Hawk vs Simms

[b bulldog]

Sundays game will have two of the top rookie LB prospects from the draft playing against each other. Simms has looked real aggressive and has a mean streak and Hawk has been looking better. I think both will be fine players but Simms could really explode in Marinelli's D, ala Derrick Brooks.

[RashanGary]

Good point, he's in a perfect scheme for a fast WLB. Also, he's got a really strong DL to keep blockers off of him.

I think DTW is set up really well to use Simms strengths and hide his weaknesses.

It'll be fun to watch. I think Hawk is better though. Nobody has run or passed his direction effectively. I'm curious to see how well Simms shuts his side down or is he just a product of being fed tackles like Barnett. We'll see tomorrow.

[mraynrand]

Ernie Sims plays for the Lions. Chris Simms plays for the Bucs. And that's a real fresh POV on Sims. I've never heard the theory that he might be the 'Derrick Brooks' of the Detroit Lions, oh, except the 10,000 times they pulled out this warmed over garbage during the draft. Yawn. Maybe you should just stick to ripping on Favre - you're better at that.

[vince]

Ernie Sims plays for the Lions. Chris Simms plays for the Bucs. And that's a real fresh POV on Sims. I've never heard the theory that he might be the 'Derrick Brooks' of the Detroit Lions, oh, except the 10,000 times they pulled out this warmed over garbage during the draft. Yawn. Maybe you should just stick to ripping on Favre - you're better at that.
Both are studs... Sims has a history of concussions if I'm not mistaken though, which could affect his career over time.

[wist43]

They're pretty equal at this point, but Sims probably has an advantage b/c he plays in a better system on a better overall defense.

Assuming that this coaching staff will be fired w/in a couple of years, I like Hawk's long term upside. If by some miracle this coaching staff survives more than two years, then Hawks numbers will be stunted and the advantage would have to go to Sims.

[RashanGary]

They're pretty equal at this point, but Sims probably has an advantage b/c he plays in a better system on a better overall defense.

Assuming that this coaching staff will be fired w/in a couple of years, I like Hawk's long term upside. If by some miracle this coaching staff survives more than two years, then Hawks numbers will be stunted and the advantage would have to go to Sims.

I'd laugh but it's not funny.

[Lurker64]

Both are studs... Sims has a history of concussions if I'm not mistaken though, which could affect his career over time.

Every time you get a concussion, the next one's easier to get. I'm afraid (because you can never in good conscience wish a player ill) that Sims won't have a particularly long career given the way he plays.

[mmmdk]

Yes, both Hawk & Simms will be studs - I like Hawk better, he's just a natural.

About the Packer defensive coaches; it was quite a debacle went Bates left and apart from W.Moss I don't like any of the def. coaches much. As Wist gleefully points out, they could be gone within 2 years. This is just not good news for this defense. Ever changing of position coaches or coordinators doesn't add to building a confidence level amongst the players.

[Patler]

I'm not saying there aren't exceptions, but typically, linebackers as small as Simms don't have long careers. They get caught up among the big bodies of the players in the two lines much too often, and it generally costs them in long term health. Sims is short even for a safety, and only as heavy as the bigger safeties. He's not much heavier than Collins.

[b bulldog]

Tomorrows game will be a showcase for both to show how they are doing. Sorry if I put two mm's instead of the one for Sims. Mrayrand, you must be one of those who kept saying that Hawk is the most NFL ready D player in the draft.

[RashanGary]

Packers going right at Sims adn shredding him.

There is no comparison at this point in the game. Sims looks like a dud. He's getting burned like Poppinga.

[RashanGary]

Green just ran him over. I havn't seen Hawk get bitch slapped like that in 6 games. Sims just got ran over like Barnett often does.

[b bulldog]

Sims was overshadowed all day long by Hawk. Hawk keeps looking better and better.

[Iron Mike]

Sims was overshadowed all day long by Hawk. Hawk keeps looking better and better.

Agreed. Hawk looked pretty awesome on the delayed blitz! :mrgreen:

[b bulldog]

I was more impressed with his openfield tackling and keeping containment.

[The Leaper]

No contest. Hawk is a better player than Sims, and proved it today. Sims plays on a better defense behind a massive DL...and Hawk is still more of a playmaker, especially against the pass.

I'm sorry Wist, but you must not be seeing the same players as I am if you think these guys are even. The few times I saw Sims today, he was usually shaking his head trying to get the cobwebs out after someone on offense ran over him.

[Iron Mike]

I was more impressed with his openfield tackling and keeping containment.

Have you forgotten how many times last year we blitzed a LB or DB and they just couldn't get there in time?

[b bulldog]

hAWK LOOKS MUCH MORE EXPLOSIVE THAN sIMS DID IMO.

[the_idle_threat]

Sims is very talented, but concussions breed more concussions. He rattled his marble 8 times in college. I don't wish it upon him or anything, but I don't see a long career for him. Another Millen 1st rounder.

[Lurker64]

The few times I saw Sims today, he was usually shaking his head trying to get the cobwebs out after someone on offense ran over him.

That was actually a combination of the offense and Sims's injury history. The man's got a lot of cobwebs up there, give him a break.

[Bretsky]

Tomorrows game will be a showcase for both to show how they are doing. Sorry if I put two mm's instead of the one for Sims. Mrayrand, you must be one of those who kept saying that Hawk is the most NFL ready D player in the draft.

Who was it that said Hawk was the most NFL ready Defensive player in the draft ? Those guys must have been pretty smart :wink:

Hawk was the much better LB today; I still don't know another defensive player that will be better as a rookie this year.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Bottom line: Hawk is going to be a very good pro. I don't know where Sims will be, but Hawk will be a damn good LB. Anybody who can't see that has a bias or an agenda.

[Iron Mike]

Bottom line: Hawk is going to be a very good pro. I don't know where Sims will be, but Hawk will be a damn good LB. Anybody who can't see that has a bias or an agenda.

Or a Bear Troll. :twisted:

[b bulldog]

Hawk is playing much better but as of now, DeMaco Ryans is playing the best of all the defensive R's and Hawk is probably second in terms of LB.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Hawk is playing much better but as of now, DeMaco Ryans is playing the best of all the defensive R's and Hawk is probably second in terms of LB.

Too funny! And you know this how? I'm sure you've been riveted to the Texans three blowout losses. Ryans has 0 sacks, 0 pass deflections, 0 forced fumbles, and 0 fumble recoveries for a defense that gave up 500 yards (240 yards rushing) in week 3, 515 yards in week 2, and 450 yards in week 1.

[b bulldog]

A lb's job is to make tackles, sorry if your player that your so fond of isn't leading the rookie class of LB's in tackles.

[b bulldog]

lets see here, if you don't judge a lb by his tackles made, what should we judge them by?

[b bulldog]

10 tackles a game is good enough for me and probably most GM's throughout the league, I guess it is quite funny, isn't it?

[HarveyWallbangers]

I don't judge them by either. I haven't seen Ryans, so I couldn't tell you who is better. I doubt you have either. Ryans plays MLB. He should have more tackles than a WLB. He's also made 0 sacks, pass deflections, turnover plays for a defense that is giving up 500 yards/game (thus, one that's on the field a lot--which gives their MLB a bunch more plays to make meaningless tackles).

[b bulldog]

being a Mario fan, I've seen two of their games and I think he has a decent shot (Ryans) to be the defensive R of the year. A MLB's job is to tackle, period!

[Partial]

lets see here, if you don't judge a lb by his tackles made, what should we judge them by?

That logic makes Barnett a top 2 or 3 linebacker in the league. Foolish!

[Deputy Nutz]

10 tackles a game is good enough for me and probably most GM's throughout the league, I guess it is quite funny, isn't it?

Barnett averaged 10 tackles a game last year and I thought he wasn't good enough.

anyways, you're still bitter about the rivalry between Hawk and Williams, and now that Williams has fallen flat on his face you have to come up with other rookies to compare Hawk to. Whatever.

[b bulldog]

Hawk's sack was a delayed blitz, he didn't beat anyone and he has one or two passes defensed, as a wekside backer, he should be more involved in the coverage aspect of the game and usually those players(OLB) afre used more on blitzing situations. Pretty funny, huh?

[Bretsky]

How have you seen two of the Texan games ? Do you have the NFL Package ?

No way you can use tackles as the only criteria for who is having a better season. Think about that for your criteria. Some of the worst MLB's in the game would be having a better season than some of the best OLB's.

B

[b bulldog]

Look back at my posts before the draft occurred, I st6ated that Mario will probably take a year and a half to become a gamechanging DE. I did think he would do more than he has in three games but I did state on numerous occassions that it will take him a year and a half imo. Hawk has played better so far but Ryans has played the best for all R LB's.

[Bretsky]

Hawk's sack was a delayed blitz, he didn't beat anyone and he has one or two passes defensed, as a wekside backer, he should be more involved in the coverage aspect of the game and usually those players(OLB) afre used more on blitzing situations. Pretty funny, huh?


You still have to execute when to shoot the gap and be fast enough to get there.



B

[Deputy Nutz]

Hawk's sack was a delayed blitz, he didn't beat anyone and he has one or two passes defensed, as a wekside backer, he should be more involved in the coverage aspect of the game and usually those players(OLB) afre used more on blitzing situations. Pretty funny, huh?

Hawk has been a complete Don in coverage, especially in open space, giving up a catch to a running back that gains 0, 1, 2, 0r 3 yards are positive plays for linebackers, thats what you look for more than passes defensed. I hate that stat anyways. What is considered a pass defensed anyways, and how is it judged? Besides isn't it better that your coverage is so tight that the QB doesn't even challenge your coverage?

[Bretsky]

Look back at my posts before the draft occurred, I st6ated that Mario will probably take a year and a half to become a gamechanging DE. I did think he would do more than he has in three games but I did state on numerous occassions that it will take him a year and a half imo. Hawk has played better so far but Ryans has played the best for all R LB's.



Yes, you said that; you and Nick Collins...aka...Greg Jennings also had a detailed bet in which you argued Mario would be more productive than Hawk over the course of their rookie seasons.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Hawk's sack was a delayed blitz, he didn't beat anyone and he has one or two passes defensed, as a wekside backer, he should be more involved in the coverage aspect of the game and usually those players(OLB) afre used more on blitzing situations. Pretty funny, huh?

Better to have him covering people and not giving up completions (and get zero "stats" from this) than have him pad his stats by giving up completions and making the tackle (ala Poppinga). I haven't seen him miss tackles. I haven't seen him give up completions. I even saw him make an instinctive play on the delayed blitz today. That looked like a read blitz to me. It worked.

[MasonCrosby]

hawk was a safe pick with the number 5 selection that would have an impact this season and he has helped shore up the linebacking corps...

[b bulldog]

I agree with you that it is a worthless stat. Tackles for MLB's are very important while sacks, pressures and coverage skills are more likely to be inked with OLB's.

[Deputy Nutz]

How have you seen two of the Texan games ? Do you have the NFL Package ?

No way you can use tackles as the only criteria for who is having a better season. Think about that for your criteria. Some of the worst MLB's in the game would be having a better season than some of the best OLB's.

B

Besides, teams are already considering Hawk not only the best linebacker on the Packers, but also their best playmaker. In my own estimation, teams are running the ball 75% of the time away from Hawk and to the strong side. Once Hawk hits his stride, and feels completely comfortable during game days, he is going to be a damn maniac on the field, Brian Urlacher? Forget about it!

[b bulldog]

Total delayed blitz as he usually did at OSU. Watch the ND game from last year, when he tries to physically dominate a blocker he gets stoned, his best advantage is his speed, hence delayed blitzing is his best way to get to the QB.

[Partial]

How have you seen two of the Texan games ? Do you have the NFL Package ?

No way you can use tackles as the only criteria for who is having a better season. Think about that for your criteria. Some of the worst MLB's in the game would be having a better season than some of the best OLB's.

B

Besides, teams are already considering Hawk not only the best linebacker on the Packers, but also their best playmaker. In my own estimation, teams are running the ball 75% of the time away from Hawk and to the strong side. Once Hawk hits his stride, and feels completely comfortable during game days, he is going to be a damn maniac on the field, Brian Urlacher? Forget about it!

If his impact on the game is as great as Urlachers, that would be amazing.

[b bulldog]

eSTIMATION THAT i DON'T AGREE WITH BECAUSE HE HAS made no where near the plays needed to make an O run away from him. We can agree to disagree but most plays go to the strong side of the field which DOES take AJ out of a certain percenmtage of all the O plays.

[b bulldog]

Hawk is good but he doesn't have what Urlacher has. Even as a R, Urlacher was eye opening from day one and was very dominant. Urlacher is a special player.

[gbpackfan]

Did Simms even play today. Yes? Hmmm, I didnt even notice him out on the field. Hawk easily won the battle of 1st round LBs today.

[Partial]

Hawk is good but he doesn't have what Urlacher has. Even as a R, Urlacher was eye opening from day one and was very dominant. Urlacher is a special player.

His impact was devestating those first few games. He sat on that bench so well!

[Deputy Nutz]

Hawk is good but he doesn't have what Urlacher has. Even as a R, Urlacher was eye opening from day one and was very dominant. Urlacher is a special player.

Urlacher didn't even start the first 8 games his rookie year. Hawk has everything Urlacher has, except the herpes that Brian got from sticking it in Paris Hilton.

Speed? both have it

Physical play? Hawk is probably more physical at this point in his career than Urlacher was. Even now, if blockers get into Urlacher he is finished, he disengages from blocks about as well as Barnett does. while you constantly see Hawk attack blockers at the point of attack making sure to maintain his responsiblities and turn the play back into the pursuit.

Coverage skills? both excell at it, Hawk has more skill at this point in his career than Urlacher at this point.

Try to argue this point all you want Bulldog, but you are wrong. Go back and look at Urlacher's rookie stats and you will be suprised.

[Partial]

Hawk is good but he doesn't have what Urlacher has. Even as a R, Urlacher was eye opening from day one and was very dominant. Urlacher is a special player.

Urlacher didn't even start the first 8 games his rookie year. Hawk has everything Urlacher has, except the herpes that Brian got from sticking it in Paris Hilton.

Speed? both have it

Physical play? Hawk is probably more physical at this point in his career than Urlacher was. Even now, if blockers get into Urlacher he is finished, he disengages from blocks about as well as Barnett does. while you constantly see Hawk attack blockers at the point of attack making sure to maintain his responsiblities and turn the play back into the pursuit.

Coverage skills? both excell at it, Hawk has more skill at this point in his career than Urlacher at this point.

Try to argue this point all you want Bulldog, but you are wrong. Go back and look at Urlacher's rookie stats and you will be suprised.

I doubt he'll ever be as skilled at blitzing as Urlacher because he is about 20 pounds heavier and 3 inches taller.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Urlacher was pretty damn good from the start. Hawk doesn't have to be Urlacher to be damn good or to be the right pick for us. Hawk ain't going to be Urlacher, but Ryans isn't going to be Ray Lewis, Simms isn't going to be Derrick Brooks, and Mario Williams isn't going to be Julius Peppers either.

[Deputy Nutz]

Urlacher was pretty damn good from the start. Hawk doesn't have to be Urlacher to be damn good or to be the right pick for us. Hawk ain't going to be Urlacher, but Ryans isn't going to be Ray Lewis, Simms isn't going to be Derrick Brooks, and Mario Williams isn't going to be Julius Peppers either.

Well, who is Bobby Carpenter not going to be? He isn't even on the active roster in Dallas.

[MJZiggy]

In that case he might not be anybody... :razz:

[b bulldog]

I agree with the player comparisons and it isn't fair to compare these youngsters to these dominant, vet players although where all of these have been drafted, they should spend half of their Feb's in Hawaii.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Vernon Davis broke his leg today. Before that, he hadn't done squat. He did have a 31 yard TD the first game, but also cost the 49ers dearly with a fumble in his own territory that game. Outside of the 31 yard TD, he had 6 receiving yards in the 3 games.

[b bulldog]

I just remember Urlacher coming into Lambeau as a R and seeing his speed and his tackling ability. Hawk may have good stop watch speed but Urlacher's football speed is awesome. nUTZ, WE'LL SEE HOW MANY PROBOWLS the both of them make and we'll than get to judge how great each player is.

[b bulldog]

aS A r, 124 tackles, 8 sacks and 2 ints and I think he has been to the probowl every year of his career, not totally sure but I think so.

[RashanGary]

Yes, you said that; you and Nick Collins...aka...Greg Jennings also had a detailed bet in which you argued Mario would be more productive than Hawk over the course of their rookie seasons.

Thanks for remembering that B...I tried to look it up but couldn't find it. We worked out the details and everything.

bulldog was so obsessed w/ Williams and now Williams might not even get 3 sacks. LOL...

Hawk will probably have more sacks. No comparisson.

That sack by Hawk was not only explosive and quick, but his grip was always something I was in awe of when wathcing his tape. When he gets a hold of somebody, he doesn't let go. When he tackled drummond on teh sideline on a punt, it looked like he was going to rip his torso from his legs.

[RashanGary]

Hawk has done nothing but look big in everything he does. He's stepped onto the field in the NFL and has done everything he did at OSU. He gets sacks, he sheds blocks, he is always in position to make the play. He rips guys mercifully to the ground in a way that I've never seen in my years of watching the Packers. He's a beast in everything he's done.

The guy is the best LB in this draft bar none. Demeco Ryans is a damn good player but he doens't compare to Hawk at all. Ryans can make plays, he'll make tackles. Hawk does that too but Hawk also has a kung foo grip with amazing strength that allows him to be the differnece maker that Ryans or Sims will never be.

I've never seen Hawk get bitch slapped. He's played 5 or 6 full games of tape and he's always looked stronger than his opponent.

Sims gets rag dolled. I'm sure Ryans does to. The differencne between a guy who gets the job done and a playmaker can be defined as Ryans vs Hawk. Simple as that. No arguement.

I haven't even seen Ryans play in the NFL but I know from his college tape taht he never took over games. He is in the right spot, he makes the tackle. Hawk beats down the opponent. He did it at OSU and he's doing it here in the NFL.

[Partial]

Hawk does that too but Hawk also has a kung foo grip with amazing strength that allows him to be the differnece maker that Ryans or Sims will never be.

Don't you think its a bit premature for that declaration? There have been plenty of great linebackers who weren't top 5 picks, let alone even starters their first year in the league. Joey Porter is a prime example of this.