More Banjo - Packers vs Lions - Part 1

[ThunderDan]

What a horrible game. We got beat in all 3 phases of the game.

At least the team played hard in the 2nd half so the score wouldn’t look like a Dolphins Bronco game.

[Bretsky]

Joe Barry Still Sucks

Why do the Packers hate Aaron Jones on GameDay ?

Detroit is the real deal;

This is a year of adjustment for GB

[ThunderDan]

I was at the game and was wondering why the Lions didn’t challenge the long completion to Reed at the end of the 3rd quarter.

It clearly looked to be after the clock was at zero live at the game. I know the NBA looks at all of those plays. Did the broadcast say anything about it?

[Bretsky]

Can't put a challenge in on that; but you are right. Clock was clearly zero

[RashanGary]

I thought I heard whistles.

[ThunderDan]

Detroit certainly looks like they finally have turned things around. They are in year 3 of their rebuild. They were able to get a Super Bowl QB and 2 first round picks for him. On top of their shitty season a couple of years ago, they have had a ton of top 40 picks in the last few drafts to help them along.

[ThunderDan]

Btw, that was a great catch by Reed. He had beat his man and the ball was a little under thrown. So he slowed down to use his body as a shield to keep the DB from being able to knock down the ball.

I wasn’t sure of the Reed pick when it happened. But I think he is going to have a really good career. Maybe James Jones type numbers. 60 catches, 800 yards, 5-10 TDs a year.

[Fosco33]

No rushing plan or attack at all. Zero. Zilch.

Makes scheming for pass attack a lot easier for a Defense. With a huge lead.

Game was over by the 2nd Q.

[jklowan]

Hats off to Detroit, they completely outplayed the Pack in every phase, I am hoping that they are for real and this isn't the norm for the Packers going forward. 2 games in a row of this shit so I don't know if this team is really just trash, i had really high hopes and they are quickly coming apart

[Freak Out]

The D missed Jaire for sure and Campbell being out didnt help. Stokes ever coming back?

[Fosco33]

Douglas looked like garbage - effort and execution. Wonder how his 1st half got rated.

[run pMc]

Detroit: 43 rushes, 28 passes
GB: 12 rushes, 36 passes

DET has won 6 division games in a row, and 4 straight vs. GB. They were a popular preseason pick to win the NFCN and they have the lead a quarter way thru the season.
GB was 3-11 on 3rd down conversions and had a TOP of 22 minutes. That's not winning football on offense. The OL is playing a number of backups and the DET DL won that battle. This year the running game and OL were supposed to be the bedrock to support Love's first year as starter. So far he's been the one carrying the offense, and that's a tough ask. I'd have to go back and watch, but I think most of the sacks were more on OL blocking than Love, but he did hold the ball a bit -- the defense was probably giving him looks that made him pause and hold the ball. He'll watch the film and learn from it.

If you look at David Montgomery's numbers he averaged 3.8 ypc which isn't much but he kept churning out yards and they just wore down this team again. It's part coaching and part execution. I think they were in base a fair amount and still got handled by a very good if beat up DET OL. Missing Jaire and DeVondre hurt them.

Detroit beat this team last year twice, and probably got better in the offseason. I'm honestly not surprised GB lost, but I am disappointed that they got physically handled like that. I expect GB to be a rollercoaster and they have met that expectation. That game was a low point and I think they'll bounce back. A lot for them to learn and improve from on this one... including using Jones better and getting a faster start on offense.

[Sparkey]

Detroit: 43 rushes, 28 passes
GB: 12 rushes, 36 passes

DET has won 6 division games in a row, and 4 straight vs. GB. They were a popular preseason pick to win the NFCN and they have the lead a quarter way thru the season.
GB was 3-11 on 3rd down conversions and had a TOP of 22 minutes. That's not winning football on offense. The OL is playing a number of backups and the DET DL won that battle. This year the running game and OL were supposed to be the bedrock to support Love's first year as starter. So far he's been the one carrying the offense, and that's a tough ask. I'd have to go back and watch, but I think most of the sacks were more on OL blocking than Love, but he did hold the ball a bit -- the defense was probably giving him looks that made him pause and hold the ball. He'll watch the film and learn from it.

If you look at David Montgomery's numbers he averaged 3.8 ypc which isn't much but he kept churning out yards and they just wore down this team again. It's part coaching and part execution. I think they were in base a fair amount and still got handled by a very good if beat up DET OL. Missing Jaire and DeVondre hurt them.

Detroit beat this team last year twice, and probably got better in the offseason. I'm honestly not surprised GB lost, but I am disappointed that they got physically handled like that. I expect GB to be a rollercoaster and they have met that expectation. That game was a low point and I think they'll bounce back. A lot for them to learn and improve from on this one... including using Jones better and getting a faster start on offense.

They were on a limited play count.

https://clutchpoints.com/packers-news-aaron-jones-christian-watson-playing-time-loss-lions

[bobblehead]

This team just can't seem to put it all together. I thought our OL would be a mega strong point, but instead we can't run the ball at all without Jenkins and Bak. We have 3 picks in the first 2 rounds next year and I hope they use all of them on OL. Walker is promising, but still needs help. If Jenkins can't stay on the field we are just dirt at LG. Myers can't run block a 12 year old. We need a heavy infusion of talent to turn the run game around.

And don't get me started on Joe Barry.

[jklowan]

This team just can't seem to put it all together. I thought our OL would be a mega strong point, but instead we can't run the ball at all without Jenkins and Bak. We have 3 picks in the first 2 rounds next year and I hope they use all of them on OL. Walker is promising, but still needs help. If Jenkins can't stay on the field we are just dirt at LG. Myers can't run block a 12 year old. We need a heavy infusion of talent to turn the run game around.

And don't get me started on Joe Barry.

Problem with that is they also need a safety or 2, a running back, and probably a corner

[SudsMcBucky]

Hats off to Detroit, they completely outplayed the Pack in every phase, I am hoping that they are for real and this isn't the norm for the Packers going forward. 2 games in a row of this shit so I don't know if this team is really just trash, i had really high hopes and they are quickly coming apart

I don't think you need to wonder if DET is for real. As you know, they beat KC on the road, too.

[bobblehead]

https://lombardiave.com/posts/packers-matt-lafleur-throws-joe-barry-bus-week-4-lions-01hbfgp8x1vd?utm_source=RSS

Maybe there is hope.

edit: better link

[call_me_ishmael]

Btw, that was a great catch by Reed. He had beat his man and the ball was a little under thrown. So he slowed down to use his body as a shield to keep the DB from being able to knock down the ball.

I wasn’t sure of the Reed pick when it happened. But I think he is going to have a really good career. Maybe James Jones type numbers. 60 catches, 800 yards, 5-10 TDs a year.

Dude I totally agree. He looks really good to me. I can't remember a rookie wideout impressing me so much.

[Guiness]

I was at the game and was wondering why the Lions didn’t challenge the long completion to Reed at the end of the 3rd quarter.

It clearly looked to be after the clock was at zero live at the game. I know the NBA looks at all of those plays. Did the broadcast say anything about it?

It was brought up a couple of times and they mentioned that the game clock is different than the play clock - it's not a matter of judgment on the part of the referee (the 'long zero' seen all the time), the play should be dead.

They also pointed out it could not be challenged and not re-viewable.

If the Pack had completed their comeback, the Lions fans would've quite rightfully lost their minds!

[jklowan]

I don't think you need to wonder if DET is for real. As you know, they beat KC on the road, too.

KC had no receivers in that game so I am just not sure about how good the Lions actually are. The Packers gacked up a 12 point lead to the Falcons with 12 minutes left in the game, posted a big lead to the Saints and got lucky with the missed field goal & now this beatdown by Lions, it is starting to feel like this Packer team is not very good, just my opinion. Jordan Love looks promising and the past 2 drafts look decent so there is hope for the future, I guess I thought this might be a surprise year, not any more. My hope now is a DC fire and finally a decent defense hire, might not take long if we suffer threw a few more of games like this.

[Fritz]

https://lombardiave.com/posts/packers-matt-lafleur-throws-joe-barry-bus-week-4-lions-01hbfgp8x1vd?utm_source=RSS

Maybe there is hope.

edit: better link

I just watched about six minutes of The Flower's presser after the game. One of the reporters - Pete Dogherty - was trying to ask a question, and I couldn't quite catch it. I THINK it was something like "what the hell happened that you started so badly?" - not in those words, but that question. The Flower just ripped his head off, said it was a BS question, if he knew the answer it wouldn't have happened. I know he just saw his team get beat up, but I thought he was unneccesarily pissy about it. Don't we all want to ask The Flower why the hell his team wasn't ready to play again for the second week in a row?? Maybe the answer is "I don't know." But it's not a BS question.

I also saw The Flower, when asked about the run defense, put his head down for a moment, as if trying to gather his thoughts, or bite his tongue. His comment about it being insane to do the same thing over and over again, and following that with the comment about at least take one phase away - wow, he really was pissed. He tried to redirect it back a bit onto himself, but it's clear he's really angry at Joe Barely. I expect to see a lot more base defense against the Raiders, and probably Jaire on Davante.

I've never seen LeFleur that pissed off. Though he did say he was proud that they at least competed in the second half and didn't fold.

Me, I'd like to know who kidnapped Rich Bisaccia and replaced him with Maurice Drayton in a Rich Bisaccia costume. The team has devoted significant resources to ST, and they looked like their old selves last night. And it wasn't the rookie punter and kicker that were the problem. It was the penalties.

[run pMc]

MLF was pretty pissed after the ATL game at the run defense as well. I think he's feeling some heat about that and rightfully so.

This is going to sound like both an excuse and a broken record, but young players are going to make great athletic plays and also stupid boneheaded ones. I think that's a contributing factor to their uneven performance.
There is a certain amount of this that is on the coaches - in terms of the game plan, the development of young players, the teaching of scheme and making sure they are following the rules of the scheme and playing with good fundamentals.
Beyond that, the players have to execute and if they are being sloppy, playing hero-ball/guessing, or just not playing with proper technique they will look bad.

I think Joe Barry should take some blame for this -- they often played with 2 DL when DET was running and didn't adapt. They played better in the second half and forced some punts, but by then they spotted Detroit 27 points.
More often I thought the player execution was not good enough. Quay was both good and bad (mostly good, but he's still not showing the instincts and reaction speed I'd like to see). McDuffie is a backup and replacement level guy pushed into action. GB's DL lost more than it won at the LOS, and the team that is winning there and resetting the LOS should be able to do what the Lions did, namely, run 40+ times for over 200 yards. Colby Wooden might be a nice player in Year 3, but right now he's probably 275 and can't hold up against 2 DET OL running Duo at him. Davonte Wyatt is still not great at run defense. Slaton and Clark are their best guys but you can't play them 80% of the snaps. Savage is tackling better but he and Rasul gambled a few times and guessed wrong. They didn't have Jaire and even Valentine is banged up. I could go on and on, but I saw a DL that struggled to get off blocks and ILBs that struggled to read the hole and fill it by meeting the RB there at full speed.

Offensively they didn't have a smart plan but they struggled to run the ball anyway. Short/quick passing game might have helped, or more screen or plays to work the defense laterally. Love was holding the ball and on a few sacks had players open and didn't see them, so maybe it was a bad game for him or maybe he got flustered by the rush ... or disguised coverage. Either way, I didn't think the offense looked competent in the first half, and I wonder if that's on MLF or on Stenovich.

I don't see a scenario where they bring Barry next year. Maybe Brandon Staley gets cut loose from LAC and decides he wants to coach this defense instead of sitting around and getting paid...but it won't happen until end of year when Barry is gone.

This won't be the last stinker we see this year...it's a young team playing .500 ball, which is about what I expected.

[MadScientist]

I just watched about six minutes of The Flower's presser after the game. One of the reporters - Pete Dogherty - was trying to ask a question, and I couldn't quite catch it. I THINK it was something like "what the hell happened that you started so badly?" - not in those words, but that question. The Flower just ripped his head off, said it was a BS question, if he knew the answer it wouldn't have happened. I know he just saw his team get beat up, but I thought he was unnecessarily pissy about it. Don't we all want to ask The Flower why the hell his team wasn't ready to play again for the second week in a row?? Maybe the answer is "I don't know." But it's not a BS question.


The Packers have not been good in any first half this season. MLF should be pissed, not at the question, but at the team and the preparation. They pick up after the half, but they can't come out this pathetic. They have to start better and more prepared. They looked lost on defense and were not dictating anything on offense.

[Sparkey]

MLF says ..."It is insane to try the same things over and expect different results."

MLF retains JB as his DC.

Irony, eh!?

[ThunderDan]

We played a lot of nickel with 2 big DL in the game. On a couple of the TD runs, I knew Det was going to run up the middle. 3 on 2 for an easy score.

[Fritz]

MLF was pretty pissed after the ATL game at the run defense as well. I think he's feeling some heat about that and rightfully so.

This is going to sound like both an excuse and a broken record, but young players are going to make great athletic plays and also stupid boneheaded ones. I think that's a contributing factor to their uneven performance.
There is a certain amount of this that is on the coaches - in terms of the game plan, the development of young players, the teaching of scheme and making sure they are following the rules of the scheme and playing with good fundamentals.
Beyond that, the players have to execute and if they are being sloppy, playing hero-ball/guessing, or just not playing with proper technique they will look bad.

I think Joe Barry should take some blame for this -- they often played with 2 DL when DET was running and didn't adapt. They played better in the second half and forced some punts, but by then they spotted Detroit 27 points.
More often I thought the player execution was not good enough. Quay was both good and bad (mostly good, but he's still not showing the instincts and reaction speed I'd like to see). McDuffie is a backup and replacement level guy pushed into action. GB's DL lost more than it won at the LOS, and the team that is winning there and resetting the LOS should be able to do what the Lions did, namely, run 40+ times for over 200 yards. Colby Wooden might be a nice player in Year 3, but right now he's probably 275 and can't hold up against 2 DET OL running Duo at him. Davonte Wyatt is still not great at run defense. Slaton and Clark are their best guys but you can't play them 80% of the snaps. Savage is tackling better but he and Rasul gambled a few times and guessed wrong. They didn't have Jaire and even Valentine is banged up. I could go on and on, but I saw a DL that struggled to get off blocks and ILBs that struggled to read the hole and fill it by meeting the RB there at full speed.

Offensively they didn't have a smart plan but they struggled to run the ball anyway. Short/quick passing game might have helped, or more screen or plays to work the defense laterally. Love was holding the ball and on a few sacks had players open and didn't see them, so maybe it was a bad game for him or maybe he got flustered by the rush ... or disguised coverage. Either way, I didn't think the offense looked competent in the first half, and I wonder if that's on MLF or on Stenovich.

I don't see a scenario where they bring Barry next year. Maybe Brandon Staley gets cut loose from LAC and decides he wants to coach this defense instead of sitting around and getting paid...but it won't happen until end of year when Barry is gone.

This won't be the last stinker we see this year...it's a young team playing .500 ball, which is about what I expected.


I've been wondering if instead of this all being on Joe Barely or on MLF for hiring him, it's also a function of Guter not drafting super great on defense. He's got Rashan Gary and Jaire Alexander to his credit; Quay Walker looks like he will be very good, and he found (or his scouts found and he signed) Rasul Douglas, and he got one really good year out of Campbell (but only one). But Devonte Wyatt's big "second year leap" has turned into a tiny little step sideways. TJ SLaton is serviceable but no stud, Savage is a disappointment for the #21 overall pick, Adrian Amos was good for a couple years but there's no replacement. I mean, it's not a horrible track record, but maybe they're not as good as I thought?

Ah, I tried. But hell, mostly Guter seems to have done well enough. Plus there's Kenny Clark from the Thompson years. Joe Barely just sucks ass, that's all. You can talk about injuries to Alexander and Campbell, but every team has those. And it's only two.

As I have said, I've got more patience for the offense, which has a new starting QB and lots of young receivers and tight ends, plus the entire left side of the line missing. But the defense - I have no patience for them sucking. They're not as young as the offense, experience-wise. The two preferred starting corners are experienced. One safety is. (The other's a retread.) The top two preferred defensive linemen are experienced. The linebackers are experienced. So in answer to Jimi Hendrix's question, yes, they are experienced.

[call_me_ishmael]

I think Detroit is a very good team that is creative at running. I'm not surprised they ran it down our throat. Our DC sucks. I would like to see them find a better one. Maybe the Saints coach if he gets shit canned.

[texaspackerbacker]

It's kinda weird how so many are panicking here. Ya'all were going crazy about how good Detroit is - I'd still say probably overrated even after the ass-kicking of Thursday night. Then you want to have it both ways - that team you puffed up beat the Packers bad on a bad night, and now it's all doom and gloom. Sheeeesh

LaFleur didn't have the team prepared ...... some guy named McCarthy was guilty of the same thing with a super talented team last Sunday too (as if we never saw that with the Packers). That lack of preparation hasn't happened often for LaFleur - I don't recall ever seeing it before. I think it's safe to say he and the team will bounce back.

Barry needs to be GONE, but we've won a helluva lot of games with his shoddy D before, and we likely will again.

Love didn't do much to diminish the high hopes that we have for him. I may have been a little late to the party on that, but I'm there now.

Things are gonna be all right - all right being the low end of expectations. Any pathetic anti-homer dumbshits thinking otherwise go root for the damn Lions or whatever. I'd still bet that the Packers have a better record than the Lions by the end of the season - there, you ignorant shitheads, retain that to throw back at me if I'm wrong - and fuck anybody that applies to.

[sharpe1027]

In the world of blame for this loss, the blame for the offense is the size of Texas and the defense blame is the size of maybe Vermont.

[Fritz]

In the world of blame for this loss, the blame for the offense is the size of Texas and the defense blame is the size of maybe Vermont.

I would disagree. I’d say the offense’s blame is Texas-size and the defense’s is California-sized.

But Joe Barely’s is Alaska-sized.

And MLF agreed with my post that the defense has enough talent - he said things could be fixed “schematically.” Joe Barely better be all “fluid” and “adaptable” as they say in the business world.

[sharpe1027]

I would disagree. I’d say the offense’s blame is Texas-size and the defense’s is California-sized.

But Joe Barely’s is Alaska-sized.

And MLF agreed with my post that the defense has enough talent - he said things could be fixed “schematically.” Joe Barely better be all “fluid” and “adaptable” as they say in the business world.

I am in no way saying the defense played well. Still, I think the offense made the defense look worse and deserves most of the blame. 21 yards in a half and three points despite being handed great field position after an opening drive turnover. 21 yards? What the actual fuck?

The offense puts together anything resembling a drive the first half and the defense gets a break while Detroits offense sits on the sidelines.

[Fritz]

I am in no way saying the defense played well. Still, I think the offense made the defense look worse and deserves most of the blame. 21 yards in a half and three points despite being handed great field position after an opening drive turnover. 21 yards? What the actual fuck?

The offense puts together anything resembling a drive the first half and the defense gets a break while Detroits offense sits on the sidelines.

I think we basically agree:

Alaska: 586,000 square miles. Texas: 261,232 square miles. California: 155,959 square miles.

The offense was awful, and has been for much of the season. I think we mostly expected that - growing pains and injuries. The big finger-of-blame goes to MLF for not utilizing Aaron Jones when he has him to utilize. The guy is the top offensive talent on that unit, and MLF doesn't get him involved very early or often.

But When you shuffle two defensive linemen out there when the Lions are at your two-yard line, 11 personnel or not, you're just giving away an easy TD. That's an Alaskan-size portion of blame.

[run pMc]

But When you shuffle two defensive linemen out there when the Lions are at your two-yard line, 11 personnel or not, you're just giving away an easy TD. That's an Alaskan-size portion of blame.

https://twitter.com/AndyHermanNFL/status/1707635068296925599

Agree offense was also to blame, and any kind of a sustained drive ending in points would have been a big help.

[Bretsky]

I just watched about six minutes of The Flower's presser after the game. One of the reporters - Pete Dogherty - was trying to ask a question, and I couldn't quite catch it. I THINK it was something like "what the hell happened that you started so badly?" - not in those words, but that question. The Flower just ripped his head off, said it was a BS question, if he knew the answer it wouldn't have happened. I know he just saw his team get beat up, but I thought he was unneccesarily pissy about it. Don't we all want to ask The Flower why the hell his team wasn't ready to play again for the second week in a row?? Maybe the answer is "I don't know." But it's not a BS question.

I also saw The Flower, when asked about the run defense, put his head down for a moment, as if trying to gather his thoughts, or bite his tongue. His comment about it being insane to do the same thing over and over again, and following that with the comment about at least take one phase away - wow, he really was pissed. He tried to redirect it back a bit onto himself, but it's clear he's really angry at Joe Barely. I expect to see a lot more base defense against the Raiders, and probably Jaire on Davante.

I've never seen LeFleur that pissed off. Though he did say he was proud that they at least competed in the second half and didn't fold.

Me, I'd like to know who kidnapped Rich Bisaccia and replaced him with Maurice Drayton in a Rich Bisaccia costume. The team has devoted significant resources to ST, and they looked like their old selves last night. And it wasn't the rookie punter and kicker that were the problem. It was the penalties.



JASON WILDE, who IMO is the best out there covering the Packers and as a media guy 2nd all time to the legendary stud Bob McGinn, was in the room and made some comments after.

He noted everybody was in shock at how MLF snapped. Went on to note it was a very fair questions and honestly a general one that was not so bad..........essentially asking what happened in the first half/slow start.

Added Doughterty, who in general is very well liked and respect by all, was not remotely happy at MFL's reaction, which was not normal and not really appropriate.

[RashanGary]

Pete came out on Twitter and said MLF is consistently respectful to media and he admires that because it’s not always easy to answer those questions. He said everyone has moments where they get pissed and snip back and he’s not offended at all. And doesn’t expect it to keep happening either.

[bobblehead]

The Packers have not been good in any first half this season. MLF should be pissed, not at the question, but at the team and the preparation. They pick up after the half, but they can't come out this pathetic. They have to start better and more prepared. They looked lost on defense and were not dictating anything on offense.

This is typical of young teams. Detroit has been the exception. I wish I could find the post from Dan Campbell's first season when someone said "it seems it takes more than attitude and a head coach that should be a high school gym teacher to win games." That didn't age well.

[bobblehead]

I've been wondering if instead of this all being on Joe Barely or on MLF for hiring him, it's also a function of Guter not drafting super great on defense. He's got Rashan Gary and Jaire Alexander to his credit; Quay Walker looks like he will be very good, and he found (or his scouts found and he signed) Rasul Douglas, and he got one really good year out of Campbell (but only one). But Devonte Wyatt's big "second year leap" has turned into a tiny little step sideways. TJ SLaton is serviceable but no stud, Savage is a disappointment for the #21 overall pick, Adrian Amos was good for a couple years but there's no replacement. I mean, it's not a horrible track record, but maybe they're not as good as I thought?

Ah, I tried. But hell, mostly Guter seems to have done well enough. Plus there's Kenny Clark from the Thompson years. Joe Barely just sucks ass, that's all. You can talk about injuries to Alexander and Campbell, but every team has those. And it's only two.

As I have said, I've got more patience for the offense, which has a new starting QB and lots of young receivers and tight ends, plus the entire left side of the line missing. But the defense - I have no patience for them sucking. They're not as young as the offense, experience-wise. The two preferred starting corners are experienced. One safety is. (The other's a retread.) The top two preferred defensive linemen are experienced. The linebackers are experienced. So in answer to Jimi Hendrix's question, yes, they are experienced.

You worked your way completely through the process to the conclusion I have drawn. There is a lot of talent on that D, it just isn't playing as a unit. Even Savage hasn't been a dumpster fire this year. I honestly can't point to one area and say they don't have the talent. Even Rudy Ford is playing good enough. But they are playing on their heels. Not to lose if you will. I want aggression. I want a guy who should be a high school gym teacher as my DC.

[bobblehead]

I would disagree. I’d say the offense’s blame is Texas-size and the defense’s is California-sized.

But Joe Barely’s is Alaska-sized.

And MLF agreed with my post that the defense has enough talent - he said things could be fixed “schematically.” Joe Barely better be all “fluid” and “adaptable” as they say in the business world.

You guys are losing me. Are we going square miles, or population? Or population per square mile in which case Barely is NY city size blame.

[bobblehead]

I think we basically agree:

Alaska: 586,000 square miles. Texas: 261,232 square miles. California: 155,959 square miles.

The offense was awful, and has been for much of the season. I think we mostly expected that - growing pains and injuries. The big finger-of-blame goes to MLF for not utilizing Aaron Jones when he has him to utilize. The guy is the top offensive talent on that unit, and MLF doesn't get him involved very early or often.

But When you shuffle two defensive linemen out there when the Lions are at your two-yard line, 11 personnel or not, you're just giving away an easy TD. That's an Alaskan-size portion of blame.


Again I fail to read far enough to get the answer to my question.

[run pMc]

This is typical of young teams. Detroit has been the exception. I wish I could find the post from Dan Campbell's first season when someone said "it seems it takes more than attitude and a head coach that should be a high school gym teacher to win games." That didn't age well.

Detroit's offense isn't that young. The only rookies I can think of getting substantial snaps are Gibbs and LaPorta. Their OL is mostly guys with a few years in the league, and Goff has plenty of starts under his belt.
DET's defense has some few younger players, but a fair number of vets there as well. It's a team that started with a lot of talent thanks to the Stafford trade and good drafting and after 2-3 seasons together has started to gel... which is what GB hopes will happen for them in 2024-25. This is the year where GB plays a lot of youth and they learn from mistakes. Next year they should be better and will also start to finally get out of the salary cap hole, and by 2025 you have cap health and a lot of Year 3 or 4 players in their prime.

As for Campbell, I thought he was a kook and still do, although he's not as bad as he first was. He made coaching decisions his first year that straight up lost them games, and his schtick can come off as a joke. He does preach physicality and has a good OC, and his GM has used all those early picks well in general to bring in talent that will make them good for a while (St. Brown, Hutchinson, etc.) I think he has the team's faith and he's turned out to be a better HC than I thought he'd be. One thing I will be very curious to see is how that team handles success. DET has been second to the Browns as a Sadness Factory, it's possible they win the NFCN, let success go to their heads, and get completely blown out in the playoffs, and then go 8-9 next year with a tougher schedule. Then again, they've won 11 of their last 13 games going back to last year, so maybe they will be for real.

[run pMc]

You worked your way completely through the process to the conclusion I have drawn. There is a lot of talent on that D, it just isn't playing as a unit. Even Savage hasn't been a dumpster fire this year. I honestly can't point to one area and say they don't have the talent. Even Rudy Ford is playing good enough. But they are playing on their heels. Not to lose if you will. I want aggression. I want a guy who should be a high school gym teacher as my DC.

Agree. I feel like I've been saying "whole is less than sum of its parts" to describe this defense since the mid-Pettine era. Gute has put a lot of draft capital into the defense, at the expense of the offense. I would expect he is drafting players that are good scheme fits.
He has drafted "projects" like Rashan Gary who have worked out, and some who haven't. There's a certain amount of luck there with the player there (do they have the heart and brain to work hard and learn to be a good pro?) but I'm starting to wonder about the quality of the coaching the players are getting.

Purely cherry picking a coach -- Jerry Montomery has been with the team since McCarthy as DL coach. Can you name a player he's managed to develop into a good pro? (He inherited Kenny Clark.) Would Slaton count?
Ben Sirmans is an ok RB coach.

Stenovich was a better OL coach than current OL coach Butkus, but I think Luke Butkus isn't bad.

The defense and running game were supposed to carry this team early, and both aren't doing the job well. The youth movement is largely on the offense, so experience shouldn't be an excuse for the defense's failings IMO.

[texaspackerbacker]

Oh yeah, Luke Butkus - I just got through saying in another thread that I couldn't even remember the name of the Packers O line coach. I say again, I certainly would not give the guy a pass just because of injuries for the poor play of the O Line against the Lions. On the other hand, I don't want to do what I've criticized others for: panicking, claiming it's a trend, whatever. This was one bad game. Undoubtedly the Packers will bounce back strong and the O Line, even with the injuries will get back to opening holes for Aaron Jones, etc. as they have more often than not.

One thing I have to give the panicky "ya'all crowd" in here credit for is not piling on LaFleur (or did I just miss it when ya'all did hahahaha?). I read a couple stupid media things blaming him, and I suppose ultimately things do fall on the head coach. But the thing about not using Aaron Jones enough, etc., I have to think that is either because of lingering effect of his injury or else being hyper-cautious not to get him re-injured. I have said, and I say again, I'd like to see more of a rotation at RB with Wilson and Taylor getting more carries. It seems like people are coming to the conclusion (that I had much earlier) that the other sort of sacred cow of many people, A.J. Dillon (and his type of RB) is not what we need to have running the ball in most situations.

[sharpe1027]

I haven't seen people panicking. It was a really shitty game and that's been the discussion.

Tex, try a different narrative please.

[run pMc]

I haven't seen people panicking. It was a really shitty game and that's been the discussion.

Tex, try a different narrative please.

Agree. I'm definitely not panicking. This isn't a Bears forum.
2-2 is about where I'd expect them to be honestly. Last year they looked like a BAD team for a long stretch of the season. This year they just look young and inconsistent...maybe that's a "No Rodgers and His Old Crew" effect. I think if they can get healthy and play with more crispness and consistency -- which should come with experience -- they'll be fine. If you predicted between 7 and 10 wins for this team, it's still not out of the question IMO.

[RashanGary]

After watching the Bills and Eagles this year, I sure don’t feel real good about the 23’ Packers. We have a fairly easy schedule and a lot of young players who could get better.

I don’t like our chances this year, but we have a chance in the long run.

[run pMc]

I had modest expectations for them this year, given the changes on offense. Jordan Love has been a bit better (so far) than I expected, tbh, and injuries have really hit them hard early which is a shame. That aside, I thought they'd be about a .500 team. Normally I wouldn't think them even a wildcard contender,but with how bad the NFC was looking on paper overall they have a very slim chance. There's still a lot of football left in the season.

I do think that if Love pans out to be even above average this team will be in good shape in the very near future.

[texaspackerbacker]

I haven't seen people panicking. It was a really shitty game and that's been the discussion.

Tex, try a different narrative please.

You haven't seen dumbasses talking about "tearing down to rebuild" and a bunch of "we're not worthy" shit? Yeah right.

[bobblehead]

You haven't seen dumbasses talking about "tearing down to rebuild" and a bunch of "we're not worthy" shit? Yeah right.

Not sure about "we're not worthy" but yea, I want to jettison all players who are near the end of their time with the team if we can get some picks. This team isn't going far in the playoffs if they even make it. I wanted to trade Bak in the spring, probably AJones as well. These were the two guys with value that won't be around in 2 years. Maybe Bak couldn't have passed a physical and we couldn't move him, idk. And Jones is a great team mate and his value is multi faceted so I'm not upset about keeping him. However moving on from Amos, Cobb, Lazard, Rodgers....it was time.

I totally forgot Preston Smith. If you can get a 3rd for him, it would be the right time.

So yes, I have been all in on the tear down because...well, we had no choice. That is a far cry from "the sky is falling" or whatever else you are trying to pretend people are saying.

[bobblehead]

Back to the point of "more banjo". At the end of the half we had 3 seconds left and ball at midfield and we ran a play. Why not trot out Anders and take the shot. He has the leg to hit from 67 and I would think the chance to put up points is better on a FG than a play where they can defend the goal line. Anyone else wonder about that?

[sharpe1027]

You haven't seen dumbasses talking about "tearing down to rebuild" and a bunch of "we're not worthy" shit? Yeah right.

I've mostly seen a fairly balanced discussion about why we sucked so bad. Which we did.

[MadtownPacker]

Back to the point of "more banjo". At the end of the half we had 3 seconds left and ball at midfield and we ran a play. Why not trot out Anders and take the shot. He has the leg to hit from 67 and I would think the chance to put up points is better on a FG than a play where they can defend the goal line. Anyone else wonder about that?
I was the same bobble. It didn’t seem like it was impossible distance to try. Instead they went in with tails tucked after a bunch of messy attempts.

[texaspackerbacker]

Not sure about "we're not worthy" but yea, I want to jettison all players who are near the end of their time with the team if we can get some picks. This team isn't going far in the playoffs if they even make it. I wanted to trade Bak in the spring, probably AJones as well. These were the two guys with value that won't be around in 2 years. Maybe Bak couldn't have passed a physical and we couldn't move him, idk. And Jones is a great team mate and his value is multi faceted so I'm not upset about keeping him. However moving on from Amos, Cobb, Lazard, Rodgers....it was time.

I totally forgot Preston Smith. If you can get a 3rd for him, it would be the right time.

So yes, I have been all in on the tear down because...well, we had no choice. That is a far cry from "the sky is falling" or whatever else you are trying to pretend people are saying.

Most of that is fairly sensible, although trading Jones cheap would be a recipe for getting worse. The Packers have always rebuilt on the fly - which, of course, is smart, NOT tearing down the team to rebuild which is what the stupid loser teams do. Yet some in here talk like they'd prefer to be like those loser teams, especially now that there is a flash of quality for the Lions after decades of crap hahahaha.

[texaspackerbacker]

I've mostly seen a fairly balanced discussion about why we sucked so bad. Which we did.

For one bad game hahahaha - and some dumb shits are panicking like it's the end of all good football. I don't know whether you are that stupid, but some certainly are.

Mark my words, the Packers will still finish the season with a better record than the shitheads' latest favorite, the Lions.

[Fritz]

Back to the point of "more banjo". At the end of the half we had 3 seconds left and ball at midfield and we ran a play. Why not trot out Anders and take the shot. He has the leg to hit from 67 and I would think the chance to put up points is better on a FG than a play where they can defend the goal line. Anyone else wonder about that?

There were a couple instances earlier this season in which The Flower passed on long attempts to try to get a first down, and ended up with sacks or incompletions. I’ve wondered if they’re protecting Carlson a bit, trying to build his confidence. I of course do not know their thinking, but in his prime McCarthy would send the Masonator out on the off chance he could hit that 60+ yard kick.

[bobblehead]

There were a couple instances earlier this season in which The Flower passed on long attempts to try to get a first down, and ended up with sacks or incompletions. I’ve wondered if they’re protecting Carlson a bit, trying to build his confidence. I of course do not know their thinking, but in his prime McCarthy would send the Masonator out on the off chance he could hit that 60+ yard kick.

Yea, me and my friends watching all went with the confidence angle. No other good reason to not take that shot. I can understand wanting to keep him from missing for as long as possible to build him up so when he does finally miss its almost a relief.