Organizational failures /Organizational successes with regard to personnel

[Spaulding]

Okay, maybe a bit jaded the Packers didn't add a DL or WR before the trade window closed but I wanted input on the Packers of the last few decades and their ability to put players in positions to succeed.

Given the changes in front office and coaching over the years I wonder if it's the organization as a whole and a reoccurring lack of maximizing player talents or simply late bloomers.

I know other teams regret final cutdown failures and

Off the top of my head (maybe focusing on the failures and not the success stories) the following players come to mind that went on to great success with other teams:

- Casey Hayward (great success and multiple pro bowls with the Chargers)
- Michah Hyde (great success and multiple pro bowls with the Bills)

To a lesser degree (and likely too early to call), the following link to an article suggests that two former Packer LB's are the best players to play that position for the Giants in the years:

- https://nfltraderumors.co/nfc-notes-cowboys-giants-packers-4/

- Jared Cook for the Raiders and now Saints seems to be excellent TE for a team that has been starved since Finley's injury and retirement


Off the top of my head (and why I was looking for input as I'm sure I'm missing many) the only impact player that seemed to have no prior history of success was Gilbert Brown. I know Howard Green was clutch in the title year but I guess I'm looking more so for impact type players versus just solid additions. I also didn't count Kurt Warner given it was too far back and at least that move made sense given you had Favre/Brunell/Detmer ahead of him.

Thanks in advance for any input.

[run pMc]

Heyward, Hyde and Cook weren't cuts, they were FA's who signed deals GB wasn't going to match.
Heyward was hurt a lot and somewhat miscast in Capers' scheme. Hyde was a CB without speed, so they played him in a utility type role. He was great at punt returns, but during his time in GB there wasn't much to indicate he was a pro bowl safety. He played a little safety at Iowa and didn't grade out well.

Letting Cook go was a mistake, but most thought getting Bennett (a better blocker/all around TE) was an upgrade. The mistake is easy to see in hindsight.

I actually think GB has been pretty good about letting players go at/near the right time -- with a few exceptions (Cook, Heyward, Hyde). Marco Rivera, Greg Jennings, Jordy, Davon House, Desmond Bishop. Bulaga is hurt this year, Martinez and Fackrell are ok but Krys Barnes is basically doing what Martinez is at a fraction of the cap space.

Are you asking for players they've found and developed? You could throw Tramon and Sam Shields in there. Mark Tauscher (he was a R7 pick, not a UDFA). Allen Lazard. Maybe Raven Greene and Krys Barnes. Hell, they got more out of Evan Dietrich-Smith than they did from Jeff Saturday. UDFA impact players are very rare.

I think they are 'ok' at finding players from a personnel standpoint; I'm not sure about developing and maximizing them from a coaching standpoint, however.

[Upnorth]

I think our biggest disfunction is defensive scheme.
For the majority of the last decade anyway. 2008 to 2010 we were solid then at best below average until 2019 and now sigh.

Someone should bump the Pickett thread. Ever since he left we suck.

[Spaulding]

Heyward, Hyde and Cook weren't cuts, they were FA's who signed deals GB wasn't going to match.
Heyward was hurt a lot and somewhat miscast in Capers' scheme. Hyde was a CB without speed, so they played him in a utility type role. He was great at punt returns, but during his time in GB there wasn't much to indicate he was a pro bowl safety. He played a little safety at Iowa and didn't grade out well.

Letting Cook go was a mistake, but most thought getting Bennett (a better blocker/all around TE) was an upgrade. The mistake is easy to see in hindsight.

I actually think GB has been pretty good about letting players go at/near the right time -- with a few exceptions (Cook, Heyward, Hyde). Marco Rivera, Greg Jennings, Jordy, Davon House, Desmond Bishop. Bulaga is hurt this year, Martinez and Fackrell are ok but Krys Barnes is basically doing what Martinez is at a fraction of the cap space.

Are you asking for players they've found and developed? You could throw Tramon and Sam Shields in there. Mark Tauscher (he was a R7 pick, not a UDFA). Allen Lazard. Maybe Raven Greene and Krys Barnes. Hell, they got more out of Evan Dietrich-Smith than they did from Jeff Saturday. UDFA impact players are very rare.

I think they are 'ok' at finding players from a personnel standpoint; I'm not sure about developing and maximizing them from a coaching standpoint, however.

I'm specifically referring to players that appeared average at best while with the Packers and then went on to better things with other teams. Thus not including our own draft choices or post draft signees like Shields as the Packers were his first NFL team and thus hadn't had success elsewhere.

I didn't include Tramon Williams either as although he had been signed by the Texans I don't know that he ever made the final 53 roster or play a game for them. I might however add Kuhn to the Packers list of success stories given he was limited while with the Steelers and seemed to shine for the Pack.

To clarify, looking to note Packer roster player that went on greater success after leaving the Packers and vice versa. Just seems like we're on the wrong end of these success stories and wondering if it's an organizational thing (especially on defense) that fails to put players in the best position to succeed. Heck, you could add the head case Demarious Randall to the list as he was always a better safety and yet the Packers seemed set on playing him at DB.

[Smidgeon]

I think our biggest disfunction is defensive scheme.
For the majority of the last decade anyway. 2008 to 2010 we were solid then at best below average until 2019 and now sigh.

Someone should bump the Pickett thread. Ever since he left we suck.

I'm convinced our biggest dysfunction is defensive line talent. Doesn't matter the scheme (well it does, but the scheme isn't 100% why we're getting run over). The DEs can't hold a gap. They can't. And Pettine's scheme is based on keeping it all in front of you. Eliminate explosive plays, make them earn every yard. The personnel is there for DT, OLBs, ILBs, CBs, and Ss. It isn't there for DEs.

And if the DEs can't even hold a gap (they can't), you get run on and hope the LBs clean it up. And you put the OLBs in contain to protect the line. And you put the CBs back to give them the angles watch the CBs and the RB (I'm guessing on that one). With a competent dline all the way across, I suspect Pettine gets more aggressive because he doesn't have to adjust for having a one man line.

[Patler]

I'm specifically referring to players that appeared average at best while with the Packers and then went on to better things with other teams. Thus not including draft choices or post draft signees like Shields as the Packers was his first NFL team and thus hadn't had success elsewhere.

I didn't include Tramon Williams either as although he had been signed by the Texans I don't know that he ever made the final 53 roster or play a game for them. I might however add Kuhn to the Packers list of success stories given he was limited while with the Steelers and seemed to shine for the Pack.

To clarify, looking to note Packer roster player that went on greater success after leaving the Packers and vice versa. Just seems like we're on the wrong end of these success stories and wondering if it's an organizational thing (especially on defense) that fails to put players in the best position to succeed. Heck, you could add the head case Demarious Randall to the list as he was always a better safety and yet the Packers seemed set on playing him at DB.

It seems to me the criteria you have set is guaranteed to make the Packers look bad. Historically, they give opportunities to a lot of rookies, both drafted and undrafted. They don't sign a lot of free agents from other teams. Of course there will be more players with Packer experience scattered around the league than there are Packer players with previous experience elsewhere. You skew the results even more by arbitrarily ignoring players like Shields or Williams as positives for GB, but counting Randall as a mistake.

Including Randall as a Packer mistake is really puzzling. He was a good player for the Packers, who was traded because of attitude, personality, whatever. He was a good player for Cleveland but they let him leave because of attitude, personality, whatever even though all he got as a FA was a one year contract from the Raiders. The Raiders cut him without playing, and he has been on and off the Seahawks active roster since. He isn't one who "got away". Getting a QB prospect (albeit being Kizer) and draft pick improvements doesn't look bad in retrospect. Cleveland will get nothing.

Lazard was signed off the Jags PS, T. Williams had signed a 3 yr contract with the Texans, but released. So what if they hadn't made the 53 man rosters? Did their previous teams make lesser mistakes than if they had put them on their 53, or did they just make the mistakes earlier?

But, if you want former Packers with careers elsewhere; Vonta Leach, JC Tretter, Breno Giacomini, Dave Tollefson, Lawrence Guy, Mike Pennel. Vonta Leach might be the worst mistake, numerous All-Pro seasons. Widely considered the best blocking fullback in the league for quite a few seasons.

[Spaulding]

I've evidently muddled things a bit. I'm not trying to speak to late route Packer draft choices (as TT had more than his far share of prior players making other team rosters and thus pretty good with an eye for talent) or unsigned FA's. I'm specifically looking at former Packer players that far greater success for other teams (not resigned or cut) or average players the Packers picked up from other team's rosters that shined for us. Players with a few games or more in the league that didn't pan out for another team and then played for the Packers or vice versa.

Both Hyde and Heyward were signed for reasonable contracts and one could argue their play far exceeded the deal. It's obviously too early to call on Martinez or Fackrell but the article I reference got me to thinking about this as a topic. I had completely forgotten about Leach.

You're probably right that my slant has more likelihood of being viewed as negative versus positive but I'm hoping to be corrected on that or at least be reminded of some players I missed.

As for Randall, I only mentioned his name as I thought at one point there were discussions of him playing at a pro bowl level during his brief time in Cleveland and although a decent starter at times with the Packers, I don't think anybody would have confused him for an elite secondary player.

[run pMc]

Packers are a draft and develop team, they generally have not been players in FA or signing other teams' players.
So there won't be many examples of players "from other team's rosters that shined for us" as a consequence. Lazard and Ervin have done ok for us.

There will always be mistakes made, players let go a year too early -- or several in the case of some players like Leach and Heyward who have gone on to play well. I'd submit the number of mistakes is vastly outnumbered by the number of good calls made -- Mike Daniels, for example.

[RashanGary]

Thompson was senile down the stretch there.

[GB-Brandon]

The Packers are afraid to sit at the “VIP Table.” Their comfort zone exists at the 5 dollar and 10 dollar tables. Even the $25 table draws dribble down their leg.