What are "Packer People"

[Patler]

I've read a number of references to this term from articles last spring, and I think posters on here have a misunderstanding of how it was used.

The Packers have not used it with reference to moral character of the players. It was used to reference players that wanted to be Packers, and players that are consumed by football.

Even Koran Robinson might meet that standard. Certainly Ahman Green does, even with his problems. Cory Rodgers may have too, handgun and all.

[Badgepack]

I think that "Packer People" also means being upstanding citizens

[Patler]

I think that "Packer People" also means being upstanding citizens

That's what you WANT it to mean, but its not how the Packers used it. They used it only as I referenced above, unless I missed something somewhere.

[Rastak]

I think that "Packer People" also means being upstanding citizens

That's what you WANT it to mean, but its not how the Packers used it. They used it only as I referenced above, unless I missed something somewhere.


Patler, given their most recent signing you MUST be correct in that interpitation.

[jack's smirking revenge]

They are not of the Neaderthal branch of evolution. Nor are they simply Homo Sapien. They are a different breed, born of cheese, gold and fire. Some suggest they are from another planet, probably creatures that architected and manufactured the pyramids. I tend to think the "Packer People" are a extremely advanced and evolved branch of humankind that have the ability to drink tankards of beer, eat lots of fattening brats and weather decades of humiliation. Some would suggest that they are an alien race. Some call them "homers".

But I call them "my people", united by a common love of the greatest American football team on the planet.

tyler

(What are they? Like one definition will work....)

[jack's smirking revenge]

Oh, you're specifically talking about players. Again, like one definition works... I think you have to pick the players that will offer you the best chance of success. I personally don't believe in the "Packer People" label when it comes to players. Players are players. Some will have high morals like Reggie White; some will be brash and flash like Andre Rison. I personally wasn't on the same page with Reggie and his preaching, but I loved the way he played.

tyler

[Fritz]

I thought it was used in reference to the meat-packing profession. Packer people were, well, people who packed. Meat, that is.

Uh oh. This is getting troublesome.

[Patler]

Patler, given their most recent signing you MUST be correct in that interpitation.

Rastak;

I know you are really down on this action by GB, but I have to ask a few questions. If I'm not mistaken, you spoke very highly of Robinson last year and of the Vikings decision to sign him to a lucrative extension last Spring, in spite of his history in Seattle. The Packers are not in any different situation than the Vikings were last year when they originally signed him, except that he relapsed again.

Why is it any more wrong for GB to give him another chance than it was for the Vikings at the start of 2005? Is it REALLY any different?

Are you perhaps just bitter because now he crapped on your picnic table?

What makes the chance with the Vikings the last chance he should get? Why shouldn't his last chance have been with Seattle, or why shouldn't it be with GB?

I guess I'm just confused by your seeming support last year (if I remember correctly) and your vehement contempt now.

[NewsBruin]

When I heard it (around just before the beginning of the 06 draft), I thought it meant:

"People who really like playing football, who don't need someone else to hype them up in the preseason, opening game, late stretch, or postseason. People who devote themselves to being their best as football players. People who believe in themselves and their teammates, who have their home lives and self-esteem already established and wouldn't cause team embarrassment in public. Peope who will rub off on the negative teammates, instead of the other way around."

I rembember the Rison signing, and it worked, because we had a lockerroom that was unified, positive, and had key leaders on both sides of the ball. We had among our "name" superstars, a young, funloving, offensive leader, and an older, respected defensive statesmen. We could take in a risk (and I was very concerned), because we would change him by being good company.

I just think this is too soon to take in players with personal demons. I don't see the lockerroom leaders right now, but I do see folks who could become them, if we groom them to be such and keep them in an environment that believes in excellence and optimism.

I don't know what did it, and I don't know if it came all the way from the Rhodes era, but at some point, we lost our lockerroom unity and leadership. I think that's what pushed me that Sherman wasn't getting the job done. Not the W-L record, but that our defense and offense were often at odds with each other, and our defensive veterans were not motivated to give it their all.

I'd like to see the leadership help establish Favre and Henderson play the Reggie White/Sean Jones role, while Hawk and Hodge would be this decade's Brett Favre.

[Rastak]

Patler, given their most recent signing you MUST be correct in that interpitation.

Rastak;

I know you are really down on this action by GB, but I have to ask a few questions. If I'm not mistaken, you spoke very highly of Robinson last year and of the Vikings decision to sign him to a lucrative extension last Spring, in spite of his history in Seattle. The Packers are not in any different situation than the Vikings were last year when they originally signed him, except that he relapsed again.

Why is it any more wrong for GB to give him another chance than it was for the Vikings at the start of 2005? Is it REALLY any different?

Are you perhaps just bitter because now he crapped on your picnic table?

What makes the chance with the Vikings the last chance he should get? Why shouldn't his last chance have been with Seattle, or why shouldn't it be with GB?

I guess I'm just confused by your seeming support last year (if I remember correctly) and your vehement contempt now.

Ok, here's my take, this subject has been beaten to death so I'll try and make it my last comment. Koren was given a second chance in Minnesota. He recieved a million dollar roster bonus and the FIRST NIGHT AWAY FROM CAMP, he gets legally drunk, drives 104 mph, then accelerates to 120 as he flees police on a public highway. Given his history that was appauling.


The fact anyone would sign him before his legal situation is resolved absolutely blows my mind. Once he got out of jail and served his one year suspension (which I just can't see him avoiding) and he got cleaned up I'd be ok with someone giving him a chance. I'm surprised he and his agent were even willing to sign at this time. Anyway, if you guys are comfortable with him, that's fine. I'd much rather he embarrass your favorite team than mine with his outrageous behavior.

Do you understand where I'm coming from here?

[mngolf19]

And to add to Rastak's take. This is his 3rd chance, not second. And I constantly hear about what a bad org the Vikings are, and how good the Packers are. Well, I think this is either incorrect or changing.

[Patler]

Do you understand where I'm coming from here?

Not entirely, because as I recall he had some pending legal matters when the Vikings first signed him in the summer of 2005. Seattle had given him numerous chances as well. MN was not a "second chance", just new scenery and different bars, apparently.

It seems your abrupt change is based a lot on disappoinment, and that's understandable. It happens in the families of addicts, too. Sometimes they respond more harshly to their own than to outsiders.

[Rastak]

Do you understand where I'm coming from here?

Not entirely, because as I recall he had some pending legal matters when the Vikings first signed him in the summer of 2005. Seattle had given him numerous chances as well. MN was not a "second chance", just new scenery and different bars, apparently.

It seems your abrupt change is based a lot on disappoinment, and that's understandable. It happens in the families of addicts, too. Sometimes they respond more harshly to their own than to outsiders.

I think his legal troubles were resolved at the time he was signed....but Tice did call him while he was in treatment which is pretty stupid also.

And yea, it's disappointing, I was rooting for the guy. Given his outrageous behavior isn't an "abrupt change" warrented?

[RashanGary]

I like the signing. We've got him for minimum wage and he has probowl talent on ST's along with being a good #3 WC reciever.

As far as morals go, I'm not too worried. If he does somethign stupid, we cut him and lose nothing. I see no problem with it at all. It could be a PR problem some day but people will love the Packers even if KR gets another DUI. I see no risk from the Packers perspective.

[Patler]

And yea, it's disappointing, I was rooting for the guy. Given his outrageous behavior isn't an "abrupt change" warrented?

I'm not sure an abrupt change in your attitude is warranted, because his behavior wasn't an abrupt change, just more of the same. He had traffic violations in Seattle for speeds in excess of 100 mph too. He had well documented drinking problems. It's really no different. It just hasn't stopped.

I hate giving up on people. Many substance abusers have one or more relapses before they beat their addictions. I really do detest what he did, though. I have friends and relatives all over that area, who may have been on the road when he was. Not that they are more important than any other person, but they are more important to me.

I really wish we could develope the anti-alcoholism "majic bullet". It is a pervasive condition in many places.

[RashanGary]

I think "Packer People" are hard workers who just love to play football. Moral issues arn't as important as what they bring to the field. Just rough, tough, instinctive football players. The type of player who finds a way to return a kick for a TD. A LB who always seems to win his individual battles and get to the ball. Just strait up, old school football players. I think that is Packer people.

What they do off the field is less important as what they do an it although it does play a part. Robinson is a minimum guy. We pay for his services as long as we have him and then cut him and only have to pay for the weeks we had. It's a good deal for us and he got hsi bonus from Minn.

You think that good football players are something that everyone looks for but look at Mike Sherman's drafts. I think Thompson wants to be the anti Mike Sherman when it comes to drafting and getting players. I hope anyway :)

[Green Bud Packer]

i hope this signing works as well as the gil brown signing.

[Bretsky]

I've read a number of references to this term from articles last spring, and I think posters on here have a misunderstanding of how it was used.

The Packers have not used it with reference to moral character of the players. It was used to reference players that wanted to be Packers, and players that are consumed by football.

Even Koran Robinson might meet that standard. Certainly Ahman Green does, even with his problems. Cory Rodgers may have too, handgun and all.

Good, then my buddy in Cincy can still come to GB someday. :mrgreen:

[retailguy]

Good, then my buddy in Cincy can still come to GB someday. :mrgreen:


NEVER NEVER NEVER...... :shock: :mad: :mrgreen:

[MJZiggy]

I really wish we could develope the anti-alcoholism "majic bullet". It is a pervasive condition in many places.

Isn't there supposed to be some sort of pill you can take that makes you sick as a dog if you have even one drink? Or was that for something else?

[Patler]

I've read a number of references to this term from articles last spring, and I think posters on here have a misunderstanding of how it was used.

The Packers have not used it with reference to moral character of the players. It was used to reference players that wanted to be Packers, and players that are consumed by football.

Even Koran Robinson might meet that standard. Certainly Ahman Green does, even with his problems. Cory Rodgers may have too, handgun and all.

Good, then my buddy in Cincy can still come to GB someday. :mrgreen:

Nah, he probably doesn't want to be here, so by definition he isn't "Packer People"! :mrgreen:

[woodbuck27]

I've read a number of references to this term from articles last spring, and I think posters on here have a misunderstanding of how it was used.

The Packers have not used it with reference to moral character of the players. It was used to reference players that wanted to be Packers, and players that are consumed by football.

Even Koran Robinson might meet that standard. Certainly Ahman Green does, even with his problems. Cory Rodgers may have too, handgun and all.

If YOU were Ted Thompson Patler that post would make sense to me. :mrgreen:

Now of course...your not Ted Thompson... so that post makes ZERO sense to me. Maybe I'm a tad slow relative to being able to grasp your position here?

This isn't an attack on YOU Patler. As any follow - up regarding the punter thread thing of yesterday.

In fact, I went back and radically edited that post entirely with your status here " in mind " just some 10 minutes ago.

I'm not kissing YOUR ass either. :mrgreen:

My take on Packer People. Patler:

I believe that...

"Packer people ".... has to do with people players and Coach's accepted by the GREEN BAY PACKERS and attending staff utilizing proper care, attention and overall for "the good" of the Packer team and organization. .positiveness or GOOD .

Good, as in RIGHTFUL respect and behaviour. It has to do with examining who you are in respect to putting out the time/energy and dedication needed to produce as a Packer team member and personaly through effort and reults that contribute +vely to the better whole for, not against Packer TEAM objectives and exercising proper comportment.

Packer people will not embarass themselves or the Traditions of " the Green Bay Packer Organization".

It's not about breaking any LAW's or beating up anyone or speeding in an auto while intoxicated and ever lieing or avoiding the TRUTH or consequences of that action. It's about doing RIGHT by the Green Bay Packers, as a WHOLE.

It's about... if you make a mistake? Then deal with it as necessary for YOU the player etc. but moreso with the dignity and respect for Green Bay Packer Traditions.

Packer peope are in Green Bay to carry on a tradition, of winning and service that is +ve to the Community of Green Bay Wisconsin.To continue to ensure Packer fan respect and proper pride.

Packer people will easily be respected by Packer fans. An outstanding example of what Packer People is can be found in Donald Driver.His dedication and sevice as a Packer player and how he represents himself to the community and the Packer fans at large.

The BEST Football Fans in the entire NFL, expect alot that's very very good and NO BS considering what OUR Packers are paid, to represent OUR BELOVED TEAM and the PACKER Organization.

Yes of course Packer people will excell as dedicated to improving and producing as Packers on the field.

Packer people play hard ,hit hard,run hard and play with one focus...to win regular season football games for respect of the Packer fans, who OWN the Team and all other Packer Fans from around the world.

As human beings we make errors. We screw up, but have to not be in denial of errors and ways that are wrong to destructive, and admit faults and work to change them. Packer people answer to any errors as need be.

In your explanation you give no speific definition as to what "Packer People" are?

In fact... I too have no REAL idea of what that means specifically.

I have never seen a definition of Packer People but in a sense the above covers it. I TRUST. :mrgreen:

[Patler]

Woodbuck;

"Packer People" is a term that TT and MM used a number of times early this year, when MM was hired and around draft time. Just for the heck of it, I went back and re-read the quotes from them when they used the term, to see what they meant by "Packer People".

It doesn't matter what I think it SHOULD mean, what you think it SHOULD mean or what anyone else thinks it SHOULD mean. I was simply reporting how it seemed the term was being used by TT and MM. After all, that's why it hit the media, because they used it somewhat frequently for a short time.

If people want to criticize whether TT or MM has lived up to their promise to bring in "Packer People" we should do so using their definition of it, not ours. If they meet their standard, they haven't lied to us, whether or not they meet our standard. We may think their standard is inadequate, but that is a totally different question.

[woodbuck27]

Woodbuck;

"Packer People" is a term that TT and MM used a number of times early this year, when MM was hired and around draft time. Just for the heck of it, I went back and re-read the quotes from them when they used the term, to see what they meant by "Packer People".

It doesn't matter what I think it SHOULD mean, what you think it SHOULD mean or what anyone else thinks it SHOULD mean. I was simply reporting how it seemed the term was being used by TT and MM. After all, that's why it hit the media, because they used it somewhat frequently for a short time.

If people want to criticize whether TT or MM has lived up to their promise to bring in "Packer People" we should do so using their definition of it, not ours. If they meet their standard, they haven't lied to us, whether or not they meet our standard. We may think their standard is inadequate, but that is a totally different question.

Patler:

As a Green Bay Packer fan, I exist in a confusing time in Green Bay Packer History.

Alot of what I endure today as a Packer fan, definitely rubs me "the wrong way".

OUR TEAM is in a REAL mess.

[BEARMAN]

Go on and tell them ,... no, no, no, hush, ... Go on tell them, they asked, ... No, no, shhhh, Go on thell them they deserve it, ... no, no, shut up, ... TELL THEM ! , ... I can't, they will bann me... :cry:


GO BEARS !

[Patler]

Patler:

As a Green Bay Packer fan, I exist in a confusing time in Green Bay Packer History.

Alot of what I endure today as a Packer fan, definitely rubs me "the wrong way".

OUR TEAM is in a REAL mess.

Nah. You were around for the Forrest Gregg years. THAT was a real mess. The Packers of 2006 aren't there yet, and hopefully won't be.

[packinpatland]

The term "Packer People" as I see it, should refer to a player or coach that is "Lombardi-like", in their work ethic and in their morals, on and off the field, during the season and off season.

[MJZiggy]

Only if you keep in mind that Lombardi, though he was a great coach and GM, was no angel.

[Rastak]

Only if you keep in mind that Lombardi, though he was a great coach and GM, was no angel.


Didn't his son basically say he completely ignored his family?

1) If I just commited an extreme act of blasphamy I retract it.
2) If I'm wrong I retract it.


But I do recall hearing an interview with his son where he sort of ripped him....not real bad but enough....oh hell we all have faults so let's give the dead guy a pass. Dead legend I mean.

[woodbuck27]

The term "Packer People" as I see it, should refer to a player or coach that is "Lombardi-like", in their work ethic and in their morals, on and off the field, during the season and off season.

TOTALLY ... BANG ON !!

To " the Lombardi Packers ".

[woodbuck27]

Patler:

As a Green Bay Packer fan, I exist in a confusing time in Green Bay Packer History.

Alot of what I endure today as a Packer fan, definitely rubs me "the wrong way".

OUR TEAM is in a REAL mess.

Nah. You were around for the Forrest Gregg years. THAT was a real mess. The Packers of 2006 aren't there yet, and hopefully won't be.

Man your cruel. :mrgreen:

[packinpatland]

Easy to say bad things after the man is gone. I was never too impressed with anything I've read coming from Lombardi's son.

Overall, Lombardi did insist on a level of decency and moral integrity on his team.

[woodbuck27]

Go on and tell them ,... no, no, no, hush, ... Go on tell them, they asked, ... No, no, shhhh, Go on thell them they deserve it, ... no, no, shut up, ... TELL THEM ! , ... I can't, they will bann me... :cry:


GO BEARS !

Careful BEARMAN !!

We've got Dyn O Mite

GO PACK GOooo . . .

[Rastak]

Easy to say bad things after the man is gone. I was never too impressed with anything I've read coming from Lombardi's son.

Overall, Lombardi did insist on a level of decency and moral integrity on his team.


Sure, I would agree, but wouldn't he have a better idea of the man than anyone else other than perhaps his wife?

[woodbuck27]

Only if you keep in mind that Lombardi, though he was a great coach and GM, was no angel.


Didn't his son basically say he completely ignored his family?

1) If I just commited an extreme act of blasphamy I retract it.
2) If I'm wrong I retract it.


But I do recall hearing an interview with his son where he sort of ripped him....not real bad but enough....oh hell we all have faults so let's give the dead guy a pass. Dead legend I mean.

Rastak. . . just retract it. . .fast :mrgreen: X 10.

It's certainly... TIME to laugh !!

[MJZiggy]

Problem is, Wood, he's not wrong. I read his biography, When Pride Still Mattered last spring (which by the way is a MUST read) and he was not a great family man. Used to berate his wife in front of the team as well and after games would invite the players back to his house to party and drink in his basement bar. He also treated the children of his players better than his own kids.

[Rastak]

Problem is, Wood, he's not wrong. I read his biography, When Pride Still Mattered last spring (which by the way is a MUST read) and he was not a great family man. Used to berate his wife in front of the team as well and after games would invite the players back to his house to party and drink in his basement bar. He also treated the children of his players better than his own kids.


I should read that....when I was a little kid everyone thought he was the shitz...one thing there isn't a question about, that dude could coach.

[woodbuck27]

Problem is, Wood, he's not wrong. I read his biography, When Pride Still Mattered last spring (which by the way is a MUST read) and he was not a great family man. Used to berate his wife in front of the team as well and after games would invite the players back to his house to party and drink in his basement bar. He also treated the children of his players better than his own kids.

I've been a Packer fan longer than you've breathed MJ.

Did I say Rastak was wrong? Nope !!! Didn't say (write that). Certainly didn't.

AGAIN MJ ... READ PLEASE. :mrgreen:

Vince wasn't Billy Graham. .for sure MJ. He wasn't JFK either.



I followed his entire career with the Packers and read all I could on " this Legendary Packer - LEADER".

[falco]

Problem is, Wood, he's not wrong. I read his biography, When Pride Still Mattered last spring (which by the way is a MUST read) and he was not a great family man. Used to berate his wife in front of the team as well and after games would invite the players back to his house to party and drink in his basement bar. He also treated the children of his players better than his own kids.


I should read that....when I was a little kid everyone thought he was the shitz...one thing there isn't a question about, that dude could coach.

When I was taking the capstone course of business degree, the chair of the dept brought in a former student and now bigtime CEO to speak for the class. He spent most of his time explaining how Lombardi's book was the basis for his management style.

[Kiwon]

"Packer People" is a term that TT and MM used a number of times early this year, when MM was hired and around draft time. Just for the heck of it, I went back and re-read the quotes from them when they used the term, to see what they meant by "Packer People".


Patler, I questioned the use of this phrase earlier because it is so nebulous. If there is an official Packer lexicon then I wish they would post it on their website. I really don't care that much but I'm not a big fan of throw away phrases. It's better to just go ahead and clearly state what exactly you mean.

More than this, my beef with TT and MM is the issue of "rebuilding." They said they weren't in January, but how can one explain the approach during free agency and roster management? A case can be made that they aren't (veteran free agent signees) but the weight of evidence states otherwise.

[Guiness]

Something (new? I haven't seen it metioned yet) in the Krob discussion occured to me.




It seems your abrupt change is based a lot on disappoinment, and that's understandable. It happens in the families of addicts, too. Sometimes they respond more harshly to their own than to outsiders.

Patler, I think you may have hit upon something here, and it may explain Rastak's strong feelings, and the willingness of some people here to accept KRob.

A Viking fan would feel betrayed by Koren. He was in a bad place, they offered him another chance. He then turned around and bit them - the knee jerk reaction is 'get out of here you mangy, unappreciative mutt'.

From our perspective, we're taking in an individual who needs help. He hasn't done anything to us, so why should we judge him?

Here's a question Patler: do you think the Vikings were justified in realeasing Koren? Do you think they should've?

[HarveyWallbangers]

This dirt on Lombardi is stupid. I'd bet 1/2 the coaches in the history of the game would say they weren't great family man. What kind of family man can you be when you are in the office for 16 hours/day for 6 months out of the year.

[MJZiggy]

I'm not saying that Lombardi wasn't a great coach and GM, etc. I'm just saying that to hold him up in this particular conversation as someone who only allowed "decent" people on his team is a bit problematic. Didn't McGee play in the title game after going out all night on a true bender? He wasn't suspended and like I said, after games, Lombardi himself hosted the parties. I doubt he collected keys at the door. Here's the interesting question. Might Lombardi, with the team in it's present state have brought KR in himself? Just a thought

Also, on a side note I wonder if anyone else noticed that on the very day JSO posts an article lambasting Thompson for bringing in an alcoholic, they debuted on the football page a photo of a man drinking a beer soliciting the best tailgating parties? Does anyone find this excruciatingly hypocritical?

[HarveyWallbangers]

Also, on a side note I wonder if anyone else noticed that on the very day JSO posts an article lambasting Thompson for bringing in an alcoholic, they debuted on the football page a photo of a man drinking a beer soliciting the best tailgating parties? Does anyone find this excruciatingly hypocritical?

Not really. Alcohol in and of itself isn't the issue here. The abuse of it is. Quite honestly, I'm surprised that you'd be all for this Ziggy. I don't know if it's because you are Miss Positivity or what, but where would you draw the line? There has to be some line. If Rae Carruth was let out of prison tomorrow, I'd bet most people here wouldn't want him on the team. Or some convicted rapist or whatever. I guess each individual has a line, but it differs for every individual. I'm willing to give a guy three strikes. This last incident for KoRo was strike three.

[Patler]

Here's a question Patler: do you think the Vikings were justified in realeasing Koren? Do you think they should've?

I don't think the Vikings had any choice except to release him. After all the separate incidents that have dogged them the past few years, they had no choice but to take a firm stand. A team can stand only so much of that junk, as the Packers know from their own situations in the past.

[MJZiggy]

I never said I was all for it. Last week when it was rumored it would happen, I figured it would and I understand the futility of railing against something I cannot control. Would I have hired him? I honestly can't say. He has a prior relationship with TT and they know each other. He is a stranger to me. I haven't met his wife or seen his baby. I might or might not have been swayed by a discussion with him. I can't tell you because I haven't had one. I have known a few alcoholics in my day. Some have beaten it. I also knew some social drinkers who I wish could put down that bottle. One thing I do know is that each individual is unique and deserves his chances based on his current position. KR is not in a great position with the law, but perhaps this was his rock bottom. Maybe the lip service he paid to the Vikings is now genuine. I have no way of knowing as I haven't spoken with him, but TT has. I have no choice but to accept his judgment and move on because I have no say in what he does. If you want to understand how little say you have in the matter, just take a look at Matt Millen and I'm sure you'll understand.

I am far closer to Patler's point of view than anyone else's here. I just don't know, but I'm trying to ask enough questions so I know where I stand.

Edit: I'll take KRob over Porter any day.

[Guiness]

Here's a question Patler: do you think the Vikings were justified in realeasing Koren? Do you think they should've?

I don't think the Vikings had any choice except to release him. After all the separate incidents that have dogged them the past few years, they had no choice but to take a firm stand. A team can stand only so much of that junk, as the Packers know from their own situations in the past.

Fair enough - I made that comment in the other thread; I felt the Vikins have had a bad run of public incidents with their players, and the Pack hasn't. We can affoard a loss of a couple Karma points if it doesn't work out, they can't.

[GrnBay007]

Patler, I just love when you start these discussions. I bet you loved Philosophy classes..........."who am I?", freedom and determinism, moral "truth" v. moral relativity, forgiveness and justice, and what makes life worth living . . .

:D

[Patler]

Patler, I just love when you start these discussions. I bet you loved Philosophy classes..........."who am I?", freedom and determinism, moral "truth" v. moral relativity, forgiveness and justice, and what makes life worth living . . .

:D

Thanks, I enjoy discussions that make me think and question myself and my own beliefs. As for pholosophy classes, I never really had a significant one! Educationally, I was strictly a hard sciences guy, with hours and hours in labs. I branched out after my initial degrees with classes in other areas, but nothing more than introductory philosphy classes. I was more concerned with what I perceived to be education required for my day to day performance at work. Only in the last 10 years or so have I developed a keen interest for philosophy and the arts. I continue to learn.

[woodbuck27]

Problem is, Wood, he's not wrong. I read his biography, When Pride Still Mattered last spring (which by the way is a MUST read) and he was not a great family man. Used to berate his wife in front of the team as well and after games would invite the players back to his house to party and drink in his basement bar. He also treated the children of his players better than his own kids.


"and after games would invite the players back to his house to party and drink in his basement bar" MJZiggy

MJ I've done that more than a few times.

I will be on my knees at bedtime... praying for forgiveness.