THE DEFENSE

[Bretsky]

Yes, I got blasted by bringing this up last week; but my feelings have not changed.

While they have more talent than the defense last year, this unit still goes through way too much chaos in the game. And that goes back to the coach.

Last week being at the game was frustrating because I witnessed multiple times where defenders were sprinting to the positions they should be at just before the snap. I witnessed chaos of defenders going into the wrong spot or blowing assisgments.

We saw the same thing yesterday. From the McGinn Article, ""

In the first half, the Packers' defense blew two timeouts. In the second half, they had to blow another when coordinator Bob Sanders jumped into a 3-2 alignment for the first time this season only to discover there were 12 men on the field.

Certainly, the defense that did a stellar job preventing big plays under coordinator Jim Bates has taken a turn for the worse under Sanders even though the coverage philosophy and schemes remain almost exactly the same.

Chicago exploited linebacker Brady Poppinga in the opener and the Saints did the same on Joe Horn's 57-yard completion and fullback Corey McIntyre's 10-yard completion on fourth down.

I still recall listening to players interviewed about Fritz Shurmur's practices where he's be going over and over plays the opposition runs and screaming out do it again til they were sick of seeing that play. Heard the same about Bates last year.

While more talented, this defense looks unprepared. And using youth as an excuse is a bit of a crutch; we need to mentally prepare these guys so the blown assignments and chaos go away. To me this goes back to the coach.

[Patler]

But which coach?

The confusion for two games has been in the secondary, and it looks eerily similar to the mass confusion we saw in the secondary for the entire 2004 season. I think Shottenheimer is a disaster.

[Bretsky]

But which coach?

The confusion for two games has been in the secondary, and it looks eerily similar to the mass confusion we saw in the secondary for the entire 2004 season. I think Shottenheimer is a disaster.


That's a valid point; even the confusion that I witnessed was consistently in the secondary. And Schottenheimer was nothing short of a disaster before and after the fact players commented about his lack of teaching and communication (probably not rare to comment like this after a guy leaves).

But the DC also has to take his share of the blame since he's in charge of making sure each unit is ready as well.

[Scott Campbell]

Giving up 34 points after pitching a shut out though the first 1.5 quarters is a pretty good barometer too. Truly awful.

[Patler]

That's a valid point; even the confusion that I witnessed was consistently in the secondary. And Schottenheimer was nothing short of a disaster before and after the fact players commented about his lack of teaching and communication (probably not rare to comment like this after a guy leaves).

But the DC also has to take his share of the blame since he's in charge of making sure each unit is ready as well.

I'm not suggesting The DC is blameless, but I think there is a difference between ultimate responsibilty and cause. Sanders may have ultimate responsibility, but Schottenheimer is the cause. The coordinators are responsible for overall scheme and play calling, but the position coaches are responsible for individual player preparation.

Edgar Bennett received kudos last year (and rightfully so) for the preparation of a seemingly never ending succession of runningbacks new to the roster, as starters and reserves. They knew their reponsibilities and performed inspite of having little preparation time. Rossley didn't accomplish the preparation of the backs, Bennett did.

To me it is too much of a coincidence that confusion in the secondary was not a problem in 2003, was in 2004, was not in 2005 and is again in 2006; and this coincides with the coming and going of Schottenheimer being in charge of the secondary.

[Packnut]

Ah, ya just gotta love a scheme that has a LB singled up on the opponents best WR. Or better yet, they used 2 LB's to cover Bush anytime he slipped out of the backfield up the middle. Our pass D is the worst it's been in a long long time.

[run pMc]

Totally agree. I've never been a fan of K.Schotty...not that I enjoy seeing people get fired, but I wasn't exactly tearful when he was let go the last time. I was stunned to hear he was coming back. I don't think he's got the coaching knack on the pro level.

Given the talent in the secondary, I'm not overly impressed with the results. That's the bottom line. I think there's plenty of blame to go around, but I think time will tell who the main culprits are.

I know it doesn't make sense to keep switching defensive schemes, but I've been wishing for a while that GB would go the copycat route and use Cover 2 & stress fundamentals a la the Bears and Bucs. I think it's an easier scheme to pick up and it limits the big plays. GB has some athletic players on D with very good speed (Barnett, Hawk, Collins, KGB) that might do well in this scheme.

[pittstang5]

I shuttered when I heard the hiring of Schottenheimer for the secondary. I liked most of McCarthy's assistant coaches that he hired (Stock was a surprise), but the Schottenheimer hire was a head scratcher.

[RashanGary]

I've been wondering that as well Bretsky...

It seems Sanders is complicating the defense a little. Collins has been playing closer to the line of scrimmage than I remember him being last year. He did a good job preventing deep stuff last year and now that is where we are being beat.

I prefer the bend but don't break attitude but then have defenders who can force turnovers. If you just stop them from getting the big play and contain everything, you'll eventually force a TO if you have the defenders to do it. Bates didn't last year. Sanders might this year, but he seems to have forgotten that stopping the big play is the most important thing and just letting guys play is what makes defenses aggressive and tough.

I really hope he's not making things complicated. I really hope this is just a couple rough outings.

I don't knwo though. This defense might have regressed and teh coach could be the biggest reason for that.

[oregonpackfan]

The defense would not be having these problems if Jim Bates was either the DC or HC.

OPF

[jack's smirking revenge]

Schittenheimer has to go. With all of the talent in our secondary, things should be less chaotic.

tyler

[wist43]

I agree about Schottenheimer... you really have to question the quality of this defensive coaching staff.

From the mid-2nd quarter on there was a break down on some level on just about every play. The blown coverages are bad enough, but what is really depressing is the overall poor technique and loose coverage demonstated on just about every snap. Nobody played well - Harris, Woodson, Collins, and Carroll all played very poorly. That has to be the fault of Sanders and Schottenheimer.

This defense is in big trouble.

[HarveyWallbangers]

That's my biggest criticism of McCarthy. I don't know why this guy was re-hired here. If it continues, McCarthy better have the 'nads to can this guy this offseason.

[Patler]

I agree about Schottenheimer... you really have to question the quality of this defensive coaching staff.


I wouldn't even question the entire staff, just parts of it.

1. The D-line seems to be playing up to their abilities, and when taken lightly individuals have excelled (for example Kampman against a TE in pass rush) KGB is playing the run better. The tackles make occassional plays, and for the most past haven't been victimized. All you can ask is that the coaches get the best that a player has to offer, and I think that has happened in the D-line. You can't expect them to make stars out of players without star potential.

2. LBers - hard to tell, as the group has been totally revamped. Hawk seems to be coming along quite nicely and shows occassional flashes of what might come in the future. Playing linebacker appears very natural to him. I thought Barnett played very well last week, and was quiet this week. A mistake or two, but no one is perfect Poppinga is a major project; however, in fairness he looked better this week than last week. It will take several weeks more, in all likelihood, to see if he can be a player or not.

3. That leaves only the secondary. Does anyone think these players are playing up to their potential? Any of them? There has been confusion and disarray. Collins (and perhaps Carroll, too) appears to have regressed. Manual is not fitting in smoothly. These are not players like Poppinga, very inexperienced and still learning. Collins should be taking a step forward. The others (Manual, Harris, Woodson, Carroll) should already be there. Yet this is where the mistakes are coming from most often.

As a coordinator, Sanders is still learning. He'll make mistakes.

[Joemailman]

What made yesterday so frustrating was that there wew a lot of great performances on defense. However, breakdowms by Carroll, Collins and Poppinga were huge. The case of Poppinga may just be a matter of going through growing pains with an inexperienced player. However, the breakdowns and blown assignments in the secondary did not happen under Bates, and are very reminiscent of Slowik/Schottenheimer.

When McCarthy hired Winston Moss, Moss wanted to get an interview for the DC position, but was denied the opportunity. If the defense does not show marked improvement, Moss may get his opportunity next year.

[Kiwon]

That's my biggest criticism of McCarthy. I don't know why this guy was re-hired here. If it continues, McCarthy better have the 'nads to can this guy this offseason.

Agreed on both points - the hiring of Schottenheimer and the moral integrity of MM's gonads.

[wist43]

I agree about Schottenheimer... you really have to question the quality of this defensive coaching staff.


I wouldn't even question the entire staff, just parts of it.

1. The D-line seems to be playing up to their abilities, and when taken lightly individuals have excelled (for example Kampman against a TE in pass rush) KGB is playing the run better. The tackles make occassional plays, and for the most past haven't been victimized. All you can ask is that the coaches get the best that a player has to offer, and I think that has happened in the D-line. You can't expect them to make stars out of players without star potential.

2. LBers - hard to tell, as the group has been totally revamped. Hawk seems to be coming along quite nicely and shows occassional flashes of what might come in the future. Playing linebacker appears very natural to him. I thought Barnett played very well last week, and was quiet this week. A mistake or two, but no one is perfect Poppinga is a major project; however, in fairness he looked better this week than last week. It will take several weeks more, in all likelihood, to see if he can be a player or not.

3. That leaves only the secondary. Does anyone think these players are playing up to their potential? Any of them? There has been confusion and disarray. Collins (and perhaps Carroll, too) appears to have regressed. Manual is not fitting in smoothly. These are not players like Poppinga, very inexperienced and still learning. Collins should be taking a step forward. The others (Manual, Harris, Woodson, Carroll) should already be there. Yet this is where the mistakes are coming from most often.

As a coordinator, Sanders is still learning. He'll make mistakes.

I agree with just about everything there, Patler...

The DL is playing well enough to win... Hawk played very well yesterday - much better than Barnett, and Poppinga was better in coverage - was exposed a couple of times. You guys know where I stand on Barnett... he was definitely a liability yesterday.

The secondary??? Wow, were they bad... Schottenheimer has to go. We're going to be seeing this all season though, b/c there's no way they'll get rid of him.

[Patler]

The secondary??? Wow, were they bad... Schottenheimer has to go. We're going to be seeing this all season though, b/c there's no way they'll get rid of him.

That is the really sad part. Unless they have gone down hill significantly, Harris and Woodson should be the heart and soul of the pass defense. They should take the two WRs right ot of the game, as Harris did the first 12 games last year. Collins should be stepping up and making plays of significance in pass defense, knocking balls down, intercepting passes, dislodging balls from receivers. He had the one nice tip on Harris' interception, but not another one comes to mind. Manual was brought in to be the "brains" in the backfield, bringing it all together. Carroll should be a very competant 3rd corner.

My only guess is that Schottenheimer does not encourage an aggressive style in the DBs, and the four starters should be aggressive style players.

[bbbffl66]

We had a defense?

[jack's smirking revenge]

We had a defense?

Once upon a time. I think the majority of it was sold when the Packers were selling off chunks of Lambeau turf.

tyler

[LaFours]

We had a defense?

My take was not that we "had a defense," but rather that we "had a defensive coordinator" that was able to get maximum effort from average talent. Bates' ability to get his players to play beyond their potential was, in my mind, the reason our defense played competently last year. Not only was he able to get a high level of output, but he was able to coordinate that output in a way that allowed the position groups to compliment one another very favorably. We lost that chemistry with the departure of Bates. Now all we have is average talent (with intermittent "above average" talent mixed in) and questionable coordination.