blocking to excel that nobody else. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he plays better running for his life like he almost always has had to.

[mraynrand]

Yeah, he holds it longer hahahahahaha ...... and what is he doing all those seconds? Just standing around stewing about making a decision - "to throw or not to throw, that is the question"? Hell no, he's running for his life trying to escape the slings of arrows coming in over Bakhtiari more than anywhere else, then either slinging an arrow on his own while on the run or resetting and doing the same or maybe running for a first down or maybe throwing it away rather than up for grabs. Sheeeesh.

That’s fine. Stay impervious to facts and just spout more nonsensical bullshit. It suits you.

[bobblehead]

We might be having a 20 post continuing argument over a very narrow gap.

Bobble, who watched O line play as closely as anyone we have here (I am not sure if Nutz has weighed in), thinks Bach is slightly overrated. That he isn't a shut down, close the door, set it and forget it LT like Clifton or Jason Peters.

But he does feel he is good. Worth the investment of his second contract if I remember correctly. Don't know how he feels about a third.

So its possible that the real argument here is between a Top 7 LT (2019 was a down year esp early so probably not true for for 2019 alone) and Top 15.

My feeling is that he can play at an elite level but rules emphasis and injuries hampered him in 2019. He does not dominate in the run game but is mobile enough to be effective in a ZBS and is better at pass pro.

If you remember Newhouse or Barbre or Colledge trying to play LT, I think you want him back though perhaps not at elite dollars.

You sum up my opinion pretty good. (huh...someone actually reads my drivel). I think the new holding rules hurt Bak early last year as much as injury. He adjusted. I absolutely want him on another contract as OL tend to be able to play at advanced age unless injuries take a toll on the body. The only way you don't sign Bak to another 3 years is if one of the youngsters has shown such skill in practice that you feel good having him at LT. We have some athletes on the roster, but lets see if that translates into the desire to win every play that it takes to play LT in the NFL.

[bobblehead]

I guess I mostly agree with this - a very narrow gap hahahahaha. A couple of things: if you're hampered by "rules emphasis" more than others in the same position, that kinda says something about you. I was shocked to find out in the course of this discussion that Bakhtiari ALREADY makes $12 million a year. However, even if it's arguable that he has been worth that much - I arguably would argue, no, he clearly is on the downside, and it wouldn't be smart to pay him that much on a new contract.

Yeah, I remember Newhouse or Barbre or Colledge trying to play LT, and I won't say one word in their defense, and yes, even I will concede that Bakhtiari was an upgrade. Remember this also, though, all of those either overlapped Aaron Rodgers or played their whole Packer career with Rodgers, not to even mention Favre. In other words, the Packers were damn good even with those guys at LT - a very narrow gap from with Bakhtiari. Thus, the bottom line for me is that Aaron Rodgers simply doesn't need much quality of pass blocking to excel that nobody else. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he plays better running for his life like he almost always has had to.

Tex, there are only 4-5 BETTER LTs in the league than Bak. 3-5 equal. So worst case he is a top 10 LT. My arguments in the past were with people saying he was Trent Williams (who I hope is slipping now that SF landed him). Fan(atics) that were telling me he was the great wall of china and the best LT in the league. I like the fact he actually can run block some. Clifton was downright inept. Clifton on the other hand was the wall in pass set. You want Bak back. The odds of the next guy to man that position being better than him are small.

[Bretsky]

I've always considered Bach a top 15 LT. And I just don't think you let that walk. Maybe he's 8,12, or 15. Either way you gotta keep that on your team.

[texaspackerbacker]

Tex, there are only 4-5 BETTER LTs in the league than Bak. 3-5 equal. So worst case he is a top 10 LT. My arguments in the past were with people saying he was Trent Williams (who I hope is slipping now that SF landed him). Fan(atics) that were telling me he was the great wall of china and the best LT in the league. I like the fact he actually can run block some. Clifton was downright inept. Clifton on the other hand was the wall in pass set. You want Bak back. The odds of the next guy to man that position being better than him are small.

I doubt Bakhtiari was anywhere near that good when he was at his best, and he seems to be deteriorating in the past couple of seasons. As I have said, ya'all are probably gonna get your wish, and the Packers will overpay to keep him. I hope not, though.