Hypocrisy and Redemption

[AV David]

I admit to more faults than the average guy. But the one thing that drives me up the wall is sanctimonious hypocrisy. It has been my experience that if someone tells you more than 2 times that they are a really good christian, they probably are not. It has been my experience that when someone tells you how honest they are, more than twice, then you need to firm up the grip on your wallet. The same theory applies to santimonious condemnation of drinking drivers and people with other easily villified demons.

Let me say that it will forever be a stain on the reputation of the Ripon Police Department that I have never received a DWI citation. There were many times when I should have received one, had they been more vigilant. But that was 30 years ago. Now I have raised 2 daughters and I am more like Ward Cleaver. People can and do change all the time.

I would bet my house that many of the posters who go on and on and on about Koren Robinson have, on more than one occaision, driven with a BAC well above .08. I am sure that several have their own DWI citations. I am sure that some have cleaned up there act and should be applauded. I am sure they are proud of doing so. I am certain that some have had more than 1 DWI and learned their lesson later than some others, but they learned nonetheless.

How many of you would want to be banned from the job market for your transgressions, whether they be drinking related or anger related? The truth of the matter is that Koren Robinson is going to pay the price with a jail term in Washington or Minnesota or both. Competent lawyering can probably put it off until February, but he is going to do some time. (Unless the Judge in Washington is REALLY pissed.)

Some of you know that I live in suburban Minneapolis. I have always disliked the Vikings for the obvious reasons. (Denny Green, Randy Moss. Some of it is frustration from watching Dave Roller chase Fran Tarkenton around without success.) When KR came to the Vikings, I was skeptical. From a distance he looked kind of surly. But when I saw him on TV or at a publicity event, he has been a genuinely nice person. I found myself liking him in spite of his employer and in spite of his past transgressions. Some of you may know that he married this past June. You may not know that he voluntarily reentered treatment in May. I can only assume that he felt the demons returning and tried to stop them, but failed.

That should not operate as a defense. There is a price to pay and he will pay it and he SHOULD pay it. That price is $10 million in salary, time in jail, and being publicly ostracized by hypocrits who don't know him. He will be suspended without pay by the NFL.

But the piling on by hypocrits should NOT be part of the price. I wonder if Cliff Christl ever drove drunk. I wonder if he ever got caught. Newspaper writers have had a reputation as very hard drinkers in the past. So for those of you who enjoy piling unto Koren Robinson, take a look in your mirror before you become to sanctimonious. For those of you who are more pious than I, consider that redemption, in the religious sense, comes from admitting that you were wrong. After that, the pious must forgive in order to maintain their claim to piety.

I have never met Koren Robinson. But if I did, I would say "I hope you make it. Is there anything that I can do to help you make it?" I would not kick him in the groin. I would certainly not do it repeatedly. I would not do it just to make myself feel better about my own shortcomings.

[gbpackfan]

Christl is a crusty old man. I dont agree with what K-Rob did in Minnie, but I dont think his actions earned him a place in the life time unemployment line.

[packrulz]

Great post! I was remembering back to the days of Lombardi when the Packers were winning championships and people were tearing down the goal posts, those people were hammered! Wonder how many were driving home? And how people chuckle that Max McGee was hungover when he caught the TD pass in the Super Bowl. My point is, let's not be hypocrites, let the guy earn his living, he will do time, but it would be a shame to deny his talent because of a disease. GB will be good for him.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Christl is a crusty old man.

I disagree with Uncle Cliffy, but I suspect at least 35% of the Wisconsin population is in 100% agreement. Maybe much higher.

[FritzDontBlitz]

wow.

well said, av.

[Scott Campbell]

I don't think you have to be a sanctimonious hypocrite to pass on hiring an admitted alcoholic. Don't confuse being prudent with being judgemental.

If he applied to be a school bus driver, would you blame the bus company if they decided to hold out for a less risky candidate?

[Scott Campbell]

Dupe.

[retailguy]

Well. Well. Um.

I think that average america deals with this every day. Plenty of average folk get fired from their job after they've been featured outrunning the cops at over 100 mph, and I seriously doubt that they end up with another gig a week later.

Your rant, AV, has a lot of truth to it, but I just don't think you can compare KRob to an average guy. He's NOT. Nothing about the life of a 1st round draft pick is "average". He's got different expectations and different perceptions.

The guy has opportunities that I'll never have. He's squandered more money foolishly than most will ever see in their lives. Your post indicates you've got some knowledge of both mistake making, and alcohol abuse, as do I, and here is where we part company.

I think this situation is sad, but I have a tough time feeling sorry for KRob. Perhaps if America (the courts, the NFL, the coaches, the people in his life) would let the guy suffer the consequences of his actions INSTEAD of bailing him out because he can help a football team win games, he might actually learn something.

In this case, he just gets a $500,000 job instead of a $10,000,000 job, but it represents YET ANOTHER CHANCE. Will he learn something this time? I am not holding out much hope. $500k provides for a very soft landing in America. He needed to "bounce off the pavement this time".

[MJZiggy]

I don't think you have to be a sanctimonious hypocrite to pass on hiring an admitted alcoholic. Don't confuse being prudent with being judgemental.

If he applied to be a school bus driver, would you blame the bus company if they decided to hold out for a less risky candidate?

If we were hiring him as a limo driver, I'd agree with you, but we're hiring him to run down a football field with a bunch of guys and catch passes. You don't have to have a great driving record to do that.

[Scott Campbell]

If we were hiring him as a limo driver, I'd agree with you, but we're hiring him to run down a football field with a bunch of guys and catch passes. You don't have to have a great driving record to do that.


I don't care if he's applying to be a ditch digger. Alcoholic is not something a headhunter ever wants to see on a resume. It's a legitimate red flag. Passing on someone like that as many of us have suggested is purely a function of risk management. AVDavid suggests that our position is some kind of judgemental social commentary.

I disagree.

[packrulz]

If we were hiring him as a limo driver, I'd agree with you, but we're hiring him to run down a football field with a bunch of guys and catch passes. You don't have to have a great driving record to do that.


I don't care if he's applying to be a ditch digger. Alcoholic is not something a headhunter ever wants to see on a resume. It's a legitimate red flag. Passing on someone like that as many of us have suggested is purely a function of risk management. AVDavid suggests that our position is some kind of judgemental social commentary.

I disagree.

What about when Ron Wolf drafted Tyrone Williams after he fired a hundgun into a carload of people? Not a lot of press about that. Robinson has a problem but he should still be able to work and make a living. It will actually help him.

[FavreChild]

Heck yes, I have many friends with a DUI/DWI or more on their record. (Many friends who have had their brushes with the law in RIPON, in fact. A town I know intimately.) If your record's completely clean, it either means you just haven't gotten caught, or you've lived a pretty boring life.

I don't have a problem with KR's character flaw.

What I do have a problem with are the following two things:

1) People who have felt sorry for KR or excused his actions due to his "disease" of alcoholism. No need to condemn or "judge" him, but to coddle him is ridiculous. I wouldn't feel bad for any of my friends who might get arrested for drunk driving. I'd bail them out of jail and chew them out real good, but I sure as hell wouldn't feel sorry for them.

2) The signing of KR was like putting a band-aid on a battle axe wound. That was TT's big reaction to the humilation of last week??? This is no fault of Koren Robinson, but the timing of this signing could not have been worse.

Hope it works out, but expectations aren't too high.

[Scott Campbell]

What about when Ron Wolf drafted Tyrone Williams after he fired a hundgun into a carload of people? Not a lot of press about that.


That is only one incident. And it should have rightly affected the value/risk ratio when Wolf considered the pick. In that case I might lower his draft position, but not eliminate him from consideration entirely.

But KR has been through rehab twice, and now he gets the DUI. It's the continuous pattern of behavior that exponentially increases the risk.

So your comparison is somewhat apples to oranges.

[Packnut]

I would never hold the DUI against him cause 99.9% of us have driven after drinking, but I can honestly say without knowing anyone here that none of us have run from the law driving 100 mph. That was where he made the biggest of his mistakes.

As I've stated before, I have nothing against the signing EXCEPT the guy ain't gonna be around very long. He will have to do the time. Of course TT could have signed Ponder who's as good returning kicks as KR and at least HE would be around a few yrs.

But, anyone who look's for the pattern see's it. TT has to have HIS guys around him. (Manuel?) just to name 1............

[HarveyWallbangers]

It was a first offense for Tyrone Williams, and from what I remember he didn't fire at anybody. He fired at the trunk of a car, but I've never read where people's lives were seriously in danger.

This has gone from the merits of the Packers signing Robinson--which is fair enough. To try to make people feel bad because we didn't feel like the Packers should be the team to give Robinson his FOURTH (yes, his FOURTH) chance is ludicrous. Many of us that opposed this move might have been for it--if this was his first, second, maybe even third chance.

I hear SOD (Onterrio Smith) is looking for work after his yearlong suspension. Maybe we can sign him too. He's a pretty good RB.

[packrulz]

It was a first offense for Tyrone Williams, and from what I remember he didn't fire at anybody. He fired at the trunk of a car, but I've never read where people's lives were seriously in danger.

This has gone from the merits of the Packers signing Robinson--which is fair enough. To try to make people feel bad because we didn't feel like the Packers should be the team to give Robinson his FOURTH (yes, his FOURTH) chance is ludicrous. Many of us that opposed this move might have been for it--if this was his first, second, maybe even third chance.

I hear SOD (Onterrio Smith) is looking for work after his yearlong suspension. Maybe we can sign him too. He's a pretty good RB.

Yes, I suppose if he just hit the trunk and not the gas tank directly below it, it was a "safe" shooting.

[GrnBay007]

Excellent post AV David......and welcome to PackerRats!

[Scott Campbell]

I hear SOD (Onterrio Smith) is looking for work after his yearlong suspension. Maybe we can sign him too. He's a pretty good RB.


What is it with our backfield? We go from the Dump Truck to the Whiz Kid.

[potsdam_11]

but we're hiring him to run down a football field with a bunch of guys and catch passes. You don't have to have a great driving record to do that.

I thought we were hiring him to make our team competitive, win games, and appear weekly on TV as a role model for our children.

Those children will be able to see that you can break all the rules, break the law, and still make half a million dollars a year... Yippee

If, as reported, he comes to practice half in the bag, he is not reporting in Top Physical Condition, which is generally required to be competitive in the NFL... You cannot drink heavily on a daily basis and perform at a high level.

So yes, his drinking is still an issue....

I'd be curious to hear what the sober players think of all this....

He's here, .. he's a Packer..... he'd best show his gratitude.... everyday.

[Scott Campbell]

Excellent post AV David......and welcome to PackerRats!


Where are my manners? Welcome AV David!

And it is a thought provoking post. Lots of opinions.

[potsdam_11]

Excellent post AV David......and welcome to PackerRats!


Where are my manners? Welcome AV David!


Hell, you never welcomed me... Scotty..

Why start now.. :D :D :D :D

[Scott Campbell]

Hell, you never welcomed me... Scotty..



The hell I did not. You got welcomed with a patented Scott Campbell kick in the nuts.

:mrgreen:

Good you see you!

[potsdam_11]

Hell, you never welcomed me... Scotty..



The hell I did not. You got welcomed with a patented Scott Campbell kick in the nuts.

:mrgreen:

Good you see you!

Ahh, so that explains the look of anguish in my avatar...

Good you see you too.... :smile:

[HarveyWallbangers]

Yes, I suppose if he just hit the trunk and not the gas tank directly below it, it was a "safe" shooting.

What about the fact it was the first offense for Tyrone Williams, but Robinson has 3 strikes against him?

[MadtownPacker]

Yes, I suppose if he just hit the trunk and not the gas tank directly below it, it was a "safe" shooting.

What about the fact it was the first offense for Tyrone Williams, but Robinson has 3 strikes against him?In CA legal "strikes" are suupose to be violent felonies. Busting caps aint exactly non-violent. DUIs aint strikes.

He is on the team, this is surely his last chance. TT gave it to him, TT will look bad if he fails. I say we back the Pack to the fullest and if KR screws up everyone will turn their backs on him just like Rastak did. Its only human nature. But if he goes and returns one for a TD this weekend will anyone change their mind? :idea:

BTW - Great post AV Dave!! Welcome to PR.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

I agree with about every you said AV, Welcome. :cool:

[Tarlam!]

I hear SOD (Onterrio Smith) is looking for work after his yearlong suspension. Maybe we can sign him too. He's a pretty good RB.

Is he any good without steroids, though, Harv? Seems to me, nobody knows...

Like Sammie Sosa without a corked bat!

[woodbuck27]

It was a first offense for Tyrone Williams, and from what I remember he didn't fire at anybody. He fired at the trunk of a car, but I've never read where people's lives were seriously in danger.

This has gone from the merits of the Packers signing Robinson--which is fair enough. To try to make people feel bad because we didn't feel like the Packers should be the team to give Robinson his FOURTH (yes, his FOURTH) chance is ludicrous. Many of us that opposed this move might have been for it--if this was his first, second, maybe even third chance.

I hear SOD (Onterrio Smith) is looking for work after his yearlong suspension. Maybe we can sign him too. He's a pretty good RB.

Yaaa..but can TT then make a submission to change OUR Name to...

" the Green Bay Raiders "? We're BAD !!

TT should NOT have brought KR in for the simple reason that KR is sick.

If TT wanted to toss $$ at KR who am I to judge that. Noone here has "in fact" any proper right to judge Koren Robinson.

We have one right and that's to ensure he can't inflict pain on us as Packer fans ..on Green Bay or elsewhere while representing the Green Bay Packers.

There... is where all of this falls on Ted Thompsons head.,Will Koren Robinson re-offend isn't the question or concern.

The fact remains, that he may and that had to be covered by Ted Thompson in not employing Koren Robinson untill he was cleared via attending a voluntary... Alcohol Treatment Center

certainly not be brought to Green Bay to start off playing football. That is just plain n'simple WRONG. Is that confusing to some here?

Ted Thompson is . . .well Ted... for expecting KR to play football for us, as soon as tomorrow. Maybe next season? Not this.

Ted needed to support KR (the man - the person, not football player) only , to get proper help... and from there assess employing Koren Robinson as a football player as a secondary consideration.

This move by TT is absolutely support for what Ive been trying to explain to posters here about Ted Thompson.

Ted Thompson is unreal...a brick short of a load..flawed...out to lunch..not at all what you seem to beg to hope he is...

Come On !!

Ted Thompson demonstrates his strong ethical and moral apptitude here Packer fans. . .NOT !!!!!!

[Terry]

That was a very good post, AV David. Thank you.


It has been my experience that if someone tells you more than 2 times that they are a really good christian, they probably are not. It has been my experience that when someone tells you how honest they are, more than twice, then you need to firm up the grip on your wallet.

Well, you're in good company. Diagnosis from the standpoint of Traditional Chinese Acupuncture would say pretty much the same thing. Generally speaking, if people talk about a thing disproportionately, it often reflects a lacking of that quality in their hearts or spirits.

Regarding driving under the influence, you're absolutely right. I did it regularly in my 20's. Maybe I'm lucky I never had an accident. I did have one incident in which I nearly hit someone, and that changed me forever - not to stop drinking and driving, but to consciously compensate for drinking when driving by driving more slowly than I would sober, which I did forever after. In those days, DUI was not a big societal issue. Of course, in those days, no one wore seatbelts either.


Passing on someone like that as many of us have suggested is purely a function of risk management. AVDavid suggests that our position is some kind of judgemental social commentary.

I don't think AV David is talking about those concerned with risk management. I think Christl falls into the latter category of your comment.

[MadtownPacker]

Maybe I'm lucky I never had an accident. I did have one incident in which I nearly hit someone, and that changed me forever - not to stop drinking and driving, but to consciously compensate for drinking when driving by driving more slowly than I would sober, which I did forever after. In those days, DUI was not a big societal issue. Of course, in those days, no one wore seatbelts either.
Wait a minute!! You are saying that you still drink and drive but make up for it by driving slower?

[RashanGary]

I won't drive drunk but I do understand how fast alcohol is typically burned and my body is a little faster than the generally accepted number.

One drink = .02
One drink is burned off each hour.
.08 is the legal limit in wisconsin.

Lets say I drink 7 drinks over a 3 hour span.

I have .14 of alcohol in my body but I've also burned .06 over 3 hours so I should be right around .08. I will jump in the car and drive at that level. If the cops pull me over, I'll hope the don't notice I've been drinking if they do make me blow, I'll blow below a .08 anyway because my body is slightly faster than .02 per hour anyway. I hope that made sense. That's what I do.

One time, I was at a couple bars with a friend. WE were out from 10 till 2. I think I had 8 beers over 4 hours. My friend insisted I had 8 beers and was over the limit. I explained to him the equation that I learned at DARE and he was like whatever, your not driving. I was like "fuk U, I'm driving". Anyway.....8 * .02 = .16 but you then subtract .02 * 4 (hours) = .08.........So, .16 (consumed) - .08 (burned) = .08 (legal limit in wisconsin). I saw a cop outside the bar so I asked if I could blow a breathalizer to insure I was OK to drive. I was at .06. I was legal and I drove. I didn't really need to prove it to myself. For some reason I just trusted teh damn equation but now my frined belives in taht equation and uses it too. Just make sure you know how many shots are in each drink. If your getting doubles, don't make the mistake of calling it 1. I keep track of everything I put into my body anyway sot this works for me. If you just drink and don't count, it won't work...

like I said, over 3 hours you can drink 7 beers and who the hell needs mroe than that? If you're a small woman or have a bad liver it might not work for you, you might need to tweak it but for me it works masterfully.

[RashanGary]

Oh yeah, you can't drink 7 beers every 3 hours consecutively.....


6 hours = .12 burned
14 drinks = .28 consumed

If you drink at that rate for 6 hours strait you'll be .16 and way too damn drunk to drive and you'll never get away with it. I presume everyone understands the equation. It's fairly simple, but if you don't think you fully understand the concept then don't fuking try it.

[MadtownPacker]

Unless its different over there I dont think you even have to blow a .08 to get a DUI. If the officer does his sobriety test and decides you arent able to drive you can still get busted with a lesser amount of alchohol in your blood.

Is it the same in WI?

[Scott Campbell]

Oh yeah, you can't drink 7 beers every 3 hours consecutively.....


I tried in vain to disprove that many times in college.

[Terry]

Wait a minute!! You are saying that you still drink and drive but make up for it by driving slower?
No, lol. I was talking about my 20's and when I said forever after, I meant throughout my early 20's.

That was a very long time ago, believe me.

[Willard]

Unless its different over there I dont think you even have to blow a .08 to get a DUI. If the officer does his sobriety test and decides you arent able to drive you can still get busted with a lesser amount of alchohol in your blood.

Is it the same in WI?

I believe in most states if you are observed driving erratically, pulled over, and blow a .06 you can be arrested for unsafe driving on the basis of driving while impaired. It probably is less severe than a flat-out DUI/DWI conviction. Any attorneys care to comment?

[Rastak]

I won't drive drunk but I do understand how fast alcohol is typically burned and my body is a little faster than the generally accepted number.

One drink = .02
One drink is burned off each hour.
.08 is the legal limit in wisconsin.

Lets say I drink 7 drinks over a 3 hour span.

I have .14 of alcohol in my body but I've also burned .06 over 3 hours so I should be right around .08. I will jump in the car and drive at that level. If the cops pull me over, I'll hope the don't notice I've been drinking if they do make me blow, I'll blow below a .08 anyway because my body is slightly faster than .02 per hour anyway. I hope that made sense. That's what I do.

One time, I was at a couple bars with a friend. WE were out from 10 till 2. I think I had 8 beers over 4 hours. My friend insisted I had 8 beers and was over the limit. I explained to him the equation that I learned at DARE and he was like whatever, your not driving. I was like "fuk U, I'm driving". Anyway.....8 * .02 = .16 but you then subtract .02 * 4 (hours) = .08.........So, .16 (consumed) - .08 (burned) = .08 (legal limit in wisconsin). I saw a cop outside the bar so I asked if I could blow a breathalizer to insure I was OK to drive. I was at .06. I was legal and I drove. I didn't really need to prove it to myself. For some reason I just trusted teh damn equation but now my frined belives in taht equation and uses it too. Just make sure you know how many shots are in each drink. If your getting doubles, don't make the mistake of calling it 1. I keep track of everything I put into my body anyway sot this works for me. If you just drink and don't count, it won't work...

like I said, over 3 hours you can drink 7 beers and who the hell needs mroe than that? If you're a small woman or have a bad liver it might not work for you, you might need to tweak it but for me it works masterfully.


How does alchohol content figure into your equation? It varies from 3.2% to over 10.

[BallHawk]

I think he was referring just to microbrews, which are are in the middle single digits.

[Rastak]

I think he was referring just to microbrews, which are are in the middle single digits.

Some are some aren't. They all vary. Regular american pee-water beers are like 4.5....

[Scott Campbell]

Some are some aren't. They all vary. Regular american pee-water beers are like 4.5....

Not in my state.

[Rastak]

Some are some aren't. They all vary. Regular american pee-water beers are like 4.5....

Not in my state.


Are they 2% out there? Mandated by law?

[Scott Campbell]

3.2 in the grocery stores. You can get regular beer in the state liquor stores.

[Rastak]

3.2 in the grocery stores. You can get regular beer in the state liquor stores.


Same as Minnesota then.

[Scott Campbell]

3.2 in the grocery stores. You can get regular beer in the state liquor stores.


Same as Minnesota then.


Minnesota is a 3.2 state?????

Hard to believe.

[Rastak]

3.2 in the grocery stores. You can get regular beer in the state liquor stores.


Same as Minnesota then.


Minnesota is a 3.2 state?????

Hard to believe.


Yup. 3.2 in grocery stores and I believe at sporting events too. I think you need to have a permit to sell real beer at an event. I know they were selling real Summitt oatmeal stout and the Irish fair this summer, which was unusual.

[Kiwon]

I admit to more faults than the average guy. But the one thing that drives me up the wall is sanctimonious hypocrisy. It has been my experience that if someone tells you more than 2 times that they are a really good christian, they probably are not.

Welcome to PR, AV David.

My take: Hypocrisy is hypocrisy – whether sanctimonious or not. It’s wrong for you, me, Chris Christl, or anyone else.

I have been in and around Christians my whole life and never have I had one person come up to me and tell me what a good Christian he or she is. In fact, the opposite is true – they are humble and express regret that they have not been more faithful to the beliefs they espouse. That said, they don’t stop trying or make excuses for themselves. They hold themselves accountable.

We all should resent hypocrisy, but it’s not right to resent those with good intentions who are trying to better themselves and yet, still struggle from time to time. That doesn’t make them hypocrites, it’s just makes them human.