More Banjo Commanders Edition

[call_me_ishmael]

What a game.

[Guiness]

/thread

[texaspackerbacker]

Nobody wants to post here? Whatever. A LOT of really bad shit has happened in these three losses, and really the whole season, as even the wins were mostly nothing to brag about.

Rodgers certainly does not get a pass even from me, but all things considered, he has been far from the primary problem causing the funk the team is in. And as I have said, possibly the STUPIDEST thing in here as well as in several articles I've read from media pukes is shit from dumbasses and know-nothings trying to claim this and that is in Rodgers' head and/or talking about regret over retaining him. His passing has been a little bit off target - probably about normal for most QBs, but well below his normal high standard. He may be slightly less mobile, but that factor I think is overrated. He's been throwing a LOT of those annoying damn short mostly sideways passes - is that on him, panicking or whatever? Or is that on LaFleur for shoddy play calling? Or is it out of necessity because the line blocking has been so pathetic? Maybe all three, I don't know.

It seems like every game you see - not just Packer games, teams, even weak teams in most cases, have O Lines that block better than ours, both on pass plays and run plays. That has been especially true this year against our own D Line. Is our D that shitty? Or is it just that everybody else has a REAL O Line that can actually move people back a little bit or keep them from penetrating literally every damn pass play? I do blame our D for being weak, not so much because of personnel but more so because of coaching and scheme, but PRIMARILY it's because they are going up against O Lines that are not so pathetic. A related question is, do we just have lousy O Line personnel? Or does shoddy coaching have something to do with that aspect also? Other teams have a lot of injuries, and they still display way better O Line play than we do. Apparently Stenavich was considered a good O Line coach before being kicked upstairs to OC. Myself, though, I never thought the Packer O Line was as good as advertized - continually overrated, especially the "sacred cow" Bakhtiari, who so many worship. What I saw was that Rodgers virtually ALWAYS got more pressure than most QBs, extremely much more than Brady for example, even in the years when people praised our O Line so much.

So what's the difference this year? Well, maybe part of it is Rodgers getting older and less effective - both with his feet and arm. I think more of the reason, though, is the mediocre corps of receivers just not getting open. I have to admit, I didn't expect that. It may also be like the commentator said in the Redskins game (NOT a typo) when asked if Washington was likely to blitz. He basicaly said "hell no, they don't even need to blitz to get pressure; they can just drop 7 or 8 into coverage and still get plenty of pressure on the QB - THAT's on the O Line! I do think, though, if we had Watson healthy (and used right) or MVS in the past to present a true deep threat, things would be more open all the way around.

What's the solution? I don't know. I sure don't think it is to go "run first". I was hoping for big things running inside like last year when they moved Jenkins to Guard and having the same three interior O Linemen, but either those plays just weren't tried, or Washington's supposedly top quality D Line shut them down. Going forward, though, against other teams, that might work. Getting Watson back may help a lot. Supposedly Doubs is a deep threat also, but he seemingly hasn't been used that way. Maybe that is because of the pathetic pass blocking, but it also might be something that will work.

A lot of the problem has been circumstances - too many near misses - almost getting to the QB, opposing QBs who weren't supposed to be good pulling great plays out of their ass at crucial times, bad penalties, either rotten calls or not, etc. I always have said - and often been disagreed with, LUCK is a much bigger factor than many people think.

I still think the Packers will snap out of it, and it certainly ain't too late. The three other NFC seemingly top teams have been stumbling as bad or worse than the Packers. It's highly probable the Vikings will have their traditional fall to shittiness any time now (didn't they start one season 6-0 and then turn to shit?). I still think the Eagles are overrated and due for a fall. Ditto that even more so for the Giants. Don't bet against it still being Green Bay, Tampa, and the Rams, and oh yeah, my second favorite team, the Cowboys, there at the end of the season.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

The offense, for the most part, was (once again) more impotent than Tony ODay without Viagra. The insistence of the overpaid Italian special teams coach to allow Amari Rodgers to continue returning punts was mind-fucking, although, as head honcho, the Frog coulda go a long fucking time ago, get that bum outta there! Defense, especially in the clutch, couldn’t annihilate the poor man’s German Bert Favor. Butte sucked more than a gay guy in a brothel full of men.

My regrets are, I didn’t put more frogskins on the Redcoats and Panthers. I knew management was setting Steve Wilks up for failure with all the trades. I also knew Wilks’ remaining players were willing to go to Hades to overachieve for him - to fuck with management. Yet, I merely bet $20 on the Panthers. SMH.

[Jaire]

Lot of blame to go around. But Doubs had two key drops (I'm not counting the others against him). Jaire slipped on a play: the other one he "gave up" seemed to me more of a lucky pass by Heineke. I could only rewatch the highlights, but I saw some definite good things by this new O line-up; in game, I saw some bad play. Definitely like the potential of this new lineup even if Bakh doesn't make it back. If the oline gets fixed, AR will be fine.

Bad call by the ref there to.

I don't think we'll see another front four as good as Washington. Like others, I'm skeptical of Barry. Also, the first time I'm voicing my my dissatisfaction with the Quay pick (I'm still rooting for him, but an Edge would have been a much better pick. Also given our deep need, I thought Pickens was more pro-ready, and we needed a more immediate impact WR, who I thought Pickens or Pierce, but esp Pickens could be). Coaching staff is imo still most to blame.

[Joemailman]

Can't blame the defense much for this one. They gave up 23 points, and 3 of those were a field goal on a drive that started at the Packers 17 yard line. That field goal is on the special teams. And the defense scored a touchdown. So the defense gave up a net of 13 points. This would have been a win with any kind of competence by the offense.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Nobody wants to post here? Whatever. A LOT of really bad shit has happened in these three losses, and really the whole season, as even the wins were mostly nothing to brag about.

Rodgers certainly does not get a pass even from me, but all things considered, he has been far from the primary problem causing the funk the team is in. And as I have said, possibly the STUPIDEST thing in here as well as in several articles I've read from media pukes is shit from dumbasses and know-nothings trying to claim this and that is in Rodgers' head and/or talking about regret over retaining him. His passing has been a little bit off target - probably about normal for most QBs, but well below his normal high standard. He may be slightly less mobile, but that factor I think is overrated. He's been throwing a LOT of those annoying damn short mostly sideways passes - is that on him, panicking or whatever? Or is that on LaFleur for shoddy play calling? Or is it out of necessity because the line blocking has been so pathetic? Maybe all three, I don't know.

It seems like every game you see - not just Packer games, teams, even weak teams in most cases, have O Lines that block better than ours, both on pass plays and run plays. That has been especially true this year against our own D Line. Is our D that shitty? Or is it just that everybody else has a REAL O Line that can actually move people back a little bit or keep them from penetrating literally every damn pass play? I do blame our D for being weak, not so much because of personnel but more so because of coaching and scheme, but PRIMARILY it's because they are going up against O Lines that are not so pathetic. A related question is, do we just have lousy O Line personnel? Or does shoddy coaching have something to do with that aspect also? Other teams have a lot of injuries, and they still display way better O Line play than we do. Apparently Stenavich was considered a good O Line coach before being kicked upstairs to OC. Myself, though, I never thought the Packer O Line was as good as advertized - continually overrated, especially the "sacred cow" Bakhtiari, who so many worship. What I saw was that Rodgers virtually ALWAYS got more pressure than most QBs, extremely much more than Brady for example, even in the years when people praised our O Line so much.

So what's the difference this year? Well, maybe part of it is Rodgers getting older and less effective - both with his feet and arm. I think more of the reason, though, is the mediocre corps of receivers just not getting open. I have to admit, I didn't expect that. It may also be like the commentator said in the Redskins game (NOT a typo) when asked if Washington was likely to blitz. He basicaly said "hell no, they don't even need to blitz to get pressure; they can just drop 7 or 8 into coverage and still get plenty of pressure on the QB - THAT's on the O Line! I do think, though, if we had Watson healthy (and used right) or MVS in the past to present a true deep threat, things would be more open all the way around.

What's the solution? I don't know. I sure don't think it is to go "run first". I was hoping for big things running inside like last year when they moved Jenkins to Guard and having the same three interior O Linemen, but either those plays just weren't tried, or Washington's supposedly top quality D Line shut them down. Going forward, though, against other teams, that might work. Getting Watson back may help a lot. Supposedly Doubs is a deep threat also, but he seemingly hasn't been used that way. Maybe that is because of the pathetic pass blocking, but it also might be something that will work.

A lot of the problem has been circumstances - too many near misses - almost getting to the QB, opposing QBs who weren't supposed to be good pulling great plays out of their ass at crucial times, bad penalties, either rotten calls or not, etc. I always have said - and often been disagreed with, LUCK is a much bigger factor than many people think.

I still think the Packers will snap out of it, and it certainly ain't too late. The three other NFC seemingly top teams have been stumbling as bad or worse than the Packers. It's highly probable the Vikings will have their traditional fall to shittiness any time now (didn't they start one season 6-0 and then turn to shit?). I still think the Eagles are overrated and due for a fall. Ditto that even more so for the Giants. Don't bet against it still being Green Bay, Tampa, and the Rams, and oh yeah, my second favorite team, the Cowboys, there at the end of the season.

Too long; didn’t read. But about to go shore fishing (can’t afford a boat at $7.25/hr) - to clear mind of yesterday’s clusterfuck. Will read while I wait for the fish to bite. :)

[beveaux1]

Oh, how the mighty have fallen. We played the Washington Commanders, a bottom five team, and were able to score 14 offensive points. Playing one of the weakest defenses in the league, we managed 47 offensive plays, a ridiculously low amount. Contributing was our ineffectiveness on 3rd and 4th down, 0-7 combined. Six passes were dropped. Conservatively, five passes were poorly thrown. They were thrown bad enough to result in an incompletion. One pass was thrown away. Numerous throws were caught but thrown so poorly they prevented picking up first downs or sometimes, any yardage at all.

[beveaux1]

We passed 35 times and ran the ball 12 times, although, admittedly, nearly every pass was thrown from 3 yards behind the line of scrimmage to 5 yards past the line of scrimmage and could be considered an extended running play. Our OL gave up no sacks for the first time this year, but even that comes with a caveat. Almost every pass play left Rodgers’ hand in less than 2 seconds, allowing little time for a successful pass rush. Unfortunately, it also allowed little chance for a successful play.

[beveaux1]

Our running game pounded the Commanders for 3.25 yards per attempt proving how well our revamped line played. We almost picked up 200 yards in the air on our 35 attempts, if only Rodgers had hit a wide open Runyon on the sidelines on the last play and Runyon had been able to advance it a few more yards, and if it wouldn’t have been a forward pass instead of a lateral. Take away the 50 yards we gained on the last two Hail Mary plays and our total would have been a more realistic 145 yards on 33 passes. Less than 5 yards per pass attempt. Sounds about right. Pitiful doesn’t begin to describe this offense.

[beveaux1]

Our defense, although not great, has not been the problem. They haven't had a game where they've given up more than 21 points if you take away muffed punts, pick sixes, and blocked kicks for TDs. They've also been on the field constantly since our offense never moves the ball. A better D coordinator couldn't have produced any more wins for this team but I'm not advocating keeping this DC. We need electricity and not passivity. I'm not sure this DC can do that.

[beveaux1]

Heck, I'm not sure our team can do electricity. We have one player on offense with juice. On defense, we might have a few players, but the scheme keeps them from shining.

[beveaux1]

I've convinced myself that we have a coaching problem. We lost Turner and Kelly from last year on the OL and have replaced them with surgically repaired Bakh and Jenkins and rookie Tom. How can the OL fall apart with that change? Was Turner the glue that kept them together? I can't believe that.

[beveaux1]

I forgot about Patrick. He played center for a lot of games last year but wasn't he the weak link on the line? Weren't we better with Myers?

[beveaux1]

I don't think Rodgers is the problem, but I do think that his play is much worse than last year. His long ball skill is declining, although he made a couple of vintage Rodgers throws...to Jones on the TD and to Rodgers on the deep ball. He also missed throws that he usually never misses. Flat passes were constantly being overthrown, thrown wide, thrown low, giving his receivers little chance to make a play even when they make the catch. His legs may be the same, but he doesn't seem to want to move. He's been very stationary this year. He's been nothing but a pocket passer and without the pocket caused by poor OL play, he's been very mediocre. Maybe it's the finger, but it's been this way since the beginning of the season when the finger wasn't an issue.

[beveaux1]

I expected our offense to suffer with the loss of Adams and MVS. Like most, including MLF and Gute, I felt we would need a short growing period to learn the new WRs and to adapt to being a more heavily run-oriented team. I felt that Rodgers and MLF could adjust to the more limited personnel and design an offense to fit them. i don't think that's happening and I'm not sure it's going to happen. Decisions on our OL like playing Jenkins at RT after coming back in 8 months from ACL surgery and then continuing to play him there when it was obvious that he couldn't move laterally very well yet makes me question the coaching staff. Continuing to play Newman when it's obvious he's getting beat regularly. Throwing the same wide screens as our sole passing game for seven consecutive games with decreasing effectiveness again makes me question our coaching staff. Not sticking with the running game, even though we're averaging 4.8 yards a carry makes me question our coaching staff.

[call_me_ishmael]

I've convinced myself that we have a coaching problem. We lost Turner and Kelly from last year on the OL and have replaced them with surgically repaired Bakh and Jenkins and rookie Tom. How can the OL fall apart with that change? Was Turner the glue that kept them together? I can't believe that.

I tend to agree. Turner hasn't even cracked the starting lineup in Denver, either, so not like he's setting the world on fire. It's very, very odd.

[beveaux1]

This is not a contending team. The defense is above-average but soft. The offense is a train wreck and I have no confidence they know how to fix it. We have a hard time getting one first down, let alone stringing together 5 or 6 in a successful drive. We were given 3 penalties on our last TD drive or we wouldn't have scored. The special teams might be better than last year but that's a pretty low bar. There's nothing that this team has shown me that says we're getting better. The same problems occur every week and every week they say they're going to fix them. We might get lucky and have a fortunate penalty called that gives us a lucky win, but we haven't shown that we can win without that.

[King Friday]

Not sure how good a coach MiLF is at this point. Also not sure how good a GM Gute is. Both have accomplished a few things that are noteworthy, but neither has proven themselves in a crucible. That will change as this year goes on.

Talent wins in this league. On offense, we have one of the worst rosters in the league. Rodgers is a HOFer, but he’s clearly in the twilight and needs better weapons. Our TEs are shit. Our OL is mediocre. Our top WR would not be a top receiver in most other teams…and whoever is our second best WR is no better than a third string guy anywhere else. The only true playmaker on the team is Jones, but he is rarely featured as he should be.

That said, coaching has been a clusterfuck this season. Our DC is bad. The new ST coach isn’t much better. The few talented coaches we had left, and MiLF is out of his league right now. Prepare to lose by 30 to Buffalo.

[texaspackerbacker]

Lot of blame to go around. But Doubs had two key drops (I'm not counting the others against him). Jaire slipped on a play: the other one he "gave up" seemed to me more of a lucky pass by Heineke. I could only rewatch the highlights, but I saw some definite good things by this new O line-up; in game, I saw some bad play. Definitely like the potential of this new lineup even if Bakh doesn't make it back. If the oline gets fixed, AR will be fine.

Bad call by the ref there to.

I don't think we'll see another front four as good as Washington. Like others, I'm skeptical of Barry. Also, the first time I'm voicing my my dissatisfaction with the Quay pick (I'm still rooting for him, but an Edge would have been a much better pick. Also given our deep need, I thought Pickens was more pro-ready, and we needed a more immediate impact WR, who I thought Pickens or Pierce, but esp Pickens could be). Coaching staff is imo still most to blame.

A good deal of sanity here, especially compared to the idiotic shit some have posted in other threads. Also, as a couple people have said, this rejiggered O Line has a pretty good chance to do the job.

Just the same, we've made a mediocre team and two downright bad ones look like world beaters. Things can change crazy quick in the NFL, and they can change back just as quick.

[Jaire]

It takes a hard think to see what the problem is, but it's mainly two:

1) What it's not: it's not the players. We've had some injuries esp at WR. The young guys are being asked to do too much (given their talent and experience).

2) That brings me to the first problem: while Gute did a decent job in FA, he's done bad drafting. I said I wouldn't judge him til after five years, and I've seen enough to see it's been sub par. He got himself in a fix because of his ego and messing up the 2020 draft which was as obvious a draft as ever as far as what must be done. But this year's draft, he got cute, abandoned the team's long time draft philosophy (and in fact you see it throughout the 2020 and 2021 draft as well). It's beyond obvious, he didn't prioritize draft premiums and squandered the draft capital on needs he created years ago and on a bunch of high end development players when we really need help now, on positions of luxury when we desperately need key positions immediately. But look back at his drafting: most his players are gone. Not good talent evaluation and bad decision making. But the 2020 draft will be his tombstone epitaph, in which position MET huge need: and they are relying on sheer luck to fix the line. That's on Gute.

3) The coaching staff is not getting the most out of the players and not putting them in position to succeed and above all failing to teach basic technique. This is most apparent on Oline, and I've never seen such bad play from the line, which Wahle (who's much more insightful here than I) has also detailed. You also see it from many former Packer line men on twitter. I have some confidence they can turn it around, but they are making Rodgers get the ball out in 1.5 seconds to make this line "look good." It's not. And that's putting unrealistic load on an aging AR. Add SIX drops (of safely placed uncontested balls), and bad run blocking. It's a long day. We'll see if they can fix it, but I think Gute has put this coaching staff in a tough spot by botching the drafts: not just bad talent evaluations, but bad use of draft premium and draft capital.

[MadScientist]

In the case of the receiving corpse, it is the players. Their #1 is a marginal #2 at best anywhere else. The rest are either rookies who aren't ready yet or roster filler vets who would only be worth something if there was a stud or two drawing a lot of attention. The TE's would be adequate as #3 TE's, so no help their either. A lot of the problems on offense stands starts with this. The receivers can't beat man coverage leaving teams to just rush 4 and cover until Rodgers is sacked, or bring pressure with the expectation that the rest of the defense can cover.

Gute's drafts have been ok on DB's and LB's, but a complete train wreck on offense, especially skill positions. He waited way to long to draft a receiver, and then picked one who wasn't good. He's picked slow TE's, that may have worked out in the 80's, but not in this era. You'd think the Packers would have learned from Dick-Rod, but Gute went ahead and picked Sternberger. The OLine has less depth than a Kardashian interview, so the injuries are magnified. It also feels like Gute is drafting for the current holes instead of the holes that will be coming up, so he's always behind the curve.

Finally Rodgers isn't playing well. Nowhere near what he is getting paid for. How much of the decline is his age vs poor supporting cast, vs how bad is thumb is injured is yet to be determined.

Added up, it's a shitshow.

[Jaire]

They've drafted first round defense for eleven years (and most of round two as well) and brought in a lot of high dollar FA as well (and i am not counting Love). There's no excuse for the defense not being a top squad and that's on coaching.

But the absolute disaster is utterly neglecting the offense. He put off WR way too many years: it's like he deliberately passed on opportunities to sabotage AR. He gets a ransom for Davante, and doesn't address the line, and blows a pick on a futures player in Watson. His drafting is unforgiveable imo. I don't know of a premier QB who has been treated this bad in thirty years. I was just looking at some of the WRs Gute passed on. Other premier QBs have premier weapons. The neglect is unacceptable: add in Oline neglect: fireable. He's not pretending to contend, or doesn't know what he's doing. And far too many of his picks are horrible player assessments, half the folks on this board know better.

[MadScientist]

They've drafted first round defense for eleven years (and most of round two as well) and brought in a lot of high dollar FA as well (and i am not counting Love). There's no excuse for the defense not being a top squad and that's on coaching.

But the absolute disaster is utterly neglecting the offense. He put off WR way too many years: it's like he deliberately passed on opportunities to sabotage AR. He gets a ransom for Davante, and doesn't address the line, and blows a pick on a futures player in Watson. His drafting is unforgiveable imo. I don't know of a premier QB who has been treated this bad in thirty years. I was just looking at some of the WRs Gute passed on. Other premier QBs have premier weapons. The neglect is unacceptable: add in Oline neglect: fireable. He's not pretending to contend, or doesn't know what he's doing. And far too many of his picks are horrible player assessments, half the folks on this board know better.

I fully agree on the neglect of offense. Gute hasn't done a good job on the draft. However picking a future player in the draft is what should be done. It take time for players to develop, so you should be drafting for holes that are going to show up a year or two down the road. Gute failed to pick up receivers in time to plug the impending hole. And what picks he made were for players who weren't good enough (Amari, Sternberger and Degaura), and it should have been obvious that they weren't going to be all that good. Gute hasn't ignored the OLine like the rest of the offense, he just hasn't picked players who are good enough. Time to bring in someone who can do a better job.

[Guiness]

Ok, what about the flag that was picked up on Watkins? I thought he gave up on that ball and if he hadn't the flag may not have been picked up. I actually expected it to be announced after the game that he had a hammy.

[bobblehead]

I read a lot of finger pointing, but this fall down to one major issue. Health. Clearly Jenkins and Bak aren't right. So the bookends aren't performing. Rodgers thumb isn't helping matters. And finally our veteran WR can't stay on the field....oh, and the guy we gave up significant draft capital to get has barely played either.

Our D isn't playing well? Try spending the entire game on the field because our offense and ST don't get you off the field and see if you can garner a game with effectively giving up 13 points (I think Joe summed it up....gave up 23....3 were on Amari. Scored 7. Net effect was giving up 13...all while being stuck on the field constantly).

[bobblehead]

Ok, what about the flag that was picked up on Watkins? I thought he gave up on that ball and if he hadn't the flag may not have been picked up. I actually expected it to be announced after the game that he had a hammy.

Flags have been another issue. Gary is constantly held with no flags. Our WR are being grabbed and tugged on constantly. Then we see ticky tack flags that could be thrown on every single play killing drives on us. That flag on Watkins could have been defensive holding automatic first down even if you called it uncatchable. He was being held the entire route.

[beveaux1]

The biggest question I have about our draft classes are why we keep a dud for so long. Look at the list of losers that stayed on our team for multiple years after the luster wore off: King, Montravious Adams, Josh Jackson, Burks, Sternberger, Keke, Hanson, Amari Rodgers.

Savage is a Tier D starter that I'm convinced only plays because he was a first rounder. Clear the chaff when you determine that they don't deserve a roster spot and maybe you end up with more Lazards or Tonyans.

[Guiness]

nt