Official Fire Chuck Berry Thread

[George Cumby]

Fuck that guy.

[run pMc]

Will we call his defense "Roll Over Beethoven" instead of "bend but don't break"?

[Zool]

Joe Berry is terrible. Fuck him in the goat ass. Fire him today, profit tomorrow.

[Massive J]

Yes. He's a putz and does not deserve gainful employment.
Up his.

[Upnorth]

Why would they hire one of the worst dc in history??? Like fuck me. I feel like pulling a brandon and ranting 4 times on every thread. Fn crapitty crap crap.

[Fritz]

Joe Barely Cares.

[George Cumby]

Aherm.

[RashanGary]

I think MLF is a bit of an idiot in thinking the defenders energy comes from the coach. Especially when Lafleur himself is flatter than a week old beer.

[King Friday]

I'm all for firing him now. That was one of the worst performances I've ever seen from a supposed title contender in a neutral site environment with damn near full health.

[red]

being an idiot that junps around and yells and screams the loudest might make for a good peewee coach. but you need to have more then that to coach at higher levels. this hiring looks to be horrible

[Joemailman]

I'm all for firing him now. That was one of the worst performances I've ever seen from a supposed title contender in a neutral site environment with damn near full health.

If things don't get a lot better soon, MLF does have a former DC on his defensive staff. Jerry Gray had some good years in Buffalo.

[red]

If things don't get a lot better soon, MLF does have a former DC on his defensive staff. Jerry Gray had some good years in Buffalo.

i don't know if mark murphy will allow that. he seems to want to allow guys every chance in the world to earn the money he gives them. no matter how obvious the move seems

[George Cumby]

If things don't get a lot better soon, MLF does have a former DC on his defensive staff. Jerry Gray had some good years in Buffalo.

Fucking A.

[Fritz]

Will we call his defense "Roll Over Beethoven" instead of "bend but don't break"?

The Packers were running the Ben Dover defense yesterday.

[call_me_ishmael]

It's been one week folks. I think they stunk it up with this hire but why don't we let half a season play out before we start making judgements? Most of the starters are playing their first ball in 6 months in a brand new system.

[RashanGary]

It's been one week folks. I think they stunk it up with this hire but why don't we let half a season play out before we start making judgements? Most of the starters are playing their first ball in 6 months in a brand new system.

Agree. And offense too. They learned their lesson on offense too. Run the ball. Let’s see what the future holds. But it looks bad to start.

[Fritz]

It's been one week folks. I think they stunk it up with this hire but why don't we let half a season play out before we start making judgements? Most of the starters are playing their first ball in 6 months in a brand new system.

Can't we panic for at least a few more days?

[Jaire]

Can't we panic for at least a few more days?


Way to early to panic.

I wouldn't fire everyone until at least week three & San Fran.

[RashanGary]

Chuck Berry didn’t put up 3 points in 60 minutes of football. A new defense is at least an excuse. What’s the offenses excuse?

[CaptainKickass]

The Packers were running the Ben Dover defense yesterday.

The Packers implemented and successfully ran the "Run Away Defense" this week. It's a complex scheme where anytime defenders "see the ball" they then have to execute the "Run Away" from it part of the defense.

[red]

in 3 preseason games the defense looked like a complete lost, joke. but there was the excuse that it was the backups playing against starters

then the starters finally took the field and looked just as pathetic as the backups did

. so it might not just be "one game", its 4 games where the defense looked pathetic.

yelling and screaming doesn't make a good coach, and berry has proven that a few different times now

[George Cumby]

Chuck Berry didn’t put up 3 points in 60 minutes of football. A new defense is at least an excuse. What’s the offenses excuse?

No, but his D did give up 38, so what's your point?

[Fritz]

in 3 preseason games the defense looked like a complete lost, joke. but there was the excuse that it was the backups playing against starters

then the starters finally took the field and looked just as pathetic as the backups did

. so it might not just be "one game", its 4 games where the defense looked pathetic.

yelling and screaming doesn't make a good coach, and berry has proven that a few different times now

Okay Red, when quiet Dom Capers was DC, people were screaming for someone different, someone who could light a fire under his players' asses with his own energy.

That was a pretty constant refrain. We all loved the linebackers coach, the former Steeler, because he was so animated.

Now we don't care about that.

Mind you I'm not defending Berry. I was disappointed with that hire. I wanted one of the young up-and-comers, like that Washington assistant.

[ThunderDan]

Okay Red, when quiet Dom Capers was DC, people were screaming for someone different, someone who could light a fire under his players' asses with his own energy.

That was a pretty constant refrain. We all loved the linebackers coach, the former Steeler, because he was so animated.

Now we don't care about that.

Mind you I'm not defending Berry. I was disappointed with that hire. I wanted one of the young up-and-comers, like that Washington assistant.

Fritz-

I think both ways can work, but what I have noticed is you want the up and coming guys. The innovators in the game.

When MM was first coach he had tweaked the West Coast offense into something new. Teams couldn't figure it out. As time went on teams caught up with the scheme and fat Mike never changed. He just said our players need to beat the players lined up across from them. Our O got exceedingly stale.

MLF has brought in the the RPO with multiple plays from the same formation based on reads. Right now that seems to be the dominant O in the NFL. Some Ds are starting to adjust but the DC we hired in Berry was a washout before and I don't have faith that he can figure out what is going on now.

[Jaire]

Thing about Berry is he spent years learning with MLF and that entire group. He's learned with the best -- all successful coaches.

Give him time. That was preseason and again like Amos said, the defense could have used some preseason snaps. Takes longer for defense to put it together esp with a new system.

[Spaulding]

Can we focus on the positives please?

Statistically the Saints were only 50% successful on 3rd down (5 of 10) and only 100% successful on 4th down (2 of 2). Rushing-wise the managed a paltry 4.3 yards a carry and barely owned the time of possession 34:36 to 25:24.

Definitely positives there as the Saints were forced to pass the ball a mere 21 times. And if my math adds up, the Saints only ran 60 offensive plays from scrimmage.

Thus if Berry's defense can figure out a way to force 4-5 turnovers a game and 2-3 of those can be returned to the house, we stand a good chance against sub .500 teams. Then again if we the wet paper bag doesn't have existing holes, I fear we may never get out of this dismal choice of a cheerleader for DC.

[smuggler]

Focusing only on the positives just means focusing on the results of next week's affair with the Leos, hopefully. Nothing much positive to speak of from Week 1.

[Spaulding]

Focusing only on the positives just means focusing on the results of next week's affair with the Leos, hopefully. Nothing much positive to speak of from Week 1.

Fair enough. The true positive is that it's one game and in the past now. Plenty of time to load up the beer fridge and pray for the Packers to show up Monday.

[George Cumby]

Can we focus on the positives please?

Statistically the Saints were only 50% successful on 3rd down (5 of 10) and only 100% successful on 4th down (2 of 2). Rushing-wise the managed a paltry 4.3 yards a carry and barely owned the time of possession 34:36 to 25:24.

Definitely positives there as the Saints were forced to pass the ball a mere 21 times. And if my math adds up, the Saints only ran 60 offensive plays from scrimmage.

Thus if Berry's defense can figure out a way to force 4-5 turnovers a game and 2-3 of those can be returned to the house, we stand a good chance against sub .500 teams. Then again if we the wet paper bag doesn't have existing holes, I fear we may never get out of this dismal choice of a cheerleader for DC.

Hahahahaha.

Well played.

[Sparkey]

If the defense still looks lost after 4 weeks, then we should be concerned

Fact is none of the guys played together and the scheme, no matter what it is, cones down to trusting your keys, trusting your eyes and trusting your teammates. If you hesitate in any of those areas even a 10th of second holes open up.

The one thing that makes the other three less obvious is a great pass rush.

[texaspackerbacker]

It's just possible we got beat by a fairly decent team fired up and playing good. I said before the game, Winston is feast or famine. well, he was feast last week. I'd say maybe 60-70% of the D problems comes from playing Kevin King. That doesn't let Barry off the hook, as it's undoubtedly his decision to start King and to use him in man coverage so often. Jaire was his usual self; The Safetys were fairly decent; The ILBs weren't horrible in pass coverage. Our D Line and our OLBs mostly got beat by the N.O. O Line. If those guys struggle against a much weaker Lion O Line, then we have a lingering problem, but I think they will be ok. So it boils down to how bad King fucks things up - I think not bad enough for our offense to overcome it. If Barry values his job, though, he better replace King with Stokes sooner rather than later.

I'm watching Lovie Smith's Houston D for the second week in a row. I'm still willing to give Barry a chance, but as of now, I wish we'd hired Lovie instead of Barry.

[run pMc]

It's just possible we got beat by a fairly decent team fired up and playing good. I said before the game, Winston is feast or famine. well, he was feast last week. I'd say maybe 60-70% of the D problems comes from playing Kevin King. That doesn't let Barry off the hook, as it's undoubtedly his decision to start King and to use him in man coverage so often. Jaire was his usual self; The Safetys were fairly decent; The ILBs weren't horrible in pass coverage. Our D Line and our OLBs mostly got beat by the N.O. O Line. If those guys struggle against a much weaker Lion O Line, then we have a lingering problem, but I think they will be ok. So it boils down to how bad King fucks things up - I think not bad enough for our offense to overcome it. If Barry values his job, though, he better replace King with Stokes sooner rather than later.

I'm watching Lovie Smith's Houston D for the second week in a row. I'm still willing to give Barry a chance, but as of now, I wish we'd hired Lovie instead of Barry.

I think Darnell Savage and Devondre Campbell did not have great games, and I think Kevin King will see less snaps than Stokes either via performance or injury by week 6. He's lost speed from his injuries.
Overall the communication in the secondary was not good. Winston threw 5 TD and 6 incompletions - those are Rodgers numbers - and he did that while being under 200 yards passing. That's U-G-L-Y.
NO's OL is very good...better than GB's DL.
Berry didn't really blitz much, and they didn't do a good job of containing Winston in the pocket or making him uncomfortable, which is how you get him to make bad plays.
Rashan Gary crashed inside too much and lost contain, and they took advantage of that as well.

TOP was important - GB's D was tired in the 1st half from all the running plays they couldn't stop.

MLF panicked and got away from running the ball, especially to Dillon. Shoulda rode him more if Jones was having an off day. NO played 2-shell vs. blitzing like last time, and a banged up NO secondary stepped up. Maybe Hurricane Ida inspired them. GB has to be able to run against 2 safety looks; until they are everyone will copy what NO did.

[texaspackerbacker]

I think Darnell Savage and Devondre Campbell did not have great games, and I think Kevin King will see less snaps than Stokes either via performance or injury by week 6. He's lost speed from his injuries.
Overall the communication in the secondary was not good. Winston threw 5 TD and 6 incompletions - those are Rodgers numbers - and he did that while being under 200 yards passing. That's U-G-L-Y.
NO's OL is very good...better than GB's DL.
Berry didn't really blitz much, and they didn't do a good job of containing Winston in the pocket or making him uncomfortable, which is how you get him to make bad plays.
Rashan Gary crashed inside too much and lost contain, and they took advantage of that as well.

TOP was important - GB's D was tired in the 1st half from all the running plays they couldn't stop.

MLF panicked and got away from running the ball, especially to Dillon. Shoulda rode him more if Jones was having an off day. NO played 2-shell vs. blitzing like last time, and a banged up NO secondary stepped up. Maybe Hurricane Ida inspired them. GB has to be able to run against 2 safety looks; until they are everyone will copy what NO did.

I pretty much agree with you except for this line: "MLF panicked and got away from running the ball, especially to Dillon." I'd like to hear what LaFleur would say if somebody asked him that. Keeping on running the ball when it isn't working is not the way to run and offense. You take what they are giving you early, and then if you get behind, you do what you need to do which usually is pass it.

[Fritz]

I pretty much agree with you except for this line: "MLF panicked and got away from running the ball, especially to Dillon." I'd like to hear what LaFleur would say if somebody asked him that. Keeping on running the ball when it isn't working is not the way to run and offense. You take what they are giving you early, and then if you get behind, you do what you need to do which usually is pass it.



Hmmm. So you think the Packers should abandon the run the first time it doesn't work . . . And your name is "Tex". . . Hmmm . . . I think you are in fact Mike McCarthy stalking a Packer discussion board.

We're on to you, Mike. How's things in Dallas?

[Upnorth]

I pretty much agree with you except for this line: "MLF panicked and got away from running the ball, especially to Dillon." I'd like to hear what LaFleur would say if somebody asked him that. Keeping on running the ball when it isn't working is not the way to run and offense. You take what they are giving you early, and then if you get behind, you do what you need to do which usually is pass it.

Dillion was taking what was given and then about 3 more yards per attempt. He is built for these games and they screwed up by leavong him on the bench. In a cover 2 he will get you yards.

[texaspackerbacker]

Hmmm. So you think the Packers should abandon the run the first time it doesn't work . . . And your name is "Tex". . . Hmmm . . . I think you are in fact Mike McCarthy stalking a Packer discussion board.

We're on to you, Mike. How's things in Dallas?

Seems like I answered that in some thread hahahaha. Yeah, what's that line about the definition of insanity? doing the same thing and expecting a different result? I think McCarthy is hoping it works the other way too - if he does the same in Dallas as he did in Green Bay, they'll win most of the time there too.

[texaspackerbacker]

Dillion was taking what was given and then about 3 more yards per attempt. He is built for these games and they screwed up by leavong him on the bench. In a cover 2 he will get you yards.

I don't recall the score when he had that success running, but I don't think it was in our favor. Near the end of the half, and we had the ball what? once? three plays? BTW, run 3 times for 3 yards each, and you get to 4th and 1 - and I doubt you see cover 2 then.

I remember Woody Hays. Some of ya'all woulda love him.

[George Cumby]

In their opening drive, the Lions gutted the Packers D.

Fire Chuck Berry now.

[Bretsky]

He's horrible

[smuggler]

Yikes. I definitely felt firing Pettine was too knee-jerk... Hopefully things get better soon.

[Bretsky]

You aren't going to land about the best Defensive Coordinator in College football by offering him the same salary he makes in college

And if this is what we are stuck with you should have doubled the offer

[George Cumby]

This defense couldn't find its' ass with both hands.

[th87]

Yikes. I definitely felt firing Pettine was too knee-jerk... Hopefully things get better soon.

Pettine sucked balls. It's just that the Packers managed to hire someone worse.

[SudsMcBucky]

Pettine sucked balls. It's just that the Packers managed to hire someone worse.

And this is where the Packers really fucked up. I had no problem with them moving on from Pettine, but if you're going to do that, you better damn well have a plan in place BEFORE doing it to UPGRADE.

[Joemailman]

I wasn't thrilled with the choice of Barry. But we don't know yet whether it was a bad hire, or whether this is a defense going through some growing pains with a new coordinator. The stats are ugly though. 30th in hurries. 32nd in sacks. 25th in rushing YPC. 29th in rushing yards given up. 27th in passer rating allowed.

[call_me_ishmael]

Pettine wasn't "fired". He didn't have a contract and we don't know if the Packers offered to retain him and he declined, or the Packers did not make an offer. Frankly, I thought Pettine was a pretty good coordinator. They did make it to NFCC two straight years after all.

I am shocked we couldn't have done better than this recycled guy. He is BFFs with Rob Salad - why didn't he hit up his staff or ask who Salad wanted?

Overall this was a fuck up of epic proportions in my opinion. If I was looking for an up-and-comer, maybe I would have put in a phone call to see if Dave Aranda was interested after he kind of stunk it up at Baylor.

[smuggler]

Pettine's defense was flawed, but they kept us in the NFCC game last year in the 2nd half.

[Fritz]

Maybe the defense is still getting its bearings, but there is no energy on that unit, at all, and zero pass rush. Zero. And I don't think that's just because Z Smith is missing.

The defensive line looks miserable. One of the few times I agree with Tex on anything: Lowry stinks.

And if Barry's not ever going to try to do something to get some pressure, it could be like 2011 all over again.

[run pMc]

What I've seen from Berry's scheme:

- prefers nickel to dime D, using CB's vs. 3 safety looks
- is closer to a 3-4
- rarely pressures with blitzes
- plays a decent percentage of zone

They don't have the horses up front on the DL; aside from Clark, who gets doubled all the time there isn't another DL who is a threat. A lot of JAGs there, and as a result no pass rush. I'd consider putting Lancaster at NT or else replace him with Heflin to see if that gives them any juice.
Z might be a little miscast, because I'm not sure Berry will kick him inside to pass rush against a G like Pettine used to have him do on obvious passing downs.
Preston's played well, Gary gives up contain too much but is also playing decent.
The ILBs are not great, and they still need to improve talent there.
No idea what they are doing with the CBs, I think they are still tinkering there. Best I can tell, the FO drafts guys like King and Stokes who can play press/man well and hope they can teach them to play zone (which Berry and Pettine both do quite a bit).
I think King's injuries have robbed him of speed and he really hasn't improved much since being drafted.

All that said, I am not a fan of Berry at this point, and have a bad feeling Fritz is right and this is 2011...where the offense basically has to score every possession to win a shootout.

[Fritz]

What I've seen from Berry's scheme:

- prefers nickel to dime D, using CB's vs. 3 safety looks
- is closer to a 3-4
- rarely pressures with blitzes
- plays a decent percentage of zone

They don't have the horses up front on the DL; aside from Clark, who gets doubled all the time there isn't another DL who is a threat. A lot of JAGs there, and as a result no pass rush. I'd consider putting Lancaster at NT or else replace him with Heflin to see if that gives them any juice.
Z might be a little miscast, because I'm not sure Berry will kick him inside to pass rush against a G like Pettine used to have him do on obvious passing downs.
Preston's played well, Gary gives up contain too much but is also playing decent.
The ILBs are not great, and they still need to improve talent there.
No idea what they are doing with the CBs, I think they are still tinkering there. Best I can tell, the FO drafts guys like King and Stokes who can play press/man well and hope they can teach them to play zone (which Berry and Pettine both do quite a bit).
I think King's injuries have robbed him of speed and he really hasn't improved much since being drafted.

All that said, I am not a fan of Berry at this point, and have a bad feeling Fritz is right and this is 2011...where the offense basically has to score every possession to win a shootout.


Nothing bothers me more as a Packer fan than watching an opposing quarterback have all day to throw the ball. I well remember that '85 Bears defense and Buddy Ryan's 46 defense, and in all my years of watching football - since about 1967 - that was one of the best I've ever seen (along with the Steel Curtain defenses of the 70's, and the Giants' defenses of the 80's with Lawrence Taylor). Those defenses shut down the run, for sure, but they also had ferocious pass rushes. Just ferocious.

Although I recognize the risks of blitzing, I think coaches generally are too conservative, and this is true when it comes to blitzing. One concern I have is that Joe Barry seems extremely conservative so far, and that is no way to play defense, espcecially when you can't generate a pass rush. In that sense he reminds me of Dom Capers, who seemed to get more conservative along the way.

So my hope is that the players will get used to the system and Barry will adjust to his shitty defensive line corps by playing the younger D-linemen and blitzing more.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Nothing bothers me more as a Packer fan than watching an opposing quarterback have all day to throw the ball. I well remember that '85 Bears defense and Buddy Ryan's 46 defense, and in all my years of watching football - since about 1967 - that was one of the best I've ever seen (along with the Steel Curtain defenses of the 70's, and the Giants' defenses of the 80's with Lawrence Taylor). Those defenses shut down the run, for sure, but they also had ferocious pass rushes. Just ferocious.

Although I recognize the risks of blitzing, I think coaches generally are too conservative, and this is true when it comes to blitzing. One concern I have is that Joe Barry seems extremely conservative so far, and that is no way to play defense, espcecially when you can't generate a pass rush. In that sense he reminds me of Dom Capers, who seemed to get more conservative along the way.

So my hope is that the players will get used to the system and Barry will adjust to his shitty defensive line corps by playing the younger D-linemen and blitzing more.

The Capers era is actually better than you remember if you go back and look at it.

Capers ran the Psycho where Shields blitzed from the shutdown corner position. Wood shined and blitzed all the time from then star spot. Claymaker acted all black and cocky and got away with black cultural appropriation cos his game - under Capers - spoke louder. And the Pack D was pretty good the year they won Super Bowl 45.

Yeah, yeah, Kap owned the Pack and Capers couldn’t do shit about Kap. But it’s cool. Kap’s Kung Fu was awesome.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

All Barry does is sit in Cover 2 all day - be it Cover 2 Man or the Tampa 2.

No disrespect to Lovie Smith, the father of the Tampa 2, but Brooks Fucking Bolllinger dismantled that D eons ago. Brooks Bollinger!

[texaspackerbacker]

I pretty much agree with most of that, runPmc.

I don't remember King ever being very good, and now he's garbage.

I'm disappointed with our ILB play given the fact that Barry was supposed to be a specialist in that area. I see them making a lot of tackles, but only after passes are caught or RBs get 7 or 8 yards or more gained.

I really wish they'd play Slaton. He might be that second force after Clark.

I don't know what to think about Z. Smith. Sometimes I think he's overrated, but you're right, the pass rush was terrible without him.

They need to replace Lancaster with anybody - and Heflin is anybody. Whether he is significantly better is hard to say, but he couldn't really be worse.

I think you're right Barry doesn't go with 3 Safetys much. That's bad IMO, because the Packers have talent going to waste there - Henry Black. I wonder if that will change when V. Scott is back. It could also explain the cutting and not PSing of Uphoff. He hasn't used his Corners very well either, though. Jean-Charles couldn't be worse than King in the slot, and it seemed like he outplayed Sullivan in the preseason too - and he sits. The new guy, Yiadem or whatever, also couldn't possibly be worse than King.

IMO, the best thing about Pettine was his propensity to blitz. And yeah, Barry has gotten away from that. I'd say that is the biggest single factor in the rottenness of our D so far with Barry. He did blitz some in the second half, and it was a little bit better, but more is needed.

I don't remember Pettine playing much zone. That was one thing I thought would be better with Barry, but I still see our Corners playing Man a lot. Maybe that isn't so bad if Stokes replaces King. Either way, though, they need to tighten up against that ball control/short passing game that so many teams use nowadays and that the Packers seem so bad against.

[texaspackerbacker]

Nothing bothers me more as a Packer fan than watching an opposing quarterback have all day to throw the ball. I well remember that '85 Bears defense and Buddy Ryan's 46 defense, and in all my years of watching football - since about 1967 - that was one of the best I've ever seen (along with the Steel Curtain defenses of the 70's, and the Giants' defenses of the 80's with Lawrence Taylor). Those defenses shut down the run, for sure, but they also had ferocious pass rushes. Just ferocious.

Although I recognize the risks of blitzing, I think coaches generally are too conservative, and this is true when it comes to blitzing. One concern I have is that Joe Barry seems extremely conservative so far, and that is no way to play defense, espcecially when you can't generate a pass rush. In that sense he reminds me of Dom Capers, who seemed to get more conservative along the way.

So my hope is that the players will get used to the system and Barry will adjust to his shitty defensive line corps by playing the younger D-linemen and blitzing more.

+1 to this too. I see so many teams play MUCH better D than the Packers with seemingly nowhere near as good personnel.

I guess this is my day to be agreeable. I also agree with APB that Capers wasn't as bad as some people thought. If I'm recalling correctly, Capers blitzed a lot, which I liked.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Tex, King sucks but he sucks less than Sullivan. Sullivan’s a poor man’s Mr. Hyde, and Hyde was an abomination at the “star.” King over Sullivan on any given Sunday.

[smuggler]

Against the Leos, we definitely seemed to be too soft on the underneath stuff, forcing them into long drives, but that actually worked because if you give Goff enough chances, eventually he is going to make a mistake. Against other QBs, that will not work.

[texaspackerbacker]

Tex, King sucks but he sucks less than Sullivan. Sullivan’s a poor man’s Mr. Hyde, and Hyde was an abomination at the “star.” King over Sullivan on any given Sunday.

I don't like Sullivan much either, but I really think King is worse - and of course, King being drafted so high and Sullivan a UFA just amplifies it. I wish they'd use Jean-Charles in the slot or maybe Savage in the slot and Black at deep Safety or even Black in the slot.

smuggler, I'd rather have the other team hit big plays occasionally than the damn ball control that keeps our offense off the field. I remember some Detroit games where Stafford would hit several TD bombs, but we'd beat them easily anyway. That shouldn't be a choice we have to make, though. A good DC should be able to stop both.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

I don't like Sullivan much either, but I really think King is worse - and of course, King being drafted so high and Sullivan a UFA just amplifies it. I wish they'd use Jean-Charles in the slot or maybe Savage in the slot and Black at deep Safety or even Black in the slot.

Black received snaps on defense in week 1 and 2. I think he fucked up a few plays against NO. Didn’t do anything spectacular against Det. Seems like a JAG.

[Bretsky]

Meanwhile, in Madtown Leonard's units continue to excel, but we have no offense

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Meanwhile, in Madtown Leonard's units continue to excel, but we have no offense

Leonhard’s D allowed 30-something points against that Catholic cow college named after Jesus’ Mother. The D has never been able to stop the Ohio State.

What makes you think Leonhard and his Rex Ryan-inspired D woulda excelled in the Green and Musta Yella?

Frog shoulda hired Al Harris.

[Bretsky]

Leonhard’s D allowed 30-something points against that Catholic cow college named after Jesus’ Mother. The D has never been able to stop the Ohio State.

What makes you think Leonhard and his Rex Ryan-inspired D woulda excelled in the Green and Musta Yella?

Frog shoulda hired Al Harris.



did you even Watch the F'ckin Game ?

Here's a Hint: GO READ THE BOXSCORE, and then insert your foot back down your throat

[Anti-Polar Bear]

did you even Watch the F'ckin Game ?

Here's a Hint: GO READ THE BOXSCORE, and then insert your foot back down your throat

Watched a few minutes of the 4th quarter. What I saw was, some 3rd string QB came in and annihilated Wisconsin’s D.

Leonhard’s D is decent at feasting on cupcakes like Southern Kentucky Confederate State A&M. Against the semi-pro teams (OSU, ND, etc.), the D sucks like I suck at poker, and I idiotically lost almost 6k at poker this year.

[George Cumby]

, the D sucks like I suck at poker, and I idiotically lost almost 6k at poker this year.

Better start flipping more burgers.

[Sparkey]

The defense is improving. You can tell as the players get more comfortable they are moving faster and the pass rush is more active.

[texaspackerbacker]

I didn't see that much improvement. To some extent, a lot of players got inspired and played good early on. But the key was that the Niners had most of their RBs injured. They still got away with short passing us to death at times, and in the second half, even their 4th stringer, Sermon, and their fullback, the guy with the funny name, ran enough to do us some harm.

Barry still refused to blitz most of the game, then the one time he shouldn't have, on the goal line with the back of the endzone to help out, he did blitz and got beat. Then for the one series, he got smart and blitzed in the middle of the field - with pretty good results. Then with the game on the line, he went back to doing things his normal way and nearly lost it.

[Upnorth]

So we are tied for first in the league with fewest missed tackles. Is that allowed by a packers d??? I thought the deal we made forbid it in exchange for never endong hof qbs

[Joemailman]

I didn't see that much improvement. To some extent, a lot of players got inspired and played good early on. But the key was that the Niners had most of their RBs injured. They still got away with short passing us to death at times, and in the second half, even their 4th stringer, Sermon, and their fullback, the guy with the funny name, ran enough to do us some harm.

Barry still refused to blitz most of the game, then the one time he shouldn't have, on the goal line with the back of the endzone to help out, he did blitz and got beat. Then for the one series, he got smart and blitzed in the middle of the field - with pretty good results. Then with the game on the line, he went back to doing things his normal way and nearly lost it.

Packers had 21 players blitz against the 49ers. Less than against the Lions (28),but more than against he Saints (12).

[texaspackerbacker]

Did 21 D players even get in the game? and 28 against Detroit? I'm just messing with you - I think I know what you mean even if it isn't what you said. We blitzed enough times that when you consider multiple players coming in, it added up to 21 and 28, right?

That's fine and dandy if you consider our OLBs rushing the passer to be blitzing. For the Packers, though, Gary, the Smiths, Garvin, Rivers rushing the QB is pretty much just our basic D. Adding that to 3, usually less D Linemen, and it's hardly bringing the house. When Barry did briefly blitz in other ways in the second half, it worked out pretty well (except for that one time on the goal line where he basically shoulda known better than to blitz).

I'm still not totally against Barry like some people are. I'm still withholding final judgment because we won the two games, but he ain't looking good so far.

[Sparkey]

Did 21 D players even get in the game? and 28 against Detroit? I'm just messing with you - I think I know what you mean even if it isn't what you said. We blitzed enough times that when you consider multiple players coming in, it added up to 21 and 28, right?

That's fine and dandy if you consider our OLBs rushing the passer to be blitzing. For the Packers, though, Gary, the Smiths, Garvin, Rivers rushing the QB is pretty much just our basic D. Adding that to 3, usually less D Linemen, and it's hardly bringing the house. When Barry did briefly blitz in other ways in the second half, it worked out pretty well (except for that one time on the goal line where he basically shoulda known better than to blitz).

I'm still not totally against Barry like some people are. I'm still withholding final judgment because we won the two games, but he ain't looking good so far.

So your saying you want them to blitz more, but only when it works?

If only it was that easy. :roll:

[NewsBruin]

Overall this was a fuck up of epic proportions in my opinion. If I was looking for an up-and-comer, maybe I would have put in a phone call to see if Dave Aranda was interested after he kind of stunk it up at Baylor.

Dammit, stop going after our coaches!

[Joemailman]

If Barry wants to be successful, they need to figure things out in the red zone. Packers are 9th in the NFL in yards given up, but 24th in points given up. Reason is opponents are 10-10 scoring touchdowns in the redzone. They also need to do a better job on 3rd down, but more than anything else, they need to start forcing teams to settle for field goals.

[run pMc]

If Barry wants to be successful, they need to figure things out in the red zone. Packers are 9th in the NFL in yards given up, but 24th in points given up. Reason is opponents are 10-10 scoring touchdowns in the redzone. They also need to do a better job on 3rd down, but more than anything else, they need to start forcing teams to settle for field goals.

Agree. RZ defense has not been good.
Being in top 10 for yards allowed doesn't impress me much; I'm more interested in Scoring Defense and Opposing QB Rating for high level stats.

[texaspackerbacker]

So your saying you want them to blitz more, but only when it works?

If only it was that easy. :roll:

What I said is that blitzing most places on the field is a good thing and a necessary thing for a team like the Packers that doesn't generate enough pass pressure without blitzing. However, when you are backed up to your own endzone, that is exactly the time not to blitz - the end line crams everything in together, so playing max coverage is the thing to do. Barry blitzed there - basically the first time in the game - and it resulted in a Niner TD.

[call_me_ishmael]

If Barry wants to be successful, they need to figure things out in the red zone. Packers are 9th in the NFL in yards given up, but 24th in points given up. Reason is opponents are 10-10 scoring touchdowns in the redzone. They also need to do a better job on 3rd down, but more than anything else, they need to start forcing teams to settle for field goals.

Weren't they really good in the red zone last year? Or maybe that was the offense?

[Joemailman]

Weren't they really good in the red zone last year? Or maybe that was the offense?

They were #1 on offense, #8 on defense.

[Joemailman]

What say you Rats?

[King Friday]

Clearly I should have stuck to my guns after game #1.

Willing to see if he can turn it around this year, but there is too much talent on the roster for the defense to look this bad. He is toast is this is a middling defense at year end.

[Freak Out]

I'm not sure WTF Berry was thinking but his strategy the second half sucked balls. Of course the offense did as well especially the MVP but that's another thread. The D is loaded with talented round one picks but still found a way to blow it.

[Bretsky]

What say you Rats?


BARRY SUCKS BALLS; that's the best thing I have to say; he was a terrible hire. He's sucked everywhere else and he sucks now. ML hired a friend

Last week ML let it slip with the media that he had to meet with BarryBallSucker about the defensive philosophy.

WANT KEY NOTES ?

Through the first 4 games, GB was dead last, NUMBER 32 in Blitzes. I'd bet we're in the same spot after game 5. We rush 4 only more than any team in the NFL.
Even when we showed blitz, the Giants didn't take it seriously and we dropped our "fake" blitzers back into the dam zone. Did I mention...BARRY SUCKS ?

We were no better last year than with Pettine. We returned two key pieces from last year, and added a off the charts athletic ILB

But if by chance, Preston Smith or Gary do not penetrate for a sack, our pass rush is bare minimal and we fall back into the dam zone and with no pass rush we eventaully get picked apart. The DAM Giants....without their top 3 or 4 WR's. Danny Jones with a higher QB rating that Sharon. Did I mention, BARRY SUCKS

We're so dam predictable on defense, a good coach can outscheme us anyday.

The solution was right up the road from us, but we were a bunch of tight asses and lowballed a DC offer ...to the solution...JIMMY JIMMY JIMMY JIMMY

I don't know if he would have switched had to really tried to close the deal with him, but it wasn't going to happen without a significant raise.


Oh, and BARRY SUCKS. Jerry Gray's not the long term solution either....but I'll take him over Barry

[Joemailman]

Last year in week 2 the Packers trailed the Lions 17-14 at halftime. At that point MLF told Barry that if you're rushing 4 and not getting pressure, you can't just keep rushing 4. You either need to bring more pressure, or rush 3 and play coverage. Barry brought more pressure, and Packers shut out Lions in 2nd half. The problems may be different this year, but if Barry is going to continue to be slow to make adjustments, MLF may have to impose his will on the defense.

[call_me_ishmael]

Maybe put in a call to Bretsky's Baylor Boy.

[texaspackerbacker]

I doubt he goes from a college head coaching job to a pro DC job.

The logic is the same for firing Barry now as it was for Chryst. The team very well could go on and have an excellent season in spite of Barry's D - maybe that's what happened last year, and if they finish good, it would be a much harder thing to fire him then. There are just too many teams in the league with DCs who have better performance with players nowhere near as good as ours.

[Fritz]

If MLF has to keep kicking Joe Barely to get him to bring pressure, then maybe Joe's not the right guy for the job.

Highly unusual to fire a DC in the midst of the season, but if Joe doesn't loosen up and get a little more aggressive in his calls, then maybe MLF will give him an ultimatum.

I hope TJ SLaton gets more snaps, too. He looked best he has all season last week. If he can take some snaps at the nose and be effective, they can move Clark around a little and free him up a bit.

And let's hope Wyatt picks up the game a little bit and can start to play some snaps, too.

But I don't think anyone's impressed with Joe Barely. Guy has an awful lot of talent to play around with, and he's not doing squat.

[call_me_ishmael]

I guess I would say that at some point it's on the players unless the wrong plays are being called. They brought in Barry to play the Rams system. Isn't he doing just that? What do the Rams do differently?

It kinda seems like every time you get a new coordinator some year they have success for a year then sort of stink after. Seems like the message/act runs hollow. Meh.

[Fritz]

Maybe you just make it team policy to fire the DC after every season.

Ish, I do think lots of folks think the wrong plays are being called. Slow to adjust to the NE game plan of running the ball, and a very passive defense against the Gints that allowed a non-passing team to come from a two-touchdown deficit.

[Bretsky]

If MLF has to keep kicking Joe Barely to get him to bring pressure, then maybe Joe's not the right guy for the job.

Highly unusual to fire a DC in the midst of the season, but if Joe doesn't loosen up and get a little more aggressive in his calls, then maybe MLF will give him an ultimatum.

I hope TJ SLaton gets more snaps, too. He looked best he has all season last week. If he can take some snaps at the nose and be effective, they can move Clark around a little and free him up a bit.

And let's hope Wyatt picks up the game a little bit and can start to play some snaps, too.

But I don't think anyone's impressed with Joe Barely. Guy has an awful lot of talent to play around with, and he's not doing squat.



You can pay me a LOT LESS to call an occasional fake blitz where they all drop back into a zone..... and base zone coverage the whole game :)

[Bretsky]

I guess I would say that at some point it's on the players unless the wrong plays are being called. They brought in Barry to play the Rams system. Isn't he doing just that? What do the Rams do differently?

It kinda seems like every time you get a new coordinator some year they have success for a year then sort of stink after. Seems like the message/act runs hollow. Meh.



The Rams blitz more than GB does and they do play some man.

The Baylor HC, if let go....I'd take him in GB in a second

If Jimmy Jimmy Jimmy doesn't get named the WI HC...perhaps leopold instead (I doubt it though), sign him up yesterday. Jimmy loves Man D Coverage; Jaire would love Jimmy

[run pMc]

You can pay me a LOT LESS to call an occasional fake blitz where they all drop back into a zone..... and base zone coverage the whole game :)

Not only that, but get the LBs to drop into zone correctly, have the CB's hand off crosser routes correctly, and not line everyone up 8 yards off the line. You're giving up too much ground there over fears of rub routes. Teams don't need to call rub routes; they can just call crossers until Barry and Co. fix it.
Daboll called a ton of them and dared GB to stop them, and instead they let Jones go 13-for-14 in the second half. Daniel Jones is not a better QB than Aaron Rodgers, but he clearly played like he was in the second half.

It's both coaching and execution.

I realize there's not a lot of time to make halftime or in-game adjustments, but the better coaches seem to be able to. I haven't seen that from Barry this year. It actually feels like he's just calling the same things over and over and expecting them to stop failing eventually.

[Bretsky]

HOLY CRAP CHECK THIS OUT

TJ Slaton on #Packers defense: "I think we were a little too dialed in at times with the plan and what we practiced. We knew what we were going to see, and I think we were just getting a little lost. We were getting a little lost when we didn’t see what we were practicing

TJ Slaton said the biggest surprise today was how often Giants called bootlegs with Daniel Jones. It's something #Packers knew was part of the Giants offense, but they just didn't stop. Once Brian Daboll saw Packers couldn't defend it, he kept calling it. Packers never adjusted.

[Freak Out]

It was nuts to see especially after they ran it against the Bears many times. Debacle. Still think Arod deserves most the blame for the loss.

[Fritz]

It's a little spooky when the back-up second-year nose tackle starts speaking out about what's wrong.

And his quote doesn't really make sense. Maybe you had to hear him say it to get the context, I don't know.

[texaspackerbacker]

It seems like he nailed it, and Bretsky summarized it right too. Barry was incapable of adjusting. As for the bootlegs, thinking the QB's ankle wouldn't allow it was reasonable, but he should have been able to stop it real quick - with all the talent our D has - once if became obvious that the QB could move around.

I'm a little surprised too that a guy who is pretty much a scrub D Lineman would talk like that. In the Lombardi era, he'd have been on the next bus out of town.

[red]

who'd have known that a guy who has been terrible at his job his entire career would still suck?

this clown was a horrible hire, and the longer we keep him, the worse it looks for the kid coach

[red]

It seems like he nailed it, and Bretsky summarized it right too. Barry was incapable of adjusting. As for the bootlegs, thinking the QB's ankle wouldn't allow it was reasonable, but he should have been able to stop it real quick - with all the talent our D has - once if became obvious that the QB could move around.

I'm a little surprised too that a guy who is pretty much a scrub D Lineman would talk like that. In the Lombardi era, he'd have been on the next bus out of town.

if one is talking about it to the media, many are probably talking about it behind the scenes

its not good if the players realize the DC is a joke

[Joemailman]

who'd have known that a guy who has been terrible at his job his entire career would still suck?

this clown was a horrible hire, and the longer we keep him, the worse it looks for the kid coach

Ejiro Evero, who was on the same Rams staff as Barry in 2020 was the guy I wanted. I think he interviewed for the job. Evero is now the DC in Denver.

[call_me_ishmael]

Ejiro Evero, who was on the same Rams staff as Barry in 2020 was the guy I wanted. I think he interviewed for the job. Evero is now the DC in Denver.

It was surprising to me at the time that they didn't go with the young guy. Seemed like a better fit with the young coaching staff we had. It made me think that milf had very little faith in him to choose an old guy with a horrible track record over him.

[Freak Out]

Pull the fucking trigger.

[red]

the second half was brutal

get rid of the guy, and if flower won't do it, get rid of him

its bad enough that he hired him in the first place

[texaspackerbacker]

+ 1 on that

[Freak Out]

Start with Gute.

[Freak Out]

BURN IT DOWN!

[Fritz]

Another shit show.

[Bretsky]

Matty's not firing his buddy during the regular season

[call_me_ishmael]

Matty's not firing his buddy during the regular season

Never say never. Right now the D isn’t nearly as big of a problem as the O.

[texaspackerbacker]

Not True. It's maybe 80% a problem with the D.

[ThunderDan]

Offense is averaging 17.8 ppg - 24th in the league 348.2 yards pg 15th in the league
Defense is allowing 20.5 ppg - 15th in the league 299.2 yards pg 5th in the league

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Offense is averaging 17.8 ppg - 24th in the league 348.2 yards pg 15th in the league
Defense is allowing 20.5 ppg - 15th in the league 299.2 yards pg 5th in the league

Defense PPG is inflated a tad due to a Butte pick-6 and a blocked punt-6. Last I checked, Packers were #1 against the pass.

The defense ain’t ‘96 great, but if the Packer offense could get the lead, and accumulate it, opposing offenses would be forced to abandon the run and play into the defense’s strength, which is the pass.

I agree with Partial: O sucks more than D. But I also agree with Tex: fire Barry!

[RashanGary]

O is worse than the D. I agree.

[run pMc]

OL is a problem and Stenovich should get more involved. He worked wonders with less in previous years. Maybe Luke Butkus is actually a sleeper cell agent for the Bears?

D looks better statistically that it is. They've played Justin Fields, Bailey Zappe, and Zach Wilson, and I don't think any of them cracked 150 yards passing. That will make your pass defense look good. Why throw when you can run the ball and keep Rodgers off the field?

Rewatched parts of the Jets game; Rodgers was hurried a lot but he was missing open guys. Also did not like some of the play calls. Bad game by coaches and players. They did play more man coverage which was something. I still don't care for Joe Barry's D and think they should go in a different direction next year.

[texaspackerbacker]

I'm not letting the offense off the hook. But there are clear deficiencies there - injuries and inexperience at WR as well as mediocrity and possible coaching problems with the O Line. The D on the other hand, seemed to be a loaded bunch talent-wise, and Barry is managing to screw things up anyway. That side is definitely the primary problem.

[Bretsky]

Offense has HUGE issues too, and AROD is part of the problem

His demeanor on the field sucks; I think he sucks as a teammate. His interviews suck. He's a douchebag. I cheered for him as a football player whose great playing skills allowed me to overcome all of his personal deficiences as a teammate and human being. He's not playing at that level this year. It's not just him, obviously...or OL stinks.

But he's not ELEVATING ANYBODY this year.

And he can stick his snarky ass post game comments and his weekly interviews with his TOOL right up you know where.

Listen to Matty's interview as well. He's not on the same page with Rodgers. I'm not sure Matty can control AROD and/or BuddyBarry.

[Joemailman]

Offense has HUGE issues too, and AROD is part of the problem

His demeanor on the field sucks; I think he sucks as a teammate. His interviews suck. He's a douchebag. I cheered for him as a football player whose great playing skills allowed me to overcome all of his personal deficiences as a teammate and human being. He's not playing at that level this year. It's not just him, obviously...or OL stinks.

But he's not ELEVATING ANYBODY this year.

And he can stick his snarky ass post game comments and his weekly interviews with his TOOL right up you know where.

Listen to Matty's interview as well. He's not on the same page with Rodgers. I'm not sure Matty can control AROD and/or BuddyBarry.

There's always been a natural conflict between MLF's offense and what Rodgers wants to do. MLF wants a lot of motion and misdirection to scheme guys to get open. Rodgers wants to walk up to the line, scan the defense, and figure out his best matchup, audibling if necessary. They were able to find a middle ground that worked really well the last 2 years. We'll see if they can again find a middle ground that works. Of course, if they don't fix the offensive line, nothing will work. I still think they can make this work if they can get healthy at receiver. Lazard, Watkins, Cobb, Watson and Doubs isn't bad. Just Lazard and Doubs is pretty anemic.

[Upnorth]

We get an online, Rodgers settles down, running game finds a groove. O gets fixed.
Longer drives, d gets rest. D gets even better.
Our oline is killing us

[Fritz]

I have been surprised by two parts of this team: the defense overall and the offensive line. Even with Bakh back and Jenkins back, they're a sieve. Rodgers has lost so much mobility - even within the picket - that he has to be given time and space. And the run blocking is almost as miserable. I hope that MLF makes a move soon; I hear that it may still be that Jenkins and Bakh are getting there legs under them, but I dunno. Maybe. I'd like to see a shake-up, though. Either put Tom out at RT and move Jenkins to guard on the left side, and then move Runyan to the right and get rid of "I got rolled" Royce on that starting line. Or put Nijman at right tackle. Or something. I also see from time to time Myers getting pushed backward. I don't know the offensive line play very well - I am no expert - but I am not convinced Myers is as good as Tretter or Linsley.

And don't get me started on this defense. Or Joe Barely.

[Fritz]

Here's an article that shows some reasons for the Packers' poor run defense - Joe Barely gets criticized here for not playing the best scheme for the situations his defense is in, and Campbell gets some criticism for being out of position and for some seemingly poor efforts.
https://www.acmepackingcompany.com/2022/10/20/23413170/green-bay-packers-film-room-defense-new-york-jets-week-6-2022

[run pMc]

Campbell's tackling has not been good this year, and he's not reading things as well for some reason.
All that aside, I don't like Barry. I think he's basically a copy of a copy of a DC, and an unimaginative one at that. I think he tries to make the players fit to his scheme, vs. the other way around. That's a recipe for not getting the most out of your talent, and given all the first rounders they have on the defense you know they have talent. Stokes and Jaire are very good man corners and he has them playing zone from 8 yards off. They put Rasul in the slot when that's not where he's best. Reed or Slaton should be in there for Lowry on early downs.

Also, Darnell Savage has not developed much since his rookie year.

[Fritz]

Agreed.Way back when in the 80's I coached high school freshmen basketball. I worked under a guy who was a legend in Maryland - we won a State Title in '86 - and he always said, find out what your guys do best, and design your scheme around that.

[texaspackerbacker]

True. I always said LaFleur did just that, subordinated his own ego and did what worked best with the material he has. Well, Barry is doing the opposite - it seems. He's forcing zone D when he has outstanding man cover DBs. He's using Campbell and Q. Walker to cover the short zones, which they aren't doing very well, and that getting them out of position from doing what ILBs do best, read and react.

[call_me_ishmael]

Played man on two biggest plays of the game and Jaire got beat 2x

[RashanGary]

Jaire is better off.

[red]

Played man on two biggest plays of the game and Jaire got beat 2x

its like the whole god damn team has taken a giant step backwards this year

[Joemailman]

its like the whole god damn team has taken a giant step backwards this year

Well at least they're sticking together.

[texaspackerbacker]

Early in the game, Barry played more man coverage, and things were better. They stopped the run and pass both. As Washington adjusted and the young QB got better, though, Barry failed miserably to adjust to their adjustment - the same as in virtually every game this season. It ain't lack of talent that causes the inability to stop the run; It ain't lack of talent that causes inability to play quality zone pass D - if they're gonna insist on playing zone.

People have mentioned Gray as an alternative to Barry. I wouldn't give him a pass either, as even with our thoroughbred DBs, the Packer do a shittier job of playing zone than just about any team.

[Jaire]

I think Barry lost the locker room. this is just a pretty high caliber room and they are sticking to it. Reminds me too much of McCarthy's last year.

Change is needed.

[Bretsky]

interesting fyi. Packer reporter Tom pelissari reported some defensive players unhappy with the scheme and let our HC know. When asked about whether it occurred Marty commented that you can never make everybody happy. Not a good sign

[Anti-Polar Bear]

I think Barry lost the locker room. this is just a pretty high caliber room and they are sticking to it. Reminds me too much of McCarthy's last year.

Change is needed.

Looks like Jim Leonhard will be available.

[Jaire]

Looks like Jim Leonhard will be available.

really?

Why do you think?

[Bretsky]

Looks like Jim Leonhard will be available.

Why do you say that ? Badgers are playing with intensity, a welcome change.

I know some kind of connected who are sold that the College Football Bo Ryan is coming, but I am not buying it. I think it's Leonard.

If he lands some of the top tier WI recruits, such as Nate White and the Middleton LB I think his case would be even stronger

[th87]

Barry has failed everywhere he's been.

Who could've seen this coming?

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Why do you say that ? Badgers are playing with intensity, a welcome change.

I know some kind of connected who are sold that the College Football Bo Ryan is coming, but I am not buying it. I think it's Leonard.

If he lands some of the top tier WI recruits, such as Nate White and the Middleton LB I think his case would be even stronger

Guess what, the Lions play with a tons of intensity under Campbell, too. Not that I give a fuck, but you want Wisconsin to be the Lions of D-1? Besides, Leonhard has always been a guy who feast on the likes of Southern Kentucky Confederate State A&M, but can’t beat the likes of the Ohio State.

Wisconsin would be wise to hire someone with no ties to Alvarez. Gotta get someone who can recruit them new breed of dual threat hotshot QBs. Lord knows Alvarez couldn’t recruit QBs worth a fuck. Ditto, his hand-picked successors.

That being said, I’d rather Leonhard be DC of my beloved Pack than Barry.

[Fritz]

At this moment I'd rather see my 86-year-old mom roaming the sidelines with a headset than Barry.

[run pMc]

At this moment I'd rather see my 86-year-old mom roaming the sidelines with a headset than Barry.

I would too.

[JABF]

Nothing bothers me more as a Packer fan than watching an opposing quarterback have all day to throw the ball. I well remember that '85 Bears defense and Buddy Ryan's 46 defense, and in all my years of watching football - since about 1967 - that was one of the best I've ever seen (along with the Steel Curtain defenses of the 70's, and the Giants' defenses of the 80's with Lawrence Taylor). Those defenses shut down the run, for sure, but they also had ferocious pass rushes. Just ferocious.

Although I recognize the risks of blitzing, I think coaches generally are too conservative, and this is true when it comes to blitzing. One concern I have is that Joe Barry seems extremely conservative so far, and that is no way to play defense, espcecially when you can't generate a pass rush. In that sense he reminds me of Dom Capers, who seemed to get more conservative along the way.

So my hope is that the players will get used to the system and Barry will adjust to his shitty defensive line corps by playing the younger D-linemen and blitzing more.

I remember a comment John Madden made during that 1985 season when everyone was talking about the Bears' 46 defense. Madden said it wasn't the scheme that made it elite but the players in that scheme. He said that elite players can make any scheme look great. That 1985 team had 9 Pro Bowl players and 4 Hall of Fame players - most of them were on defense. Mike Ditka was not a good coach, nor was Buddy Ryan. But they looked like geniuses when they had lights-out talent.

[Bretsky]

Guess what, the Lions play with a tons of intensity under Campbell, too. Not that I give a fuck, but you want Wisconsin to be the Lions of D-1? Besides, Leonhard has always been a guy who feast on the likes of Southern Kentucky Confederate State A&M, but can’t beat the likes of the Ohio State.

Wisconsin would be wise to hire someone with no ties to Alvarez. Gotta get someone who can recruit them new breed of dual threat hotshot QBs. Lord knows Alvarez couldn’t recruit QBs worth a fuck. Ditto, his hand-picked successors.

That being said, I’d rather Leonhard be DC of my beloved Pack than Barry.


FYI….Leonard has no coaching ties to Barry. He would have been a great DC for the packers talent

[Anti-Polar Bear]

[QUOTE=Bretsky;1123750]FYI

[Anti-Polar Bear]

FYI….Leonard has no coaching ties to Barry. He would have been a great DC for the packers talent

Leonhard was hired by Chryst, who was hired by Alvarez. It is like McCarthy having ties to Walsh because he coached under Hackett, who coached under Walsh.

Wisconsin should hire my childhood idol, Neon Deion Sanders. All them 4-5 stars recruits would be flocking to Madison to play for Coach Prime.

[run pMc]

FIRW BWRRY!

[Fritz]

I remember a comment John Madden made during that 1985 season when everyone was talking about the Bears' 46 defense. Madden said it wasn't the scheme that made it elite but the players in that scheme. He said that elite players can make any scheme look great. That 1985 team had 9 Pro Bowl players and 4 Hall of Fame players - most of them were on defense. Mike Ditka was not a good coach, nor was Buddy Ryan. But they looked like geniuses when they had lights-out talent.

Well, generally I agree with you. I think Madden was right, but on the other hand, I think it's hard to argue that this defense is less than the sum of its parts. You've got a rock-solid safety in Amos, three of the top corners in the league, a first round ILB who's fast, Devondre Campbell, who's been a wonder, Rashan Gary - what a pass rusher - Preston Smith, again solid as a rock, and an elite nose tackle in Kenny Clark.

That's a lot of defensive talent. Barry has molded and shaped that talent - into a turd.

[Joemailman]

That's a lot of defensive talent. Barry has molded and shaped that talent - into a turd.

With more to come.

https://media.tenor.com/8pfc6_evUYYAAAAM/poop-machine-brown-liquid.gif

[RashanGary]

The defense has been decent. If the offense wasn’t so god awful, the defense wouldn’t be put right back on the field over and over and over. I like this defense.

[Bretsky]

Leonhard was hired by Chryst, who was hired by Alvarez. It is like McCarthy having ties to Walsh because he coached under Hackett, who coached under Walsh.

Wisconsin should hire my childhood idol, Neon Deion Sanders. All them 4-5 stars recruits would be flocking to Madison to play for Coach Prime.


Sanders would never come to Wisconsin IMO

[run pMc]

[QUOTE=RashanGary;1123804]The defense has been decent. If the offense wasn

[Joemailman]

The defense has been decent. If the offense wasn’t so god awful, the defense wouldn’t be put right back on the field over and over and over. I like this defense.

Last week this defense gave up points on 5 consecutive drives. TD's on 3 consecutive drives. It would have been 4 consecutive drives with TD's if the half hadn't ended. And unlike the offense, the defense has been practically injury-free. Did I mention there are 7 1st round picks on this defense? This defense defines underachiever.

[texaspackerbacker]

The underachievment is spelled B A R R Y (or Berry - whatever works hahahaha).

[Teamcheez1]

I want Barry gone now, but it will likely be the end of the season, if at all. This is really MLF’s problem. He hired the bum. What if he decides to dig his heels in and keep him for another season?

[Joemailman]

Vic Fangio is a defensive consultant with the Eagles. Could be available for a DC job. His name was mentioned as a possible replacement back when the Packers fired Capers. At the time it was thought he wouldn't be interested in Packers job because he was a Capers disciple and didn't think the firing of Capers was justified.

[bobblehead]

Last week this defense gave up points on 5 consecutive drives. TD's on 3 consecutive drives. It would have been 4 consecutive drives with TD's if the half hadn't ended. And unlike the offense, the defense has been practically injury-free. Did I mention there are 7 1st round picks on this defense? This defense defines underachiever.

Are you really judging our defense based on how it played against the best quarterback in the NFL and the best overall offense? Our defense hasn't been as good as it should be but when you judge them based on a five drive series against the best offense and ignore the interceptions in the second half to try to keep us in the game you're not being fair.

[bobblehead]

Vic Fangio is a defensive consultant with the Eagles. Could be available for a DC job. His name was mentioned as a possible replacement back when the Packers fired Capers. At the time it was thought he wouldn't be interested in Packers job because he was a Capers disciple and didn't think the firing of Capers was justified.

Vic is a more modernized version of capers. It would be awesome if they hired him and I had advocated it in the past but Barry will get to finish this season regardless

[Joemailman]

Are you really judging our defense based on how it played against the best quarterback in the NFL and the best overall offense? Our defense hasn't been as good as it should be but when you judge them based on a five drive series against the best offense and ignore the interceptions in the second half to try to keep us in the game you're not being fair.

The defense disappearing for long stretches of games has been a problem all year. The week before they gave up points on 3 straight 2nd half drives in a very winnable game. Getting 2 4th quarter INT's against Bills with the game already lost looks good on the stat sheet, but isn't very impactful.

[bobblehead]

I will not bag on barry until he coaches a bad playoff game. SF didn't RUN all over us like every other team in the playoffs has the last few years. ST and dysfunctional offense lost that game. If barry costs us a playoff game I'll be on the "YOU'RE FIRED!!" bandwagon.

[run pMc]

I don't think Josh Allen really hurt the Packers, I think the fact they could not stop the run hurt them. Devin Singletary had one of his better games against this defense, and there's plenty of film clips on twitter of poor run fits and bad tackling to prove it.
Barry statistically hasn't really been much of an upgrade to Pettine, has he? (By scoring, yards or DVOA)

It's an ok defense but the talent suggests it could be more. I think they'd look (and play) better if the offense was putting up 28+ points per game and could play with a lead more. Going into the year we all knew the defense was going to need to be good and expected it to be good and it has been inconsistent at best. No wonder the camp buzz was that the D was very good - the offense stunk. I have to think holding Fournette under 40 yards rushing was an aberration caused by Tampa's makeshift line.

I'm not a fan of Barry, Fangio or Zimmer would be upgrades IMO. MLF won't do a mid-year change - if he makes one at all. I hope he makes one at year's end.
Oh, by the way, look at how Ejiro Evero is doing for Denver. They could've hired him instead of Barry.

[run pMc]

I will not bag on barry until he coaches a bad playoff game. SF didn't RUN all over us like every other team in the playoffs has the last few years. ST and dysfunctional offense lost that game. If barry costs us a playoff game I'll be on the "YOU'RE FIRED!!" bandwagon.

In fairness to Barry, there have been a couple of games this year where his game plan was actually ok and they just didn't execute, or the offense let them down. They played good enough against WAS (except for the run defense) to win that game. You could say Amari cost them the game with the muffed punt that turned into 3 points in a 2 point loss.

[Fritz]

I don't think Josh Allen really hurt the Packers, I think the fact they could not stop the run hurt them. Devin Singletary had one of his better games against this defense, and there's plenty of film clips on twitter of poor run fits and bad tackling to prove it.
Barry statistically hasn't really been much of an upgrade to Pettine, has he? (By scoring, yards or DVOA)

It's an ok defense but the talent suggests it could be more. I think they'd look (and play) better if the offense was putting up 28+ points per game and could play with a lead more. Going into the year we all knew the defense was going to need to be good and expected it to be good and it has been inconsistent at best. No wonder the camp buzz was that the D was very good - the offense stunk. I have to think holding Fournette under 40 yards rushing was an aberration caused by Tampa's makeshift line.

I'm not a fan of Barry, Fangio or Zimmer would be upgrades IMO. MLF won't do a mid-year change - if he makes one at all. I hope he makes one at year's end.
Oh, by the way, look at how Ejiro Evero is doing for Denver. They could've hired him instead of Barry.

I don't recall the names, but I was hoping at the time of the DC opening that MLF would hire a young buck to run things. But he did not. And how is the Denver defense doing?

[Joemailman]

https://twitter.com/search?q=%22Fire%20Barry%22&src=trend_click&vertical=trends

[bobblehead]

The problem is same as it has been forever with our D. We can't stop a 2 dimensional offense. If you looked at the Derrick Henry box score you would be convinced we shut them down and won the game.

I am officially on the fire Joe B bandwagon now. You can't gameplan to stop Henry and COMPLETELY ignore the passing game. That was embarrassing.

[run pMc]

Yeah, I'm on the bandwagon. I don't think he adjusts fast enough, and I don't think he's creative.

I also think his defense is too passive, whether it be in pass rushing or pass coverage. Playing soft zone and letting teams dog-walk you down the field is demoralizing. They talk about how much talent their secondary has with Jaire, Rasul, Stokes, Amos, and Savage but they rarely if ever let them play aggressively. What's the point of having the highest paid CB in the league and have him sitting bored in the curl/flat part of a zone? You can get a rookie to do that.

I see a defense that rarely (if ever) dictates to the opposing teams offense or forces their hand. It's reactive play and I think the defense would be better if they attacked more.

[Joemailman]

I don't recall the names, but I was hoping at the time of the DC opening that MLF would hire a young buck to run things. But he did not. And how is the Denver defense doing?

Ejiro Evero, now with Denver, was that guy. I believe MLF interviewed him. The Denver defense is #1 in points allowed, and #2 in yards allowed. :bang:

[Sparkey]

Ejiro Evero, now with Denver, was that guy. I believe MLF interviewed him. The Denver defense is #1 in points allowed, and #2 in yards allowed. :bang:

Remember, that Denver offense is just as putrid as Green Bays. So the whole "blame the offense" for the D's failings just doesn't fly.

[Joemailman]

Can't believe no one bumped this thread last night. The good news is I think that Barry is finished here. He'll be allowed to finish the season, but he'll be gone. Last night's comeback proved MLF hasn't lost the team. But Barry has lost the defense. If MLF were to bring Barry back, he might well lose the team.

[Fosco33]

What’s the point of keeping him around - why not give an assistant a real job interview? Or rotate different assistants each game??

[Joemailman]

What’s the point of keeping him around - why not give an assistant a real job interview? Or rotate different assistants each game??

I think they need to overhaul the defensive staff. Most of these guys are holdovers from the Pettine era or before. I don't think there's anyone on the staff who would be a candidate for DC.

[Jaire]

"The Pettine Era" -- That word now makes me nostalgic... as well as the "Caper's era".

[bobblehead]

I will not bag on barry until he coaches a bad playoff game. SF didn't RUN all over us like every other team in the playoffs has the last few years. ST and dysfunctional offense lost that game. If barry costs us a playoff game I'll be on the "YOU'RE FIRED!!" bandwagon.

Ok, guess I'm a hypocrite. That wasn't a playoff game, but Barry needs to go.

[call_me_ishmael]

I just had the thought - does Jimmy Leonhard even have the NFL connections to form a competent coaching staff? Are there examples of other coordinators going from college to NFL and being successful? Joe Brady was kind of a bust.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

"The Pettine Era" -- That word now makes me nostalgic... as well as the "Caper's era".

The Capers era is actually better than you remember if you go back and look at it.

Woods won D-MVP. Claymaker was a great white hope. The Psycho. Super Bowl 45 champs. Yeah, yeah. Kap owned the Packers. But Kap was awesome.

Thomason’s incompetent decision to draft Nikita Perry over hip hop safety Harrison Smith pretty much doomed Capers.

[run pMc]

Barry has to go.
The last two games have been very poor defensive performances, with the season on the line and the offense actually scoring points.

[King Friday]

I just had the thought - does Jimmy Leonhard even have the NFL connections to form a competent coaching staff? Are there examples of other coordinators going from college to NFL and being successful? Joe Brady was kind of a bust.

I’m going to give the benefit of the doubt to a guy who played as long as Leonhard did in the NFL. To say he’s some uneducated bimbo on professional football defense is going out on a limb. The head coach will still have the most sway on who position coaches are, but I’m sure Leonhard has a lot of connections in NFL defensive circles due to his stature in the league as a player and a guy who has piped a fair amount of talent into the league from the college level.

[call_me_ishmael]

I’m going to give the benefit of the doubt to a guy who played as long as Leonhard did in the NFL. To say he’s some uneducated bimbo on professional football defense is going out on a limb. The head coach will still have the most sway on who position coaches are, but I’m sure Leonhard has a lot of connections in NFL defensive circles due to his stature in the league as a player and a guy who has piped a fair amount of talent into the league from the college level.

I definitely don't think that, but I do not know whether he has the personal connections in the league to build a great coaching staff. Generally it seems like most coaches start as low level assistants and climb the ladder in the league that way. It doesn't happen too often where a coach comes from college straight to the pros and is successful (Jimmy Johnson comes to mind, most others seem to bust off the top of my head). By starting low and climbing, you naturally build friendships and trusted allies amongst your peers, etc that you can leverage later either for a spot on your staff or to get their opinion on a person. I guess Jimmy could lean on Pettine and maybe Rex Ryan still has some connections, etc.

[bobblehead]

I just had the thought - does Jimmy Leonhard even have the NFL connections to form a competent coaching staff? Are there examples of other coordinators going from college to NFL and being successful? Joe Brady was kind of a bust.

He only played for a decade in the NFL so there is that.

[The Shadow]

Fangio & Zimmer are sitting at home? Barry still has a job?????

[Joemailman]

Fangio & Zimmer are sitting at home? Barry still has a job?????

They are both employed right now, not as coordinators, but should be available after the season.

[th87]

Meanwhile, the guy we could've had is doing rather well in Denver:

https://www.si.com/nfl/broncos/news/ejiro-evero-broncos-head-coach-rumor

[bobblehead]

Meanwhile, the guy we could've had is doing rather well in Denver:

https://www.si.com/nfl/broncos/news/ejiro-evero-broncos-head-coach-rumor

Yea, I remember all your posts pimping this guy back during the hiring process....NOT

Its easy to take the one example of the one guy who is awesome and indict the brass for not hiring him. I can do it in the draft by cherry picking 1 player drafted after our guy who was better as well. I don't recall you or anyone else pimping this dude back when.....of course I don't read much of your stuff though, so maybe you were.

[th87]

Yea, I remember all your posts pimping this guy back during the hiring process....NOT

Its easy to take the one example of the one guy who is awesome and indict the brass for not hiring him. I can do it in the draft by cherry picking 1 player drafted after our guy who was better as well. I don't recall you or anyone else pimping this dude back when.....of course I don't read much of your stuff though, so maybe you were.

What a stellar argument. Am I paid to evaluate coaching talent? Am I scouring the Rams assistant ranks to uncover diamonds in the rough? Do I know Sean McVay? No, no, and no.

But whoever *does* have this job messed up. They had him. We can criticize our receivers for drops despite us not having their ability to make catches, right? So why not the brass for making a huge hiring mistake, i.e. not doing their job?

And it's not like this outcome was unforeseen and unlucky. Everyone knew Barry sucked. And to the surprise of no one, he sucks now. His hiring was stupid then and it's stupid now, and the ones who made that call now raise serious questions on their own credibility.

[bobblehead]

What a stellar argument. Am I paid to evaluate coaching talent? Am I scouring the Rams assistant ranks to uncover diamonds in the rough? Do I know Sean McVay? No, no, and no.

But whoever *does* have this job messed up. They had him. We can criticize our receivers for drops despite us not having their ability to make catches, right? So why not the brass for making a huge hiring mistake, i.e. not doing their job?

And it's not like this outcome was unforeseen and unlucky. Everyone knew Barry sucked. And to the surprise of no one, he sucks now. His hiring was stupid then and it's stupid now, and the ones who made that call now raise serious questions on their own credibility.
I'll grant you that hiring Barry was hiring a retread and a bad decision. But its ridiculous to harp on a guy who has been really good for part of a season as an example of how terrible we are at evaluating coaches. Its akin to saying every GM who passed on Brady through 5 rounds should be fired....which means even the guy who picked him should be fired.

[run pMc]

I think Zimmer is working for Deion, and Fangio has a consultant's gig but you could probably lure either back to the DC job. Rodgers likes Zimmer so that might not be a shocker.
I don't watch Badger football so I don't know if Leonhard is innovative or anything. It's also unclear to me if Big10 is known for offensive juggernauts outside of OSU.

To Barry, I can't think of a single player outside of Rashan Gary who has improved under Barry's tenure. Even Jaire has gotten worse.

Unless it's a coach with proven creativity (like Fangio or Zimmer) I wouldn't want a retread hire at DC. Barry might understand how to run a scheme but I'm not sure he understands how to adapt it to players or the opposing offense... in which case they could just have an AI robot calling their defense and it might play better. Retread copycats like Barry who have all the connections nepotism brings shouldn't be hired as anything more than a position coach.

[texaspackerbacker]

If Hackett actually gets fired in Denver - which I kinda doubt after just one season, and if Quinn, a defensive guy, replaces him, then we might have a chance to snag Evero to replace Joe Barry.

[Joemailman]

Is Barry Lazarus?

[texaspackerbacker]

I'm still VERY much in favor of them firing Barry, but either he actually made some quality adjustments at halftime, which he has beeen really bad about just about every other time, or else Miami and in particular, Tua, just came crashing down to earth and left their brains in the locker room. Listening to LaFleur after the game, I'm thinking it's not as likely as most of us would like that Barry gets fired. And if the Packers do win out and get to the playoffs, etc., even more likely he stays.

[Bretsky]

yup; CONGRATS TO BARRY

[run pMc]

If Hackett actually gets fired in Denver - which I kinda doubt after just one season, and if Quinn, a defensive guy, replaces him, then we might have a chance to snag Evero to replace Joe Barry.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/broncos/2022/12/26/denver-broncos-nathaniel-hackett-fired-head-after-4-11-record/10880403002

Hackett leaves Denver with a 4-11 record after a 51-14 beatdown by the Los Angeles Rams on Sunday.

Of course, you can skip the story if you don't want to believe the lying media pukes, and just assume he's still coaching there and doing great.

[Fritz]

Well, does this mean that this Evero could be available?

Please God make MLF fire Joe Barely after the season. Please. The players seem like they're all ad-libbing. I don't see a unit that has any discipline, and the lack of use of Wyatt when the team had a poor defensive line anyway is a mystery.

Undisciplined defense. Even the picks were odd. Alexander intercepted a horribly overthrown ball. Campbell - okay, that was good - but Douglas was again peeking in the backfield and guessed right after getting burned several times.

Fire Joe Barely, please.

[Bretsky]

Well, does this mean that this Evero could be available?

Please God make MLF fire Joe Barely after the season. Please. The players seem like they're all ad-libbing. I don't see a unit that has any discipline, and the lack of use of Wyatt when the team had a poor defensive line anyway is a mystery.

Undisciplined defense. Even the picks were odd. Alexander intercepted a horribly overthrown ball. Campbell - okay, that was good - but Douglas was again peeking in the backfield and guessed right after getting burned several times.

Fire Joe Barely, please.



Was it Joe Barry who MLF was hugging after the Dolphins game ?

[Joemailman]

Was it Joe Barry who MLF was hugging after the Dolphins game ?

No. He was hugging Tua.

[George Cumby]

^ LOL

[MadtownPacker]

No. He was hugging Tua.Its funny because you know he wanted to.

[bobblehead]

After what I witnessed Denvers defense display I'm not so sure I want their D coordinator.

All the rats that whine about lack of halftime adjustments should be kissing Joe Barry's crack for the 2nd half turnaround.

I turned on Barry like everyone else, but I can give some credit where its due. He shut down a monster offense for an entire half of football.

[Fosco33]

After what I witnessed Denvers defense display I'm not so sure I want their D coordinator.

All the rats that whine about lack of halftime adjustments should be kissing Joe Barry's crack for the 2nd half turnaround.

I turned on Barry like everyone else, but I can give some credit where its due. He shut down a monster offense for an entire half of football.

I think we got a bit lucky w/ Tua’s concussion

[Sparkey]

I think we got a bit lucky w/ Tua’s concussion

Convenient concussion after a three pick half. Did he hit his head on the bubbler in the locker room at halftime ?

[Fosco33]

Convenient concussion after a three pick half. Did he hit his head on the bubbler in the locker room at halftime ?

https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/1607499539925049346?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcam p%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

[Sparkey]

https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/1607499539925049346?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcam p%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

If that is it, the guy should retire before his brain is mush. Ever notice how some players learn how to fall and protect themselves and others do not ? No matter the tackle he always seems to fall backwards.

[Joemailman]

If he's concussed. that would he his 3rd one this year. If so, he should definitely be done at least for the year.

[Joemailman]

There are reports that Sean Payton is planning a return to coaching. He is already putting a coaching staff together that includes Vic Fangio as DC.

[Freak Out]

I heard the talking heads on Christmas mention he was "building a staff " to shop around.

[bobblehead]

If he's concussed. that would he his 3rd one this year. If so, he should definitely be done at least for the year.

If you are a fan of boxing, you know that it takes MONTHS to recover from a bad concussion. You might feel ok after a week, but you ain't right. Modern day boxers tend to take a year off after a bad knockout.

[texaspackerbacker]

So based on that video, Enagbare is the Packer Player of the Game hahahaha.

[The Shadow]

The Packers D seems to be freelancing at this point. They were fortunate to be in the right places for the interceptions & it didn't hurt that the opposing QB might have been concussed.

[run pMc]

I'll give Berry credit for his 2nd half D against the Dolphins, and there have been a few other games where 2nd half has been better, but I still think he needs to go.
I've seen enough to know he's not the answer at DC.

[bobblehead]

The Packers D seems to be freelancing at this point. They were fortunate to be in the right places for the interceptions & it didn't hurt that the opposing QB might have been concussed.

You base this on your intricate knowledge of the scheme?

[bobblehead]

I'll give Berry credit for his 2nd half D against the Dolphins, and there have been a few other games where 2nd half has been better, but I still think he needs to go.
I've seen enough to know he's not the answer at DC.

I agree to a point. But the final chapter hasn't been written yet. If Leonhard is available I would like to see a change (or Fangio).

[Joemailman]

Leonhard has been very quiet since announcing he won't return to Badgers. What are the chances he has offer from Packers already?

[texaspackerbacker]

I thought he flat out said it hahahaha. I guess I'd be ok with the Packers hiring him - anybody but Barry. Leonhard's D ought to work better in the NFL than it did with the Badgers. I'm a little concerned, though, with his tendency to shock and awe teams early, and then in the second half when they adjust, he has a hard time counter-adjusting.

[George Cumby]

Leonhard has been very quiet since announcing he won't return to Badgers. What are the chances he has offer from Packers already?

*fingers crossed*

[Bretsky]

Leonhard has been very quiet since announcing he won't return to Badgers. What are the chances he has offer from Packers already?


Very slim. I really think some in here are underestimating the friendship along with some loyalty that mlf has. I also don’t think it’s remotely a given that Barry is gone

[Bretsky]

With the type of defenses Leonard runs and the creative blitz blitz packages he sends I think he would be a perfect fit with gb and their athleticism

[texaspackerbacker]

True, but even with the outstanding Packer Corners, leaving them out on an island is risky, and that's the main if not only tactic Leonhard uses. I watched Oklahoma in their bowl game tonight, and it really reminded me of the Badger D - getting burned repeatedly by a good but not really great offense. And regardless of who your outside rushers are, they aren't always gonna get home in the NFL. When they didn't at Wisconsin, Jimmy's D got gashed a lot. And then there's the adjustment thing ......

[RashanGary]

Jaire has an amazing feel for when to crash down out of his zone and make a play on the ball. He’s an elite zone corner. Barry is playing to his top guys strengths. Jaire would get murdered in man.

[texaspackerbacker]

I sort of think the opposite. Jaire has always been an elite Man Corner, although he maybe has slipped up and got beat a few times this season. In zone, he sometimes freelances, causing the whole scheme to break down. That crashing down you're talking about is great - right up until it isn't, and somebody is wide open. That has happened too many times this season.

I don't think Jerry Gray is a very good teacher of Zone D, and I think Barry's schemes rely too much on that Zone D which gets faulty too often.

[run pMc]

Agree. Jaire was excellent man/press-man cover corner coming out of college. He can do it all but is better at man coverage.

Barry plays a zone-heavy scheme.
Pettine played more man coverage, don't recall much if any press-man though. Drove me crazy to see a giant corner like Kevin King lined up 8-10 yards off but in man coverage.

I'd like to see the corners play more physical inside the 5 yard zone from the LOS to throw off timing and maul younger/smaller receivers. Rasul is a big dude and Jaire/Stokes have make-up speed, plus that's what you have safeties and zone coverage to help with.

I think Jaire and Stokes are better man corners, and Rasul better in zone.

[bobblehead]

Seems the rumors of Mr. Berry's demise have been greatly exaggerated.

[RashanGary]

Seems the rumors of Mr. Berry's demise have been greatly exaggerated.

Yep. blaming the coach is the easiest fan outlet but it’s not always accurate. Players make all the difference.

[Joemailman]

It did take him too long to get this defense playing up to their ability. It will be a tough call for MLF on whether to keep Barry because Barry has shown he is capable of putting together good game plans when their backs are to the wall. But it shouldn't take so long.

[RashanGary]

It did take him too long to get this defense playing up to their ability. It will be a tough call for MLF on whether to keep Barry because Barry has shown he is capable of putting together good game plans when their backs are to the wall. But it shouldn't take so long.

How do we know it was Joe Barry putting together bad plans and not players having bad games?

[Joemailman]

How do we know it was Joe Barry putting together bad plans and not players having bad games?

So you should never fire a coach because the problem might just be that the players are playing bad?

[RashanGary]

So you should never fire a coach because the problem might just be that the players are playing bad?

It’s hard to sit on the outside and accurately blame the coach. Lafleur has a better feel than fans do. Savage got benched and now is playing better. Credit the coach there.

It’s a pet peeve of mine to always blame the coach.

But special teams got better with a new coach, punter, holder, special teams aces and returner, so maybe the coach contributed.

[call_me_ishmael]

It’s one game fellas.

[Joemailman]

It’s one game fellas.

It's now 4 straight games that they've given up 20 or less. The last 2 against pretty good offensive teams. I've been a critic of Barry, but he deserves some credit for the team's turnaround.

[texaspackerbacker]

I'm starting to warm up to Barry. I still wouldn't mind if they got rid of him, but I also wouldn't mind too much if he stayed. As I said in the other thread. Barry seems to have the loyalty of the players, but he also has to show some smarts in his scheming. Today he did - Romo did a good job of explaining why they did better. As Bretsky said, it's increasingly doubtful they get rid of him.

[Bretsky]

I think at times this seson Barry's game plans were horrible and his lack of adjustments at halftime exposed him. Go play back the first game and tell me the defense was remotely prepared and the game plan was remotely competent.

But he also gets credit for the recent resurgence, and learning from all his F'ck ups week one in how to defend an elite WR.

[Bretsky]

I'm starting to warm up to Barry. I still wouldn't mind if they got rid of him, but I also wouldn't mind too much if he stayed. As I said in the other thread. Barry seems to have the loyalty of the players, but he also has to show some smarts in his scheming. Today he did - Romo did a good job of explaining why they did better. As Bretsky said, it's increasingly doubtful they get rid of him.



Agree with all of this. I still think he's below average, but the end of the season is savings his job. And he is MLF's friend as well so we'll always error on the side of caution.

[call_me_ishmael]

It's now 4 straight games that they've given up 20 or less. The last 2 against pretty good offensive teams. I've been a critic of Barry, but he deserves some credit for the team's turnaround.

I agree with this as well. At this point I think the D is peaking at the right time and playing good ball. The feller from Georgia seems to be getting a lot more snaps too which is great.

Overall I am optimistic and think this team is clearly better *right now* than the 7th seed. That's a good place to be. I doubt this dude is getting fired based on the way things are going presently.

[Bretsky]

Just keep in mind how many first round draft picks are
On this side of the ball. The expectation was a top 5 area defense by many

[call_me_ishmael]

I kinda wonder if there are any aging-but-still-good pass rushers out there on the street. Still feel like that could be the downfall of this team come playoff time.

[run pMc]

I kinda wonder if there are any aging-but-still-good pass rushers out there on the street. Still feel like that could be the downfall of this team come playoff time.

Unlikely... good pass rushers of any age are rarely on the street. They are like gold. Mercilus being available last year was a fluke.
Seemed like Hollins is getting more reps than Enagbare? I noticed him a few times yesterday, he's actually been a pretty good pickup for them. Way better than Garvin IMO.

[Joemailman]

Unlikely... good pass rushers of any age are rarely on the street. They are like gold. Mercilus being available last year was a fluke.
Seemed like Hollins is getting more reps than Enagbare? I noticed him a few times yesterday, he's actually been a pretty good pickup for them. Way better than Garvin IMO.

Enagbare had 34 snaps. Hollins 26. FWIW, I thought Hollins flashed more. Both had 2 QB hits. Hollins had 1 TFL.

[bobblehead]

I'm back where i was a few weeks back. My opinion of Barry will be mainly based on playoffs. He stoned SF last year when the other 2 units stunk on ice. If he does same this year I won't much care about week 11 so much.

[bobblehead]

Enagbare had 34 snaps. Hollins 26. FWIW, I thought Hollins flashed more. Both had 2 QB hits. Hollins had 1 TFL.

Hollins is a pass rush specialist only. He is god awful vs. the run.

[Sparkey]

https://247sports.com/nfl/green-bay-packers/Article/The-Packers-completely-overhauled-their-defensive-structure-at-the-bye-week-202069450/

[run pMc]

https://247sports.com/nfl/green-bay-packers/Article/The-Packers-completely-overhauled-their-defensive-structure-at-the-bye-week-202069450/

So he waited until Week 14 to call more Cover-2 and Cover-6, and blitzed less? Why should that take an extra week to figure out?
It's true that previously he was calling Cover-3 a lot, even at stupid times. I don't think this 'change' is really all that dramatic - it's still a lot of zone coverage. I'd say since MIA they've played more man coverage which suits the CBs well.

I have a horrible feeling MLF will let him keep his job. I don't enjoy seeing people lose their jobs, but I don't think Barry should be the DC next year.

That it took him until week 14 to make changes doesn't make him some kind of misunderstood genius. If anything, it continues to support the narrative that this team is bad at self-scouting, and slow to make adjustments.

[Sparkey]

So he waited until Week 14 to call more Cover-2 and Cover-6, and blitzed less? Why should that take an extra week to figure out?
It's true that previously he was calling Cover-3 a lot, even at stupid times. I don't think this 'change' is really all that dramatic - it's still a lot of zone coverage. I'd say since MIA they've played more man coverage which suits the CBs well.

I have a horrible feeling MLF will let him keep his job. I don't enjoy seeing people lose their jobs, but I don't think Barry should be the DC next year.

That it took him until week 14 to make changes doesn't make him some kind of misunderstood genius. If anything, it continues to support the narrative that this team is bad at self-scouting, and slow to make adjustments.

I'm right there with you. If anything, Barry is a reactive DC and not proactive. In other words, he wont change unless he is forced to. The good DC's are always looking to improve.

[run pMc]

I'm right there with you. If anything, Barry is a reactive DC and not proactive. In other words, he wont change unless he is forced to. The good DC's are always looking to improve.

Yeah, I think he's content to just basically run someone else's scheme and stick with it come hell or high water... which doesn't really seem like he adds any value. The move to Ford over Savage, and putting Savage in the slot took forever. Getting Wyatt on the field over Lowry required an injury. Bad tackling, bad communication in a secondary returning all its starters. Sitting back in zone coverage and letting the QB pat the ball until someone is open vs. scheming some pressure. Mixing up your coverages or disguising coverages. It's been vanilla at times, which makes me wonder (a) how it's being taught, (b) the intelligence of the players and (c) if the players have tuned him out.

To his credit, the defense has played better lately, and there have been games this year where he has had a good game plan -- even if the players poorly executed it. But honestly I think the recent surge is twofold: coaches are coaching for their jobs, and players realizing they can still make the playoffs and deciding to put up a fight to get in.

Is Jerry Montgomery a good DL coach? I kind of wonder.
The new OLB coach (Rebrovich or whatever) seems good - he's gotten good stuff from Enagbare and Hollins.
Jerry Gray had to yell at his players to get them to listen.
No idea on Olivadotti(?) the ILB coach.

[Bretsky]

I still think Barry is really sub par; I don't think we win it all with him at DC. Most likely, as I called 3 games ago, by running the table imo he's saves his job. I expect to beat Detroit. And then if we run into SF I expect an early exit and he'll be exposed somehow. The greater good; doesn't look like it'll happen anymore

[bobblehead]

..

[bobblehead]

https://247sports.com/nfl/green-bay-packers/Article/The-Packers-completely-overhauled-their-defensive-structure-at-the-bye-week-202069450/

I'm no defensive guru, but it seemed to me that he barely used either of those alignments in the first half of the Miami game, then almost exclusively in the 2nd half. The 4 man and only 4 man rush was what I noted at the time.

[bobblehead]

I'm right there with you. If anything, Barry is a reactive DC and not proactive. In other words, he wont change unless he is forced to. The good DC's are always looking to improve.

Or, he gives it a minute before over reacting. Remember, in the early parts of the season the D wasn't that bad. That article notes the "points allowed" but doesn't factor in our inept offense at the time that couldn't sustain a drive more than 4 or 5 plays. He made the adjustment. The D hasn't been the problem MOST of the season. If we roll into the playoffs with a defense that is carrying the team, firing him would be pretty crazy.

[bobblehead]

I still think Barry is really sub par; I don't think we win it all with him at DC. Most likely, as I called 3 games ago, by running the table imo he's saves his job. I expect to beat Detroit. And then if we run into SF I expect an early exit and he'll be exposed somehow. The greater good; doesn't look like it'll happen anymore

SF offense got about 6? on him last year in the playoffs. Is it fair to criticize him when his unit is the only one that showed up for the playoffs last season?

[run pMc]

SF offense got about 6? on him last year in the playoffs. Is it fair to criticize him when his unit is the only one that showed up for the playoffs last season?

I don't know that a playoff game last year is enough to save his job at the end of this year. Most coaches live in a win-now world.

The defense played excellent in the SF playoff game. I think he got credit for that.
Where he gets criticized is that he wasn't able to carry that over or build on it this year. The defense was supposed to be top 10 if not top 5.

Remember Game 1 vs. MIN and JJ running wide open?
Remember Tannehill easily outplaying Rodgers while TEN carved up the defense?
How about giving up more rushing yards to PHI than they did in the Kaepernick playoff game?
Remember the 'Savage would be unbelievable' in the slot remark earlier this year, and how it took him another 2 weeks to actually try it?

Plenty of times this year the defense has looked shaky at best. They have come on as of late, maybe it does save his job. There have been games this year where he deserves credit, but there were reasons for the chatter around firing him mid-season.

Either way I think he's a subpar DC.

[Bretsky]

SF offense got about 6? on him last year in the playoffs. Is it fair to criticize him when his unit is the only one that showed up for the playoffs last season?


Are you trying to argue Barry is adequate, competent or above average, or just asking if one playoff game omits him from criticism ? I didn't complain about Barry after the SF game and he gets some credit there.

But he was unqualified from day one and has done very little to change my mind that he can lead up to winning a Super Bowl

[texaspackerbacker]

I'm certainly not gonna defend Barry. I've been as much against him as anybody. But two things: LaFleur doesn't seem to share the negativity most of us have with him, and the Packers in fact CAN win with him - make that in spite of his alleged lack of competence as a DC. They did last season, and they've seemingly snapped out of the funk and played some better late this season. If Rodgers, Jones, and the receivers are on their game, we still can beat anybody.

[bobblehead]

I'm playing devil's advocate more than defending him. And I'm pretty sure most of those critiquing him are the same who say the owl is the only measure if success. Rodgers gets you to the playoffs alone. But defense in the playoffs wins owls.

[Bretsky]

I'm playing devil's advocate more than defending him. And I'm pretty sure most of those critiquing him are the same who say the owl is the only measure if success. Rodgers gets you to the playoffs alone. But defense in the playoffs wins owls.


Well I think I agree with you; if the measure of succcess is just getting to the playoffs it doesn't matter who our Defensive Coordinator is :)

For me with AROD it's SB or BUST. Do out with the pretender and bring us a quality DC.

[bobblehead]

Well I think I agree with you; if the measure of succcess is just getting to the playoffs it doesn't matter who our Defensive Coordinator is :)

For me with AROD it's SB or BUST. Do out with the pretender and bring us a quality DC.

But my point is that Barry has only had one playoff game with us (2 if you count last week). So far he has balled out when it matters most. If that continues, even if we lose, I can't see him getting fired. I have pounded the table for Leonhard as much as anyone, and I would be thrilled to swap out for Fangio. But to quote Paula Abdul "if he can....." If he can shut down another few offenses (MN, Det and whoever we play in the playoffs) then he doesn't deserve to be fired.

[Sparkey]

https://wisportsheroics.com/how-joe-barry-has-crafted-an-adaptable-defense/

[Joemailman]

In PC, MLF says he anticipates Barry will be back next year.

[run pMc]

Unbelievable.
https://www.acmepackingcompany.com/2023/1/10/23548131/matt-lafleur-anticipates-packers-coaching-staff-to-return-for-2023-including-joe-barry

Over half your starting D is 1st round picks, and you still finish with middling league rankings AND keep your job.

[Joemailman]

Unbelievable.
https://www.acmepackingcompany.com/2023/1/10/23548131/matt-lafleur-anticipates-packers-coaching-staff-to-return-for-2023-including-joe-barry

Over half your starting D is 1st round picks, and you still finish with middling league rankings AND keep your job.

This angle is getting a bit overblown though. Yes, they have 7 1st round picks on defense. But of those, 2 were rookies, 1 missed most of the season with an injury, 1 missed half of the season with an injury. It's not like they were putting 7 experienced 1st round picks in the starting lineup every week.

[call_me_ishmael]

Something that continues to bewilder me a bit is how can Kenny Clark be so dominant and be one of the highest paid DL and the DL still kinda sucks consistently. I'm not saying it's his fault but the two things don't really align.

[RashanGary]

Clark was pedestrian in stretches this season, but pretty good in other stretches. He’s not in the top 5 interior DL in my opinion. He’s in the second tier. Gary is in the second tier of edges too. So to start the year we had two really good lineman. That’s just not going to blow you away. They’re not great. They’re good.

Lowry is a serviceable backup. Reed is a serviceable backup. Wyatt is a serviceable backup. Slaton is probably a serviceable starter. Preston is a serviceable starter. Enagbare is a serviceable backup.

The defense isn’t stacked. Joe Barry coached them about as well as anyone else would have.

And the back end isn’t great either, outside of Jaire.

[red]

Clark was pedestrian in stretches this season, but pretty good in other stretches. He’s not in the top 5 interior DL in my opinion. He’s in the second tier. Gary is in the second tier of edges too. So to start the year we had two really good lineman. That’s just not going to blow you away. They’re not great. They’re good.

Lowry is a serviceable backup. Reed is a serviceable backup. Wyatt is a serviceable backup. Slaton is probably a serviceable starter. Preston is a serviceable starter. Enagbare is a serviceable backup.

The defense isn’t stacked. Joe Barry coached them about as well as anyone else would have.

And the back end isn’t great either, outside of Jaire.

so then gutebag needs to be canned for pissing away all those 1st round picks on shit

you can't just have an obvious problem, but don't do anything about it because you can't decide which of the 2 guys responsible was the biggest problem

[Bretsky]

Clark was pedestrian in stretches this season, but pretty good in other stretches. He’s not in the top 5 interior DL in my opinion. He’s in the second tier. Gary is in the second tier of edges too. So to start the year we had two really good lineman. That’s just not going to blow you away. They’re not great. They’re good.

Lowry is a serviceable backup. Reed is a serviceable backup. Wyatt is a serviceable backup. Slaton is probably a serviceable starter. Preston is a serviceable starter. Enagbare is a serviceable backup.

The defense isn’t stacked. Joe Barry coached them about as well as anyone else would have.

And the back end isn’t great either, outside of Jaire.



Sure; Barry did a great job the first 12 games; he was fabulous developing players, getting the most out of them, making in game adjustments, and getting all of the players support behind him for at least 75% of the season.