McGinn on Schottenheimer (very good article)

[BananaMan]

Mike McCarthy's curious decision to hire Kurt Schottenheimer as secondary coach looks even worse now than it did eight months ago.

Schottenheimer undoubtedly could lecture to a group of college coaches at a football clinic and teach most of them new ideas on defense. He has spent a lifetime in the business under a host of distinguished coaches, including Bill Arnsparger, Lou Holtz and his brother, Marty.

His knowledge of the game led him to positions as defensive coordinator in the National Football League at Kansas City, Washington and Detroit. Gunther Cunningham hired him as his coordinator with the Chiefs from 1999-2000, his brother brought him to Washington in '01, and both Marty Mornhinweg and Steve Mariucci had him for a year with the Lions from 2002-'03.

On Jan. 31, McCarthy praised Schottenheimer's vast experience and ability to work well with coordinator Bob Sanders when he announced his hiring.

Nevertheless, the Green Bay Packers deserved better. Their secondary under Schottenheimer's direction in 2004 had a horrible season and, if the first two games of 2006 are any indication, the unit is headed right back into the gutter after a respectable 2005, when Schottenheimer was in St. Louis.

Personnel people who have been looking at the Packers' defense since the start of the exhibition season have remarked about how poorly coached the secondary looks.

One scout keeps talking about the lousy tackling. Another said the Packers' defensive backs generally were close in coverage last season, but now receivers have been more wide open on a consistent basis. Breakdowns are occurring too often.

The failure of several young players to develop this summer was a tip-off that something was amiss. The debacle on Monday night in Cincinnati, when Carson Palmer and his receivers annihilated the Packers, exposed the starting unit.

Rex Grossman and his passing attack had been missing in action all summer until the Chicago Bears got to Lambeau Field on opening day.

Then strong safety Marquand Manuel blew a coverage on the first series and let Bernard Berrian loose 5 yards behind him for a deflating long touchdown. Muhsin Muhammad, who at 33 has seen better days, got open just about whenever he wanted against cornerbacks Al Harris and Charles Woodson. And Grossman picked the secondary apart.

Last Sunday against New Orleans, free safety Nick Collins looked absolutely pathetic giving up long bombs to a broken-down tight end and a rookie wide receiver from Hofstra. Nickel back Ahmad Carroll was skewered for a 26-yard touchdown by a No. 3 wide receiver on a slant-and-go route that wasn't even executed all that well.
Never say never

Never in my wildest dreams did it seem possible that a secondary could possibly be as dysfunctional as the one the Packers fielded in 2004. Never say never.

In two games, the Packers have allowed 10 passes of 20 yards or more, putting them on pace for 60. Two years ago they allowed 61, which was 19 more than their four-year average from 2000-'03.

The opponents' passer rating of 99.1 in 2004 shattered the club record of 86.1 set by Scooter McLean's outfit in '58. In two games, the opponents' rating is 97.1.

One wonders if McCarthy even bothered to examine just how inept the Packers' pass defense was two years ago before hiring Schottenheimer from among the many qualified coaches he could have selected.

The No. 25 ranking in passing yards allowed, worst in Green Bay since the merger in 1970. The 37 touchdown passes in 17 games, another club record. The team record for fewest interceptions with eight. The amazingly high totals of 26 penalties and 15 touchdown passes charged to the starting cornerbacks, Harris and Carroll. And the 7 1/2 touchdown passes and 19 plays of 20 yards or more, both astonishingly horrid numbers, allowed by the starting safeties, Darren Sharper and Mark Roman.

From that season, McCarthy pretty much knew only two players, Harris and Carroll, would be returning this year. He also had decided to rehire Lionel Washington, who was assisting with the defensive backs since 1999.

It is known that McCarthy interviewed 63-year-old Larry Marmie, who was out as defensive coordinator in St. Louis, for the secondary job. It isn't known if he interviewed anybody else.

Schottenheimer, who will turn 57 next Sunday, had been with Marmie in St. Louis as secondary coach. Mike Sherman, an old friend dating to their days on staff at Tulane, fired Schottenheimer shortly after the '04 season.

The relationship between McCarthy and Schottenheimer went back to 1993, when Marty Schottenheimer gave McCarthy his first job in the NFL. McCarthy and Kurt Schottenheimer worked side-by-side for six years in Kansas City.

We'll never know for sure if McCarthy hired Schottenheimer as a favor to Marty Schottenheimer or to give a friend a job. But based on what happened in Green Bay in '04 and in St. Louis in '05, there was little reason to bring him back.

Look at '04, when not one player in the secondary had a good year and most players had brutal years. Sharper easily had his worst season since '99. Roman was horrendous. The draft choices, Carroll and Joey Thomas, brawled outside a meeting room and flopped on the field.

Yes, the Rams' secondary was hit hard by injury last year. But Schottenheimer also played a major role in what a long-time observer called the team's worst tackling secondary since the move to St. Louis in 1995.

The Rams' personnel department had little regard for Schottenheimer's ability as an evaluator, but coach Mike Martz had final say. When the Rams signed safety Michael Hawthorne in April and traded for cornerback Chris Johnson in September, Martz said he relied heavily on Schottenheimer's recommendations based on having coached them.

Hawthorne, according to one member of the Rams' staff, "couldn't play a lick" and was cut shortly after starting the first five games. Johnson played a lot on passing downs and proved worthless, just as he had been in Green Bay.

Several sources said Schottenheimer also played an instrumental role in the Packers' selection of Thomas in the third round. A bust, Thomas currently is on the street.
Laid-back, passive style

Some people who have played for or worked with Schottenheimer describe his style of coaching as laid-back and passive. "He's just not a DB coach," one source said. "You can tell he's not really a DB guy. The good ones are more passionate and direct."

It's interesting that when Marty Schottenheimer gave his brother his first NFL job it was as a special-teams coach, a position that he held for eight years. His only NFL experience as a secondary coach before coming to Green Bay was four years in Kansas City. His final three years at the collegiate level were spent coaching linebackers.

Of course, successful assistants come from all backgrounds. But it's also interesting that possibly the Packers' most impressive position coach, wide receivers coach Jimmy Robinson, not only played wide receiver in the NFL for six years but also has done nothing but coach NFL wide receivers for 17 years.

McCarthy could have retained Joe Baker, the Packers' secondary coach in '05, with whom he had coached with in New Orleans from 2000-'04, but decided against it. Under Baker, who now is quality control coach in St. Louis, Harris and Carroll, even Roman, displayed improvement. And Collins, regarded as a mental risk by some teams, had remarkably few blown assignments and made the all-rookie team.

Secondary coaches have two primary functions. To me, the most important is the day-to-day contact with players involving technique, attitude and standards, both for the present and future. Less important is the ability to contribute in a meaningful way to the scheme and game plan.

Maybe McCarthy hired Schottenheimer for his wisdom with X's and O's. By most definitions, he isn't what one would classify as a dynamic coach on the practice field.

The only returning defensive back that showed improvement from last year would be safety Marviel Underwood, although the body of work was just two weeks before he needed reconstructive knee surgery.

One of the major disappointments was Mike Hawkins. As a rookie, he flashed enough to think he might eventually become a starter. As a second-year player, he almost refused to play hurt and the Packers gave up on him.
Some players regressing

Schottenheimer went to bat for Carroll again this summer, but Carroll's new-found maturity was just a figment of someone's imagination. It's entirely possibly no coach can ever reach him, but for now Carroll seems to have regressed to his rookie level.

Some players make quantum jumps in their second season but, for now at least, Collins isn't any better and might be worse. Billed by officials in Seattle as a great communicator, Manuel seems to have done more agitating than leading.

Neither of the two veterans, Harris nor Woodson, has played to his previous standards. Woodson, according to one scout, "kind of just drifts. He doesn't play with a motor, man. What is he doing? Absolutely nothing."

During his one season under Schottenheimer, Sharper praised the coach for his willingness to listen to veteran players and adapting, if necessary. In an interview at midweek, he called Schottenheimer "a fine coach who did an all right job in 2004 getting the guys prepared and studying. I love him to death." He added: "Schottenheimer might be in the learning process also, learning the defensive scheme from the new coordinator. That could be part of it also."

Whatever the case, the secondary isn't playing as well as it did even last season despite the costly signings of Woodson and Manuel. And anyone who paid attention to the dynamics of that sorry secondary two years ago should have seen this coming.
---

Well said. He's a joke of a DB coach. I say just fire him now. Give the job to Lionel Washington.

[Joemailman]

Two of the hallmarks of the Packer secondary last year were good tackling and knowing their assignments. Both have regressed this year. The hiring of Schottenheimer was a puzzlement in January, and looks worse now. With all the rookies playing this year, it was expected that a veteran secondary would be the strength of the team. It needs to happen if the Packers will have any success this year.

[RashanGary]

Damn, This isn't typical small town coverage. That was a direct scud launched right into the scrodum of Kurt Shottenheimer.

You expect this type of brutal honesty in NY or maybe Dallas or Washington when it comes to football but in GB, this stuff is just too good.

Seriously, who has the nuts to come out and be brutally honest like that. I respect it. It's true, but it's tough to do and from a reporter, this is what fans need to read; the truth.

[Bretsky]

Damn, This isn't typical small town coverage. That was a direct scud launched right into the scrodum of Kurt Shottenheimer.

You expect this type of brutal honesty in NY or maybe Dallas or Washington when it comes to football but in GB, this stuff is just too good.

Seriously, who has the nuts to come out and be brutally honest like that. I respect it. It's true, but it's tough to do and from a reporter, this is what fans need to read; the truth.

GREAT ARTICLE; THAT'S WHY MCGINN IS 2ND TO NONE.

Cliffy would say stuff like that in chat, but he wouldn't have the stats, quotes, and research to back it up.

B

[RashanGary]

That was a pretty damn good artical B...

A few more of those over the years and I'll be jumping ship from CC to BM.

[GrnBay007]

I don't care who wrote it.....it was pretty depressing.

...and scarey too!!!

[GBRulz]

I'm not a fan of Schottenheimer either, but I don't think it helps that we go through DC's like candy. How can players really develop when they coaches are constantly being switched every year?

I'm still bitter about Bates leaving. :mad:

[Patler]

What I find amazing is that this same "article" appeared on here last week and this week as contributions from a number of posters. References to the 2004 secondary as "dysfunctional" were written here. Comparisons to the 2003 and 2005 secondaries before and after Schottenheimer were made on here.

This isn't the first time that I've seen a major bulletin board subject of discussion miraculously become the topic of an article later the same week, with the same slant on the discussion and even some of the same details and descriptions..

Of all the things to write about on the Packers, why Schottenheimer this week?. The 2004 secondary as "dysfunctional"? Why not "confused", "unprepared" "poorly coached" or some other descriptor?

Am I giving us too much credit?? :oops: :shock:

[BananaMan]

Great minds think alike?

Is kind of peculiar though.

[RashanGary]

We're not the only ones talkign about it Patler. It was on 107.5, fans were talking about it everywhere I think.

What was that thread called. Maybe give it a bump cuz I can't find it.

[Tarlam!]

I don't care who wrote it.....it was pretty depressing.

...and scarey too!!!

These wer my exact thoughts, too!

[Tarlam!]

Great minds think alike?

Is kind of peculiar though.

Nah, we are simply entering.....


The Twilight Zone

Do-do-do-do.....do-do-do-do....... :shock:

[LEWCWA]

This hire is just one of the many red flags that says MM is going to be a terrible coach....He fits right in with the loser GM we have!!

[Patler]

We're not the only ones talkign about it Patler. It was on 107.5, fans were talking about it everywhere I think.

What was that thread called. Maybe give it a bump cuz I can't find it.

It's also being discussed on JSO.
We discussed it here in a couple threads about the defense, or the team in general, which lead to a thread specifically about firing Schottenheimer. Most of the good stuff was in the other threads.

[GrnBay007]

It's also being discussed on JSO.

There is actual discussion there? :shock:

[Patler]

It's also being discussed on JSO.

There is actual discussion there? :shock:

Compared to other boards (or at least one other one) the answer is YES!

[Tarlam!]

Seven, I just woke up about an hour ago. One of the first things I saw this morning was your avartar!

That thing has a way about it........morning Seven :razz:

[Rastak]

I don't know that I buy into that poor tackling is the secondary coaches fault. The article seems to imply that Bates and company taught the guys to tackle last year and now they forgot all that and tackle poorly? I will buy into an argument that the schemes are now poor perhaps and that the players may be getting burned because of that...but poor tackling? Hmmmm,,,,,not his fault.

[Fosco33]

What I find amazing is that this same "article" appeared on here last week and this week as contributions from a number of posters. References to the 2004 secondary as "dysfunctional" were written here. Comparisons to the 2003 and 2005 secondaries before and after Schottenheimer were made on here.

This isn't the first time that I've seen a major bulletin board subject of discussion miraculously become the topic of an article later the same week, with the same slant on the discussion and even some of the same details and descriptions..

Of all the things to write about on the Packers, why Schottenheimer this week?. The 2004 secondary as "dysfunctional"? Why not "confused", "unprepared" "poorly coached" or some other descriptor?

Am I giving us too much credit?? :oops: :shock:

That's hilarious, Patler.

[BobDobbs]

That is a great article and as usual McGinn relies heavily on pro scouts, which I love. He has a tendency to throw in some things that are ridiculous (implying that the fight between Carroll and Thomas was a coaching failure? I don't buy it).
But basically it is no great insight to see that the secondary has been worse when he is the coach.

What I want to know is. Why has Lionel Washinton not gotten the job? Every staff keeps him. That implies he must have something going for him. I mean, We've been changing D coordinators every year, but yet he stays. The players seem to love him. He played the position, he's an interactive coach. He put boxing gloves on Carroll to get him to stop holding(maybe they just have to carry that over to the games :smile: ). I just don't understand.

And I feel for the guy. Playing under Coach Shoddy and Slowik. Anyone ever work for a boss who was obviously dim witted and incompetent? Mmm hmm exactly

[FritzDontBlitz]

i agree with the article. does anybody remember mike mckenzie's gripe about not wanting to stay in green bay partly because lionel washington was passed over when shoimy was looking for a db coach?

lionel washington was a damn good db. what is kurt squattenheimer known for, other than being marty's brother?

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

i agree with the article. does anybody remember mike mckenzie's gripe about not wanting to stay in green bay partly because lionel washington was passed over when shoimy was looking for a db coach?

lionel washington was a damn good db. what is kurt squattenheimer known for, other than being marty's brother?


Gooe point, was thinking the same thing.

[vince]

I don't know that I buy into that poor tackling is the secondary coaches fault. The article seems to imply that Bates and company taught the guys to tackle last year and now they forgot all that and tackle poorly? I will buy into an argument that the schemes are now poor perhaps and that the players may be getting burned because of that...but poor tackling? Hmmmm,,,,,not his fault.
Without going back through the games in my mind, I don't remember real poor tackling by the secondary anyway... I was at the NO game and did my fair share of tailgating, so perhaps my memory's fuzzy... :cool: Maybe someone can refresh my memory if that's been a problem...

But even beyond that, the secondary definitely has not done a good job in coverage, sometimes attributable to poor one-on-one coverage technique (a sign of poor coaching), other times to lack of understanding of a specific responsibilities within a coverage (poor coaching), and other times to the coverages theselves (poor coaching again).

I am convinced that this secondary (at least the starting four) has the skills and ability to excel. Granted, half of this unit is brand new in this scheme and the entire unit has little experience working together, but the problems associated with these issues need to be rectified quickly.

If this unit doesn't come together and perform up to their capabilities soon, we can and should lay the blame squarely on the coaching. Schottenheimer definitely needs to be held to the fire.

[Bretsky]

I was at the Bear game and the secondary was a mess; running all over as the ball was snapped to get into the right positions on way too many plays. Chaos would be fair. Ditto for two years ago

[Patler]

What I remember from the Bears game, which brought back nightmares from 2004, was that after big plays guys in the secondary looked at each other and you could tell they weren't even sure who screwed up. We saw these "discussions" (sometimes very animated) in 2004 among the guys in the secondary, and we saw it a couple times in the Bear game. Confusion even after the play is run is bad preparation and that's bad coaching.

[MJZiggy]

That is absolutely correct (as usual). There should not be confusion before or after the play. If nothing else, the coach's job is to make certain that every player under his watch knows exactly what they're supposed to be doing. Uncertainty is unaccptable.

[wist43]

I don't know that I buy into that poor tackling is the secondary coaches fault. The article seems to imply that Bates and company taught the guys to tackle last year and now they forgot all that and tackle poorly? I will buy into an argument that the schemes are now poor perhaps and that the players may be getting burned because of that...but poor tackling? Hmmmm,,,,,not his fault.

Poor coaching can affect every area of a players performance. Things happen very quickly out there, and if a player is mentally unprepared he won't be in proper position, and being out of position leads to taking poor angles and using poor technique.

All of these guys know the physical mechanics of tackling... they've been drilled on it all of their lives; but, knowing how to do something, and being mentally prepared and willing to do it, especially when it is something that sometimes calls for some sacrifice (like making sure you get your head in front), are two different things.

Good tackling requires not only the obvious physicality, but a mental and philosophical committment on the part of the player as well... And, that is one of the responsibilities of the coach.

[vince]

That is absolutely correct (as usual). There should not be confusion before or after the play. If nothing else, the coach's job is to make certain that every player under his watch knows exactly what they're supposed to be doing. Uncertainty is unaccptable.
And while it's unacceptable during ANY regular season game, if it happens during the first or second game, those problems need to be rectified pronto.

This is a situation where I'd love to be privy to daily meetings and practices, so you can see the man in action to really understand the reasons for the mishaps. All we can do is see the results, and those are obviously lacking at this stage of the season.

[Patler]

That is absolutely correct (as usual). There should not be confusion before or after the play. If nothing else, the coach's job is to make certain that every player under his watch knows exactly what they're supposed to be doing. Uncertainty is unaccptable.
And while it's unacceptable during ANY regular season game, if it happens during the first or second game, those problems need to be rectified pronto.

This is a situation where I'd love to be privy to daily meetings and practices, so you can see the man in action to really understand the reasons for the mishaps. All we can do is see the results, and those are obviously lacking at this stage of the season.

In 2004, if anything, it got worse as the season progressed. We'll see what happens this year.

[KYPack]

This whole article has been rattling around in the back of my mind, but I've been trying to tell myself it ain't so.

There is a huge element missing in our defensive coaching...attitude.

Playing pass defense is a whole mentality. You've got to stay alert, but be loose athletically. Then when a catch is made, you've got to deliver a blow like there is no tomorrow. We are almost in reverse. We are too tight when covering, then not aggressive enough after that catch.

Jim Bates was the perfect DC and it ran downhill to his DB coach. Sanders in in over his head, and KS ain't coaching our secondary boys up worth a shit. Our guys are confused in their schemes and about 50 % as aggressive as you need to be in cover.

This hire (of KS) has always given me pause. It's pretty obvious M3 screwed up. In both the DC and DB coach. is the rest of the staff as bad a hire as these two guys? The mentioned that the WR coach seems quite competent. Hey that's good, but what is our staff overall?

M3 may well have to shitcan most of the D staff in the off-season. Can he get adequate replacements, or does he even know who to go get?

This is bad.

[wist43]

Yes, attitude...

Confidence, intelligence, passion, correctness, leadership and an overall ability to instill in others the desire to not only follow you, but to put it all on the line - b/c to fail would be to disappoint their leader, and that is simply unacceptable on a personal level.

Makes your heart ache for Vince Lombardi. :cry:

[vince]

This whole article has been rattling around in the back of my mind, but I've been trying to tell myself it ain't so.

There is a huge element missing in our defensive coaching...attitude.

Playing pass defense is a whole mentality. You've got to stay alert, but be loose athletically. Then when a catch is made, you've got to deliver a blow like there is no tomorrow. We are almost in reverse. We are too tight when covering, then not aggressive enough after that catch.

Jim Bates was the perfect DC and it ran downhill to his DB coach. Sanders in in over his head, and KS ain't coaching our secondary boys up worth a shit. Our guys are confused in their schemes and about 50 % as aggressive as you need to be in cover.

This hire (of KS) has always given me pause. It's pretty obvious M3 screwed up. In both the DC and DB coach. is the rest of the staff as bad a hire as these two guys? The mentioned that the WR coach seems quite competent. Hey that's good, but what is our staff overall?

M3 may well have to shitcan most of the D staff in the off-season. Can he get adequate replacements, or does he even know who to go get?

This is bad.
While passion and sidleine cheerleading on the part of coaches makes everyone feel good about how much they "care" about their team's success, I don't believe it manifests itself into improved on-the-field performance at all. Attitude is important, no doubt, but it doesn't take animated coaches to create attitude.

WHAT'S SAID is infinitely more important than HOW IT'S SAID, and we don't know what the coaches are saying unfortunately. Any style can work. There are way too many stoic, yet great coaches like Tom Landry and Bill Walsh to disprove the theory that you have to run up and down the sideline to create external motivation for a team. Even defensively, coaches like Bum Phillips (a VERY successful Defensive Coordinator) have abounded.

NFL players are self-motivated athletes who have the desire to excel deep within themselves, or they never would have reach the level they are at in the first place. Coaches running around on the sidelines or in practice are not going to make much difference in on-the-field results if the substance of what they coach isn't good. And those coaches who can effectively teach and bring out the best in players don't need to be animated personalities.

Now with all that said, I'm not sure Schottenheimer is the man, but its not because he doesn't run around the sidelines instilling "passion."

[RashanGary]

I don't know that I buy into that poor tackling is the secondary coaches fault. The article seems to imply that Bates and company taught the guys to tackle last year and now they forgot all that and tackle poorly? I will buy into an argument that the schemes are now poor perhaps and that the players may be getting burned because of that...but poor tackling? Hmmmm,,,,,not his fault.

Acctually, I think this might be the most accurate thing about the whole thing. Bates stressed tackling more than any coach I remember. He believed in simplicity and just making you tackle or shedding yoru block. He just wanted guys to go out and play, but not mess up on the little things. This new DC seems to wnat to out clever people instead of just out playing them. Kind of sad. I don't want some genius. I just want a guy who teaches football in a way thats understandable and lets the players play the game without over complicating it.

[Bretsky]

The players openly acknowledge they reacted well to Bates coaching style; it showed in their play as well.

I hope we see that sometimes down the road with these newbies.

[RashanGary]

What I remember from the Bears game, which brought back nightmares from 2004, was that after big plays guys in the secondary looked at each other and you could tell they weren't even sure who screwed up. We saw these "discussions" (sometimes very animated) in 2004 among the guys in the secondary, and we saw it a couple times in the Bear game. Confusion even after the play is run is bad preparation and that's bad coaching.

I was thinking that too Patler.

Manuel and Harris looked at each other like...What happened? I remember that happening over and over in 2004. They look almost the same now as they did then. The Secondary is great at run support and being aggressive but they have no regard for stopping the big play and when one happens, they look at each other like who was supposed to stop that. The reality is, I don't think the way it's being coached has anyone capable of stopping it.

McCarthy said Harris was supposed to push his guy outside and stay with him a little longer. Maybe by pushing him outside, it would have bought Manuel enough time to get in position. I doubt it though. Manuel was 10 steps slow there.

They need to stop going for broke with the way they play defense. The need to have a bend but dont' break mentality and then, occasionally Kamp or KGB will get pressure, not forced but just doing regular things in an extraordinary way. Maybe Hawk will just be in usual position and make a rutine hit but because he's stronger and more viscious than most LB's he'll force a fumble. Collins will just sit back again and maybe he'll make a routine coverage play but instead of must breaking up the pass, he'll get in front of one because he has deceptive speed and the QB thought he could fit it in. What I'm trying to say is that they're trying to out clever people again and they need to just out play them. It's pathetic when coaches try to control the out come of the game when all they should do is prepare players so they can control the outcome. Teach them how to tackle, play simple but physical defense. Just let the players play and tell them when they did something wrong. Make sure they know how to tackle and know how to position themselves in certain situations. Elaborate schemes have never worked in my experience in wathcing defense but I mgiht not have seen enough to have a really valid opinion here. I just liked the way Bates did it better.

[RashanGary]

There is one thing I like about our defense....

Manuel always throws late hits when he could just touch a guy. Sure, it's almost cheap but it shows that they believe hurting the opponent is important. I play that way too.

A couple years ago when I was acctually in really good shape, I played tackle football with a friend. Every time I got a chance, I bounced him off the ground. Eventually he went down easier and easier adn instead of trying to get yards he just tried to protect his body. I dont' try to play mean, I was growling though and eventually he just wanted to quit. I felt kind of bad but i was so pumped up, it was such a rush. Anyway, I l like guys who play that way. I can relate. I wasn't beating up some dude half my size iether. I was 165 and he was 205. I was a framer and ripped and he worked out but nothing compares to 10 hours a day of labor on a 23 year old body. I worked on my explosion too. We were playing football so I did 20 minutes every other day just doing explosive squats where I jumped as high as possible, doign explosive lunges with weights, ect....Anyway, I would train hard like 6 or 7 days before playing and then let my body reast really well before I knew I was going to play. I wasn't trying to be overly competitive or anythign but that is all I know how to be. I didn't tell anybody how I trained, I wnated a secret advange. God, I wouldn't want to play with me either.

That explosion training made me so f'in quick. I would fall down and a ball would be thrown over my head and I'd jump up like 35" and snatch it out of the air and wonder how I did that because I dont' remember ever being able to do what I was doing physically. It was crazy. I'm not bragging. This is my prime I'm speakign of. I'm now 25, sit on my ass all day. Exersise like 10 minutes a day just so it deosnt get too out of control and would get whooped my most highschool kids. That is what 2 years of doing nothing does to a body....I just wanted to reflect on a good time and I'm drinking caffiene again so my personality has gotten brash, aggressive and maybe boastfull at times.

[RashanGary]

LOL..

For liek a week I would eat really well and sparsely to drop like 5 LBS. I found that 5 lbs made a big difference in quickness. Then before I would play, I would eat a good meal in the morning, more than I am used to and spend the day streching and just making sure I was loose...


God, I was a reall fuker...Then I'd act all friendly like I was tired and didn't eat all day but really I was planning this for like a week. I'd be like, you sure you want to play, I"m sore from work ect....LOL

It was bad...I love to compete though. I just love football, playing it, wathcing it, talking about it, whatever......Sundays are so much better in the fall arn't they.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I don't think it's poor tackling. Overall, the tackling looks good. We still just look lost on coverage, sychematically.

[Partial]

I am sure the beat writers read what the fans are upset about to form stories. After all, their goal is selling the most papers, and every fan out there wants to be able to toute "see, I knew what I was talking about. This highly-paid and highly-regarded professional writer agrees with me!!"

I think we all have a much louder, more persuasive voice then we know it. While I realize most people do not share the same undying love for the Packers as we have, I have a hunch the management at least considers the message board/radio show chatter behind the scenes. After all, they certainly don't want to turn off/offend their hardcore fans.

[Partial]

There is one thing I like about our defense....

Manuel always throws late hits when he could just touch a guy. Sure, it's almost cheap but it shows that they believe hurting the opponent is important. I play that way too.

A couple years ago when I was acctually in really good shape, I played tackle football with a friend. Every time I got a chance, I bounced him off the ground. Eventually he went down easier and easier adn instead of trying to get yards he just tried to protect his body. I dont' try to play mean, I was growling though and eventually he just wanted to quit. I felt kind of bad but i was so pumped up, it was such a rush. Anyway, I l like guys who play that way. I can relate. I wasn't beating up some dude half my size iether. I was 165 and he was 205. I was a framer and ripped and he worked out but nothing compares to 10 hours a day of labor on a 23 year old body. I worked on my explosion too. We were playing football so I did 20 minutes every other day just doing explosive squats where I jumped as high as possible, doign explosive lunges with weights, ect....Anyway, I would train hard like 6 or 7 days before playing and then let my body reast really well before I knew I was going to play. I wasn't trying to be overly competitive or anythign but that is all I know how to be. I didn't tell anybody how I trained, I wnated a secret advange. God, I wouldn't want to play with me either.

That explosion training made me so f'in quick. I would fall down and a ball would be thrown over my head and I'd jump up like 35" and snatch it out of the air and wonder how I did that because I dont' remember ever being able to do what I was doing physically. It was crazy. I'm not bragging. This is my prime I'm speakign of. I'm now 25, sit on my ass all day. Exersise like 10 minutes a day just so it deosnt get too out of control and would get whooped my most highschool kids. That is what 2 years of doing nothing does to a body....I just wanted to reflect on a good time and I'm drinking caffiene again so my personality has gotten brash, aggressive and maybe boastfull at times.

that just kinda makes you a dick. Why would you brag about exercising unnecessary roughness on a friend? There is no need to play cheap and dirty unless you know you are outmatched.

[rdanomly]

I am sure the beat writers read what the fans are upset about to form stories. After all, their goal is selling the most papers, and every fan out there wants to be able to toute "see, I knew what I was talking about. This highly-paid and highly-regarded professional writer agrees with me!!"

I think we all have a much louder, more persuasive voice then we know it. While I realize most people do not share the same undying love for the Packers as we have, I have a hunch the management at least considers the message board/radio show chatter behind the scenes. After all, they certainly don't want to turn off/offend their hardcore fans.

So who wants to take a guess at which packerrat is really a journalist in hiding? :smile:

[Partial]

The players openly acknowledge they reacted well to Bates coaching style; it showed in their play as well.

I hope we see that sometimes down the road with these newbies.

Didn't Harris have a locker room explosion at the end of last year, or was that 2004? Regardless, I don't think you'll see the support for the defensive regime this year, if ever. I think you'll consistently get support for Ray McCarthy (or is it Mike Rhodes?) from the players, though.

[Partial]

Yes, attitude...

Confidence, intelligence, passion, correctness, leadership and an overall ability to instill in others the desire to not only follow you, but to put it all on the line - b/c to fail would be to disappoint their leader, and that is simply unacceptable on a personal level.

Makes your heart ache for Vince Lombardi. :cry:

Or Holmgren. Or going after someone from a consistently successful program that either called the plays on their side of the ball or was closely affiliated with the play calling and game planning.

I realize the Pats staff was already gutted, but I would have looked their or to Pittsburg for our new head coach.

[Partial]

I don't know that I buy into that poor tackling is the secondary coaches fault. The article seems to imply that Bates and company taught the guys to tackle last year and now they forgot all that and tackle poorly? I will buy into an argument that the schemes are now poor perhaps and that the players may be getting burned because of that...but poor tackling? Hmmmm,,,,,not his fault.

Poor coaching can affect every area of a players performance. Things happen very quickly out there, and if a player is mentally unprepared he won't be in proper position, and being out of position leads to taking poor angles and using poor technique.

All of these guys know the physical mechanics of tackling... they've been drilled on it all of their lives; but, knowing how to do something, and being mentally prepared and willing to do it, especially when it is something that sometimes calls for some sacrifice (like making sure you get your head in front), are two different things.

Good tackling requires not only the obvious physicality, but a mental and philosophical committment on the part of the player as well... And, that is one of the responsibilities of the coach.

Amen, you hit the nail on the head. Obviously these kids know how to hit someone and know how to play. Now, they need to find someone who can improve their skills further and motivate them to hit (because after all, they're getting paid a significant sum of money whether they win or lose games).

[HarveyWallbangers]

The tackling has been pretty rock solid compared to the last 2-3 years. The coverage breakdowns have been appalling though. In that aspect of the game, it looks a lot like 2004 again.

[Partial]

That is a great article and as usual McGinn relies heavily on pro scouts, which I love. He has a tendency to throw in some things that are ridiculous (implying that the fight between Carroll and Thomas was a coaching failure? I don't buy it).
But basically it is no great insight to see that the secondary has been worse when he is the coach.

What I want to know is. Why has Lionel Washinton not gotten the job? Every staff keeps him. That implies he must have something going for him. I mean, We've been changing D coordinators every year, but yet he stays. The players seem to love him. He played the position, he's an interactive coach. He put boxing gloves on Carroll to get him to stop holding(maybe they just have to carry that over to the games :smile: ). I just don't understand.

And I feel for the guy. Playing under Coach Shoddy and Slowik. Anyone ever work for a boss who was obviously dim witted and incompetent? Mmm hmm exactly

Slowik was a solid DB coach and has coached one of the best secondaries in FB since leaving the Pack. Shoddy isn't half the coach Slowik is. I take this article with a grain of salt because as you said, he cannot explain the difference of why the players seem to play worse under him. I have wondered since the new defensive regime was brought in why LW didn't get the job despite MMs public and never-ending support for him, and then again this year when another new regime came in despite the solid performance from the secondary last year. Clearly, the head coaches don't feel he has what it takes to be the coach there.

[Partial]

The tackling has been pretty rock solid compared to the last 2-3 years. The coverage breakdowns have been appalling though. In that aspect of the game, it looks a lot like 2004 again.

Obviously, the biggest change there is Manual and Collins, since they are both much bigger hitters than Sharper and Roman of 2004. Roman F'd up a tackle on Westbrooks big run today.

I am really curious as to why they seem to have regressed so much despite another season of coniditioning, weight training, and experience. Just doesn't add up to me. Must be the coaching.

[KYPack]

This whole article has been rattling around in the back of my mind, but I've been trying to tell myself it ain't so.

There is a huge element missing in our defensive coaching...attitude.

Playing pass defense is a whole mentality. You've got to stay alert, but be loose athletically. Then when a catch is made, you've got to deliver a blow like there is no tomorrow. We are almost in reverse. We are too tight when covering, then not aggressive enough after that catch.

Jim Bates was the perfect DC and it ran downhill to his DB coach. Sanders in in over his head, and KS ain't coaching our secondary boys up worth a shit. Our guys are confused in their schemes and about 50 % as aggressive as you need to be in cover.

This hire (of KS) has always given me pause. It's pretty obvious M3 screwed up. In both the DC and DB coach. is the rest of the staff as bad a hire as these two guys? The mentioned that the WR coach seems quite competent. Hey that's good, but what is our staff overall?

M3 may well have to shitcan most of the D staff in the off-season. Can he get adequate replacements, or does he even know who to go get?

This is bad.
While passion and sidleine cheerleading on the part of coaches makes everyone feel good about how much they "care" about their team's success, I don't believe it manifests itself into improved on-the-field performance at all. Attitude is important, no doubt, but it doesn't take animated coaches to create attitude.

WHAT'S SAID is infinitely more important than HOW IT'S SAID, and we don't know what the coaches are saying unfortunately. Any style can work. There are way too many stoic, yet great coaches like Tom Landry and Bill Walsh to disprove the theory that you have to run up and down the sideline to create external motivation for a team. Even defensively, coaches like Bum Phillips (a VERY successful Defensive Coordinator) have abounded.

NFL players are self-motivated athletes who have the desire to excel deep within themselves, or they never would have reach the level they are at in the first place. Coaches running around on the sidelines or in practice are not going to make much difference in on-the-field results if the substance of what they coach isn't good. And those coaches who can effectively teach and bring out the best in players don't need to be animated personalities.

Now with all that said, I'm not sure Schottenheimer is the man, but its not because he doesn't run around the sidelines instilling "passion."

You miss my point.

I don't care if a coach jumps around like a maniac, or buries his hands in his hoodie like Belachick. I want the players confident, poised and fired up.

Bates used to jump & twitch 'cause that was his style. it was his coaching that caught my attention. Schottenheimer is just the secondary coach anyhow, I don't recall a real animated DB coach.

Whatever the reason, these DB's ain't assignment sure & that isn't hacking the program.

Schottenheimer had problems in his last tour here & things ain't much better this time around. I don't think Sanders and Schottenheimer are the guys to get the job done, based on the performance of their troops.

[vince]

This whole article has been rattling around in the back of my mind, but I've been trying to tell myself it ain't so.

There is a huge element missing in our defensive coaching...attitude.

Playing pass defense is a whole mentality. You've got to stay alert, but be loose athletically. Then when a catch is made, you've got to deliver a blow like there is no tomorrow. We are almost in reverse. We are too tight when covering, then not aggressive enough after that catch.

Jim Bates was the perfect DC and it ran downhill to his DB coach. Sanders in in over his head, and KS ain't coaching our secondary boys up worth a shit. Our guys are confused in their schemes and about 50 % as aggressive as you need to be in cover.

This hire (of KS) has always given me pause. It's pretty obvious M3 screwed up. In both the DC and DB coach. is the rest of the staff as bad a hire as these two guys? The mentioned that the WR coach seems quite competent. Hey that's good, but what is our staff overall?

M3 may well have to shitcan most of the D staff in the off-season. Can he get adequate replacements, or does he even know who to go get?

This is bad.
While passion and sidleine cheerleading on the part of coaches makes everyone feel good about how much they "care" about their team's success, I don't believe it manifests itself into improved on-the-field performance at all. Attitude is important, no doubt, but it doesn't take animated coaches to create attitude.

WHAT'S SAID is infinitely more important than HOW IT'S SAID, and we don't know what the coaches are saying unfortunately. Any style can work. There are way too many stoic, yet great coaches like Tom Landry and Bill Walsh to disprove the theory that you have to run up and down the sideline to create external motivation for a team. Even defensively, coaches like Bum Phillips (a VERY successful Defensive Coordinator) have abounded.

NFL players are self-motivated athletes who have the desire to excel deep within themselves, or they never would have reach the level they are at in the first place. Coaches running around on the sidelines or in practice are not going to make much difference in on-the-field results if the substance of what they coach isn't good. And those coaches who can effectively teach and bring out the best in players don't need to be animated personalities.

Now with all that said, I'm not sure Schottenheimer is the man, but its not because he doesn't run around the sidelines instilling "passion."

You miss my point.

I don't care if a coach jumps around like a maniac, or buries his hands in his hoodie like Belachick. I want the players confident, poised and fired up.

Bates used to jump & twitch 'cause that was his style. it was his coaching that caught my attention. Schottenheimer is just the secondary coach anyhow, I don't recall a real animated DB coach.

Whatever the reason, these DB's ain't assignment sure & that isn't hacking the program.

Schottenheimer had problems in his last tour here & things ain't much better this time around. I don't think Sanders and Schottenheimer are the guys to get the job done, based on the performance of their troops.
Then, as far as Shoddy is concerned, we agree on that!

I'm giving Sanders a little more time, because he seems to have half (and the most important) part of the equation going... stop the run... but the pass defense has got to be addressed... We'll see how it goes.

Next week could be even worse... I certainly hope not.

[red]

good read

its obvious something is very wrong, and it looks like the blame should go right on the coach. we have 2 pro bowl cb's, both look like rookies this year. harris was all world last year and can't do anything this year.

collins looked great last year, and now in his second year, he looks like a lost rookie

manuel, was a capable starter on a super bowl team last year, and sucks something massive, this year.

for all those players to regress like they have, and as badly as they have, you have to look at the coach IMO

if it wasn't for our pathetic secondary play, we might be a decent team this year. the one massive problem with this team, is that we can't stop the pass, at all

[mission]

its a lot easier to make a sure tackle when you're in a position to do that. being lost and playing on your back foot isnt that.

he's a horrible coach who's making us look worse than we really are.

[Guiness]

What I want to know is. Why has Lionel Washinton not gotten the job? Every staff keeps him. That implies he must have something going for him. I mean, We've been changing D coordinators every year, but yet he stays. The players seem to love him. He played the position, he's an interactive coach. He put boxing gloves on Carroll to get him to stop holding(maybe they just have to carry that over to the games Smile ). I just don't understand.


Not to mention that one of the reasons MM stated for leaving was that Washington didn't get the position.

I rather have MM still here, and Washington the DB coach myself!!!

edit: I see Fritz said the same thing.

[vince]

The Blame Game: Kurt Schottenheimer and the Secondary

September 25, 2006
Written by Rick Cina - PackerChatters Staff


Kurt Schottenheimer is often heavily blamed for the current woes in the Packers secondary. But what do we really know about what Kurt Schottenheimer is or isn’t doing in the coaches’ rooms, in the film rooms, or on the practice field? Not much, if anything at all.

We don’t know exactly how much say he has in devising the defensive game plans. We don’t know exactly how much influence he has in play selection during the course of a game. And we don’t exactly know what kind of things he says or doesn’t say to the defensive backs he coaches.

And yet it still seems quite popular to assert that if the defensive backs are playing poorly---and they’ve played about as poorly as they did in 2004 to this point---then it probably has a lot to do with Schottenheimer’s coaching deficiencies specifically.

We don’t have many facts to go on, but the one fact we do have---that Schottenheimer is back coaching the defensive backs again after a one-year hiatus---seems to be enough for many observers to altogether indict him.

But consider how unimpressively the offensive line is said to be performing (especially on running plays) so far this season. And then consider that Joe Philbin, the offensive line coach, doesn’t seem to be getting the same blame heaped upon him that Schottenheimer is.

Or consider that Winston Moss’ name is rarely, if ever, mentioned when discussing Brady Poppinga’s well-publicized coverage problems.

And why does Lionel Washington seem to get a perpetual free pass whenever the shoddy play of the defensive backs is mentioned? Washington has survived the firings of two head coaches, as well as four defensive coordinators, and yet he still retains his post on the coaching staff.

Apparently there are assistant coaches who are liked (or at least nothing much is ever said about them), and those who are not liked. Schottenheimer is a flaming example of the latter.

If Mike McCarthy would have brought in a defensive backs coach who had a name that Packer fans had never heard of, it’s likely there would be no more than a whisper about the new coach’s toxic influence on the flawed secondary play.

Now, is it possible that Schottenheimer has had a lot to do with the Green Bay’s tendencies to give up so many long pass plays through the first three games? Sure, that’s possible.

But it’s also possible, and maybe even probable, that the recent tendencies to give up big passing plays has more to do with performance deficiencies by the players themselves than it has to do with a single assistant coach with a sullied reputation.

Unlike our scant knowledge of actual assistant coaching performances and behaviors, we can know a thing or two about how poorly individual players have performed in the last three games just by watching them on television.

From my vantage point (which I fully acknowledge isn’t a duly informed one), Marquand Manuel has been taking wrong angles on tackles. He’s been biting on the fakes and double moves of opposing receivers. He’s seemingly been out of position on some key plays, or at least it appears he’s not where he should be. And, again from my vantage point, he doesn’t have much speed, nor has he even flashed much quickness. For all the talk of him being something of a coach, a teacher, out there on the field, he’s the one who appears to play in a more confused manner than the other defensive backs do.

Nick Collins has, from my vantage point, been tackling well enough and covering well enough. But he’s had some lapses, such as falling down twice last week when the ball was in the air, that were not necessarily characteristic of how he played a year ago.

Charles Woodson has, from my vantage point, been playing rather softly, or a bit too casually for my taste. It’s as if he thinks that playing at a top level just comes naturally to him. And I don’t think playing top-notch football can be done at this level without simultaneously putting forth a top-notch effort.

So, in my opinion, Marquand Manuel’s apparent tackling, covering, and speed deficiencies, Nick Collins’ costly lapses, and Charles Woodson’s apparently haphazard playing style are in and of themselves more to blame for Green Bay’s poor secondary showing thus far than whatever Kurt Schottenheimer is or isn’t doing in his duties as an assistant coach.

And that would probably still be the case even if we did know several specifics about the in-week and game-day coaching behaviors of Marty’s younger brother.

And we don’t know those specifics. Which makes our presumptions about the poisonous nature of Kurt Schottenheimer’s influence on Green Bay’s secondary all the more suspect.
I don't agree with the perspective this writer puts forth, but he does make some points worthy of consideration...

All we can go on is results, or lack thereof, and I believe that our starting secondary has the skills to be much more effective than they've been thus far. The fact that they haven't been effective yet means they're not understanding their techniques and responsibilities - a situation in which responsibility lies with the coach.

[pbmax]

I agree, look at the stats McGinn quoted:


The opponents' passer rating of 99.1 in 2004 shattered the club record of 86.1 set by Scooter McLean's outfit in '58. In two games, the opponents' rating is 97.1.
And then consider that last year, the good among the bad, we gave up a 86.2 opposing QB rating.

2004: 99.1 Slowik/Schott/Washington
2006: 97.1 Sanders/Schott/Washinton
2005: 86.2 Bates/Baker/Washington
1958: 86.1 Scooter McLean

Our pass D is awful no matter who coaches it in the last three years. 86.2 last year put us at 19th in the league in defense against the pass.

Is Schottenheimer worse that Baker? Probably, maybe definitely. But there are other holes here. And the biggest is pass rush.

There is a reason TT spent his money here and it wasn't because the pass D was in wonderful shape.

It will be an interesting test to see if McCarthy is cold-blooded enough to ax him.

[Terry]

Jim Bates was the perfect DC and it ran downhill to his DB coach. Sanders in in over his head, and KS ain't coaching our secondary boys up worth a shit. Our guys are confused in their schemes and about 50 % as aggressive as you need to be in cover.

This hire (of KS) has always given me pause. It's pretty obvious M3 screwed up. In both the DC and DB coach. is the rest of the staff as bad a hire as these two guys? The mentioned that the WR coach seems quite competent. Hey that's good, but what is our staff overall?

Sanders is getting a bad rap. He's a very bright guy and he looks like he might turn out to be a very good DC.

It'll be hard to know as long as Kurt is there. Slowik had a big problem with Kurt in 2004 - worse, actually, than now. He's a brilliant secondary coach and he has a brilliant mind. He never really got a proper chance as DC, because Schotty undermined him so badly. I mean BADLY. Schotty just simply wouldn't cooperate. Slowik had a lot of creative ideas (and creativity has been sadly lacking in GB until this year), but Schotty would absolutely refuse to implement them. Many times, Schotty would go straight to Sherman about things, bypassing Slowik entirely. And Sherman didn't stand up for Slowik, who had been one of his best friends. Something happened to Sherman after 2003 (we all know what) and he changed. As a result, he just sort of threw Slowik to the wolves.

It's impossible to properly evaluate Sanders until the secondary mess is cleaned up. It would be a damned shame if he went down for all the wrong reasons.

[swede]

Manuel always throws late hits when he could just touch a guy. Sure, it's almost cheap but it shows that they believe hurting the opponent is important. I play that way too.

In Marquand Molasse's case, the only way he gets a chance to hit a guy is after he's already down.

[pbmax]

It'll be hard to know as long as Kurt is there. Slowik had a big problem with Kurt in 2004 - worse, actually, than now. He's a brilliant secondary coach and he has a brilliant mind. He never really got a proper chance as DC, because Schotty undermined him so badly. I mean BADLY. Schotty just simply wouldn't cooperate. Slowik had a lot of creative ideas (and creativity has been sadly lacking in GB until this year), but Schotty would absolutely refuse to implement them. Many times, Schotty would go straight to Sherman about things, bypassing Slowik entirely. And Sherman didn't stand up for Slowik, who had been one of his best friends. Something happened to Sherman after 2003 (we all know what) and he changed. As a result, he just sort of threw Slowik to the wolves.
You seem to be referencing information that could only be known to coaches and those deep inside the organization. This kind of speculation, that KS is now undermining Sanders like he undermined Slowik is hard to accept and I would hope you have something factual to back it up.

And I also find it hard to believe the Sherman sided with KS against Slowik on all things considering that Sherman choose Slowik personally after 4th and 26th debacle.

And then Sherman, after buying what you say KS was selling, turned around and fired KS. Sounds all over the map to me.

[KYPack]

Jim Bates was the perfect DC and it ran downhill to his DB coach. Sanders in in over his head, and KS ain't coaching our secondary boys up worth a shit. Our guys are confused in their schemes and about 50 % as aggressive as you need to be in cover.

This hire (of KS) has always given me pause. It's pretty obvious M3 screwed up. In both the DC and DB coach. is the rest of the staff as bad a hire as these two guys? The mentioned that the WR coach seems quite competent. Hey that's good, but what is our staff overall?

Sanders is getting a bad rap. He's a very bright guy and he looks like he might turn out to be a very good DC.

It'll be hard to know as long as Kurt is there. Slowik had a big problem with Kurt in 2004 - worse, actually, than now. He's a brilliant secondary coach and he has a brilliant mind. He never really got a proper chance as DC, because Schotty undermined him so badly. I mean BADLY. Schotty just simply wouldn't cooperate. Slowik had a lot of creative ideas (and creativity has been sadly lacking in GB until this year), but Schotty would absolutely refuse to implement them. Many times, Schotty would go straight to Sherman about things, bypassing Slowik entirely. And Sherman didn't stand up for Slowik, who had been one of his best friends. Something happened to Sherman after 2003 (we all know what) and he changed. As a result, he just sort of threw Slowik to the wolves.

It's impossible to properly evaluate Sanders until the secondary mess is cleaned up. It would be a damned shame if he went down for all the wrong reasons.

Disagree with most of this. Slowik came billed as some kind of Blitz master. He supposedly had all these trick schemes to enhance our D.

I attended the Packers Colts game in Indy in 2004. I had the experience of watching Peyton Manning burn Slowiks' blitzing D for several scores. Slowik then put in a whole new cover scheme for the remainder of the game. That adjustment did't bother Manning much either.

I don't think Slowik is a great D coordinator. He might be in some situations, but he needs a team that can blitz sucessfully and cover in a blitz scheme.

As far as Schotty undermining Slowik, I think Slowik undermined himself. I heard a little about something like that, but I don't think it's significant.