Studs and Duds, Staleys:

[George Cumby]

Studs:

#12 19/24 4 TD 0 Int PR: 147.9. A surgical assassin completing passes to nine different receivers.

Team Defense. Chicago's O has been on a roll. D holds them to 16 points despite giving up a boatload of yards. Holds Chi to just over 100 on the ground.

Coach Lafleur. Back to back 13-3 seasons. Legit.

Duds:

*Sigh* Special Teams, I might say we have an STD, Special Teams Dysfunction.

Fill in the gaps.

[Joemailman]

Stud: Mike Pettine. Give the guy credit. The defense has surrendered fewer than 20 points in 4 of last 5 games. Key move was replacing Kirksey with Barnes as every down linebacker. Barnes has been better there than Kirksey, and Kirksey has had impact plays in a reduced role.

[Zool]

Oline and play calling kept Rodgers pretty clean.

[QBME]

Stud/Dud - MVS.

[KYPack]

Studs

MTP for his consecutive thread starting victories.

Hell, one for George for making a Studs and Duds thread preventing Tank from doing his egoisttistist bullshit.

Rick Wagner at RT. the guys is hurting, but has played the position in a ton of pain. It's great to see a Wisco native busting his ass for the G&G.

Dud. Tavon A. Secure the ball, make the catch and never give up possession.

[th87]

Dud: King (or Pettine): whoever is responsible for soft 10 yard cushions on 3rd and short.

Bears basically run two plays - the dink and dunk. So why play so far off?

[Guiness]

Stud: Mike Pettine. Give the guy credit. The defense has surrendered fewer than 20 points in 4 of last 5 games. Key move was replacing Kirksey with Barnes as every down linebacker. Barnes has been better there than Kirksey, and Kirksey has had impact plays in a reduced role.

This. Kirksey seems much more effective with his limited snaps. He had another sack tonight. He's carrying big ticket to the pay window to be playing that little, but at least they found a way to use him properly.

[call_me_ishmael]

MVS caught the one deep TD but man oh man how can you drop #2. That probably cost ARod the title for highest passer rating ever.

[RashanGary]

Kirksey always played that second position in his career, not the mike. So it’s more natural for him. Pettine said that a week or two ago. Barnes is a tough dude.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Dud: King (or Pettine): whoever is responsible for soft 10 yard cushions on 3rd and short.

Bears basically run two plays - the dink and dunk. So why play so far off?

I thought King was solid. He missed a tackle and gave up a couple of plays, but made some other plays.

[Sparkey]

The signing of Billy Turner is looking better and better.

[RashanGary]

I thought King was solid. He missed a tackle and gave up a couple of plays, but made some other plays.

I thought king was better than solid. First, his top skill is man coverage. He’s considered by most personnel surveys to be a top man corner in the league. Second, his off coverage has come a long way this year. He was breaking hard and making plays from his off looks, finally! It took him a minute to round out his game, but he has rounded out his game to be able to do many things well instead of just 1. He’s not jaire, but few are.

[RashanGary]

Savage - making huge plays
Amos - making huge plays and a ton of plays from LB too
Jaire - island. Not much to say, but star player
King - our weak link isn’t weak
Sullivan - skilled from the slot.

Our whole secondary is..... in terms of all NFL teams having limited cap space and no one has 5 stars, our secondary is elite. Ever since the zone coverage started clicking a few weeks ago, our whole defense has been elite.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I thought king was better than solid. First, his top skill is man coverage. He’s considered by most personnel surveys to be a top man corner in the league. Second, his off coverage has come a long way this year. He was breaking hard and making plays from his off looks, finally! It took him a minute to round out his game, but he has rounded out his game to be able to do many things well instead of just 1. He’s not jaire, but few are.

I meant in this game. th87 put King in his dud category up above.

[Bossman641]

King played well overall but some of the pre snap alignments have him set up to fail. Whether that's his choice or the play call is a separate discussion but playing 10 yards off on short yardage looks bad.

[George Cumby]

King did have seven or eight tackles, so he's getting ball carriers to the ground. FWIW

[RashanGary]

King played well overall but some of the pre snap alignments have him set up to fail. Whether that's his choice or the play call is a separate discussion but playing 10 yards off on short yardage looks bad.

I don’t think that’s necessarily true. Earlier in the year he failed at those off looks, but he usually did it when we had leads and he has improved. I think the goal of putting him in said situations was to round out his gsme and open up the playbook once he was able to play in the other techniques besides man. He’s gotten better and now Pettine has options. He’s still improving, but I like his overall game.

[RashanGary]

Sometimes when you take guys in the late round 1 or early round 2 they have some work to do to complete their games. There are guys who come out complete and ready but usually they’re very high picks or have some sort of reason for falling. Usually you get lower upside or high upside with some skill building to do. Watching king ascend from an incomplete young player to a more complete veteran is a normal curve. Bashing a 24 year old doesn’t always hold water over the course of his career trajectory. I thought king played his off techniques progressively better to the point he’s solid now. But that’s one guys view. Tearing him up is the easier position though. Insee the logic, just don’t agree with it

[RashanGary]

I’m sure playing man all of the time and then getting shredded by teams who are equipped to kill that defense would be preferred to rounding out young players games to avoid such disaster. Truthfully, people would bitch either way and would have no clue why whatever pitfalls happened but always short answer blame the coaching and scheme. It always sounds good coming out after a loss to spew some unfounded vitriol why things aren’t perfect. The shorter the explanation, the better it feels to vent.

[smuggler]

As others have said: Love Wagner. Love/hate MVS.

[texaspackerbacker]

I meant in this game. th87 put King in his dud category up above.

I never like to agree with th87, but I'd put King in the dud category too. He got beat several times in coverage, and he missed more than just that one tackle where he broke the cardinal rule about not wrapping up. And of course, he missed an interception that probably anybody in this forum coulda caught. King still looked quicker and better in some ways than usual in the Bears game. I would think you just about have to line him up way off the ball/"setting him up to fail", or else he's too much of a risk to get beat deep.

Nobody else was clearly duddish, but the Smiths both were big nothings relative to the money they get paid, and they backslid from the discipline they showed in setting the corner against the run in the previous game.

Our O Line was decent, but I'm not gonna call them studs when they didn't look as good as the Bears O Line against us. Similarly, our D Line wasn't horrible, but they were way less tough that the Bears D Line. Kenny Clark did stand out, though.

Barnes played pretty good, but it's hard to call him a stud with all the inside running and short middle passing the Bears had. Kirksey played way better than usual, but he still was far from a stud IMO.

Pretty much all the secondary other than King qualified as studs although allowing all those short middle passes was on somebody.

All of our skill players other than Rodgers were good but less studdish than usual - probably due to good defense by the Bears. Rodgers was as much of a stud as always - if you ignore getting lucky on 3 near picks in the third quarter.

Pettine put together a plan that held the opponent to 16 after they'd scored over 30 three straight times, I'll give him that. But allowing so much ball control and having such a hard time getting off the field could bite us some games.

LaFleur got us another 30+ point game against a tough D, but I didn't care for some of the outside zone runs. I suppose you have to throw in some things you know won't work, though, to keep the defense guessing.

[Guiness]

Have to be happy with Turner. I felt he struggled a bit in the run game but he did well in his primary job, keeping Aaron's jersey clean, and I don't recall him needing a bunch of help out there. Have to be happy with that, and it should only get better as he settles into playing on the left side.

Has there been any official announcement of the diagnosis for Bakh?

[Sparkey]

Torn ACL

[Smidgeon]

King played well overall but some of the pre snap alignments have him set up to fail. Whether that's his choice or the play call is a separate discussion but playing 10 yards off on short yardage looks bad.

How did they fail? They beat the Bears by 3 scores and except an unbelievable catch by Mooney (sp?), their receivers were contained. A.Robinson had 2 catches--lowest of the season--during a season where he had over 100 total receptions. Sure, the Bears dinked and dunked, but they went for it on 4th 5 or 6 times and still lost by 3 scores.

The game plan worked perfectly.

[RashanGary]

I think they like outside zone against good pass rush teams because it opens up some roll outs and moving pockets in the pass game. The roll outs and moving pockets are good for passing against good pass rush teams so the outside zone becomes more valuable.

[RashanGary]

Don’t know if it’s the running backs or the line who stink at outside zone, but it’s a struggle for sure.

[George Cumby]

How did they fail? They beat the Bears by 3 scores and except an unbelievable catch by Mooney (sp?), their receivers were contained. A.Robinson had 2 catches--lowest of the season--during a season where he had over 100 total receptions. Sure, the Bears dinked and dunked, but they went for it on 4th 5 or 6 times and still lost by 3 scores.

The game plan worked perfectly.

They know Trubs is erratic on his deep ball so they weren't afraid of that. King was playing off using the sideline as his help. The Bears weren't going to dink and dunk their way to a W.

[Bossman641]

How did they fail? They beat the Bears by 3 scores and except an unbelievable catch by Mooney (sp?), their receivers were contained. A.Robinson had 2 catches--lowest of the season--during a season where he had over 100 total receptions. Sure, the Bears dinked and dunked, but they went for it on 4th 5 or 6 times and still lost by 3 scores.

The game plan worked perfectly.

I'll fully acknowledge I'm criticizing after the D had a good game, but I'd like to see the D do a better job of taking away what the other team wants to do. We're a better team then the Bears, we should be looking to maximize the number of possessions to let that superiority play out. The Bears wanted to play slow, play the TOP game, and minimize the ball in Rodgers' hands. Our D strategy played right into that. Overall, I'd be fine with playing more aggressively from a D standpoint. You may give up ore quick scores but you also may force more turnovers and end possessions sooner.

[Bossman641]

Lafleur is saying the same thing...


“There’s sometimes where I think we can be a little bit more aggressive just in terms of our mentality. Some of those third downs and fourth-down conversions, a third-and-short, I want us to get up in people's faces and challenge them. Because I think we’ve got the people that can get that done, especially when you look at our corner situation.”

[run pMc]

Don’t know if it’s the running backs or the line who stink at outside zone, but it’s a struggle for sure.

Last year they struggled with the OZ, and there were some stats showing Jones was much better at inside zone runs. I think it's both the OL and RBs, but I'd also say they are better at it this year. It's a big part of MLFs offense. I think you run outside against teams with either big monster DL like Akiem Hicks and John Jenkins or penetrating DL so they have to run east-west thru blocks and trash vs. north-south. Wears them out and keeps them from getting a clear shot in the backfield. With Roquan going out that makes some sense as well; he's their fastest LB. Either way the Bears did a pretty good job of bottling up the run, but GB only had 44 plays and not much in TOP so it was hard to establish the run.

[run pMc]

Lafleur is saying the same thing...

I've been on board with this for a while. If they have CBs who are good in press, why not let them? Otherwise, if you're going to play off-man, maybe don't play 8 yards off?

I realize playing off has prevented explosive plays, but I also think tightening up coverage would produce more punts/turnovers.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Savage - making huge plays
King - our weak link isn’t weak


I really like what I saw of King Sunday. (I said "Sunday" because I forget what day it it is.) He is so long and aggressive and athletic. (I assume it was scheme that had him playing too deep at times.)

If he played wearing mittens his game would be unchanged. Oh well.

[Upnorth]

Dud: re hiring slocum as our special teams coordinator for the season. What other reason could there be for our special teams play?

[RashanGary]

I really like what I saw of King Sunday. (I said "Sunday" because I forget what day it it is.) He is so long and aggressive and athletic. (I assume it was scheme that had him playing too deep at times.)

If he played wearing mittens his game would be unchanged. Oh well.

Shocking to see fans bitching about a really solid player. This shit gets tiresome :roll:

[RashanGary]

Lafleur is saying the same thing...

Big whoop. King is dialed in on improving other aspects of his game and it’s gotten in the way of him doing what he does best. If you had a craft to work on, I wouldn’t bitch that you’re working on it. Get off the kids back :roll:

[Bossman641]

Big whoop. King is dialed in on improving other aspects of his game and it’s gotten in the way of him doing what he does best. If you had a craft to work on, I wouldn’t bitch that you’re working on it. Get off the kids back :roll:

Lol I'm all for him growing his game but in complete disagreement with this story you've created about the secondary essentially screwing around during games to work on zone coverage and other things. And if the coach is specifically saying to be more aggressive on short yardage, then Pettine and the secondary should listen.

And FYI I'm a King fan

[RashanGary]

Well, if they really sucked and weren’t building their Arsenal then they should still suck. Funny how it gets turnt up every time the stakes go up. That’s not luck. That’s the fruits of team building labor.

[RashanGary]

It’s funny how all season they’re idiots and now, magically it’s falling together. Dumb luck, huh? Bunch of retards drooling their way into a pot of gold. Has nothing to do with a coach teaching and allowing for real game experience. Just wow.

[Bossman641]

Not sure how you end up with that takeaway out of my critique that the secondary shouldn't line up 8 yards off the receivers when it's third and 3...

[RashanGary]

Not sure how you end up with that takeaway out of my critique that the secondary shouldn't line up 8 yards off the receivers when it's third and 3...

Why was jaire half way into the end zone on the play he stopped Graham? Because he has a great feel for off coverage maybe? How is it that king is less effective? Less of a great feel. How might you improve. Oh, I know, give up and stop trying! The solution for every young player to meet his eventual best is to give up! Sure thing!

[RashanGary]

And every corner who’s not in jaires class should just give up on playing football because they’re trash and have no hope. Of course he’s not trying to get better at said coverages. He’s doing it because they’re coaching him to failure and pettine is one gigantic retard. Why couldn’t I see it before? I’m a gigantic stooge too, I suppose.

[RashanGary]

My ridiculous story of the Packers trying to improve their young players is far less believable than them being a bunch of bumbling monkeys. I’m so stupid to assume things like effort and belief in improvement through growing pains. It’s so far fetched and made up, I can’t believe I’m putting my reputation on the line defending such idiocy.

It’s just ridiculous to me when people assume the worst in intentions. But to see actual turnt up shit at ever turn up in stakes and not assuming the growth was intentional seems barbarically short sighted to me.

[RashanGary]

And that’s coming from a proud red neck, dumb shit, bumbling barbarian.

[run pMc]

My ridiculous story of the Packers trying to improve their young players is far less believable than them being a bunch of bumbling monkeys. I’m so stupid to assume things like effort and belief in improvement through growing pains. It’s so far fetched and made up, I can’t believe I’m putting my reputation on the line defending such idiocy.

It’s just ridiculous to me when people assume the worst in intentions. But to see actual turnt up shit at ever turn up in stakes and not assuming the growth was intentional seems barbarically short sighted to me.

I'm not trashing the secondary. They are young, with the exception of Amos. Having Tramon last year was invaluable for the young guys IMO.
I generally subscribe to the theory that you don't know what you have until 2 seasons (about 32 games). Jaire flashed his rookie year, and has followed it up since with stellar play. All-Pro, Revis island type play. Those guys are almost as rare as a top 5 QB. Savage is starting to round into form at that 2 season mark now -- I think the game is slowing down, he's learning to be a pro, trust his eyes, all the cliches that are true. Pettine is also using him and Amos better, which has helped.
As for King, his development was slowed by his injuries, and he's a good CB2 IMO. Injuries have also hurt his play, and sometimes I think he's misused -- he's better closer to the LOS vs. off or in zone. Dude has long arms and could be a star for a team that plays a lot of press. Problem is his recovery speed is not great if he gets burned, which is weird for a guy who ran a 4.43 40 at the combine. I actually like his run support -- he and Jaire aren't afraid to get into the mess and tackle. They could do a lot worse than him.
Do I think they are beyond criticism? Nope. I also realize they aren't perfect, especially with how the passing game is officiated, and to an extent with Pettine uses them.

All that said, Kevin King is good enough to start for most teams in the league, and I think he'll get interest in FA. Depending on the contract he's seeking, he might be gone. His injury history will give teams (including GB) pause, not his performance. I wouldn't be surprised if he leaves and GB drafts a CB within the first 3 picks.

I could apply the 2 full seasons theory to Rashan Gary (who is showing progress and is at worst a solid OLB), Elgton Jenkins (excellent pick), Oren Burks (bad pick), J'Mon Moore (ugh), etc.
With Jordan Love it's trickier; you really do need to see his play preseason games or spot duty to know if he's developing into a pro QB, and what kind. You hope to see glimmers of good play and progress in those moments and in practice and go from there.

[Bossman641]

Pettine also not happy with the off coverage


We have to have better situational awareness. The corners, depending on the call, if they have deep responsibility, whether it's man or whether it's three-deep or quarters, they do have some options on how to play it. But situationally, we have to better understanding that we can't give easy throws.

[Smidgeon]

Pettine also not happy with the off coverage

Good catch. So is it Gray (doubtful) or King. Based on Pettine's comment and nothing but my own speculation, King plays off to keep himself from getting burned. So it's Gray's job to fix, right?

[Zool]

Good catch. So is it Gray (doubtful) or King. Based on Pettine's comment and nothing but my own speculation, King plays off to keep himself from getting burned. So it's Gray's job to fix, right?

That is a rock-solid question. When King was out, Jackson was doing the same damned thing on the same side of the field. Could it be a coaching decision on the QB's left side?

[Smidgeon]

That is a rock-solid question. When King was out, Jackson was doing the same damned thing on the same side of the field. Could it be a coaching decision on the QB's left side?

Well, I've heard from the interwebs that Gray is a rock-solid DB coach. And since everything online is beyond repute, it can't be him, can it? BUT, to your point, Jackson did it...and did every other corner except Alexander--who technically still does it but has the wherewithal and smarts to make it not matter at all because of his closing instincts.

[Zool]

Well, I've heard from the interwebs that Gray is a rock-solid DB coach. And since everything online is beyond repute, it can't be him, can it? BUT, to your point, Jackson did it...and did every other corner except Alexander--who technically still does it but has the wherewithal and smarts to make it not matter at all because of his closing instincts.

While I agree, all internet information is fact beyond dispute, Jaire seems to play off situationally. I just wonder if it's coaching or guys that don't trust their own deep speed.

[texaspackerbacker]

King, Jackson, and pretty much anybody else this side of Jaire play off to prevent big plays. Jaire doesn't do that because he simply has more God-given ability. Ideally, we draft another one like Jaire, but the good lord didn't make very many of those, and they usually get drafted before we draft (and often they turn out not to be as good as they looked in college).

[RashanGary]

King and Jackson played the same off coverage jaire does all of the time. Jaire is better at it. The details of breaking sooner to prevent they short stuff is more natural for jaire.

The Packers are better as King gets better at said looks. And now they're cleaning up how often king does it. It's no longer growth time. It's win or go home time. All the coaches are hinting to it.