THE ART OF THE SUCCESSFUL KICK AND PUNT----SPECIAL TEAMS FAILURES

[Bretsky]

When I bought tickets to attend the Wisconsin vs. Notre Dame game at Soldier Field (what a shithole to be honest) I had the pleasure of sitting next to a former Scholarship UW Madison football player from the late 80's (when Don Morton was the coach). Due to results I have been banned from my friends from attending UW Madison Football Road Games. Being a chatty guy, I go to know this former UW OLineman and noticed his son was about 6 1" and about 190 lbs and played high school football.

I almost Sh#t on myself when his dad told me his son just signed a college scholarship to attend the University of Arkansas.......as.............a SNAPPER

Snappers get scholarships, I thought...holy shit ...........In speaking to his proud father, I learned a shit ton about special teams play as well as the timing and expectations now between the snapper, kickers, and punters.

His son, apparently, with one scouting service was rated as the #3 Loan Snapper in the USA

I chatted with him for nearly a half hour for the game and picked his head about all of this unfathomable stuff and learned a ton. Long Snapping has become a specialty and apparently his son has went to camps and did over 10,000 long snaps since 7th grade. U Arkansas put him through about 2.5 hours of snapping and hand speed drills and then made the offer.

The expectations have massively changed over the years. Apparently going into college the average span time from snapper to punter is about .67 seconds. In the pro's it's around .72 seconds because they stress speed a bit less and the position of where the ball is when the holder catches the ball MORE. If a long snapper can make four to five special teams tackles a year that is considered elite because then they have to have a blocker block the LS and it frees another person up.

ANYWAYS, back to the Expectations. This kid was judged off of the speed, accuracy, and how frequently the snap was caught by the punter with the laces "up". When snapping for kicks, the expectation is the snap should be accurate enough to the holder places the ball down and doesn't need to spin the football. The place kick is all about timing. Bad snap...and/or bad hold will screw up the timing and often the kick as well.

This got me thinking. Years ago I thought Ryan Longwell was a whining piss baby when he went through a bad streak of missing some kicks, and he was incredibly accurate and a fabulous kicker for the Packers.

The other day Crosby was obviously pissed at the snapper and/or the holder on both of his missed kicks.

If you rely on what college universities want out of their snappers, a strong part of the failure fell on the snapper on both of those kicks. Neither snap was set up for the holder to just place the ball down. One snap was really high and the holder tried spinning the ball, and the next was such a tranwreck that Crosby was kicking into the laces (unacceptable for a consistent kick).

I only really noticed this more, due to the conversations I had with that father.

When I watched the night game, I think it was the Rams, I noticed a perfect snap, laces out, no spinning on the hold. I shook my head and thought that was the perfect snap and timing.

I think the Packers just made a change on their snapper; don't be surprised if another one comes soon.

I don't think those misses are on Crosby

[Fritz]

Good post, Bretsky.

[George Cumby]

+1

[Joemailman]

That was odd Sunday. 2 consecutive kicks where I could clearly see the laces. Spinning the ball used to be an art, but I guess they feel having to do that messes with the timing of the kick. Bradley had an issue with the accuracy of his snaps, so I'm not surprised they canned him. Maybe they can find something mechanical Wirtel was doing wrong. He's been on the PS since 9/2 so they should have some idea of what he can do.

[RashanGary]

The more you know

[Bretsky]

Fifteen years ago every holder seemed to master the spin; now he's not supposed to have to. It's mind blowing, still, that some colleges give out full scholarships and the snappers all know each other and know who the best in college are. It was interesting in this kids case. Arkansas offered him, but he had to accept right there and cancel the rest of his visits (which included FSU and some other majors). A couple weeks later the Holy Grail of college football called him requesting he visit but he passed since he already was committed.

[Fritz]

This was what I did not know - I thought the holder was supposed to be well-versed in the art of spinning the ball so the laces face forward. Apparently, Bretsky has educated me on this matter - sounds like they expect the snapper to be able to snap so that the laces don't have to be spun, and spinning the laces must take extra time that fucks up the process.

So either Wirtel gets his shit together, or they cut him and find someone who can do that, or they change the process and Bojo learns to spin the laces. But that last option would be reconfiguring the whole thing, from snap to kick.

[texaspackerbacker]

I still doubt Wirtel is to blame and probably not Bojorquez either. Kickers have been kicking with the laces less than 100% perfect forever, and it usually doesn't make a difference. This is on Crosby, primarily anyway.

[Bretsky]

I still doubt Wirtel is to blame and probably not Bojorquez either. Kickers have been kicking with the laces less than 100% perfect forever, and it usually doesn't make a difference. This is on Crosby, primarily anyway.

Oh Tex, you have fallen behind the times. These kicks are all about timing and everybody doing their job right before the kicker touches the ball. That's not happening

[texaspackerbacker]

And you're saying it wasn't that way 10 or 20 or 30 years ago? If that much precision was required, there would be a lot more misses.

[Bretsky]

And you're saying it wasn't that way 10 or 20 or 30 years ago? If that much precision was required, there would be a lot more misses.

I think the expectations are higher and things are more specialized now. I would guess the overall percentages are higher now than 20 years ago and that is because things are more precise.

[texaspackerbacker]

Somebody ought to check on that. I would guess the percentages were about the same or higher back then - whenever then was.

[Bretsky]

Somebody ought to check on that. I would guess the percentages were about the same or higher back then - whenever then was.



HISTORICAL CHART showing Field Goal percentages over the years. Clearly, going way up and that could be because everybody is just doing their job better


https://www.footballperspective.com/field-goal-rates-throughout-nfl-history/

[Bretsky]

INFO FROM GOOD JS ARTICLE

Crosby has missed more field goals (six) in nine games this season then he missed in his previous 39 games dating to the 2018 season and on most of them, there was something wrong with the hold or snap

Mason Crosby deserves better,” said Drayton, referring to the Packers’ veteran kicker and all-time leading scorer. “Well, I owe him. We owe him and we're going to make it happen

You're looking for your long snapper to snap the ball with accuracy, location, so that's going to take velocity, the same revolutions to get to the holder in the same catch point (every time),” Drayton said. “Then it’s the holder’s job to put that ball down on a spot roughly the size of a dime, and maybe with very little movement, and then lean the ball in a manner that your kicker needs it.



As I had noted, it's not Money Mason


https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2021/11/12/packers-assistant-special-teams-woe-mason-crosby-deserves-better/6388947001/

[bobblehead]

Bretsky, that monstrosity of a first post had me ignore it for a few days, but I finally muddled through it. So basically you are saying we should cut Crosby's salary and spend a bit more on a snapper for him.

[Fritz]

INFO FROM GOOD JS ARTICLE

Crosby has missed more field goals (six) in nine games this season then he missed in his previous 39 games dating to the 2018 season and on most of them, there was something wrong with the hold or snap

Mason Crosby deserves better,” said Drayton, referring to the Packers’ veteran kicker and all-time leading scorer. “Well, I owe him. We owe him and we're going to make it happen

You're looking for your long snapper to snap the ball with accuracy, location, so that's going to take velocity, the same revolutions to get to the holder in the same catch point (every time),” Drayton said. “Then it’s the holder’s job to put that ball down on a spot roughly the size of a dime, and maybe with very little movement, and then lean the ball in a manner that your kicker needs it.



As I had noted, it's not Money Mason


https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2021/11/12/packers-assistant-special-teams-woe-mason-crosby-deserves-better/6388947001/

So is Bojorquez not even supposed to try to spin the laces any more? He usually says something to Crosby after a miss, and Crosby rolls his eyes, so I'm wondering who that's directed at.

[texaspackerbacker]

So now the people who were throwing the ST coach under the bus are quoting him hahahahaha.

I still think it's Crosby that has been mostly responsible for the misses. Why? Most of the other 31 teams, many with a lot lower regarded and lower paid kickers haven't had those problems, at least not near as often as Crosby. Does that mean they all have snappers and holders who do it right consistently, while ours don't? I doubt that.

This doesn't seem like the kind of thing that game conditions, rushers coming in, etc. would be much of a factor in. They ought to be able to figure it out in practice - maybe have Crosby and the PS kicker we have both using the same snapper and holder compete and see who messes up and who doesn't. I bet Crosby would come in second.

[Bretsky]

Bretsky, that monstrosity of a first post had me ignore it for a few days, but I finally muddled through it. So basically you are saying we should cut Crosby's salary and spend a bit more on a snapper for him.

:))))

You could interpret that way if you chose to :)

[Bretsky]

So is Bojorquez not even supposed to try to spin the laces any more? He usually says something to Crosby after a miss, and Crosby rolls his eyes, so I'm wondering who that's directed at.


He shouldn't have to spin the laces if the snap is where it's supposed to be and all three people do what they are supposed to

But if the snap is off he has to spin and get the ball should not be moving and in position before Crosby touches it

[Bretsky]

So now the people who were throwing the ST coach under the bus are quoting him hahahahaha.

I still think it's Crosby that has been mostly responsible for the misses. Why? Most of the other 31 teams, many with a lot lower regarded and lower paid kickers haven't had those problems, at least not near as often as Crosby. Does that mean they all have snappers and holders who do it right consistently, while ours don't? I doubt that.

This doesn't seem like the kind of thing that game conditions, rushers coming in, etc. would be much of a factor in. They ought to be able to figure it out in practice - maybe have Crosby and the PS kicker we have both using the same snapper and holder compete and see who messes up and who doesn't. I bet Crosby would come in second.

Please point out one time where I threw the ST coach under the bus; in fact I didn't even know his last name. But those who threw him under the bus I think were pointing out other things outside of the field goals, which are all timing between a few people and the blockers

I brought in statistical evidence to prove to you how differently this was from many many years ago after you doubted there has been changes in the effective rates over the last 20 plus years. You just refuse to acknowledge the changes that have been made over the years or any logic that goes along with the timing factors that go along with the process. It's like you are comparing the technology of a Chevy Citation with a Tesla and arguing they are the same.

I don't flame our ST coach for the Crosby misses. All three players just need to do their dam job, and if player one and two fail Crosby will as well. It's all timing. Crosby is a great kicker.

[texaspackerbacker]

Sorry if you were one of those hating on Drayton. A lot of people in here were when I pointed out that it was more about personnel, luck, and individuals screwing up than things to be blamed on the ST coach. Kicking - Crosby's missed kicks - was near the top of that list. The other things, the bad bounce - luck - and Amari dropping the ball - him screwing up - can also hardly be blamed on the ST coach. What the ST can affect - good coverage, lane integrity, etc. has been improved this year, or maybe that is just luck also.

As for those technological changes, I question whether there has been any in the field of snapping and holding, certainly not to a Chevy Citation to Tesla degree.

Crosby has been a great kicker. Whether he IS is open to question.

[RashanGary]

Crosby has been a good kicker. Tucker has been a great kicker.

[Bretsky]

Crosby has been a good kicker. Tucker has been a great kicker.



Tucker is amazing and the GOAT of all kickers IMO

[call_me_ishmael]

Crosby's gotta be pretty good though or they'd move on. He is old and expensive.

[Bretsky]

Crosby's gotta be pretty good though or they'd move on. He is old and expensive.


At worst, I think he's in the top half of kickers

Maybe the top third; but we got a reliable guy who fits in and we should keep him

[Fosco33]

Oops. Wrong thread

[Fosco33]

Take away one completion to MVS and ARod is 3-6 for 16yrds

[RashanGary]

Viniarari was a great kicker. Tucker is a great kicker. Crosby is a good kicker. But he’s been good in bad weather and had a lot of clutch kicks. I’m fine with Crosby for a couple more years.

[texaspackerbacker]

Vinatieri was was great only because of his longevity. I think we can get by with Crosby for this season, but I'd really like to see us get a better kicker next season.