Official Free Agency/Offseason/Non-Draft Thread

[Joemailman]

ARE YOU SHITTING ME ??????????????????? He's a minimum wage guy; that money seems like an April Fools joke

He'd be a minimum wage guy in MM's offense. But he's a key to the running game in MLF's offense. And he's pretty effective when they do scheme to throw it to him. Of his 10 receptions last year, 3 were TD's and 6 were for 1st downs. Plus, we don't yet know how much of that 8 million he's likely to get.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Still graded out as one of the best blocking TEs in football, and he was in great shape. Actually, looked a little faster than the previous year. Assuming only $2.1m guaranteed, then it’s not really a 2y/$8m contract. That was just a way to give him that $2.1m without it all being on the cap this year.

[bobblehead]

Still graded out as one of the best blocking TEs in football, and he was in great shape. Actually, looked a little faster than the previous year. Assuming only $2.1m guaranteed, then it’s not really a 2y/$8m contract. That was just a way to give him that $2.1m without it all being on the cap this year.

I met Mercedes when he was a young man. He was playing roulette at the Palms Casino. I looked at him and said "your listed at 270, what do you do, slim down to 245 in the offseason" He said "no, I'm 268 this morning". I was shocked. A short conversation on fitness ensued. He is a sharp guy. A nice guy too. Not every athlete wants to talk shop with some stranger while they are relaxing. I have no doubt he is still in top notch shape.

As for the dollars involved. Well, have to see how it pans out, but I like the guy. Great influence on young players. And as Joe pointed out. He is just good enough in the passing game to keep the D honest on 3rd and 3.

[bobblehead]

Side note. If you are going to sign fossils, guys like TWill and Mercedes are the good signings. Still effective enough, and a demonstration to your roster what a lifetime goal of fitness can do for your earnings after 30....or 35. If that example rubs off on just a couple young guys who work harder in the offseason because if it, then they are worth being on the roster.

[Fritz]

Calling Preston Smith, calling Preston Smith.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Kevin King’s deal is 1y/$4.75m + incentives (including games played incentives).

[Joemailman]

Kevin King’s deal is 1y/$4.75m + incentives (including games played incentives).

So report is this is a 5 year deal with 4 voidable years. 1M base with 3.75M signing bonus spread over 5 years. Cap hit in 2021 1.75M.https://www.acmepackingcompany.com/2021/3/25/22350426/kevin-kings-contract-packers-structure-void-years-2-million-cap-space-2021-2022

Edit: https://overthecap.com/player/kevin-king/5619/

[texaspackerbacker]

I heard from a guy on YouTube that the Packers signed a long snapper named Joe Fortunato. Big question here, is this guy the son or grandson or greatgrandson of Joe Fortunato, the Bears linebacker way back when I was a kid in the '50s?

[Bretsky]

Kevin King’s deal is 1y/$4.75m + incentives (including games played incentives).


Not bad; King is a decent player when he plays healthy

SIDENOTE: Dude was really banged up in that TB game last year; they weren't even sure if he was going to play mid week.

[bobblehead]

Kevin King’s deal is 1y/$4.75m + incentives (including games played incentives).

I hate to call signing Kevin King a great signing, but a veteran CB entering prime age who has played very well at times....that price is very good, and exactly the kind of steals I was projecting from this cap bloodbath. Now, lets sign a DL and an OL similar to that.

[RashanGary]

Not bad; King is a decent player when he plays healthy

SIDENOTE: Dude was really banged up in that TB game last year; they weren't even sure if he was going to play mid week.

You more positive than me about a player not named Rodgers. Rare. Good things coming.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

I heard from a guy on YouTube that the Packers signed a long snapper named Joe Fortunato. Big question here, is this guy the son or grandson or greatgrandson of Joe Fortunato, the Bears linebacker way back when I was a kid in the '50s?

I ain’t sure where you simple-minded, outdoorsy hill folks get your info, but us sophisticated city rats, we utilize this extraordinary artificial intelligence called Google.

Google says that LS Joe Fortunato has no relation with Joe Fortunato, the Bears LB turned Italian mobster.

[Upnorth]

I hate to call signing Kevin King a great signing, but a veteran CB entering prime age who has played very well at times....that price is very good, and exactly the kind of steals I was projecting from this cap bloodbath. Now, lets sign a DL and an OL similar to that.

He is not as good as you think. He was a bit above replacement in 2019. Rest of career he is the garbage prince who attained his crown of garbage king at th nfccg.
I don't think he is nfccg bad but he is at best a bit better than replacement. But at that price you can't expect much more.

[texaspackerbacker]

Signing King with just a $1.87 cap hit with control of him for 5 years just on the slim chance that he snaps into decency is a good move. We still, however, either need a good FA Corner, of which there aren't many left or to draft a Corner in the first round. I think the Packers prefer to go that latter route.

[Bretsky]

Signing King with just a $1.87 cap hit with control of him for 5 years just on the slim chance that he snaps into decency is a good move. We still, however, either need a good FA Corner, of which there aren't many left or to draft a Corner in the first round. I think the Packers prefer to go that latter route.


Now i"m confused; wasn't the King signing just a one year deal ?

There are still CB's who can help out out there; but it doesn't appear Gute is playing in FA

[Joemailman]

Now i"m confused; wasn't the King signing just a one year deal ?

There are still CB's who can help out out there; but it doesn't appear Gute is playing in FA

It's a 5 year deal with four voidable years. The idea is to keep the cap hit low this year. He'll count 3M against the cap in 2022 if he's not extended. https://overthecap.com/player/kevin-king/5619/

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Now i"m confused; wasn't the King signing just a one year deal ?

There are still CB's who can help out out there; but it doesn't appear Gute is playing in FA

It’s called “cooking the cap.” Technically, it’s a 5 year deal. But the remaining 4 years void automatically in Feb of ‘22. The Packers will absorb about $3M in “dead money” in ‘22, unless they restructure or extend King’s contract prior to Black History Month ‘22.

#cookthecap!

[Bretsky]

Cordarell Patterson's recent tweets indicate hints of him coming to Green Bay.

Thoughts ?

[red]

Cordarell Patterson's recent tweets indicate hints of him coming to Green Bay.

Thoughts ?

hes really a big nothing at this point

[HarveyWallbangers]

He actually has some usefulness. He's more RB than WR at this point, but he's actually not bad as a third RB (averages 6.1 yard/carry in his career). He might be ideal for Tyler Ervin's jet sweep role. He's probably the only guy who is still useful at KR because he returns everything and is still dangerous (led the league with 35 returns and he averages 30 yards/return). I could see him breaking one off in a cold weather game late in the year or the playoffs. I wouldn't offer him much, but I'd like him on the team for a reasonable amount.

[Bretsky]

He actually has some usefulness. He's more RB than WR at this point, but he's actually not bad as a third RB (averages 6.1 yard/carry in his career). He might be ideal for Tyler Ervin's jet sweep role. He's probably the only guy who is still useful at KR because he returns everything and is still dangerous (led the league with 35 returns and he averages 30 yards/return). I could see him breaking one off in a cold weather game late in the year or the playoffs. I wouldn't offer him much, but I'd like him on the team for a reasonable amount.


I like the idea as well for 1-2 years at about 1.5 to 2MIL/year

If Jones is hurt he's a nice back to mesh with Dillon

And he's still a ST threat

[bobblehead]

He is not as good as you think. He was a bit above replacement in 2019. Rest of career he is the garbage prince who attained his crown of garbage king at th nfccg.
I don't think he is nfccg bad but he is at best a bit better than replacement. But at that price you can't expect much more.

No, he is better than you think. I watch a lot of NFL and there are a lot of bad CB in the league. As pointed out he was still hurt in the NFCC. Also the scheme got him beat on that end of half situation, which contributed to firing Pettine. (and greg williams, but that was a different game).

King when he is healthy is probably top 40 in the league. If I watched and graded the top 90 that most teams rely on he probably falls somewhere in the middle. That means having him as your #2 is just fine. Yes, I too would like to have 2 shutdown corners and all pros at every position and backup, but I live on planet earth in the real world. In that world King isn't "garbage". An opinion that sounds like something brandon would post however comes close to that definition. Not every player falls into the category of "best fucking evah" and "he is so fucking bad he single handedly ruins lives".

[bobblehead]

Cordarell Patterson's recent tweets indicate hints of him coming to Green Bay.

Thoughts ?

Similar to my post to upnorth. Patterson has a place on the roster as a returner. I remember him running down our throats lining up in the backfield for the Patriots a couple seasons ago. He would be much like Ervin. Not a bad guy to add if you don't plan on drafting a similar player....but only for near vets minimum. I don't mean to say he is on the level with King, but the "he sucks" idea is silly. Very good return specialist who can do a couple nice things in an offense that utilizes him. Maybe 15 snaps a game on offense with a touch or 2 in the right scenario type guy.

edit: But I would still prefer to bring back Ty Montgomery after McCarthy scapegoated him. MM sucked ass and was always looking to throw someone under the bus for his deficiencies. A lot of the problems with our special teams was due to not running schematic/situational drills on ST, just "talking" about them. And he stuck with the same shitty ST coaches for years.

[texaspackerbacker]

Patterson - as I said a few days ago, would absolutely solve our problem as a kick returner, and he'd be an excellent plug and play back up at both RB and WR. With him and Jones and Dillon, we don't need any more than a UDFA or Dexter Williams, assuming he's still around. And in a pinch, he could be a back up WR also. He would be head and shoulders better than Ervin ever was.

[Guiness]

Man, those Texans. They finished 4-12. They don't have a 1st round pick. Their starting QB doesn't want to play for them. They're 18 million over the cap. Other than that, everything's great.

From the Way Back machine (i.e. page 1 of this thread!).

The one great thing they still had, the trade value of that QB, is a. lot. less. great.

[Upnorth]

https://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/football/news/packers-kevin-king-shakes-injury-tag-470572/
14.9 yards per target. Not good at all.

https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/kevin-king/11788?season=2020
Pff grade of 56 65 and 55 over last 3 yrs. That's an average in the 80th range for CB. So solid #3 at best.

And finally a much better argument than what I have posted
https://www.acmepackingcompany.com/2021/3/23/22346534/grading-analytics-say-packers-re-signing-of-kevin-king-is-a-poor-investment

Overall saying garbage king may be an exagerration but I think it's amusing. Perhaps I'm going into brandon territory (I did bring up pff grades and use incendiary language) but I see him as a athletic corner who is a poor tackler that is always injured. I think he missed half (or more) of the games he is on the roster. I am completely ok with him as a #3 CB and his contract is appropriate for that. He is not an average #2. (I should have capitalized that and perhaps changed color. Shout out to woody).

I want him on the team for chemistry and for #3 purposes. We need a #2. Not a 1b as that isn't realistic. But calling him a #2 isn't realistic either.

[Zool]

Haha, from the AcmePacking article


I’d like to leave you with a question to ponder: If I offered you an investment option that was short-term, offered very little upside, but the odds of it being a complete waste of money were meaningfully high, would you invest in it?

I'm not a King guy, and I hope he's just an injury insurance sign, but this article is brutal. King's best year statistically puts him in the 50% of all graded corners. That's his ceiling.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I don't take PFF grades as gospel. They help paint a picture. A lot of it is subjective. Some of it is game dependent. For example, Green Bay has played with a lot of leads the last two years. Their CBs are often asked to play conservatively, so they'll take a hit statistically. My eye test says that King's ceiling is an above average CB (2019). However, he misses a lot of games and doesn't play well when he's nicked up. Realistically, we'll probably get a guy that is good the 1/3 of the time he is healthy. The other 2/3 of the time he'll miss games or play poorly because he's nicked up. I hope we get the 2019 King. That would be helpful. I'm not expecting it, but he's not a terrible insurance policy. I probably would have preferred other guys--because my patience has run out with King and Josh Jackson.

[bobblehead]

https://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/football/news/packers-kevin-king-shakes-injury-tag-470572/
14.9 yards per target. Not good at all.

https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/kevin-king/11788?season=2020
Pff grade of 56 65 and 55 over last 3 yrs. That's an average in the 80th range for CB. So solid #3 at best.

And finally a much better argument than what I have posted
https://www.acmepackingcompany.com/2021/3/23/22346534/grading-analytics-say-packers-re-signing-of-kevin-king-is-a-poor-investment

Overall saying garbage king may be an exagerration but I think it's amusing. Perhaps I'm going into brandon territory (I did bring up pff grades and use incendiary language) but I see him as a athletic corner who is a poor tackler that is always injured. I think he missed half (or more) of the games he is on the roster. I am completely ok with him as a #3 CB and his contract is appropriate for that. He is not an average #2. (I should have capitalized that and perhaps changed color. Shout out to woody).

I want him on the team for chemistry and for #3 purposes. We need a #2. Not a 1b as that isn't realistic. But calling him a #2 isn't realistic either.

I understand everyone wants to dump on him because of the NFCC game. He also plays opposite an elite CB which gets him targeted more often. So basically once you drop the hyperbole we don't truly disagree all that much. Yards per target is sort of a BS stat. But he was targeted enough that its somewhat relevant. He has been healthy once and my eyes told me he was much better than his PFF grade that year. Casey Heyward was a guy who flashed a little but was hurt all the time. Mica Hyde was playing out of position. JC Tretter was hurt early in his career. These are guys I lamented losing at the time when they didn't break the bank in FA. I am thrilled to bring back King on this contract. If he doesn't perform, no big deal. If he however is mostly healthy and looks like an NFL CB we can extend him.

The funny thing about the quote Zool put up is that it assumes certain things that simply aren't true. First and foremost that the real contract (4.75 million) is any kind of investment in NFL funny money terms. What if I offered you an investment in a put option against your apple stock that you hoped to never cash in, but protected you from the possible downside of not buying the put? Would that be a total waste?

[red]

I understand everyone wants to dump on him because of the NFCC game. He also plays opposite an elite CB which gets him targeted more often. So basically once you drop the hyperbole we don't truly disagree all that much. Yards per target is sort of a BS stat. But he was targeted enough that its somewhat relevant. He has been healthy once and my eyes told me he was much better than his PFF grade that year. Casey Heyward was a guy who flashed a little but was hurt all the time. Mica Hyde was playing out of position. JC Tretter was hurt early in his career. These are guys I lamented losing at the time when they didn't break the bank in FA. I am thrilled to bring back King on this contract. If he doesn't perform, no big deal. If he however is mostly healthy and looks like an NFL CB we can extend him.

The funny thing about the quote Zool put up is that it assumes certain things that simply aren't true. First and foremost that the real contract (4.75 million) is any kind of investment in NFL funny money terms. What if I offered you an investment in a put option against your apple stock that you hoped to never cash in, but protected you from the possible downside of not buying the put? Would that be a total waste?

It wasn't just the NFCCG. I got to go to both playoff games. I was shocked in the first game at just how far he ayed off the line. On a third and short he would line up ten yards off the guys, and start backpedaling at the snap

And I'm not exaggerating

For a guy to play that deep and just give up everything underneath, to then get burned by the deep ball when the whole world knows it's coming just shows that he just doesn't get it

[Zool]

Bobble, you're digging your heels in a bit on a guy who's just not very good. He's not bad, but we have seen his best and that was before lower body injuries. He's going to get worse. The best offer he had was a face saving 1 year deal for not a lot of money. If another team wanted him, he would be gone.

[RashanGary]

It wasn't just the NFCCG. I got to go to both playoff games. I was shocked in the first game at just how far he ayed off the line. On a third and short he would line up ten yards off the guys, and start backpedaling at the snap

And I'm not exaggerating

For a guy to play that deep and just give up everything underneath, to then get burned by the deep ball when the whole world knows it's coming just shows that he just doesn't get it

Yep. He has some head scratching moments. Everyone blames pettine, but why didn’t jaire, Amos or savage commit so many situational blunders and king did over and over? Maybe they’re coached to have some flexibility in the way they play and they’re expected to understand the situation and make little adjustments. You can’t call a play that plans out every step of every players movement, at some point, the player has to be able to adjust a little and make good decisions. King is the one guy who kept making bone headed plays. That doesn’t scream, coaching problem, to me.

[Upnorth]

Interesting worst case senario analysis from a Minnesota based website

https://zonecoverage.com/2021/packers/examining-the-worst-case-scenario-for-the-packers-in-2021/


Most of this stuff we have already talked about, but a non fan perspective is interesting to read.
It's good to be spoiled.

[bobblehead]

It wasn't just the NFCCG. I got to go to both playoff games. I was shocked in the first game at just how far he ayed off the line. On a third and short he would line up ten yards off the guys, and start backpedaling at the snap

And I'm not exaggerating

For a guy to play that deep and just give up everything underneath, to then get burned by the deep ball when the whole world knows it's coming just shows that he just doesn't get it

Or is it coaching? He was brought back. The coach was fired.

[bobblehead]

Bobble, you're digging your heels in a bit on a guy who's just not very good. He's not bad, but we have seen his best and that was before lower body injuries. He's going to get worse. The best offer he had was a face saving 1 year deal for not a lot of money. If another team wanted him, he would be gone.

I'm not really digging my heels in. I pointed out that we weren't that far off. I'm not trying to anoint King the second coming or anything. I'm simply saying that when healthy he is decent. I don't mind him at this price. I like it a lot better than trying to force a draft pick, or paying 13 million when we are already in cap hell.

[Joemailman]

Packers sign Tyler Lancaster. No word on money. Probably around the minimum.

[red]

Or is it coaching? He was brought back. The coach was fired.

But like RG said, why didn't any of the other guys in the secondary have the same problems?

[run pMc]

I don't think King is garbage, but I think they know what they have with him - when healthy he's an average corner. He's struggled with health, and that's gotten him into trouble.
The TD vs. Scotty Miller was bad technique and bad coaching -- Pettine shouldn't have called that, MLF should've called a TO to regroup before the snap, and King should've done... ANYTHING but what he did. Tackling Miller and getting a PI would've been better than letting him get a free release and letting him run past him like it was Cobb vs. Chris Conte.

It was obvious in the CAR game King was hurt when he got run down from behind, and I'm guessing teams noticed his speed on film and targeted him. That's just how the game is coached/played.

I'm not a fan of signing him, but I can understand why they did. Clearly they feel like he's at least good enough to play 8-11 games for them, and if they draft a CB high they can milk him for that time while the rookie learns (and eventually replaces) him. I don't see King as anything other than an outside corner, so I'm not sure what you get with him as a CB#3 (unless you're moving your CB2 inside and putting King outside). Is King better than Sullivan? I'm not sure.

You can't have enough corners, so signing him isn't awful. It makes me wonder what they think they have in Jackson and Hollman.

As for whether Barry will get more out of King than Pettine... I know very little about Barry's coaching acumen, so I can't say. I will say I'm not optimistic the 2021 Kevin King will be substantially different/better than what we've seen. I'm not sure we'll ever see 2019 Kevin King again.
Nobody really knows until the games start. I think Pettine didn't get the most out of his talent. If Barry can, they will have a good defense.

[Bretsky]

Packers sign Tyler Lancaster. No word on money. Probably around the minimum.



Just as excited about Lancaster as I am the Long Snapper we signed :)

[texaspackerbacker]

Packers sign Tyler Lancaster. No word on money. Probably around the minimum.

Well, if King isn't garbage, then we sank one step closer to it with Lancaster. Just the same, if he really did sign for the minimum or close to it, I suppose it's tolerable.

"I don't think King is garbage, but I think they know what they have with him - when healthy he's an average corner. He's struggled with health, and that's gotten him into trouble." - runMc nailed it with this line. As mediocre as King is and as flat out bad as Lancaster is, though, we went 13-3 and a playoff win with them playing major parts in our D. Now, we have a new D Coordinator who's hopefully an upgrade, and hopefully we get a first round Corner to plug in along with a little bit of other help in the draft, maybe even more FA help like Cordell Patterson returning kicks. We'll be all right, maybe even better this season.

[bobblehead]

But like RG said, why didn't any of the other guys in the secondary have the same problems?

Any number of reasons. Alexander often matches up to more twitchy guys, so its possible he is playing with more safety help. Alexander is also on another level so thats another good reason. As far as anyone else...well, they weren't put in the positions that King was. Or maybe I'm wrong and he really is horrible, but we had the 7th ranked pass D last year, while playing with a lead often so I am doubting he is as bad as people think based on a bad game while injured.

[Upnorth]

Any number of reasons. Alexander often matches up to more twitchy guys, so its possible he is playing with more safety help. Alexander is also on another level so thats another good reason. As far as anyone else...well, they weren't put in the positions that King was. Or maybe I'm wrong and he really is horrible, but we had the 7th ranked pass D last year, while playing with a lead often so I am doubting he is as bad as people think based on a bad game while injured.

When uninjured he is not nfccg bad. But that doesn't mean he is good enough to be a solid #2. And I think saying he is at best a poor #2 who needs to play better within the scheme is an accurate statement.

[bobblehead]

When uninjured he is not nfccg bad. But that doesn't mean he is good enough to be a solid #2. And I think saying he is at best a poor #2 who needs to play better within the scheme is an accurate statement.

Fair enough. I said he graded in the middle of 90 top guys. Probably puts him just outside average number 2. Would be nice to have better. I do think he is a solid #2. Or slightly below average #2. We are paying him in that range, so I'm good with it. We don't HAVE to overpay someone or reach in the draft now. We also still CAN draft a corner to replace him and it would be OK. So, as I said. We aren't that far off. Guys like him will start on every team. Look at the OL for the Seahawks. They could use a couple King level OL to improve their offense. I could go down every roster and find a position with a guy like King starting. Heck, right now, we will be starting one OL in the King range of talent if we don't improve somehow. We very well might be starting 2 ILB BELOW the king level. Our DE are below the king level unless Keke steps up.

I stand by my position. I'm happy to have king back at that price.

[QBME]

Just as excited about Lancaster as I am the Long Snapper we signed :)

We synch up on this one. Lancaster and Lowery...eh.

Couple of Northwestern intelligent short armed players.

Unless, of course, the new D Coordinator has some brilliant scheme in mind.

[Upnorth]

Anyone notice there was very little fake news yesterday? I was prepared for a rodgers traded column or something but there was nothing.
Are we be down by covid so much or are we so sensitive that they aren't doing it anymore?

My almost 5 year old got me by say I g one of the cats got into the house. Cute little smile she gave when I realised it made my day so much better

[Fritz]

We synch up on this one. Lancaster and Lowery...eh.

Couple of Northwestern intelligent short armed players.

Unless, of course, the new D Coordinator has some brilliant scheme in mind.

Joe Barry is a mad scientist who will inject arm-growth hormones into both players.

Look for a mysterious, large jump from both next year.

[RashanGary]

Fair enough. I said he graded in the middle of 90 top guys. Probably puts him just outside average number 2. Would be nice to have better. I do think he is a solid #2. Or slightly below average #2. We are paying him in that range, so I'm good with it. We don't HAVE to overpay someone or reach in the draft now. We also still CAN draft a corner to replace him and it would be OK. So, as I said. We aren't that far off. Guys like him will start on every team. Look at the OL for the Seahawks. They could use a couple King level OL to improve their offense. I could go down every roster and find a position with a guy like King starting. Heck, right now, we will be starting one OL in the King range of talent if we don't improve somehow. We very well might be starting 2 ILB BELOW the king level. Our DE are below the king level unless Keke steps up.

I stand by my position. I'm happy to have king back at that price.

Real talk. Every team has some less than stellar starters. Every single year a team wins the super bowl with some less than stellar players. It’s a requirement. Good to see we’ve checked that box :lol:

[call_me_ishmael]

Rodgers back on McAfee show.

https://twitter.com/PatMcAfeeShow/status/1379137308276965377

[Upnorth]

Fair enough. I said he graded in the middle of 90 top guys. Probably puts him just outside average number 2. Would be nice to have better. I do think he is a solid #2. Or slightly below average #2. We are paying him in that range, so I'm good with it. We don't HAVE to overpay someone or reach in the draft now. We also still CAN draft a corner to replace him and it would be OK. So, as I said. We aren't that far off. Guys like him will start on every team. Look at the OL for the Seahawks. They could use a couple King level OL to improve their offense. I could go down every roster and find a position with a guy like King starting. Heck, right now, we will be starting one OL in the King range of talent if we don't improve somehow. We very well might be starting 2 ILB BELOW the king level. Our DE are below the king level unless Keke steps up.

I stand by my position. I'm happy to have king back at that price.

I don't think you are definitely correct about the ol starting talent. It really depends on the jump our 3 picks make from last year. Runyon looks solid as a #1 rg at the least. And I remember reading good stuff about stepaniuk once he was practicing post knee injury. Plus if there is one area I trust the packers drafting the past 30 years its oline. Add in the itelligent play design by flower even my pessimism has to admit we don't know where we are at oline, and it's to early to say any are as bad (or good) as king.

[bobblehead]

I don't think you are definitely correct about the ol starting talent. It really depends on the jump our 3 picks make from last year. Runyon looks solid as a #1 rg at the least. And I remember reading good stuff about stepaniuk once he was practicing post knee injury. Plus if there is one area I trust the packers drafting the past 30 years its oline. Add in the itelligent play design by flower even my pessimism has to admit we don't know where we are at oline, and it's to early to say any are as bad (or good) as king.

I was referring to the Seahawks OL.

[Upnorth]

I was referring to the Seahawks OL.

Well that changes basically everything I Said.... Just let me wipe this egg off my face.

Changing gears ihave been thinking about 12s contract and the restructuring of it. Part of the reason our cap situation next year is what it is has to so with the 2019 restructure and that was why I thought gute has not done anything.
I am wondering if the real reason is he wants to wait till after the draft so he knows what areas really need a fa injection and do a minor restructure to address specifically that without doing as much future damage as last time.
He is a long term planner and that is a logical plan to me.

[Bretsky]

Fair enough. I said he graded in the middle of 90 top guys. Probably puts him just outside average number 2. Would be nice to have better. I do think he is a solid #2. Or slightly below average #2. We are paying him in that range, so I'm good with it. We don't HAVE to overpay someone or reach in the draft now. We also still CAN draft a corner to replace him and it would be OK. So, as I said. We aren't that far off. Guys like him will start on every team. Look at the OL for the Seahawks. They could use a couple King level OL to improve their offense. I could go down every roster and find a position with a guy like King starting. Heck, right now, we will be starting one OL in the King range of talent if we don't improve somehow. We very well might be starting 2 ILB BELOW the king level. Our DE are below the king level unless Keke steps up.

I stand by my position. I'm happy to have king back at that price.




He's a superstar compared to those to Northwestern yahooos on our DL

[bobblehead]

Well that changes basically everything I Said.... Just let me wipe this egg off my face.

Changing gears ihave been thinking about 12s contract and the restructuring of it. Part of the reason our cap situation next year is what it is has to so with the 2019 restructure and that was why I thought gute has not done anything.
I am wondering if the real reason is he wants to wait till after the draft so he knows what areas really need a fa injection and do a minor restructure to address specifically that without doing as much future damage as last time.
He is a long term planner and that is a logical plan to me.

Not a problem, sometimes I'm not clear with my rambling.

As to Rodgers, there is also the chance he is waiting til next years cap hell to pull that lever. He will know better which direction he wants to go. He can extend Rodgers or trade him or do nothing again in 2022 when we will still be in cap hell.

[bobblehead]

He's a superstar compared to those to Northwestern yahooos on our DL

Was sort of my point. You need serviceable guys. We do NOT have that next to Clark. We now have that next to Jaire and it didn't cost much. Now we don't need to press in the draft or overspend in FA, however if the right value is there you don't mind grabbing it.

[Bretsky]

Was sort of my point. You need serviceable guys. We do NOT have that next to Clark. We now have that next to Jaire and it didn't cost much. Now we don't need to press in the draft or overspend in FA, however if the right value is there you don't mind grabbing it.

There seem to be a ton of decent cb talent in free agency that could come cheap. Breeland...Hayward...etc. would love to pluck one if them

[bobblehead]

There seem to be a ton of decent cb talent in free agency that could come cheap. Breeland...Hayward...etc. would love to pluck one if them

Agreed, but they will see how the draft unfolds first. If we grab another Jaire, then they will live with king and sullivan. If we don't get value at CB in the draft they will likely try to bring someone like those guys in.

[Fritz]

Agreed, but they will see how the draft unfolds first. If we grab another Jaire, then they will live with king and sullivan. If we don't get value at CB in the draft they will likely try to bring someone like those guys in.

So did Gutes not extend or redo Rodgers's contract because he didn't want to burden the team salary cap further going forward and wanted the flexibility to get out from under that contract after this year, and was willing to go without in terms of signing more FA's?

Or is he waiting to see how the draft goes and how the bargain barrel looks before he decides how much re-doing Rodgers' contract needs in order to pick up the guys he wants in FA?

Or did he just forget to do it?

[bobblehead]

So did Gutes not extend or redo Rodgers's contract because he didn't want to burden the team salary cap further going forward and wanted the flexibility to get out from under that contract after this year, and was willing to go without in terms of signing more FA's?

Or is he waiting to see how the draft goes and how the bargain barrel looks before he decides how much re-doing Rodgers' contract needs in order to pick up the guys he wants in FA?

Or did he just forget to do it?

My opinion is that he is keeping his options regarding Rodgers open. I don't think he has made a decision at this point. I THINK that sometime soon they will extend adams as that gives them some help and is a must anyway. Remember, this team isn't out of the woods, they will be in cap hell next season as well. Should Rodgers put up another MVP type season they may completely redo his deal next year and extend him. I just have no clue what they are thinking. The thing that sticks in my craw though is 1) Rodgers not diving on the dropped snap vs. SF and Rodgers not running towards the goal line vs. TB. I just don't know if he has that fire in his belly anymore. Will that kind of thing factor in to Gutes thinking, or is Rodgers just so talented you can overlook it?

[Fritz]

My opinion is that he is keeping his options regarding Rodgers open. I don't think he has made a decision at this point. I THINK that sometime soon they will extend adams as that gives them some help and is a must anyway. Remember, this team isn't out of the woods, they will be in cap hell next season as well. Should Rodgers put up another MVP type season they may completely redo his deal next year and extend him. I just have no clue what they are thinking. The thing that sticks in my craw though is 1) Rodgers not diving on the dropped snap vs. SF and Rodgers not running towards the goal line vs. TB. I just don't know if he has that fire in his belly anymore. Will that kind of thing factor in to Gutes thinking, or is Rodgers just so talented you can overlook it?

For me, it's the not-running on third down against Tampa. Sure, he may not have made it. But surely he gets down to the five or so, I think. And that makes fourth down more makeable - think of the LA play when Adams went into motion and with a little flip from Rodgers he scores.

I don't understand Rodgers not taking off. But I suppose in so many ways he's so talented that you can overlook a lot of that getting-older type of decision-making, as the Pack did with Favre.

[texaspackerbacker]

My opinion is that he is keeping his options regarding Rodgers open. I don't think he has made a decision at this point. I THINK that sometime soon they will extend adams as that gives them some help and is a must anyway. Remember, this team isn't out of the woods, they will be in cap hell next season as well. Should Rodgers put up another MVP type season they may completely redo his deal next year and extend him. I just have no clue what they are thinking. The thing that sticks in my craw though is 1) Rodgers not diving on the dropped snap vs. SF and Rodgers not running towards the goal line vs. TB. I just don't know if he has that fire in his belly anymore. Will that kind of thing factor in to Gutes thinking, or is Rodgers just so talented you can overlook it?

I tend to agree, that's what he's doing. And if so, it absolutely pisses me off. There should be no question or need for options or anything like that about Rodgers, and acting like there is does nothing except keep the team from going after potential free agents. Retaining both Rodgers and Adams long term is essential to Packer success, and getting a decent free agent or two this season would certainly help too.

[bobblehead]

I tend to agree, that's what he's doing. And if so, it absolutely pisses me off. There should be no question or need for options or anything like that about Rodgers, and acting like there is does nothing except keep the team from going after potential free agents. Retaining both Rodgers and Adams long term is essential to Packer success, and getting a decent free agent or two this season would certainly help too.

You realize that Rodgers is under contract for 3 more seasons taking him to 40 years old right? The cash outlay is reasonable from here and the 2023 cap hit is very reasonable. Why should they do anything other than have him play out the next 3 years?

[texaspackerbacker]

Three strong reasons: 1. 3 more years is not enough - I, for one, am not ready to see the team go in the toilet in 3 years, which almost certainly will happen without Rodgers. 2. It would be beneficial if not absolutely necessary to generate some cap space to pick up a couple of quality free agents for the '21 season. It's highly probable that everybody will have a lot more cap space in future years. 3. It would shut up the people actually wanting to move on from Rodgers in even less than 3 years.

[Upnorth]

Three strong reasons: 1. 3 more years is not enough - I, for one, am not ready to see the team go in the toilet in 3 years, which almost certainly will happen without Rodgers. 2. It would be beneficial if not absolutely necessary to generate some cap space to pick up a couple of quality free agents for the '21 season. It's highly probable that everybody will have a lot more cap space in future years. 3. It would shut up the people actually wanting to move on from Rodgers in even less than 3 years.

We have a better roster and much better coach than the last time rodgers was injured so if love is just a jag we aren't in the toilet.
Plus we have no idea if love is a stud or a muffin. Implying you know otherwise is a fool's errand. That's regarding point 1.

Regarding point 3... Who says they want to move on in less than 3 years besides media? The people saying this would spin a new contract into someother thing like Lafluer hates gute and supports rodgers. Or love is garbage or some other dumb thing. That's there job. Our job is to fall for clickbait and generate advertising dollars.

[Joemailman]

It's ironic that Tex is as obsessed with the need to extend Rodgers' contract as those "media pukes" he used to criticize.

[texaspackerbacker]

Media pukes are obsessed with the need to extend Rodgers? Good for them if true, but I haven't seen or heard any. It's more like Upnorth said - mostly it's the media pukes stirring up crap on this and other topics. As for Jordan Love, correct, nobody can say at this point he's nothing but crap. It's just as correct, though, that nobody can say he ain't. What is pretty sure is that he ain't Aaron Rodgers or even close - virtually nobody is. As for the Packers being a whole lot better now than when Rodgers was hurt for a fairly long time, maybe a little bit but not all that much. We still can't win games with defense; Our O Line arguably is overrated because of Rodgers; I like our receivers but a lot of people don't; It boils down to Aaron Jones being the only significant improvement from before, and for a while it looked like they were gonna lose him. And is LaFleur that much better a coach than McCarthy? I'm generally with the yeses on that, but I'm not sold on the idea that his system can win much without Rodgers. I think we have a sub-.500 team without Rodgers.

[RashanGary]

Media pukes are obsessed with the need to extend Rodgers? Good for them if true, but I haven't seen or heard any. It's more like Upnorth said - mostly it's the media pukes stirring up crap on this and other topics. As for Jordan Love, correct, nobody can say at this point he's nothing but crap. It's just as correct, though, that nobody can say he ain't. What is pretty sure is that he ain't Aaron Rodgers or even close - virtually nobody is. As for the Packers being a whole lot better now than when Rodgers was hurt for a fairly long time, maybe a little bit but not all that much. We still can't win games with defense; Our O Line arguably is overrated because of Rodgers; I like our receivers but a lot of people don't; It boils down to Aaron Jones being the only significant improvement from before, and for a while it looked like they were gonna lose him. And is LaFleur that much better a coach than McCarthy? I'm generally with the yeses on that, but I'm not sold on the idea that his system can win much without Rodgers. I think we have a sub-.500 team without Rodgers.

Assuming Love is average or worse (a statistical probability) yeah, .500 at best without 12.

However, Ron Wolf disciples have a much better than average hit rate on quarterbacks, and great ones too. Favre, Rodgers, Wilson, Mahommes and even Carr/Mayfield are decent. So we might have the next great QB behind Rodgers and be just fine.

[texaspackerbacker]

ok, RG, you out-optimisted me hahahahaha.

I think even if Love is above average, they team will be way below average without Rodgers.

Wolf and his disciples had a lot of misses on QB picks too.

[Upnorth]

Even if they pick a qb this year it isnt a nail in the love muffin. When I dated I used the machine gun method. Shoot enough and you are bound to hit something. I think qb drafting is the same.
And I think an above average love gets us to 9-8 or 10-7.
Rodgers gets us to 12-5 at worst.
Unless Barry is as bad as I think he can be. Then we are screwed and we should kick some gute balls.

[bobblehead]

ok, RG, you out-optimisted me hahahahaha.

I think even if Love is above average, they team will be way below average without Rodgers.

Wolf and his disciples had a lot of misses on QB picks too.

If Rodgers is that dominant and the roster is shit, why do we need to free up cap space? Rodgers will win it himself or he won't.

Lets just be clear here. I am too lazy to look it up, but how many QBs have LONGER than 3 current years on their contract. Dak just signed for 4 years and he is young. Wilson has 3 years remaining. Matt Ryan is at 3 years left in contract. Hell, outside of Maholmes and Dak who JUST signed who has more than 3 years on their contract?

Rodgers is under contract and there is no reason to do anything.

[Upnorth]

If Rodgers is that dominant and the roster is shit, why do we need to free up cap space? Rodgers will win it himself or he won't.

Lets just be clear here. I am too lazy to look it up, but how many QBs have LONGER than 3 current years on their contract. Dak just signed for 4 years and he is young. Wilson has 3 years remaining. Matt Ryan is at 3 years left in contract. Hell, outside of Maholmes and Dak who JUST signed who has more than 3 years on their contract?

Rodgers is under contract and there is no reason to do anything.

I agree. Unless they chose to do things to buy a fa or two. But I would prefer to see them do something with Adams contract first. If they can minimize 2022 cap impact on Adams there is no more important contract right now.
I think most people keep forgetting he is 2 years into a 5 year extension that is catching up right now.

[texaspackerbacker]

The reason to free up cap space is that a lot of people aren't satisfied with 13-3 and getting to the NFC finals. To me, that ain't too bad, but whatever.

There is more reason to extend him - in order to keep him a lot more years and to make it less easy to dump him within the three years. Adding cap space while doing that is frosting on the cake.

[run pMc]

If Rodgers is that dominant and the roster is shit, why do we need to free up cap space? Rodgers will win it himself or he won't.

Lets just be clear here. I am too lazy to look it up, but how many QBs have LONGER than 3 current years on their contract. Dak just signed for 4 years and he is young. Wilson has 3 years remaining. Matt Ryan is at 3 years left in contract. Hell, outside of Maholmes and Dak who JUST signed who has more than 3 years on their contract?

Rodgers is under contract and there is no reason to do anything.

Agree. 3 years is plenty of time left on a contract, especially for a 37 year old QB. Yes, he had a great season. At the end of the season, even MURPHY admitted they'd be dumb to get rid of Rodgers. I don't think anything has changed. Unless Rodgers gets pissy and demands a trade, he'll be a Packer. Cutting him would be stupid, trading him would reap a lot of picks and imply Jordan Love was ready to play, and much much more than a talented but raw benchwarmer. They won't extend Rodgers unless they have to for cap space because it doesn't make sense to. Tom Brady is the unicorn as far as playing healthy past 41. Nobody else has done it with much efficacy, including Favre, Brees, et al. Rodgers might be different, but why lock up $30-40 million well in advance when you can slow play it out?

[sharpe1027]

The reason to free up cap space is that a lot of people aren't satisfied with 13-3 and getting to the NFC finals. To me, that ain't too bad, but whatever.

There is more reason to extend him - in order to keep him a lot more years and to make it less easy to dump him within the three years. Adding cap space while doing that is frosting on the cake.

If they don't win the SB, people will say it's because they didn't spend more in free agency or that they spent too much on the wrong players in free agency.

Those arguments feel right, but that doesn't make them sound. They make judgements in how to field the best team. There's no guarantees no matter what they do. It's not a binary decision of winning the Superbowl or just being consistently good.

[Bretsky]

If they don't win the SB, people will say it's because they didn't spend more in free agency or that they spent too much on the wrong players in free agency.

Those arguments feel right, but that doesn't make them sound. They make judgements in how to field the best team. There's no guarantees no matter what they do. It's not a binary decision of winning the Superbowl or just being consistently good.


Of course it's not an exact decision

But you can choose to hedge your bets on way or the other

It seems like GB alwasy chooses the be good route over the Go for the Gold

[bobblehead]

Of course it's not an exact decision

But you can choose to hedge your bets on way or the other

It seems like GB alwasy chooses the be good route over the Go for the Gold

They reap similar results to be honest. Being good (very) will let you sneak into the owl once in awhile and keep the fans happy. Going for the gold fails often, but gets you a ring about the same % of the time, but results in you being shitty often. The only outlier in this equation is the Patriots. Look at the Rams desperation to get a ring after coming oh so close. When is their next draft pick? 2027 ??

[sharpe1027]

They reap similar results to be honest. Being good (very) will let you sneak into the owl once in awhile and keep the fans happy. Going for the gold fails often, but gets you a ring about the same % of the time, but results in you being shitty often. The only outlier in this equation is the Patriots. Look at the Rams desperation to get a ring after coming oh so close. When is their next draft pick? 2027 ??

Do they really? 31 teams fail every year. What percentage "go for it all" each year?

[sharpe1027]

Of course it's not an exact decision

But you can choose to hedge your bets on way or the other

It seems like GB alwasy chooses the be good route over the Go for the Gold

I challenge the notion that there are even two distinct philosophies. They are trying to win it all each year. They also make some long term investments. Same as every team, really.

Is the primary measure how much money is spent in free agency for a particular year? If so, I have a hunch going for it all will have poor results from a pure statistical analysis.

[sharpe1027]

https://www.nbcsports.com/edge/article/offseason-research/super-bowl-champions-use-free-agency-correctly


The red trendline conveys that spending in free agency is inversely correlated with winning. The more teams spend in free agency the less they win.

[sharpe1027]

From the same article:


Not a single team was above average in free agency spending in the three years leading to their Super Bowl.

But none of these teams were at the extreme in terms of spending next to nothing in free agency.

Most spent close-to but just under the NFL average in free agency over that period leading to their Super Bowl.

[bobblehead]

Do they really? 31 teams fail every year. What percentage "go for it all" each year?

5-7. Teams that have "gone for it and won" recently are the Bucs and Denver. Both of them had the benefit of signing a good over the hill QB to complete a really good roster. Neither of them had a QB under a long contract causing them to draft at the back of every round.

[Bretsky]

They reap similar results to be honest. Being good (very) will let you sneak into the owl once in awhile and keep the fans happy. Going for the gold fails often, but gets you a ring about the same % of the time, but results in you being shitty often. The only outlier in this equation is the Patriots. Look at the Rams desperation to get a ring after coming oh so close. When is their next draft pick? 2027 ??



When you say the "outlier" of this equation is the Patriots.....that outlier has won so many times and went outside the box to get there with so many moves I would say they provide evident to go for it. As does Tampa Bay. We were so so close last year. A single move could have tipped the scale. Tee Higgins instead of Jordan Love ? Not saying that would have done it...but Maybe

Hear Jordy Nelson's comment on Rodgers last week ? That reflect the thoughts of nearly everybody outside of GB

I agree with Tex; Go for it Gutebag

[run pMc]

They brought back everyone except Linsley and Jamaal; they are in cap hell next year. They are going for it.

TB already had a lot of the pieces in place -- they mostly benefitted from swapping out Jameis for Brady (that alone is like going from Mitch to A-Rod), drafting high enough to get a very good starting OT and a good safety (Wirfs & Winfield).

[RashanGary]

When you say the "outlier" of this equation is the Patriots.....that outlier has won so many times and went outside the box to get there with so many moves I would say they provide evident to go for it. As does Tampa Bay. We were so so close last year. A single move could have tipped the scale. Tee Higgins instead of Jordan Love ? Not saying that would have done it...but Maybe

Hear Jordy Nelson's comment on Rodgers last week ? That reflect the thoughts of nearly everybody outside of GB

I agree with Tex; Go for it Gutebag

NE always seemed to make a couple small signings to fill a gap or two but often times did well with their small signings.

[bobblehead]

When you say the "outlier" of this equation is the Patriots.....that outlier has won so many times and went outside the box to get there with so many moves I would say they provide evident to go for it. As does Tampa Bay. We were so so close last year. A single move could have tipped the scale. Tee Higgins instead of Jordan Love ? Not saying that would have done it...but Maybe

Hear Jordy Nelson's comment on Rodgers last week ? That reflect the thoughts of nearly everybody outside of GB

I agree with Tex; Go for it Gutebag

I would argue just the opposite. The only year the Patriots signed a flashy FA was the year they "almost" went undefeated. Otherwise they sign smart discounted players that fit their system. They trade guys away at max value. They trade back for future draft capital often. I would say that honestly they NEVER go for it other than one exception.

Edit: By outlier I meant they have done the consistently good thing, but instead of only winning one or two over the years they won 7. I didn't mean anything close to outlier as in they go for it all the time and win 7.

[sharpe1027]

The facts are being ignored.

[sharpe1027]

5-7. Teams that have "gone for it and won" recently are the Bucs and Denver. Both of them had the benefit of signing a good over the hill QB to complete a really good roster. Neither of them had a QB under a long contract causing them to draft at the back of every round.

That does not equate to a percentage. It's two teams out of how many over how many years?

[run pMc]

Ask NO how going for it has worked out for them.
Likewise with LAR.

I'm not sure if the Khalil Mack trade was Chicago's idea of going all-in, but they gave up a LOT of draft capital.
Hey what happened to Vince Young and the Dream Team?

Ten years ago you could ask Dan Snyder; seems like since then someone in the FO there has told him he's drunk and to go home.

Every year there's an offseason winner, they almost never make it to the NFCCG much less win a SB.

[RashanGary]

Ask NO how going for it has worked out for them.
Likewise with LAR.

I'm not sure if the Khalil Mack trade was Chicago's idea of going all-in, but they gave up a LOT of draft capital.
Hey what happened to Vince Young and the Dream Team?

Ten years ago you could ask Dan Snyder; seems like since then someone in the FO there has told him he's drunk and to go home.

Every year there's an offseason winner, they almost never make it to the NFCCG much less win a SB.

This year could be different. Different environment with the cap drop. Better deals. New England, with cam in his second year, and a nice free agent haul, should move to or toward the upper tier teams in the AFC.

The Giants got better in the NFC and have Danny dimes in his third year (second year same offense.) Plus Barkley is back. So they look much improved and brought in a upper tier corner plus Kenny Golladay.

I expect the Giants and Patriots to break trend and actually succeed with the free agent splurges even though most of those teams fail.

[run pMc]

RG - agree they'll be better. I'm not sure they're going "all-in" though. Is Cam more than a stopgap? He made some atrocious decisions, but maybe Year 2 in the NE offense will be better for him.

[bobblehead]

That does not equate to a percentage. It's two teams out of how many over how many years?

5 to 7 out of 32 is certainly a percentage if you passed 9th grade math. And I don't recall how many years I went back, something like 15 probably because the game and cap situation/manipulation changes about that often. So, 2 of 15 have truly "gone for it" and won. 7 were the patriots. That leaves 6 that won without "going for it". If 5-7 try each year the midpoint of 6 x 15 years would suggest about 90 teams Have failed using said strategy while handicapping themselves. I would put US in that category 2 years ago when we went on a spending spree which helped put us in the cap situation we are in now.

We can just go back and forth all day. How do you define "going for it". Every year I see teams mortgage their futures. Sign all kinds of guys to record breaking deals. Saints are the extreme example currently. Bottom line is this. Packers were in tough cap shape and kicked some forward already. They will be in pretty bad shape next year.

The league is designed for parity. To elevate bad teams and deflate successful teams. We, and everyone else, have trouble winning multiple Owls because the system is intentionally rigged. We had the best QB in the game, now top 5 still and we draft in the back of EVERY round EVERY year. Our FA dollars are competing with EVERY other team so we can't just magically sign anyone we want to improve the team.

Going back to 2000 only 5 teams have won multiple owls. NE, Pitt, and Balt are known to NOT get into cap hell (yet PITT is currently trying its best to get into it). TB was 18 years apart. The Giants were just the luckiest team ever twice and didn't really sell out either time. That leaves 6 farts in the wind. If we had a competent head coach for the last 15 years I have no doubt our name would be on that list having done it the slow and steady way. Since we sold out under Gutes we have 2 "almosts". I'm ok with his approach overall, but next year will be a year of reckoning. They will either have to extend Rodgers, Trade Rodgers, or keep him with a much inferior roster to the one we have right now. There is no other approach next season.

[bobblehead]

This year could be different. Different environment with the cap drop. Better deals. New England, with cam in his second year, and a nice free agent haul, should move to or toward the upper tier teams in the AFC.

The Giants got better in the NFC and have Danny dimes in his third year (second year same offense.) Plus Barkley is back. So they look much improved and brought in a upper tier corner plus Kenny Golladay.

I expect the Giants and Patriots to break trend and actually succeed with the free agent splurges even though most of those teams fail.

Neither of those teams are in cap hell though even after the spending. They had a mountain of cap space. I think the Bengals do as well but didn't spend quite the same way. Plus NE is getting 4 opt out defenders back. Yea, they will be really good. Cam was pretty good before covid and losing edelman.

[wist43]

I don't know why you guys think Gute is going "all in" or selling out to FA.

His first year he signed 3 guys to pretty big contracts in FA, but he had to do that b/c of the organizations failures in the draft. Also, the first couple of years he actually filled holes in the roster through the draft.

Last year he ignored holes and literally threw away 1st, 3rd, and 4th rd picks. I expect more of the same this year. The outlier years for the organization were his first couple of years where he actually tried to fill out the roster.

Our cap problems are not born out of "going all in", they exist b/c of "signing our own", and having one of the highest paid QB's in the league.

In short, the organization has literally wasted the majority of the careers of 2 HOF QB's.

[Upnorth]

I don't know why you guys think Gute is going "all in" or selling out to FA.

His first year he signed 3 guys to pretty big contracts in FA, but he had to do that b/c of the organizations failures in the draft. Also, the first couple of years he actually filled holes in the roster through the draft.

Last year he ignored holes and literally threw away 1st, 3rd, and 4th rd picks. I expect more of the same this year. The outlier years for the organization were his first couple of years where he actually tried to fill out the roster.

Our cap problems are not born out of "going all in", they exist b/c of "signing our own", and having one of the highest paid QB's in the league.

In short, the organization has literally wasted the majority of the careers of 2 HOF QB's.

2011 2014 and 2020 were all teams that should have went to the Superbowl. 13 and 17 arod went down. 09 was basically our most complete team, except maybe 2020, that should not have lost in ari. 7 of the last 12 years can absolutely not be defined as wasted unless a Superbowl is your only measure of success. Yes I wish we had more. And now that I see Lafluer I really think coaching was substantially more respinsible for any defined lack on success than the roster.

[RashanGary]

Neither of those teams are in cap hell though even after the spending. They had a mountain of cap space. I think the Bengals do as well but didn't spend quite the same way. Plus NE is getting 4 opt out defenders back. Yea, they will be really good. Cam was pretty good before covid and losing edelman.

Patriots at +4000 is my small darling bet of the offseason. I made three others, including the Giants, predicting some nice free agent activity and chemistry at QB.

[wist43]

2011 2014 and 2020 were all teams that should have went to the Superbowl. 13 and 17 arod went down. 09 was basically our most complete team, except maybe 2020, that should not have lost in ari. 7 of the last 12 years can absolutely not be defined as wasted unless a Superbowl is your only measure of success. Yes I wish we had more. And now that I see Lafluer I really think coaching was substantially more respinsible for any defined lack on success than the roster.

I grew up during the Lombardi era... yes, championships are my standard.

Who lost the NFC Championship Game in 1975, '83, 06, etc... all anyone remembers or commemorates is Championships.

We've won 4 since 1967, that's the only stat that matters.

[sharpe1027]

5 to 7 out of 32 is certainly a percentage if you passed 9th grade math. And I don't recall how many years I went back, something like 15 probably because the game and cap situation/manipulation changes about that often. So, 2 of 15 have truly "gone for it" and won. 7 were the patriots. That leaves 6 that won without "going for it". If 5-7 try each year the midpoint of 6 x 15 years would suggest about 90 teams Have failed using said strategy while handicapping themselves. I would put US in that category 2 years ago when we went on a spending spree which helped put us in the cap situation we are in now.

We can just go back and forth all day. How do you define "going for it". Every year I see teams mortgage their futures. Sign all kinds of guys to record breaking deals. Saints are the extreme example currently. Bottom line is this. Packers were in tough cap shape and kicked some forward already. They will be in pretty bad shape next year.

The league is designed for parity. To elevate bad teams and deflate successful teams. We, and everyone else, have trouble winning multiple Owls because the system is intentionally rigged. We had the best QB in the game, now top 5 still and we draft in the back of EVERY round EVERY year. Our FA dollars are competing with EVERY other team so we can't just magically sign anyone we want to improve the team.

Going back to 2000 only 5 teams have won multiple owls. NE, Pitt, and Balt are known to NOT get into cap hell (yet PITT is currently trying its best to get into it). TB was 18 years apart. The Giants were just the luckiest team ever twice and didn't really sell out either time. That leaves 6 farts in the wind. If we had a competent head coach for the last 15 years I have no doubt our name would be on that list having done it the slow and steady way. Since we sold out under Gutes we have 2 "almosts". I'm ok with his approach overall, but next year will be a year of reckoning. They will either have to extend Rodgers, Trade Rodgers, or keep him with a much inferior roster to the one we have right now. There is no other approach next season.

It's a percentage, just not the right one. You claimed the success rate was about the same for either approach. To determine that, you need to count how many teams took each approach and use that as your denominator. 9th grade math, indeed.

In order to make that calculation, you need to define how you define go for it. Good luck with that, but since you made the claim, you should back it up.

[Upnorth]

I grew up during the Lombardi era... yes, championships are my standard.

Who lost the NFC Championship Game in 1975, '83, 06, etc... all anyone remembers or commemorates is Championships.

We've won 4 since 1967, that's the only stat that matters.

I agree it is the most important stat. But far from the inly one in my opinion.

[sharpe1027]

I grew up during the Lombardi era... yes, championships are my standard.

Who lost the NFC Championship Game in 1975, '83, 06, etc... all anyone remembers or commemorates is Championships.

We've won 4 since 1967, that's the only stat that matters.

There's no right or wrong way to follow your favorite team. I enjoyed many things besides the championships and recall many other seasons fondly. Each to his own.

[RashanGary]

There's no right or wrong way to follow your favorite team. I enjoyed many things besides the championships and recall many other seasons fondly. Each to his own.

Me too. 2007 is one of my most memorable years. I look back on it similarly to the 2010 run. I felt like they were gonna win it but both Jolly and KGB were injuried and the defense fell apart down the stretch. But that was a great Favre year, my favorite Favre year post super bowl.

[RashanGary]

I’m 40 years old. My favorite Packer seasons are:

2007
2010
2020

I was too young for 1996. I loved the years but don’t remember the quality of team or nuances because I didn’t understand football at 15 years old like I did in my 20s abd 30s

[RashanGary]

1989 - as a kid I loved magic and sharpe
1996 - still a kid, loved Reggie and favre
2007 - favres greatest season later in career, and Woodson
2010 - Rodgers, Driver, Jennings, Collins, Woodson, Nelson
2020 - Rodgers, Adams, Jones, Z, Alexander and Clark

I loved the Sitton and Lang years on the OL and the Bakh and Bulaga years, and the years with like 5 WRs and Lacy, etc..... I definitely appreciate a lot more than just the SB runs

[RashanGary]

The year we had Bakh/Sitton/(LindsleyTretter)/Lang/Bulaga.... it might have been two years. No weapons, Nelson was hurt, dick rod was our #2 passing weapon. Rodgers would stand back, step forward, go back again, forward, and eventually someone would come open. That was unique football.

[wist43]

Enjoying the building process and analyzing the draft and trades is all part of being a fan too.

You guys are young enough that you didn't have to endure the dark years. You're spoiled... but, such is the life condition of your pathetic generation ;)

[sharpe1027]

Enjoying the building process and analyzing the draft and trades is all part of being a fan too.

You guys are young enough that you didn't have to endure the dark years. You're spoiled... but, such is the life condition of your pathetic generation ;)

I suffered through times when the best parts of the season were giving the bears a tougher game than it should be and the expections of a high draft picks, which were subsequently used on players like Tony Mandrich.

[RashanGary]

Enjoying the building process and analyzing the draft and trades is all part of being a fan too.

You guys are young enough that you didn't have to endure the dark years. You're spoiled... but, such is the life condition of your pathetic generation ;)

Shut up, wist :lol:

[wist43]

Shut up, wist :lol:

Lol :lol:

[run pMc]

I suffered through times when the best parts of the season were giving the bears a tougher game than it should be and the expections of a high draft picks, which were subsequently used on players like Tony Mandrich.

Or Brent Fumblewood. Or David Whitehurst. Yeah, I remember the bad old days and don't wish them back. Cheering for a contender is much better.

[Upnorth]

I asked my mom and dad how to get a Mandrich jersey. I was very stupid.
I remember telling friends that majik was as good as Marino.
I was an idiot

[RashanGary]

I asked my mom and dad how to get a Mandrich jersey. I was very stupid.
I remember telling friends that majik was as good as Marino.
I was an idiot

Majik WAS as good as Marino :lol:

[bobblehead]

Patriots at +4000 is my small darling bet of the offseason. I made three others, including the Giants, predicting some nice free agent activity and chemistry at QB.

I love patriots over 9 wins. I realize they no longer play in the weakest division in football as even the Jets look to be much improved, but they are immensely improved.

[bobblehead]

I grew up during the Lombardi era... yes, championships are my standard.

Who lost the NFC Championship Game in 1975, '83, 06, etc... all anyone remembers or commemorates is Championships.

We've won 4 since 1967, that's the only stat that matters.

Then you will be very disappointed almost every season in the salary cap era. The league is designed to STOP repeat winners.

[bobblehead]

It's a percentage, just not the right one. You claimed the success rate was about the same for either approach. To determine that, you need to count how many teams took each approach and use that as your denominator. 9th grade math, indeed.

In order to make that calculation, you need to define how you define go for it. Good luck with that, but since you made the claim, you should back it up.

I made the claim and I stand by it. If you want to DISPROVE it the onus is on you to do the math and show me I'm flawed. I'm offering an opinion on a message board. I offered you mountains of data in FYI and just like ismael, you ignore data you don't like, so I'm not in the mood to poor over tons of past seasons to prove something that was offered partly as opinion anyway.

I reiterate, every year we have teams that win the offseason. Most of them don't win the Owl. That is indisputable as only 1 team actually wins it. Every year you have a similar number of teams who "lose" the offseason but grow organically and try to consistently field a top notch team. Most of the don't win an Owl. That is equally indisputable. So if you want to continue to nitpick minutiae feel free. But do me the favor of offering up something, anything to disprove my point instead of saying "do they really" and pretending you just owned me.

I'm actually very open to being corrected if you can offer me a reasonable argument to make me think my point is ill conceived. You haven't.

[Fritz]

I grew up during the Lombardi era... yes, championships are my standard.

Who lost the NFC Championship Game in 1975, '83, 06, etc... all anyone remembers or commemorates is Championships.

We've won 4 since 1967, that's the only stat that matters.

So the success of the organization, as a whole, as evidenced by championships, is the only statistic that matters?

Good observation, Comrade Wist.

[Joemailman]

I don't buy the idea that no one in Miami remembers Dan Marino. Or Brewers fans Yount and Molitor. Winning the Super Bowl or World Series is the ultimate achievement, but not the only one. Al Harris' Pick 6 to beat Seattle in the playoffs should just be forgotten because Packers didn't win the Super Bowl? Being a Packers fan for the last 10 years has been no better than being a Jets fan? Not from where I'm sitting.

[Zool]

I don't buy the idea that no one in Miami remembers Dan Marino. Or Brewers fans Yount and Molitor. Winning the Super Bowl or World Series is the ultimate achievement, but not the only one. Al Harris' Pick 6 to beat Seattle in the playoffs should just be forgotten because Packers didn't win the Super Bowl? Being a Packers fan for the last 10 years has been no better than being a Jets fan? Not from where I'm sitting.

Lions fans all nodding along.

https://i.imgur.com/VAaBpei.gif

[sharpe1027]

I made the claim and I stand by it. If you want to DISPROVE it the onus is on you to do the math and show me I'm flawed. I'm offering an opinion on a message board. I offered you mountains of data in FYI and just like ismael, you ignore data you don't like, so I'm not in the mood to poor over tons of past seasons to prove something that was offered partly as opinion anyway.

I reiterate, every year we have teams that win the offseason. Most of them don't win the Owl. That is indisputable as only 1 team actually wins it. Every year you have a similar number of teams who "lose" the offseason but grow organically and try to consistently field a top notch team. Most of the don't win an Owl. That is equally indisputable. So if you want to continue to nitpick minutiae feel free. But do me the favor of offering up something, anything to disprove my point instead of saying "do they really" and pretending you just owned me.

I'm actually very open to being corrected if you can offer me a reasonable argument to make me think my point is ill conceived. You haven't.

What an asshole.

[sharpe1027]

I made the claim and I stand by it. If you want to DISPROVE it the onus is on you to do the math and show me I'm flawed.

There is nothing to disprove. You provided no data. You made a claim based on something I can't measure because it relies upon a definition of a term you admitted you did not have a definition for.

[sharpe1027]

I offered you mountains of data in FYI and just like ismael, you ignore data you don't like, so I'm not in the mood to poor over tons of past seasons to prove something that was offered partly as opinion anyway.
.

I am not sure exactly what you are talking about. I haven't been in FYI more than once and it was months ago, but whatever happened I'm sure it's very important to you since you still carry some sort of grudge.

[sharpe1027]

I reiterate, every year we have teams that win the offseason. Most of them don't win the Owl. That is indisputable as only 1 team actually wins it. Every year you have a similar number of teams who "lose" the offseason but grow organically and try to consistently field a top notch team. Most of the don't win an Owl. That is equally indisputable. So if you want to continue to nitpick minutiae feel free. But do me the favor of offering up something, anything to disprove my point instead of saying "do they really" and pretending you just owned me.


See, here's the thing. You've pointed out that both methods fail. That's great. No dispute there. That's a far cry from a conclusion that they have the same success rate.

[sharpe1027]

I made the claim and I stand by it. If you want to DISPROVE it the onus is on you to do the math and show me I'm flawed. I'm offering an opinion on a message board.
One last point, I'm not trying to disprove you. You might be right! I just have no idea how to determine whether your right or wrong.

[Bretsky]

Then you will be very disappointed almost every season in the salary cap era. The league is designed to STOP repeat winners.


Did anybody share that with Hoody Genius, Hoody Genius Jr, and the GOAT ? A well managed team with a franchise QB ......... hmmmmm

[RashanGary]

Did anybody share that with Hoody Genius, Hoody Genius Jr, and the GOAT ? A well managed team with a franchise QB ......... hmmmmm

There has been a lot of controversy to that throne. Lots of cheating and bad ref calls along the way.

[Bretsky]

There has been a lot of controversy to that throne. Lots of cheating and bad ref calls along the way.


all the sour grapes is because of jealousy. They are the dynasty we want to be and our time clock with the franchise QB.....moves...tick tock tick tock. the GooterLuvMachine is coming

[SudsMcBucky]

all the sour grapes is because of jealousy. They are the dynasty we want to be and our time clock with the franchise QB.....moves...tick tock tick tock. the GooterLuvMachine is coming

It also doesn't hurt when your franchise QB had long taken team friendly deals to allow them to keep an all-around solid roster for him.

[Fritz]

Did anybody share that with Hoody Genius, Hoody Genius Jr, and the GOAT ? A well managed team with a franchise QB ......... hmmmmm

So I wonder if, in 2012, or 2013, or 2015, or 2019, when the Patriots did not get to the Super Bowl, or in 2011 or 2017 when they lost the Super Bowl, Patriot fans groused about what a failure their teams were since the Patriots did not win the Super Bowl? If winning championships is the "only" statistic that matters, the Patriots were a shitty organization in all of those years.

[Upnorth]

So the success of the organization, as a whole, as evidenced by championships, is the only statistic that matters?

Good observation, Comrade Wist.

Wist, I keep forgetting that one wr played from 88 to 94 then got a weird injury that ended their career. But never won the bowl so I keep forgetting who he was.
You remember his name?

[run pMc]

I think it depends on your goals. Most of these coaches and organizations have multiple goals, not just winning the Super Bowl (although that is the ULTIMATE goal).
Other important goals would be to establish and maintain a good leadership and culture, develop your young players into quality contributors if not starters, handle the cap responsibly, stay healthy, and win the division.
I'm sure there are plenty of others, but consider the goals of a bottom feeding team like JAX.

Urban Meyer will likely be considered having a successful season if he wins 4-5 games, and Trevor Lawrence & Co. show progress. He can say his goal is to win Championships - of course it is - but any sane person (and the Vegas bookies) will tell you that to expect a team to go from last to first is a highly unlikely scenario. Goals are relative and have to be realistic, else they're pipe dreams. Setting unrealistic goals can give you something nice to shoot for, but odds are slim you'll reach them and consistently setting them can be actually be demoralizing.

The 2011 and 2014 GB teams should have made the SB. Last year's team probably should have also. Matchups and momentum in the playoffs are important; TB was a bad matchup for GB (FWIW, LAR was a tough matchup also, but injuries to Donald, Kupp and Goff helped GB). I would say the way the season ended was disappointing, but I wouldn't call it a failure. Most owners wouldn't think twice about giving up their favorite yacht to make the NFCCG two years in row, nevermind 5 times in a decade.

[bobblehead]

all the sour grapes is because of jealousy. They are the dynasty we want to be and our time clock with the franchise QB.....moves...tick tock tick tock. the GooterLuvMachine is coming

Not really. I'm no more jealous of the Patriots than I am of a utility infielder in MLB. They both live very rich lives because of their sports talent. One wins super bowls the other lives the dream. Not jealous to point out the Patriots REALLY get the benefit of a lot of calls. Since I'm not a Bellichek hater or a Brady hater I think I'm pretty objective on this. They simply get away with more historically and specifically they get away with it in the biggest moments. No, I'm not going to rehash the data, so you can simply call me an asshole if you want to.

[Joemailman]

Wist, I keep forgetting that one wr played from 88 to 94 then got a weird injury that ended their career. But never won the bowl so I keep forgetting who he was.
You remember his name?

You know, there are supplements you can take that will Sharpen your memory.

[Zool]

You know, there are supplements you can take that will Sharpen your memory.

I usually have a Sterling memory for these types of things, but not this time?

[call_me_ishmael]

Amazing move by the Chiefs. I understand the economic realities on the game but the Chiefs have been up against the cap for two years now I believe and they still manage to improve the team with moves like this. Where are the Packers during all of this? I'm not for signing big names that are just a big name and injury prone (see JJ Watt), but there are some legitimate players out there that could put them over the top. Signing a CB like Fuller or an LB like Lavonte David could have fundamentally changed the team's likelihood of winning the big game this year.

https://www.nfl.com/news/chiefs-acquire-lt-orlando-brown-in-trade-with-ravens?campaign=Twitter_atn

Why not take a shot at Mitchell Swartz? He'll be on a cheapo one year deal and if he works out he fundamentally changes the team's chances (I still draft a tackle in round one).

It frustrates me because there is a high probability they don't get as close as they were last year to the super bowl again in the next decade. Who knows if they'll even be competitive this year. But they should at least try to be.

[Joemailman]

Interesting move by the Ravens. That gives them picks 27 and 31. Hope this doesn't mean they'll be taking Teven Jenkins at 27.

[RashanGary]

Interesting move by the Ravens. That gives them picks 27 and 31. Hope this doesn't mean they'll be taking Teven Jenkins at 27.

Gute said OL and CB are the deepest positions. And if you look at OL its a lot of tackles. I'm sure the ravens feel good about the class. The Packers and Ravens are two teams who always draft good OL. And we just hired away their OL guru, Milt Hendrickson, two years ago so our OL prowess probably improved.

I have a good feeling we’re gonna find a tackle this year, and good one. I'm with partial in liking Liam Echenberg. Bob McGinn has him at the 5th tackle just after Jenkins. Eichenberg fits the Packers style of OL. I'm ok with either Jenkins or Eichenberg. I like Mayfield a lot in the second. McGinns scouts said he played better than he tested but dropped him because of.the athletic issues. I like our chances of moving up in the second for Mayfield too.

[RashanGary]

From Bob McGinn on Jalen Mayfield

“He’s got no lower body, which scares me,” said one scout. “I didn’t like the (pro day). Never saw him explode. I thought he played more athletic than what he tested. He quickly makes contact, which he has to do because of the short arms (32⅝ inches). I didn’t think he was consistent with his leverage. He more or less used his upper body to steer guys and wall ’em off rather than nasty-drive ’em out.”

Third-year junior from Grand Rapids, Mich., played sparingly off the bench at left tackle in 2018 before starting 15 games at right tackle in 2019 and ’20. Declared for the draft after his second game last season.

“The longer I kept watching him, I thought this guy can be a really good guard,” a second scout said. “Somebody will try to make him a tackle. I’m not sure somebody won’t try to make him a left tackle because he has enough athletic ability. He’s got great bend. He did the pulling and the movement stuff in space really (well). I thought he played pretty smart.”

[RashanGary]

What I liked about Mayfield was how natural and smart he was. He always had a good position and leverage and balance. He was only 245 his freshman year so bunker up 80 pounds in 2.5 years. I think he has more athletic ability because he's still filling out his frame and turning some of that quick gained bad weight into good weight. I have a really good feeling that Jalen Mayfield is gonna be a long time rock-solid tackle and a steal in the second round. He needs one more year to get his body right so there is some projecting there but he could turn out to be as good as the top 2 guys.

[Bretsky]

So I wonder if, in 2012, or 2013, or 2015, or 2019, when the Patriots did not get to the Super Bowl, or in 2011 or 2017 when they lost the Super Bowl, Patriot fans groused about what a failure their teams were since the Patriots did not win the Super Bowl? If winning championships is the "only" statistic that matters, the Patriots were a shitty organization in all of those years.


They failed to win the title's those years.

But their batting percentage has been pretty good over the last 10 years. Kudos to the Pats

[Bretsky]

Not really. I'm no more jealous of the Patriots than I am of a utility infielder in MLB. They both live very rich lives because of their sports talent. One wins super bowls the other lives the dream. Not jealous to point out the Patriots REALLY get the benefit of a lot of calls. Since I'm not a Bellichek hater or a Brady hater I think I'm pretty objective on this. They simply get away with more historically and specifically they get away with it in the biggest moments. No, I'm not going to rehash the data, so you can simply call me an asshole if you want to.

I don't call others assholes in forums.....well...unless I call myself one :)

I would agree that the Pats get some calls and the officials have treated them way too good

As a fan I am undoubtedly jealous and would love to take all the favoritism they got and the titles and transfer then to GB

[Bretsky]

Interesting move by the Ravens. That gives them picks 27 and 31. Hope this doesn't mean they'll be taking Teven Jenkins at 27.



In my last ten years of watching the draft is really seems like the Ravens take the guy I want.....backup award would go to the Pittsburg Steelers.

[Bretsky]

Gute said OL and CB are the deepest positions. And if you look at OL its a lot of tackles. I'm sure the ravens feel good about the class. The Packers and Ravens are two teams who always draft good OL. And we just hired away their OL guru, Milt Hendrickson, two years ago so our OL prowess probably improved.

I have a good feeling we’re gonna find a tackle this year, and good one. I'm with partial in liking Liam Echenberg. Bob McGinn has him at the 5th tackle just after Jenkins. Eichenberg fits the Packers style of OL. I'm ok with either Jenkins or Eichenberg. I like Mayfield a lot in the second. McGinns scouts said he played better than he tested but dropped him because of.the athletic issues. I like our chances of moving up in the second for Mayfield too.



I REALLY think this is the year to stay put in round one and TED THOMPSON pick round one and then use the 4th to move up in round two

[Bretsky]

From Bob McGinn on Jalen Mayfield

“He’s got no lower body, which scares me,” said one scout. “I didn’t like the (pro day). Never saw him explode. I thought he played more athletic than what he tested. He quickly makes contact, which he has to do because of the short arms (32⅝ inches). I didn’t think he was consistent with his leverage. He more or less used his upper body to steer guys and wall ’em off rather than nasty-drive ’em out.”

Third-year junior from Grand Rapids, Mich., played sparingly off the bench at left tackle in 2018 before starting 15 games at right tackle in 2019 and ’20. Declared for the draft after his second game last season.

“The longer I kept watching him, I thought this guy can be a really good guard,” a second scout said. “Somebody will try to make him a tackle. I’m not sure somebody won’t try to make him a left tackle because he has enough athletic ability. He’s got great bend. He did the pulling and the movement stuff in space really (well). I thought he played pretty smart.”



Where are you finding the McGinn stuff ? In the Athletic or on his site ?

I know everybody in here hated the Bobber

I found him the best writer on the Green Bay Packers I've ever followed, hands down. And his draft stuff was far superior to anything I saw on the NET

I'm catching a few fun podcasts though.

One dude was discussings Gutebags draft day bias and noted some similar to Teds......and then he systematically took about 8 different analysts and mixed it with the measurables Gute love and found about 112 draftable players for Green Bay.

About 20 with 1st round grades.....I think 24 for 2nd round grades......but only about 12 with 4th round grades. and a bunch with 5th to 7th round grades

He really thought odds are strong Gute trades one or both based on his research

[Bretsky]

What I liked about Mayfield was how natural and smart he was. He always had a good position and leverage and balance. He was only 245 his freshman year so bunker up 80 pounds in 2.5 years. I think he has more athletic ability because he's still filling out his frame and turning some of that quick gained bad weight into good weight. I have a really good feeling that Jalen Mayfield is gonna be a long time rock-solid tackle and a steal in the second round. He needs one more year to get his body right so there is some projecting there but he could turn out to be as good as the top 2 guys.


I am cool with Mayfield in round 2...............you get my OL attention for James Carpenter

WHO was big time pimping Jaelen Reagor last year ? That dude looks like he "might" have been all hype.

[Joemailman]

I am cool with Mayfield in round 2...............you get my OL attention for James Carpenter

WHO was big time pimping Jaelen Reagor last year ? That dude looks like he "might" have been all hype.

I liked Reagor. Brandon loved him. I wouldn't write Reagor off. Missed 5 games and had about 400 yards receiving. Returned a punt for a TD. Not terrible for a rookie. Especially for a guy on a team with bad QB situation and bad offensive line.

[Upnorth]

Joe, zool, I appreciate your caring words but it doesn't matter. He didn't win a Superbowl.
I was thinking of lofting another we example up in to the air for discussion, but he is a forgettable loser as well.

[RashanGary]

Where are you finding the McGinn stuff ? In the Athletic or on his site ?

I know everybody in here hated the Bobber

I found him the best writer on the Green Bay Packers I've ever followed, hands down. And his draft stuff was far superior to anything I saw on the NET

I'm catching a few fun podcasts though.

One dude was discussings Gutebags draft day bias and noted some similar to Teds......and then he systematically took about 8 different analysts and mixed it with the measurables Gute love and found about 112 draftable players for Green Bay.

About 20 with 1st round grades.....I think 24 for 2nd round grades......but only about 12 with 4th round grades. and a bunch with 5th to 7th round grades

He really thought odds are strong Gute trades one or both based on his research

Do an author search at the athletic. Search Bob McGinn

[RashanGary]

McGinn did WRs, OL and QB's so far. I like the smaller WRs who can do slot and gadget stuff. Rondale Moore looks good to me. I was glad to see the scouts said he was smart too. I don't know what they're being asked.to do and don't watch every game.so that's always a hard judgement for me to make. You don't want to call anyone tyreek Hill, but in that mold. Perfect for what we need

[RashanGary]

Guys I like - 1st round

Jeremiah Owusu Koramoa
Liam Eichenberg

2nd round
Rondale Moore
Jalen Mayfield

[Bretsky]

Newsome
Bateman
Jenkins
Collins would be my wishlist

[RashanGary]

Newsome
Bateman
Jenkins
Collins would be my wishlist

I like 3 of the 4 tentatively. Havent watched full games of Newsome and Bateman so just going off of write ups. Jenkins looks fine. Its just Collins I'm not a huge fan of cuz he was kinda boring to watch

[call_me_ishmael]

Interesting move by the Ravens. That gives them picks 27 and 31. Hope this doesn't mean they'll be taking Teven Jenkins at 27.

I think the Ravens are too smart to take a linemen from a nobody school like OSU and will instead trade back and either grab the guy from Alabama or ND. Best drafting team in the league.

[sharpe1027]

Not really. I'm no more jealous of the Patriots than I am of a utility infielder in MLB. They both live very rich lives because of their sports talent. One wins super bowls the other lives the dream. Not jealous to point out the Patriots REALLY get the benefit of a lot of calls. Since I'm not a Bellichek hater or a Brady hater I think I'm pretty objective on this. They simply get away with more historically and specifically they get away with it in the biggest moments. No, I'm not going to rehash the data, so you can simply call me an asshole if you want to.

This is why you get called an asshole. You have to keep taking cheap shots/personal jabs. For example, insulting me with a comment about 9th grade math. Then you accused me ignoring data from some perceived transgression months and months ago. Now you take another shot here. It's fine, but I stand by my comment. You act like an asshole.

[bobblehead]

Amazing move by the Chiefs. I understand the economic realities on the game but the Chiefs have been up against the cap for two years now I believe and they still manage to improve the team with moves like this. Where are the Packers during all of this? I'm not for signing big names that are just a big name and injury prone (see JJ Watt), but there are some legitimate players out there that could put them over the top. Signing a CB like Fuller or an LB like Lavonte David could have fundamentally changed the team's likelihood of winning the big game this year.

https://www.nfl.com/news/chiefs-acquire-lt-orlando-brown-in-trade-with-ravens?campaign=Twitter_atn

Why not take a shot at Mitchell Swartz? He'll be on a cheapo one year deal and if he works out he fundamentally changes the team's chances (I still draft a tackle in round one).

It frustrates me because there is a high probability they don't get as close as they were last year to the super bowl again in the next decade. Who knows if they'll even be competitive this year. But they should at least try to be.

The chiefs had to cut 2 tackles to make these amazing moves. Their OL is no better this year than last, and they gave up draft capital to do it. I'm not convinced the chiefs had a good offseason.

I don't disagree on grabbing Schwartz if he can be had on a cheap one year. Not sure he can be at this point. Also, they won't do anything until after the draft because if the right OT drops into their lap Schwartz would just be a wasted signing.

[bobblehead]

I don't call others assholes in forums.....well...unless I call myself one :)

I would agree that the Pats get some calls and the officials have treated them way too good

As a fan I am undoubtedly jealous and would love to take all the favoritism they got and the titles and transfer then to GB

Fire away. I'm trying to provoke conversation and people take it the wrong way sometimes. Its all good. I'll let him be for a bit.

As for the packers and the officials we have gotten the benefit of plenty of calls last couple years....but in the biggest moment in last years NFCC we definitely were on the short end of the stick.

[bobblehead]

In my last ten years of watching the draft is really seems like the Ravens take the guy I want.....backup award would go to the Pittsburg Steelers.

Repped, and ditto. Happens every damn year. Honorary mention to the Jets for trading up ahead of us to grab Revis years ago.

[bobblehead]

This is why you get called an asshole. You have to keep taking cheap shots/personal jabs. For example, insulting me with a comment about 9th grade math. Then you accused me ignoring data from some perceived transgression months and months ago. Now you take another shot here. It's fine, but I stand by my comment. You act like an asshole.

You seem obsessed. I'm not sure what in my Patriots post has you triggered, but its fine. I have actually only been called an asshole by you. Yes, the 9th grade math was a cheap shot. My apologies. It was meant more tongue in cheek, but things get lost in text without inflection. I was going to just let it all go, but since you came back to it I offer you my apology. Hopefully we can get back to meaningful and fun football discussion.

[sharpe1027]

You seem obsessed. I'm not sure what in my Patriots post has you triggered, but its fine. I have actually only been called an asshole by you. Yes, the 9th grade math was a cheap shot. My apologies. It was meant more tongue in cheek, but things get lost in text without inflection. I was going to just let it all go, but since you came back to it I offer you my apology. Hopefully we can get back to meaningful and fun football discussion.

You seemed obsessed to me, digging up posts from months ago to take shots at me rather than the topic at hand and then referencing our conversation iin a completely unrelated post with another poster. I took no shots at you, I just asked questions about something you posted

I posted a statistical analysis of free agent spending and the success of NFL teams. If you want to have a meaningful discussion, I'm happy to start there. If you just want to offer your opinions and not look at the data, I will just move on.

[call_me_ishmael]

The chiefs had to cut 2 tackles to make these amazing moves. Their OL is no better this year than last, and they gave up draft capital to do it. I'm not convinced the chiefs had a good offseason.

I don't disagree on grabbing Schwartz if he can be had on a cheap one year. Not sure he can be at this point. Also, they won't do anything until after the draft because if the right OT drops into their lap Schwartz would just be a wasted signing.

Totally agree that there off-season is puzzling and they're no better off. Given the constraints and the reality they did cut the tackles, I think that is an amazing move and amazing value relative to picking at 31 and praying you get Bryan Bulaga. They essentially got Bryan Bulaga (albeit not on a rookie deal since dude wants a new contract) as a young, known commodity for not much more than the pick-and-pray at 31.

[Fritz]

You seemed obsessed to me, digging up posts from months ago to take shots at me rather than the topic at hand and then referencing our conversation iin a completely unrelated post with another poster. I took no shots at you, I just asked questions about something you posted

I posted a statistical analysis of free agent spending and the success of NFL teams. If you want to have a meaningful discussion, I'm happy to start there. If you just want to offer your opinions and not look at the data, I will just move on.

No wonder your name is "Sharpe." Bobble just apologized to you and tried to get things back on track. Weird, because you do have a nice post containing that analysis of free agent spending.

[sharpe1027]

No wonder your name is "Sharpe." Bobble just apologized to you and tried to get things back on track. Weird, because you do have a nice post containing that analysis of free agent spending.

Fair enough, but in my defense the apology came only after I was accused of being obsessed. You can maybe understand why the apology didn't feel completely genuine?

[Upnorth]

This football form is evolving to a place where we as men can talk openly and honestly about our feelings. I embrace you as hero's my brother!

[Fritz]

This football form is evolving to a place where we as men can talk openly and honestly about our feelings. I embrace you as hero's my brother!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyBcHUe4WeQ

[sharpe1027]

This football form is evolving to a place where we as men can talk openly and honestly about our feelings. I embrace you as hero's my brother!

It has gone downhill.

[Upnorth]

It has gone downhill.

Oh man. Not at all what I was saying. I love all the voices, all the disagreements, all the chaos. I miss some but it is still awesome imo.
I was trying to be a funny guy not a serious guy.
I love how a while ago some ones kids called it packers Facebook for old people.
I get more packers talk here than everywhere else combined. Of course here only like 1 in 20 are packers fans so I'm more desperate for it, but it is still awesome.

[sharpe1027]

Oh man. Not at all what I was saying. I love all the voices, all the disagreements, all the chaos. I miss some but it is still awesome imo.
I was trying to be a funny guy not a serious guy.
I love how a while ago some ones kids called it packers Facebook for old people.
I get more packers talk here than everywhere else combined. Of course here only like 1 in 20 are packers fans so I'm more desperate for it, but it is still awesome.

Sorry, I was being sarcastic.

[Upnorth]

Sorry, I was being sarcastic.

Lol that was a big whoosh on my part.

Looking forward to tomorrow. I think we will all be happy

[RashanGary]

Lol that was a big whoosh on my part.

Looking forward to tomorrow. I think we will all be happy

That's asking a lot. When have we all ever been happy :lol:

[Upnorth]

That's asking a lot. When have we all ever been happy :lol:

6 Feb 2011

[Freak Out]

I never get my hopes up. My heart was broken when they passed on Barry Sanders all those years ago.

[Bretsky]

I never get my hopes up. My heart was broken when they passed on Barry Sanders all those years ago.


MINE TOO

TRUTH be told, I wanted Derrick Thomas, then Barry, and then Mandarich

[Bretsky]

That's asking a lot. When have we all ever been happy :lol:

Happy after Day 1 of the draft ? HMMMM....you are right.

Hypothetically, if we traded out of round 1 and picked up an extra pick, we might be happy ??

[RashanGary]

Happy after Day 1 of the draft ? HMMMM....you are right.

Hypothetically, if we traded out of round 1 and picked up an extra pick, we might be happy ??

Packer twitter would melt down

[Joemailman]

Happy after Day 1 of the draft ? HMMMM....you are right.

Hypothetically, if we traded out of round 1 and picked up an extra pick, we might be happy ??

Might depend on who was available. Last time Packers traded out of Round 1 didn't they pass on some pass rusher and draft some cornerback in the 2nd round?

[Fritz]

Be funny if the Packers announced this afternoon that they'd signed a free agent cornerback or a defensive lineman. Shake up everybody's last minute mocks.

[Upnorth]

Lol that was a big whoosh on my part.

Looking forward to tomorrow. I think we will all be happy

This did not age well....

[Guiness]

This did not age well....

Mmm-hmm it did not. r/agedlikemilk worthy

[Joemailman]

Packers have restructured Dean Lowry's contract.



Field Yates
@FieldYates
The Packers restructured the contract of starting DL Dean Lowry, converting $3.11M of his $4.1M salary into a signing bonus, per source.

This creates $2.488M in cap space for Green Bay to make use of as needed for 2021.

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2021/05/26/packers-free-salary-cap-space-by-restructuring-dean-lowrys-contract/


Lowry, who is under contract through 2022, was scheduled to receive a base salary of $4.1 million in 2021. Turning a significant chunk of the base salary into a signing bonus lowers his cap hit this year but bumps the hit in 2022 and creates a bigger dead money hit if the Packers want to move on.

It appears the Packers added void years to the end of the deal to spread out the new prorated signing bonus, creating bigger savings this year.

The restructure guarantees Lowry, a 51-game starter for the Packers over the last five years, will be on the roster in 2021.

[Upnorth]

Ahh yes. The final puece of the beautiful offseason mystery. With lower its sb or bust

[Joemailman]

NFL and NFLPA have agreed on 208.2 million salary cap for 2022. Packers currently have contract obligations 0f 237.3 million, which is the highest in the NFL.

Packers top 2022 cap hits:

Rodgers: 39.8M
Z. Smith 28.1M
Bakhtiari 22.7M
Clark 20.6M
P. Smith 19.7M
Alexander 13.2M

[RashanGary]

Mason Crosby is 20th all time in points scored in the entire NFL. He’s a few away from overtaking Longwell for 19th and could finish his career close to top 5 if he keeps playing 3 more years.

[Bretsky]

Mason Crosby is 20th all time in points scored in the entire NFL. He’s a few away from overtaking Longwell for 19th and could finish his career close to top 5 if he keeps playing 3 more years.



That's a train I'd like to ride another 5 years. MONEY Crosby. As long as he has that accuracy keep him around.

It seemed like Jan Stenerud kicked til he was 45. What age did he retire ?


RODGERS AND CROSBY............FIVE MORE YEARS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Fritz]

NFL and NFLPA have agreed on 208.2 million salary cap for 2022. Packers currently have contract obligations 0f 237.3 million, which is the highest in the NFL.

Packers top 2022 cap hits:

Rodgers: 39.8M
Z. Smith 28.1M
Bakhtiari 22.7M
Clark 20.6M
P. Smith 19.7M
Alexander 13.2M

For all the Packerrats who for years bitched and moaned about the Packers not trying to win now and use all their resources, well, here you are. Gutekunst took Thompson's offensive base (Bakhtieri, Davante Adams, Aaron Jones, Aaron Rodgers, Robert Tonyan, Jamaal Williams, Corey Linsely) plus Kenny Clark, and built on it by spending like a drunken sailor (the Smith boys, primarily, plus Adrian Amos) and adding his own draft pieces (I'm not super impressed so far except for Jaire Alexander). He went all-in, and well, we have two NFC Championship games in a row. For many of those same Rats, that's not good enough.

I don't really like the financial landscape of the future. Gutes is pushing off a lot of salary cap into the future in hopes he gets a SB now, but he forgot to make his superstar QB feel included in the meantime, and it might all blow up.

[RashanGary]

For all the Packerrats who for years bitched and moaned about the Packers not trying to win now and use all their resources, well, here you are. Gutekunst took Thompson's offensive base (Bakhtieri, Davante Adams, Aaron Jones, Aaron Rodgers, Robert Tonyan, Jamaal Williams, Corey Linsely) plus Kenny Clark, and built on it by spending like a drunken sailor (the Smith boys, primarily, plus Adrian Amos) and adding his own draft pieces (I'm not super impressed so far except for Jaire Alexander). He went all-in, and well, we have two NFC Championship games in a row. For many of those same Rats, that's not good enough.

I don't really like the financial landscape of the future. Gutes is pushing off a lot of salary cap into the future in hopes he gets a SB now, but he forgot to make his superstar QB feel included in the meantime, and it might all blow up.

Yep. It might blow up. I still think 12 will come back. He’s pissed and showing them that if they’re not all in with him, why should he return the favor. At the end of the day though, he should be back and he’ll blend in just fine with the lockerroom. I just hope the broken offseason doesn’t set us back. Brady went to a new team and new offense and found a way. There is some hope that our offense can pick up where it left off.

[texaspackerbacker]

The cap was $188 million in 2019 and $198 in 2020 before dropping to $182 last season. For the 6 years up to 2020, it rose $66 million - about 11 million a season. If not for the mess last year, you can project that it would have been at least $209 in 2021 and $220 in 2022. Putting it at $231 or more for 2023 would finally get things back on track. Thus, another round of restructuring, not to mention the fact that Rodgers' contract hasn't even been restructured yet this year, should easily keep things under control.

I looked up the penalty for violating the cap: a $5 million fine for each year you are over. They also in an extreme case could take away draft picks or in an even more extreme case, void contracts. So it's not that huge a deal in the unlikely event the Packers did exceed the cap.

[Upnorth]

The 2022 cap might be the biggest reason to trade 12 on June 2nd. If love is above average we have a good team. We get a couple 1sts and a rising dl and ilb and we are set for a few years. If love is not then we need to keep 12.

[texaspackerbacker]

As I said many times, it shouldn't be either or. If Love is "above average", yeah, keep him. He will still be good in 4 or 5 years. No way, though, he will be anywhere close to Rodgers level although if he does have a "special arm" and can eventually develop a Rodgers mindset, then he could be pretty excellent by then.

[Joemailman]

Julio Jones traded to Titans. Reportedly for a 2022 2nd round pick and a 2023 4th round pick.

[RashanGary]

Titans a pretty good team. That’ll be good for AJ Brown too. Learn from a cagey vet with a similar muscular build.

[Fritz]

Another chip for Aaron Rodgers's shoulder.

I'm pretty sure at this point he's looking for reasons to be angry with the Packers.

[Joemailman]

Packers signing linebacker.

https://www.acmepackingcompany.com/2021/6/8/22524310/packers-plan-to-sign-free-agent-lb-devondre-campbell-per-report


Since entering the NFL in 2016, De’Vondre Campbell has been a solid starting linebacker. A fourth-round draft pick of the Atlanta Falcons, Campbell played in 59 of a possible 64 games over four seasons with the team, starting 54 of those, before signing a one-year deal with the Arizona Cardinals last season.

Now, Campbell appears poised to join the Green Bay Packers to provide a veteran presence on the interior of the team’s defense. Rob Demovsky of ESPN reports that the Packers are hosting Campbell for a visit and a signing is “expected” if there are no unexpected issues. According to SI’s Bill Huber, Campbell was a “player of interest” for the Packers last offseason, but the team eventually signed Christian Kirksey instead. Because of the timing of his imminent acquisition, this signing would not count against the Packers’ compensatory draft pick calculation for 2022.

After signing with the Cardinals, Campbell started all 16 games in 2020 at inside linebacker, recording 99 total tackles with two sacks, a forced fumble, and three pass breakups. That came on the heels of arguably his best season in 2019, when he picked off two passes, forced three fumbles, recorded two sacks, and totaled 129 tackles while playing in the Falcons’ 4-3 scheme under Dan Quinn.

[Fosco33]

Surprised there wasn’t a thread on Richard Sherman....

Listening to his wife’s 911 call - sure sounds like he’s in a bad spot. Some ruling in Feb barring him from weapons? Worried about losing his kids too?

Sure sounds similar to so many other athletes that went homicidal/suicidal (duerson, belcher, seau all come to mind).

[Joemailman]

Doesn't sound good. He's a free agent which could be making these things worse if it adds to depression or anger. Sounds like a guy who's really out on his own and having big problems adjusting to that.

[Joemailman]

On Friday afternoon he posted a statement to Twitter acknowledging the week's events.

"I am deeply remorseful for my actions on Tuesday night. I behaved in a manner I am not proud of," Sherman wrote. "I have been dealing with some personal challenges over the last several months, but that is not an excuse for how I acted. The importance of mental and emotional health is extremely real and I vow to get the help I need. I appreciate all of the people who have reached out in support of me and my family, including our community here in Seattle. I am grateful to have such an amazing wife, family and support system to lean on during this time."


Sherman was released without bail after a hearing Thursday. As terms of his release, Sherman was ordered not to have contact with his father-in-law, not to use alcohol or nonprescription drugs, and not to possess a weapon.

In February, King County prosecutors and the sheriff obtained an "extreme risk protection order'' for Sherman, which barred him from having guns after a judge determined he posed a danger to himself or others. Details of the case were sealed, and it was not immediately clear whether any weapons had been seized from him..

[George Cumby]

For a Twitter apology, it's not bad.

[Bretsky]

Another chip for Aaron Rodgers's shoulder.

I'm pretty sure at this point he's looking for reasons to be angry with the Packers.


AGREE

Keep listing to Adam Scheftner and AJ Hawk who spends a lot of time with AROD and is considered to be his best friend

Scheftner.....Aaron Rodgers wants nothing to do with playing for Green Bay. However, GB wants nothing to do with trading Aaron Rodgers. Obvious Impasse with Rodgers lacking leverage. Odds are he plays one more year in GB and then it's bye bye. Scheftner suggests GB could do things to basically guarantee AROD plays only one more year in GB by modifying the contract...adding a huge, but unrealistic signing bonus..etc....Evern Mark Tauscher says the solution is for AROD to agree to play in GB one more year, and then let him go free. I say HELL NO to that. We have an asset. Rodgers has no power to force us to let him go free or give up leverage. I'd rather have him sit his ass out the whole year and then trade him, than have him play in GB and then get nothing for our asset

AH HAWK VERSION---Rodgers is very competitive and wants to continue to play. GB is not open to discussing trades with other teams so odds are AROD will be coming back to GB>

DAN PATRICK- It's obvious Aaron Rodgers wants to make that front office squrm.


ESPN interpretation. Scheftner and AJ Hawk are basically saying the exact same thing. Apparent Rodgers wants out. But leverage is nothing. So he's coming back and after this year unlikely he continues to be a GB Packer.


OTHER CONSIDERATIONS: AROD is a little snarky prick and he does not react well when he doesn't get his way. The chips on his shoulder on one hand is what makes him great; but on the other hand it's what makes this so touch. He doesn't wanna be here and he wants to torture the front office he detests.. I'm slightly worried about chemistry erosion. But I think he'll show up on first day of training camp or shortly there after and say next to nothing to the media.

[Jaire]

Arod will be back whether or not a deal is worked out. Hawk is right. This is the best team since 2010 and he knows it. If TB weren't the playoff juggernaut, GB wins. GB far outperformed the Saints (no Vea) & KC and almost won. AR won't pass up the chance. No team but San Fran right now is a better spot for him.

[Upnorth]

Dennis Kelly to packers. Nice pick up for cheap

[Upnorth]

Bye bye josh Jackson hello Isaac yiadom.
He started 10 games as the #2 or #3 cb for giants last year. I read he graded higher than king.
If so good trade. He'll great trade

[Sparkey]

Bye bye josh Jackson hello Isaac yiadom.
He started 10 games as the #2 or #3 cb for giants last year. I read he graded higher than king.
If so good trade. He'll great trade

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2021/08/17/packers-trade-cornerback-isaac-yiadom-josh-jackson-what-to-know-stats-career-snaps/

– Yiadom played in all 16 games and made 10 starts for the Giants last season.

– For his career, Yiadom has allowed 95 catches on 142 targets (66.9 percent) for 1,268 yards and nine touchdowns. He has just one career interception and nine pass breakups. His passer rating against is 113.2.

– Last season, Yiadom allowed six touchdown passes and had no interceptions and five pass breakups.

– Yiadom has missed 20 career tackles and committed eight penalties.

– Yiadom played one season under Vic Fangio in Denver, potentially easing his integration into Joe Barry’s defense in Green Bay. It is notable that the Broncos traded Yiadom just one year after hiring Fangio.

– Yiadom’s career overall defensive grades by season: 54.6 in 2018, 50.9 in 2019, 56.8 in 2020.

– Yiadom’s career coverage grades by season: 55.6 in 2018, 52.3 in 2019 and 52.1 in 2020.

– Yiadom has five career special teams tackles. He also has four missed tackles on special teams, and one penalty.

– Yiadom had just one game graded over 70.0 last season.

[texaspackerbacker]

our garbage for somebody else's garbage hahahahaha

It's better than getting nothing for Jackson, but I wouldn't expect much from Yiadom.

[Upnorth]

At least he can contribute on special teams and doesn't have an injury history. It's like trading in a lada for a rickshaw.

[Fritz]

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2021/08/17/packers-trade-cornerback-isaac-yiadom-josh-jackson-what-to-know-stats-career-snaps/

– Yiadom played in all 16 games and made 10 starts for the Giants last season.

– For his career, Yiadom has allowed 95 catches on 142 targets (66.9 percent) for 1,268 yards and nine touchdowns. He has just one career interception and nine pass breakups. His passer rating against is 113.2.

– Last season, Yiadom allowed six touchdown passes and had no interceptions and five pass breakups.

– Yiadom has missed 20 career tackles and committed eight penalties.

– Yiadom played one season under Vic Fangio in Denver, potentially easing his integration into Joe Barry’s defense in Green Bay. It is notable that the Broncos traded Yiadom just one year after hiring Fangio.

– Yiadom’s career overall defensive grades by season: 54.6 in 2018, 50.9 in 2019, 56.8 in 2020.

– Yiadom’s career coverage grades by season: 55.6 in 2018, 52.3 in 2019 and 52.1 in 2020.

– Yiadom has five career special teams tackles. He also has four missed tackles on special teams, and one penalty.

– Yiadom had just one game graded over 70.0 last season.


So he's better than Josh Jackson.

[Sparkey]

So he's better than Josh Jackson.

Like choosing between a horsefly or a deerfly....

[smuggler]

Jackson has ball skills but no movement skills. That meant he was worthless on Special Teams. The new guy might actually have some manner of value there. Neither of them are good at cornerback.