Why all the "LOVE"?

[Deputy Nutz]

Lafleur just can't spread enough love on Love. expressed all his love on Love in the post game presser. I don't blame him, but I would also like to see a coach state the absolute facts about his QB's play in 2024. It wasn't near good enough for the Packers to actually contend for a championship.

Yes, injuries, rise above them, the previous two QB1's played exceptionally well through injuries. The rest of the QBs in the league play through injuries. I am sure he is going to get his knee cleaned up in the off season, and Love never made excuses about his injuries impacting his play.

Lack of a true #1 receiver, I see the frustration with Doubs not showing up to practices, having extremely weak neck muscles that he can't brace his head when fall to the ground. His neck is like a limp noodle as his head just slams to the ground each time he goes airborne. Also the biggest frustration and concern is Watson. He is one of the best deep threats in the league, but his constant leg injuries are probably going to cut his career short with Green Bay as his health has consistently hampered his ability to become that #1 receiver. Regardless the receiver room is talented not top heavy but with the two tight ends there are open receivers on just about every pass play, the concern for me is that Love is struggling with his reads and downfield vision.

See I heard this the other week, really good QB's have their primary focus downfield, while their secondary focus is on the defenders trying to sack them. Think of your secondary focus as instinct, that timer in the back of your head. It's more feel than recognition. Love really struggles with dividing his attention between the pass rush and what is going on in the secondary, when he scrambles out of the pocket he lacks vision, gets target lock on the first green jersey he sees, and he truly lacks accuracy throwing on the run. Favre was better than Rodgers at plays that broke the pocket because of his weird 6th sense, and his gifts of improvisation, but Rodgers was also excellent because he seemed to keep his eyes downfield and could leverage defenders with his legs. Both Favre and Rodgers had the arm strength and the accuracy to make any throw on the run without having to properly set their feet. Packer fans were truly spoiled watching these two maneuver the pocket and make plays when things broke down. Not sure if this is something where Love can get exponentially better at.

Love has an NFL average arm. I am talking strength and accuracy. His accuracy really struggles when he can't rely on rhythm throws. balls sail on him all the time. He needs his footwork to be spot on for him to constantly make completions. Again Packer fans have been spoiled, Favre and Rodgers had ridiculously strong arms and could make throws from any angle with their feet in any position, but Love isn't even in the same atmosphere as those guys.

He let the interceptions bother him earlier in the year, and became tentative. His interceptions were bad, they weren't good throws or good decisions. A lot of the really bad ones to me were out of desperation and panic. It wasn't because he was trying to sling a fastball over the middle between two defenders. His interceptions were not aggressive mistakes, they were bad throws and bad decisions. Fine don't do that anymore, but you still have to be aggressive throwing the ball down field, you can't be tentative with those throws, slow lobs over the middle are bad for business, constant check downs are bad for business.

Overall I didn't see a lot of confidence showing through in his play this year. I think he is talented but he doesn't hold a candle to the guys ahead of him, and that is alright, not many do. I am just not sure he has the overall ability to carry this team to a Super Bowl. There are going to have be a lot of pieces put around him. He isn't going any where with that contract, so the Packers need to insulate him as much as possible.

[MadtownPacker]

Awesome write up Nutz. It all rings true to me other than saying his arm is average. He has a strong arm. He is just not accurate. My worry is becoming that he has an average brain.

[Sparkey]

Would we talk about accuracy if instead of his receivers having 33 drops this year they were more like the Rams and only had 15 ?

That would raise his completion percentage from 63.1% to 67.3%

Not arguing that Love doesn't need to be better. He does. His ball placement on deep throws is iffy. For example, the pick against the Eagles probably wouldn't happen if the throw was outside the receiver towards the sideline.

Doubs, Reed and Wicks were near the top of the league in drops, both actual and as a percentage of attempted catches. How much of that plays into Love's being tentative with throws ?

[call_me_ishmael]

How many of those drops are because he's not throwing a catchable ball though? I bet at least some.

[oldbutnotdeadyet]

Awesome write up Nutz. It all rings true to me other than saying his arm is average. He has a strong arm. He is just not accurate. My worry is becoming that he has an average brain.

Yup, would explain a lot of things.

[Deputy Nutz]

Awesome write up Nutz. It all rings true to me other than saying his arm is average. He has a strong arm. He is just not accurate. My worry is becoming that he has an average brain.

His arm is pretty average when he can't set his feet and step into the throw

[Anti-Polar Bear]

S’up, Nutz. Still listening to Coldplay and showing “Radio” to your players?

This awesome Coldplay song fits in perfectly with this thread:

We've been through low
Been through sunshine, been through snow
All the colors of the weather
We've been through high
Every corner of the sky
And still we're holding on together


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfawgZ5bfBQ

[King Friday]

His arm is pretty average when he can't set his feet and step into the throw

So that has nothing to do with his arm and everything to do with his mechanics.

The fact is that he has one of the 3 strongest arms in the NFL. It isn’t debatable.

[Sparkey]

Dan Orlovsky thinks otherwise. Which means it is debatable.

Arm strength
1. Patrick Mahomes, Chiefs
2. Josh Allen, Bills
3. Justin Herbert, Chargers
4. Matthew Stafford, Rams
5. Aaron Rodgers, Jets
6. Will Levis, Titans
7. Baker Mayfield, Buccaneers
8. Anthony Richardson, Colts
9. Dak Prescott, Cowboys
10. Lamar Jackson, Ravens

[George Cumby]

Supposedly that rocket of a TD pass to Kraft, vs. Saints?, was the fastest thrown ball in history.

Take that with a grain of salt.

I don't know if 'arm strength' is the core issue.

He's crazy accurate at times and then he's not. That inconsistency suggests weakness in preparation or a lack of focus/mental toughness.

[MadtownPacker]

His arm is pretty average when he can't set his feet and step into the throwDude he can sling it. If anything he needs to ease up and have some touch at times. Sadly, I think it’s just that he sucks.

[MadtownPacker]

Supposedly that rocket of a TD pass to Kraft, vs. Saints?, was the fastest thrown ball in history.

Take that with a grain of salt.

I don't know if 'arm strength' is the core issue.

He's crazy accurate at times and then he's not. That inconsistency suggests weakness in preparation or a lack of focus/mental toughness.
He has been so bad this season I can’t even remember last season‘s accuracy. He definitely is acting like someone who got the big payola and didn’t work harder.

[King Friday]

Dan Orlovsky thinks otherwise. Which means it is debatable.

Arm strength
1. Patrick Mahomes, Chiefs
2. Josh Allen, Bills
3. Justin Herbert, Chargers
4. Matthew Stafford, Rams
5. Aaron Rodgers, Jets
6. Will Levis, Titans
7. Baker Mayfield, Buccaneers
8. Anthony Richardson, Colts
9. Dak Prescott, Cowboys
10. Lamar Jackson, Ravens

When has Dan Orlovsky ever been right about something? I’m also not taking QB arm strength rankings from a noodle arm like him. It takes one to know one.

[texaspackerbacker]

I also think that his brain or at least mindset is the primary problem. Unlike Rodgers, Love throws it into a crowd way too often anytime other than maybe a hail mary is too often. Combine that mindset with at least occasional lack of accuracy, and it's a problem. You could say he was lucky not to have more interceptions than he did.

The Packers beat up on the weaker teams and lost to most of the near peer teams. Love's quality of play paralleled that. If teams can win with mediocrity like Cousins, Mayfield, etc., then the Packers can certainly win with Love, but he's gonna have a tough time if he needs to carry the team, as he generally had to against the better teams.

[KYPack]

He has been so bad this season I can’t even remember last season‘s accuracy. He definitely is acting like someone who got the big payola and didn’t work harder.

Actually the boy was off the chain in the second half of the season last year. I posted about this, called the post, A tale of two seasons. Which is what he had. He was solid after the Steeler game last year and showed a ton resolve in doing so.

This year? Whew boy!. So so performer for the reasons detailed by the posters. Much of his problems boiled down to big time accuracy issues. Our previous franchise QB's always bounced back from injuries. The gunslinger and ARod always showed their resolve and dedication to play hurt. With Love so far injuries not only bother him, they seem to linger longer than you'd think they should.

By the way, great to see the Deputy posting. Always welcome your expertise, Nutroll.

[Deputy Nutz]

Love regressed in 2024. I mean it happens, it wasn't terrible regression but 63% completion percentage would have been decent in 1993. I assume because of his injuries he didn't run as often as he did in 2023 as he never ran for more than 14 yards in game. He was sacked less in 2024 than in 2023. he was sacked 30 times in 2023 versus just 14 times in 2024. Yes he played in 2.5 less games but still an improvement for him and the offensive line. Teams blitzed him 75% less in 2024 than in 2023 but his pressure rate went up from 18% in 2023 to 22% in 2024. He was hit 42 times in 2023 compared to 49 times in 2024.

[call_me_ishmael]

Love regressed in 2024. I mean it happens, it wasn't terrible regression but 63% completion percentage would have been decent in 1993. I assume because of his injuries he didn't run as often as he did in 2023 as he never ran for more than 14 yards in game. He was sacked less in 2024 than in 2023. he was sacked 30 times in 2023 versus just 14 times in 2024. Yes he played in 2.5 less games but still an improvement for him and the offensive line. Teams blitzed him 75% less in 2024 than in 2023 but his pressure rate went up from 18% in 2023 to 22% in 2024. He was hit 42 times in 2023 compared to 49 times in 2024.

The blitz change is interesting. Kinda makes me wonder if teams think he is impatient and will throw one up if they sit and wait.

[sharpe1027]

If you can get pressure with 4, why blitz?

[KYPack]

In a move which might mean nothing or be the 1st shoe falling, Tom Clements has been saying he's done after this season. Is Lafluer looking to clean house, or what?

I'd like to see a change at Teams coach, Bissachia has been an improvement, but not that vast an improvement.

[Joemailman]

In a move which might mean nothing or be the 1st shoe falling, Tom Clements has been saying he's done after this season. Is Lafluer looking to clean house, or what?

I'd like to see a change at Teams coach, Bissachia has been an improvement, but not that vast an improvement.

I'm a Clements fan, but I think it's time. I would expect Sean Mannion, who is on the team with the title Offensive Assistant to be the heir apparent. Wouldn't be surprised to see a change at WR coach either.

[Freak Out]

ST coach needs to take his salary elsewhere.

[mgordo]

Supposedly that rocket of a TD pass to Kraft, vs. Saints?, was the fastest thrown ball in history.

Take that with a grain of salt.

I don't know if 'arm strength' is the core issue.

He's crazy accurate at times and then he's not. That inconsistency suggests weakness in preparation or a lack of focus/mental toughness.

I think it's this. His lack of focus and ability to read the whole field when the pocket breaks down is an issue, then the accuracy is lacking. Or it just plain football IQ that he lacks for the QB position? Love had a 27 on the Wonderlic, which is above the league average. Its no 35, AR, but its not terrible. It's also not 9 like Quay Walker, which explains a lot for a LB with all the measurables except the smarts for the position.

[King Friday]

Clements is 71. This is likely a planned retirement.

[sharpe1027]

I can't quite square him being incapable of seeing the field and making the right reads when he seemed to have put it together for so many games at the end of last year.

I can't explain why he struggled compared to last year, but hopefully it gets fixed.

[run pMc]

I think his arm strength is fine. It's good enough to make all the throws he needs to.
I have said since last year that his accuracy and ball placement wasn't where I wished it was, and I was hoping this past offseason his mechanics would improve and thus improve his accuracy. I saw a lot of throwing off the back foot - I think he learned this from Rodgers and it's ingrained, as well as a way to get a throw off in the face of a pass rush.

I think he's an above average QB, I'm not sure he's elite. He's kind of a Donovan McNabb level QB where he'll win you games but he's not a Favre or Rodgers. The other thing to consider is he's played two seasons in addition to redshirting a few so he's got experience.
This offseason I'm hoping that he gets healthy, improves his mechanics, and learns from his experience.

And the WRs need to do better. (so does MLF)

I think his processing is fine - even in college he showed he could read progressions and that's true in the pros. He has decent poise and pocket sense. He'll take risks (pre-bye) but I think his mental makeup is good enough.

[Sparkey]

Nuance...

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2025/01/14/matt-lafleur-helps-explain-jordan-loves-three-interceptions-in-playoff-loss-to-eagles/

[MadScientist]

So, Love and the receivers share fault on the first 2, and the third was DPI. We need receivers to do the right thing and they aren't. The new receivers coach needs to go.

[Deputy Nutz]

Maybe the receivers are just average? Outside of Watson and Reed, who jumps out as special? I think the coaching staff has gotten a lot of a very average group of receivers by NFL standards. I know this thread is about Love, but his receivers certainly didn't help him out with a league high in drops.

[MadScientist]

The all of the receivers regressed this year. That says the coaching was piss poor. If Love can't trust his receivers to do what they are supposed to do, that will screw up the entire offense.

[Deputy Nutz]

I am just not sure blaming coaches is the right idea. Drops have very little to do with coaching and if you say, "well the coaches need to do more catching drills." You are ignorant of your understanding of professional football.

[Joemailman]

The all of the receivers regressed this year. That says the coaching was piss poor. If Love can't trust his receivers to do what they are supposed to do, that will screw up the entire offense.

Yep. This was Ryan Mahaffey's 1st year as WR coach. He was the asst. OL coach before that. I wouldn't put down too many roots in Green Bay if I were him.

[Joemailman]

I am just not sure blaming coaches is the right idea. Drops have very little to do with coaching and if you say, "well the coaches need to do more catching drills." You are ignorant of your understanding of professional football.

It wasn't just drops. On one of INT's Sunday, MLF said the route should have been run 5 yards deeper. (This does not totally absolve Love). But when an entire position group seems to digress, you have to at least look at the coaching.

[Deputy Nutz]

Kraft had the best season of improvement as a receiver, he basically almost matched the production of him and Musgrave in 2023.

Reed had 9 less catches in 2024, but he also had 18 less targets. his catch % went up, and his success rate also went up. He caught 2 less TDs in 2024
Watson played in 6 more games and caught 1 more ball in 2024, but had 200 more yards receiving, but 3 less TDS.
Wicks caught the same number of balls this year for 150 less yards and was targeted almost 20 times more in 2024, his catch % went down from 67% to 51%.
Melton also had a regression this year considering he was active the entire season, and he wasn't active for the last 5 games. His catches were cut in half in 2024.
Doubs played in 4 less games, he had 70 less yards, 4 less touchdowns, and 13 less catches. His catch % was better, along with his success rate in 2024
Malik Heath caught 5 less balls in 2024, but also had only 13 targets in 2024. His success rate was 69% in 2024 and he caught 2 TDs.

This is a ridiculously young room so you are going to have to regression. Everyone on this forum wanted Adams gone after his 2nd year because he had a slim regression. I think Reed has the ability to be the #1 guy as he has been for the past two years. The Packers need to target him more often if he is consistently getting open and on contested catches he has to hang on to the ball.

[MadScientist]

I was not counting Kraft as TEs have a different position coach than WRs.

[George Cumby]

Kraft had the best season of improvement as a receiver, he basically almost matched the production of him and Musgrave in 2023.

Reed had 9 less catches in 2024, but he also had 18 less targets. his catch % went up, and his success rate also went up. He caught 2 less TDs in 2024
Watson played in 6 more games and caught 1 more ball in 2024, but had 200 more yards receiving, but 3 less TDS.
Wicks caught the same number of balls this year for 150 less yards and was targeted almost 20 times more in 2024, his catch % went down from 67% to 51%.
Melton also had a regression this year considering he was active the entire season, and he wasn't active for the last 5 games. His catches were cut in half in 2024.
Doubs played in 4 less games, he had 70 less yards, 4 less touchdowns, and 13 less catches. His catch % was better, along with his success rate in 2024
Malik Heath caught 5 less balls in 2024, but also had only 13 targets in 2024. His success rate was 69% in 2024 and he caught 2 TDs.

This is a ridiculously young room so you are going to have to regression. Everyone on this forum wanted Adams gone after his 2nd year because he had a slim regression. I think Reed has the ability to be the #1 guy as he has been for the past two years. The Packers need to target him more often if he is consistently getting open and on contested catches he has to hang on to the ball.

Reed's numbers this year compare very favorably to Adams' second year numbers. Reed's gonna' ball next year.

Also, I remember both Mad and I telling people to chill out about Adams.

[Bretsky]

Kraft has really improved, but I don't buy Reed improved one bit. He simply wasn't getting open much this year. I am find dumping the WR coach as well as our fake OC, whatever the heck his role is. He was a great OL coach and that is probably where he belongs

[King Friday]

I am just not sure blaming coaches is the right idea. Drops have very little to do with coaching and if you say, "well the coaches need to do more catching drills." You are ignorant of your understanding of professional football.

I think it is pretty clear from the play on the field that the coaches damn well need to do a lot more. The naivety to think that only the players are responsible for improvement is laughable.

[Bretsky]

It is both/ And don't forget about Gutebag as well

[Joemailman]

Reed's numbers this year compare very favorably to Adams' second year numbers. Reed's gonna' ball next year.

Also, I remember both Mad and I telling people to chill out about Adams.

Reed may be fine, but the comparison to Adams' 2nd year isn't very apt. Adams was hurt week 3, missed the next 3 weeks and was never really 100%. Reed played in all games, but had 8 games with fewer than 30 receiving yards. Needs to be more consistent if he's going to be #1.

[King Friday]

Reed will never become anything close to Adams. Simply using numbers to compare then misses the physicality and size Adams brought to the field, which Reed will never have.

[George Cumby]

Reed may be fine, but the comparison to Adams' 2nd year isn't very apt. Adams was hurt week 3, missed the next 3 weeks and was never really 100%. Reed played in all games, but had 8 games with fewer than 30 receiving yards. Needs to be more consistent if he's going to be #1.

Fair points.

[Bretsky]

Reed will never become anything close to Adams. Simply using numbers to compare then misses the physicality and size Adams brought to the field, which Reed will never have.


I thought maybe Reed would become Greg Jennings. I don't anymore

[Fritz]

It is both/ And don't forget about Gutebag as well

It's all kinda hard to figure out. Last year, most of us - and apparantly MLF - saw the defense as the primary culprit. So out goes Joe Barely, and in comes Halfley. Guter remakes the safety position. I would say that most of us think the defense was pretty well improved, despite issues with a lack of pass rush. But all in all, the defense was not the problem.

Then there was the kicking problem. And after flailing about at the beginning of the year, they found their McAnus. Problem solved. Way better than last year. The rest of ST was meh, like the year before. And Whelan had a very good season this year, improving on last year.

So that leaves the offense. We worried that Aaron Jones's departure would really hurt, but Jacobs was probably their best offensive player this year. So it's not the running back. The offensive line seemed okay - not great, but not a dumpster fire. About like last year, I'd say. Maybe even a bit better.

So now we're down to pass-catchers and the QB. By the end of last year, we loved the WR room. Now we're down on them - the drops, specifically. And Watson and Doubs's injury problems. Yet on the whole, that same group performed pretty well at the end of last season. Not sure what happened there, exactly. Tucker Kraft improved this year - but Musgrave, even after recovering from (another) injury, was invisible.

And that leaves Love. Whom we also all thought ended last season playing really well (well, maybe not Skin). But he ended the season badly, like a skid on your favorite underwear.

We thought, mostly, that after last season he was "The Guy." He clearly seemed to be capable. But he started this year and ended this year looking meh.

Given how much better the defense (and the kicker) were this year than last, the failure has to go to the WR's and the QB, and the guy who calls the plays and coaches the team.

[Deputy Nutz]

Holy Shit, the team went 11-6. If they beat the Bears in a meaningless week 18 game I think all of your perspectives might be a little different. They simply do not have the roster of the Eagles. Gute has not had the home run first round picks that he has needed to make dramatic improvements to this roster. He has some nice players, and some misses in the first round that you can't exactly have and then not solidify your roster with free agents and trades. This was the first year Gute recognized his mistakes and fixed them, although it was at the kicker position, but he did what he had to do when he signed McManus. He is going to have to do more of that at defensive end, and possibly at Corner and the offensive line. He may trade for a receiver but there isn't a lot out there that is hitting free agency that I like.

Van Ness was a project, hell he never started a game in college, I don't think you can pick him with the 13th pick in the draft if the first place. You need a day 1 starter or at least an impact contributor. Stokes got banged up and it was a real setback for him and the franchise for multiple years. I don't have a problem with the Stokes pick, you can't predict those kinds of injuries. Walker was a reach with the 22nd pick, he was never a full time starter at Georgia as they usually played multiple linebackers. Nkobe Dean was the more impactful college player for the Bulldogs that year. He didn't have the size/athleticism ratio that Walker has, but he is a much more instinctive and knowledgeable football player that went much later in the 2022 draft. Devonte Wyatt again was not the best Georgia Defensive lineman in the 2022 draft, but it was a need position at the time for the Packers. Wyatt isn't as powerful up front as you want in a defensive tackle, but he has shown some quickness and pass rush with 12 sacks in 3 years. I would like him to stay healthy because i think it dramatically impacts his play. I still think we need much more for him to make the 2022 draft a success considering there were two first round picks in that draft. As for the 2024 draft, Morgan has been a non factor for the majority of the season, he has been injured but he was injured in college as well.

Overall the 2021 draft turned out pretty poor for the Packers. Stokes - Injured, Josh Myers - consistently average, Amari Rogers - Cut after 1 season, Royce Newman - Backup, Shemar-Jean Charles - Cut???, Cole Van Lannen - Cut after year 1, Isaiah McDuffie - Still on the team, Kyllin Hill - Cut. That draft kills you in 2024. Yes Stokes, Myers, and McDuffie were all starters but not because the Packers really wanted to start them.

So the Packers haven't had a first round pick make an All-Pro or even a Pro Bowl team since 2019 draft of Rashan Gary (Pro Bowl 2024). Jaire in 2018 was the right pick, again injuries are a thing in this game, but he was the real deal for several years.

Overall coaches are responsible, I get it. I don't think the Packers staff deserves the emotional beating you are all giving them considering the age of their roster, and how that roster has been pieced together. No kidding Reed and Watson are the most dynamic receivers because they were drafted way ahead of the other guys in the room. Reed has played two season, his production for a second round pick is more than satisfactory. Watson can't stay healthy which is unfortunate because they were both really good picks in the second round. Doubs was a 4th rounder in 2022 you are getting way more out of him than expected. When you show me a Receiver room with multiple day 1 or day 2 picks plus free agent additions then we can really break down the coaching as of right now you really don't know what you have with this group.

Part of the reason it is so hard for me to give a shit about this team and contribute around here, is the only thing you all want to do is bitch and complain because the Packers don't win the Super Bowl every year. You have no idea how to build a franchise or what it takes, but you all can demand coaches lose their jobs because there was a slight regression in the receivers room.

[Deputy Nutz]

The issue with Love, is you can take the bumps in the road and when it seems more than just bumps it doesn't matter the Packers went and made him the highest paid QB after one season as the starter. There ain't many options but to sink or swim with Love at QB.

[MadtownPacker]

I think that contract is cause for so much of the pessimism. Stuck with him and now it is looking like your little boyfriend was right about Love after all.

[Deputy Nutz]

He is a always right

[MadtownPacker]

He is a always right
Calm down he isn’t your wife. At least not outside of prison. But sadly yes everything he said about Love as a QB has played out this season.

[RandsRevenge]

If you add up Love getting hurt multiple times, same for Watson, Musgrave, Doubs throwing temper tantrum, etc. that's enough to maybe expect a lack of progress in the passing game. Still, the numbers aren't terrible; you just didn't have a cohesive move forward. And you lost your best lineman right at the moment you needed him most. I know I'll get the excuse-making label, but I really don't care. This stuff happens and there's no magic to fix it. Favre couldn't turn Andrae Thurman into a starting WR, and Love can't do the same for Heath. Even in his top years, Favre needed a Wolf to field a #1 defense and his GM to go and get a WR during the season to overcome injuries and win a championship. Gute knows now that he needs to do the same.

[George Cumby]

I'm not convinced all of the injuries didn't take a toll on Love.

Hopefully he can get a little bigger and stronger over the off-season and return to his second half of '23 form.

[sharpe1027]

Calm down he isn’t your wife. At least not outside of prison. But sadly yes everything he said about Love as a QB has played out this season.

Clifford is much better than Love?

[MadtownPacker]

Clifford is much better than Love?I said what he said about Love meaning how he would regress. What’s Clifford gotta do wit it, do wit it?

[run pMc]

Improve the accuracy of the QB via fundamentals
Improve the ability of the WRs to beat man coverage
Improve the hands of the WRs by chaining them to the Juggs machine

Drops hurt this team, not just the number but WHEN they happened (drops on 3rd/4th down, in the end zone, etc.)

Their issues are fixable, smart teams don't give up on guys like this after 2 seasons. Soph slumps are real and more common than you think.

[beveaux1]

Packer fans are spoiled by having two HOF QBs for 30 years. Those are QBs that elevate a team. With them, you could make the playoffs nearly every year with a below average defense, or a below average running game, or even with below average receivers. They elevate a team and make up for a team weakness. Prescott, Carr, Hurts, Goff, Darnold, and also Love at this point in his career, are above average to good QBs that really don’t elevate their teams.

This year’s Packer team had a pretty good defense, a very good running game, good pass blocking, and a below average WR group. It really might have been the most talented team we’ve had since the 2010 team. Not quite as talented, but almost as talented. Love is a good, but not very good QB like Rodgers was, and Love doesn’t elevate the team.

We’re upset with Love because of the contract, but his cap number doesn’t become onerous for a couple of years. I think we have to understand that with a good, not great QB, the [B]team[B]has to be championship caliber. Maybe something like the Eagles with very good receivers, top notch OL, best RB, and a championship defense. They can win with a good, not great QB. But they can also lose if they face a team with a QB that can elevate their team like the Chiefs, Bills, or Ravens. Even if that team is not as good as the Eagles.

[texaspackerbacker]

I think accuracy is primarily a matter of innate ability. Love has great arm strength and near great mobility. His accuracy is good, but probably not quite elite. I have doubts whether mere coaching and work on fundamentals can do much to improve that.

What is needed is a change in Love's MINDSET. He had a few years to observe Rodgers avoiding interceptions, and the key to his own greatness is to get to that same level of NOT throwing into coverage and ending up with picks. the numbers Love had in that area could easily have been way worse than they were if some of those near miss interceptions were actually picked off.

[Fritz]

I think accuracy is primarily a matter of innate ability. Love has great arm strength and near great mobility. His accuracy is good, but probably not quite elite. I have doubts whether mere coaching and work on fundamentals can do much to improve that.

What is needed is a change in Love's MINDSET. He had a few years to observe Rodgers avoiding interceptions, and the key to his own greatness is to get to that same level of NOT throwing into coverage and ending up with picks. the numbers Love had in that area could easily have been way worse than they were if some of those near miss interceptions were actually picked off.

From everything I've read, footwork has a great deal to do with accuracy. And there are two parts to Rodgers's game that I am concerned that Love picked up on: first, the throwing-off-the-back-foot stuff. When Love is not set, he throws some inaccurate passes - he can throw on the run, but just throwing off the back foot while in the pocket - ugh.

The second aspect of Rodgers's game that I'm afraid Love picked up on perhaps is Rodgers's unwillingness to run later in his career. It's such a big part of a QB's arsenal these days. And you don't have to be a running QB, per se. You just gotta take it when it's there. Love seems to pass on wide-open fields stretching ahead of him - what appear to be opportunities to pick up ten or fifteen yards - so he can make a questionable throws that don't look promising and don't look like they'll pick up more than the ten or so yards he could safely get by taking off and running. Mahomes does it when it's called for - picks up that first down if he's got open field ahead. Other QB's do it and don't get hurt. Love seems unwilling to do so.

[sharpe1027]

I said what he said about Love meaning how he would regress. What’s Clifford gotta do wit it, do wit it?

Wasn't that the main argument? Are we talking about skinbasket?

[run pMc]

https://www.acmepackingcompany.com/2025/1/19/24347443/green-bay-packers-news-jordan-love-aaron-rodgers-statistical-comparison

I agree with Nuts. The talent is there, GB has pretty good coaches too. They are young and it takes some players time. They aren't going to improve on a straight curve, there will be bumps.
MLF was too emotional this year on the sidelines IMO, I wonder if he was getting too many opinions from Saleh, Getsy, Steno, Mr. Analytics, etc. in his ear and decided "fuck it, I'm going with my gut" and he'd make a stupid challenge on where the ball spot.

Gute has apparently got over he R3 curse but it seems like he now has a R1 curse. I get it. It's early to give up on Morgan or LVN. He's usually taking swings on high end athletes because he's often drafting in the 20's and if he hits on one it could be a difference maker. Like it or not, that's his MO. That aside, he's been pretty good on his picks, especially his recent ones: 2023 was a huge draft for the team in terms of a retool/rebuild. 2024 draft got them a few starters too, so it's looking promising. Getting to the playoffs immediately after dumping your aging franchise QB (and his contract) is basically a masterstroke. Hitting on both McKinney and Jacobs was huge for this team this year. Going forward, they have Bahk and A-A-Ron off the books and their next QB locked up. And by the way, that QB is still young and learning. Like the receivers, he'll develop and get better. Maybe the DAl playoff game is his ceiling, but it's a pretty good one and I think he can reach it again. There are probably a half dozen teams in the league who would take Love as their QB in a heartbeat (LV, CLE, TEN, NYG, CAR off the top of my head) and -- like it or not - the contract is the going price for a top 12 QB, which he is.

And no, Clifford is not the answer. That ship sailed in the offseason with his Interception-fest. Willis - another amazing Gute pickup that saved the season - couldn't do what Love does for a full season. Love is the QB now and going forward.

[Teamcheez1]

Rodgers ran for 107 yards this past season.
Love ran for 87 yards.
Williams 489 yards.
Darnold 212 yards.
Goff 56 yards.

[run pMc]

Rodgers ran for 107 yards this past season.
Love ran for 87 yards.
Williams 489 yards.
Darnold 212 yards.
Goff 56 yards.

Will Levis ran for about 180 yards; please explain how rushing yards applies. Are you saying there's a connection between rushing yards and being a good QB? Mobility is nice, but Brady did fine with poise, pocket presence, subtle moves, and quick decision making.

[MadtownPacker]

Wasn't that the main argument? Are we talking about skinbasket?
Yes but I was referring to his talk about Love regressing. The Clifford shit was just Skin man crushing on him to make Nutz jealous so no one paid it any mind.

[sharpe1027]

Yes but I was referring to his talk about Love regressing. The Clifford shit was just Skin man crushing on him to make Nutz jealous so no one paid it any mind.

Fair enough. His regression was very foreseeable. Anyone that thought it wasn't a real possibility was fooling themselves. It wasn't guaranteed, but it was why many of us were worried about the contract since it was based on only about half a year of play.

[Teamcheez1]

Will Levis ran for about 180 yards; please explain how rushing yards applies. Are you saying there's a connection between rushing yards and being a good QB? Mobility is nice, but Brady did fine with poise, pocket presence, subtle moves, and quick decision making.

The argument is that Love should be running when the opportunity or situation presents itself.
Instead, he is making ill-advised throws.

[Joemailman]

Just establishing the threat to run can give the defense one more thing to worry about. Especially in the red zone where the offense has less room to operate.

[call_me_ishmael]

Year two regression is very common across many different sports. We'll see how next year goes. If we're having the same discussion next Jan, I don't think he's gonna be the guy long term.

[Joemailman]

Year two regression is very common across many different sports. We'll see how next year goes. If we're having the same discussion next Jan, I don't think he's gonna be the guy long term.

Yep. CJ Stroud had a similar regression this year. Back in the day, Favre had a bigger 2nd year regression and didn't really turn it around until the 2nd half of his 3rd year. I think it will be interesting to see how he does with a new QB coach. Maybe he will have a better rapport with a younger up and coming guy than he had with the 71 year old Clements at the end of his career.

[QBME]

Yep. CJ Stroud had a similar regression this year. Back in the day, Favre had a bigger 2nd year regression and didn't really turn it around until the 2nd half of his 3rd year. I think it will be interesting to see how he does with a new QB coach. Maybe he will have a better rapport with a younger up and coming guy than he had with the 71 year old Clements at the end of his career.

A very interesting take.
Maybe it permeates through the team.
We have a lot of great young potential.
QB for sure.
DL line for sure. They ran a bunch of high school stuff. (No offense Nutz)
I believe the Flower is about to come into his own.
Yes, I bleed Green and Gold, but I gotta feeling.

[Fritz]

Well, I've come around to thinking that the Love we saw the second half of last year, and for a stretch of a few games this year, could not have been just a mirage. He performed.

Yes, he regressed - but I do think the shitty footwork was in part at fault, and I hope that they can fix that, as well as having the game slow down enough so his decision making gets better.

And then if the wide receivers catch the damn ball, well, that'll help a great deal, too.

[Bretsky]

Well, I've come around to thinking that the Love we saw the second half of last year, and for a stretch of a few games this year, could not have been just a mirage. He performed.

Yes, he regressed - but I do think the shitty footwork was in part at fault, and I hope that they can fix that, as well as having the game slow down enough so his decision making gets better.

And then if the wide receivers catch the damn ball, well, that'll help a great deal, too.

That is kinda the two edged sword. A lot of those "drops" where marginal passes. If Love was more accurate with the passes the drops would have been far less. And the WR's weren't good enough to make Love better by catching the sub par throws.

Kinda funny last year we had some noticing they'd take Love over any QB in football. I have no clue where it is anymore. But this year he was just average.

[SkinBasket]

Calm down he isn’t your wife. At least not outside of prison. But sadly yes everything he said about Love as a QB has played out this season.

I will take that as an apology assuming you’re still in a country with internet.

[Sparkey]

Drops are not marked against a receiver if it is considered a bad throw...

[run pMc]

The argument is that Love should be running when the opportunity or situation presents itself.
Instead, he is making ill-advised throws.

Agree with that. I think the injuries made him reluctant to do so. I also think he wants to be a passer not a runner perhaps a bit too stubbornly, but i don't see anything wrong with running 5-6 yards and sliding if there's nobody open. 2nd and 5 is better than 2nd and 10, obviously.

[texaspackerbacker]

I think it's a matter of coaching - he's being told to keep the running to a minimum. Willis has more of a reputation as a runner than Love, and he didn't run much either when he played.

[ThunderDan]

Willis ran 20 times for the season and 16 times in the 3 games he started or saw significant playing time. Of course a bunch of those were designed QB runs and Read Options.

[MadtownPacker]

I will take that as an apology assuming you’re still in a country with internet.
Apology?? Don’t be so pathetic dude this is the fucking Internet not your relationship :lol:. But I get your need for validation. I said it looks like you were right. Save that Oprah Winfrey type shit for afternoon television shows you tiny racist fuck! :lol:

[MadtownPacker]

Agree with that. I think the injuries made him reluctant to do so. I also think he wants to be a passer not a runner perhaps a bit too stubbornly, but i don't see anything wrong with running 5-6 yards and sliding if there's nobody open. 2nd and 5 is better than 2nd and 10, obviously.
Yeah, it was frustrating to watch. That’s pretty much how Mahomes keeps drives alive. Seems to work well for KC.

[MadtownPacker]

I think it's a matter of coaching - he's being told to keep the running to a minimum. Willis has more of a reputation as a runner than Love, and he didn't run much either when he played. I also have wondered this too. Cause it sure as hell looks like he’s thinking don’t run don’t run.

[Fritz]

I also have wondered this too. Cause it sure as hell looks like he’s thinking don’t run don’t run.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7T3y3FPNFGc

i think there's general agreement here that Love needs to use his legs more. He doesn't need to go crashing into linebackers and defensive backs, but if he sees open field on third-and-seven, then, well, Run Forrest, Run.

And slide at the end before you get hit.

[Sparkey]

I also have wondered this too. Cause it sure as hell looks like he’s thinking don’t run don’t run.

Coming off a pcl tear and then dealing with a slight groin pull, I'd be hesitant to run. The injuries more than likely affected his footwork at times as well.

[SkinBasket]

Fair enough. His regression was very foreseeable. Anyone that thought it wasn't a real possibility was fooling themselves. It wasn't guaranteed, but it was why many of us were worried about the contract since it was based on only about half a year of play.

Hahahaha! You are so full of shit, you strawman beating JLO cocksucker. Go back and read yo posts, since no one else wants to. Holy shit. Wow!

[SkinBasket]

Apology?? Don’t be so pathetic dude this is the fucking Internet not your relationship :lol:. But I get your need for validation. I said it looks like you were right. Save that Oprah Winfrey type shit for afternoon television shows you tiny racist fuck! :lol:

Says the guy who says making fun of Love’s hair is racist. Gaaaaaayyyyy. To the bone.

[MadtownPacker]

Says the guy who says making fun of Love’s hair is racist. Gaaaaaayyyyy. To the bone.
Dude you are firing more blanks than on date night. If I recall, that was the one thing you said that was funny and agreed with because he does look like sideshow Bob with that cut. You made it racial by being yourself but we accept you here regardless. Low standards are your friend! :lol:

[SkinBasket]

Low standards are your friend! :lol:

I’m picturing Mike Lindell right now, and not for the reasons you’re thinking.

Also, I’ve never asked you, I don’t think, but seriously, you are legal aren’t you? I mean, you flew on a plane and everything, but modern times has me questioning all kinds of thangs. Don’t worry, I don’t know how to contact ICE.

[bobblehead]

Hahahaha! You are so full of shit, you strawman beating JLO cocksucker. Go back and read yo posts, since no one else wants to. Holy shit. Wow!

When is the Sean Clifford MVP season coming?

[MadtownPacker]

I’m picturing Mike Lindell right now, and not for the reasons you’re thinking.

Also, I’ve never asked you, I don’t think, but seriously, you are legal aren’t you? I mean, you flew on a plane and everything, but modern times has me questioning all kinds of thangs. Don’t worry, I don’t know how to contact ICE.
Born and raised in the valley of Cali but don’t make this convo political please stay on track.

Funny I have always wanted to ask you if you are legally considered a Little Person. I just remember MJZiggy being about your same height but she was 4’11” and thin. You would’ve made an awesome Tyrion Lannister with your cool wit and snappy comebacks.

[MadtownPacker]

When is the Sean Clifford MVP season coming?
2026 but it will be for another team then Skin will bandwagon with them.

[woodbuck27]

Lafleur just can't spread enough love on Love. expressed all his love on Love in the post game presser. I don't blame him, but I would also like to see a coach state the absolute facts about his QB's play in 2024. It wasn't near good enough for the Packers to actually contend for a championship.

Yes, injuries, rise above them, the previous two QB1's played exceptionally well through injuries. The rest of the QBs in the league play through injuries. I am sure he is going to get his knee cleaned up in the off season, and Love never made excuses about his injuries impacting his play.

Lack of a true #1 receiver, I see the frustration with Doubs not showing up to practices, having extremely weak neck muscles that he can't brace his head when fall to the ground. His neck is like a limp noodle as his head just slams to the ground each time he goes airborne. Also the biggest frustration and concern is Watson. He is one of the best deep threats in the league, but his constant leg injuries are probably going to cut his career short with Green Bay as his health has consistently hampered his ability to become that #1 receiver. Regardless the receiver room is talented not top heavy but with the two tight ends there are open receivers on just about every pass play, the concern for me is that Love is struggling with his reads and downfield vision.

See I heard this the other week, really good QB's have their primary focus downfield, while their secondary focus is on the defenders trying to sack them. Think of your secondary focus as instinct, that timer in the back of your head. It's more feel than recognition. Love really struggles with dividing his attention between the pass rush and what is going on in the secondary, when he scrambles out of the pocket he lacks vision, gets target lock on the first green jersey he sees, and he truly lacks accuracy throwing on the run. Favre was better than Rodgers at plays that broke the pocket because of his weird 6th sense, and his gifts of improvisation, but Rodgers was also excellent because he seemed to keep his eyes downfield and could leverage defenders with his legs. Both Favre and Rodgers had the arm strength and the accuracy to make any throw on the run without having to properly set their feet. Packer fans were truly spoiled watching these two maneuver the pocket and make plays when things broke down. Not sure if this is something where Love can get exponentially better at.

Love has an NFL average arm. I am talking strength and accuracy. His accuracy really struggles when he can't rely on rhythm throws. balls sail on him all the time. He needs his footwork to be spot on for him to constantly make completions. Again Packer fans have been spoiled, Favre and Rodgers had ridiculously strong arms and could make throws from any angle with their feet in any position, but Love isn't even in the same atmosphere as those guys.

He let the interceptions bother him earlier in the year, and became tentative. His interceptions were bad, they weren't good throws or good decisions. A lot of the really bad ones to me were out of desperation and panic. It wasn't because he was trying to sling a fastball over the middle between two defenders. His interceptions were not aggressive mistakes, they were bad throws and bad decisions. Fine don't do that anymore, but you still have to be aggressive throwing the ball down field, you can't be tentative with those throws, slow lobs over the middle are bad for business, constant check downs are bad for business.

Overall I didn't see a lot of confidence showing through in his play this year. I think he is talented but he doesn't hold a candle to the guys ahead of him, and that is alright, not many do. I am just not sure he has the overall ability to carry this team to a Super Bowl. There are going to have be a lot of pieces put around him. He isn't going any where with that contract, so the Packers need to insulate him as much as possible.

An impressive analysis. Thank you. Woodbuck

[bobblehead]

Born and raised in the valley of Cali but don’t make this convo political please stay on track.

Funny I have always wanted to ask you if you are legally considered a Little Person. I just remember MJZiggy being about your same height but she was 4’11” and thin. You would’ve made an awesome Tyrion Lannister with your cool wit and snappy comebacks.

Possibly the sickest burn I have read in years. (never met skin. envisioned him as 6'1" and 137 lbs.)

[smuggler]

Says the guy who says making fun of Love’s hair is racist. Gaaaaaayyyyy. To the bone.

You can think someone's hair looks goofy without making it a race thing. Only an idiot reduces everything to race.

[sharpe1027]

You can think someone's hair looks goofy without making it a race thing. Only an idiot reduces everything to race.

Yeah, but when you're also calling him a half-white etc., it's a reasonable inference to draw...context matters.

[Fritz]

An impressive analysis. Thank you. Woodbuck

Is nobody going to comment on Woody's being back, or did I just miss the commentary elsewhere?

Woody! What the hell! How's things in the Great White North?

[sharpe1027]

Is nobody going to comment on Woody's being back, or did I just miss the commentary elsewhere?

Woody! What the hell! How's things in the Great White North?

Woody is Lazarus, back from forum death.

[SkinBasket]

Born and raised in the valley of Cali but don’t make this convo political please stay on track.

Funny I have always wanted to ask you if you are legally considered a Little Person. I just remember MJZiggy being about your same height but she was 4’11” and thin. You would’ve made an awesome Tyrion Lannister with your cool wit and snappy comebacks.

Sorry I hurt your feelings. I was just curious. I like the illegal ones better because they laugh and smile a lot more.

[SkinBasket]

When is the Sean Clifford MVP season coming?

I would bet $5000 it doesn’t come any later than JLO’s. And the savings for the team would be spectacular. At some point you got to let it go dude. Love is just not good at almost everything a QB needs to be good at. It’s okay to be wrong. Let me know when you forgive yourself, then I’ll feel comfortable forgiving you too. Hugs!

[MadtownPacker]

Sorry I hurt your feelings. I was just curious. I like the illegal ones better because they laugh and smile a lot more.Plus they are usually short too so you are among your peeps no doubt.

What are you apologizing for. Thought we all OWE you an apology because you were right or something. This shit is like a toxic relationship so confusing! Regardless it warms my brown little heart more than hot salsa seeing you more sensitive now as you have grown older. The shock jock routine had grown quite stale. Shit even Partial has grown up, still a dbag, but he is distinguished now :lol:.

[MadtownPacker]

I would bet $5000 it doesn’t come any later than JLO’s. And the savings for the team would be spectacular. At some point you got to let it go dude. Love is just not good at almost everything a QB needs to be good at. It’s okay to be wrong. Let me know when you forgive yourself, then I’ll feel comfortable forgiving you too. Hugs!
He regressed horribly this season. I’m gonna blame his fiancée since that’s how we did it with Rodgers at first.

[sharpe1027]

He regressed horribly this season. I’m gonna blame his fiancée since that’s how we did it with Rodgers at first.


Most people here were cautiously optimistic, but still worried about the huge contract on the small sample size of games. Skin keeps pushing a strawman argument that everyone thought that he was a sure HoFer.

[Joemailman]

He regressed horribly this season. I’m gonna blame his fiancée since that’s how we did it with Rodgers at first.

He regressed horribly only if you compare his 2024 to the 8 game stretch in 2023 when he had a 21-1 TD/INT ratio. For the 2024 season, yards per attempt were better, yards per completion were better, passer rating same, QBR better, Completion pct. down just slightly despite receivers leading NFL in drops. Only reason yards and TD's were down was because he missed the equivalent of 3 games and threw 800 fewer passes. The only stat really got worse was interception pct. which went from 1.9 to 2.6. Some of that can probably be attributed to unloading the ball to avoid sacks in the 1st half of the season due to his injury. Sacks went from 30-14.

In 2023 his highs were higher and his lows were lower. The overall results weren't that different. He needs to get better, but he needs more help. His receivers in 2024 regressed more than he did.

[MadScientist]

In 2023 his highs were higher and his lows were lower. The overall results weren't that different. He needs to get better, but he needs more help. His receivers in 2024 regressed more than he did.

I would agree the receivers regressed more. I'm surprised the receivers coach kept his job. This was his first year coaching receivers and they all regressed. How often, even late in the year, was MLF saying that the reason for this or that interception was the receiver running the wrong route or not getting the depth correct. That cost us several games.