DARK MILESTONE - Beat the anniversary by a couple days......

[Jimx29]

RJ Eskow: DARK MILESTONE: More Americans Have Now Died In Iraq Than Died On 9/11

RJ Eskow Tue Sep 12, 1:15 PM ET

While President Bush and other Republican politicians spent the day exploiting the memory of those we lost five years ago, the nation overlooked a grim milestone: More Americans have now died in
Iraq than died on 9/11. Iraq didn't attack us on that day, and our misguided policy there has now taken more American lives than Al Qaeda.

Here are the numbers: 3,015 Americans have died in Iraq as of September 9. 2,666 of these were military deaths and 349 were civilians.

The Republicans are fond of playing cheap number games with Iraqi casualty figures, and one of the ways they do it is by listing the deaths of enlisted personnel only. They're hoping that a lazy press and an indifferent public will overlook the civilian losses, and to a large extent they've been right so far.

A total of 2,973 people died on 9/11. Most, although not all, were Americans.


The Rest Of The Story (http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpost/20060912/cm_huffpost/029234) :sad:

[HarveyWallbangers]

The Republicans are fond of playing cheap number games with Iraqi casualty figures, and one of the ways they do it is by listing the deaths of enlisted personnel only. They're hoping that a lazy press and an indifferent public will overlook the civilian losses

Sounds like somebody who is really non-partisan.
:crazy:

[digitaldean]

Without turning this into FYI 4....

It is sad that we have had that many young men and women die in Iraq.

Each and every one is a precious, valuable soul.

That being said, I am TIRED of people looking at the death count as some kind of morbid toteboard like one used at a telethon.

Bin Laden has already stated that Iraq is the front for WW3. Islamo-fascists expect us to pull out just like Somalia, just like Vietnam.

It's amazing, the vast majority of the country is secure, but, boy we sure hear about what's going wrong in Baghdad. Not great news reporting on what's going right. Media can't make it look like they're a cheerleader. Yes, there is MUCH work to do. But let's unite behind our military and support them to find a solution to DEFEAT these butchers, then get our troops home!

I will end this mini-rant by stating that if we pull out, like those who wish that we do, Iran will flood over the eastern border and they will take over that country.

If you have a solution (and no, "redeploying" our Iraq troops to Okinawa is NOT a solution) that will bring true peace and end the violence and murder of Iraqi civlians, then state it.

[BF4MVP]

That's like...the saddest milestone ever... :cry:

[Joemailman]

It's difficult to come up witha solution, Dean, because this administration has screwed up the situation so bad, all of our options are bad, or at least filled with risk. If we stay, we continue to fuel the insurgency. If we leave, a full-blown civil war is a real possibility. It's interesting that supporters of the war would challenge critics to come up with a solution. For many of us, the solution was not to start this war in the first place, but we were ignored. No, the administration will have to come up with a solution. It's not like the President is going to listen to anyone outside his inner circle anyway.

[digitaldean]

It's difficult to come up witha solution, Dean, because this administration has screwed up the situation so bad, all of our options are bad, or at least filled with risk. If we stay, we continue to fuel the insurgency. If we leave, a full-blown civil war is a real possibility. It's interesting that supporters of the war would challenge critics to come up with a solution. For many of us, the solution was not to start this war in the first place, but we were ignored. No, the administration will have to come up with a solution. It's not like the President is going to listen to anyone outside his inner circle anyway.

In a post 9/11 world, Joe, doing nothing is not a viable option.

With Saddam violating 17 UN resolutions, a track record of using WMD on his own people, stealing money from oil for food program (and starving his own citizens), plus violating a cease fire treaty from FIRST Gulf War, I think there was ample reason to go into Iraq. (BTW, if Saddam had nothing to hide why did he play that dumb ass shell game with the UN inspectors?)

The only thing I fault the President for is not ramping things up after Saddam was captured and the insurgency grew. But if we started levelling cities, the hand wringing here and abroad would have been immense.

As for asking for others to come up with a solution, it's because I am sick and DAMN tired of people saying "bring the troops home now". Bailing is not a solution.

There are going to be more fights and tougher fights in this as the years go on. We can do nothing and wait for something to happen. Or we can exhaust all diplomatic means, then use force ONLY as a last resort. This country better have some resolve because this problem will span multiple presidencies, Democratic and Republican alike.

[falco]

In a post 9/11 world, Joe, doing nothing is not a viable option.

It sure beats setting up a terrorist homeland in the middle east.

[mraynrand]

If we stay, we continue to fuel the insurgency.

can you explain this one to me? The insurgency is largely Sunnis killing Shia - in particular, going after Iraqis lining up to join the army, blasting Mosques, etc., and Shia militia in return killing Sunni civilians. If you claim that if the U.S. leaves it could escalate into 'full-blown civil war,' then you must believe that U.S. presence is preventing that, right?

[mraynrand]

In a post 9/11 world, Joe, doing nothing is not a viable option.

It sure beats setting up a terrorist homeland in the middle east.

I don't follow you here. Is your claim that Iraq is a terrorist homeland? Are you arguing that Iraq is attracting terrorists? If so, why are they going to Iraq? What's happening to them in Iraq? If they weren't going to Iraq, do you think they would return to peaceful lives as goat herders, farmers, etc.?

[pacfan]

What we need to do is increase the troop levels to ensure that the military commanders are able to carry out their mission.

We shouldn't cut and run, because this is will not solve anything.

Its my belief that that the errors of Viet Nam are beginning to be repeated in Iraq. Primarily we have elected officials setting the policy for the military commanders. It doesn't mix well, politics and military objectives and this is hand-cuffing the progress we need to make in Iraq.

For the Dems and the left supporters, its very important that we finish the task of creating a democratic free government in Iraq. It will hurt us even more than 9/11 if we set a timetable and ultimately leave Iraq to its internal failures.

For the Reps and the Bush supporters, the government needs to stop setting the military policy and let the Generals on the scene make the decisions. Give them the military the resources they need and then leave them alone. Bush 41 did it in 90-91, Bush 43 should do that now. Quit trying to imporove poll numbers and let them finish the job.

Both sides ae politicizing this and this short-sightedness is going to hurt all of us later.

[MJZiggy]

Well-thought out post pacfan. I agree, the whole administration right now should be required to take History 101 "The Tactics of and Lessons from Viet Nam." We started it, now we have to finish it.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The situation in Iraq has become hopeless. There is nothing to finish. The Shittes have shown an unwillingness to share the goodies with the Sunni. Why, this week they attempted to push-through a law in the parliament that would effectively partition the country, and keep the oil money in the south. The consitution screws the Sunni, and the Shitte have reneged on their promise last fall to renegotiate the consitution.

I was a 100% supporter of the war effort to democatize Iraq. It failed. The Iraqi power brokers have chosen war and greed over compromise. There is NOTHING we can do to "win." It will take 10 years of exhausting civil war before the parties work out a deal.

It is so sad. I have never been so disappointed. I blame the inept and weak attempt by Rumsfeld at nation building. But I also share in the blame for being an enthusiastic war supporter in the first place.

[retailguy]

One has to be "careful" about the "decision" that this effort is taking too long or is hopeless. How can we possibly know the "timeframe" that this effort will take?

How can a country possibly embrace democracy when they've never known what freedom looks like, or feels like? How can they become "experts" in a year?

HH - you posted disillusionment about the sunni's & shiittes failing to get along. Have they "EVER" gotten along? Now, we're trying to install democracy and we say "they are your new friends and country mates. They are relevent".

Yeah right. The sunni's are a minority population that ruled Iraq with a stronghold dictatorship. Now you want the oppressed to embrace and include them two short years after liberation? We think the Shiia fail to cooperate means they're bad people hell bent on opressing their oppressors. This is surprising because....?

This "issue" will take YEARS to solve. YEARS. Bush told us that the first night he talked about the war. It IS progressing. Educating a country takes time. There have been mistakes made. I believe that's inevitable.

The next time someone tells you "its taking too long" ask them how they know? What benchmark, besides how they FEEL, tells them that the progression is SLOW?....

The "SLOW" progression is the "TOOL" that the democrats use to propel them back to power. You use the tools that you have at your disposal. Had this been a democrat initiated war, the republicans would use this tool also. Why? It's effective and NO ONE wants to be in the minority party, INCLUDING THE SUNNI'S.

Don't believe the spin machine. Remember the pictures of purple stained fingers. LISTEN to the troops who are on the ground dealing with the Iraqi population daily. IGNORE the media who have an agenda. THINK for yourself, don't believe "what you're told". Ask yourself, what benchmark besides your FEELINGS, could you possibly use to gauge the progession of this effort? It has never been done before. What map did Lewis & Clark use when they explored the Pacific Northwest? Seems to me that they wrote them map. The blueprint for democratizing an arab country is being written, and to WHAT should we all turn for guidance?

[Deputy Nutz]

The situation in Iraq has become hopeless. There is nothing to finish. The Shittes have shown an unwillingness to share the goodies with the Sunni. Why, this week they attempted to push-through a law in the parliament that would effectively partition the country, and keep the oil money in the south. The consitution screws the Sunni, and the Shitte have reneged on their promise last fall to renegotiate the consitution.

I was a 100% supporter of the war effort to democatize Iraq. It failed. The Iraqi power brokers have chosen war and greed over compromise. There is NOTHING we can do to "win." It will take 10 years of exhausting civil war before the parties work out a deal.

It is so sad. I have never been so disappointed. I blame the inept and weak attempt by Rumsfeld at nation building. But I also share in the blame for being an enthusiastic war supporter in the first place.

Ok fuck them all, Irag should just become the 51st of the United States of America. Hell more of my tax dollars have gone over there, then to my own country and state.

[Harlan Huckleby]

besides your FEELINGS, could you possibly use to gauge the progession of this effort? It has never been done before.

I am looking at the benchmark of political reconciliation. The wagon is moving in a non-productive direction, and we are in the back, pushing.

Right now, we are strengthening the Shitte-led Iraqi Army. But that army and its government is fighting to preserve a constitution that leads to the break-up of the country, and screws over the Sunni. Our "success" just leads to a religious-based statelet under Iranian influence, hogging the oil wealth.

The Shitte faction led by Moqtada Sadr, the crazy cleric, is probably closer to our interests than the current government! Sadr is an Iraqi nationalist, who wants to hold the country together with a strong central government. He is more or less anti-Iranian. Sadr's militia is the Mahdi Army. The other large militia, the one assoicated with the current government, is called the Badir Brigade. The Badir Brigade is composed of Iraqi Arabs, but it fought for Iran, against Iraq, during the war between those countries back in the 1980's!! People fail to realize that the civil war within the Shitte community, is just as strong as the Sunni-Shitte competition! And BTW, the Badir Brigade is currently siphoning-off most of the oil produced in the South. They control the trucks that leave the refinaries. The Mahdi Army is beginning to challenge them in the South.

Oh, and speaking of the Sunnis...... even though we are fighting to supress the SUnni insurgency, we actually really should be on their side!! The Sunni's want a unified country, where the oil wealth is shared fairly in all provences. This is the ONLY path towards a stable democratic solution.

Just forget it. The dynamics are impossible. Game over.