Packer Rats Winners and Losers of GB VS NO

[Deputy Nutz]

This will be the last week you are going to be able to read this on the forum, because a little birdy told me that by this time next week the home page will be open and this will be posted on the front page. We will set something up where you will be able to respond and rate the article. I guess for me that means it is going to have to be proof read and corrected for little misspells here and there. Ziggy, get out your red pen!!!

Well at first glance you would like to say that the Packers improved from this week from last week. They actually scored points this week and were competitive through out the whole game. Then you realize that they just played the Saints, a team that was statistically worse than the Packers in 2005. Granted, the Saints actually spent money on a QB in the off-season and improved their receiving corps with getting rid of Stallworth for some magical rookie 7th round draft pick. The bottom line, is that the Packers are not improving as a franchise compared to the rest of the league, at least not by the second week of the season.

Listening to the McCarthy press conference, He claims, and with all honesty that Favre was throwing the ball away on his INT. McCarthy also stated that he called a running play and then switched it to a pass. He admitted that he made a mistake. McCarthy also claimed that the pass protection was decent considering they threw the ball 55 times. McCarthy seemed subdued at the press conference, I understand after his team blew a 13 point lead and failed to capitalize. McCarthy is just over his head at this point, and unlike Mike Holmgren, he doesn't have a young Brett Favre to make out of this world type plays. He has an aging Favre, that now allows the pressure to get to him, and it effects the way he plays. Favre's accuracy seemed to be a big issue in the last two weeks. Accuracy has never been what Favre have been known for. He needs to improve on his accuracy with his supporting cast. Other than Driver he doesn't have a player at this point that can go out and adjust to his overthrown balls.

Give the Saints credit. Like Favre just got done saying, the Saints were down 13 points playing away, and managed to win a second game on the road. The Saints keep getting better. Maybe Shaun Payton might have been the better hire in Green Bay, but hey, he probably wasn't a Packer person.

Now your Winners and Losers

Winners,

1. Donald Driver, He made great catch after great catch and was Favre's only consistent weapon on offense. Driver had 8 catches for 153 yards. and was impressive as usual after the catch. He ran a very nice reverse where he had to beat Mike McKenzie one on one. He toasted McKenzie and turned the run into a first down.

2. Dave Raynor, Raynor was able to make two field goals, his first two of his NFL career, but he was also able to sky the ball deep into the end zone several of time and take away some dangerous returners for the Saints

3. David Martin, Bubba Franks was having issues catching the ball all day, and also blocking for Favre. In stepped David Martin in the 4th quarter to catch several key balls for first downs. Martin had 6 grabs for 44 yards, with most of them coming late in the third quarter and into the 4th quarter.

4. Scott Wells, he has been nothing but consistent, and has been the Packers best overall linemen. This offense is set up perfectly for Wells. He is quick enough to get out in the open and attach himself to linebackers. In fact on running plays he is the only one moving the pile while the rest of the offensive line is running behind the play.

5, Collin Cole, Ryan Pickett, Cullen Jenkins, and Corey Williams, they all did a nice job of clogging up the middle of the line. Jenkins was able to get some pressure on Brees early in the game, but as far as rushing the passer not one of these guys has a gift for it. The fact is if they keep playing the way they are, teams are going to struggle making yards up the middle or anywhere running the ball.

6. Aarron Kampman, Kampman is proving that he is just not a run stopper. He is getting after the QB and then creating turnovers. Kampman is holding up well against the run as usual but he is actually beating KGB to the QB. Unfortunately for the Packers he is the only capable defender when it comes to rushing the quarterback. Kampman had three sacks with two of them causing fumbles.

7. AJ Hawk, This guy is damn near always where he needs to be. He had 7 solo tackles in today's ball game, and one pass defended. When the Packers needed a stop late in the 4th quarter he came through with a beautiful open field tackle of Reggie Bush. Hawk did have one miscue where he got confused on a crossing pattern, but other than that he was perfect in coverage. Hawk has so far been worth the 5th pick in the draft. I wouldn't say that he out played Bush, simply because Bush brings so many different aspects to the New Orleans Saints, he is a pass catcher, a returner, and a running back. AJ simply plays linebacker in an outstanding fashion.

Losers,

1. Chad Clifton, Clifton needed help most of the day with Charles Grant so he had it a bit easier in pass pro than usual. Clifton just simply doesn't fit the zone blocking scheme. Injuries haven't helped, but he is hand fighter and a sealer. He doesn't drive block very well and doesn't get up field like he needs to. The Packers mostly ran up the middle with very few stretch plays that were designed to go wide. Mostly Clifton and Tauscher still look lost in this scheme, and are not showing signs of improving.

2. Ahman Green, Green had two fumbles, one was lost at the most critical time in the game. Right after the Saints went up by a touchdown, Green fumbled as soon as the Packers got the ball Back. I also counted at least 3 drops, and 4 if you include a shaky thrown ball by favre. As well as Green ran last week, he showed the complete opposite this week against a weaker opponent. The first tackler always brought him down, and at times it seemed that Green hesitated when deciding what hole to run through. His 16 carries for 42 yards just ain't gonna cut it.

3. Bubba Franks, He couldn't catch a cold throughout the game. Favre was obviously becoming frustrated with Bubba as well as the coaching staff, because when it came time to move the ball in the 4th quarter Favre went to Martin while Bubba stayed in to block. which brings me to my next point, Bubba allowed Charles Grant to beat him so bad that Favre rolled to his right and Grant was still able to catch Favre for a 12 yard loss. Bubba was whipped like a dog on another passing play as well, and Favre got up and gave Bubba a solid stare down for a good 5 seconds. Brett is supposed to rely on his tight end in this offense and Bubba seems to have lost Favre's trusts.

4. William Henderson. I don't think Hendo expect the ball in the end zone but when it came fluttering his way he could have at least made an attempt at going after it with a little bit of aggression. He let a corner back take the ball away from him. Hendo didn't even bother going up to try and knock it down. I was disappointed in his effort, and the same could be said for Bubba Franks as well on that play, they both decided to watch instead of trying to make a play.

5. Nick Collins, Collins got beat on two deep balls both where he looked confused and totally spun around by the receiver. He simply looked like he was on ice skates trying to do a triple lutes on the field. Collins made some great plays in the running game, but the Packers need him for his coverage skills, and not the skills he showed today.

6. KGB, didn't hear his name called once today. I don't even think he got a single hurry or pressure on Brees and then I was shocked to see that he had a sack of Brees for nine yards. when the heck did that happen? But most of the day Jamal Brown the second year player out of Oklahoma locked on to KGB and made him disappear. I also noticed that the Packer were quite liberal with their substitution of their defensive ends with Michael Montgomery, but mostly he was subbing for Kabeer. I notice on passing downs that Kabeer lines up so far outside that he limits his ability to use more than a speed rush on the offensive tackle. He doesn't have the arm strength to make a hump move to the inside or use a bull rush. He is simply useless at this point of the season.

7. Nick Barnett, he was mostly invisible today and had a career low of 2 solo tackles. He was burnt a number of times on passes across the middle where he was caught looking in the backfield and not getting into his drop. On one play he took a terrible angle on a pass to Reggie Bush in the flat, was flat out ran by the rookie speedster. I guess I don't understand why against the Saints of all teams he decided to lay an egg on defense. Maybe he was to preoccupied with Reggie Bush, but he consistently got lost in the wash. On McCallister's 23 yard touchdown run he allowed the backside guard block him on a play that went to between the tackle and the end on the opposite side, he was slow to read the play and once again should the inability to fight through a block and make the play, instead he got blocked and quit on the play.

8. Ahmad Carroll, I am sick of sticking up for this guy, granted he was having trouble with cramps, but come on, he got burnt for jumping on a move by Devery Henderson and watched him going streaking past him for a touchdown, the sad thing is, is that he had help to the inside. He also extended a drive with a pass interference call, and then on the next play Brees made toast out of Nick Collins. Carroll has all the talent and speed in the world but he is just to immature to listen and absorb the lessons the game of football teaches these young men.

9. Brady Poppinga, He simply can't be counted on in pass coverage, he lacks the instincts and ability to cover tight ends and fullbacks that come out of the back field. He is too slow on play action and misdirection plays. I still don't see much of a difference between him and Ben Taylor so I am not going to be one of the many calling for Poppinga to be replaced. He did have one nice break up late in the game, and boy did I get excited.

Well thats it, the Packers showed some signs of life against a lesser opponent than the one they faced last week, but all and all there were no moral victories in this game, in fact it left a very bitter taste in the mouth of most people considering they blew a 13 point lead.

If you still are looking for a silver lining in this game, remember moral victories are only for those that participate in Special Olympics.

[justanotherpackfan]

6. KGB, didn't hear his name called once today. I don't even think he got a single hurry or pressure on Brees and then I was shocked to see that he had a sack of Brees for nine yards. when the heck did that happen? But most of the day Jamal Brown the second year player out of Oklahoma locked on to KGB and made him disappear. I also noticed that the Packer were quite liberal with their substitution of their defensive ends with Michael Montgomery, but mostly he was subbing for Kabeer. I notice on passing downs that Kabeer lines up so far outside that he limits his ability to use more than a speed rush on the offensive tackle. He doesn't have the arm strength to make a hump move to the inside or use a bull rush. He is simply useless at this point of the season.
He had the sack on the forced fumble from the right side.

[Deputy Nutz]

6. KGB, didn't hear his name called once today. I don't even think he got a single hurry or pressure on Brees and then I was shocked to see that he had a sack of Brees for nine yards. when the heck did that happen? But most of the day Jamal Brown the second year player out of Oklahoma locked on to KGB and made him disappear. I also noticed that the Packer were quite liberal with their substitution of their defensive ends with Michael Montgomery, but mostly he was subbing for Kabeer. I notice on passing downs that Kabeer lines up so far outside that he limits his ability to use more than a speed rush on the offensive tackle. He doesn't have the arm strength to make a hump move to the inside or use a bull rush. He is simply useless at this point of the season.
He had the sack on the forced fumble from the right side.

I am trying to go back and find it, was that where Jenkins got into Brees's face and knocked the ball away and then KGB hit him?

[swede]

Nutz

I had to listen today instead of watch.

What do you make of the final two pass plays?

The announcers made it sound as if Brett and the receivers were out of synch. By now shouldn't the receivers and Brett know the pattern that has been called, or does this sort of thing break down in the hurry-up offense when the receivers are inexperienced?

[Deputy Nutz]

Nutz

I had to listen today instead of watch.

What do you make of the final two pass plays?

The announcers made it sound as if Brett and the receivers were out of synch. By now shouldn't the receivers and Brett know the pattern that has been called, or does this sort of thing break down in the hurry-up offense when the receivers are inexperienced?

McCarthy was asked this question in his press conference and he danced around it. Really I think Favre threw late to Jennings on a skinny post route, or Jennings was late coming out of his break. On Fourth down, Favre seemed to feel some kinda of pressure and just threw one of those damn missle twisters that no one could have caught. I don't know what the hell really happened on that 4th down unless some one wasn't running the route that Favre thought they were running.

[GBRulz]

KGB had a sack....actually i thought he stepped up is game today with some decent pressure

I also thought the special teams improved on their punt coverage.

Al Harris was pretty much playing shut out ball most of the time, including an incredible INT and keeping his feet in bounds....

There are two players who cannot get out town quick enough as far as I'm concerned....that would be Carroll & Ferguson.

I'd really like to see KRob challenge for the #2 WR spot. Sorry guys, I really like Jennings, but I don't think he's #2 material yet. Then again, if it's him or Fergy, I can see why he's #2

[Willard]

Does anybody have a report on Colledge and Moll? I heard Wells had a good game.

[Willard]

6. KGB, didn't hear his name called once today. I don't even think he got a single hurry or pressure on Brees and then I was shocked to see that he had a sack of Brees for nine yards. when the heck did that happen? But most of the day Jamal Brown the second year player out of Oklahoma locked on to KGB and made him disappear. I also noticed that the Packer were quite liberal with their substitution of their defensive ends with Michael Montgomery, but mostly he was subbing for Kabeer. I notice on passing downs that Kabeer lines up so far outside that he limits his ability to use more than a speed rush on the offensive tackle. He doesn't have the arm strength to make a hump move to the inside or use a bull rush. He is simply useless at this point of the season.


Perhaps TT should take a look at Michael Haynes who was waived by the Saints this week to make room for Leach. He is much bigger than KGB, was a 1st rounder for the bears the same year they took Grossman. I say bring him in for a look see.

[Cheesehead Craig]

I really didn't see Barnett burned on too many passes. He did get burned by Bush, but then again 95% of the LB in the league cannot keep up with him in a footrace in the open field. I agree that I didn't hear his name that often and that was the most disappointing part of his game today. I'd call him a quasi-loser in the game. Didn't do enough either way that made a difference.

[Harlan Huckleby]

1. Donald Driver, He made great catch after great catch and was Favre's only consistent weapon on offense.

I think this was one of Driver's finest games. He doesn't have the ability of Sterling Sharpe, but he reminds me of Sterling in that he can make plays under ANY conditions, he's unstoppable.


2. Dave Raynor, Raynor was able to make two field goals, his first two of his NFL career, but he was also able to sky the ball deep into the end zone

I'd take Raynor over Longwell, straight up.


3. David Martin, Bubba Franks was having issues catching the ball all day, and also blocking for Favre. In stepped David Martin in the 4th quarter to

Uhhh, I have been president of the David Martin fanclub for about a year. He's a better player than Bubba, and I'm not just saying that because Bubba had a bad game today. Martin's ability to run counts more than Bubba's (usually) great hands. They both block well.


6. Aarron Kampman, Kampman is proving that he is just not a run stopper. He is getting after the QB and then creating turnovers. Kampman is holding up well against the run as usual but he is actually beating KGB to the QB.

Well, I've had a boner for Kampman for two years. He gets better and better. In fact, I can't think of another player who made such steady improvement in each and every year of his career. Although he is not a big sacker, he has been applying decent pressure, collapsing the pocket, containing the outside, for two years. He's as good as Sean Jones. Worth every penny of his big salary.

[VegasPackFan]

What's good about Kampman is that you can rarely, if ever question the effort the guy puts out. I like that.

[BF4MVP]

Decent list.

I agree with putting Collins on the losers list, however in his defense, he was one of the big reasons why Reggie Bush didn't dominate.

I think Greg Jennings deserves to be on the winners list. He had 6 catches and a TD..

Woodson played well enough to warrant consideration for the winners list.

[rforce]

Kampman is awesome besides Brett, Kampman is my favorite player on this team, Imagine if we had 11 Kampmans on each side of the ball on this team. Guys who aren't superstars but play with heart and smarts game in game out. That's the players I would want on my team.

[RashanGary]

Ryan, the Punter needs to be cut. Seriouslly, every time he kicks it, it's like your just waiting for the other team ot run it back. The guy is crap. Rayner is pretty good though...

Kamp gets the game ball. He is worth eveyr penny.

[RashanGary]

Collins makes the losers list today. He had some bad coverage. He's got to get that fixed.

Like BF4 said above though, he played like an animal in the run game. He's tough as nails. He's got a few big plays in him this year. He looks a little lost in pass coverage though. He needs to get that technique down.

[Tony Oday]

6. KGB, didn't hear his name called once today. I don't even think he got a single hurry or pressure on Brees and then I was shocked to see that he had a sack of Brees for nine yards. when the heck did that happen? But most of the day Jamal Brown the second year player out of Oklahoma locked on to KGB and made him disappear. I also noticed that the Packer were quite liberal with their substitution of their defensive ends with Michael Montgomery, but mostly he was subbing for Kabeer. I notice on passing downs that Kabeer lines up so far outside that he limits his ability to use more than a speed rush on the offensive tackle. He doesn't have the arm strength to make a hump move to the inside or use a bull rush. He is simply useless at this point of the season.

This is just wrong KGB played a solid game today

Winners: Jennings had a decent game and is getting better
2nd Half Woodson he was playing bump and run coverage and excelled doing that
Favre- Proved he can still sling the rock and see the field

Losers:
1st half woodson played off teh line and was regularly burned by quick slants.

Coaching staff: We had this game on the rocks we just need to keep the foot on the Saints Neck but we couldnt. The secondary, which was supposed to be a strength, is not coached up at all. Shot should be drug out in the street and SHOT! he needs to be fired ASAP. He is terrible and it shows when he has our corners who love bump and run playing off and in zones when we are getting beat by short slants.

[woodbuck27]

Nice report Deputy.

Why do I feel so beaten up over 0-2?

OUR "D" made 57 tackles in the game. 4 Sacks and 1 pick and ZERO FF's

Their "D" had 64 Tackles,2 Sacks and 1 pick and ZERO FF's.

Our Team had 2 FUMBLES and lost one.

Their Team had 4 Fumbles and lost two.

Total "O" PACKERS = 403 Yards VS 401 Yards for the SAINTS.

PASSING PACKERS = 340 Yards and 1 pick.

PASSING SAINTS = 357 Yards and 1 pick.

RUSHING PACKERS = 61 Yards (Net)

RUSHING SAINTS = 48 Yards (Net)

KICKING PACKERS = 9 POINTS

KICKING SAINTS = 10 POINTS

PUNTING
.....................NO AVG I20 LG
S. Weatherford 4.. 46.5 0.. 52

PUNTING
...........NO AVG I20 LG
J. Ryan 6.. 47.7 0 ..57

THIS GAME is really close just looking at Stat's so far.


So where do they take over?

KICKOFF RETURNS
..............NO AVG TD LG
A. Stecker 3 19.7 0 22

KICKOFF RETURNS
.................NO .AVG.. TD.... LG
V. Morency ..1.. 28.0.. 0...... 28
K. Robinson 4 18.2..... 0..... 21

We do a little better there!


PUNT RETURNS

..............NO.. AVG.. .TD.. LG
R. Bush... 4.. ..9.0... 0..... 14
L. Moore.. 2... 14.0.. 0 .....25

PUNT RETURNS

...................NO...... AVG ..TD.. LG
C. Woodson..... 3.... 3.3... 0.... 9

We need someone to return punts !

The Saint punt returners Bush and Moore returned 6 punts for 64 Yards and Charles Woodson managed only 10 yards for us on 3 punt returns.I f you double his effort by hypothetically saying Woodson has 36 touchs on punt returns that same avg. would mean 20 yards for us or a Net Difference of 44 yards LESS THAN THE SAINTS.

Ryan averaged 1.2 yards more in his punts so where is the problem .How does OUR ST punt coverage look?

It was obvious to me that once we fell behind that the Game for us was on Brett Favre.

FAVRE to DRIVER no matter how well they do won't cut it in the NFL.

WE need more than DD and FAVRE as weapons or we lose 12 -16 games.

I don't feel that Greg Jennings isn't the #2 WR.

RECEIVING
.......................REC.. YDS.... TD.... LG
D. Driver........ 8 ...153...... 0..... 48
G. Jennings........ 6..... 67... ...1..... 23
A. Green........... .6..... 48...... 0..... 10
D. Martin..... .......6... ..44...... 0..... 11
B. Franks..... ......3 .....18...... 0...... 10
N. Herron........... 1....... 6...... 1...... 6
R. Ferguson.... 1...... 4...... 1...... 4

We need another WR and a TE to make plays.

It's shocking to see from you Deputy that Franks and Henderson gave up on a pass from in close for six and what instead was realized was a pick.What a huge TD that would have been as it turned out.

1. ON "O" we need a WR and a TE that can make plays.

2. We need better ST play in the area's of returning and covering punts.We need a REAL punt returner.Woodson hasn't ever been solid thee in the NFL..take a look.

3. I say bench Ahmad Carroll for a game. That's all he hears, unless M3 does what Mike Sherman did and has a private and short chat in his office. Like a 30 second.. "get your DAM act together NOW " Chat... and " also Ahmad.. next game I'm considering benching YOU - I expect more NOW from you, given your a first round pick and number of games YOU have played as a Packer ".

Time for hardball with Carroll.

4. We have to see Favre tossing the ball out of bounds on NO PLAY THERE situations.Maybe Brett is playing a tad paranoid as OUR Team today is not out in the OPEN at all like the Mike Sherman ERa.

These are my thoughtsafter a heartbreaking loss of a game we needed to win and sholuld have won.

GO PACKERS ! Over ALL you gave us more in week #2.

ONE STEP at a time.

[mmmdk]

Ryan, the Punter needs to be cut. Seriouslly, every time he kicks it, it's like your just waiting for the other team ot run it back.

I don't get it. Ryan punts 6 times for a 47,7 avg. and 41,2 net avg. I think Ryan has to get better with hang time but he's worth keeping - for now - like a lot of other players. I anticipate a roster overhaul, again, after this season. Too much shallow talent and vets that are way over the hill. e.g. KGB, Clifton, Franks, Henderson, Woodson & Green.

[packrulz]

Ryan, the Punter needs to be cut. Seriouslly, every time he kicks it, it's like your just waiting for the other team ot run it back.

I don't get it. Ryan punts 6 times for a 47,7 avg. and 41,2 net avg. I think Ryan has to get better with hang time but he's worth keeping - for now - like a lot of other players. I anticipate a roster overhaul, again, after this season. Too much shallow talent and vets that are way over the hill. e.g. KGB, Clifton, Franks, Henderson, Woodson & Green.

I thought Ryan had some great punts to the corner with good hang time, it's not his fault they return it 25-30 yds every time. The ST coverage sucks.

[swede]

Collins makes the losers list today. He had some bad coverage. He's got to get that fixed.

Like BF4 said above though, he played like an animal in the run game. He's tough as nails. He's got a few big plays in him this year. He looks a little lost in pass coverage though. He needs to get that technique down.

He didn't have that much trouble with coverage last year, did he?

Maybe the scheme and the coach are to blame here, and not the player.

Kurt Schottenheimer makes my losers' list.

[Ballboy]

I think of the KEY Losers is Bob Sanders. Apart from the individual play of a couple players, I felt his game calling was terrible. In the first quarter of the game, the defense was on the field for a LONG time. That tells me that they would get tired....sure enough, in the third and fourth quarters, we could get a consistent pass rush....why not blitz? Sure he did some times, but what really gets me is the 3rd down conversion rate in the second half for the Saints. I recall several time where it was third and long(greater than 6 yards) and the Packers rushed only 4 guys...I don't care who your DB's are, if the other QB has more than 4 seconds to throw the ball, I'll bet you he will complete it. Granted, in the first half we were able to get pressure with our front 4, but as I stated earlier, the D was on the field for a long time. Ever hear of "in game adjustments"? Why can't we send 5-6 guys every time? That still gives us 5-6 players to either play the zone or man-up? Were we playing against Mike Vick?

[Chubbyhubby]

Don't forget #22 Manuel. Put him on the LOSER List. He looked pathetic. He was supposed to be a good FA pick up instead in the last 2 games so far he looks lost, horrible coverage. Don't be suprise that the Packers finish the year at #32 agaist the Pass this year on D.

[RashanGary]

John Ryan might have a good average but he out kicks the coverage and it's his fault that teams keep bringing them back.

Carroll is a stud gunner. He's always there and he's an open field tackling machine. There are other young studs playing on ST's.

When your punter kicks line drives, his average will look good but the resutls will be bad. I would rather have BJ Sanders 41 yard high flyers that don't get returned than Ryan's 50 yard lasers that have already gotten returned for TD's. You can blame the coverage but when you give guys 8 yards of open field to work with because yoru haing time sucks, you have to expect bad things to happen. They did.

If John Ryan doesn't get that fixed he'll be cut. TT can only be so patient.

[Tony Oday]

John Ryan might have a good average but he out kicks the coverage and it's his fault that teams keep bringing them back.

Carroll is a stud gunner. He's always there and he's an open field tackling machine. There are other young studs playing on ST's.

When your punter kicks line drives, his average will look good but the resutls will be bad. I would rather have BJ Sanders 41 yard high flyers that don't get returned than Ryan's 50 yard lasers that have already gotten returned for TD's. You can blame the coverage but when you give guys 8 yards of open field to work with because yoru haing time sucks, you have to expect bad things to happen. They did.

If John Ryan doesn't get that fixed he'll be cut. TT can only be so patient.

Not a chance he will get cut. His punts are good and on the big return Poppigna missed the tackle.

[KYPack]

I think of the KEY Losers is Bob Sanders. Apart from the individual play of a couple players, I felt his game calling was terrible. In the first quarter of the game, the defense was on the field for a LONG time. That tells me that they would get tired....sure enough, in the third and fourth quarters, we could get a consistent pass rush....why not blitz? Sure he did some times, but what really gets me is the 3rd down conversion rate in the second half for the Saints. I recall several time where it was third and long(greater than 6 yards) and the Packers rushed only 4 guys...I don't care who your DB's are, if the other QB has more than 4 seconds to throw the ball, I'll bet you he will complete it. Granted, in the first half we were able to get pressure with our front 4, but as I stated earlier, the D was on the field for a long time. Ever hear of "in game adjustments"? Why can't we send 5-6 guys every time? That still gives us 5-6 players to either play the zone or man-up? Were we playing against Mike Vick?

If your defensive pressure requires consistent blitzing, you are gonna get beat like a drum. When you blitz, you are covering up a weakness. You must have pressure on the QB thru the down 4 with occaisional help from a 5th pass rusher. If you always send 5 and sometimes send 6, you will be gashed far more than you will ever succeed.

A 5 or 6 man zone has such huge holes in it, the pressure will never yield a sack before the offense burns it a big gain.

If blitzing was a magic elixer, all NFL DC's would blitz way more than they do. They don't, 'cause blitzin' gets ya beat.

[Partial]

I think of the KEY Losers is Bob Sanders. Apart from the individual play of a couple players, I felt his game calling was terrible. In the first quarter of the game, the defense was on the field for a LONG time. That tells me that they would get tired....sure enough, in the third and fourth quarters, we could get a consistent pass rush....why not blitz? Sure he did some times, but what really gets me is the 3rd down conversion rate in the second half for the Saints. I recall several time where it was third and long(greater than 6 yards) and the Packers rushed only 4 guys...I don't care who your DB's are, if the other QB has more than 4 seconds to throw the ball, I'll bet you he will complete it. Granted, in the first half we were able to get pressure with our front 4, but as I stated earlier, the D was on the field for a long time. Ever hear of "in game adjustments"? Why can't we send 5-6 guys every time? That still gives us 5-6 players to either play the zone or man-up? Were we playing against Mike Vick?

If your defensive pressure requires consistent blitzing, you are gonna get beat like a drum. When you blitz, you are covering up a weakness. You must have pressure on the QB thru the down 4 with occaisional help from a 5th pass rusher. If you always send 5 and sometimes send 6, you will be gashed far more than you will ever succeed.

A 5 or 6 man zone has such huge holes in it, the pressure will never yield a sack before the offense burns it a big gain.

If blitzing was a magic elixer, all NFL DC's would blitz way more than they do. They don't, 'cause blitzin' gets ya beat.

Tell that to Jim Johnson of the Philadelphia Eagles.

[Fosco33]

I'd say Jennings really stepped up for his second game. He's proven he has 'flashes of greatness' and we've seen areas for improvement.

I'd agree that Carroll and Woodson had subpar games - but I'd also say that the secondary, as a whole, played beneath themselves. Besides a few nice tackles by Manual and a great pick by Harris, what else could we be proud of - getting burned time and again or being way out of position.

Can you blame the players for the 2ndry's inefficiency? In part - yes - but we should be looking at Schottenheimer....

[superfan]

When your punter kicks line drives, his average will look good but the resutls will be bad.

True. But...


I would rather have BJ Sanders 41 yard high flyers that don't get returned than Ryan's 50 yard lasers that have already gotten returned for TD's.

I would rather have that too, but Sander was never able to prove that he was consistently able to hammer 40+ yard punts with hang time and no return. What you say here is precisely why Sherman drafted him -- to give GB a good net average on punts.

Unfortunately, Sander kicked way too many <40 yard punts that were returned, and provided no measure of confidence that he could kick GB out of bad field position.


If John Ryan doesn't get that fixed he'll be cut. TT can only be so patient.

Ryan is very low on TT's current list of problems. I would say that right now Ryan is serviceable -- not great, needs to work on his hang time, but there is some potential for improvement there. I can't think of any available punters I would prefer.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I agree about Ryan. I feel the same way about Rayner. Might as well let them develop on this team.

Rayner had as many touchbacks in this game as Ryan Longwell has had in an entire season since his first year or two in the league. Plus, he had two others that went 2-3 yards deep in the endzone that were returned. He has a big leg.

[mmmdk]

I agree about Ryan. I feel the same way about Rayner. Might as well let them develop on this team.

Rayner had as many touchbacks in this game as Ryan Longwell has had in an entire season since his first year or two in the league. Plus, he had two others that went 2-3 yards deep in the endzone that were returned. He has a big leg.

Yup, quite the surprise that guy Rayner. I think Rayner might struggle with his FGs this season but shoot, that kid has a HUGE LEG! I think we have Neil Rackers type of kicker on our hands. Let him develop. As for P Ryan, well, better hang time & we've got a keeper for ages. Let him play this year and enter next camp with competition - he should be better but it's not a given.

[KYPack]

I think of the KEY Losers is Bob Sanders. Apart from the individual play of a couple players, I felt his game calling was terrible. In the first quarter of the game, the defense was on the field for a LONG time. That tells me that they would get tired....sure enough, in the third and fourth quarters, we could get a consistent pass rush....why not blitz? Sure he did some times, but what really gets me is the 3rd down conversion rate in the second half for the Saints. I recall several time where it was third and long(greater than 6 yards) and the Packers rushed only 4 guys...I don't care who your DB's are, if the other QB has more than 4 seconds to throw the ball, I'll bet you he will complete it. Granted, in the first half we were able to get pressure with our front 4, but as I stated earlier, the D was on the field for a long time. Ever hear of "in game adjustments"? Why can't we send 5-6 guys every time? That still gives us 5-6 players to either play the zone or man-up? Were we playing against Mike Vick?

If your defensive pressure requires consistent blitzing, you are gonna get beat like a drum. When you blitz, you are covering up a weakness. You must have pressure on the QB thru the down 4 with occaisional help from a 5th pass rusher. If you always send 5 and sometimes send 6, you will be gashed far more than you will ever succeed.

A 5 or 6 man zone has such huge holes in it, the pressure will never yield a sack before the offense burns it a big gain.

If blitzing was a magic elixer, all NFL DC's would blitz way more than they do. They don't, 'cause blitzin' gets ya beat.

Tell that to Jim Johnson of the Philadelphia Eagles.

That's with a vet defense that can supply pressure from the down 4. The rest of that "D" is experienced and knows what to do on the blitz. Also, Johnson doesn't blitz as much as you think. I repeat, blitzing isn't the magic wand to supply QB pressure.

Blitzing is a helluva tactic, but it has to be used properly. Lebeau and Jonson both blitz, but not as much as you think.

[Patler]

I agree about Ryan. I feel the same way about Rayner. Might as well let them develop on this team.

Rayner had as many touchbacks in this game as Ryan Longwell has had in an entire season since his first year or two in the league. Plus, he had two others that went 2-3 yards deep in the endzone that were returned. He has a big leg.

Yup, quite the surprise that guy Rayner. I think Rayner might struggle with his FGs this season but shoot, that kid has a HUGE LEG! I think we have Neil Rackers type of kicker on our hands. Let him develop. As for P Ryan, well, better hang time & we've got a keeper for ages. Let him play this year and enter next camp with competition - he should be better but it's not a given.

Rayner does have a good strong leg, but before everyone gets too carried away, just remember that 42 year-old John Carney also had two touchbacks and another to the endzone that was carried out. I also believe that all the kicks to the endzone by both kickers were in the same direction, and that neither reached the endzone in the other direction. I suspect the wind was a factor on Sunday too.

[cpk1994]

I think of the KEY Losers is Bob Sanders. Apart from the individual play of a couple players, I felt his game calling was terrible. In the first quarter of the game, the defense was on the field for a LONG time. That tells me that they would get tired....sure enough, in the third and fourth quarters, we could get a consistent pass rush....why not blitz? Sure he did some times, but what really gets me is the 3rd down conversion rate in the second half for the Saints. I recall several time where it was third and long(greater than 6 yards) and the Packers rushed only 4 guys...I don't care who your DB's are, if the other QB has more than 4 seconds to throw the ball, I'll bet you he will complete it. Granted, in the first half we were able to get pressure with our front 4, but as I stated earlier, the D was on the field for a long time. Ever hear of "in game adjustments"? Why can't we send 5-6 guys every time? That still gives us 5-6 players to either play the zone or man-up? Were we playing against Mike Vick?

If your defensive pressure requires consistent blitzing, you are gonna get beat like a drum. When you blitz, you are covering up a weakness. You must have pressure on the QB thru the down 4 with occaisional help from a 5th pass rusher. If you always send 5 and sometimes send 6, you will be gashed far more than you will ever succeed.

A 5 or 6 man zone has such huge holes in it, the pressure will never yield a sack before the offense burns it a big gain.

If blitzing was a magic elixer, all NFL DC's would blitz way more than they do. They don't, 'cause blitzin' gets ya beat.
How soon people around here forget Bob "Blitz Happy" Slowik around here, huh?

[cpk1994]

I agree about Ryan. I feel the same way about Rayner. Might as well let them develop on this team.

Rayner had as many touchbacks in this game as Ryan Longwell has had in an entire season since his first year or two in the league. Plus, he had two others that went 2-3 yards deep in the endzone that were returned. He has a big leg.

Yup, quite the surprise that guy Rayner. I think Rayner might struggle with his FGs this season but shoot, that kid has a HUGE LEG! I think we have Neil Rackers type of kicker on our hands. Let him develop. As for P Ryan, well, better hang time & we've got a keeper for ages. Let him play this year and enter next camp with competition - he should be better but it's not a given.

Rayner does have a good strong leg, but before everyone gets too carried away, just remember that 42 year-old John Carney also had two touchbacks and another to the endzone that was carried out. I also believe that all the kicks to the endzone by both kickers were in the same direction, and that neither reached the endzone in the other direction. I suspect the wind was a factor on Sunday too.
Well, Ryan Longwell couldn't get to the endzone even with the wind so we are ahead in that area :mrgreen:

[mission]

what is raynor's story? where's he from, how old is he?

could end up ok .. :?:

[Rastak]

I agree about Ryan. I feel the same way about Rayner. Might as well let them develop on this team.

Rayner had as many touchbacks in this game as Ryan Longwell has had in an entire season since his first year or two in the league. Plus, he had two others that went 2-3 yards deep in the endzone that were returned. He has a big leg.

Yup, quite the surprise that guy Rayner. I think Rayner might struggle with his FGs this season but shoot, that kid has a HUGE LEG! I think we have Neil Rackers type of kicker on our hands. Let him develop. As for P Ryan, well, better hang time & we've got a keeper for ages. Let him play this year and enter next camp with competition - he should be better but it's not a given.

Rayner does have a good strong leg, but before everyone gets too carried away, just remember that 42 year-old John Carney also had two touchbacks and another to the endzone that was carried out. I also believe that all the kicks to the endzone by both kickers were in the same direction, and that neither reached the endzone in the other direction. I suspect the wind was a factor on Sunday too.
Well, Ryan Longwell couldn't get to the endzone even with the wind so we are ahead in that area :mrgreen:


Ah, but how many TD's did Rayner throw? :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

[Patler]

I agree about Ryan. I feel the same way about Rayner. Might as well let them develop on this team.

Rayner had as many touchbacks in this game as Ryan Longwell has had in an entire season since his first year or two in the league. Plus, he had two others that went 2-3 yards deep in the endzone that were returned. He has a big leg.

Yup, quite the surprise that guy Rayner. I think Rayner might struggle with his FGs this season but shoot, that kid has a HUGE LEG! I think we have Neil Rackers type of kicker on our hands. Let him develop. As for P Ryan, well, better hang time & we've got a keeper for ages. Let him play this year and enter next camp with competition - he should be better but it's not a given.

Rayner does have a good strong leg, but before everyone gets too carried away, just remember that 42 year-old John Carney also had two touchbacks and another to the endzone that was carried out. I also believe that all the kicks to the endzone by both kickers were in the same direction, and that neither reached the endzone in the other direction. I suspect the wind was a factor on Sunday too.
Well, Ryan Longwell couldn't get to the endzone even with the wind so we are ahead in that area :mrgreen:


Ah, but how many TD's did Rayner throw? :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

For his career, which has been far shorter than Longwell's, he is only one behind Longwell in TD passes! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

[Rastak]

Good point Patler!

[mmmdk]

I agree about Ryan. I feel the same way about Rayner. Might as well let them develop on this team.

Rayner had as many touchbacks in this game as Ryan Longwell has had in an entire season since his first year or two in the league. Plus, he had two others that went 2-3 yards deep in the endzone that were returned. He has a big leg.

Yup, quite the surprise that guy Rayner. I think Rayner might struggle with his FGs this season but shoot, that kid has a HUGE LEG! I think we have Neil Rackers type of kicker on our hands. Let him develop. As for P Ryan, well, better hang time & we've got a keeper for ages. Let him play this year and enter next camp with competition - he should be better but it's not a given.

Rayner does have a good strong leg, but before everyone gets too carried away, just remember that 42 year-old John Carney also had two touchbacks and another to the endzone that was carried out. I also believe that all the kicks to the endzone by both kickers were in the same direction, and that neither reached the endzone in the other direction. I suspect the wind was a factor on Sunday too.
Well, Ryan Longwell couldn't get to the endzone even with the wind so we are ahead in that area :mrgreen:


Ah, but how many TD's did Rayner throw? :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

For his career, which has been far shorter than Longwell's, he is only one behind Longwell in TD passes! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Back to touchback theme. So what you're saying, Patler, is that Longwell never had the wind in his back on kickoffs???

[mmmdk]

Or was it cpk1994 who said it!? :shock:

[MJZiggy]

No, I think he's saying that even with the wind, Longwell didn't kick it into the end zone deep enough to make them think about whether it was wise to run it out.

[Patler]

Back to touchback theme. So what you're saying, Patler, is that Longwell never had the wind in his back on kickoffs???

I don't believe I made any comment in this thread about Longwell, Longwell and touchbacks or Longwell and wind. I did not compare Rayner to Longwell. I did note that both Rayner and Carney reached the endzone multiple times on Sunday, but only when kicking in one direction. Neither one did when kicking in the other direction.

I think it is fairly clear that Rayner consistently kicks a longer ball than Longwell, and so far seems to get enough under it to allow the coverage team to get down field. Average length of the returns is looking good so far, such that the average net distance is very good.

[Patler]

Back to touchback theme. So what you're saying, Patler, is that Longwell never had the wind in his back on kickoffs???

I don't believe I made any comment in this thread about Longwell's kickoffs, Longwell and touchbacks or Longwell and wind. I did not compare Rayner to Longwell. I did note that both Rayner and Carney reached the endzone multiple times on Sunday, but only when kicking in one direction. Neither one did when kicking in the other direction.

I think it is fairly clear that Rayner consistently kicks a longer ball than Longwell, and so far seems to get enough under it to allow the coverage team to get down field. Average length of the returns is looking good so far, such that the average net distance is very good.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Carney had two touchbacks in 7 kicks with one other kick reaching the goalline. On the other four kicks, he got it to the 2, 4, 4, and 10. I think the point about the wind is legit--as I think Carney isn't usually that "long." However, Rayner did outkick him, and I don't think the wind was a huge factor.

Rayner had three touchbacks in 6 kicks with two other kicks going 2 and 3 yards into the endzone. I remember his first kickoff being pathetic. I'll blame it on nerves or something. Pretty impressive.

Longwell had 6 combined touchbacks in the last 3 years. Ironically, he had not had a touchback in 14 games in a Dome since at least 2000 (that's as far back as I could find his game logs). Until this last week that is--when he had one. I didn't see it, so I don't know if it was a boomer or what.