Official Training Camp Thread

[Joemailman]

Packers have set dates, but not times of 13 practices open to public. August 16 & 17 are joint practices with Patriots.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FyxQuyQWIAIKulA?format=jpg&name=900x900

[Anti-Polar Bear]

X

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Since this is the Summer of Jordan Love, the Great Arm of Butte, ironically, will be donning the 10 Green and Mustard Yellow and hosting a “Love-in” on July 29 at Lambeau Field, starting at 2 PM.

The Great Arm of Butte - featuring Harrell (guitar), Harlan (drums), Rastak (bass), and the burger flipping loser, Tank Elf Duke (keyboards, lead vocalist) - will be debuting our masterpiece, “A (Jordan) Love Song for Aaron Rodgers.”

Check out the lyrics:

Overhead the albatross
Hangs motionless upon the air
And deep beneath the rolling waves
In labyrinths of coral caves
The echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand
And everything is green and [mustard yellow]

(Actually, that’s Mailman’s favorite redcoat, the redcoat who named himself after two Black blues musicians, Pink Anderson and Floyd Council.)

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Why the fuck won’t the Packers volunteer for Hard Knocks?

The Packers appearing on the show would enhance cold, dark and dull Green Bay economically and expose the city to the nation. The team owe it to the city to appear on the show - the city paid for the Lambeau Field renovation.

[Joemailman]

They are not eligible until they miss the playoffs 2 years in a row.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

They are not eligible until they miss the playoffs 2 years in a row.

Teams can volunteer for the show, as the Kittens did last season and the Sheepfuckers and Whale Vagina Chargers did two years ago.

If no team signs up, eligibility then comes into play and NFL can force an eligible team to appear on the show. This season’s eligible teams are: Mobsters of the Midway, Sodom and Gomorrah Sinners and Gotham City Jesters, and Redcoats.

The Packers should sign up!

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Butte and the Gotham City Jesters (in honor of the downtrodden comedian, Arthur Fleck) will be featured on Hard Knocks.

[run pMc]

I think most teams would prefer to keep the cameras and distractions out of camp. Also keeps what the front office does a secret, although I suspect most are similar.
It's a young team - if I were MLF, I wouldn't want all that chaos around camp and the players. Media coverage will be crazy enough with JLove replacing Rodgers.

Jaire would probably be hilarious miked up though.

[Joemailman]

Packers will practice 1 week from today.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F1bIXLXXwAE1czr?format=jpg&name=large

[Fritz]

Supposedly Reed has agreed to terms, too. Is that all of them, or is Tucker Kraft unsigned? Haven't been paying too much attention.

[run pMc]

All are signed.

[MadScientist]

Pup:
Gary
Stokes
Hanson
Cotton

NFI:
DuBose
McDonald

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2023/07/21/packers-rashan-gary-eric-stokes-start-training-camp-on-pup-list/
DuBose missed all of the OTA's so he's way behind. I'm guessing if he heals, he's practice squad at best. If he doesn't heal by the end of camp, he's gone with no settlement since its a non-football injury.

[Fritz]

Pup:
Gary
Stokes
Hanson
Cotton

NFI:
DuBose
McDonald

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2023/07/21/packers-rashan-gary-eric-stokes-start-training-camp-on-pup-list/
DuBose missed all of the OTA's so he's way behind. I'm guessing if he heals, he's practice squad at best. If he doesn't heal by the end of camp, he's gone with no settlement since its a non-football injury.

Yes, DuBose has a lot of catching up to do, so it's a good guess that he might end up on the practice squad this year. If he can show some special teams talent, he might make the roster by the end of the year, given injuries and all.

I'm glad the Packers are careful with injuries - what's the point in hurrying Gary or Stokes back? I do feel badly for the young guys like Cotton, not even drafted and only a slim shot anyway, and then he's hurt. Even if say a fifth round pick gets hurt, he's likely to get more consideration and rope than an undrafted guy. They probably fight like hell to get on the field, no matter how hurt they are.

[MadScientist]

Jake Hanson passed his physical and has been activated from the PUP.
https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2023/07/23/packers-activate-ol-jake-hanson-off-pup-list/?itm_source=parsely-api
At least there is some positive news on the injury front, before the inevitable when practices start.

[Joemailman]

Jake Hanson passed his physical and has been activated from the PUP.
https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2023/07/23/packers-activate-ol-jake-hanson-off-pup-list/?itm_source=parsely-api
At least there is some positive news on the injury front, before the inevitable when practices start.

Jake Hanson being out for the year would have been better injury news.

[MadScientist]

Jake Hanson being out for the year would have been better injury news.

Somebody has to play in the 4th quarter of preseason games.

[run pMc]

Who wins the starting RT spot?
Who are the backup OL?

Does Grant Dubose make the roster, or does Malik Heath take his spot?
Have the Year 2 WRs made a jump? Can they beat press man coverage?

Who makes the roster at safety?

Can the DL improve after giving up 5 ypc against the run?

Anders Carlson has a strong leg, but can he kick a FG with accuracy?

With such a young roster, how much does MLF play his starters in the preseason?

[Joemailman]

I'm hoping Yosh and Runyan show enough that they can keep Tom as the backup at all positions.

I'm hoping Sean Rhyan can break the 3rd round pick jinx. If the 2nd year OL guys (Tom, Jones, Rhyan, Walker) can progress, Packers will have excellent depth on the OL

[MadScientist]

Packers working out another QB:
https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2023/07/25/packers-host-workout-for-former-colts-qb-jacob-eason/

I know there some due diligence going on here, but with signing Mr. McGough and now working out another, I have to think the Packers aren't satisfied with their backup QB position.

[bobblehead]

Since this is the Summer of Jordan Love, the Great Arm of Butte, ironically, will be donning the 10 Green and Mustard Yellow and hosting a “Love-in” on July 29 at Lambeau Field, starting at 2 PM.

The Great Arm of Butte - featuring Harrell (guitar), Harlan (drums), Rastak (bass), and the burger flipping loser, Tank Elf Duke (keyboards, lead vocalist) - will be debuting our masterpiece, “A (Jordan) Love Song for Aaron Rodgers.”

Check out the lyrics:

Overhead the albatross
Hangs motionless upon the air
And deep beneath the rolling waves
In labyrinths of coral caves
The echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand
And everything is green and [mustard yellow]

(Actually, that’s Mailman’s favorite redcoat, the redcoat who named himself after two Black blues musicians, Pink Anderson and Floyd Council.)

Seriously, NO COWBELL!! Come on coach, put me in.

[run pMc]

Packers working out another QB:
https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2023/07/25/packers-host-workout-for-former-colts-qb-jacob-eason/

I know there some due diligence going on here, but with signing Mr. McGough and now working out another, I have to think the Packers aren't satisfied with their backup QB position.

Danny Etling and Sean Clifford don't give me an abundance of confidence. If I were Gute, I'd at least bring in camp arms too. You might find someone who clicks with the system.

They did sign a WR who worked out for them; probably because Dubose and another WR were nicked up and they need players to throw to.

[texaspackerbacker]

I'd be just about as confident with Clifford or even Etling lining up at QB as with Love at this point. I wish they'd keep Etling around as a wildcat guy or like that. Ideally, Love will justify some confidence too, but it's far from proven at this point.

Hopefully, the Packers are so loaded everywhere else that whoever is the QB can get by with being on the mediocre side of things.

[MadScientist]

Caleb Jones on the non-football illness list:
https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2023/07/26/packers-place-ot-caleb-jones-on-non-football-illness-list/
This begs the question as to what is a football illness.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Hopefully, the Packers are so loaded everywhere else that whoever is the QB can get by with being on the mediocre side of things.

Trent Dilfer winning a Superbowl only happens once a century. Come to think of it, I can't think of any teams advancing in playoffs in recent years without an elite QB. I guess SF won some games with a backup. Seems like NFL becomes more of a QB-centric league every year.

[call_me_ishmael]

The best time of the year. I LOVE trainign camp. I can't wait to see what JLove can do. I can't wait to see what Jerome Dubbs can do. He is going to be a playa.

[sharpe1027]

Caleb Jones on the non-football illness list:
https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2023/07/26/packers-place-ot-caleb-jones-on-non-football-illness-list/
This begs the question as to what is a football illness.

Not having enough air in the ball.

[jklowan]

Trent Dilfer 2000
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trent_Dilfer)Joe Flacco 2012 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Flacco)


Nick Fole (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Foles)s in 2017

more common than we think I'd also include eli manning in 2007 & 2011 and maybe Brad Johnson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Johnson_(American_football)) in 2002

[Harlan Huckleby]

ya, guess those JAGs count. Except Nick Foles had a hot streak the year Eagles won.

[run pMc]

ya, guess those JAGs count. Except Nick Foles had a hot streak the year Eagles won.

also depends on what you mean by advancing in the playoffs. You mean to the SB or just the CC? Case Keenum has been a playoff winning QB. Brock Purdy. Kerry Collins, Rich Gannon, and Brad Johnson have made it to the Super Bowl. Donovan McNabb was good for a time I guess. Matt Stafford too. You can get there (or advance to a point) but you have to have something else that is elite - like a top 3 defense or offensive playmakers, or be on an extreme hot streak, but it's rare. The way the NFL is now, you need a very good offense and that generally means you have at least a good QB.

[Fritz]

So far the early story of camp seems to be that Zach Tom is beating out Yosh Nijman for the right tackle job. Nijman's been subbing in for Bakhtieri on the left side.

Hmmmm. Could it be the Packers are going to hang on to Bakh for training camp, then ship him off to, say, the New York Jets, and make Nijman the left tackle??

Glad to see Tariq Carpenter is back at practice, too. He's going to be a better inside linebacker than he was a safety.

Also, I see the Packers are giving Van Mess the Iowa treatment - first Hollins starts ahead of him, then the next day it's Engabare starting ahead of him.

[SudsMcBucky]

So far the early story of camp seems to be that Zach Tom is beating out Yosh Nijman for the right tackle job. Nijman's been subbing in for Bakhtieri on the left side.

Hmmmm. Could it be the Packers are going to hang on to Bakh for training camp, then ship him off to, say, the New York Jets, and make Nijman the left tackle??

Glad to see Tariq Carpenter is back at practice, too. He's going to be a better inside linebacker than he was a safety.

Also, I see the Packers are giving Van Mess the Iowa treatment - first Hollins starts ahead of him, then the next day it's Engabare starting ahead of him.

Due to cap implications, they ain't getting rid of Bahk this year.

[run pMc]

Due to cap implications, they ain't getting rid of Bahk this year.

I don't think it's a consideration until they approach the trade deadline or in the offseason. If they trade him next year the new team pays Bahk a bargain & GB gets some cap relief.
Personally I'd keep him at least for this year. Having a solid OL and running game will make a new QB's job easier.

The OL also gets hit by injuries every year, so I wouldn't trade Njiman either.
If he gets a fat contract offer from someone else next year GB gets a nice comp pick. Main thing is to keep developing Tom and find the next long term OT to bookend with him.
Bakhtiari played a lot better in the latter half of last season, but his medicals make me wonder how much longer he can play.

[Harlan Huckleby]

also depends on what you mean by advancing in the playoffs. You mean to the SB or just the CC? Case Keenum has been a playoff winning QB. Brock Purdy. Kerry Collins, Rich Gannon, and Brad Johnson have made it to the Super Bowl. Donovan McNabb was good for a time I guess. Matt Stafford too. You can get there (or advance to a point) but you have to have something else that is elite - like a top 3 defense or offensive playmakers, or be on an extreme hot streak, but it's rare. The way the NFL is now, you need a very good offense and that generally means you have at least a good QB.

I consider making the Championship game as elite. The Fuck Ya Four.

In my fracturing memory, the Championship game routinely features top 10 QBs, or sometimes better.

[Fritz]

Due to cap implications, they ain't getting rid of Bahk this year.

I have not been keeping up very well with that side of things, Suds. What's the cap implication if they wanted to trade him this season?

[bobblehead]

I'm hoping Yosh and Runyan show enough that they can keep Tom as the backup at all positions.

I'm hoping Sean Rhyan can break the 3rd round pick jinx. If the 2nd year OL guys (Tom, Jones, Rhyan, Walker) can progress, Packers will have excellent depth on the OL

Tom can not be kept on the bench. His is unquestionably one of the top 5 (3). For my money I try to get a 2nd for Bak and start Yosh at LT, Tom at RT. Its a downgrade, but if Yosh doesn't take that final step you have draft capital to get your LT of the future instead of desperately trying to rework Bak's deal in the offseason. You also get younger either way.

I also don't want to piss off a young guy who has earned a starting spot. Not unless you have had some real serious conversations with him and you are positive he sees the big picture.

[bobblehead]

So far the early story of camp seems to be that Zach Tom is beating out Yosh Nijman for the right tackle job. Nijman's been subbing in for Bakhtieri on the left side.

Hmmmm. Could it be the Packers are going to hang on to Bakh for training camp, then ship him off to, say, the New York Jets, and make Nijman the left tackle??

Glad to see Tariq Carpenter is back at practice, too. He's going to be a better inside linebacker than he was a safety.

Also, I see the Packers are giving Van Mess the Iowa treatment - first Hollins starts ahead of him, then the next day it's Engabare starting ahead of him.

Yea, I'm not the only one with that thought I see. There are many teams that would give a 2nd for Bak. Some might give a first (looking at you chefs).

[bobblehead]

I consider making the Championship game as elite. The Fuck Ya Four.

In my fracturing memory, the Championship game routinely features top 10 QBs, or sometimes better.

Literally every journeyman QB the 49ers have trotted out in recent history qualify then. Also its a catch 22 statement. Hurts hasn't been a "top 10 QB" until he achieved what you say is only achieved by top 10 QBs. Stafford has been borderline top 10 in his career. His predecessor with the Rams flat out sucked. Mark Sanchez made 2? Championship games. Jimmy G made the Owl. Now that I think of it, nearly every year 1 or even 2 QBS who are NOT top 10 make it the the championship game. 4 of the last 6 Owls have had one QB that wasn't top 10.

[run pMc]

Tom can not be kept on the bench. His is unquestionably one of the top 5 (3). For my money I try to get a 2nd for Bak and start Yosh at LT, Tom at RT. Its a downgrade, but if Yosh doesn't take that final step you have draft capital to get your LT of the future instead of desperately trying to rework Bak's deal in the offseason. You also get younger either way.

I also don't want to piss off a young guy who has earned a starting spot. Not unless you have had some real serious conversations with him and you are positive he sees the big picture.

I think Tom should be starting too, and at tackle not guard. Maybe he's a C, but I thought he was decent as a rookie at OT and think he's a long term player there.
As for Bak and Njiman, I wouldn't be shocked at all if Bak gets traded and Njiman signs elsewhere in the offseason, and Gute drafts an OT to compete with the players on the roster. They have 3 depth OTs competing in Caleb Jones, Rasheed Walker and Luke Tenuta. One of those 3 could emerge as the new Njiman, and they would have more cost/contract control with them than Njiman (plus Njiman leaving likely nets them a good comp pick). Next year's draft looks potentially deeper than this year's, which was top heavy and not deep at all. Fashanu, Alt, Lathan, Barton all are being talked about as R1 picks.

Bahktiari is still a good OT and they aren't easy to find. IDK if extending him is a good idea given his knee and the money he'll likely want. Njiman is a slightly above average starter at OT, they might be able to do better there. I think the team likes him as the backup swing tackle but he's going to get starter money elsewhere. I know they like the young guys at the back of the roster, if one emerges during camp I could see them making a move. Bahktiari is likely here at least until the trade deadline.

[Fritz]

I think Tom should be starting too, and at tackle not guard. Maybe he's a C, but I thought he was decent as a rookie at OT and think he's a long term player there.
As for Bak and Njiman, I wouldn't be shocked at all if Bak gets traded and Njiman signs elsewhere in the offseason, and Gute drafts an OT to compete with the players on the roster. They have 3 depth OTs competing in Caleb Jones, Rasheed Walker and Luke Tenuta. One of those 3 could emerge as the new Njiman, and they would have more cost/contract control with them than Njiman (plus Njiman leaving likely nets them a good comp pick). Next year's draft looks potentially deeper than this year's, which was top heavy and not deep at all. Fashanu, Alt, Lathan, Barton all are being talked about as R1 picks.

Bahktiari is still a good OT and they aren't easy to find. IDK if extending him is a good idea given his knee and the money he'll likely want. Njiman is a slightly above average starter at OT, they might be able to do better there. I think the team likes him as the backup swing tackle but he's going to get starter money elsewhere. I know they like the young guys at the back of the roster, if one emerges during camp I could see them making a move. Bahktiari is likely here at least until the trade deadline.

That makes some sense. Use him carefully, keep him healthy, show that he can still play at a high level - then trade him after you've gotten some use from him this year. It's a risk but perhaps worth taking.

I see that the Packers also claimed a center off waivers from Tennessee, who will take Garvin's spot on the roster. I also see some fumbled exchanges between Myers and Love. While I hope Myers works out, he seems the weak link on the line so far.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I asked statmuse.com for a list of QBs who have been to championship games more than once. Statmuse asked me for $20/mo subscription. I did get a (partial?) list that may be useful. Don't know if 2x QBs are complete, and that's most interesting part. My theory is JAG QBs getting to championship games was more common before ~2010. Just my perception.

Tom Brady 14
Steve Young 7
Joe Montana 7
Roger Staubach 7
John Elway 6
Terry Bradshaw 6
Patrick Mahomes 5
Aaron Rodgers 5
Ben Roethlisberger 5
Peyton Manning 5
Donovan McNabb 5
Brett Favre 5
Jim Kelly 5
Ken Stabler 5
Fran Tarkenton 5
Koy Detmer 4
Troy Aikman 4
Frank Reich 4
Bernie Kosar 4
Gary Kubiak 4
Danny White 4
Earl Morrall 4
Craig Morton 4
David Humm 4
Jimmy Garoppolo 3
Joe Flacco 3
Drew Brees 3
Kurt Warner 3
Mark Brunell 3
Jay Schroeder 3
Jim McMahon 3
Dan Marino 3
Don Strock 3
Bob Griese 3
Mike Tomczak 3
Joe Burrow 2
Russell Wilson 2
Colin Kaepernick 2
Matt Ryan 2
Mark Sanchez 2
Eli Manning 2
Jake Delhomme 2
Rich Gannon 2
Steve McNair 2
Kordell Stewart 3
Drew Bledsoe 2
Kerry Collins 2
Neil O'Donnell 2
Steve Bono 2
Mike Pagel 2

[run pMc]

Thanks for posting. A few thoughts (not being nitpicky, just my own opinions):

I think Tom Brady skews things.
I also agree that more JAG QBs made it that far pre 2010 because of league rules and the emphasis on the passing game.
Back in the 80's a strong defense and running game would get you far. I'd expect more RBs drafted high back then.

Many of those QBs aren't JAGs... they may not have been elite but they were top 10-12. Donovan McNabb, Steve McNair for example. Earl Morrall won MVP in 68.
I think the number on Gary Kubiak is iffy, if he played that many it was as a kneel-down/mop-up QB. Might be the case with a few others.

[SudsMcBucky]

I have not been keeping up very well with that side of things, Suds. What's the cap implication if they wanted to trade him this season?

This year he count $21MM against the cap if we keep him. If we trade him, it's a $38MM hit. NEXT year is when he goes, because if he stays on at his current contact, his hit would be $40MM, but if we cut/trade him next year, our hit would be $19MM.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Thanks for posting. A few thoughts (not being nitpicky, just my own opinions):

I think Tom Brady skews things.
I also agree that more JAG QBs made it that far pre 2010 because of league rules and the emphasis on the passing game.
Back in the 80's a strong defense and running game would get you far. I'd expect more RBs drafted high back then.

Many of those QBs aren't JAGs... they may not have been elite but they were top 10-12. Donovan McNabb, Steve McNair for example. Earl Morrall won MVP in 68.
I think the number on Gary Kubiak is iffy, if he played that many it was as a kneel-down/mop-up QB. Might be the case with a few others.

I completely agree with the parts where you completely agree with me. And the rest looks OK

I wish I had a more complete list because the JAGs and recents are skewed towards 1-2 appearances. Perhaps I will put my unpaid Mexican intern on the task.

But the list does contain one shocking reveal: a QB named David Humm played in 4 Championship games. The hummer references must have sucked.

[Harlan Huckleby]

PS. I assume the list is for starting QBs. Otherwise it would be overrun with clipboard holders.

[bobblehead]

When you move the goalposts (2 appearances) you have lost the argument.

[bobblehead]

Since recent history is most relevant to this year I go back to my point. Last 6 Owls had Stafford, Over the Hill Brady, Jimmy G, Goff, and Nick Foles.

I would argue that clearly 3 of those guys are flat out not good while 1 is borderline top 10. Brady is brady, but he wasn't peak Brady by that point either. Last year had Hurts, rounding out the last 6 and until he shows me another season like last I'm not crowning him the second coming yet either.

[Harlan Huckleby]

When you move the goalposts (2 appearances) you have lost the argument.

Looking at multiple appearances just clarifies the trends, doesn't move goalposts. I'd like to see a complete set of stats, including single appearances.
You cited some incidental cases, which may or may not reflect overall trends.

If you believe that the NFL has become a less QB-centric league (or stayed about the same over the years) you are entitled to that dubious opinion. I'm even open to the possibility that you are right.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Last 6 Owls had Stafford, Over the Hill Brady, Jimmy G, Goff, and Nick Foles.

I missed this because "OWLS" doesn't mean anything to me. I don't consider aging Stafford or Brady JAGS, they were still masterful, and Foles was playing great. You're right there is some Big JAG energy there, but doesn't prove anything.

[call_me_ishmael]

Tom can not be kept on the bench. His is unquestionably one of the top 5 (3). For my money I try to get a 2nd for Bak and start Yosh at LT, Tom at RT. Its a downgrade, but if Yosh doesn't take that final step you have draft capital to get your LT of the future instead of desperately trying to rework Bak's deal in the offseason. You also get younger either way.

I also don't want to piss off a young guy who has earned a starting spot. Not unless you have had some real serious conversations with him and you are positive he sees the big picture.

I would do this too I think, but the counterpoint and thing to keep is mind is how many young QBs just get ruined by bad OL. If they think JLo is Mr. World wide, I think they keep Bak. If they think they are going to be picking a QB high in 2025, i think they ship him off. I would imagine they have a very good idea by now and we will learn a lot about what they think they have in JLo by the age of the players they keep around him.

[Fritz]

If ol' Sudsy is right about the cap hit, sure seems Bakh will be around until after the season.

Ish, you make a good point - I think some potentially very good, young quarterbacks may have been ruined by being tossed into the fire without a good offensive line, too early in their QB careers, and become jumpy and skittish as a result. A kind of PTSD.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Ish, you make a good point - I think some potentially very good, young quarterbacks may have been ruined by being tossed into the fire without a good offensive line, too early in their QB careers, and become jumpy and skittish as a result. A kind of PTSD.

Kinda like Joey Harrington. Coulda been great like Julius Caesar. But the Motor City Eminem’s OL was almost as incompetent at protecting Harrington as Caesar’s body guards were on 15 March, 44 BC. The OL pretty much assassinated every ounce of Harrington’s confidence at playing QB.

Btw, Peyton Manning was in cold, dark and dull Green Bay yesterday to catch a Packers practice. We all know how entitled the Mannings are. Ali refused to play for the Whale Vagina Chargers. Peyton refused to workout for a single NFC team upon his release from the, pardon my German, Kultaz.

Manning scouting cold, dark and dull Green Bay for his nephew, hotshot QB Archibald?

[run pMc]

It's definitely a QB centric league now. Getting to the conference championship as a JAG QB means you're on an incredible hot streak or the team has other things going for it, like dynamic playmakers or a killer defense.
I think throwing a rookie out as a starter -- especially if they don't have a good supporting cast or a good coach -- is a recipe for disaster. I think you almost have to sit them a year so they can learn the offense and how to be a pro.
It's a tough position to play well from the mental side, and I think that's why so many young talented QBs bust.

[Harlan Huckleby]

It's definitely a QB centric league now. Getting to the conference championship as a JAG QB means you're on an incredible hot streak or the team has other things going for it, like dynamic playmakers or a killer defense.
ding ding ding
I thought 2010 was a kinda inflection point and that looks right
https://static.wixstatic.com/media/d20f08_ecec72fb60f9468694cd6edd482fb46d~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_925,h_571,al_c,q_85,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01,enc_auto/d20f08_ecec72fb60f9468694cd6edd482fb46d~mv2.jpg

How Important is the Quarterback Position for Winning a Super Bowl? (https://www.bruinsportsanalytics.com/post/nfl-qb-importance)

There have been a few memorable playoff JAGS the past couple years, but recency bias distorts the long term trends.

It would be interesting to see how QB salaries (relative to other positions) has varied over decades.
I seriously doubt that GMs today see surrounding a game manager with great defense etc is a smart strategy. But perhaps a stopgap for some teams.

[bobblehead]

In a changing world recency bias is very relevant. We have done this argument to death over the years and we have had a top 3 QB most of them and one Owl appearance to show for it. And that chart means not so much since league ranking of the QB takes a lot of things into factor. It also shows the "winning QB of the superb owl", not the 4 QBs in the championship game.

I'm not arguing that you WANT a bad QB, I'm just saying that great D and a well balanced team is MORE important than a top 5 QB...especially in a one year window of rankings. Flacco, Dilfer, Foles, Jimmy G, Krapernick and I could go on, have all had Owl wins and appearances. They are not great QBs. Yes, Maholmes, Brady, Brees have also won. Having a great QB gives you an edge, but having a great D is more important. How many Owls did Brady win with a D outside the top 10??

[bobblehead]

If ol' Sudsy is right about the cap hit, sure seems Bakh will be around until after the season.

Ish, you make a good point - I think some potentially very good, young quarterbacks may have been ruined by being tossed into the fire without a good offensive line, too early in their QB careers, and become jumpy and skittish as a result. A kind of PTSD.

I'm not positive, but I think that cutting Bak now (post June 1) is not much different than next offseason. Trade would be same effect. I also get Ish's point about giving Love the best chance to succeed, but long term that could be argued for trading Bak now. An Oline of Yosh, Elgon, Myers, Runyan, Tom would be top 10 still. And again, all the draft capital we would enter 2024 draft with would land us the next Bak if necessary.

I think they haven't gotten a good offer yet. They want to have him dominate for about 5-6 weeks, assess our own injuries and such, then if it makes sense they can still move him for a premium pick.

[Harlan Huckleby]

And that chart means not so much since league ranking of the QB takes a lot of things into factor. It also shows the "winning QB of the superb owl", not the 4 QBs in the championship game.
The argument is not about any particular measure. There is not a perfect stat. There are dozens of indicators one can think of to show the importance of the QB position. I thought the 4 Championship QBs cast a good broad net. I thought to look for 2x JAGS because it says a lot about the era the guy played in.

If you think that a top defense is more important than a top QB that is a plausible theory. My perception is that it is 1980s, 1990s thinking. There are many stats to look at. Somebody with a lot of research time could build a case one way or another. I've asked Pepe to get on it but he was non-responsive.

[run pMc]

Based on that, I see 6 QB outside the top 10 who won in ~35 years. I think those really low ranking winners (below 20) were Dilfer, E.Manning, and N.Foles? There's one I'm not sure is correct -- 2007. I don't recall Peyton being bad that year. Even if he was, I sure wouldn't call pre-2010 Peyton "JAG level".

Interesting article, noting how most SB winning teams are top 10 in O and D, and the QB usually takes up 10-12% of the salary cap space.

Agree about a GM going the game manager and great defense route as a strategy, not unless you know your defense is truly elite and your window very tight/short. Defense has higher year-over-year variation in performance than offense. Your best bet to having success is with a good offense, and the QB drives a lot of that.

[run pMc]

I'm not arguing that you WANT a bad QB, I'm just saying that great D and a well balanced team is MORE important than a top 5 QB...especially in a one year window of rankings. Flacco, Dilfer, Foles, Jimmy G, Krapernick and I could go on, have all had Owl wins and appearances. They are not great QBs. Yes, Maholmes, Brady, Brees have also won. Having a great QB gives you an edge, but having a great D is more important. How many Owls did Brady win with a D outside the top 10??

I don't 100% agree with this. I think a top 5 QB gets you to the playoffs -- there are enough bad defenses where if you have a great QB and good offense you'll win a lot of games. In the playoffs you're going to run into good/great defenses, that is almost a certainty in the conf championship game and SB. A top 5 QB can sometimes overcome that as well. I do agree that the vast majority of SB winning teams have good offenses AND good defenses - i.e., they are as you say "a well balanced team".

There are plenty of teams who are good on only one side of the ball who get picked apart on any given Sunday. I still think in the current NFL offense tops defense because of how the passing/QB rules are... so if one side of the ball was to be average and the other top 5, I'd prefer the offense to be top 5. I 100% agree that a shitty defense probably won't get you to a SB, much less win one. JMO

[run pMc]

An Oline of Yosh, Elgon, Myers, Runyan, Tom would be top 10 still.

I think Bakhtiari, when healthy, is considerably better than Njiman. I think if DB is healthy they can be top 5-8, without him they fall out of the top 10, maybe to about 12. Myers is a concern also, some plays he's all-world, others he's barely rosterable.
Love should be given a chance to play behind the best OL possible, at least to start. GB's schedule isn't considered tough early, so if they start out hot they could stay in the hunt for a playoff spot. If they fall out of contention by the deadline or the NYJ make a knockout offer for him then you consider moving on, but I'd think they will wait until the October 31 trade deadline to make that decision. There is little incentive for GB to trade Bakhtiari away at this point, or do the JetPacks any favors with conditional picks... I say make them sweeten any deal.

Speaking of Love, based on camp reports, it sounds like he's not hot garbage. Seems like he is generally making good decisions and mostly good throws. His accuracy isn't Rodgers-level, but if he isn't a turnover machine he could get this team to 8-9 wins. I think he's going to have a lot of highs and lows this year, my hope is he gets better and more consistent as the season goes on.

Also sounds like the WRs look good. Jayden Reed has looked better in camp than OTAs, and Watson/Doubs/Toure are looking good. Those are your top 4 WRs Week 1.

[call_me_ishmael]

Sounds like Davante Wyatt is going to be a monster.

https://www.reddit.com/r/GreenBayPackers/comments/15fz8ul/rob_demovsky_training_camp_update_on_devonte_wyatt/

[call_me_ishmael]

An Oline of Yosh, Elgon, Myers, Runyan, Tom would be top 10 still.

Hard disagree. I think it's bottom five probably. There is a pro bowl guard, a trash LT and center, an ok guard, and then a young guy with the potential to be a starter that hasn't shown a whole lot yet. Gun to my head I keep Tom and Guard and discard the other three as trash.

Yosh is probably the worst LT in the NFL. If he was a starter at LT he would have gotten an offer aside from the Packers, no? Elgton is very good obviously.

Myers is a jag thus far. Hopefully he shows he's athletic but he looks like he's a day late and a dollar short.

Runyan is Ruyan and he's okay. You can live with a serviceable guard.

Is Tom the real deal at tackle? I think there's a good chance but jury is still out. He's undersized but so what if he plays good. We shall see.

Overall, pretty crap OL without Bak.

[call_me_ishmael]

There's one I'm not sure is correct -- 2007. I don't recall Peyton being bad that year. Even if he was, I sure wouldn't call pre-2010 Peyton "JAG level"..

Peyton led the league in QB rating and TDs that year. He was 3rd in MVP voting. It's a bad take from whomever made it.

[MadScientist]

The chart is for the season, not the year the superbowlwas played. So 2007 was Eli and his 73.9 rating, not Peyton.

[bobblehead]

Hard disagree. I think it's bottom five probably. There is a pro bowl guard, a trash LT and center, an ok guard, and then a young guy with the potential to be a starter that hasn't shown a whole lot yet. Gun to my head I keep Tom and Guard and discard the other three as trash.

Yosh is probably the worst LT in the NFL. If he was a starter at LT he would have gotten an offer aside from the Packers, no? Elgton is very good obviously.

Myers is a jag thus far. Hopefully he shows he's athletic but he looks like he's a day late and a dollar short.

Runyan is Ruyan and he's okay. You can live with a serviceable guard.

Is Tom the real deal at tackle? I think there's a good chance but jury is still out. He's undersized but so what if he plays good. We shall see.

Overall, pretty crap OL without Bak.

Your assessment of OL play is....bad. Yosh isn't the worst LT in football. he is probably about 20. Yes, big downgrade, but he also may have improved for a 3rd straight year and be more like 12-15. Jenkins is elite. Runyan is top 25 (2 starting guards per team). Tom, unless he regresses is honestly a flat out stud. Myers isn't a JAG, its just that most people have no idea to watch blocking at the 2nd level, which he is elite at. A lot of nice Jones runs happened because Myers cut down the pursuit ILB. He does need to improve vs. the bull.

When I say still top 10, I mean about 10-12 to be honest. They can't be inside that without Bak. One thing I can say with certainty is that Yosh gets paid next year. By us or someone else....unless he regresses.

Remember, Yosh played a ton of snaps at LT and those lines still graded out pretty well.

[Upnorth]

Hard disagree. I think it's bottom five probably. There is a pro bowl guard, a trash LT and center, an ok guard, and then a young guy with the potential to be a starter that hasn't shown a whole lot yet. Gun to my head I keep Tom and Guard and discard the other three as trash.

Yosh is probably the worst LT in the NFL. If he was a starter at LT he would have gotten an offer aside from the Packers, no? Elgton is very good obviously.

Myers is a jag thus far. Hopefully he shows he's athletic but he looks like he's a day late and a dollar short.

Runyan is Ruyan and he's okay. You can live with a serviceable guard.

Is Tom the real deal at tackle? I think there's a good chance but jury is still out. He's undersized but so what if he plays good. We shall see.

Overall, pretty crap OL without Bak.

Did you watch the games last year? Do yo project a big decline from yosh this year, as he was not horrible. He was average. Myers is far from jag, not all pro either but at least top 15 as a pure center. He is a solid blocker in run, great at pass. however his biggest weakness was line adjustments, so losing 12 will hurt him more than anyone else (unless love can tell him the adjustments like 12 did). Tom has massive upside (i think) but he is the one who might be the worst. Time will tell. I agree runyan is runyan. servicable.

[run pMc]

Bottom 10 is very harsh.
I think Tom had his struggles but fared quite well as a rookie, and he's put on 10-15 pounds of muscle.

Myers isn't awful, but thus far he's been a lesser player on a very good OL Njiman is a meh-level starter, a good swing tackle. He's not a liability, but he's not a franchise guy either. PFF had him at 63.1 last year at T, they had Zach Tom at 68.3. I think 60 is league average?
FWIW, Myers was 60.4, Runyan 62.6, Jenkins 72.3, Newman 57.5.

Bakhtiari was 79.8 - so he and Jenkins graded out as the best OL, and Tom was the next closest. You can quibble about PFF grades, but my eyes (and other scouting web resources) generally agree.

The OL improved as Jenkins and Bakhtiari got healthier and settled in at their positions, and the OL shifted around less. The first 2-3 games the OL did not play well, but you also had Newman and Hanson taking meaningful snaps and players playing out of their main position.
I would expect better OL performance from the get-go this year, APRH.

[QBME]

Kinda disappointed
The thread is training camp subject
I’m stuck in the Flatland without any news or observations
So how are the boys playing?
Is the Love machine doing well?
Joe Barry has an embarrassing wealth of first and second round draft picks, how they looking?

[wrestlefun]

After attending camp all of last week here are my takes:
Love looked shakey. He had some great passes and some that the receivers were not on the same page. I think his year will mirror how Rodgers first year went but that will be told. The defense will still hold hope as long as they are not overworked. Special teams will be great at returning the ball but the newly drafted kicker in camp has been lackluster...

[run pMc]

Haven't been many padded practices yet, so jury is out on OL and DL, although Slaton/Wyatt/Clark supposedly look good.
I've heard little about the LBs.

Jaire has been looking really good, as have Rasul and Carrington Valentine.
Not much news on the safeties.

WRs - all have had their moments, Watson and Doubs look fine, Jayden Reed has improved since OTAs and shouldn't be mistaken for Amari. Toure has had a few nice plays as well. Bo Melton had a nice day recently.
Musgrave is very fast and fluid but raw. Kraft is more under the radar but both are working hard at learning the position and the team might have something there. It's waaay too early though.
RBs - if Tyler Goodson could pass protect he'd be a lock. The R7 pick Nichols has dropped a few easy passes, he'll have to work on that.
OL - looks like Njiman might be the swing tackle, with Tom at RT. Still early and I think they let it play out.

K - Carlson has been inconsistent. No need to panic yet. Has a big leg. Daniel Whelan does too and is giving O'Donnell competition at P. No word on LS.

Jordan Love has made good decisions with where to go with the ball, but hasn't always been accurate. The receivers have dropped a few too, but Love has looked competent. I don't think his ceiling is Aaron Rodgers, but he has arm talent and seems to be developing the mental part of the game nicely, which is encouraging. I've never been on his bandwagon, I need to see more in games. I'm definitely cheering for him to succeed.

The red zone and two minute drills have been problems for the offense (as they were last year). MLF is going to have to find a way to solve that problem.

[Fritz]

Sounds like Davante Wyatt is going to be a monster.

https://www.reddit.com/r/GreenBayPackers/comments/15fz8ul/rob_demovsky_training_camp_update_on_devonte_wyatt/

After all the hand-job stories last year in training camp about various players on the Packers' defense, plus the knob-polishing about the defense's play as a unit, I really thought at the beginning the of season last year that the defense could carry the team.

Not.

So I'm just not going to go along with all that stuff until these guys actually show up and play well. They seem to talk a good game but that's about it.

[Fosco33]

Packers need to focus on fundamentals and cohesion as always.

And focus on the division.

Since 2017 - we’re 10-13-1 vs the Lions/Vikes. I suppose .500 in the division is expected for average teams…

[Fritz]

Haven't been many padded practices yet, so jury is out on OL and DL, although Slaton/Wyatt/Clark supposedly look good.
I've heard little about the LBs.

Jaire has been looking really good, as have Rasul and Carrington Valentine.
Not much news on the safeties.

WRs - all have had their moments, Watson and Doubs look fine, Jayden Reed has improved since OTAs and shouldn't be mistaken for Amari. Toure has had a few nice plays as well. Bo Melton had a nice day recently.
Musgrave is very fast and fluid but raw. Kraft is more under the radar but both are working hard at learning the position and the team might have something there. It's waaay too early though.
RBs - if Tyler Goodson could pass protect he'd be a lock. The R7 pick Nichols has dropped a few easy passes, he'll have to work on that.
OL - looks like Njiman might be the swing tackle, with Tom at RT. Still early and I think they let it play out.

K - Carlson has been inconsistent. No need to panic yet. Has a big leg. Daniel Whelan does too and is giving O'Donnell competition at P. No word on LS.

Jordan Love has made good decisions with where to go with the ball, but hasn't always been accurate. The receivers have dropped a few too, but Love has looked competent. I don't think his ceiling is Aaron Rodgers, but he has arm talent and seems to be developing the mental part of the game nicely, which is encouraging. I've never been on his bandwagon, I need to see more in games. I'm definitely cheering for him to succeed.

The red zone and two minute drills have been problems for the offense (as they were last year). MLF is going to have to find a way to solve that problem.

Since this really is a rebuilding year, it'd be a great year to keep Whelan and develop him - as long as he can be a serviceable holder for the new kicker, and not a holder like Cory Borkholoviwc or whatever his name was. If Whelan can tackle that job and do it well enough not to fug up Carlson's head, then why not make him your punter? You'd have a booming leg for the next few years on the cheap.

Bet we'll see a lot of Tyler Goodson in pre-season games getting a chance to show he can block.

[run pMc]

I feel like I'm one of about 5 people concerned about the kicking position. GB's margin of error is pretty slim this year and if Carlson sails kicks wide and costs them a few games, that will be pretty frustrating.
He's Bisaccia's guy and they will "weather the storm" with him, which is nice but I hope it pays off.

Also am very careful about any praise given to the defense. Last year proved that it was more the offense stinking than the defense excelling in camp.
RZ offense was a problem last year and continues to be a problem. If you can't punch it in the end zone and your kicker can't kick, you're looking at a bad record.

[Fritz]

It really is about "I hope it pays off." I expect an up-and-down year from the kid - but will he be like Brett Conway and lose his mojo and be ruined, or will the misses toughen him up and make him better?

[Fosco33]

Towards the end of last year / none of us expected Mason to make even 45yr FGs but less 55+. Change is inevitable

[Upnorth]

I feel like I'm one of about 5 people concerned about the kicking position. GB's margin of error is pretty slim this year and if Carlson sails kicks wide and costs them a few games, that will be pretty frustrating.
He's Bisaccia's guy and they will "weather the storm" with him, which is nice but I hope it pays off.

Also am very careful about any praise given to the defense. Last year proved that it was more the offense stinking than the defense excelling in camp.
RZ offense was a problem last year and continues to be a problem. If you can't punch it in the end zone and your kicker can't kick, you're looking at a bad record.

The position I'm most concerned with is k.

[texaspackerbacker]

Good Job runpMc stepping up and giving us detailed reports, much like Joe has done other years.

I also am concerned - but hopeful - about Carlson as the kicker. I've always liked Goodson as a backup RB, Patrick Taylor too. Dillon is the one I'm kinda negative about. It's gonna be interesting when they actually start hitting, O and D both.

I'm one who doesn't put much stock in those PFF OLine numbers. What my eyes show - and I hope we can all agree, the Packers the past few years have done a great job with inside zone running/Guard-Center holes, and rarely have much success running outside. That tells me our Guards and Center are doing damn good, and the O Tackles not so much. It may not be quite so obvious, but my eyes see a helluva lot more pressure on the QB coming from the outside than inside - also indicating the interior linemen are doing the job, and the tackles not so much. And that stuff includes times when Bakhtiari has played - the reason I call him the sacred cow.

[sharpe1027]

I googled it and sacks come twice as often from exterior pressure than from interior pressure on average. If you're seeing pressure from the inside anywhere near as much as from outside, something is very wrong.

[Fritz]

I googled it and sacks come twice as often from exterior pressure than from interior pressure on average. If you're seeing pressure from the inside anywhere near as much as from outside, something is very wrong.

Which is apparently where it's been coming from in practice. Josh Myers, you're on notice.

[bobblehead]

I feel like I'm one of about 5 people concerned about the kicking position. GB's margin of error is pretty slim this year and if Carlson sails kicks wide and costs them a few games, that will be pretty frustrating.
He's Bisaccia's guy and they will "weather the storm" with him, which is nice but I hope it pays off.

Also am very careful about any praise given to the defense. Last year proved that it was more the offense stinking than the defense excelling in camp.
RZ offense was a problem last year and continues to be a problem. If you can't punch it in the end zone and your kicker can't kick, you're looking at a bad record.

If I thought this team could get to the big game I would be worried. I would want Crosby back by now. Since this is a rebirth year, losing 2 games because of the kicker means better draft capital. If he isn't "right" by next year they will have a lot of competition around him, and a vet on speed dial.

[MadtownPacker]

After attending camp all of last week here are my takes:
Love looked shakey. He had some great passes and some that the receivers were not on the same page. I think his year will mirror how Rodgers first year went but that will be told. The defense will still hold hope as long as they are not overworked. Special teams will be great at returning the ball but the newly drafted kicker in camp has been lackluster...
How’s it going wrestlefan. Your account is now fully activated and everyone can see your posts. Welcome to the forum.

[Fritz]

How’s it going wrestlefan. Your account is now fully activated and everyone can see your posts. Welcome to the forum.

Ah, the kicker. I hope we got us a Crosby and not a Conway.

[MadScientist]

Is it just me, or is the family night coverage terrible. Instead of showing Love in a team red zone period, they spend 5+ minutes on a stupid face swap thing

[call_me_ishmael]

They should really do a scrimmage again. This is such a disservice to the fans.

[call_me_ishmael]

Myers isn’t even gonna be a starter since he sucks at snapping

https://twitter.com/AndyHermanNFL/status/1688026543186927617?s=20

[ThunderDan]

Larry and the Rock said they thought it is going to be Toms as the 5th lineman and either Nijmam at RT or Myers at C depending who plays better between the two.

[ThunderDan]

Is it just me, or is the family night coverage terrible. Instead of showing Love in a team red zone period, they spend 5+ minutes on a stupid face swap thing

Yes, totally horrible. Trying too hard to make it family friendly. Not enough time focusing on the football for the football fans.

[Joemailman]

Larry and the Rock said they thought it is going to be Toms as the 5th lineman and either Nijmam at RT or Myers at C depending who plays better between the two.

I think the only thing keeping Tom from being the #1 Center right now is that with Bakhtiari taking so much time off, Tom is often needed at RT. But the bad snaps can't continue.

[bobblehead]

Myers isn’t even gonna be a starter since he sucks at snapping

https://twitter.com/AndyHermanNFL/status/1688026543186927617?s=20

Yep, the evidence is that it must be Myers because of all the previous fumbled snaps with Rodgers. And we know how Rodgers lets those things slide. /sarc

Honestly, its an issue, but past evidence (4 years of college included) would suggest its a blip on the radar. However my best guess right now is that its Yosh vs. Myers for the 5th OL spot and Yosh might just be winning that battle. Trade of Bak being the wildcard in all that.

[bobblehead]

Larry and the Rock said they thought it is going to be Toms as the 5th lineman and either Nijmam at RT or Myers at C depending who plays better between the two.

Hmm...I should really read ahead before posting.

[bobblehead]

Yes, totally horrible. Trying too hard to make it family friendly. Not enough time focusing on the football for the football fans.


They should really do a scrimmage again. This is such a disservice to the fans.

Yes, we would appreciate a scrimmage, but sadly we are the minority for what they can fill a stadium with at this point of the season. This is a local community outreach thing and they are killing it to be honest. And past injuries on family night scrimmage all but scuttled that idea so get used to it.

[bobblehead]

So it seems we have Ricky Vaught at K. If we can just get him some dollar store glasses we might have something there. Man he has a ton of leg.

I am loving the competition between our young WR and our good CBs. This should make both better, and Love as well.

Musgrave just looks smooth for a guy his size.

Wyatt is going to show why he should have been playing more early last year.

[Teamcheez1]

Danny Etling released.

[bobblehead]

Bak missed a 2nd practice in a row. Not a good sign. He was supposed to participate to my knowledge. His health may make a trade impossible, and our OL depth get shallow real quick.

[call_me_ishmael]

Is there any reason to think he's not completely healthy? I haven't been following closely but I thought he was basically 100%.

[NewsBruin]

Bak missed a 2nd practice in a row. Not a good sign. He was supposed to participate to my knowledge. His health may make a trade impossible, and our OL depth get shallow real quick.

That contract makes a trade near-impossible. Almost $20 million both this season and next (https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/green-bay-packers/david-bakhtiari-12390/) in bonus money that get slammed onto our cap if we part ways. Maybe there's another team with a high dead-money contract that we would both hold our noses as the cap smoke burns.

If we trade Bak, the other team gets him for $1M this season and about $20M if they want him in 2024.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Yes, we would appreciate a scrimmage, but sadly we are the minority for what they can fill a stadium with at this point of the season. This is a local community outreach thing and they are killing it to be honest. And past injuries on family night scrimmage all but scuttled that idea so get used to it.

Burrow and Ramsey got injured during non-contact drills this summer.

I am all for the NFLPA making work safer for the players. But last I checked, the NFL played tackle futbol. Practice makes perfect, ain’t that what they said? The Packers shouldn’t ban tackling in practice just cos injury-prone Bryan Bulaga tore out his knee in one scrimmage. Tackling in practice turns pussies (cats) into cocks (roosters), as Bear Bryant used to say during his notorious hellfire training camps at Texas AM.

[NewsBruin]

The Packers shouldn’t ban tackling in practice just cos injury-prone Bryan Bulaga tore out his knee in one scrimmage. Tackling in practice turns pussies (cats) into cocks (roosters), as Bear Bryant used to say during his notorious hellfire training camps at Texas AM.

Football went downhill when they let the players have water.

If you want to see how tough they were in the good ol days, check out this documentary (https://www.pbs.org/video/unrivaled-sewanee-1899-1vp1hk/)of my wife's alma mater. In 1899, the Sewanee Tigers won 5 road games (Texas, Texas A&M, Tulane, LSU, and Ole Miss) in 6 days and won the SEC undefeated. Also, it sounds like Hemingway levels of ultramasculine suckage.

[run pMc]

MLF has had live tackling periods in camp at least twice so far, don't think he did that at all last year.
After last year, they need the practice at tackling.

The NFLPA has strict guidelines on certain practices and timing, which is good to protect the players, but it does feel like it overreaches at times. (Easy for me to say, I'm not in camp.) As much as I think a little 'toughening' would do them some good, I'd hate for them to get to Week 1 feeling beat up or fatigued from a grueling camp. It's a long season and 300 pound people running full speed into each other takes a heavy physical toll.

[run pMc]

Bak missed a 2nd practice in a row. Not a good sign. He was supposed to participate to my knowledge. His health may make a trade impossible, and our OL depth get shallow real quick.

I think he might not be fully healthy, and probably never will be. MLF said earlier they were working DB's practice schedule from Family Night backwards, and he basically got the week off. That tells me his knee had some kind of reaction to practicing. Maybe it's temporary, but I got the sense that it was the new normal for him to need to baby that knee a little. When he's able to go, he's been good. Wouldn't be shocked if they keep him and Njiman this year, I don't think you can trade either.
I also wouldn't be surprised if he retired after 2024 ... this knee business will scare teams off and it seems like his knee is going to be a permanent, lifelong issue.

[bobblehead]

Burrow and Ramsey got injured during non-contact drills this summer.

I am all for the NFLPA making work safer for the players. But last I checked, the NFL played tackle futbol. Practice makes perfect, ain’t that what they said? The Packers shouldn’t ban tackling in practice just cos injury-prone Bryan Bulaga tore out his knee in one scrimmage. Tackling in practice turns pussies (cats) into cocks (roosters), as Bear Bryant used to say during his notorious hellfire training camps at Texas AM.

Not disagreeing with you, was just putting the teams thoughts on paper (pixels). I think if you don't tackle in practice you don't tackle well in games.

[Joemailman]

Gary coming off PUP list today.

Grant Dubose off NFI list.

[red]

Gary coming off PUP list today.

Wow, that’s way sooner then I thought

Great news

[Teamcheez1]

I don’t expect Bakh to play for the Packers next year.
I will be surprised if he plays in close to 17 games this season.
The risk vs. reward plus his salary dictate it’s time to move on.
Frankly, I’m surprised they stuck with him for this year. He’s definitely not earning his contract the last 3 years.

[Joemailman]

Packers sign RB Nathan McCrary. They had tried to sign him after draft as a UDFA but he signed with someone else. Alumni of Saginaw Valley St, which produced Matt LaFleur and Jeff Janis.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ExpRPHdWQAE1VRx?format=png&name=900x900

[Fritz]

Gary coming off PUP list today.

Grant Dubose off NFI list.

I too am surprised about Gary. I'd have thought they'd play it really safe, as they usually do, and keep him on the PUP and have him miss the first six games or four games or whatever it is. Maybe they want to see him play a few games to see how he holds up before they give him a big extension? Or maybe he's just healed well.

I also thought they'd just try to stash Dubose on the PS by keeping him on the NFI list until near the end of training camp. He's got lots of ground to make up. I wonder if he'd pass through waivers to get onto the practice squad? He was, what, a seventh round pick?

[Joemailman]

I too am surprised about Gary. I'd have thought they'd play it really safe, as they usually do, and keep him on the PUP and have him miss the first six games or four games or whatever it is. Maybe they want to see him play a few games to see how he holds up before they give him a big extension? Or maybe he's just healed well.

I also thought they'd just try to stash Dubose on the PS by keeping him on the NFI list until near the end of training camp. He's got lots of ground to make up. I wonder if he'd pass through waivers to get onto the practice squad? He was, what, a seventh round pick?

A 7th round pick should clear waivers unless he just is awesome in the preseason games. Which is unlikely given all the time he's missed. He has a lot of catching up to do. He's at best #8 right now on the WR depth chart.

[run pMc]

Usually GB holds out players until they hit the 10 month mark, Gary was close to that. From all accounts he was an absolute beast about rehabbing, and he's still pretty young so probably healed quickly as a result. People throw around the term "athletic freak" too much in football, Gary actually qualifies. It's good news but I expect they will bring him along slowly, even into the first few games.

As for DuBose, I was also starting to think he'd just end up on IR or something. I heard it was a back injury, but he had been rehabbing it and was in a jersey on the sideline at times, so he was probably close to being ready. As it is, he's way behind and likely gets stashed on the PS. Every team has one or two guys at WR they like and want to stash, it's unlikely anyone will poach him to put him on their 53. They become fan favorites and there's all kinds of hand wringing when they get cut but end up on the PS anyway. I liked the pick and hope he turns out for GB but he's a R7 pick so it's not a big investment like Amari.

Agree he's probably #8 or #9 on the WR depth chart, he has to pass up Malik Heath and Bo Melton and maybe even the mid-camp signees (Miller, Chrest).

It's also possible they only keep 5 WRs on the 53; with the likelihood of more 2 TE sets or 2RB sets (with Deguara at FB/HB) there won't be much need for a WR6. Looking forward to games.

[call_me_ishmael]

I think he might not be fully healthy, and probably never will be. MLF said earlier they were working DB's practice schedule from Family Night backwards, and he basically got the week off. That tells me his knee had some kind of reaction to practicing. Maybe it's temporary, but I got the sense that it was the new normal for him to need to baby that knee a little. When he's able to go, he's been good. Wouldn't be shocked if they keep him and Njiman this year, I don't think you can trade either.
I also wouldn't be surprised if he retired after 2024 ... this knee business will scare teams off and it seems like his knee is going to be a permanent, lifelong issue.

Chad Clifton never practiced but was a rock. No reason Bak can't be the same if the knee allows it. I am surprised to hear this, though. I thought he was good to go.

[call_me_ishmael]

It really does sound like Rashan has a Watt-esque work ethic.

[Joemailman]

Bakhtiari practiced today. He's at a point where he probably won't practice much.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Speaking of Gary, where the fuck is our resident redneck, GregJennings, aka, NickCollins, aka, JustinHarrell, aka, RashonGary? Ain’t heard from the dude for a while. Hope he ain’t trapped in a well.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Football went downhill when they let the players have water.

If you want to see how tough they were in the good ol days, check out this documentary (https://www.pbs.org/video/unrivaled-sewanee-1899-1vp1hk/)of my wife's alma mater. In 1899, the Sewanee Tigers won 5 road games (Texas, Texas A&M, Tulane, LSU, and Ole Miss) in 6 days and won the SEC undefeated. Also, it sounds like Hemingway levels of ultramasculine suckage.

I know you’re joking, but not allowing water during the dog days of summer ain’t toughness; it’s torture.

[Upnorth]

My biggest question about our team. Is our oline bad or our pass rush great.

If th epass rush is great with our corners we are set even if love is below average. And I think love is better than average.

I am getting so excited for the season, however I was last year at this time as well.

[Upnorth]

https://www.packers.com/team/depth-chart

Unofficial depth chart releases yesterday

[MadScientist]

My biggest question about our team. Is our oline bad or our pass rush great.

If th epass rush is great with our corners we are set even if love is below average. And I think love is better than average.

I am getting so excited for the season, however I was last year at this time as well.

The pass rush should be good, it's a matter if they can stop the run. As for the OL, how much of the issues that we are seeing come down to center? Meyers is a weak link, and one weak link on the line can throw everything off.

[Joemailman]

The pass rush should be good, it's a matter if they can stop the run. As for the OL, how much of the issues that we are seeing come down to center? Meyers is a weak link, and one weak link on the line can throw everything off.

This is why I want Tom at Center. Bakhtiari and Jenkins can be a dominant left side, but it doesn't work if opposing NT's are crashing through the A gap.

[texaspackerbacker]

https://www.packers.com/team/depth-chart

Unofficial depth chart releases yesterday

Good to see this actually put in writing. A few surprises but not many:

Engabare buried and behind Hollins is one. Kraft behind Tyler Davis, maybe. Hanson still being there at all. Carpenter behind Eric Wilson. I thought we had a second kicker, at least in camp.

Surprising they even have a Fullback listed, Deguara there rather than backup TE.

Is Stokes still on PUP or what? - surprising he is not listed.

[texaspackerbacker]

I do NOT want anybody but Meyers as first string Center. We had a dominant inside run game with him there and Jenkins at LG. I wouldn't mind seeing Tom and Nijman as the two starting Tackles.

[Upnorth]

Good to see this actually put in writing. A few surprises but not many:

Engabare buried and behind Hollins is one. Kraft behind Tyler Davis, maybe. Hanson still being there at all. Carpenter behind Eric Wilson. I thought we had a second kicker, at least in camp.

Surprising they even have a Fullback listed, Deguara there rather than backup TE.

Is Stokes still on PUP or what? - surprising he is not listed.

Stokes will be out for the start of the season. I cant believe a guy who struggled walking a few moths ago is making cuts already.
I have heard a lot of good about hollins surge from some podcasts i listen to. Some day i will make it to training camp. probably not until i retire though.
I think deg was always going to be a fullback but this is one of the small tweaks to the full lafluer game plan we will see now that 12 left.
And just a couple weeks ago i though meyers was solid, but he has something like 6 fumbled attemps to 2 different qbs in training camp now. switch that over to a season and that will be like 8 to 10 fumbles at least. a centre can not do that. At the same time Tom is a future starting tackle on this team and needs to be available if bak cant go.

[run pMc]

I'm told Stokes' injury was actually very serious - I guess a Lisfranc is worse than an ACL? Either way, he was in a wheelchair in January, running and tackling at full speed might take a minute.

The depth chart stuff after a week or two of camp is a little bit of fan service IMO, it's going to change a lot once the preseason games (and injuries) happen. Hollins is a pretty good OLB 4 or 5, it's no secret why they cut Garvin and Hamilton.
Deguara is hurt right now but they've had Pearson in as FB all camp. They don't really have another player who can take that role at the moment. Musgrave, Kraft, and Davis don't really fit the FB/HB mold.

Myers has had some bad snaps and Tom has started to take snaps at C. Myers needs to step it up. You can't have bad snaps. I am holding out hope that he figures it out and wins the starting job, so Tom can play RT. I think he's best at T but could see him succeed at C as well. Myers, Tom, and Njiman are basically fighting for 2 starting spots on the line.

Bahktiari was back at practice yesterday. They will do whatever they need to do to keep him healthy for the season. He's a better LT than Tom or Njiman. He probably doesn't need that much practice time, but it helps with a new QB and to stay in game shape.

[call_me_ishmael]

Man, what a kick in the Pants 2011 and 2014 were. You always think you're gonna get another one, but this team got so close so many times but never did. I can't help but feel that TT and now Gooter never went all in and that is why they never got over the line. Hard to believe that we got a total of two wins in ~30 years of top 10 QB ever play.

[run pMc]

Nearly 26% of their salary cap this year is dead money - they did try to go all in. The TB loss in 2020 and 2021 SF mess were the unfortunate results. It takes more than cap spending to win. 2014 showed you need luck too.

[Fritz]

I'm told Stokes' injury was actually very serious - I guess a Lisfranc is worse than an ACL? Either way, he was in a wheelchair in January, running and tackling at full speed might take a minute.

The depth chart stuff after a week or two of camp is a little bit of fan service IMO, it's going to change a lot once the preseason games (and injuries) happen. Hollins is a pretty good OLB 4 or 5, it's no secret why they cut Garvin and Hamilton.
Deguara is hurt right now but they've had Pearson in as FB all camp. They don't really have another player who can take that role at the moment. Musgrave, Kraft, and Davis don't really fit the FB/HB mold.

Myers has had some bad snaps and Tom has started to take snaps at C. Myers needs to step it up. You can't have bad snaps. I am holding out hope that he figures it out and wins the starting job, so Tom can play RT. I think he's best at T but could see him succeed at C as well. Myers, Tom, and Njiman are basically fighting for 2 starting spots on the line.

Bahktiari was back at practice yesterday. They will do whatever they need to do to keep him healthy for the season. He's a better LT than Tom or Njiman. He probably doesn't need that much practice time, but it helps with a new QB and to stay in game shape.


I think with Deguara they're reclassifying him because he really is a fullback and not a TE, in terms of what he does. Pearson has also distinguished himself there; maybe they're going to go back to a fullback position as part of the offense, officially. Though I don't expect either one to get an William Henderson-type plays in which they actually carry the ball from a handoff.

I am wondering if part of the hesitancy with puttin Tom at center when Myers has not been good this camp comes from the desire to let Nijman settle in as a left tackle and not having him have to swing. He seems uncomfortable going back and forth - I've read that he struggled to adapt to the right side (or was it the left?), so maybe he's just not as adaptable going back and forth. Just speculation on my part. But Myers is not having a good camp - not just the lousy snaps, but lots of push from the defensive line through the middle - and it'd seem a no-brainer to put Tom there, especially as Guter, I think, said he things center is Tom's best position.

[Upnorth]

Man, what a kick in the Pants 2011 and 2014 were. You always think you're gonna get another one, but this team got so close so many times but never did. I can't help but feel that TT and now Gooter never went all in and that is why they never got over the line. Hard to believe that we got a total of two wins in ~30 years of top 10 QB ever play.

The cap issues from the last 2 years were a result of Gute going all in... Im glad they didnt go further because Love would not be given a fair chance at evaluation this year with a handicapped team.

[texaspackerbacker]

Thats sounds ok to me. I'd rather see Musgrave, Kraft, and Davis (in that order) ahead of him at TE anyway. Just leave Deguara as the Fullback, but don't have a fullback on the field for very many snaps.

Myers has had "bad snaps" with two QBs after hardly any last season ...... and nobody is thinking it might be on the QBs?

[Joemailman]

Thats sounds ok to me. I'd rather see Musgrave, Kraft, and Davis (in that order) ahead of him at TE anyway. Just leave Deguara as the Fullback, but don't have a fullback on the field for very many snaps.

Myers has had "bad snaps" with two QBs after hardly any last season ...... and nobody is thinking it might be on the QBs?

Packers have used 4 different QB's, but all the bad snaps have happened with 1 Center - Myers.

[Upnorth]

Packers have used 4 different QB's, but all the bad snaps have happened with 1 Center - Myers.

I hadnt heard of snap issues with magoo or etling, just love and clifford. However, i have no firm info either way. Just that the bulk have been with love, but some are with a different qb. To me that says centre issue. Plus a quick google search from myers and 2022 gave me a headline of 12 chewing him out for a bad snap. So it is a multi year issue it looks

[Joemailman]

I hadnt heard of snap issues with magoo or etling, just love and clifford. However, i have no firm info either way. Just that the bulk have been with love, but some are with a different qb. To me that says centre issue. Plus a quick google search from myers and 2022 gave me a headline of 12 chewing him out for a bad snap. So it is a multi year issue it looks

It might have been just with Love and Clifford. My point was when all the bad snaps are with the same Center, the problem is likely the Center. Guys other than Myers have been snapping too, with no problems.

It's too early to bury Myers, but it's hard to make the argument he's one of the Packers top 5 OL right now.

It's not like he's coming off a stellar season.



Wendell Ferreira
@wendellfp
#Packers offensive linemen PFF grades:

David Bakhtiari 79.8
Elgton Jenkins 72.3
Zach Tom 68.3
Yosh Nijman 63.1
Jon Runyan 62.6
Josh Myers 60.4
Royce Newman 57.5
Jake Hanson 47.2
5:31 AM · Jan 18, 2023
·
1,431
Views

[texaspackerbacker]

So that's how many bad snaps out of how many? Does this include every play in practice? Every hand off, every pass in passing drills? I would think there would be a helluva a lot - probably more in an hour of practice than the total snaps in several games. And lack of concentration is a poor excuse - you practice like you play, but undoubtedly it does exist in a lower pressure situation.

Bottom line: keep Myers at #1 Center- Period.

[bobblehead]

Right now the packers have a "big 4" OL. Then they have 2 guys battling for #5. I know at this point everyone knows this, but it needs framing.

I am torn because Yosh has come so far I want to see him play, but Tom is so good I don't want to make him a center unless Yosh were to REALLY step up and make for a dominant 5. I can't see that because Yosh has some limitations in the run game. He can create lanes just with his size and positioning, but in short yardage he will never knock anyone back. Bak is the same way, so if they are your starting bookends you will always have an issue in short yardage. Your almost limited to running right up the gut or play action. Creativity can solve some ills for sure.

I go back to the way I would play it as GM. I would trade Bak, start the next 5 and see where it cracks going into the next draft. If its Myers you can enter the next draft looking for best OL available because you have so much flexibility with Tom and Jenkins. If its Yosh at LT then you look for that next big thing at LT. If its both, then the entire discussion was irrelevant anyway.

[run pMc]

There are 60-80 plays in a game, depending on TOP, pace, run vs. pass, overtime, etc. That would be a lot of snaps in an hour of practice.
Either way, one bad snap can cost you a game. You wouldn't expect a top 75 pick with 23 games of experience to be having issues snapping the ball.

That aside, I would be curious to know if the bad snaps were in shotgun vs. under center. I know at least one was out of shotgun, which is odd. Supposedly Love has been under center more than Rodgers was (the thumb played into that, as well as preferences) and that might be part of it.

I don't think Njiman is the long-term answer at T, he's a meh starter but good as a backup/swing tackle. Bahktiari is a better T than Njiman, but his knee makes his availabilty a question. It's kind of a mess. If they get some kind of jump from Caleb Jones or Rasheed Walker then maybe you can get away with trading one (or both) of them, but I'd bet Gute is planning on keeping both Bahk and Njiman this year with a first year starter at QB. OL looks like a relative strength, might as well lean into it this year.

As for Tom, I think he could excel at C, but I also feel like T is a more valuable position and if he can play well there to keep him there. It's easier to find a starting C than a starting caliber T. I suppose if they really mean what they say about playing their best five, it could mean Tom is the C and not Myers.

I like Myers and am hoping he works through all of this. He's a big dude and super athletic for his size, he needs to put it together. GB asks tough things of a C -- like pulling or reach-blocks -- that most teams have their G's do because their C's can't. They took him over Creed Humphrey because they thought he could do that stuff and wasn't Humphrey's style/would struggle with it. Myers is still on the young side and has only played 1.5 seasons, but this year will tell us if he's a keeper or not.

[Joemailman]

Matt Schneidman
@mattschneidman

Love went 3/5 passing in first 11-on-11s against Bengals D. Nice quick slant to Samori Toure for a substantial gain, nice completion to FB Henry Pearson on the right side, another nice gain to Watson on crosser over middle. Last throw was underthrown bomb to Doubs incomplete.


Paul Dehner Jr.
@pauldehnerjr

Session of 11-on-11 between Bengals O and Packers D dominated by Green Bay.

Nothing of note outside of one pass to Tyler Boyd up the seam and a nice run by Joe Mixon.

Otherwise a struggle to find any space or success in the pass game.


Ryan Wood
@ByRyanWood

Ten-yard TD pass for Jordan Love in back, right corner end zone to Christian Watson. Watson beat Bengals CB Cam Taylor-Britt to the corner, and Love didn’t miss.


Wes Hodkiewicz
@WesHod

Carrington Valentine now with two PBUs in red zone. He’s outside corner. Jaire practicing but not in team



Ryan Wood
@ByRyanWood

Bengals CB Mike Hilton picks a Jordan Love pass from the 3-yard line. #Packers had bunch left on the goal line, and looked like Hilton jumped a screen pass off the jump. Took it the other way. Young QB sold on a route before the snap.



Ryan Wood
@ByRyanWood

Jordan Love finished 5-8 for roughly 32 yards, 2 TDs and INT in red-zone period. Hit Watson on corner route from 10-yard line on one TD. Threaded a pass to Jayden Reed for 5-yard touchdown on stop route in right seam on other.

Lone pick on screen to the left from 3.



Matt Schneidman
@mattschneidman

������FIGHT������

Multiple swings thrown. I saw Elgton Jenkins in there. Runyan and Doubs were on the ground. Didn’t see Bengals in the mix but the skirmish lasted a while.


Ryan Wood
@ByRyanWood

Jordan Love drops a 51-yard TD to Romeo Doubs down right sideline on 3rd & 6 against Cam Taylor-Britt. Didn’t miss that deep ball. Let Doubs run under it, and he did the rest.


Matt Schneidman
@mattschneidman

Elgton Jenkins vs. D.J. Reader in a scuffle now with the play far away.

Jenkins swings at Reader’s head and connects.

Jenkins is out of the drill now. OL coach Luke Butkus escorts him out..

[Joemailman]

Seems like Doubs had a good day.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1689362669453651969

[Joemailman]

Bill Huber
@BillHuberNFL

Defense wins 2-minute. Offense gets a long FG try from Carlson but he’s short from somewhere around 58-60.




Ryan Wood
@ByRyanWood

Jordan Love was 4-7 in 2-minute drill, one incompletion a clock kill. Had Romeo Doubs deep down right side vs. Sidney Jones IV, but Doubs couldn’t bring it in. Not a bad ball.

Love hit Samori Toure for first down in deep in route, converting 3rd & 3. Otherwise, lot of checks.



Rob Demovsky
@RobDemovsky

Both defenses for GB and CIN win 1s vs. 1s two-minute drill.

Anders Carlson short on about a 58-yard FG.

Bengals’ O ran out of time.

Carlson goes 7 for 10 on kicks today. Long make was from 51. Also missed from 56.

That’s it for the joint practice after 2hrs and 6mins.

[texaspackerbacker]

Good Reading. I'm getting hopeful Love is gonna be all right, and I'm . Glad to read the D was decent, but this probably wasn't against anything complicated or spphisticated that might trip up Barry. Jury is still out on the kicker, but reason to hope.

"Matt Schneidman
@mattschneidman

Elgton Jenkins vs. D.J. Reader in a scuffle now with the play far away.

Jenkins swings at Reader’s head and connects.

Jenkins is out of the drill now. OL coach Luke Butkus escorts him out."


I doubt our guy with the last name, Butkis, was telling Jenkins to back off and be gentle hahahahaha.

[ThunderDan]

Good Reading. I'm getting hopeful Love is gonna be all right, and I'm . Glad to read the D was decent, but this probably wasn't against anything complicated or spphisticated that might trip up Barry. Jury is still out on the kicker, but reason to hope.

"Matt Schneidman
@mattschneidman

Elgton Jenkins vs. D.J. Reader in a scuffle now with the play far away.

Jenkins swings at Reader’s head and connects.

Jenkins is out of the drill now. OL coach Luke Butkus escorts him out."


I doubt our guy with the last name, Butkis, was telling Jenkins to back off and be gentle hahahahaha.

That media sucking puke!!!! How can you read that shit and think it is real!!!

[run pMc]

That media sucking puke!!!! How can you read that shit and think it is real!!!

LOL funny!
Seriously, Schneidman is pretty good.

The Bengals didn't have Burrow, and without him their offense sounded like it was pretty inept. I'm not sure how good of a measuring stick it is for the defense. I don't think GB's defense is bad, but I'm still waiting to see if it's good.

Sounds like the OL had some trouble with Reader and Hendrickson, but I know they were rotating guys and had a couple of the 2nd stringer OL in there with Love for a bit. Sean Rhyan has been getting some positive reviews in camp which is nice to hear.

The book on Doubs is that he has trouble with press, I wonder if he looks great in camp/practice because he sees less of it then vs. games? I know some have commented his release looks better, so maybe he'll be able to fight press this year. It's common for young WRs to struggle with it. Speaking of common issues with young WRs, I'm a little concerned with all the drops by the receivers. I think they'll eventually figure it out, but it may take a year or two. Drops are usually a fixable issue. Love's not the most accurate guy, but it also sounds like some of his on-target throws have been dropped.

[texaspackerbacker]

That media sucking puke!!!! How can you read that shit and think it is real!!!

They don't do too bad a job when they stick to the facts and leave their God damned speculation and opinions out of it. Nobody should get paid for that shit - they're no better at it than any of us.

[QBME]

They don't do too bad a job when they stick to the facts and leave their God damned speculation and opinions out of it. Nobody should get paid for that shit - they're no better at it than any of us.

We sometimes don’t agree on stuff, but on this we are totally aligned

[MadtownPacker]

Seems like Doubs had a good day.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1689362669453651969Seems Love throws a sweet pass. Very catchable, caught my attention last year. His throws are decisive and trusting of the receiver to make the play for it.

Shit even Tex is onboard now (as we all knew would happen:lol:). He predicted Packers will have a better record than jets!

[Rutnstrut]

The cap issues from the last 2 years were a result of Gute going all in... Im glad they didnt go further because Love would not be given a fair chance at evaluation this year with a handicapped team.


That was far from all in. But it's as far as the Packers are willing to go anymore.

[bobblehead]

LOL funny!
Seriously, Schneidman is pretty good.

The Bengals didn't have Burrow, and without him their offense sounded like it was pretty inept. I'm not sure how good of a measuring stick it is for the defense. I don't think GB's defense is bad, but I'm still waiting to see if it's good.

Sounds like the OL had some trouble with Reader and Hendrickson, but I know they were rotating guys and had a couple of the 2nd stringer OL in there with Love for a bit. Sean Rhyan has been getting some positive reviews in camp which is nice to hear.

The book on Doubs is that he has trouble with press, I wonder if he looks great in camp/practice because he sees less of it then vs. games? I know some have commented his release looks better, so maybe he'll be able to fight press this year. It's common for young WRs to struggle with it. Speaking of common issues with young WRs, I'm a little concerned with all the drops by the receivers. I think they'll eventually figure it out, but it may take a year or two. Drops are usually a fixable issue. Love's not the most accurate guy, but it also sounds like some of his on-target throws have been dropped.

This time last year we were reading about how quick and in shape Amari Rodgers looked as I recall.

[bobblehead]

That was far from all in. But it's as far as the Packers are willing to go anymore.

I guess we could also have no picks for 3 years with nothing to show for it. That would have satisfied you (no...it probably wouldn't)

[call_me_ishmael]

At least they would have went for it and put it all on the line. Life is about big moments - the Packers were afraid to go all in and try to get that big moment. It is a major bummer IMO.

How great would it have been to make memories with your friends and family during a big super bowl party? They had 3 legit shots in 2011, 2014 and 2020 and they never made it :(

[run pMc]

Sigh. They did go all in. They are paying for it this year.

Cap spending and FA signings don't guarantee a SB.

You could argue Ted didn't go "all in" because he wasn't a fan of FA spending, but they definitely went all in for 2020 and 2021. They had an MVP QB, Davante, A.Jones, Kenny Clark, Smith Bros, mid-year Mercilus, Jaylon Smith... they were trying everything and fell short. Sometimes you go all-in and someone else has a better hand (or better luck).

[call_me_ishmael]

I disagree they went all in. They went mostly in. They didn't go Denver 2013-2015 for example. They definitely could have shifted more money around and drafted immediate contributors. That is as in as they went since 2014 with Peppers. Man, they were so close. Having another pass catcher would have made a huge difference in that Tampa game.

[bobblehead]

At least they would have went for it and put it all on the line. Life is about big moments - the Packers were afraid to go all in and try to get that big moment. It is a major bummer IMO.

How great would it have been to make memories with your friends and family during a big super bowl party? They had 3 legit shots in 2011, 2014 and 2020 and they never made it :(

Again, I recall meeting Jeffery Lurie's wife. She laughed and said "owners and fans always believe they are JUST ONE MORE PLAYER away". Its a joke of course because you assume that if only we had gone even MORE all in we would have won it. There is no evidence to support your theory as if it were true every owner would go all in every year and win it every year. 32 Lombardi Trophies per year. YEA. Otherwise known as participation trophies.

[Joemailman]

If Brandon Bostick doesn't try to field that onside kick, if Bakhtiari doesn't tear his ACL in New Years Eve practice in 2020, if Packers get punt off in 2021, would they have been all in?

[run pMc]

LOL good one!

CMI, we'll have to agree to disagree. Giving a QB, LT, and RB top dollar, plus loading up on FA and basically pulling every lever they could to get cap space at the risk of 2023 and beyond is going all-in. Bahktiari tearing up his knee weeks after his extension hurt them. Denver lost to BAL in the 2013 playoffs, got curbstomped in the 2014 SB, and won the SB in early 2015 in spite of Peyton, not because of him. They had a very good young defense led by Von Miller, and a strong running game...and they faced Cam Newton.
I have trouble understanding how extending your QB with a $59M bonus isn't going all in.

[call_me_ishmael]

Again, I recall meeting Jeffery Lurie's wife. She laughed and said "owners and fans always believe they are JUST ONE MORE PLAYER away". Its a joke of course because you assume that if only we had gone even MORE all in we would have won it. There is no evidence to support your theory as if it were true every owner would go all in every year and win it every year. 32 Lombardi Trophies per year. YEA. Otherwise known as participation trophies.

I like that quote but man I would have liked to see them at least try. It is just unfortunate. I don't think every team can go all-in every year. You have to make long term sacrifices to truly go all in. That's why the Broncos has been ass since those Peyton years. It'd be worth it to get the ring though.

[call_me_ishmael]

LOL good one!

I have trouble understanding how extending your QB with a $59M bonus isn't going all in.

I agree they paid all of those players and treated Rodgers well but I think they could have done more. Like... what about signing OBJ or another weapon during the season? Remember they were nitting over a few mil? Coulda made the difference to getting to the big game potentially. Or what about bro receiver in SF - he may have been the difference against the Bucs or the Niners. And what about Justin Jefferson - if they liked him they should have moved up and got him before the Vikes did. They were one That Dude TM away. Who cares about future picks when you are one That Dude TM away!

[call_me_ishmael]

If Brandon Bostick doesn't try to field that onside kick, if Bakhtiari doesn't tear his ACL in New Years Eve practice in 2020, if Packers get punt off in 2021, would they have been all in?

I dont recall the situation in 2014 as far as roster, etc, but i do think most acknowledged they were gonna lose some dudes after that team. Maybe not all in, but man, that 2014 squad was the best Rodgers team IMO.

I just feel like they could have done more, especially in 2021. It just sucks to have not got one. Hopefully they get one with Love.

[Fritz]

Hey, did anybody see if Daniel Whelan punted in the exhibition game, and if so, how did he do? More importantly, was he the holder for any kicks? I have a feeling if the guy is a good holder that O'Donnell will be out of a job.

[Joemailman]

Hey, did anybody see if Daniel Whelan punted in the exhibition game, and if so, how did he do? More importantly, was he the holder for any kicks? I have a feeling if the guy is a good holder that O'Donnell will be out of a job.

He punted for 42 and 43 yards. I know the first one wasn't very good but coverage was good holding it to 5 yard return.He and O'Donnell split the holding duties. O'Donnell was the holder on the 2 missed extra points.

[bobblehead]

If Brandon Bostick doesn't try to field that onside kick, if Bakhtiari doesn't tear his ACL in New Years Eve practice in 2020, if Packers get punt off in 2021, would they have been all in?

If Micah Hyde doesn't let a Krapernick pass slip through his hands in what would have been a pick 6....

If, but, however. Bottom line, if you don't win the trophy every year some people will claim you didn't go "all in" enough. Ironically the chefs have won 2 trophies cuz they went all in....not because they have the absolute best QB in the game. And teams that win it with bad QBs don't count cuz the theory is that you must have a great QB to compete. Show me the theory and I'll bend the evidence to support it.

[bobblehead]

I like that quote but man I would have liked to see them at least try. It is just unfortunate. I don't think every team can go all-in every year. You have to make long term sacrifices to truly go all in. That's why the Broncos has been ass since those Peyton years. It'd be worth it to get the ring though.

Actually the broncos went all in to get Russell Wilson...the missing piece. They just didn't go "all in" enough I guess. They needed to trade the 2024-2026 drafts as well and pay another guy 30% of the cap. That would have gotten it done.

[bobblehead]

This year the Jets went "all in". When they lock us into both picks next year to land Bak they will be even more "all in". We, on the other hand, are the recipients of the "all in" moves. Lets see who wins and Owl sooner.

[run pMc]

Ironically the chefs have won 2 trophies cuz they went all in....not because they have the absolute best QB in the game.

Love this hahaha
Yeah that Tyreek Hill trade really screamed 'all in'.
Mahomes can pull off losing his best receiver, Rodgers can't, therefore no way is Rodgers the GOAT. Yes, I'm joking. Travis Kelce is a monster.

[smuggler]

Fortunately Mahomes was still in his early prime - young/dynamic/athletic, had an elite coach, and a Hall of Fame tight end. It's not exactly apples to apples with twilight Rodgers.

Things might have been different in Rodgers' career here with a coach a little smarter than ol' pigfucker McCarthy or if he has been less stubborn. But that's part of what made Rodgers special - his indignant stubbornness. I appreciate him for that, even when he's playing the space cadet.

[call_me_ishmael]

This year the Jets went "all in". When they lock us into both picks next year to land Bak they will be even more "all in". We, on the other hand, are the recipients of the "all in" moves. Lets see who wins and Owl sooner.

The Jets didn't go all in this year. I totally disagree with that. Broncos sorta to get Wilson, but even then not really - they have money to spend just no draft picks.

[run pMc]

If they haven't gone all-in, they're pretty darn close. Redoing contracts, including Rodgers, to fit under the cap, signing a bunch of FA players (Lazard, Mecole Hardman, etc.), trading for Chuck Clark. They made a number of roster moves and are tight against the cap.

Also: bear in mind that 'tight against the cap' doesn't mean you spend every last dollar of cap space up front. Every team needs cap space to sign players mid-year, cover player incentives earned, settle with injured players, etc. So they often show as having at least $5-15M in cap space but in reality it's been allocated for such expenses.

[run pMc]

FYI news stories did break that the Packers did kick the tires on OBJ, but he didn't like their offer, based on money/playing time -- apparently, they told him he would mostly be playing on 3rd downs in the slot. They didn't have the money he wanted, and I think they felt just fine about Lazard in the slot anyway.

[run pMc]

With Tyler Davis out, who is their top blocking TE? Do they just go 6OL or hope the rookies can at least give sufficient effort?
Gute might have to swing a trade or work the cutdowns to find someone. Davis also played a LOT of ST snaps for Bisaccia.

[Fritz]

With Tyler Davis out, who is their top blocking TE? Do they just go 6OL or hope the rookies can at least give sufficient effort?
Gute might have to swing a trade or work the cutdowns to find someone. Davis also played a LOT of ST snaps for Bisaccia.

Would you really want to give up any assets to speak of for a blocking TE who plays special teams? I dunno. Maybe you could give up, say, Toure, if you think either Melton or Heath is better or as good, and get someone else's seventh-round blocking TE. But that's a skill set you might be able to find on the street during cutdowns.

[Joemailman]

Would you really want to give up any assets to speak of for a blocking TE who plays special teams? I dunno. Maybe you could give up, say, Toure, if you think either Melton or Heath is better or as good, and get someone else's seventh-round blocking TE. But that's a skill set you might be able to find on the street during cutdowns.

That's what I think they will wait for. With every team having a 90 man roster right now, there's not much out there. There should be some vets with ST experience after cutdowns though.

[texaspackerbacker]

They better not give away Toure even though it seems we now have a wealth of WRs with Heath and Wicks also looking so good.

It was strange to keep four TEs as the Packers have done recently. We still have three if you count Deguara. Also, the 6'8" kid from Nebraska, Allen, might be a keeper. Kraft, of course, was supposed to be the blocking TE.

And special teams? It would seem more natural to stock them with defense guys anyway. And we likely will keep a 4th RB this year who should help in that area.

Bottom line: you can always find adequate bottom of the roster players if you need them - which we really don't.

[run pMc]

Agree. With Big Dog in CHI there's nobody else I can think of, and trading for someone would be a panic move they won't make.
And no, OJ Howard is probably not coming in. Dude is a big name but has had more chances than production and isn't known for his great blocking.

[run pMc]

Toure is locked in as WR4, he's not going anywhere. Same for Wicks, he is probably WR5. They have a lot of unproven talent, every team has WRs they love so if they cut Heath to get him on the PS I'm not that worried. If they had to do cutdowns today Heath is probably on the roster at WR6 and Melton/Dubose are cut and try to make the PS.

Austin Allen [I]might[I] be able to fill in on ST, he hasn't done it much but he showed a little vs CIN. Kraft's blocking was not where it needs to be yet; blocking in the pros is different vs. FBS and he often ran routes for SDSU. Allen is still pretty raw as a prospect and that TE room is now very very young. Deguara is basically a FB the way they have him designated and working separately from the other TEs in camp. I think they will play the waiting game with roster cutdowns and hope these young guys can get better each week. This isn't a Super Bowl or bust year, they seem to be willing to live with some growing pains.

[Joemailman]

Ryan Wood
@ByRyanWood

Kenny Clark, one of #Packers few starters who didn’t play in preseason opener at Cincy, is not practicing today because of a back injury.



Andy Herman
@AndyHermanNFL

Yosh - Jenkins - Myers - Runyan Tom OL to start team.

Van Ness and Valentine with ones as was Owens again.

Love fires very high for Reed on the first play off play action.

Short run by Jones followed by a big time run by Dillon up the middle.




Ryan Wood
@ByRyanWood

Jordan Love completed a deep fade on the left side to Romeo Doubs against Rasul Douglas, who turned back at the ref and was sure Doubs didn’t get both feet inbounds. Play happened right in front of me. Douglas had a point — looked like Doubs’ right foot was out — but ruled catch.



Andy Herman
@AndyHermanNFL

Love just hit Watson on a deep out for about 30 off play action. Great route and throw. He was wide open by NFL standards.

Taylor for a couple. McDuffie with the stop.

Timeout offense. #2 offense was disjointed.

Colby Wooden just exploded for a would be sack on Clifford. Wow.




Ryan Wood
@ByRyanWood

Nice body control from #Packers rookie Tucker Kraft in 1v1. Ran an out route against Jonathan Owens. Pass was behind Kraft, but he spun in air and caught it over Owens. Athletic play for a big tight end.



Andy Herman
@AndyHermanNFL

Love missed Doubs on a deep crosser. Had him open. Wants that one back.

Justin Hollins explodes in the backfield for a would be tfl. Quay also did a great job getting sideline to sideline on the play.

Nice cutback by Jones. Runyan just slammed his helmet in disgust. Not sure if he was hurt. He seems ok.

Clifford to Wicks on a slant. Slightly high but I’d count that as a drop for Wicks. Nice read by 8.

And ANOTHER fumbled exchange. This time Hanson and McGough.



Rob Demovsky
@RobDemovsky

Uh oh, Anders Carlson just missed another PAT wide right. Missed two of those Friday at Cincy.

But was good on FGs from 41 & 44.



Andy Herman
@AndyHermanNFL

Back to team. Runayn is back in so he’s fine.

Wooden taking Kenny’s place on the line today.

Great read and throw from Love to Doubs, but dropped by Romeo.

Clifford to Dubose short.

Love screen to Dillon. Great hustle by Wyatt for the stop.

Clifford to Wilson on the screen with more success against the 2s..

[Sparkey]

Rasheed Walker practicing at LT with the ones. Something to watch. If Walker takes over as primary backup at LT, it makes it easier to put Tom at center.

[bobblehead]

The Jets didn't go all in this year. I totally disagree with that. Broncos sorta to get Wilson, but even then not really - they have money to spend just no draft picks.

So by your definition you are only all in if you win the Owl. Otherwise you could have made "one more move" to be more "all in". Got it.

[call_me_ishmael]

So by your definition you are only all in if you win the Owl. Otherwise you could have made "one more move" to be more "all in". Got it.

What move did they make to go all-in other than trading for a QB? They have holes all over their roster that could be patched. Maybe they will patch them now that Rodgers took a paycut and they have some financial flexibility. Maybe next year they go all-in.

To answer your question, no, but I think going all-in is pretty clearly when you are saying "we're going for it all this year and then we're gonna blow it up" like the Rams did. Packers never signed vets like the Rams did. Jets didn't either.

[Joemailman]

Rasheed Walker practicing at LT with the ones. Something to watch. If Walker takes over as primary backup at LT, it makes it easier to put Tom at center.

Walker's an interesting guy. He was pegged as a possible 3rd round pick in 2022 who slid to the 7th round. Couple of reasons given were some meniscus issues and not being in great shape at the combine. He did not participate at the combine other than measurements and weigh in. I think he might be better suited to RT than LT, but either way he gives Packers some flexibility on where they play Tom.

Larry McCarren did a breakdown today on Walker's performance last Friday night. https://www.packers.com/video/rock-report-deeper-than-deep-x4008

[Joemailman]

Ryan Wood
@ByRyanWood

Seventh-round rookie Carrington Valentine continues to turn heads. Just jumped in front of a Jordan Love pass to Romeo Doubs on the right sideline. Valentine intercepted it and went the other way roughly 80 yards for a pick-6.

It's Carrington Valentine's world, and we're just living in it.

[sharpe1027]

What move did they make to go all-in other than trading for a QB? They have holes all over their roster that could be patched. Maybe they will patch them now that Rodgers took a paycut and they have some financial flexibility. Maybe next year they go all-in.

To answer your question, no, but I think going all-in is pretty clearly when you are saying "we're going for it all this year and then we're gonna blow it up" like the Rams did. Packers never signed vets like the Rams did. Jets didn't either.

Rams didn't go all in. They still had holes to fill and could have done more

[run pMc]

LOL
Every team has holes. Rams went all-in like few ever do - mortgaging several seasons to barely win vs. CIN.
You can argue if the Jets have gone all-in or not, but they've certainly done a lot - trading multiple high picks for a QB, replacing their OC, signing Lazard to $44M deal, signing MeCole Hardman, Cobb, Amos, trading for Clark, redoing contracts, giving Quinnen Williams a 4/$96M deal, etc. They have less cap space than GB does.

Another way to look at it is amount of dead money -- GB's dead money accounts for just over 25% of their cap. LAR's is even worse at 32% TB's is almost 33% and they stunk last year. SF's dead money account for over 7% of their cap. Cap spending usually means you either suck at managing your cap or you're going all-in, but does not guarantee a win.

Anyway, enough about the Jets or other teams. This is the training camp thread. What do they do with Rasul and Valentine after Stokes comes of the PUP list?

[MadScientist]

At this point it's a fair chance that Stokes starts the season on the PUP list, so they can decide later, or let injuries dictate what to do.

[KYPack]

For several seasons, the Packers turn up a training camp warrior. Usually an OLB that goes crazy in the pre-season, makes a splash, but disappears in the regular season. I went to the game Friday and spotted a guy who I've been interested in...Brenton Cox. He is an OLB and a college free agent. He splashed like crazy in the game. 3 QB hurries and a deflection that turned into a pick. He is 6-4 250 country strong with a nasty disposition.

Cox has a hell of a backstory. He's a GA boy and was rated in the top 20 nationally of high school prospects. He got a scholarship to GA and played on those stacked Dog defenses. He even started a game or two. He also got tossed out of school for fighting in the locker room, maybe fighting with a coach, and weed. Florida snapped him up and he played 3 years there. He had a 4 sack game vs Fla ST. He also got thrown out of school there. More fights in the locker room, a fight with a coach, but I guess he learned how to hide his weed better.

The kid is an asshole, but a tough player. Let's keep him. This D could use a few assholes on it.

[QBME]

For several seasons, the Packers turn up a training camp warrior. Usually an OLB that goes crazy in the pre-season, makes a splash, but disappears in the regular season. I went to the game Friday and spotted a guy who I've been interested in...Brenton Cox. He is an OLB and a college free agent. He splashed like crazy in the game. 3 QB hurries and a deflection that turned into a pick. He is 6-4 250 country strong with a nasty disposition.

Cox has a hell of a backstory. He's a GA boy and was rated in the top 20 nationally of high school prospects. He got a scholarship to GA and played on those stacked Dog defenses. He even started a game or two. He also got tossed out of school for fighting in the locker room, maybe fighting with a coach, and weed. Florida snapped him up and he played 3 years there. He had a 4 sack game vs Fla ST. He also got thrown out of school there. More fights in the locker room, a fight with a coach, but I guess he learned how to hide his weed better.

The kid is an asshole, but a tough player. Let's keep him. This D could use a few assholes on it.

I don't know x's from o's but I know you know
Keep the asshole, maybe Joe Barry can develop a freaking attitude.

[texaspackerbacker]

I've got high hopes for Brenton Cox also.

Glad to hear Rasheed Walker is getting some work too. I'm not as thrilled with Tom as a lot of ya'all are, and I definitely don't want Meyers replaced at Center. Having Tom as a backup all across the line is good, though, considering how Newman stuck it up and Hanson is pretty worthless. I thought Caleb Jones looked good in the game, also that other huge guy, Telfort. Any news on Tenuta, the 6'8" guy who was carted off but supposedly got good marks from that rating scheme?

As for the TE group, Deguara may be getting fullback reps, but he has plenty of experience to be the 3rd TE. And Austin Allen may be better than his college rep, considering he got flawed coaching at Nebraska. Kraft had a bad game, but I'm pretty sure he will still be ok. No need to bring in another TE.

I'm surprised we don't have a thread yet about guessing the 53 man roster.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

It's Carrington Valentine's world, and we're just living in it.

Love throws a rock to Romeo, which Valentine picks off for 6. I am straight as Cupid’s arrow, but I am sensing romance in the air.

Shall I compare thee to a summer’s day?
Thou art more lovely and more temperate:
Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May,
And summer’s lease hath all too short a date;

[run pMc]

Brenton Cox definitely has some asshole to him, and I think you need to have a few guys like that on defense. (Honestly, doesn't hurt to have one on your OL too). As long as they aren't doing criminal stuff or being a locker cancer, and keep the assholishness to the playing field, that is. He would have been a R4 pick if not for the major character concerns. When I watched Florida games, he often stood out. I think he's undisciplined but I also think he's knows he's on a short leash and this is probably his only/best shot in the NFL. I don't know that he'll crack the roster -- the OLB group is pretty deep -- but I could easily see him making the PS or getting scooped up by another team. He's played pretty well against the 2's and 3's and has some upside.

And yeah, Carrington Valentine is having a camp. Reports are that he's not quite Sam Shields rookie year good, but he's not far off. R7 picks are like lottery tickets, it sounds like they might have hit big on that one.

Also hearing good things about Grant Dubose stacking a couple of good days in camp. I think they keep 6 WRs, but he and Malik Heath might give them pause about keeping 7.

Finally, there are whispers that GB staff think they got a good one with Luke Musgrave. I hope so, and that the kid can stay healthy. He's big and fast, and they are feeding him the ball so they are going to feature him. It sounds like he's a mismatch problem already, so if/when he puts it all together he could be a stud.

[Fritz]

Brenton Cox definitely has some asshole to him, and I think you need to have a few guys like that on defense. (Honestly, doesn't hurt to have one on your OL too). As long as they aren't doing criminal stuff or being a locker cancer, and keep the assholishness to the playing field, that is. He would have been a R4 pick if not for the major character concerns. When I watched Florida games, he often stood out. I think he's undisciplined but I also think he's knows he's on a short leash and this is probably his only/best shot in the NFL. I don't know that he'll crack the roster -- the OLB group is pretty deep -- but I could easily see him making the PS or getting scooped up by another team. He's played pretty well against the 2's and 3's and has some upside.

And yeah, Carrington Valentine is having a camp. Reports are that he's not quite Sam Shields rookie year good, but he's not far off. R7 picks are like lottery tickets, it sounds like they might have hit big on that one.

Also hearing good things about Grant Dubose stacking a couple of good days in camp. I think they keep 6 WRs, but he and Malik Heath might give them pause about keeping 7.

Finally, there are whispers that GB staff think they got a good one with Luke Musgrave. I hope so, and that the kid can stay healthy. He's big and fast, and they are feeding him the ball so they are going to feature him. It sounds like he's a mismatch problem already, so if/when he puts it all together he could be a stud.


And is there a better name for a bad-ass guy than “Cox”? Just read a puff piece about how the Packers - offense and defense - are more physical this year. We’ll see. And yes, lots of OLB depth, but if the kid can excel on ST, maybe they keep him. Lots of depth at OLB, at WR, at CB, at RB. And Jonathon Ford may be playing himself into the DL conversation. If another team has depth at guard or center or (blocking) TE, mebbe there could be a trade. I’d add safety, but all our safeties are already pretty much just depth guys. Next year’s draft, for that position.

[texaspackerbacker]

Valentine reminds me more of Ladarius Gunter than Sam Shields, and I say that as somebody who had a high opinion of Gunter. He (and Valentine) seem like overachievers - very good man coverage guys without elite speed and with limited ceilings.

Glad to hear Jonathan Ford is doing well. The DLineman who has looked good to me is Colby Wooden.

[MadScientist]

Valentine has elite speed and explosion scores. Gunter had very poor grades. Valentine and Shields had very similar numbers.

[run pMc]

Valentine ran a 4.44 40, Gunter was much slower.
Gunter was a bigger corner, but Valentine has longer arms and is a much much better athlete.

https://twitter.com/MathBomb/status/1643042324442755073
https://ras.football/2020/01/06/ladarius-gunter-ras/

Gunter was put in a tough spot in 2016 when GB basically had no speed at corner and had to cover prime Julio in the NFCCG. i thought he was a decent player who gave his all, but that was a bad matchup.
Valentine is known in college for being a press-and-bail guy and not great in zone or vs. double-moves, we'll see how Joe Barry uses him.

Apparently the new secondary coach is not having them line up so far off, which would be good. Defense needs to play well this year, the QB can't be expected to bail them out and they have a lot of talent.

[Joemailman]

Valentine has elite speed and explosion scores. Gunter had very poor grades. Valentine and Shields had very similar numbers.

Sam had a slightly faster 40 time, although Valentine's 10 yards split was slightly better. Sam at top speed was one of the fastest NFL players I ever saw. I doubt Valentine can match that, but he sure is explosive, as Jordan Love found out in practice yesterday.

[texaspackerbacker]

For the record, I'm NOT knocking Valentine who I really like, just saying I had a higher opinion of Gunter than most did.

Glad to hear the new secondary coach has maybe improved things. I'm still worried about Joe Barry's all out pressure D that ALMOST gets to the QB. Likely most teams will handle it better than the Burrow-less Bengals did in preseason.

[MadScientist]

Gunter was limited by his physical tools, but was a gamer and gave everything he had. But the lack of tools was why he went from starting CB in the NFCC to out of a job the next year.

Valentine will only be limited by himself. He has all the necessary physical tools.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

I'm still worried about Joe Barry's all out pressure D that ALMOST gets to the QB.

Anything but the vanilla ice ice baby 4-men rush of Barry’s first two seasons. Blitz all day, yo. And just put J-Alex on an island and let him do his thing, cos, dude floats like Deion and stings like Wu-Tang.

[Sparkey]

Brenton Cox definitely has some asshole to him, and I think you need to have a few guys like that on defense. (Honestly, doesn't hurt to have one on your OL too). As long as they aren't doing criminal stuff or being a locker cancer, and keep the assholishness to the playing field, that is. He would have been a R4 pick if not for the major character concerns. When I watched Florida games, he often stood out. I think he's undisciplined but I also think he's knows he's on a short leash and this is probably his only/best shot in the NFL. I don't know that he'll crack the roster -- the OLB group is pretty deep -- but I could easily see him making the PS or getting scooped up by another team. He's played pretty well against the 2's and 3's and has some upside.

And yeah, Carrington Valentine is having a camp. Reports are that he's not quite Sam Shields rookie year good, but he's not far off. R7 picks are like lottery tickets, it sounds like they might have hit big on that one.

Also hearing good things about Grant Dubose stacking a couple of good days in camp. I think they keep 6 WRs, but he and Malik Heath might give them pause about keeping 7.

Finally, there are whispers that GB staff think they got a good one with Luke Musgrave. I hope so, and that the kid can stay healthy. He's big and fast, and they are feeding him the ball so they are going to feature him. It sounds like he's a mismatch problem already, so if/when he puts it all together he could be a stud.

I have always read/been told that the biggest challenge for a college TE is learning all the nuances of the position in the NFL. I believe having a father that lettered 2 years at QB in college and an uncle who played QB in the NFL has helped him immensely.

[Fritz]

Rasheed Walker practicing at LT with the ones. Something to watch. If Walker takes over as primary backup at LT, it makes it easier to put Tom at center.

Ienjoy the ups-and-downs of camp, so I was glad to see Walker is making progress. I've also read that other players are really making a push - Jonathon Ford, Anthony Johnson, even Shemale Jean-Claude-Van-Damme, apparently. Some guys are in the running to make the team because of specific needs - a blocking TE, a third-down RB who can play well on ST and block well, a corner who can play the slot. Some guys are in the running to make the team because they are showing too much skill to be left off. Daniel Whelan may be in that group - as I've said, if the dude can show he's a reasonable holder, then why not?

Those are fun stories to follow.

[bobblehead]

Walker's an interesting guy. He was pegged as a possible 3rd round pick in 2022 who slid to the 7th round. Couple of reasons given were some meniscus issues and not being in great shape at the combine. He did not participate at the combine other than measurements and weigh in. I think he might be better suited to RT than LT, but either way he gives Packers some flexibility on where they play Tom.

Larry McCarren did a breakdown today on Walker's performance last Friday night. https://www.packers.com/video/rock-report-deeper-than-deep-x4008

Walker probably has the skill set to play LT or RT. He definitely would have been a 3rd or better if he hadn't been hurt. I actually expected to hear more of him in this camp, but glad that the chatter is starting now. He was a factor in my love for last years draft. Guy is a legit NFL talent. I don't expect, but wouldn't be shocked if our OL next year was Yosh, Elgton, Tom, Runyan, Walker (or the tackles could land opposite). Again, I don't expect it, but its not impossible either.

[bobblehead]

For several seasons, the Packers turn up a training camp warrior. Usually an OLB that goes crazy in the pre-season, makes a splash, but disappears in the regular season. I went to the game Friday and spotted a guy who I've been interested in...Brenton Cox. He is an OLB and a college free agent. He splashed like crazy in the game. 3 QB hurries and a deflection that turned into a pick. He is 6-4 250 country strong with a nasty disposition.

Cox has a hell of a backstory. He's a GA boy and was rated in the top 20 nationally of high school prospects. He got a scholarship to GA and played on those stacked Dog defenses. He even started a game or two. He also got tossed out of school for fighting in the locker room, maybe fighting with a coach, and weed. Florida snapped him up and he played 3 years there. He had a 4 sack game vs Fla ST. He also got thrown out of school there. More fights in the locker room, a fight with a coach, but I guess he learned how to hide his weed better.

The kid is an asshole, but a tough player. Let's keep him. This D could use a few assholes on it.

I read somewhere "he could have went in the 5th...." That was ridiculous. If not for his problems he was a lock to go in the 2nd. Top 20 guy, successful in the SEC in 2 programs when on the field. Yea, thats a 5th rounder. Thats why I don't read much "pundit" crap regarding the draft. I am tempering my excitement over cox after the Kylin Hill experience. That guy was/is so talented, but a major head case.

[bobblehead]

I have always read/been told that the biggest challenge for a college TE is learning all the nuances of the position in the NFL. I believe having a father that lettered 2 years at QB in college and an uncle who played QB in the NFL has helped him immensely.

I agree on that. He has a head start on most guys coming out.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

I agree on that. He has a head start on most guys coming out.

Poor man’s Jimmy Graham.

[Joemailman]

Poor man’s Jimmy Graham.

Nah. Looks like Musgrave is at least willing to try to block.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Nah. Looks like Musgrave is at least willing to try to block.

Jimmy tried to block, too. He wasn’t too good at it, but he did try.

Packers would be better off with Musgraves being a poor man’s Jimmy Graham than a rich man’s Mercedes Lewis.

[call_me_ishmael]

I read somewhere "he could have went in the 5th...." That was ridiculous. If not for his problems he was a lock to go in the 2nd. Top 20 guy, successful in the SEC in 2 programs when on the field. Yea, thats a 5th rounder. Thats why I don't read much "pundit" crap regarding the draft. I am tempering my excitement over cox after the Kylin Hill experience. That guy was/is so talented, but a major head case.

Maybe, but it is also to remember that he doesn't have the measurable that NFL teams crave since the NFL is different from college. Although I would agree that success in the SEC trumps that for me personally and shows you're explosive, fast, etc even if it doesn't show up at the combine.

The Packers had that TE from Oregon many moons ago that was in a similar spot. Elite talent but a bum off the field. He washed out and didn't make the team 'cause bums gonna bum.

[MadScientist]

Maybe, but it is also to remember that he doesn't have the measurable that NFL teams crave since the NFL is different from college. Although I would agree that success in the SEC trumps that for me personally and shows you're explosive, fast, etc even if it doesn't show up at the combine.

The Packers had that TE from Oregon many moons ago that was in a similar spot. Elite talent but a bum off the field. He washed out and didn't make the team 'cause bums gonna bum.

Jamal Reynolds had success in the SEC.

[call_me_ishmael]

Jamal Reynolds had success in the SEC.

ACC :)

[call_me_ishmael]

If the Packers do end up trading Bak, I think that'd be a short sighted move, but if they traded him a #1 in say the 26 or 27 draft, I'd be good with it.

[bobblehead]

If the Packers do end up trading Bak, I think that'd be a short sighted move, but if they traded him a #1 in say the 26 or 27 draft, I'd be good with it.

I disagree. Its the long game move unless you are talking about Love. Its possible that keeping him helps Love succeed and would be good for his psyche long term, but moving him for a pick and clearing his salary from the books after next season is the better long play for the franchise. If Bak were 100% right now I would say he is good enough to have 5 good years left. Given they way he manages his knee and who he is, I see him playing out next year because $20 million, but I don't think he plays a snap beyond 2024. He won't say it out loud, but I think mentally he is done with football and just collecting the last of his money. If we can land a 2nd I'd be thrilled.

Gutes went all in, and now we have to retool. He turned Adams and Rodgers into some very nice picks (young players). Bak is at the end of the line and if we can turn him into another pick, its the right time to do it.

[run pMc]

Agree you want to keep Bakhtiari to protect the new QB as he learns. This is a development year for a young team, and a solid OL will help. No point in having a bunch of good young receiving talent if you don't have time to throw to them.
I think trading him before the end of the season would be shortsighted for that reason UNLESS they are clearly out of the playoff hunt AND they know what they have with Jordan Love AND they have someone who can step right in at LT. Moving him in the offseason seems more likely given the cap relief they'd get... they reworked his contract this year already so they probably keep him for this season at least. I could see a world where they keep him and let the contract play out and let him explore FA after that.

What happens behind him is far more interesting to me at the moment. I think Njiman is likely the backup swing tackle and will play if/when Bakh's knee flares up or he needs a break from a turf field. His contract is up and I think they let him walk. He's on a relatively cheap deal ($4.3M) but will get money somewhere and I think they like the guys developing behind him (Caleb Jones, Luke Tenuta, Rasheed Walker). Another offseason of development and they could slide one of them in and they'd have a cheaper player and more control over the contract. The constant here is Tom - I think he could play C just fine but I think he's more valuable at OT. Next year's draft class will probably include 2-3 OL. GB is unusual because it looks like they have better depth at T than at G.

I'm pretty confident Gute and Co. have worked out a few scenarios on how to let this play out. How it actually does remains to be seen.

[Joemailman]

Sounds like the Patriots definitely had the better of the play today, after the Packers had the edge yesterday. Should make for some interesting moments Saturday night.

[Fritz]

Agree you want to keep Bakhtiari to protect the new QB as he learns. This is a development year for a young team, and a solid OL will help. No point in having a bunch of good young receiving talent if you don't have time to throw to them.
I think trading him before the end of the season would be shortsighted for that reason UNLESS they are clearly out of the playoff hunt AND they know what they have with Jordan Love AND they have someone who can step right in at LT. Moving him in the offseason seems more likely given the cap relief they'd get... they reworked his contract this year already so they probably keep him for this season at least. I could see a world where they keep him and let the contract play out and let him explore FA after that.

What happens behind him is far more interesting to me at the moment. I think Njiman is likely the backup swing tackle and will play if/when Bakh's knee flares up or he needs a break from a turf field. His contract is up and I think they let him walk. He's on a relatively cheap deal ($4.3M) but will get money somewhere and I think they like the guys developing behind him (Caleb Jones, Luke Tenuta, Rasheed Walker). Another offseason of development and they could slide one of them in and they'd have a cheaper player and more control over the contract. The constant here is Tom - I think he could play C just fine but I think he's more valuable at OT. Next year's draft class will probably include 2-3 OL. GB is unusual because it looks like they have better depth at T than at G.

I'm pretty confident Gute and Co. have worked out a few scenarios on how to let this play out. How it actually does remains to be seen.

I generally agree with this post, except that I think at this point they know who they have at tackle, so they really ought to be able to trade Bakh at the trade deadline this year. Nijman has motivation to play welll in his place, though it seems clear by the way the team is playing Nijman that they don't really think he's a number one tackle and will likely let him walk at the end of the year. And that's fine. You either draft on
OT early in the next draft, or if you thin Walker or one of the others is capable as a starter, you draft an OT developmentally. But I think it's clear neither Balk nor Nijman will be in GB next year. And that's okay.

[call_me_ishmael]

I disagree. Its the long game move unless you are talking about Love. Its possible that keeping him helps Love succeed and would be good for his psyche long term, but moving him for a pick and clearing his salary from the books after next season is the better long play for the franchise. If Bak were 100% right now I would say he is good enough to have 5 good years left. Given they way he manages his knee and who he is, I see him playing out next year because $20 million, but I don't think he plays a snap beyond 2024. He won't say it out loud, but I think mentally he is done with football and just collecting the last of his money. If we can land a 2nd I'd be thrilled.

Gutes went all in, and now we have to retool. He turned Adams and Rodgers into some very nice picks (young players). Bak is at the end of the line and if we can turn him into another pick, its the right time to do it.

I don't think he's done in two years. Someone will pay him. We shall see - he's made a lot of money and maybe he wants to talk away. I suspect he is going to start at least 14 games this year and do quite well. I'd rather have a #1 in a few years when the Jets are rebuilding than a 2 right now.

If keeping Bak is the difference between Love being Derek Carr and David Carr, I think I'd rather keep him though.

[Upnorth]

We are 1 injury away from being desperate at tackle if we trade bak. Unless the staff don't think he can make it through the season you do not trade bak. Uou can bank on losing at least 1 oline starter for a few games every year. Keeping bak means less risk in loves first year. He processes through his reads, let's not risk that for picks in a lottery.

[smuggler]

Jamal Reynolds had success in the SEC.

Exceptions and rules, I mean.

[Fritz]

We are 1 injury away from being desperate at tackle if we trade bak. Unless the staff don't think he can make it through the season you do not trade bak. Uou can bank on losing at least 1 oline starter for a few games every year. Keeping bak means less risk in loves first year. He processes through his reads, let's not risk that for picks in a lottery.

While I think Bakh is the guy who’s most likely to be that “one injury away” injury and thus would like to see them get what they can now before he gets hurt, I can see your point as well. It’s a good point, especially if Bakh gets through the year.

[bobblehead]

I generally agree with this post, except that I think at this point they know who they have at tackle, so they really ought to be able to trade Bakh at the trade deadline this year. Nijman has motivation to play welll in his place, though it seems clear by the way the team is playing Nijman that they don't really think he's a number one tackle and will likely let him walk at the end of the year. And that's fine. You either draft on
OT early in the next draft, or if you thin Walker or one of the others is capable as a starter, you draft an OT developmentally. But I think it's clear neither Balk nor Nijman will be in GB next year. And that's okay.

MiLF does seem to have disdain for Yosh. 2x he benched him on the eve of the playoffs and 2x his replacement struggled and contributed to us losing. Yosh isn't a tough run blocker, but he is so far from whatever this teams perception of him is that I don't understand it. He will get paid next year. He is a legit starting tackle at this point, but still they seem willing to move heaven and earth to try and replace him. By now Tom should be starting at C, but the team REALLY wants Yosh on the bench. My eyes don't understand it. I watched too many games with Marshall Newhouse. Yosh is solid. He does have a bad snap once in a while and I guess its perception. Some people look at a guy and only remember the bad snaps (Tex with Bak). Others watch the same guy and pretend the bad snaps are only 1 in a million (most people with Clay Mathews). Fat mike loved AJ Hawk. AJ loved to make tackles 7 yards downfield. Sometimes a coaching staff just gets a bad perception and its hard to change. Yosh needs to go to a team that never saw him as he was developing. They will only see the player he is today. Not Bak, but legit.

[texaspackerbacker]

I'm generally with you about Yosh - he's a little above mediocre. I'd say the same about Bakhtiari when healthy - not an occasional bad play, just a whole lot of runs in his direction that don't go anywhere and QB pressures on pass plays. Neither are Marshall House level, but neither looked very damn good either IMO, not like for example the Packers interior line many times the past couple of seasons.

[run pMc]

I think Bakhtiari plays somewhere around 10-12 games this year, depending on his and his knee's health. The games where he doesn't will be away games on turf. I suspect they'll play Njiman at LT those games. I think he's more natural at LT and switching between LT and RT does not come easily to him. He's a decent OT and someone will pay him a lot of money next year to play for them. GB has players waiting in the wings to take over the swing tackle role.

I don't think they view Njiman as the long term answer at OT, which is partly why they are playing him (or not). It was interesting that Rasheed Walker got LT snaps with first team vs. NE, while Njiman was playing into the 4Q. Maybe they're trying to light a fire under him? Just according to the eyeball test Njiman is probably in the 40's out of top 64 OT... you can get by with him, but he's not a franchise LT. I agree he's better than Mashall Newhouse.

[texaspackerbacker]

Sounds about right for the sacred cow, and I BET the games he doesn't play are not noticeably different from the games he plays in terms of O Line/OT play - maybe even better when he sits out.

[bobblehead]

Sounds about right for the sacred cow, and I BET the games he doesn't play are not noticeably different from the games he plays in terms of O Line/OT play - maybe even better when he sits out.

If you watch where the help gravitates the games he doesn't play will be noticeably different. If you only watch to see if Love gets hit or not, then I agree....you won't notice the actual difference.

[Joemailman]

Jake Hanson waived/injured.

Rashan Gary taking part in team reps.

[run pMc]

If you watch where the help gravitates the games he doesn't play will be noticeably different. If you only watch to see if Love gets hit or not, then I agree....you won't notice the actual difference.

Agree. Bakhtiari and Jenkins make a very good left side of the OL.

Read some of the coverage of the preseason games and you'll quickly read about issues with a team's OL. GB is rare in that they don't have many issues, any they do seem to be at C.
How many sacks have the 2nd or 3rd string OL given up? I don't think they gave up a hit (as an 'official' stat) against NE, which is pretty remarkable.

[Fritz]

Jake Hanson waived/injured.

Rashan Gary taking part in team reps.

Sure seems like the team is going to ride it out with Myers. If he doesn't play at a top-notch level, my guess is that next off-season they'll take another whack at the center position fairly early in the draft.

[Joemailman]

Sure seems like the team is going to ride it out with Myers. If he doesn't play at a top-notch level, my guess is that next off-season they'll take another whack at the center position fairly early in the draft.

They will stick with Myers for now. Other than the bad snap, most people seem to think that Myers played quite well against the Patriots. Did not give up a pressure and the Packers ran the ball effectively when he was in there. But the bad snaps have to stop.

Myers talked about he bad snap.

https://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2023/08/23/josh-myers-trying-to-cement-job-as-green-bay-packers-starting-center/70653271007/


Myers, the center, is trained to snap the football anytime a defender jumps across the line of scrimmage. The problem was, Uche started from nowhere near the line of scrimmage. He was 2 yards off when he took two quick steps forward, enticed by Love’s hard count. Uche stopped himself before reaching the line, digging his left hand into the ground as a makeshift brake.

Myers snapped anyway.

Love wasn’t expecting the snap. Wasn’t even looking at Myers. Standing back in the shotgun, he tried to react. Love reached both hands up for the football, but it was approaching too quickly, and now it was sailing through his hands, bouncing back toward the Packers end zone.

“In the moment,” Myers said, “I was like, ‘We’ve got him.’ Then when I saw the ball soar, I was like, ‘Oh (expletive). But we’re fine. We’ve got a penalty.’ Then I turned around and looked for it, and I was like, ‘Holy (expletive). Where’s the penalty?’”

Myers didn’t see a penalty flag for good reason. Uche jumped, but he never crossed the line. Instead of a free play, this third-and-5 very much counted, regrettably. Uche chased after the bouncing football, in a footrace with Love. Both went sliding for it around the 20-yard line, some 20 yards into the backfield.

Uche recovered it at the 18.


The Patriots had a touchdown and 7-0 lead five plays later.

“Those are tough decisions,” coach Matt LaFleur said. “Because, yeah, you want to take advantage of those situations. We had a couple come up in practice over the last couple practices that got whistled dead by the officials, and it’s such a fine line. Because you have to be on time when the offensive lineman, whoever is on top of the defensive player, when they move that snap has to come. If not, they’re going to whistle it dead.

[bobblehead]

They will stick with Myers for now. Other than the bad snap, most people seem to think that Myers played quite well against the Patriots. Did not give up a pressure and the Packers ran the ball effectively when he was in there. But the bad snaps have to stop.

Myers talked about he bad snap.

https://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2023/08/23/josh-myers-trying-to-cement-job-as-green-bay-packers-starting-center/70653271007/

You may know how I feel about "other than" statements. Other than handing the Patriots the ball in our RedZone and handicapping our D while giving the first score/lead/momentum to NE he was pretty good.

edit: I will credit you with saying they have to stop though. They absolutely have to stop.

[Upnorth]

If you watch where the help gravitates the games he doesn't play will be noticeably different. If you only watch to see if Love gets hit or not, then I agree....you won't notice the actual difference.

hopefully dont notice a difference.

And Joe, im willing to let it go on that on myers snap, but next time he needs to be benched.
Aparently the bad snaps came from other centres in a recent practice as well. How hard can it be to coach the snap? These guys went through a college program as centres, how in hte world do they f it up?

[Fritz]

hopefully dont notice a difference.

And Joe, im willing to let it go on that on myers snap, but next time he needs to be benched.
Aparently the bad snaps came from other centres in a recent practice as well. How hard can it be to coach the snap? These guys went through a college program as centres, how in hte world do they f it up?


I just figured it out by watching some slow-mo film of the bad snaps this preseason. If you look at Jordan Love's mouth, when he screws up, instead of swearing he says "Oh Snap!" - and they do.

[Joemailman]

Tom Silverstein
@TomSilverstein
#Packers practice: ILB De’Vondre Campbell back working. LS Matt Orzech back on the roster and taking part. WRs Romeo Doubs (hamstring) and Dontayvion Wicks (ankle) working out on the side. S Darnell Savage (unknown) not present. TE Ben Sims and S Zayne Anderson are here.

[bobblehead]

Maybe we traded Savage for a used unwashed jock strap!! That would be a good move.

[SudsMcBucky]

Maybe we traded Savage for a used unwashed jock strap!! That would be a good move.

And THEN play who at safety????

[bobblehead]

And THEN play who at safety????

Pretty much anyone. Although I'm hoping Savage did some soul searching about staying on his assignments in the offseason. I have been an anti savage guy almost since the day we traded up to draft him. Tons of physical skills though. But the NFL scrapheap is littered with 4.4 40's.

[SudsMcBucky]

Pretty much anyone. Although I'm hoping Savage did some soul searching about staying on his assignments in the offseason. I have been an anti savage guy almost since the day we traded up to draft him. Tons of physical skills though. But the NFL scrapheap is littered with 4.4 40's.

I think it's pretty clear all at 1265 think DS is the best of what's available.

[Joemailman]

Pretty much anyone. Although I'm hoping Savage did some soul searching about staying on his assignments in the offseason. I have been an anti savage guy almost since the day we traded up to draft him. Tons of physical skills though. But the NFL scrapheap is littered with 4.4 40's.

Actually I've read Packers coaches were impressed with how Savage handled his benching last year. Was reinserted as starter last 2 games and played well. I think he'll have a good year.

[smuggler]

That's a level of maturity that a lot of pro football players honestly do not have. If that's true, it's great to hear.

[sharpe1027]

That's a level of maturity that a lot of pro football players honestly do not have. If that's true, it's great to hear.

Frankly, it's a level of maturity a lot of people don't have. Not just pro football players. :-D

[bobblehead]

I think it's pretty clear all at 1265 think DS is the best of what's available.

I think its clear that they are invested in him. I also think they really regret picking up the 5th year option. Best of whats available? I'm not so sure that is clearly their thinking. I think we have 3 guys who are all similar and they are most invested in Savage succeeding.

I will be cheering for him to have a good year though. I'm not invested in being right about him. And guys can improve on mental issues, it does happen. Maybe he picked up Rasul's study habits.

[texaspackerbacker]

I just figured it out by watching some slow-mo film of the bad snaps this preseason. If you look at Jordan Love's mouth, when he screws up, instead of swearing he says "Oh Snap!" - and they do.

You're a lip reader?

[Fritz]

You're a lip reader?

One of my many skills.

Regarding Savage, I think he’ll have a good year simply because it’s a contract year. Not a great year - he’s never quite put it all together - but a good year.

[RashanGary]

Regarding Savage, I think he’ll have a good year simply because it’s a contract year. Not a great year - he’s never quite put it all together - but a good year.

This is about as good of a guess on Savage 2023 as we’re gonna find. He’s fast. He’s held up fairly well physically. He hasn’t been a complete liability. He’s going to give everything he has in his contract year. The best he has is probably average or above average and now is as good of a time as any to expect that out of him.

[run pMc]

I think Savage is a bad fit in Barry's defense. He was a bit of a project as a draft pick and hasn't really progressed to where you'd like to see him. He's still very talented and will make the occasional play, but that's just it - he's inconsistent. There's a chance last year and this being a contract year will light a fire under him, but camp reports haven't indicated he's playing much better.

If we get 'adequate' play out the safeties this year it will be a win. Not trying to be a downer, but I'm not sure any of the safeties on the roster are even average. Next year the safety room will be completely overhauled - only Anthony Johnson Jr. is under contract.

[Fritz]

I think Savage is a bad fit in Barry's defense. He was a bit of a project as a draft pick and hasn't really progressed to where you'd like to see him. He's still very talented and will make the occasional play, but that's just it - he's inconsistent. There's a chance last year and this being a contract year will light a fire under him, but camp reports haven't indicated he's playing much better.

If we get 'adequate' play out the safeties this year it will be a win. Not trying to be a downer, but I'm not sure any of the safeties on the roster are even average. Next year the safety room will be completely overhauled - only Anthony Johnson Jr. is under contract.

You know that position will be completely overhauled in the next draft. As will the center position and the running back position.

[Fritz]

And you can get passable centers and potentially good running backs in the middle rounds.

[bobblehead]

And you can get passable centers and potentially good running backs in the middle rounds.

Agreed. I'm terrified they reach for some guys with all that capital next year. Just go BPA and let the chips fall. Dominant blockers make wilson look great. You don't need to take RBs early. Our past few centers were really good mid round picks. If there is a next derwin james available I'm all for the pick....but reaching for the next savage because we have a need....

[bobblehead]

I just read this on online:

"I was impressed with Luke Musgrave in the preseason. If you compare his willingness to pass block and his fight to some of the other teams that faced the Patriots, for example, it stands out. While Musgrave, like all tight ends, is going to have to develop as he faces more complex pass rushes, wanting to get better and displaying basic competency in stressful situations is a great starting point. And having a dual threat blocker, big-bodied receiver in that offense, is a code breaker."

It mirrors my thoughts. If Luke fulfils his potential, this is a scary 2024 team. Of course we need many others to progress as well, but the foundation is laid.

[RashanGary]

I just read this on online:

"I was impressed with Luke Musgrave in the preseason. If you compare his willingness to pass block and his fight to some of the other teams that faced the Patriots, for example, it stands out. While Musgrave, like all tight ends, is going to have to develop as he faces more complex pass rushes, wanting to get better and displaying basic competency in stressful situations is a great starting point. And having a dual threat blocker, big-bodied receiver in that offense, is a code breaker."

It mirrors my thoughts. If Luke fulfils his potential, this is a scary 2024 team. Of course we need many others to progress as well, but the foundation is laid.

We have a couple shots at a TE panning out. Musgrave or Kraft. I guess Musgrave has a little higher ceiling based on measurables, but Krafts measurables are good enough that if he puts the rest together his ceiling is high too.

[smuggler]

Don't forget Ben Sims.

RAS: Ben Sims, Baylor (https://ras.football/ras-information/?PlayerID=23320&pos=TE)

If you run him as an H-back/FB comparison, one of his closest RAS profile comps is... Brandon Bostick.

[Joemailman]

Don't forget Ben Sims.

RAS: Ben Sims, Baylor (https://ras.football/ras-information/?PlayerID=23320&pos=TE)

If you run him as an H-back/FB comparison, one of his closest RAS profile comps is... Brandon Bostick.

So those devious Vikings waived him so he could infect the Packers.

[Fritz]

I hope he listens to his assignment instructions better than Brandon Bostick, and blocks better.

[texaspackerbacker]

It sounds like he's the only one who does the same things as Deguara. I wonder if he does those things better. It wouldn't take much.

[QBME]

I hope he listens to his assignment instructions better than Brandon Bostick, and blocks better.

Fer Cryin' Out Loud....you had to bring that shit up??!!?

[Fritz]

Oops.

Delete that reference.

[bobblehead]

Don't forget Ben Sims.

RAS: Ben Sims, Baylor (https://ras.football/ras-information/?PlayerID=23320&pos=TE)

If you run him as an H-back/FB comparison, one of his closest RAS profile comps is... Brandon Bostick.

In most normal TE drafts Sims would have been drafted. This one was just so damn deep.