IN GUTEBAG, DO YOU REALLY TRUST ?????

[Bretsky]

Hearing about Gouchebag's recent interviews, he feels the Packers roster as is is contructed to compete for a Super Bowl.

As you know I've pointed out, Gutebag never ever admits a mistake. And everybody makes them

So WHEN, do we HOLD Gutebag accountable for this work ? CLEARLY you know what he thinks. We need more production out of the players in the building. So all these high upside RASites, some of which were really never great football players, need better development.

HENCE, INITIAL SCAPEGOAT......BYE BYE DEFENSIVE LINE COACH....you are not doing your job in developing Van Ness....wait...was he really ever a great football players.....or WYATT....etc.

HERE IS A LIST OF GUTE's 1st round draft picks

2018 JAIRE ALEXANDER----18............Great talent, questionable drive
2019 RASHAN GARY --------12...........No Double Digit sack seasons...but solid mostly
2019 DARNELL SAVAGE-----21...........Bust ?
2020 JORDAN LOVE----------26..........Solid, need to step forward instead of backwards again
2021 ERIC STOKES----------29...........Bust ?
2022 QUAY WALKER----------22..........Unsure what we have here but kinda disappointing
2022 DEVONTE WYATT-------27...........SEE COMMENT ON LINE ABOVE
2023 LUCAS VAN NESS -----13---------One Trick Pony, but dam good RAS scores !!
2924 JORDAN MORGAN -----25 ..........Who Knows

HERE IS A LIST of GUTE's 2nd Round Draft Picks

2018 JOSH JACKSON
2019 ELGON JENKINS
2020 AJ DILLON
2021 JOSH MYERS
2022 CHRISTIAN WATSON (He is GUTE's TWO SECOND ROUND DRAFT PICKS)
2923 LUKE MUSGRAVE
2023 JAYDON REED
2024 EDGERRIN COOPER
2024 JAVON BULLARD

And let's not even go to round the round 3 list

SO ALL IN ALL, your GUT, what GRADE DO YOU GIVE THE GUTEBAG, and IS IT TIME TO START HOLDING HIM ACCOUNTABLE ? Or do we just keep dumping the blame to the coaches ??????

[Bretsky]

RANDOM THOUGHTS

I highlighted the draft picks; I think most of us can remember his free agent signings ? This is his 7th years. I think at this point both Ron Wolf and Ted Thompson has won their Super Bowl

He seems to place little to no value on having veterans, as leaders in the locker room and as backups to guide the young players. Imagine what our season would have been without Bruce Wilkinson the year we won the Super Bowl. I get wanting to go youthful; but is his stubborness with this over the top ?

The local ESPN guys have had some fun wars on this very topic lately. When is the time to start holding Gute accountable for not getting to a Super Bowl, if that is actually the goal ?

FUNNY STAT....OF ALL the DL's and Linebackers Gute has drafted they have 99 sacks over the last 7 seasons. Tre Hendrickson has 71 over the last 5 seasons.

I hope this thread leads to some entertaining debate, fighting, and drives GOUCHEBAG to prove me wrong and Win a SUPER BOWL.

It's SUPER BOWL OR BUST GOUCHEBAG; you have pretty much said so recently, although you continue to shift the focus back to the coaches to bring out the youthful talent.

WHEN does the focus shift to drafting the right players ???????

[call_me_ishmael]

I think Gooter is a little overrated so far. It's hard to argue with the results of the team during his tenure but I think his drafts have been pretty mediocre. How did the team get so good during those years? Was it ARod motivated again? The new coach? Weak NFC?

[Bretsky]

I think Gooter is a little overrated so far. It's hard to argue with the results of the team during his tenure but I think his drafts have been pretty mediocre. How did the team get so good during those years? Was it ARod motivated again? The new coach? Weak NFC?

One could easily argue all of the above. For several years the NFC North was horrible, and AROD played at an NFL MVP level for several of those as well.

I know there are a lot of Gouchebag homers in here; Mark Tauscher is one of them as well althogh he's softened a bit on his Gutebag glorification.

But a lot of the local ESNP guys argue he's fairly average. And to be fair, they are slightly bias'd to the negative because he t perceived as a pretty stubborn person who can't admit to anything wrong.

The also LOVED Ron Wolf. During a training camp, when Jason Wilde was there, he tells a story of when Ron Wolf used a 5th round draft pick to draft a speciall teams returner who he thought could be dominant. Wolf was watching practive and the guy (Jameson something I think) kept dropping punt after punt and just could not catch the ball.

Ron Wolf turned to Wilde and several media guys and blurted out "WELL I guess I really F'cked up that draft pick".

Dude was cute shortly after and never played a game as a Packer. The Media just loved Ron Wolf cause he was straight forward, and told it like it is with little filter

[bobblehead]

I gave the solid B and without a long unreadable post I'll explain:

His early draft picks and obsession with RAS is....bad. His work in the later rounds where he drafts character and production is stellar. Coaching in fact DOES matter though. Gary wasn't productive, but is a freak. When we had the best OLB coach in the business (mike white) Gary developed and excelled. When we lost Mike White Gary got hurt and then fell off. Its a big part of the total equation and hiring the right guys is on Gutes and MiLF. Gutes has been solid, but we have lost a lot of good coaches because they are in demand. Bad coaches stay in their current jobs too long as a rule (see Peter principle.)

I would say the biggest mistake was holding on to Rodgers a season or 2 too long. Selling out the future for that one last run with him. That said, how well did we bounce back after moving on!! We are still brutally young. (youngest in NFL on opening day in 24 and 25). Why wouldn't you expect a playoff team that was youngest in the league 2 years running to improve??

As for Ron Wolf, yea, bang up job. He had the biggest war chest in the NFL at a time when there was free agency and no salary cap. He managed the same number of Owl wins as TT. Less championship games and I am only guessing here, but probably not much higher winning %. If God didn't tell Reggie White to sign with the team offering the most money how good does Wolf look? Basically he was gifted the greatest DL of all time without spending a draft pick and he had similar success to TT. Gutes hasn't gotten the OWL yet, but his success of fielding winning teams is pretty good.

Bottom line, you gotta judge the results on the field. Gutes has been really good, no 2 ways about it. This roster is 100% his and its a roster that will be among the best in the NFL this year. The cap is solid and we will re sign most of our own. Thats at worst a solid B.

[Fritz]

It's a B for me. His first round picks have often not worked out very well, and that's his biggest sin, to me.

Of course this grade will change in part depending on how Love plays this year.

[King Friday]

I’ve been very critical on Gute in terms of his inability to find better players at the top of the draft. Granted, he never has a top 10 pick to work with, but he should be hitting quality starters 50%+ when he’s picking 15-25, which has been the general area he’s operated. He’s not met that standard. However, he’s proven better than average in other ways as GM.

This is a big year for him. The team has proven they have enough talent to compete with the top teams, but needs a couple more pieces to become championship caliber. Drafting some kind of project isn’t what we are looking for at this point. A roster full of very good players simply doesn’t get it done. You need a handful of impact guys as well. Cooper may be one of those kind of guys, and now you need to stack someone else on top of that in 2025.

[sharpe1027]

He was involved in hiring MLF. Could have done way worse there.

[sharpe1027]

Jordan Love the draft pick is above expectations. Look at how terrible the hit rate for QBs is even in the top half of the draft. Signing that huge contract is TBD, but I'm not sure what other realistic options he had.

[Teamcheez1]

I think Gute has done a solid B in running the team.
The problem is we need an A to win a Super Bowl.

[bobblehead]

It's a B for me. His first round picks have often not worked out very well, and that's his biggest sin, to me.

Of course this grade will change in part depending on how Love plays this year.

Just for reference here is the 2021 first round:

1 1 Jacksonville Jaguars Trevor Lawrence † QB Clemson ACC
1 2 New York Jets Zach Wilson QB BYU Ind. (FBS)
1 3 San Francisco 49ers Trey Lance QB
1 4 Atlanta Falcons Kyle Pitts † TE
1 5 Cincinnati Bengals Ja'Marr Chase † WR
1 6 Miami Dolphins Jaylen Waddle WR
1 7 Detroit Lions Penei Sewell † OT
1 8 Carolina Panthers Jaycee Horn † CB South Carolina SEC
1 9 Denver Broncos Patrick Surtain II † CB Alabama SEC
1 10 Philadelphia Eagles DeVonta Smith WR Alabama
1 11 Chicago Bears Justin Fields QB Ohio State Big Ten
1 12 Dallas Cowboys Micah Parsons † LB
1 13 Los Angeles Chargers Rashawn Slater † OT Northwestern Big Ten
1 14 New York Jets Alijah Vera-Tucker OG
1 15 New England Patriots Mac Jones † QB
1 16 Arizona Cardinals Zaven Collins LB Tulsa The American
2020 Bronko Nagurski Trophy winner and Chuck Bednarik Award winner
1 17 Las Vegas Raiders Alex Leatherwood OT
1 18 Miami Dolphins Jaelan Phillips DE Miami (FL) ACC
1 19 Washington Football Team Jamin Davis LB Kentucky SEC
1 20 New York Giants Kadarius Toney WR Florid
1 21 Indianapolis Colts Kwity Paye DE Michigan Big Ten
1 22 Tennessee Titans Caleb Farley CB Virginia Tech ACC
1 23 Minnesota Vikings Christian Darrisaw OT
1 24 Pittsburgh Steelers Najee Harris † RB Alabama
1 25 Jacksonville Jaguars Travis Etienne RB Clemson ACC
1 26 Cleveland Browns Greg Newsome II CB Northwestern Big Ten
1 27 Baltimore Ravens Rashod Bateman WR Minnesota Big Ten
1 28 New Orleans Saints Payton Turner DE Houston The American
1 29 Green Bay Packers Eric Stokes CB Georgia SEC
1 30 Buffalo Bills Gregory Rousseau DE Miami (FL) ACC
1 31 Baltimore Ravens Odafe Oweh DE Penn Stat
1 32 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Joe Tryon-Shoyinka DE Washington Pac-12

I cleaned it up some, but consider where the packers pick consistently. It ain't like every GM is picking nothing but all pros in the first and our guy is cutting guys coming out of their first camp. He could be better, but expectations have to be realistic.

[bobblehead]

I think Gute has done a solid B in running the team.
The problem is we need an A to win a Super Bowl.

So only about 3 GMs at any time get an A?? Thats actually fair. I guess thats why I gave him a B. A lot of things I said ahead of time have played out pretty well, so its not like I'm being harsh when I criticize for certain moves. Trading back and getting Sweat instead of Gary would have been stellar. Not trading up for Savage was a no brainer at the time. I hated the Van Ness pick because there were guys available right there you could use with similar upside. (Gonzalez, CB and Jones, OT were the guys I wanted). I wanted Wyatt when we picked Walker, so can't complain since we got him anyway. Peyton Wilson over Hopper was the biggest no brainer I ever saw and we botched that one. I didn't like Bullard or Lloyd last year, time will tell, but I was high on Evan Williams immediately. Again, Gutes makes me hate life on day 1 and 2 of the draft, but he nails day 3.

[Patler]

Gute hit a grand slam in 2022. You can argue about whether or not QW and DW have played to the level of where they were picked, but they and 6 others (Watson, Ryan, Doubs, Tom, Rasheed Walker, Enagbare) are returning starters going into their 4th seasons. Drafting 8 players in one draft who are starters in their third seasons on a winning team is outstanding.

[texaspackerbacker]

Just for reference here is the 2021 first round:

1 1 Jacksonville Jaguars Trevor Lawrence † QB Clemson ACC
1 2 New York Jets Zach Wilson QB BYU Ind. (FBS)
1 3 San Francisco 49ers Trey Lance QB
1 4 Atlanta Falcons Kyle Pitts † TE
1 5 Cincinnati Bengals Ja'Marr Chase † WR
1 6 Miami Dolphins Jaylen Waddle WR
1 7 Detroit Lions Penei Sewell † OT
1 8 Carolina Panthers Jaycee Horn † CB South Carolina SEC
1 9 Denver Broncos Patrick Surtain II † CB Alabama SEC
1 10 Philadelphia Eagles DeVonta Smith WR Alabama
1 11 Chicago Bears Justin Fields QB Ohio State Big Ten
1 12 Dallas Cowboys Micah Parsons † LB
1 13 Los Angeles Chargers Rashawn Slater † OT Northwestern Big Ten
1 14 New York Jets Alijah Vera-Tucker OG
1 15 New England Patriots Mac Jones † QB
1 16 Arizona Cardinals Zaven Collins LB Tulsa The American
2020 Bronko Nagurski Trophy winner and Chuck Bednarik Award winner
1 17 Las Vegas Raiders Alex Leatherwood OT
1 18 Miami Dolphins Jaelan Phillips DE Miami (FL) ACC
1 19 Washington Football Team Jamin Davis LB Kentucky SEC
1 20 New York Giants Kadarius Toney WR Florid
1 21 Indianapolis Colts Kwity Paye DE Michigan Big Ten
1 22 Tennessee Titans Caleb Farley CB Virginia Tech ACC
1 23 Minnesota Vikings Christian Darrisaw OT
1 24 Pittsburgh Steelers Najee Harris † RB Alabama
1 25 Jacksonville Jaguars Travis Etienne RB Clemson ACC
1 26 Cleveland Browns Greg Newsome II CB Northwestern Big Ten
1 27 Baltimore Ravens Rashod Bateman WR Minnesota Big Ten
1 28 New Orleans Saints Payton Turner DE Houston The American
1 29 Green Bay Packers Eric Stokes CB Georgia SEC
1 30 Buffalo Bills Gregory Rousseau DE Miami (FL) ACC
1 31 Baltimore Ravens Odafe Oweh DE Penn Stat
1 32 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Joe Tryon-Shoyinka DE Washington Pac-12

I cleaned it up some, but consider where the packers pick consistently. It ain't like every GM is picking nothing but all pros in the first and our guy is cutting guys coming out of their first camp. He could be better, but expectations have to be realistic.

That's an amazing number of flops and mediocre successes on that list, especially if you get below the top 12 or so. So it's far from only the Packers who aren't drafting first round superstars.

I'd probably grade Gutekunst at about B+ based on the whole picture - much better success in mid and low rounds as well as like somebody said, hiring LaFleur - who probably gets about an A- grade IMO.

[Patler]

Hearing about Gouchebag's recent interviews, he feels the Packers roster as is is contructed to compete for a Super Bowl.

As you know I've pointed out, Gutebag never ever admits a mistake. And everybody makes them


Actually, I think Gute admits to mistakes faster than many GMs. Does he play to the media like Wolf did? No. Does he make self-deprecating remarks to be "one of the guys" with the media? No.

What Gute has done to admit his mistakes is move on from the players by cutting or trading them even before their rookie contracts are up. Even high draft picks and players he used two draft picks for by trading up to draft them. Jace Sternberger, Amari Rodgers, Josh Jackson, J'Mon Moore, Royce Newman, Anders Carlson (not a higher round pick, but a pick used on a kicker is noteworthy}. Gute doesn't make a big deal about it, just moves on from the player. Sometimes in the past it has seemed that a pick in rounds 1-4 had a four-year career in the bag.



He seems to place little to no value on having veterans, as leaders in the locker room and as backups to guide the young players. Imagine what our season would have been without Bruce Wilkinson the year we won the Super Bowl. I get wanting to go youthful; but is his stubborness with this over the top ?


What constitutes a "veteran" leader? He brought in 2 last year in their fifth seasons, one in his 6th, and one in his 10th. This year he has signed two in their fifth seasons and one in his 7th.

In the past he signed guys like Mercedes Lewis, Jared Veldhere, Jimmie Graham, Ricky Wagner, Jarran Reed, Dennis Kelly, Christian Kirksey, Billy Turner, Campbell, Ford, Leavitt, Wilson, Pat O'Donnell who had 5, 6, 7, 10 or more years in the league. Some played a lot as starters or reserves filling in for injured starters. Had the Packers won a SB in those years, we would have talked about those signings just as we do about Wilkerson.

[sharpe1027]

I agree with Patler.

[Fritz]

I do think the grade depends in large part how Love's next year or two turn out. For better or worse, a GM's job rating depends on how good his team is, which depends most of the time on how good the QB is. So you get judged in large part by the QB you acquire and play. And that's Love. Was it a good pick at that spot in the draft? Seems so. But signing Love to the mega deal is the bigger part of it - that's a lot of the sal cap to invest in a guy who had a half of a good year. So if Love pans out as we hope, Gute's grade will move up. If Love sputters again, down goes the grade.

I'm glad the guy can own up to his mistakes by not hanging on to them. But I wish he didn't make so many in the first round.

[bobblehead]

Actually, I think Gute admits to mistakes faster than many GMs. Does he play to the media like Wolf did? No. Does he make self-deprecating remarks to be "one of the guys" with the media? No.

What Gute has done to admit his mistakes is move on from the players by cutting or trading them even before their rookie contracts are up. Even high draft picks and players he used two draft picks for by trading up to draft them. Jace Sternberger, Amari Rodgers, Josh Jackson, J'Mon Moore, Royce Newman, Anders Carlson (not a higher round pick, but a pick used on a kicker is noteworthy}. Gute doesn't make a big deal about it, just moves on from the player. Sometimes in the past it has seemed that a pick in rounds 1-4 had a four-year career in the bag.



What constitutes a "veteran" leader? He brought in 2 last year in their fifth seasons, one in his 6th, and one in his 10th. This year he has signed two in their fifth seasons and one in his 7th.

In the past he signed guys like Mercedes Lewis, Jared Veldhere, Jimmie Graham, Ricky Wagner, Jarran Reed, Dennis Kelly, Christian Kirksey, Billy Turner, Campbell, Ford, Leavitt, Wilson, Pat O'Donnell who had 5, 6, 7, 10 or more years in the league. Some played a lot as starters or reserves filling in for injured starters. Had the Packers won a SB in those years, we would have talked about those signings just as we do about Wilkerson.

Patler, you had a really nice post going, then you mentioned Jimmy Graham and I threw up on my keyboard.

[bobblehead]

Incidentally if we were to win the Owl this year (definitely in the realm of possible outcomes) does he instantly get the A? I would think he almost has to given the overall body of work. Philly lost a few key defensive players and we held them to 22 points. I expect our young roster to be better and I don't see any team in the league that I can say with certainty we can't compete with.

Det, Phi, GB all have to be in the discussion to emerge in the NFC. Wash is a year out yet. MN was sort of a fluke imo and they are starting over at QB AGAIN. Rams could be the darkhorse. Any given year and all, but I think GB has to be among the top 3 to emerge. And I got 24-1 the other day so I put my money where my mouth is and dropped $200 on it.

A big question I have to ask is, how injured was Love most of the year. He didn't run AT ALL. Factor in cleaning up some drops and he might just have a monster season. But then again, if he wasn't hurt and just chose to stop running then I have to worry.

[ThunderDan]

I do think the grade depends in large part how Love's next year or two turn out. For better or worse, a GM's job rating depends on how good his team is, which depends most of the time on how good the QB is. So you get judged in large part by the QB you acquire and play. And that's Love. Was it a good pick at that spot in the draft? Seems so. But signing Love to the mega deal is the bigger part of it - that's a lot of the sal cap to invest in a guy who had a half of a good year. So if Love pans out as we hope, Gute's grade will move up. If Love sputters again, down goes the grade.

I'm glad the guy can own up to his mistakes by not hanging on to them. But I wish he didn't make so many in the first round.

I was going to post this but I am in the office 70+ hours right now.

How the ARod to Love transition works out long-term will determine the final grade.

[call_me_ishmael]

Good thread here. I guess I think he's really good at everything other than drafting. I'd like to see more success. Agreed 2022 was a great draft and agree that he moves on from people at the right time.

I think he will get a chance to find another QB if Love doesn't work out.

Not sure he'll ever win a Super Bowl.

Feels kinda Steeler esque, doesn't he?

[bobblehead]

I was going to post this but I am in the office 70+ hours right now.

How the ARod to Love transition works out long-term will determine the final grade.

To a small extent I disagree with you and Fritz here. If Love is average, but we in an Owl he still gets the A in my book. If Love is stellar and we can't get over the hump, he stays a B. It really comes down to him taking that last step and at least GETTING to a championship game.

[bobblehead]

Good thread here. I guess I think he's really good at everything other than drafting. I'd like to see more success. Agreed 2022 was a great draft and agree that he moves on from people at the right time.

I think he will get a chance to find another QB if Love doesn't work out.

Not sure he'll ever win a Super Bowl.

Feels kinda Steeler esque, doesn't he?

The steelers have won more Super Bowls than any franchise not name Patriots and they are tied with them. Just saying....bad example.

[call_me_ishmael]

The steelers have won more Super Bowls than any franchise not name Patriots and they are tied with them. Just saying....bad example.

Fair. I was thinking more along the lines of consistently good but very rarely great in the current landscape. Feels apt. Steelers are really good drafters though, so maybe a bad example.

[bobblehead]

Fair. I was thinking more along the lines of consistently good but very rarely great in the current landscape. Feels apt. Steelers are really good drafters though, so maybe a bad example.

I got your point, I just think that the facts actually back my viewpoint. If you are always in the mix you can win a few. I do wish we had won one more with each of our HOF QBs so we would be tied as well, but it didn't work out that way. I want to stay in the mix with Love and hopefully we can get hot at the right time (and stay healthy). Last year Detroit got injured and Philly stayed healthy. Both were better than us I believe....however if we had stayed as healthy as Philly who can say for sure. Now FA has weakened them and barely scratched our young ascending team. I like our chances. I do wish we had kept TJ Slayton though. The only loss I feel hurt us.

[Fritz]

I got your point, I just think that the facts actually back my viewpoint. If you are always in the mix you can win a few. I do wish we had won one more with each of our HOF QBs so we would be tied as well, but it didn't work out that way. I want to stay in the mix with Love and hopefully we can get hot at the right time (and stay healthy). Last year Detroit got injured and Philly stayed healthy. Both were better than us I believe....however if we had stayed as healthy as Philly who can say for sure. Now FA has weakened them and barely scratched our young ascending team. I like our chances. I do wish we had kept TJ Slayton though. The only loss I feel hurt us.

As i understand it, the defensive tackle crop this year is pretty promising, so maybe they're thinking they can nab a run-stuffing DT in the fourth or fifth round and replace that way. Or maybe they'll got for one earlier to try to upgrade. I can't tell whether Kenny Clark would be better at the nose or the three. I don't know enough about football to know.

[run pMc]

Patler and others have made some good points. Yes, that includes Tex. Referencing that 2021 draft, I bet SF fans are still roasting John Lynch for trading up for Trey Lance. Jamar Chase would have been deadly in Shanahan's offense.

I agree Gute's R1 picks have not been great. For fun, go look at Ron Wolf's R1 track record. Woof. I do think Gute has made up for it with his lower round picks. Getting a pair of starting tackles in Tom and Walker is incredible, for example. He's also been pretty good in free agency: aside from Jimmy Graham, his big signings have paid off pretty well. I think a B is a fair grade for him. He has room to improve, and if Love flames out the grade could drop a bit. One other criticism I have with the lackluster R1 picks is that your playmakers and difference makers are usually early round picks. You can draft well overall and end up with a good roster -- which they have -- but end up without many or any truly great players. At this point we know they are good, but are they great? I think they need that to get them over the top.

and yes, coaching 100% matters.

[run pMc]

As i understand it, the defensive tackle crop this year is pretty promising, so maybe they're thinking they can nab a run-stuffing DT in the fourth or fifth round and replace that way. Or maybe they'll got for one earlier to try to upgrade. I can't tell whether Kenny Clark would be better at the nose or the three. I don't know enough about football to know.

I think they'd do well to try and get a Kenny replacement. Someone who can (or used to be able to) play both the run and the pass. Slaton was good against the run, but he was no help rushing the passer. The metrics back that up, and if they want to sort out their pass rush problem an interior guy who can play 3 downs would be a good start. There are players in this draft who can help them there and fit Hafley's D.

[run pMc]

There are teams with HOF level QBs who haven't won one SB. Marino & Kelly come to mind. Tarkenton too.

Getting one SB isn't bad, but you always hope for more.

Just putting that out there.

[Fritz]

Guter’s apparent thinking about first rounders lines up with your assessment: you need big play difference-makers, who are mostly athletic freaks, even by NFL standards. So Guter keeps trying to get them in round one, but swings and misses more than (we think?) most GM’s do.

[Deputy Nutz]

I think Van Ness, who might still pan out was a tremendous reach in 2023. he wasn't even a full-time starter in college, you are betting on future potential turning into production and that didn't sit right with me because of how unpolished he was coming out of college, but damn did he have some hotties around him on draft night, including his mom.

[bobblehead]

Guter’s apparent thinking about first rounders lines up with your assessment: you need big play difference-makers, who are mostly athletic freaks, even by NFL standards. So Guter keeps trying to get them in round one, but swings and misses more than (we think?) most GM’s do.

Mckinney is an average athlete but an exceptional football player. Not all difference makers are freaks, some of them are simply good football players. A quick glance at defensive player of the year awards (ignoring the almost always QB MVP). Most were very high picks. We don't get to pick top 10 much with our winning and all. But the big key is most of those guys are freaks who actually know how to play football. Gutes needs to pick great players and stop caring about who might win a decathlon.

[bobblehead]

I think Van Ness, who might still pan out was a tremendous reach in 2023. he wasn't even a full-time starter in college, you are betting on future potential turning into production and that didn't sit right with me because of how unpolished he was coming out of college, but damn did he have some hotties around him on draft night, including his mom.

Exactly my point. We get in position to make such a pick and we go with the freak who hasn't demonstrated that he is a great football player yet. There were guys there who maybe weren't quite Van Ness level athletes, but had proven they can ball out.

[Deputy Nutz]

I get it, sometimes if you really have trust and belief in your coaching staff to maximize the potential you can elevate things like a RAS score to make a determination on potential picks. I am not sure the Packers had the right guys the last two years along the defensive line to do that. Gary who works his ass off in the off season has one clear issue, he gets to upright on his first couple of steps off the snap. He exposes his chest to offensive linemen and he ends of too damn square. Its not speed, its not his get off, his hips are great, and he can practice pass rush sequences better than most, but damn if a high school ball coach can see it, why the hell can't professionals?

[bobblehead]

As i understand it, the defensive tackle crop this year is pretty promising, so maybe they're thinking they can nab a run-stuffing DT in the fourth or fifth round and replace that way. Or maybe they'll got for one earlier to try to upgrade. I can't tell whether Kenny Clark would be better at the nose or the three. I don't know enough about football to know.

I think that is absolutely the case. I just posted in the other thread that I hope a stud DT slips to us as teams think they can add one later. However all that said, I would still have like to retain TJ. I don't like seeing productive players walk. As such I was thrilled to see Myers go.

[bobblehead]

I get it, sometimes if you really have trust and belief in your coaching staff to maximize the potential you can elevate things like a RAS score to make a determination on potential picks. I am not sure the Packers had the right guys the last two years along the defensive line to do that. Gary who works his ass off in the off season has one clear issue, he gets to upright on his first couple of steps off the snap. He exposes his chest to offensive linemen and he ends of too damn square. Its not speed, its not his get off, his hips are great, and he can practice pass rush sequences better than most, but damn if a high school ball coach can see it, why the hell can't professionals?

One thing I have learned in life (and I alluded to in the Romper Room stock thread) is that oftentimes its not the most knowledgeable or the best that rise through the ranks. Its a lot of other factors that get them there. Why are there guys on CNBC talking about putting money in Palantir when there is virtually no chance you will have any reasonable return from now until 4 years out? Because they got those positions based on things OTHER than their ability to analyze a stock. Jim Cramer is a raging moron to be honest. His documented record on his show is so bad he should have been off the air a decade ago. But he screams a lot and makes funny sounds so he gets his own show.

[sharpe1027]

One thing I have learned in life (and I alluded to in the Romper Room stock thread) is that oftentimes its not the most knowledgeable or the best that rise through the ranks. Its a lot of other factors that get them there. Why are there guys on CNBC talking about putting money in Palantir when there is virtually no chance you will have any reasonable return from now until 4 years out? Because they got those positions based on things OTHER than their ability to analyze a stock. Jim Cramer is a raging moron to be honest. His documented record on his show is so bad he should have been off the air a decade ago. But he screams a lot and makes funny sounds so he gets his own show.

Jim Cramer's job isn't to pick winning stocks. It's to get ratings to drive advertising revenue.

[Fritz]

Jim Cramer's job isn't to pick winning stocks. It's to get ratings to drive advertising revenue.

In the same way, a few of the Packerrats have taken up the job of not posting intelligent football commentary, but to say moronic things about certain Packer players and/or coaches, which results in an uptick of responses to said moronory, which drives up clicks.

Sometimes, I take on that role. I take my role as a moronic football commentator very seriously. Just trying to do my part.

Fire Guter now!

[sharpe1027]

In the same way, a few of the Packerrats have taken up the job of not posting intelligent football commentary, but to say moronic things about certain Packer players and/or coaches, which results in an uptick of responses to said moronory, which drives up clicks.

Sometimes, I take on that role. I take my role as a moronic football commentator very seriously. Just trying to do my part.

Fire Guter now!

That's the wonder of the Interwebs. Same thing happens everywhere.

[CaptainKickass]

In the same way, a few of the Packerrats have taken up the job of not posting intelligent football commentary, but to say moronic things about certain Packer players and/or coaches, which results in an uptick of responses to said moronory, which drives up clicks.

Sometimes, I take on that role. I take my role as a moronic football commentator very seriously. Just trying to do my part.

Fire Guter now!



https://youtu.be/RlC5DEp2EOQ

[bobblehead]

Jim Cramer's job isn't to pick winning stocks. It's to get ratings to drive advertising revenue.

He was once a hedgefund manager. He should have the investing knowledge to do both. And end of the day if you are giving bad advice on a regular basis I would hope people would stop watching you. But Jim has connections. He did then and he does now, therefore he keeps his own show.

[sharpe1027]

He was once a hedgefund manager. He should have the investing knowledge to do both. And end of the day if you are giving bad advice on a regular basis I would hope people would stop watching you. But Jim has connections. He did then and he does now, therefore he keeps his own show.

He doesn't keep his show unless he's bringing in ad revenue. In that sense he's qualified for his job. Any assumptions about whether or not he needs to show good results with his advice only matter in that context

He's not getting paid for his advice by anyone watching his show.

[bobblehead]

He doesn't keep his show unless he's bringing in ad revenue. In that sense he's qualified for his job. Any assumptions about whether or not he needs to show good results with his advice only matter in that context

He's not getting paid for his advice by anyone watching his show.

I'll agree to disagree. When your show is based on the premise that he is giving you advice on investing and even as specific as individual stocks I personally think its incredibly irresponsible to knowingly suck at it. He is being billed as an expert. We aren't talking fantasy football advice here, we are talking about people who are banking some portion of their retirement funds and such on his advice.

Admittedly its a sore spot with me because despite how I come across sometimes I want people to succeed and thrive in life, not be conned into pissing their money away. Its why I go on a tirade when I hear a politician say things like "we can't trust peoples retirement dollars to the risky stock market." If I had a dollar for everytime I told people, "no, that stock is so wildly overvalued its not a good buy" only to have them lose money by ignoring me because a guy like Cramer said "BUY BUY" much louder...well, I'd have at least a 20 on me right now.

[sharpe1027]

I'll agree to disagree. When your show is based on the premise that he is giving you advice on investing and even as specific as individual stocks I personally think its incredibly irresponsible to knowingly suck at it. He is being billed as an expert. We aren't talking fantasy football advice here, we are talking about people who are banking some portion of their retirement funds and such on his advice.

Admittedly its a sore spot with me because despite how I come across sometimes I want people to succeed and thrive in life, not be conned into pissing their money away. Its why I go on a tirade when I hear a politician say things like "we can't trust peoples retirement dollars to the risky stock market." If I had a dollar for everytime I told people, "no, that stock is so wildly overvalued its not a good buy" only to have them lose money by ignoring me because a guy like Cramer said "BUY BUY" much louder...well, I'd have at least a 20 on me right now.

I'm not disagreeing with most of what you're saying. I think we're talking past each other. I'm not saying it's responsible or that I have any respect for what he does. I also think he offers terrible advice.

You say his job requires him to provide accurate investment advice to be qualified. I say his job is a TV personality that makes money for his employer, and that doesn't require accurate investment advice.

I am willing to bet his employer agrees with me.

[Fritz]

I'm not disagreeing with most of what you're saying. I think we're talking past each other. I'm not saying it's responsible or that I have any respect for what he does. I also think he offers terrible advice.

You say his job requires him to provide accurate investment advice to be qualified. I say his job is a TV personality that makes money for his employer, and that doesn't require accurate investment advice.

I am willing to bet his employer agrees with me.

Make Jim Cramer the next ESPN draft expert! He won’t have to know what he’s talking about; he just has to appear that he knows what he’s talking about.

[sharpe1027]

Make Jim Cramer the next ESPN draft expert! He won’t have to know what he’s talking about; he just has to appear that he knows what he’s talking about.

Yes. Exactly.

[Patler]

He's (Jim Cramer) not getting paid for his advice by anyone watching his show.

Actually, he is.

CNBC went all in on Jim Cramer a few years back and now sells memberships to their investment club, which is basically Just more Jim Cramer content. Cramer ended the relationships he had had previously with other pay services and is now exclusively with CNBC, as I understand it. CNBC members get exclusive access to the trades made in his charitable trust, daily commentary from him on the market, etc. They hold periodic online meetings etc.

When it started, they offered free access for a limited time. Out of curiosity, I signed up for the free period, in large part just to see what he actually owned in his charitable trust at the time. As I suspected, the "exclusive" content from Cramer wasn't much more than a mega-dose of what he does for free every day on CNBC. He wasn't anymore insightful or accurate and basically talked up the same stocks.

I've never understood the fascination so many have in what he has to say.

[MadtownPacker]

I'll agree to disagree. When your show is based on the premise that he is giving you advice on investing and even as specific as individual stocks I personally think its incredibly irresponsible to knowingly suck at it. He is being billed as an expert. We aren't talking fantasy football advice here, we are talking about people who are banking some portion of their retirement funds and such on his advice.

Admittedly it’s a sore spot with me because despite how I come across sometimes I want people to succeed and thrive in life, not be conned into pissing their money away. It’s why I go on a tirade when I hear a politician say things like "we can't trust peoples retirement dollars to the risky stock market." If I had a dollar for everytime I told people, "no, that stock is so wildly overvalued its not a good buy" only to have them lose money by ignoring me because a guy like Cramer said "BUY BUY" much louder...well, I'd have at least a 20 on me right now.
Can you just explain to me why man????

[sharpe1027]

Actually, he is.

CNBC went all in on Jim Cramer a few years back and now sells memberships to their investment club, which is basically Just more Jim Cramer content. Cramer ended the relationships he had had previously with other pay services and is now exclusively with CNBC, as I understand it. CNBC members get exclusive access to the trades made in his charitable trust, daily commentary from him on the market, etc. They hold periodic online meetings etc.

When it started, they offered free access for a limited time. Out of curiosity, I signed up for the free period, in large part just to see what he actually owned in his charitable trust at the time. As I suspected, the "exclusive" content from Cramer wasn't much more than a mega-dose of what he does for free every day on CNBC. He wasn't anymore insightful or accurate and basically talked up the same stocks.

I've never understood the fascination so many have in what he has to say.

Interesting, I'd still go back to the original point. If he's making CNBC money with the investment club, that's the objective measurement of his qualifications. If he's giving terrible investment advice while doing so, that just means people are stupid. It doesn't mean he's only got the job because of his connections.

[Bretsky]

In the same way, a few of the Packerrats have taken up the job of not posting intelligent football commentary, but to say moronic things about certain Packer players and/or coaches, which results in an uptick of responses to said moronory, which drives up clicks.

Sometimes, I take on that role. I take my role as a moronic football commentator very seriously. Just trying to do my part.

Fire Guter now!



How many All Pro's has Gute drafted ? Gamechangers ? How many 1st round draft picks has he used on the DL and LB position? Did they take a step forward or backwards last year?

I'm fine with Gute; but I'm not crowning him until he wins a Super Bowl. Are we moving in the right direction ? It's a curious question. Does taking high RAS players over players with a better football pedigree work ? Does stacking a roster with young guys with little value for veteran leadership work ?

I am just not sure this team is moving in the right direction. I'm just not sure anymore.

[Spaulding]

How many All Pro's has Gute drafted ? Gamechangers ? How many 1st round draft picks has he used on the DL and LB position? Did they take a step forward or backwards last year?

I'm fine with Gute; but I'm not crowning him until he wins a Super Bowl. Are we moving in the right direction ? It's a curious question. Does taking high RAS players over players with a better football pedigree work ? Does stacking a roster with young guys with little value for veteran leadership work ?

I am just not sure this team is moving in the right direction. I'm just not sure anymore.

Fair questions. Much is in the eye of the beholder and the results on the field. Since Gute has been GM the team starting with the 2018 draft I see his results as the following:

2018 - minus draft (Alexander and not much more)
2019 - plus draft (Gary, Jenkins and Savage)
2020 - ??? depending on how Love pans out (at best a homerun and at worst an average draft)
2021 - average draft (Myers. Stokes, Slaton, McDuffie)
2022 - homerun (Walker, Wyatt, Watkins, Tom, Rhyan, Doubs, Engabare)
2023 - homerun (Van Ness, Musgrave, Reed, Kraft, Wooden, Wicks, Brooks, Valentine)
2024 - ???? depending on how Morgan turns out as Cooper and Williams look great and too early to know what we have with Bullard, Monk, Hopper, etc.

Seems that he swings for the fences in round 1 with RAS upside and rarely hits but that his second and third day drafting is better than most.

Combine his overall decent drafting and willingness to use FA more than Thompson to plug holes and I like what I see. Far from perfect but if you grade him against the other 31 GM's he does shine a little more favorable.

[bobblehead]

Can you just explain to me why man????

I'm happy to except:

I covered a lot.....which part?

[MadtownPacker]

I'm happy to except:

I covered a lot.....which part?
You started derailing the thread then crossed the line, again, bringing up politicians. Why when you know better is my question????

Another is WHY are you putting me in a shitty spot where I’m going to have to ban you right before the draft?

[Fritz]

Fair questions. Much is in the eye of the beholder and the results on the field. Since Gute has been GM the team starting with the 2018 draft I see his results as the following:

2018 - minus draft (Alexander and not much more)
2019 - plus draft (Gary, Jenkins and Savage)
2020 - ??? depending on how Love pans out (at best a homerun and at worst an average draft)
2021 - average draft (Myers. Stokes, Slaton, McDuffie)
2022 - homerun (Walker, Wyatt, Watkins, Tom, Rhyan, Doubs, Engabare)
2023 - homerun (Van Ness, Musgrave, Reed, Kraft, Wooden, Wicks, Brooks, Valentine)
2024 - ???? depending on how Morgan turns out as Cooper and Williams look great and too early to know what we have with Bullard, Monk, Hopper, etc.

Seems that he swings for the fences in round 1 with RAS upside and rarely hits but that his second and third day drafting is better than most.

Combine his overall decent drafting and willingness to use FA more than Thompson to plug holes and I like what I see. Far from perfect but if you grade him against the other 31 GM's he does shine a little more favorable.

I got stuck when you listed Savage as part of a "plus" draft. Darnell Savage?

[bobblehead]

You started derailing the thread then crossed the line, again, bringing up politicians. Why when you know better is my question????

Another is WHY are you putting me in a shitty spot where I’m going to have to ban you right before the draft?

Ok. I feel like you played a little 6 degrees to kevin bacon there, but I did make a general reference to "politicians". I honestly didn't even give it a thought about it being a political statement or position, but rules are rules.

[Spaulding]

I got stuck when you listed Savage as part of a "plus" draft. Darnell Savage?

I included Savage only because he was a starter for us (which defines drafts even if in the end disappointing after showing flashes in 2020) and still managed to garner a 3yr 21million dollar second contract.

[Fritz]

I understand - different standards for what a "successful" pick is. For me, the fact that they traded up to get him, and that he ended up being a pretty "meh" safety whose second contract was not for all that much, tells me that, as a first-round pick, he was a bust. But I get what you're saying.

[Spaulding]

Definitely a "bust" from that standpoint for a costly first round pick and so probably should have omitted him and only listed Gary (who has his own challenges but is at least a solid starter) and Jenkins (whose a stud OL). As for a rating of Gute, I'd think a 7 out of 10 seems about right. Some great seasons but no NFC championship games or owl. So could be better but obviously far worse (see Jets, Browns, Dolphins, Saints, Titans, Colts, Jagquars, etc.).

[Patler]

Darnell Savage is far from a first round bust. In 6 seasons he has played in 85 games and has started 82 of them. Not every first-round pick turns into an All-Pro. The slot following Savage, the Eagles took Andre Dillard, who has started just 19 games in six seasons.

[Spaulding]

Darnell Savage is far from a first round bust. In 6 seasons he has played in 85 games and has started 82 of them. Not every first-round pick turns into an All-Pro. The slot following Savage, the Eagles took Andre Dillard, who has started just 19 games in six seasons.

Excellent point Patler. Unfortunately for Darnell is that the fanbase wanted Nick Collins 2.0 and got an average starter. In the end though I guess you win with the latter and so I probably shouldn't bitch :)

[Bretsky]

Darnell Savage is far from a first round bust. In 6 seasons he has played in 85 games and has started 82 of them. Not every first-round pick turns into an All-Pro. The slot following Savage, the Eagles took Andre Dillard, who has started just 19 games in six seasons.

Bust he is not

Disappointment he is

And didn't Gouchebag piss away an additional draft pick to more up and get him, or am I wrong on that one. Going off memory and I'm getting too old

[Patler]

Bust he is not

Disappointment he is

And didn't Gouchebag piss away an additional draft pick to more up and get him, or am I wrong on that one. Going off memory and I'm getting too old

Yup, he traded the Packers 1st (#30) and two fourths to move up to take Savage. Sounds like a lot in view of the Packers history with 4th round picks, but I think you have to look at it in the context of the perceived strength of that draft class. As I recall it was not seen as a very deep draft and lots of trades were made.

[Patler]

Savage became a disappointment because he never took that second step that you hope to see in players 2nd or 3rd seasons. He seemed like he had potential in his first two seasons, and with a step up he would be darn good, but that step never came.

Fans were anxious for a game-changer at safety after the anticipation felt for Haha Clinton-Dix and his ultimate flop. Unfortunately, Savage didn't become that game-changer, so the disappointment grew. But Savage has proven to be a starting-caliber DB, just not a great one.

[call_me_ishmael]

HHCD was so weird. He went from all-pro to traded for nothing very quickly. I always wondered what happened there. He was a stud the first few years.

[Jaire]

I think we're forgetting 2020. Gute did a great job when the cupboard was empty. That really was the Packers year. If not for an insanely stacked (esp front seven) TB team, it was Green Bay's year.

As it was, the Pack almost pulled it off; just a couple bad plays and coaching calls, and I'm not even talking about the end game. That front seven was historically great imo: just watch how they completely ragdolled KC in the SB.

That said his drafting has been decent but Phili has been killing the draft and FA for a few years now. I expect the offense to rebound after last year and the D was the best in a decade. Like where it's headed.