Packers All-Time Team

[HarveyWallbangers]

Trying to get my mind off the game. I came up with a Packers All-Time Team. This team consists of players who played most of their careers after 1959--which I consider modern football times. I'm actually working on a project to do this for every NFL team. I tried to keep to some minimums for position (3 QB, 3 RB, 4 WR, 2 TE, 3 OT, 3 OG, 2 OC, 3 DE, 3 DT, 5 LB, 4 CB, 3 S).

There were some hard decisions.

WR - Antonio Freeman, Randall Cobb, and Greg Jennings were left off. I already have a lot of WRs.

OT - I have a lot of them, but I think they deserve a spot over a long-time, average starter at another position.

DT - Probably the most pathetic position, and it won't take too many healthy seasons for Kenny Clark to make this list.

CB - Hard deciding between Al Harris, Tramon Williams, or even a long-time starter like Mark Lee.

There were some guys that started a lot of games for the Packers, but were never Pro Bowl caliber players (CB Lee, S Johnnie Gray, S Mark Murphy). I left most of them off--except for John Anderson. I felt he had done just enough, for now, to make the team.

Outside of Clark, Jaire Alexander looks like the player most likely to join this list from the current team (who isn't already on the team)--as long as he stays with the Packers beyond his rookie contract.

Green Bay Packers All-Time Team

OFFENSE

QB (3) Aaron Rodgers, Brett Favre*, Bart Starr*
RB (3) Jim Taylor*, Ahman Green, Paul Hornung*
WR (7) James Lofton*, Sterling Sharpe, Donald Driver, Jordy Nelson, Davante Adams, Boyd Dowler, Carrol Dale
TE (2) Paul Coffman, Ron Kramer
OT (6) Forrest Gregg*, David Bakhtiari, Chad Clifton, Mark Tauscher, Ken Ruettgers, Bryan Bulaga
OG (4) Jerry Kramer*, Gale Gillingham, Josh Sitton, Marco Rivera
OC (2) Larry McCarren, Frank Winters

DEFENSE

DE (5) Reggie White*, Willie Davis*, Aaron Kampman, Lionel Aldridge, Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila
DT (3) Henry Jordan*, Ron Kostelnik, Gilbert Brown
LB (7) Ray Nitschke*, Dave Robinson*, Clay Matthews, Lee Roy Caffey, Fred Carr, Tim Harris, John Anderson
CB (6) Herb Adderley*, Charles Woodson, Bob Jeter, Willie Buchanon, Ken Ellis, Al Harris
S (3) Willie Wood*, LeRoy Butler, Nick Collins

SPECIAL TEAMS

PK (1) Mason Crosby
P (1) Tim Masthay

Total #: 53

* Denotes Hall of Famer

Pre-1960s Hall Of Famers: QB Arnie Herber, HB Tony Canadeo, FB Clark Hinkle, HB Johnny McNally, WR Don Hutson, OT Cal Hubbard, OG Mike Michalske, OC Jim Ringo, S Bobby Dillon

[Joemailman]

I'm guessing you left Jim Ringo off because he played part of his career before 1960 and another part with Philadelphia? He was first team all-pro from 1960-1963. I suspect down the road Elgton Jenkins would qualify, but unsure of what position.

[sharpe1027]

Mac McGee too early for consideration?

[Upnorth]

Great list. I feel like the ot position might be to heavily represented from the last couple years. And straight up disagree with kgb.
Love the first 2 names on the wr list. Beautiful memories!.
I am suprised how weak we are at dt.
Great work harvey

[sharpe1027]

Santana Dotson > Gilbert Brown

[Upnorth]

I understand there is a massive gap between Starr favre rodgers and anyone else but a part of me wants to add lynn dickey to the list.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I'm guessing you left Jim Ringo off because he played part of his career before 1960 and another part with Philadelphia? He was first team all-pro from 1960-1963. I suspect down the road Elgton Jenkins would qualify, but unsure of what position.

Yes, that was my initial thought. However, now that I look at it--even though he played most of his Packers career before 1960--Ringo's four All-Pro seasons in the early 60's should probably qualify him for the team. Looking at Pro Football Reference's Approximate Value #, Ringo received 61 AV for those four seasons--which is higher than several players on the team. Two of the DTs have lesser AV, but I have to keep them to fulfill my minimum roster requirements. Al Harris, KGB, Tim Harris, and Paul Hornung (for his production in the 60s alone) all have AVs lower than Ringo (in the 60s alone). Since I'm heavy on CBs and there isn't much separating Al Harris from Tramon Williams and Mark Lee, I think I'll put Ringo and take Al Harris off. Or I could take John Anderson off. I'm open to ideas.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Mac McGee too early for consideration?

This was a hard one. Of those Lombardi WRs, Dowler has him beat easily. McGee would have him beat if you took into consideration his production pre-1960, but in the 60s Dale has 3 Pro Bowl seasons to 1 Pro Bowl season for McGee and a higher AV (barely).

[HarveyWallbangers]

Santana Dotson > Gilbert Brown

Another tough one. Their AV was almost identical. Dotson was the slightly better all-around player, but Brown's longevity gave him a slightly higher AV total. I also took into consideration the Gravedigger's popularity among the Packers faithful. I might have to put up these close decision up for a vote.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Great list. I feel like the ot position might be to heavily represented from the last couple years. And straight up disagree with kgb.
Love the first 2 names on the wr list. Beautiful memories!.
I am suprised how weak we are at dt.
Great work harvey

We've been spoiled by QB greatness. We all loved Dickey in the 1980s and felt he was underappreciated because of the team's lack of success (primarily due to putrid defenses). He would be borderline, and I would not be against him replacing somebody like John Anderson.

Like I stated above, I used career AV as a baseline, but I did bypass several players that had career longevity for guys who were better players for a shorter amount of time. Guys who had longevity and probably would have qualified on career AV alone: OG Ron Hallstrom, DE Robert Brown, DT Ryan Pickett, LB A.J. Hawk, CB Mark Lee, S Johnnie Gray, S Mark Murphy. LB John Anderson was the one exception. Of these guys Anderson and Lee had the highest career AVs and had the best arguments to be on the team.

[HarveyWallbangers]

QB

An obvious top 3 in Starr, Favre, and Rodgers. I personally think Aaron Rodgers is the best QB in Packers history, but an argument can be made for all three.

The only question here: does Lynn Dickey deserve a spot on the team as a 4th QB? We all loved him. He got little help from his OL and defense--although he did have some good weapons in James Lofton, John Jefferson, Paul Coffman, etc. His career AV of 71 with the Packers is higher than others on the All-Time Team. However, I noticed AV tends to be higher for QBs. He didn't make any Pro Bowls. He was an All-Pro in 1983.

[HarveyWallbangers]

RB

Another obvious top 3 in Taylor, Green, and Hornung--although it's not so obvious when you just take Hornung's career from the 1960s into consideration. His AV is actually slightly lower than John Brockington and Dorsey Levens. However, his two All-Pro nods in the 1960s, MVP season in 1961, and contributions for the Lombardi dynasty trump Brockington and Levens.

Brockington is another borderline player here. I could see taking him a spot over somebody else at another position.

[HarveyWallbangers]

WR

Lofton, Sharpe, Driver, Dowler, and Nelson were locks. After that, an argument could be made for Dale, Adams, Antonio Freeman, Randall Cobb, Greg Jennings, and Max McGee.

The career AVs were close for those 6. I chose Dale over McGee because his AV was slightly higher compared to McGee in the 1960s, and he had 3 Pro Bowls compared to 1 Pro Bowl for McGee in the 60s. The career AVs for Adams, Freeman, Cobb, and Jennings were all close. It really came down to Freeman vs. Adams. Since Adams AV is already close and he has 4 Pro Bowls to Freeman's 1 Pro Bowl, I chose Adams already. After this season, it will be a moot point.

[HarveyWallbangers]

OT

Gregg might be the best OT ever. Clifton and Bakhtiari are the next tier. Clifton didn't get as much recognition as Bakh, but he was nearly as good and played for 12 years. The next three (Tauscher, Ruettgers, Bulaga) were all close. I think they all deserve a spot on the team. Without his injury, Bulaga probably is 4th on this list, but he still gets the last spot here despite the injuries.

[StPaulPackFan]

I would add Mike Douglass at LB. He played on so many crumby teams but always stood out to me. His nickname, "Mad Dog" was also pretty cool :grin:

[HarveyWallbangers]

OG

Pretty obvious top 4. Ron Hallstrom had career longevity, but was never considered much better than average. T.J. Lang had a couple of Pro Bowl nods, but couldn't match the other four player's multiple All-Pro selections. He deserves consideration as a 5th OG though.

[HarveyWallbangers]

OC

I've added Ringo to my All-Time Team, removing Al Harris for now. It's another obvious top 3 with Ringo, McCarren, and Winters. Scott Wells and Corey Linsley were solid for many years, but not enough to make it on the team. If Linsley resigns with the Packers and has 2-3 more good seasons, he will get consideration.

[HarveyWallbangers]

DE

The top four (White, Davis, Aldrdige, Kampman) were relatively easy picks. Robert Brown had a higher career AV than KGB, but he was never more than average. KGB is iffy, but four consecutive 10+ sack seasons puts him on the team. Not sure what to make of Ezra Johnson. I always thought of him as a good player, but he only made one Pro Bowl team and doesn't have a very high career AV. I wonder what his AV would be if they counted sacks before 1982.

[HarveyWallbangers]

DT

Pretty pathetic group actually. Jordan was a Hall of Famer. Kostelnik was a solid player on 5 championship teams. The final spot came down to Gilbert Brown vs. Santana Doston. An argument can be made for either. Kenny Clark probably bumps off Brown with two more good seasons.

[HarveyWallbangers]

LB

Nitschke, Matthews, Robinson, and Carr were locks. After that, it was tough. Caffey and Harris were better at their peak than others, but their Packers careers were relatively short. Then, you had a bunch of average or above average players who started for a long time (John Anderson, A.J. Hawk, Nick Barnett, Mike Douglass, George Koonce, Johnny Holland, Brian Noble). I went with the two studs in Caffey and Harris. Anderson's career AV was quite a bit higher than the other--mostly because he started for 10 years. He was also named to the NFL's All-1980's team (second team)--which was surprising to me. That gave him the nod for me.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Not to act like a smartass, but time commenced at the birth of the Big Bang. “All-time” denotes Big Bang to the present. The title of this thread is misleading.

Masthay is the GOAT punter? That’s disrespectful to BJ Sander, Jon Ryan and even Craig Hentrich.

[HarveyWallbangers]

CB

Another tough position group. Woodson, Adderley, Bob Jeter, Willie Buchanon, and Ken Ellie were locks. The next group were all similar. Mark Lee was a long-time starter, he even led the league with 9 interceptions one year. He didn't have any Pro Bowl or All-Pro seasons, but Pro Football Reference actually gave him a high career AV--indicating he was underappreciated. I just remember him being pretty average, but my recollection could be wrong. Then, you had a bunch of players (Tramon Williams, Al Harris, Tyrone Williams, Doug Evans) who deserve consideration with similar career AVs.

[HarveyWallbangers]

S

Hall of Famer Willie Wood, LeRoy Butler (who deserves a Hall of Fame nod IMHO), and Nick Collins (who was on pace for a Hall of Fame career) are a great start. After that though, not much. Two long-terrm starters with high career AVs who weren't much better than average in Johnnie Gray and Mark Murphy. That's about it.

[HarveyWallbangers]

ST

Crosby was an easy selection. Masthay was the best of a bad group. We haven't had many good punters. I wanted to find a way to get Travis Williams on the team as a returner, but his career was so short.

[GB-Brandon]

Is this thread supposed to make us feel better about our Front Office’s failure to put a team together to get over the hump?

[Joemailman]

LB

Nitschke, Matthews, Robinson, and Carr were locks. After that, it was tough. Caffey and Harris were better at their peak than others, but their Packers careers were relatively short. Then, you had a bunch of average or above average players who started for a long time (John Anderson, A.J. Hawk, Nick Barnett, Mike Douglass, George Koonce, Johnny Holland, Brian Noble). I went with the two studs in Caffey and Harris. Anderson's career AV was quite a bit higher than the other--mostly because he started for 10 years. He was also named to the NFL's All-1980's team (second team)--which was surprising to me. That gave him the nod for me.

Anderson's pass coverage skills definitely qualify him. He had 25 career INT's, tied with Nitschke for most by a Packer LB.

[StPaulPackFan]

RB

Brockington is another borderline player here. I could see taking him a spot over somebody else at another position.

I was pretty young when he played but I'll always remember my dad calling him 'effing fumble fingers', but with the actual f-word.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I'm too young for Brockington, but it's interesting that he had 1 fumble for every 62 touches.

Ahman Green had 1 fumble for every 65 touches.
Jim Taylor had 1 fumble for every 64 touches.
Dorsey Levens had 1 fumble for every 119 touches.
Ryan Grant had 1 fumble for every 117 touches.
Paul Hornung had 1 fumble for every 49 touches.
Gerry Ellis had 1 fumble for every 33 touches.
Eddie Lacy had 1 fumble for every 121 touches.
Aaron Jones has 1 fumble for every 130 touches.
Edgar Bennett had 1 fumble for every 140 touches.

In terms of ball security, this is the order of the top 10 RBs in modern Packers history:

Edgar Bennett (140), Aaron Jones (130), Eddie Lacy (121), Dorsey Levens (119), Ryan Grant (117)
Ahman Green (65), Jim Taylor (64), John Brockington (62)
Paul Hornung (49), Gerry Ellis (33)

[GB-Brandon]

Could the “All-Time Team” got us a win last Sunday? What “All-Time Coach” would we need to secure that win for us?

I think I know who? LOL

[sharpe1027]

Another tough one. Their AV was almost identical. Dotson was the slightly better all-around player, but Brown's longevity gave him a slightly higher AV total. I also took into consideration the Gravedigger's popularity among the Packers faithful. I might have to put up these close decision up for a vote.

They were very different players, which complicates the comparison. Are you excluding time spent with another team from the analysis? That would shift away from Dotson.

[HarveyWallbangers]

They were very different players, which complicates the comparison. Are you excluding time spent with another team from the analysis? That would shift away from Dotson.

Yes, for the most part--although when it's close it's probably something that comes to mind. For example, Charles Woodson's AV with the Packers is below Mark Lee and right about the same as Ken Ellis. However, Woodson was such a stud here and elsewhere that I didn't consider moving either of those guys above him. That probably has less to do with how he did with another team and more about how dominant he was with the Packers at his peak. I used AV as a baseline for figuring who the top players were, but Pro Bowl nods, All-Pros, championships, legacy, etc. come more into play.

Mark Lee and John Anderson were the two guys who stood out when using career AV. Lee's career AV puts him well ahead of most CBs on the team. Same with Anderson at LB. However, neither guy was a star and it's hard for me to think of them as deserving to be on the Packers All-Time team. What swayed me for Anderson was his All-1980's second team nod. I could probably find a way to do the same with Lee.

[George Cumby]

Wish Patler was around to put in his .02.

[sharpe1027]

Wish Patler was around to put in his .02.

X2

[smuggler]

Ezra Johnson is a player worth considering. Greg Koch (if I'm right on the spelling) and Bryce Paup.

[QBME]

ST

Crosby was an easy selection. Masthay was the best of a bad group. We haven't had many good punters. I wanted to find a way to get Travis Williams on the team as a returner, but his career was so short.

Only played with the Pack a few years, but Don Chandler was pretty good.

Also, Travis "The Road Runner" Williams was pretty exciting - especially against the Rams, two returns for TD's, I forget the year.

[sharpe1027]

Returner...Desmond Howard. I don't care that it wasn't a long enough career with the Packers. :)

[HarveyWallbangers]

It just kind of hit me that we lost Willie Davis, Willie Wood, and Herb Adderley last year--three Hall of Famers. I think Dave Robinson and Tom Brown are the only defensive starters left from the last Lombardi team.

[Fritz]

Two players you think of as "borderline" are, for me, not really close: Levens and McGee. Dorsey Levens was a solid guy, but that's all he was. In my opinion does not even belong in the conversation. I was glad though that you recognized how good Ahman Green really was. Best combination of speed and power since I don't know who.

Max McGee was a great story as a character, but there are so many other receivers in Green Bay history who were so much better. All the receivers you listed are, to me, light years ahead of McGee. He was good, don't get me wrong, but not that special. If you gave me a choice to start an in-their-prime Max McGee or Robert Brooks, I'd take Brooks every time.

[Upnorth]

Levels gets helped the team he played on as our passing game was so good. I remember liking but not loving levens.
Green on the other hand is my favorite packer from the 2000's.

I know I already said this but great work harv thanks.

[Fritz]

I was pretty young when he played but I'll always remember my dad calling him 'effing fumble fingers', but with the actual f-word.

I don't recall him being a big fumbler, but I don't have numbers. I was about twelve or so when he was in his prime in Green Bay, and he reminds me, when I see old footage of him, of a slightly-less-talented version of Earl Campbell. He could run people over and he had pretty decent vision.

Once he got hurt, though, that was it. I think it was an ACL, which in those days meant the end of your career.

His running mate for a year, I think, was a guy named MacArthur Lane, whom they acquired, from what I believe at the time were the St. Louis Cardinals. He was the only running back I ever saw in Green Bay who tried (and I think completed) the halfback option.

[run pMc]

OT

Gregg might be the best OT ever. Clifton and Bakhtiari are the next tier. Clifton didn't get as much recognition as Bakh, but he was nearly as good and played for 12 years. The next three (Tauscher, Ruettgers, Bulaga) were all close. I think they all deserve a spot on the team. Without his injury, Bulaga probably is 4th on this list, but he still gets the last spot here despite the injuries.

Bulaga over Earl Dotson -- interesting. Can't say I'd argue with either choice. Agree with the rest. Ruettgers was a good player.

[Fritz]

Bulaga over Earl Dotson -- interesting. Can't say I'd argue with either choice. Agree with the rest. Ruettgers was a good player.

I liked Dotson - I really did - but that dude had more false start penalties in half a dozen games than the rest of the offensive line combined had for a season. I've never seen anything like it. I recall that maybe he had a hearing problem or something? But on that alone, I might take Bulaga in his prime. ANd Reuttgers was a good player.

Clifton was not a great run blocker but he was as smooth a pass blocker as you could draw up.

One guy I don't know if Harv mentioned - I haven't tracked this thread too closely - was Johnny Gray. He was a heckuva safety.

[Joemailman]

I liked Dotson - I really did - but that dude had more false start penalties in half a dozen games than the rest of the offensive line combined had for a season. I've never seen anything like it. I recall that maybe he had a hearing problem or something? But on that alone, I might take Bulaga in his prime. ANd Reuttgers was a good player.

Clifton was not a great run blocker but he was as smooth a pass blocker as you could draw up.

One guy I don't know if Harv mentioned - I haven't tracked this thread too closely - was Johnny Gray. He was a heckuva safety.

Dotson had loss of hearing in his left ear. So, in a noisy stadium, especially the dome in Minnesota he couldn't hear the signals at all.

[HarveyWallbangers]

One guy I don't know if Harv mentioned - I haven't tracked this thread too closely - was Johnny Gray. He was a heckuva safety.

Here's what I wrote, and thanks for asking. :)


There were some guys that started a lot of games for the Packers, but were never Pro Bowl caliber players (CB Lee, S Johnnie Gray, S Mark Murphy). I left most of them off--except for John Anderson. I felt he had done just enough, for now, to make the team.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Besides WR, maybe the toughest decision I had was Al Harris vs. Tramon Williams. Who would you take? I think I'd like to go back on the Harris decision. When I think of Tramon, I think of that Super Bowl run--where he was special. Gave saving interception vs. Vick and the Eagles, the crucial pick six vs. Ryan and the Falcons, the game ending pass deflection against Big Ben and the Steelers.

[Bretsky]

I love Donald Driver; I've went to listen to him speak and I'd love to do it again. Maybe the best Packer person ever. But I think Jennings was a better WR. It was a shame he didn't take just a little less to stay in GB

[Upnorth]

Besides WR, maybe the toughest decision I had was Al Harris vs. Tramon Williams. Who would you take? I think I'd like to go back on the Harris decision. When I think of Tramon, I think of that Super Bowl run--where he was special. Gave saving interception vs. Vick and the Eagles, the crucial pick six vs. Ryan and the Falcons, the game ending pass deflection against Big Ben and the Steelers.

It's hard to separate those two as both elite corners that were underrated outside of GB.

[Fritz]

True. I like them both very much. But I think maybe Al Harris was just a bit stickier - though maybe I'm remembering Tramon Williams toward the end of his career more.

Think about this: Two of the Packers' best corners in quite some time - Tramon Williams and Sam Shields - were undrafted free agents. Wow.