Reflections on Gooter

[call_me_ishmael]

Roster kinda seems like ass. I have always had a hard time figuring out if he was a good GM or not. I think the draft data and lack of depth points towards not very good, but it might be cemented now that Love doesn't look like a dude. I do think he does a lot of good stuff *during the deason* but his off-season and college scouting outside of first round could be better for sure.

Gooter bet literally everything on JLove. He pissed off and tarnished the relationship with an all-timer because he believed in a thing called Love. I kinda wonder if his seat is getting quite warm*

*We all know its not because its the Packers and Muphy is gonna retire shortly anyway. The next guy will likely fire Gooter though.

[MadScientist]

They can all go. Murphy, Gute, MLF, all the other coaches. They can go this week, given how bad the Packers are playing right now.

[Upnorth]

I'm good with gute.

I think it's Lafleur over complicating line blocking on o.
And Barry exists. He has okay schemes, but it seems like players aren't making good choices in the scheme, so he isn't teaching recognition. Barry needs an interpreter or needs ro go.

[run pMc]

Gute's done ok. A few of his drafts look bad, but the last two have been pretty good overall. I'd give him like a B- overall.

MLF is going to be on the hot seat next year. I'm assuming they don't go into a full-on death spiral and lose the rest of their games, in which case I'd consider a coaching change. This team has talent, they need to put it together. In theory they should get better by end of year.
Barry's contract is up at end of season and won't be invited back if there is any wisdom in the building.
The ILB and OLB coaches are ok I guess. The new secondary guy seems decent.

Stenovich is OC in name only and should probably help more with OL coaching.
Tom Clements is on a milk carton, I think he's done after this year unless they can entice him back with a shiny new QB draft pick to mold.
Ben Sirmins is a decent RB coach
No idea on the WR coach, but he's got work to do to get those guys to improve. They might need better there.
The TE coach is a glorified coffee getter. They probably need more there.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

I'm good with gute.

You’re good with the GM who took Savage and a fucking center over DK Metcalf and AJ Brown? Guess you must’ve been good with MVS, Lazard and St. Brown catching rocks. And you’re good with the GM who took Love over Jonathan Taylor?

[Joemailman]

They can all go. Murphy, Gute, MLF, all the other coaches. They can go this week, given how bad the Packers are playing right now.

That's certainly an overreaction, if an understandable one. This is the youngest team in the NFL that has played 4 games that were decided by a total of 8 points. They've lost 3 of them. That's disappointing, but not a reason to blow everything up.

[run pMc]

You’re good with the GM who took Savage and a fucking center over DK Metcalf and AJ Brown? Guess you must’ve been good with MVS, Lazard and St. Brown catching rocks. And you’re good with the GM who took Love over Jonathan Taylor?

Elgton Jenkins is a two time Pro Bowler, he was a good pick. The GMs who took Metcalf and Brown in R2 also took LJ Collier and Andre Dillard in R1. EVERY GM passed on Deebo in R1.

As for Love, I preferred Jalen Hurts (more accurate in college, higher level of competition) to Jordan Love, but many scouts liked Love's arm and ability to play off-schedule. He was a Top 40 pick at a minimum. Picking a RB high is dicey at best; you don't do it unless you have a game-changer. That was the mistake with Dillon in R2. You can find dynamic or even serviceable RBs in Day 3, as has been proven by GB with Jamaal/AJones.

EVERY GM has swings and misses, just because you liked a player better that GB didn't take doesn't make the GM bad. Most people were WTF with Rodgers and Nick Collins

[Upnorth]

You’re good with the GM who took Savage and a fucking center over DK Metcalf and AJ Brown? Guess you must’ve been good with MVS, Lazard and St. Brown catching rocks. And you’re good with the GM who took Love over Jonathan Taylor?

Dude, :beat:

I'm very happy youadd the right call there. 0 gms saw 1st round talent in Metcalf. So if that's the hill yoj want to die on then every gm should be fired.

If you step back at his whole body of work then gute is very much above average at the least.
And I still think going for a qb in 2020 with high upside was smart.

[MadScientist]

That's certainly an overreaction, if an understandable one. This is the youngest team in the NFL that has played 4 games that were decided by a total of 8 points. They've lost 3 of them. That's disappointing, but not a reason to blow everything up.

The only overreaction is suggesting that they all be fired this week, since it takes time to replace people and there are likely no viable replacements at this time of year. But not one of them has earned another season. They've been playing for 7 weeks and there is no improvement seen, in any group. Gute drafted like shit in 2020 and 2021. The 22 and 23 drafts looked better initially, but who is actually improving? They are not taking a step up, and most look like they are regressing. The supposed OL and DL strengths coming into the season were just a mirage. OL is complete shit, DL isn't getting pressure (0 sacks on Russel!!??). Barry's defense looks barely adequate against shitty teams, and the offense has been worse than shitty in the first half of every single game. Really they only played 2 decent halves of football this whole year.

So who among the coaches and front office has laid claim to deserving another season? I'm seeing nobody.

[Fritz]

His inability to build from the insides out - from the trenches out - has to be a disappointment. Wyatt's lack of development this year is disappointing as all get out. Then you have a bunch of fourth-, fifth-, and sixth-rounders plus Kenny Clark.

He drafted Jenkins, which is good, but Myers is barely a JAG, and his other later-round guys have not been Wolf or Ted-quality guys. Even Tom, who seemed so promising, seems to be a bit lost out there. But I suppose he could still turn out.

Guter's had some good picks, but the game is still won and lost in the trenches, and Guter gets a D or D+ there.

[bobblehead]

You guys crack me up. We went all in and got back to back NFCC games. Got 3 straight 13 win seasons. The relationship with ARod was so damaged he won back to back MVPs.

Now we are paying the price for going all in several years to maximize the end of ARods career. In the process we traded 2 aging stars for premier picks. The offense is playing with about as low of a payroll as you possibly can because our All world LT has milked a contract they should have waived long ago.

How about we give our rookie and 2nd year skill guys a chance to improve. We give our first year starter at QB a shot to see things a little faster. And maybe a year to fix an OL that has been broken due to injuries. We could use a new bookend LT and a new center. That alone will go a long way to turn our 2 win team into a 4 win team at this point. SF blew chunks before turning it around. They aquired Trent Williams and drafted top 5 a couple times and are now the class of the NFC. If we finish with the 6 or 7 wins that Rodgers got his rookie season then I'll see light. Remember how frustrated we were at all the 6 yard outs on 3rd and 9 during Rodgers first year starting?? I do.

[bobblehead]

I'll just ask, and its rhetorical. How would you like to be the team with a GM that traded a mountain of picks for Russell Wilson. Traded a couple premium picks for a 40 year old who blew his achilles in 4 snaps? How about the team that traded a 1st and 2nd for a great WR that needed to be paid like an UFA and then have a losing season?

We are going through a process. Losing sucks, I get it. But this hair on fire, burn them all at the stakes is pretty crazy even for an internet crowd....Barry can burn though. Thats reasonable.

[beveaux1]

You guys crack me up. We went all in and got back to back NFCC games. Got 3 straight 13 win seasons. The relationship with ARod was so damaged he won back to back MVPs.

Now we are paying the price for going all in several years to maximize the end of ARods career. In the process we traded 2 aging stars for premier picks. The offense is playing with about as low of a payroll as you possibly can because our All world LT has milked a contract they should have waived long ago.

How about we give our rookie and 2nd year skill guys a chance to improve. We give our first year starter at QB a shot to see things a little faster. And maybe a year to fix an OL that has been broken due to injuries. We could use a new bookend LT and a new center. That alone will go a long way to turn our 2 win team into a 4 win team at this point. SF blew chunks before turning it around. They aquired Trent Williams and drafted top 5 a couple times and are now the class of the NFC. If we finish with the 6 or 7 wins that Rodgers got his rookie season then I'll see light. Remember how frustrated we were at all the 6 yard outs on 3rd and 9 during Rodgers first year starting?? I do.

Actually, this is a very reasonable answer. I continue to be concerned about how good MLF is with a very young team. Is he a good teacher, or is he a chalkboard genius?

If he's a good teacher, we will see improvement along the OL, the WRs and TEs, and, of course, the QB. If not, we'll have plays like Wicks throwing the ball to A Jones every game.

[smuggler]

I'm not so sure I can blame Gute. Kind of disappointed with LaFluer and (to a lesser extent) Love right now.

[call_me_ishmael]

You guys crack me up. We went all in and got back to back NFCC games. Got 3 straight 13 win seasons. The relationship with ARod was so damaged he won back to back MVPs.

Now we are paying the price for going all in several years to maximize the end of ARods career. In the process we traded 2 aging stars for premier picks. The offense is playing with about as low of a payroll as you possibly can because our All world LT has milked a contract they should have waived long ago.

Counter point - did they use those picks well? Did they get good players with them? Early returns are not encouraging as the DL still cannot stop the run and the WR is afraid of the ball. Last year folks were thinking Chris Watson could turn into a poor man's Randy Moss. Right now I have my doubts that he is even a second contract kind of guy.

Agreed on the OL.


How about we give our rookie and 2nd year skill guys a chance to improve. We give our first year starter at QB a shot to see things a little faster. And maybe a year to fix an OL that has been broken due to injuries. We could use a new bookend LT and a new center. That alone will go a long way to turn our 2 win team into a 4 win team at this point. SF blew chunks before turning it around. They aquired Trent Williams and drafted top 5 a couple times and are now the class of the NFC. If we finish with the 6 or 7 wins that Rodgers got his rookie season then I'll see light. Remember how frustrated we were at all the 6 yard outs on 3rd and 9 during Rodgers first year starting?? I do.

They just look like total ass right now. They looked okay with the previous guy, an all-timer. They look like ass presently. I have posted before that Gooter kinda sucks as a drafter. He has done really well in the first round but he rarely gets 2-3 starters in a draft. Last year does look great though. The other years, kinda blah.


I'll just ask, and its rhetorical. How would you like to be the team with a GM that traded a mountain of picks for Russell Wilson. Traded a couple premium picks for a 40 year old who blew his achilles in 4 snaps? How about the team that traded a 1st and 2nd for a great WR that needed to be paid like an UFA and then have a losing season?

We are going through a process. Losing sucks, I get it. But this hair on fire, burn them all at the stakes is pretty crazy even for an internet crowd....Barry can burn though. Thats reasonable.

I have no problem with them rebuilding. But are they actually rebuilding effectively? Or are they on a path to perpetually suck while Gooter is there? I'm not so sure it's not the latter, although his R1 pick quality suggests if they keep doing that and resigning their guys they will at least be decent but never deep.

The team is ass right now because there are very few guys drafted deserving of second contracts:
2018 - 1 (Alexander)
2019 - 2 (Gary, Jenkins)
2020 - Maybe 1 (Love)
2021 - Maybe 1 (Stokes, Myers?)

[MadScientist]

You guys crack me up. We went all in and got back to back NFCC games. Got 3 straight 13 win seasons. The relationship with ARod was so damaged he won back to back MVPs.

Now we are paying the price for going all in several years to maximize the end of ARods career. In the process we traded 2 aging stars for premier picks. The offense is playing with about as low of a payroll as you possibly can because our All world LT has milked a contract they should have waived long ago.

How about we give our rookie and 2nd year skill guys a chance to improve. We give our first year starter at QB a shot to see things a little faster. And maybe a year to fix an OL that has been broken due to injuries. We could use a new bookend LT and a new center. That alone will go a long way to turn our 2 win team into a 4 win team at this point. SF blew chunks before turning it around. They aquired Trent Williams and drafted top 5 a couple times and are now the class of the NFC. If we finish with the 6 or 7 wins that Rodgers got his rookie season then I'll see light. Remember how frustrated we were at all the 6 yard outs on 3rd and 9 during Rodgers first year starting?? I do.

7 games, plus a bye are enough to expect to see some signs of improvement. We are not seeing any. Doubs and Watson look worse than last year. Love's accuracy is not getting better, and the running game is weak, both in design and execution. Even if you think the players have the talent, the pathetic showing in the first half of every game shows a sever coaching problem that needs to be dealt with.

[Fritz]

You guys crack me up. We went all in and got back to back NFCC games. Got 3 straight 13 win seasons. The relationship with ARod was so damaged he won back to back MVPs.

Now we are paying the price for going all in several years to maximize the end of ARods career. In the process we traded 2 aging stars for premier picks. The offense is playing with about as low of a payroll as you possibly can because our All world LT has milked a contract they should have waived long ago.

How about we give our rookie and 2nd year skill guys a chance to improve. We give our first year starter at QB a shot to see things a little faster. And maybe a year to fix an OL that has been broken due to injuries. We could use a new bookend LT and a new center. That alone will go a long way to turn our 2 win team into a 4 win team at this point. SF blew chunks before turning it around. They aquired Trent Williams and drafted top 5 a couple times and are now the class of the NFC. If we finish with the 6 or 7 wins that Rodgers got his rookie season then I'll see light. Remember how frustrated we were at all the 6 yard outs on 3rd and 9 during Rodgers first year starting?? I do.

Look at what I wrote - I didn't say Guter was a tire fire or anything like that. But I pointed out that his defensive and offensive lines - where the game is won - are not playing well. Offensively you can make a better argument that they'll get better, as Tom is a second year guy and Walker is, too - but the defensive line? Will a fourth and sixth round pick on the D-line show enough improvement to make that the kind of dominant unit you need? Probably not. And Wyatt, in his second year, seems to have not improved.

I'm not anti-Guter.I am saying he hasn't done so well in the trenches.

[Bretsky]

Gutebag built this team to absolutely dominate on defense via the NFL Draft. This has been an EPIC Failure.

Gutebag gave up both a 1st and 4th round draft pick on Love. At this point he looks like a disappointment. I think he might be OK; we don't want to pay for an OK quarterback.

I'm not calling for him to be fired, but any means. But he's average at best currently. 8 First rounders on defense and the results are not there.

Drafted a Center who he fell in love that was his guy wit....had everybody WTF .....did he get drunk and forgot Creed Humphrey has not been drafted yet ?
.
Broke the bank for a LT who he should've found a way to dump by now. Our OL is pretty disappointing this year

[King Friday]

Not sure I can fault Gute on Bahk, as that was to placate Rodgers. I doubt Gute gives him the huge deal without the Rodgers dynamic.

His high end draft capital has been mediocre at best. To me, a really good GM will hit solid starter on more than 50% of his top 100 picks. Let’s review Gute…5* is great starter, 3* is solid starter, 1* is hot garbage

2018: Jaire 5*, Jackson 1*, Burks 1* (33%)
2019: Gary 5*, Savage 1*, Jenkins 5*, Sternburger 1* (50%)
2020: Love 3*, Dillon 3*, Deguara 1* (66%)
2021: Stokes 1*, Myers 1*, Rodgers 1* (0%)
2022: Walker 3*, Wyatt 1*, Watson 3*, Rhyan 1* (50%)

Really hasn’t hit on anything solid for several years. Quay has probably been his best pick since 2019. The jury is still kind of out on Love. I think he can be a solid starter, but that isn’t what you want at QB even if it works at other positions. Stokes pick may be one you don’t consider due to the injuries.

7 for 17 is a poor track record in the top 100.

[sharpe1027]

.

Gutebag gave up both a 1st and 4th round draft pick on Love. At this point he looks like a disappointment. I think he might be OK; we don't want to pay for an OK quarterback.

To be fair, Love was a late first round pick. Getting a starting QB that late isn't a sure thing, much less getting a good QB that can carry a team.

[Sparkey]

7 games, plus a bye are enough to expect to see some signs of improvement. We are not seeing any. Doubs and Watson look worse than last year. Love's accuracy is not getting better, and the running game is weak, both in design and execution. Even if you think the players have the talent, the pathetic showing in the first half of every game shows a sever coaching problem that needs to be dealt with.

Love completed 67% of his passes Sunday. The penalties and terrible run blocking are killing the offense.

[call_me_ishmael]

Not sure I can fault Gute on Bahk, as that was to placate Rodgers. I doubt Gute gives him the huge deal without the Rodgers dynamic.

His high end draft capital has been mediocre at best. To me, a really good GM will hit solid starter on more than 50% of his top 100 picks. Let’s review Gute…5* is great starter, 3* is solid starter, 1* is hot garbage

2018: Jaire 5*, Jackson 1*, Burks 1* (33%)
2019: Gary 5*, Savage 1*, Jenkins 5*, Sternburger 1* (50%)
2020: Love 3*, Dillon 3*, Deguara 1* (66%)
2021: Stokes 1*, Myers 1*, Rodgers 1* (0%)
2022: Walker 3*, Wyatt 1*, Watson 3*, Rhyan 1* (50%)

Really hasn’t hit on anything solid for several years. Quay has probably been his best pick since 2019. The jury is still kind of out on Love. I think he can be a solid starter, but that isn’t what you want at QB even if it works at other positions. Stokes pick may be one you don’t consider due to the injuries.

7 for 17 is a poor track record in the top 100.

I sort of agree with you but I also think he should get credit that his R1 hits shine very brightly instead of being just good players. Both are top 5 type guys at their positions. That's pretty rare.

We don't talk enough about how AJ Dillon ran a 4.4 and now runs a 5.4

[sharpe1027]

Love completed 67% of his passes Sunday. The penalties and terrible run blocking are killing the offense.

How many of the completions hit the target in stride and didn't require the receiver to make a difficult adjustment?

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Elgton Jenkins is a two time Pro Bowler, he was a good pick. The GMs who took Metcalf and Brown in R2 also took LJ Collier and Andre Dillard in R1. EVERY GM passed on Deebo in R1.

As for Love, I preferred Jalen Hurts (more accurate in college, higher level of competition) to Jordan Love, but many scouts liked Love's arm and ability to play off-schedule. He was a Top 40 pick at a minimum. Picking a RB high is dicey at best; you don't do it unless you have a game-changer. That was the mistake with Dillon in R2. You can find dynamic or even serviceable RBs in Day 3, as has been proven by GB with Jamaal/AJones.

EVERY GM has swings and misses, just because you liked a player better that GB didn't take doesn't make the GM bad. Most people were WTF with Rodgers and Nick Collins

Would the Packers be a better team with Tom at LG, Nijman at RT and Metcalf and Brown at WR, or with the current lineup of Fucking Center at LG, Tom at RT and Christine and Doubs at WR?

Point is, the Packers wouldn’t miss a fucking beat with Tom playing LG instead of the “Pro Bowler” Fucking Center. Hell, Tom, a 4th rounder, is already a better tackle than the Fucking Center. Christine can’t hold Metcalf’s jockstrap. Doubs can’t hold Browns’ jockstrap.

Never use premium picks on Yokozunas.

[MadScientist]

Love completed 67% of his passes Sunday. The penalties and terrible run blocking are killing the offense.

Most of these were short passes. He is constantly behind the receiver on deeper passes. He was behind both receivers on the touchdown passes. It was only great effort by Doubs to take the balk away from the defender on the first and absolute luck on the second that made this debacle close. That other elements of the offense suck doesn't change the fact that Love hasn't been playing good enough.

[bobblehead]

Counter point - did they use those picks well? Did they get good players with them? Early returns are not encouraging as the DL still cannot stop the run and the WR is afraid of the ball. Last year folks were thinking Chris Watson could turn into a poor man's Randy Moss. Right now I have my doubts that he is even a second contract kind of guy.

Watson is lightning. He is ascending. Given the offense as a whole I'm not disappointed in how they used that pick at all. Quay is a flat out stud you can build a defense around. So yes, I think we used the Devante picks well. Musgrave is the only pick in so far on the Rodgers deal and he has been more productive than Rodgers. He is a rookie TE and will be around for a decade. So far, yes, we used that pick well.

Agreed on the OL.



They just look like total ass right now. They looked okay with the previous guy, an all-timer. They look like ass presently. I have posted before that Gooter kinda sucks as a drafter. He has done really well in the first round but he rarely gets 2-3 starters in a draft. Last year does look great though. The other years, kinda blah.

They looked like ass last season with the previous guy as well. How quickly you forget. Jesus, did you watch last season?? Tell me how the last guy whooped Detroit compared to this guy. Almost every splash play in Watson's short career happened with Love throwing the ball, or him taking a handoff. Thats just a truth. And in Gutes defense he traded up to "win now" and lost picks in previous drafts. Traded 4ths mainly. How has he performed in the 4th lately? Doubs and Tom come to mind. I'm even liking Wooden a bit for a rook.

I have no problem with them rebuilding. But are they actually rebuilding effectively? Or are they on a path to perpetually suck while Gooter is there? I'm not so sure it's not the latter, although his R1 pick quality suggests if they keep doing that and resigning their guys they will at least be decent but never deep.

The team is ass right now because there are very few guys drafted deserving of second contracts:
2018 - 1 (Alexander)
2019 - 2 (Gary, Jenkins)
2020 - Maybe 1 (Love)
2021 - Maybe 1 (Stokes, Myers?)

Could they be bad because the entire O is on rookie deals? Could it be because Alexander keeps missing games? Could it be because we have a mountain of money tied to a LT that can't walk? Could a rookie kicker be the reason we aren't one win better (remember we didn't develop a new kicker while "winning now"). How about relying on entirely 1st and 2nd year pass catchers because we had to keep Lazard and Cobb around for "the last guy"? And Joe Barry....you can bitch about him, but he isn't why we lost the last 2.


..

[bobblehead]

7 games, plus a bye are enough to expect to see some signs of improvement. We are not seeing any. Doubs and Watson look worse than last year. Love's accuracy is not getting better, and the running game is weak, both in design and execution. Even if you think the players have the talent, the pathetic showing in the first half of every game shows a sever coaching problem that needs to be dealt with.

Young players are uneven. MiLF has proven himself over several seasons. We will take our lumps this year. Just the way it works. Remember how Tua looked as a first year starter with no one around him? We need an infusion of OL talent. The left side of the line got date raped vs. Denver. You won't be effective when that happens. The running game is weak in design? You are qualified to assess that? (maybe you are, but you haven't laid it out). This is the same "design" the 49ers and Rams run. The same design the Shannahans have run for decades. Basically the best design in pro football. We aren't executing right now because our LT and C can't run block. Meyers isn't even finding guys in space which was his strength coming out. I always told everyone that Baks best strength was how under rated he was as a run blocker. And honestly, if MiLF should be shot for anything its for his 3 year refusal to just let Yosh play. Replaced him 2x on the eve of the playoffs and lost. Now won't put him on the field despite the entire OL shitting themselves (ok, Tom has been mostly good, and Elgton was before last week).

[bobblehead]

Look at what I wrote - I didn't say Guter was a tire fire or anything like that. But I pointed out that his defensive and offensive lines - where the game is won - are not playing well. Offensively you can make a better argument that they'll get better, as Tom is a second year guy and Walker is, too - but the defensive line? Will a fourth and sixth round pick on the D-line show enough improvement to make that the kind of dominant unit you need? Probably not. And Wyatt, in his second year, seems to have not improved.

I'm not anti-Guter.I am saying he hasn't done so well in the trenches.

This is fair. I actually have faith in the DL as a whole. I think Wyatt is solid. Clark is over paid at this point. If I have to hear another announcer talk about how disruptive he is right after we gave up 3 straight 10 yard runs I'll need a new TV. I like the rooks for rooks. We will need a heavy infusion of big men in the very near future.

[bobblehead]

Not sure I can fault Gute on Bahk, as that was to placate Rodgers. I doubt Gute gives him the huge deal without the Rodgers dynamic.

His high end draft capital has been mediocre at best. To me, a really good GM will hit solid starter on more than 50% of his top 100 picks. Let’s review Gute…5* is great starter, 3* is solid starter, 1* is hot garbage

2018: Jaire 5*, Jackson 1*, Burks 1* (33%)
2019: Gary 5*, Savage 1*, Jenkins 5*, Sternburger 1* (50%)
2020: Love 3*, Dillon 3*, Deguara 1* (66%)
2021: Stokes 1*, Myers 1*, Rodgers 1* (0%)
2022: Walker 3*, Wyatt 1*, Watson 3*, Rhyan 1* (50%)

Really hasn’t hit on anything solid for several years. Quay has probably been his best pick since 2019. The jury is still kind of out on Love. I think he can be a solid starter, but that isn’t what you want at QB even if it works at other positions. Stokes pick may be one you don’t consider due to the injuries.

7 for 17 is a poor track record in the top 100.

Disagree on Stokes and Wyatt. Stokes got hurt, but was pretty good. Wyatt is a 3* and may still improve.

[bobblehead]

To be fair, Love was a late first round pick. Getting a starting QB that late isn't a sure thing, much less getting a good QB that can carry a team.

QBs that can carry a team are rare. Maybe 5-7 at any time. Then another 10 you can win with. There's always 10-15 QBs starting that you can't win with. Not a championship anyway. I think you can win with Love, but not on a big contract. Not if you ask him to carry a team.

[bobblehead]

How many of the completions hit the target in stride and didn't require the receiver to make a difficult adjustment?

How many dropped passes or wrong routes were there?

[bobblehead]

Most of these were short passes. He is constantly behind the receiver on deeper passes. He was behind both receivers on the touchdown passes. It was only great effort by Doubs to take the balk away from the defender on the first and absolute luck on the second that made this debacle close. That other elements of the offense suck doesn't change the fact that Love hasn't been playing good enough.

Was the 2nd luck, or should Doubs have caught that pass? It was hot, but it was right on target.

[sharpe1027]

How many dropped passes or wrong routes were there?

Dropped passes don't have an relevance whether or not the ball was delivered to the right location. Wrong routes could, but it didn't look like wrong routes to my amateur eyes.

[MadScientist]

Was the 2nd luck, or should Doubs have caught that pass? It was hot, but it was right on target.

2nd one was behind Doubs, and hot enough he couldn't react in time. If it was on the money and not caught, it would not have bounced in the direction it did.

[SkinBasket]

You guys crack me up…. We give our first year starter at QB a shot to see things a little faster.

LO Fucking L. He ain’t no “first year starter,” at QB. He’s had years to learn this shit where most 1st round picks get weeks. FUCKING WEEKS! Do you understand?! Love is a fucking failure. And THAT is the only thing holding this team back from being an interesting way to spend your Sunday free time. Love is literally the football equivalent of Joe Biden. He has been coached into a position that he has no business occupying.

[Bretsky]

How many dropped passes or wrong routes were there?



Who takes the fall ? Gutebag for not getting him a veteran who would know football ehought to run the right routes...aka...a security blanket....the coaching for the players perhaps not being ready, or the Love machine for lacking accuracy ?

[call_me_ishmael]

I mean the dudes are year two players. I think for the one dude he's third year even. I don't personally put a lot of stock in that - they had a whole year already. By year two of something, you are ramped up pretty well in the process.

They have a QB and coach that should be on their ass if they don't know their stuff. It isn't that hard.

[bobblehead]

Dropped passes don't have an relevance whether or not the ball was delivered to the right location. Wrong routes could, but it didn't look like wrong routes to my amateur eyes.

I saw one play that stood out (admittedly it was only one). There were 3 guys stacked within 5 yards of each other on the bottom of the screen where Love tried to throw it. I'll criticize him for not just throwing it away, but someone clearly wasn't where they were supposed to be.

Overall though I generally agree that he is behind a running target way too often. But he also isn't getting to set his feet and deliver a pass in rhythm. There have been flashes, although not enough.

[bobblehead]

LO Fucking L. He ain’t no “first year starter,” at QB. He’s had years to learn this shit where most 1st round picks get weeks. FUCKING WEEKS! Do you understand?! Love is a fucking failure. And THAT is the only thing holding this team back from being an interesting way to spend your Sunday free time. Love is literally the football equivalent of Joe Biden. He has been coached into a position that he has no business occupying.

Bringing up politics just hoping to get banned before you beclown yourself? He is clearly a first year starter. Not sure what your definition of that is if its not "the first year he is a starter". And unlike you, I'm addressing the GENERAL level of panic here, not obsessing over one aspect of it. You should come over to FYI, we need more discussion. Maybe a new perspective.

After week 2 the media was declaring we had found our 3rd HoF QB in a row. A few games later and he couldn't win a pee wee game. Its human nature I guess to over react to everything (or if you are Tex to think all is well despite every shred of evidence to the contrary).

[bobblehead]

2nd one was behind Doubs, and hot enough he couldn't react in time. If it was on the money and not caught, it would not have bounced in the direction it did.

A defender stood up and messed up the route. Love threw it to the spot it needed to be at a speed it needed to get there. Doubs would tell you he should have caught it. Given that it was a designed quick hit, the only other option Love had was to throw it into the dirt.

[bobblehead]

Who takes the fall ? Gutebag for not getting him a veteran who would know football ehought to run the right routes...aka...a security blanket....the coaching for the players perhaps not being ready, or the Love machine for lacking accuracy ?

I don't want anyone to take the fall yet. We went all in for several seasons and being young and doing things poorly in 2023 is a result. I don't want enough veteran talent to win 9 games and pick 18th unless its enough to win an owl (which it can't be with this roster). If we don't improve over the season and if we are still bad midway through next season then heads have to roll. Then you have to look at all of it, as right now there is blame to go around (except Gutes who ceded to fan demand to "go all in"). He isn't responsible unless we just see a lack of ascension from the picks. Personally I have pretty high hopes for this team in a year. If we come up short I would say it will be because Love fails. Right now, his failures have a lot to do with many factors. The only one I don't see improving much is his lack of accuracy downfield.

[bobblehead]

I mean the dudes are year two players. I think for the one dude he's third year even. I don't personally put a lot of stock in that - they had a whole year already. By year two of something, you are ramped up pretty well in the process.

They have a QB and coach that should be on their ass if they don't know their stuff. It isn't that hard.

I was going to cut and paste a few stats from guys like Adams who couldn't break 500 yards through 2 seasons. Or Jordy who failed to reach 400 through 2 seasons. Or nearly any TE in history who couldn't get to 600 yards through 2 seasons. Or how awesome Mike Wahle or TJ Lang were as rooks. Or remind people of how things looked when Marshal Newhouse was forced into action due to injury.

Cutting and pasting doesn't work very well here, but you get the point. But for reference Watson had 600 and 7 scores as a rookie. Better than all in recent history other than Jennings who was similar as a rookie and broke out in year 2. For reference Tom looked better as a rookie than anyone I can recall except maybe Jenkins. He still should be a guard, but I digress.

[texaspackerbacker]

I pretty much agree with bobblehead. This poll is basically asking how bad you think it’s gonna be.There’s a lot of reasons to be optimistic about the offense (although those receiver comparisons have a lot to do with who else played the position at the time).

I say again, the problem pure and simple is Joe Barry. The only way either LaFleur or Gutekunst are gone is if they hang on too long to that piece of crap.

[run pMc]

I think most people thought this year would be rocky; are people surprised? I'm disgusted by some of the bad/ugly play execution (and some play calls), but I'm not surprised. Development/improvement of young players is not a linear thing.
This is a pretty low point for the team.
I think GB has better talent than LV or DEN and they lost to both.

If this team is garbage this year but grows into a perennial playoff contender in 2024 and beyond, does this year matter that much? The 2005 season was a tire fire, but it's easy to forget given the stretch that followed.

There are definitely things they can do this year to get better - the coaches and the players.
I don't think a lot of this is on Gute tbh, they tried to keep the Rodgers teams together as long as possible and this is the take-your-medicine year. They still have talent and will have some decent draft capital to continue to build (and hopefully a little more cap space).

There is no mid-season answer to their problems outside the building.

[Fritz]

I'm trying to imagine what I thought a 2 - 4 record would look like at this point. I think I was hoping for the defense to hold up and keep other teams at twenty or under - which they have, four of the six games. Yet I'm still disappointed in the defense - as Rasul Douglas has pointed out, if your defense is handed a lead and can't hold it, it doesn't matter that you held the other team to X points - you didn't hold the lead. So why am I disappointed? Because they don't seem to tackle well? Because they don't seem physical and tough? Heck, I don't know. Twenty points and under four games so far? On paper, not bad - though of course those were mostly shitty teams...

Offensively, I thought they'd look sloppy but show flashes. Have they done that? Have there been flashes? I'm a little nervous about Love's lack of accuracy - probably my biggest concern with the offense right now. The youngsters are making lots of mistakes, but they receivers and tight ends will get better at route running and blocking. Maybe Rasheed Walker will even develop? Maybe Tom will get better too as he settles in more? But Runyan and Myer have been pretty piss poor, and even Elgton Jenkins isn't looking as good as his contract. Don't know if playing hurt is part of that.

So I thought I was okay with a rough year, but maybe I'm not? I'm not sure how what I'm seeing is much different than what I thought I'd see, yet I'm still concerned. Hell, I don't know.

[MadScientist]

I pretty much agree with bobblehead. This poll is basically asking how bad you think it’s gonna be.There’s a lot of reasons to be optimistic about the offense (although those receiver comparisons have a lot to do with who else played the position at the time).

I say again, the problem pure and simple is Joe Barry. The only way either LaFleur or Gutekunst are gone is if they hang on too long to that piece of crap.

I'm not going to sing the defense's praises, but looking at the scoreboard, it's the offense that has been shitting the bed for the Packers. The strange thing is that they generally look decent coming out for the second half. It's the complete failure in the first half that is sinking them. The OC/MLF are not getting them prepared for the game. They should definitely be feeling the heat right now.

[call_me_ishmael]

Man, the Packers drafts from 2013 on are just total shit. It is a miracle they contended three years and really a testament to how good Adams and Rodgers were. They got by on star power by having the top 2-3 guys at important spots, and absolutely nailing the FA picks in Z, Prestone and Safety and Utility OL dude.

They don’t have anybody from 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, Alexander from 2018, Gary will be the only 2019 left after next year, and Love will be the only 2020 guy to get an extension. Just pure shit across the board.

[bobblehead]

Man, the Packers drafts from 2013 on are just total shit. It is a miracle they contended three years and really a testament to how good Adams and Rodgers were. They got by on star power by having the top 2-3 guys at important spots, and absolutely nailing the FA picks in Z, Prestone and Safety and Utility OL dude.

They don’t have anybody from 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, Alexander from 2018, Gary will be the only 2019 left after next year, and Love will be the only 2020 guy to get an extension. Just pure shit across the board.

I'm guessing you're just forgetting Jenkins and not being dishonest. Also I think Savage may be back on a modest deal more fitting of his talent. 2014 would be a descending player based on age, and those were all the last drafts of Thompson when clearly he wasn't right. We drafted a lot of "contributors" when we were in win now mode. And its fair to say Gutes got off to a rocky start with his picks. Its also very possible Runyan will be back for the right price.

I'll add in that if you criticize Gutes for drafts you have to credit him for finding Douglas, Ford, and Campbell. The big critiques should come for his continuing the GB trend in the 3rd. Man what a bunch of turds. Next year will tell a lot. Will the young guys ascend or not. Quay and Watson have flashed big time potential. Enagbare looks like a 5th round steal. Doubs and Tom just need consistency. Stokes needs health.

Our roster looks like a team that went all in and failed. That will lead to the situation you describe where some guys like MVS were priced out. The all pro LT can't stay on the field. The aging stars have finally moved on.

[Bretsky]

I"m not convinced signing Campbell to that contract was the right move as of yet. Big credit for Douglas.

[Fritz]

After that great first year, Campbell does seem to have become more of a JAG. But maybe he does things, little things, that I can't see. I don't know.

Nobody's mentioned Mark Murphy. HE'S the guy who let Ted hang on about two years too long. A tough call to make, but I still think Ted would've been secretly happy to just be a scout those last couple of years. And making tough calls is why Murphy gets the big bucks.

Then there's his crazy silo stuff - still not sure that's working great. I suppose we'll see. But I'm not a big Murphy fan.

[Bretsky]

I'm guessing you're just forgetting Jenkins and not being dishonest. Also I think Savage may be back on a modest deal more fitting of his talent. 2014 would be a descending player based on age, and those were all the last drafts of Thompson when clearly he wasn't right. We drafted a lot of "contributors" when we were in win now mode. And its fair to say Gutes got off to a rocky start with his picks. Its also very possible Runyan will be back for the right price.

I'll add in that if you criticize Gutes for drafts you have to credit him for finding Douglas, Ford, and Campbell. The big critiques should come for his continuing the GB trend in the 3rd. Man what a bunch of turds. Next year will tell a lot. Will the young guys ascend or not. Quay and Watson have flashed big time potential. Enagbare looks like a 5th round steal. Doubs and Tom just need consistency. Stokes needs health.

Our roster looks like a team that went all in and failed. That will lead to the situation you describe where some guys like MVS were priced out. The all pro LT can't stay on the field. The aging stars have finally moved on.



To be fair at this point you can't conider Savage a good "1st" round draft pick. He seems like a marginal starter at best which is not what you look for that high.

A very interesting question...would be............WHO HAS REALLY IMPROVED THE LAST FEW YEARS ???....well...besides Rashan Gary

Serious questions about this coaching staff

[King Friday]

Yeah, the coaching staff probably should endure more blame over current roster issues. Since MLF showed up, there has been precious little improvement among any young players. A couple rookies have looked good to start with, but really haven’t taken another step forward.

[bobblehead]

To be fair at this point you can't conider Savage a good "1st" round draft pick. He seems like a marginal starter at best which is not what you look for that high.

A very interesting question...would be............WHO HAS REALLY IMPROVED THE LAST FEW YEARS ???....well...besides Rashan Gary

Serious questions about this coaching staff

I'm president of the hate savage club, but before injury he wasn't the weak spot on the D. He was a "bad starter". If he can play like he started this year he will be Darren College. Start for 10 years and piss fans off the entire time.

[run pMc]

I think Gute is a good assembler of athletic talent. I'm not sure how good he is at team building to a scheme.
One thing that keeps dogging at me: how many players have they drafted that have had good rookie seasons and then bad year 2/3?

I might be misremembering but off the top of my head I can think of Royce Newman, AJ Dillon, JRJ, (probably)Christian Watson, Savage, Stokes, maybe even Zach Tom. Point is, I'm not sure that once these guys get in the system, they get good coaching or development. That's on the coaches (and to an extent the players).

For a draft and develop team, the 'develop' part feels shakier than the 'draft' part to me.

[bobblehead]

I think Gute is a good assembler of athletic talent. I'm not sure how good he is at team building to a scheme.
One thing that keeps dogging at me: how many players have they drafted that have had good rookie seasons and then bad year 2/3?

I might be misremembering but off the top of my head I can think of Royce Newman, AJ Dillon, JRJ, (probably)Christian Watson, Savage, Stokes, maybe even Zach Tom. Point is, I'm not sure that once these guys get in the system, they get good coaching or development. That's on the coaches (and to an extent the players).

For a draft and develop team, the 'develop' part feels shakier than the 'draft' part to me.

Some of what you describe is that guys were put in better situations. I won't address all of it, but lets just look at this. Dillon was running behind a healthier better line and playing while ahead in games. Newman was next to a veteran C and T iirc. JRJ was on the other side next to an even better T. Savage was playing with WORSE dbs and wasn't exposed as often.

I'll say it again. Symbiotic. When/IF they all start improving the difference will be stark. I'm mainly blaming the offensive woes on the OL, same as early last year. This staffs decision to go with Walker over Nijman is hurting the entire offense. But the fact they were forced to choose because of Bak is the root problem. Just imagine if Bak were healthy and we lined up Bak, Jenkins, Tom, JRJ, Yosh. I think the product on the field would be a world different. They need to draft one of the top tackles early next year. And honestly they will then probably need one more guy if they insist on letting Yosh walk. When that happens the entire offense improves, and the improvement of each tacks on to itself. Run better, pass better and vice versa. 1 more second for a route to develop and suddenly the WRs all get a bit more separation. Rookie TEs learn to play instead of think. If we inject just one bookend LT next season this team might not resemble anything close to what you see right now. Or it could go a completely different direction.....can't say for certain.

[Fritz]

Of course, even if they draft a couple of tackles and a center or guard or both, you'll have rookies who need to develop on the line, so they won't be all that great...
Looks like a longer rebuild than maybe we thought.

[run pMc]

Agree bobble, I think OL is the source of many of their problems on offense. They should have an opportunity to add a quality LT and that would settle a few things. They might also have more cap space to sign a C or G, and they can draft/develop another. There's a slim chance Bakhtiari comes back healthy and plays, but honestly I think he's done unless he agrees to redo his contract (and I don't think he will). The WR's inability to separate is a concern, but I think it can be learned with time.

I could easily see them go with a QB over a LT if they are drafting high enough, I'm not sure they will though. There are a LOT of bad teams who will need a QB.

I still think they are (at the moment) better at drafting than at developing who they draft.

[MadScientist]

I think Gute is a good assembler of athletic talent. I'm not sure how good he is at team building to a scheme.
One thing that keeps dogging at me: how many players have they drafted that have had good rookie seasons and then bad year 2/3?

I might be misremembering but off the top of my head I can think of Royce Newman, AJ Dillon, JRJ, (probably)Christian Watson, Savage, Stokes, maybe even Zach Tom. Point is, I'm not sure that once these guys get in the system, they get good coaching or development. That's on the coaches (and to an extent the players).

For a draft and develop team, the 'develop' part feels shakier than the 'draft' part to me.
I'm not so sure he's all that good at assembling talent. His 2019 draft was decent, but 2020 and 2021 were not good. The jury is still out on 22 and 23, but most of the 22 draft seems to be taking a step back, so not looking great for that year either. He did ok in FA, when there was cap space, but you can't really build a team in FA. I would agree that the develop part of draft and develop isn't looking good, but I don't think the draft part is all that good either. Clean house, restart, and try not to spend a decade at the bottom. Get some people from successful organizations that are ready for promotion, because an outside perspective is needed.

[bobblehead]

Of course, even if they draft a couple of tackles and a center or guard or both, you'll have rookies who need to develop on the line, so they won't be all that great...
Looks like a longer rebuild than maybe we thought.

Some positions take longer to be effective. Usually the higher pick OL are ready on day 1, as are RBs and good instinctive LBs. Others take a minute like later drafted OL/DL that need strength, TEs that need to learn multiple responsibilities.

[bobblehead]

Should we reflect more on Gutes? I have ridden the roller coaster and I consistently say the proof is in the results. Right now his last couple drafts look really fucking good. The moral of the story is trade down, not up. He has killed it by trading down. He has crushed the 4th round since he stopped trading all our 4ths.

Its going to be a hell of a finish to this season. Its been emotionally draining. I started out hating Gutes, then liking him, then saying his draft picks aren't performing to where we are now. In a post above I said its symbiotic. Everyone is improving incrementally and the overall improvement is pretty big. Can they keep it up? You can't luck into beating two really good teams with really good records back to back...but you can't be as good as we have looked with that awful stretch on tape.

Heres to riding it out til the end.

[run pMc]

I agree he's done well the last two drafts. I also agree he's had some drafts that were shaky at best.
If there's 1-2 players left from 2016 (for example), that's not a great draft but not terrible either, depending on those 1-2 players and what you got from the others. 7 years is a lifetime in the NFL. Agree if you get nobody long term from a draft (i.e., 7+ seasons) then you probably had a bad draft.
It might be helpful to look at a draft from whether the player made it to the end of their contract, and if they were signed to a 2nd contract.

Picking on 2016 randomly (a TT year, inind you), GB still has Kenny Clark. They got meaningful snaps from Kyler Fackrell and Blake Martinez, and they gave a 2nd contract to Dean Lowry (who was wisely allowed to sign a 3rd contract with MIN and is on IR). That's not a franchise-foundational draft, but it's not horrible either. Sure, you'd like to have picked Tyreek Hill over Trevor Davis in R6, and maybe not give up so much for Jason Spriggs, but if you go back and look at that draft and how some other teams did, it wasn't bad.

Someone in GB's pro personnel scouting is pretty good at finding guys who were basically on the scrapheap - Campbell, Douglas, Ballentine, Rudy Ford. Even getting Jared Veldheer off the couch.
Gute's done pretty good in FA too, and we saw with Smiths/Turner/Amos.

I'd give Gute a B grade. He's not GM of the year, but he's not horrible either. I think having a lot of picks helps -- it's like swings at the plate in baseball. At some point -- possibly this upcoming draft -- he's going to have more picks than roster spots, and that will be interesting. I'd expect him to trade for future picks or trade up in that case. (Personally, I'd prefer trading for future picks. It's less satisfying, but I'd happily part with a R3 pick to some team for their R2 in the next year. Don't think teams do that much anymore though.)

[call_me_ishmael]

We know TT was always able to draft receivers - he just stopped doing it after Adams.

Conversely Gooter's early receivers kinda sucked, but now these dudes the past two years seem like they are all NFL guys and going to be good players. Did he just get really lucky or what he has changed? Wicks seems like he could be a future star, same with Reed. Doubs is an NFL player but will never be a star. Maybe Watson could be a star. But hot damn there receiving corps went from shit to really promising in a hurry.

[Bretsky]

Should we reflect more on Gutes? I have ridden the roller coaster and I consistently say the proof is in the results. Right now his last couple drafts look really fucking good. The moral of the story is trade down, not up. He has killed it by trading down. He has crushed the 4th round since he stopped trading all our 4ths.

Its going to be a hell of a finish to this season. Its been emotionally draining. I started out hating Gutes, then liking him, then saying his draft picks aren't performing to where we are now. In a post above I said its symbiotic. Everyone is improving incrementally and the overall improvement is pretty big. Can they keep it up? You can't luck into beating two really good teams with really good records back to back...but you can't be as good as we have looked with that awful stretch on tape.

Heres to riding it out til the end.



I think we have to great the FLOWER a LOT HIGHER as well.

[RashanGary]

2022
1 Quay
1 D Wyatt
2 Watson
3 Rhyan
4 Doubs
4 Tom
5 Enagbare
7 Rasheed Walker



2023
1 VanNess
2 Musgrave
2 Jayden Reed
3 Tucker Kraft
4 Colby Wooden
5 Wicks
6 Karl Brooks
7 Carrington Valentine
7 Anthony Johnson

Maybe 17 players from 2 drafts?? Has that ever happened?

[RashanGary]

These two drafts and the luck of hitting on Love…. That’s recipe for an Owl soon. Gute might not be the fans whipping boy anymore. He might even be a packer HOFer at the rate it’s going now.

Gute might have even fucked around and hit a probowler and three starters in the 7th round in two years time. Valentine doesn’t just look ok, as a rookie, he’s as good as Jaire and Tramon were. And a starting LT. WOW

[texaspackerbacker]

My position on Gutekunst was that he had done a great job except for the glaring mistake of trading up and using a first round pick on Love. I still think alienating the GOAT by that move was a mistake. However, I came around - earlier than most, I think, to seeing the greatness of Love. So even that now is a good move.

I was saying this group of receivers was excellent when a lot of people were knocking them. He loaded up the D with probable quality personnel - if the coordinator can just use them right. That includes bringing in decent scrap heap players and other UDFAs both on O and D. That leaves the O Line, which I'm not gonna brag on except to say we have won a helluva lot of games the past couple decades with personnel no better than what we have now. I expect that to continue.

[call_me_ishmael]

These two drafts and the luck of hitting on Love…. That’s recipe for an Owl soon. Gute might not be the fans whipping boy anymore. He might even be a packer HOFer at the rate it’s going now.

Gute might have even fucked around and hit a probowler and three starters in the 7th round in two years time. Valentine doesn’t just look ok, as a rookie, he’s as good as Jaire and Tramon were. And a starting LT. WOW

If that dude is your starting LT, you're in trouble.

Easy there Neon Hawkins :). Valentine doesn't look as good as Jaire, come on now. Valentine looks like he could be a good player but so did Quinton Rollins and LaDarius Gunter for a minute there. It is way too early to tell with him IMO.

[Freak Out]

The rookies are killing it. Look at the team that just beat KC. Wild.

[RashanGary]

If that dude is your starting LT, you're in trouble.

Easy there Neon Hawkins :). Valentine doesn't look as good as Jaire, come on now. Valentine looks like he could be a good player but so did Quinton Rollins and LaDarius Gunter for a minute there. It is way too early to tell with him IMO.

Hahaha.

He’s as good as a rookie as Tramon and jaire were in their maiden voyages is what I’m saying. Not as good as Jaire became.

[RashanGary]

Last five weeks for Rasheed Walker:

One sack allowed (Khalil Mack poking the ball out during Love's windup)
74.7 @PFF OFF Grade (T9/55 NFL OTs)
69.2 @PFF Run Block Grade (14/55 NFL OTs)
73.8 @PFF Pass Block Grade (17/55 NFL OTs)

He's #3 in the NFL at tackle in PBWR at 94%.


Top 20 out of 64 starting tackles. He’s from the 7th round and still should get better next year. That’s not a bad pick at all. Could be a top 15 or maybe even top 10 tackle if he really puts his heart in it. Valentine looks like a future lock down corner from the 7th round.

Gute is cooking. He might fuck around and win an Owl.

[run pMc]

Agree it's early on the rookies but very promising. If they continue to build on this and improve next year, look out. There have been a lot of one-year wonders, or players who are just on hot streaks and peak early for GB. If they prove it's repeatable over 2+ seasons then I'm on board.
They are getting a lot of important contributions from young players, and there's plenty of blame/credit to go around for that. Certainly Gute deserves some.

As for Walker, he's everything physically you want in a T, and he's been better since they did the sharing with Njiman thing, but I think his run blocking is still iffy and his footwork/fundamentals are bad. If he can really work on that this offseason he'll be a good one.
Just getting starts and league average play from a R7 pick is gold in this league. Average starting LTs are generally not cheap.

[call_me_ishmael]

Hahaha.

He’s as good as a rookie as Tramon and jaire were in their maiden voyages is what I’m saying. Not as good as Jaire became.

I meant as a rookie as well. We knew Jaire was gonna be a hoss from day one. I don't think Valentine is that guy. I think it's far more likely that he becomes Gunter than a 5 year solid starter. But we'll see.

[Joemailman]

I meant as a rookie as well. We knew Jaire was gonna be a hoss from day one. I don't think Valentine is that guy. I think it's far more likely that he becomes Gunter than a 5 year solid starter. But we'll see.

Valentine has much better speed than a guy like Gunter. In fact Gunter had one of the worst RAS scores I've ever seen. His length was his only asset. Valentine is a very good press man corner. The knock on him at draft time was that his aggressiveness could make him vulnerable to double moves, and to WR's good at evading press coverage. That's what he'll need to work on.

[Fritz]

Rasheed Walker seems a key to the future. IF he works on his weaknesses this offseason, and can become a better run-blocker and get his footwork in better shape (as run and I think Bobble have pointed out as an issue), they've got a starting left tackle. Whoa. That would change the draft. So no you don't have to focus on one with your first pick. You could wait until the second round and get a more developmental guy, and let him compete with Tom for RT. Then you can wait again until maybe the fourth or something - the fifth, once you trade Bakh to the Jest to get a fifth back (!) - and pick up another one. Then you've got competition and developing guys, and with luck could move Tom to center.

But if the Pack thinks Walker is not that guy, you're looking at going after a LT early early.

I'm not ready to anoint Valentine the next Sam Shields (who was undrafted) or Jaire Alexander, but he's certainly holding his own - and MVS in the KC game there at the end...

[Joemailman]

With the Packers now holding the 20th pick in the draft, a lot of people are looking at Cooper DeJean of Iowa. He's played CB last 2 years at Iowa, but was recruited as a safety and has the build to play there. (6-1, 209). Packers love their Hawkeyes.


Current Draft Projection and Summary

On my board, DeJean grades out as a top-25 prospect in the 2024 NFL Draft who could feasibly challenge for top-15 capital, depending on schematic preference. It remains to be seen whether or not he’ll unseat Kool-Aid McKinstry as CB1, but DeJean is firmly in the Round 1 CB discussion.

DeJean’s traits and style mesh particularly well with zone and off-man schemes. He’s an explosive, gliding athlete at 6’1″, 209 pounds, with stellar space management skills, zone awareness, route IQ, and reaction quickness, and he also has the rapid closing speed to trigger and wash in front of ill-fated throws.

Naturally, with his mass, DeJean doesn’t quite have elite fluidity. He’s fluid enough with exceptional corrective athleticism, but there are times when he struggles to sink on sharper transitions. Nevertheless, DeJean has great discipline and foot speed in press-man, and he can use his length and physicality to dictate releases as well.


The tape evaluation speaks very favorably of DeJean’s diagnostic tools, both physical and mental. And at the end of the day, the production corroborates his talent. He’s a prolific ball hawk with unmatched playmaking statistics and a support defender with all-encompassing range, physicality, and utility.

There’s an outcome where DeJean splits time between the boundary, the slot, and field safety at the NFL level. Ultimately, he’s an extremely role-versatile player based on the game script. Let him manage and play in space, and let him crash downhill and attack blocks. Either way, he’ll produce from whichever alignment he takes on these jobs.

[bobblehead]

Rasheed Walker seems a key to the future. IF he works on his weaknesses this offseason, and can become a better run-blocker and get his footwork in better shape (as run and I think Bobble have pointed out as an issue), they've got a starting left tackle. Whoa. That would change the draft. So no you don't have to focus on one with your first pick. You could wait until the second round and get a more developmental guy, and let him compete with Tom for RT. Then you can wait again until maybe the fourth or something - the fifth, once you trade Bakh to the Jest to get a fifth back (!) - and pick up another one. Then you've got competition and developing guys, and with luck could move Tom to center.

But if the Pack thinks Walker is not that guy, you're looking at going after a LT early early.

I'm not ready to anoint Valentine the next Sam Shields (who was undrafted) or Jaire Alexander, but he's certainly holding his own - and MVS in the KC game there at the end...

Walker has the tools, but even though Stenavich only critiques one of them for it, he has the same problem Yosh does. He occasionally gets lackadaisical and takes a snap off. Thats a drive killer. Its usually in the run game for Walker. Both guys have gotten better by forcing them to play for snaps.

[Sparkey]

Packers draft blueprint led to a historically significant 2023 rookie class (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/packers-draft-blueprint-led-to-a-historically-significant-2023-rookie-class/ar-AA1l9DTT?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=552e5f71e2454fa493a9916394374c95&ei=24)

Really good read.

[Fritz]

i think the guy is blowing smoke on those first few drafts - outside of Alexander, Jenkins, and Gary, what did he bring in with the what, about fourteen draft picks he had in those two drafts? Not much. Though yes, those three were quite good. But the last two drafts certainly seem quite good, and IF Jordan Love ends up being a top-five QB in the league, well, you've got to say Guter has redeemed himself.

[RashanGary]

Damn, Joe, that Dijon guy sounds spicy. Sort of a poor man’s Charles Woodson. If Valentine improves from his shockingly high starting point and Jaire gets healthy, Dijon sounds like the ideal slot piece our secondary needs to take that next leap.

[Fritz]

Guter needs to complete his comeback from turd to superstar GM by finagling a fourth or fifth round pick for Bakh - preferably from the Jest.

[Bretsky]

Damn, Joe, that Dijon guy sounds spicy. Sort of a poor man’s Charles Woodson. If Valentine improves from his shockingly high starting point and Jaire gets healthy, Dijon sounds like the ideal slot piece our secondary needs to take that next leap.


It seems like when I create a spicy thread hammering a Packer my whammy kicks in and they prove me wrong.

I have SERIOUS concerns about Alexander and a ton of concerns he's giving us the Bachtiari treatment

[run pMc]

I think Jaire is a little guy (for a football player) who has a bad shoulder and as he ages the injuries will continue to pile up.
Would be nice if he could suit up, but until it happens I'm skeptical we'll get much from him this year. 2023 has not been a good season for Jaire.

[Fritz]

I don't expect Stokes to be good his first game back, but he really kinda needs to have a good couple of games at the end of the season here. We're almost to the trying-to-salvage-his-career point with him. Now, is that on Guter? Stokes had a very promising rookie season, then regressed. Was he a good pick or a crummy pick or we don't know?

[run pMc]

I don't expect Stokes to be good his first game back, but he really kinda needs to have a good couple of games at the end of the season here. We're almost to the trying-to-salvage-his-career point with him. Now, is that on Guter? Stokes had a very promising rookie season, then regressed. Was he a good pick or a crummy pick or we don't know?

We don't know. He was pretty solid as a rookie, started off year 2 very shaky, got a little better, then had a really bad injury. Injury has carried over to Year 3... so we really haven't seen enough IMO.
he's played ONE snap on ST this year, not good return on a R1 pick... but I'd put that on injury luck, not on Gute. I don't think Stokes had a concerning injury history coming out of college. Also: injuries pretty much end or derail every player's career... and if it ain't injuries, it's age (or suckitude).

[Fritz]

Often, age = suckitude. I predict that for Rodgers next year. It was already happening last year.