KGB

[RashanGary]

He looked invisable. I think this may be his last season in GB.

I'm really hoping that a pass rushing DE falls to us in the draft this year. We need pressure from the blind side and we're just not getting it at all from KGB.

[Tony Oday]

He was fighting a double all game. He did get some preasures however he did eat up an extra blocker to make it so Jenkins, Williams and Kamp only had single blocks all game...

[Fritz]

I think Ron Wolf was right: he's best suited to being a third down pass rusher.

[Partial]

Well, lets look at it this way. The lions have pretty good defensive ends and neither of them were any bigger of a factor than KGB. He isn't Reggie White, but so far this season he hasn't look like a liability and looked like a pretty good player.

[Pack0514]

Did anyone see Jason Hunter make that Special Teams tackle? I didnt see him line up on the defense though. I was surprised he was even active for the game...... Okay sorry, back to KGB.....

[GoPack06]

I would like to trade him. I think if we could get like a second round or thrid round pick for him. Put Montgomery and Hunter in. Nothing against KGB but if we're looking to go younger. We knock out his big cotract and get a draft pick for him.

[retailguy]

I would like to trade him. I think if we could get like a second round or thrid round pick for him. Put Montgomery and Hunter in. Nothing against KGB but if we're looking to go younger. We knock out his big cotract and get a draft pick for him.


His contract is not that bad. If I recall it had fairly palatable salaries right up to the end of it.

I realize he got a "blockbuster" deal when he signed it, but it is no longer the "cap albatross" that everyone makes it out to be.

We've got what we've got, a one dimensional pass rusher.

He, as someone else so astutely pointed out, took on a double team all day, in fact, if he hadn't been doubled, there would have been a guy to block Hawk on his great sack. Don't lose the big picture....

[KYPack]

I would like to trade him. I think if we could get like a second round or thrid round pick for him. Put Montgomery and Hunter in. Nothing against KGB but if we're looking to go younger. We knock out his big cotract and get a draft pick for him.


His contract is not that bad. If I recall it had fairly palatable salaries right up to the end of it.

I realize he got a "blockbuster" deal when he signed it, but it is no longer the "cap albatross" that everyone makes it out to be.

We've got what we've got, a one dimensional pass rusher.

He, as someone else so astutely pointed out, took on a double team all day, in fact, if he hadn't been doubled, there would have been a guy to block Hawk on his great sack. Don't lose the big picture....

The big picture is the big contract.

He's got the second highest salary on the team.

2006 Cap hit $5,421,429

Remaining Pro Rated Salary cap hit $4,714,287

His contract was and is a big problem. It bothers the team's palate big time.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Whats his salary next year?

[Scott Campbell]

Age is particularly cruel to his single dimension - speed. He's declining.

[KYPack]

Whats his salary next year?

Around 3.9 million.

If we cut him this year, it was a $10 million hit.

We will cut him after this season and absorb the $4,714,287 hit and move on.

KGB's contract is one of the worst in Packer history. That said, I really like the guy, he played hard, he was just one dimensional. We will be out from under it after this season

[retailguy]

The big picture is the big contract.

He's got the second highest salary on the team.

2006 Cap hit $5,421,429

Remaining Pro Rated Salary cap hit $4,714,287

His contract was and is a big problem. It bothers the team's palate big time.


KY, couldn't disagree more.

When he signed his deal in 2003, he got way too much money. I don't, and never have, disagreed with that fact. Fortunately for the Packers, the salary cap has climbed from 75.007 million in 2003 to 102. million in 2006, a 36% increase.

This raised the "average" pay of a Defensive End, and made KGB's contract palatable. The fact that he is in the 4th year of a 7 year contract and his base is spiking, in itself, doesn't make the contact burdensome.

From my vantage point, you release players for three principle reasons:

1. They can no longer play
2. There is someone on the team ready to step in who is cheaper.
3. The team can no longer afford the players contract.

1st, KGB, can play, he has value, and if released, he'd be picked up instantly. Pass rushers, even one dimensional ones, have significant value in this league. We can debate "how effective KGB is", whether or not the majority of his sacks came in "garbage time", or whatever, but he can play.

2nd, if they release KGB, WHO steps in? If you ask me, the major problem is not his contract, it is the fact that the team has NOBODY to complement him. One of the reasons he still plays all the time is that the team doesn't have anyone to step in, that can defend the run better than him. So, how do you get those guys? With Thompson, that's through the draft. I think most of us can agree that he's not likely to find a good DE in free agency, sign them, and then jettison KGB. Montgomery is at this point, disappointing, and Jason Hunter is just as small as KGB. There isn't anyone else on the roster. That means the draft, and that means there won't be anyone to start 2007 unless they come through free agency.

3rd, the packers have no current cap problems. They are even front loading contracts to spend the money they have. They sure won't release him for this reason.

Now, it comes down to, is he overpaid? Surely you think so, KY, and there are others here that agree with you. I don't. He's paid a ton of money, and he WAS overpaid in 2003. But today, in 2006, his contract is "average". Pass rushing DE's are a valuable commodity and almost all are overpaid. I'd do some salary comparisons, but those I picked would "be the wrong guys". They'd all be better or more valuable than KGB, and I'd be accused of "slanting the numbers or the personnel to support my agenda".

So, if you want to name 3 contemporaries in the NFL, NOT on their rookie contract, who you feel are solid comparisons to KGB, I'll do the contract comparisons. I believe that will back my point, that KGB is NOT OVERPAID, and furthermore, that his contract is no longer a bad deal. It should be, at this point, a VERY good deal for the Packers, which it IS NOT, but it is not the albatross that it used to be, or could have been.

Finally, KGB, is a solid guy, with an impeccable reputation, leadership skills, and has NEVER been accused of being a "problem child". He's the kind of veteran you want in a locker room full of inexperienced guys. If TT took your point of view, and decides that the guy is hopelessly overpaid, and furthermore, that he's not likely to get more money on the open market, don't you approach him first to restructure?

I just don't see them dumping him at this point, even though he is a Sherman guy. Greenday/Mraynrand is right, Sherman's guys are disappearing at an alarmingly fast rate, so anything is possible, but it sure isn't a slam dunk, ESPECIALLY on the basis of his contract.

See this article with a blurb on KGB's contract if you don't believe me:

"Gbaja-Biamila, in the meantime, is scheduled to make $5 million next year, when he'll turn 30. That will be well within the going rate for good pass rushers. But that's assuming his sack total increases or at least doesn't drop below the eight sacks he had last year. He had 13½ in 2004."

http://www.packersnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060917/PKR01/609170622/1989

There are other things in this article that I intend to address with my financial analysis based upon the DE's you provide, I'm not just cherry picking, but it, to me at least, supports the perspective that KGB is not overpaid, even for being one dimensional. I'll maintain he's being used improperly, out of necessity, but still. He should be in there on passing situations on 2nd down, and in 3rd down situational packages, but expecting him to hold the point on clear rushing downs is, and always has been stupid. That, however, is NOT KGB's fault.

[SkinBasket]

2nd, if they release KGB, WHO steps in? If you ask me, the major problem is not his contract, it is the fact that the team has NOBODY to complement him.

I think that for the money he makes, we could find someone who is at least as ineffective as he is. I absolutely hate Hunter and the fact he made the team says we suck in a nutshell. But I would rather have him trying to ineffectively speed rush while being destroyed on running plays for 3.5 million less than KGB.

[retailguy]

2nd, if they release KGB, WHO steps in? If you ask me, the major problem is not his contract, it is the fact that the team has NOBODY to complement him.

I think that for the money he makes, we could find someone who is at least as ineffective as he is. I absolutely hate Hunter and the fact he made the team says we suck in a nutshell. But I would rather have him trying to ineffectively speed rush while being destroyed on running plays for 3.5 million less than KGB.

Skin,
Who rushes the passer at that point? Kampman is a try hard guy, sure, but sacks haven't been his specialty. He's had one really good year, and a couple of pretty good years, but he doesn't have the numbers KGB has got.

This defense doesn't rush the linebackers as a basic philosphy, therefore the rush has to come from the front four. Pickett was brought in as a run stopper, and doesn't have a pass rush track record, so that leaves Jenkins. He's good and I like him, but how effective will he and Kampman be without KGB? KGB is taking a lot of double teams, leaving either Kampman or Jenkins with a single blocker. I'd maintain that's one of the reasons Kampman was so successful last season. I'm sure others will disagree with me.

We need a run stopper DE that can hold the point. Finding someone who can do that, AND rush the passer is a tough find in free agency, and won't come cheaper than KGB.

[b bulldog]

tHIS WILL PROBABLY BE HIS LAST YEAR IN gb UNLESS he redoes his contract

[SkinBasket]

Finding someone who can do that, AND rush the passer is a tough find in free agency, and won't come cheaper than KGB.

I dont disagree with that. I just think we could have someone who does what KGB "does" for a lot less money. I'm not saying we could upgrade for less, just that we could have the same production for less.

[KYPack]

RG,

I'm not gonna pick out 3 DE's for you to do your analysis. My reasoning is simple.

I think it's more fundamental than you post in your "Keep KGB" post.

He's aging, makes WAY too much $ (for what he can do next year) and we will finally save a little $ by cutting him. There are other factors, such as KGB being a Shermanoid, that make me think he's gone. I think he'll be cut or radically restructured.

I had a similar debate with Patler over Diggs last year. We kept it simple, a couple posts apiece.

I turned out right on that one which leads me to believe I'll wrong on this one, something like that rarely happens twice.

I can see you like the player, hey, so do I. He represents all that is good about Pro Football, he's a fantastic person, as well as busting it every play. He justs makes too much $ (I know you think that ain't so, but we'll see) and is getting old for that job.

They cut him or his pay in the off season.

[Partial]

I think there is a reason we are fans and not GMs/coaches :razz:

[Tony Oday]

I think KGB will be great when we sign Freeney next offseason...

think about it...TT wants to be Wolf reincarnate...Wolf signed a STUD DE...Freeney is available next year and we have cap room...

[GoPack06]

Freeneys gonna get like 80 billion a year when he hits free agency.

[MJZiggy]

If Freeney is that good why are we assuming that he's gonna actually hit free agency. Isn't it more likely that with the second year of staggered increases in the salary cap that he will be resigned? Unless, of course, the Colts decide he's old and no longer worth the money, but I don't know that I see that happening.

[jack's smirking revenge]

I don't see Freeney hitting the market, but I can see the Packers jettisoning KGB at the end of the season--either via trade or free agency--and, as is typical TT style, addressing the void in the position with a high draft pick. I'd be OK with that.

I like KGB; I do agree that he is pretty one-dimensional though and that fact is a liability to our young defense.

tyler

[Zool]

If Freeney is that good why are we assuming that he's gonna actually hit free agency. Isn't it more likely that with the second year of staggered increases in the salary cap that he will be resigned? Unless, of course, the Colts decide he's old and no longer worth the money, but I don't know that I see that happening.You and that pesky logic Ziggy. Teams wont be getting much in FA over the next 4 years until the overbloated salaries take up the slack in the increasing salary cap. The franchise tag is see'ing to that.

As good as Freeney is, I cant see giving up 2 first round picks for him if he's tagged.

[Lurker64]

I don't see Freeney hitting the market

So the Colts are going to tie up 75% of their cap money in 3-4 players? The salary cap might cushion that blow, but the Colts are already topheavy.

[Partial]

If Freeney is that good why are we assuming that he's gonna actually hit free agency. Isn't it more likely that with the second year of staggered increases in the salary cap that he will be resigned? Unless, of course, the Colts decide he's old and no longer worth the money, but I don't know that I see that happening.

He won't. I don't see how they possibly are going to make it happen, but they're going to franchise him. They already said they would franchise him if they can't work out a long term deal. I have no idea how they are going to keep so many big salaries, but we'll see. Who knows if Harrison will play another year or if Corey Simon will still be on the team after this year.

[Partial]

I don't see Freeney hitting the market

So the Colts are going to tie up 75% of their cap money in 3-4 players? The salary cap might cushion that blow, but the Colts are already topheavy.

That was my thought exactly, but they have publically acknowledged that they will franchise him if they cannot resign him to a long-term deal. My thoughts are they are the benefactors of renewing all their contracts before the cap went wayyyy up!! The have manning, Harrison, Wayne, Simon, etc. at what will be relative bargins after this years cap jump.

[retailguy]

If Freeney is that good why are we assuming that he's gonna actually hit free agency. Isn't it more likely that with the second year of staggered increases in the salary cap that he will be resigned? Unless, of course, the Colts decide he's old and no longer worth the money, but I don't know that I see that happening.


Simple Zig, because they WANT him. Therefore he'll be available....


I can't see it happening though, he'll get franchised, and sign an 8 year deal that'll really be about 4 or 5.

KY - I'm not trying to engage in a KGB lovefest. If it came across that way, I was not very clear.

I just don't see the contract in the same light you do. There are so many needs elsewhere, I can't see Thompson spending a 1st round pick, and probably not a 2nd round pick on a DE. KGB's salary is not that bloated for another year, however, that assumes that his sack totals don't drop, just as packersnews.com claimed.

Finally, I'm disappointed you don't want to look at the numbers. I'm as disappointed in his production and his run stuffing abilities as you are, but, in my opinion, his contract numbers don't back up that perspective. Today, he's got a relatively pedestrian cap charge compared to the rest of the league DE's (that are not either on their rookie contract or in the first couple of years of a new deal).

If he gets canned, it's for two reasons, 1st he's a sherman guy, and 2nd they've got somebody else that I just don't see on the roster right now. If these two don't happen, he'll be here and probably finish out the remaining two years of that contract.

[jack's smirking revenge]

I don't see Freeney hitting the market

So the Colts are going to tie up 75% of their cap money in 3-4 players? The salary cap might cushion that blow, but the Colts are already topheavy.

I can't find a report on the Colts' salary cap situation, so I can't answer your question. My recollection is that the majority of that money is tied up in Manning, Wayne and Harrison. They need to lock up some players for the future on defense as well.

I don't know about you, but other than June, Freeney is the only player that I'd lock up long-term on that defense. I think it will be a priority for them in the off-season.

I could be wrong, but who knows...

tyler

[Zool]

I don't see Freeney hitting the market

So the Colts are going to tie up 75% of their cap money in 3-4 players? The salary cap might cushion that blow, but the Colts are already topheavy.

I can't find a report on the Colts' salary cap situation, so I can't answer your question. My recollection is that the majority of that money is tied up in Manning, Wayne and Harrison. They need to lock up some players for the future on defense as well.

I don't know about you, but other than June, Freeney is the only player that I'd lock up long-term on that defense. I think it will be a priority for them in the off-season.

I could be wrong, but who knows...

tyler

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/teamSalary?categoryId=67048

Here are the 2006 salaries, but not the cap hits.

[retailguy]

I can't find a report on the Colts' salary cap situation, so I can't answer your question. My recollection is that the majority of that money is tied up in Manning, Wayne and Harrison. They need to lock up some players for the future on defense as well.

I don't know about you, but other than June, Freeney is the only player that I'd lock up long-term on that defense. I think it will be a priority for them in the off-season.

I could be wrong, but who knows...

tyler

You aren't wrong JSR, they'll lock him up. There would be a riot in Indy if he got free. As long as he's willing to work a creative deal, he'll be there long term. If he isn't he'll play at least a couple of seasons on the franchise tag, ala Walter Jones.

[jack's smirking revenge]

I don't see Freeney hitting the market

So the Colts are going to tie up 75% of their cap money in 3-4 players? The salary cap might cushion that blow, but the Colts are already topheavy.

I can't find a report on the Colts' salary cap situation, so I can't answer your question. My recollection is that the majority of that money is tied up in Manning, Wayne and Harrison. They need to lock up some players for the future on defense as well.

I don't know about you, but other than June, Freeney is the only player that I'd lock up long-term on that defense. I think it will be a priority for them in the off-season.

I could be wrong, but who knows...

tyler

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/teamSalary?categoryId=67048

Here are the 2006 salaries, but not the cap hits.

Thanks for the link! Interesting how much $$$ they've got tied up in their offense and offensive line.

tyler

[RashanGary]

KGB's contract isn't so bad. I thing retailguy is right there.

It's his play that is the problem. He only had 8 sacks last year adn I would be surprised if he gets that many this year based in his obviously declining first step.

I think that explosive burst that RB's and pass rushers need is the first NFL skill to go. I know KGB is will only be 30 next year, but his only marketable skill has declined to a point where he is no longer efffective at the one thing he did well.

If he gets 5 sacks and looks like he has thus far in the season, I think he will need to be replaced.

He can't play the run and it looks like he's not very good at the pass anymore either. 3 games isn't everything, but he looks ot have lost that burst to me.

[Partial]

KGB's contract isn't so bad. I thing retailguy is right there.

It's his play that is the problem. He only had 8 sacks last year adn I would be surprised if he gets that many this year based in his obviously declining first step.

I think that explosive burst that RB's and pass rushers need is the first NFL skill to go. I know KGB is will only be 30 next year, but his only marketable skill has declined to a point where he is no longer efffective at the one thing he did well.

If he gets 5 sacks and looks like he has thus far in the season, I think he will need to be replaced.

He can't play the run and it looks like he's not very good at the pass anymore either. 3 games isn't everything, but he looks ot have lost that burst to me.

I have yet to see this first step decline that you mention. I would think we would have heard about it all summer for Cleft Crusty, but instead he continued to rave about how solid of a camp he had and how good of a player he is.

[KYPack]

If Freeney is that good why are we assuming that he's gonna actually hit free agency. Isn't it more likely that with the second year of staggered increases in the salary cap that he will be resigned? Unless, of course, the Colts decide he's old and no longer worth the money, but I don't know that I see that happening.


Simple Zig, because they WANT him. Therefore he'll be available....


I can't see it happening though, he'll get franchised, and sign an 8 year deal that'll really be about 4 or 5.

KY - I'm not trying to engage in a KGB lovefest. If it came across that way, I was not very clear.

I just don't see the contract in the same light you do. There are so many needs elsewhere, I can't see Thompson spending a 1st round pick, and probably not a 2nd round pick on a DE. KGB's salary is not that bloated for another year, however, that assumes that his sack totals don't drop, just as packersnews.com claimed.

Finally, I'm disappointed you don't want to look at the numbers. I'm as disappointed in his production and his run stuffing abilities as you are, but, in my opinion, his contract numbers don't back up that perspective. Today, he's got a relatively pedestrian cap charge compared to the rest of the league DE's (that are not either on their rookie contract or in the first couple of years of a new deal).

If he gets canned, it's for two reasons, 1st he's a sherman guy, and 2nd they've got somebody else that I just don't see on the roster right now. If these two don't happen, he'll be here and probably finish out the remaining two years of that contract.

That's fine and reasonable to boot.

The reason I don't wanna compare with other DE's is they will all be 3 down guys. Kabeer ain't a 3 down DE anymore. He's a situation sub that is gonna get 5 mil next year. That ya can't find in the league. I think he'll get picked up and make a mil to 1.5 for somebody next year.

Man I was amazed at the Colt data. WTF did Freeny do to get such a low contract #? Izzat his his rookie deal?

How about Ryan Diem making 7 mil per?
He must have to dress and shower somewhere else so he don't get shanked coming out of the shower!

[Partial]

Zooly,

That thing has salaries but not cap numbers. They're just a hair below it do to bonuses and whatnot. Payton is making about 10 a year. Marvin is making about 8 a year. Simon is making about 5-6 mil a year. Tarik Glenn is making about 5 mil a year. Mathis is making about 5 mil a year. Stokely is getting prolly 3.5. Wayne is getting about 6. Diem is getting 7. Rhodes, Saturday, Jackson are getting about 3.

As you can see, they have a lot of big salaries with large bonuses. Tack on an extra 10-12 mil a year for Freeney, and they will be in trouble.

Essentially, the point I am saying is that site is telling about half the story.

[mmmdk]

I think KGB will be great when we sign Freeney next offseason...

think about it...TT wants to be Wolf reincarnate...Wolf signed a STUD DE...Freeney is available next year and we have cap room...

Oh I'd like Freeney to be a Packer but we'd have to overpay him to go to Green Bay. It could be worth it.

[mmmdk]

I think that for the money he makes, we could find someone who is at least as ineffective as he is. I absolutely hate Hunter and the fact he made the team says we suck in a nutshell. But I would rather have him trying to ineffectively speed rush while being destroyed on running plays for 3.5 million less than KGB.

You know him (Hunter)? The guy kicked ass in college (div.II). I think he's a super project to have on the team. If he doesn't work then so what!? Have you all forgotten...we're rebuilding...sure Packers beat the Lions. Say that again: THE LIONS The fact that Hunter is a cheap rookie doesn't mean he's without talent. Anyways, KGB will probably not be a Packer next year.

[Zool]

Zooly,

That thing has salaries but not cap numbers. They're just a hair below it do to bonuses and whatnot. Payton is making about 10 a year. Marvin is making about 8 a year. Simon is making about 5-6 mil a year. Tarik Glenn is making about 5 mil a year. Mathis is making about 5 mil a year. Stokely is getting prolly 3.5. Wayne is getting about 6. Diem is getting 7. Rhodes, Saturday, Jackson are getting about 3.

As you can see, they have a lot of big salaries with large bonuses. Tack on an extra 10-12 mil a year for Freeney, and they will be in trouble.

Essentially, the point I am saying is that site is telling about half the story.Partial...I just spotted this post of yours. I actually wrote this...


http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/teamSalary?categoryId=67048

Here are the 2006 salaries, but not the cap hits.I couldnt find the cap #'s anywhere for the Colts.

[Partial]

Zooly,

That thing has salaries but not cap numbers. They're just a hair below it do to bonuses and whatnot. Payton is making about 10 a year. Marvin is making about 8 a year. Simon is making about 5-6 mil a year. Tarik Glenn is making about 5 mil a year. Mathis is making about 5 mil a year. Stokely is getting prolly 3.5. Wayne is getting about 6. Diem is getting 7. Rhodes, Saturday, Jackson are getting about 3.

As you can see, they have a lot of big salaries with large bonuses. Tack on an extra 10-12 mil a year for Freeney, and they will be in trouble.

Essentially, the point I am saying is that site is telling about half the story.Partial...I just spotted this post of yours. I actually wrote this...


http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/teamSalary?categoryId=67048

Here are the 2006 salaries, but not the cap hits.I couldnt find the cap #'s anywhere for the Colts.

Oh I missed that, my bad! :wink:

[SkinBasket]

The fact that Hunter is a cheap rookie doesn't mean he's without talent. Anyways, KGB will probably not be a Packer next year.

No. The fact he doesn't have any talent means he's without talent. Hunter was one of the guys that got a ton of playing time in the preseason. What he demonstrated is that he is a less effective version of KGB. He has one "move," the outside rush, which often left his side of the line wide open for the QB to step up into or the RB to run to unchallenged. It would have been fine if he had created some pressure, but he didn't. Against the run, he was usually out of position due to his reliance on running ten to fifteen yards deep into the backfield (even then he couldn't get around the blocker but once or twice), or when he did try to simply hold the corner, he wuold get mauled by the 2nd - 4th string OL.

Hunter has speed. That is all he has. Unless there are secret plans to convert him to a pass rushing specialist from the LB position, he's never going to move beyond the "project" stage.

[mmmdk]

The fact that Hunter is a cheap rookie doesn't mean he's without talent. Anyways, KGB will probably not be a Packer next year.

No. The fact he doesn't have any talent means he's without talent. Hunter was one of the guys that got a ton of playing time in the preseason. What he demonstrated is that he is a less effective version of KGB. He has one "move," the outside rush, which often left his side of the line wide open for the QB to step up into or the RB to run to unchallenged. It would have been fine if he had created some pressure, but he didn't. Against the run, he was usually out of position due to his reliance on running ten to fifteen yards deep into the backfield (even then he couldn't get around the blocker but once or twice), or when he did try to simply hold the corner, he wuold get mauled by the 2nd - 4th string OL.

Hunter has speed. That is all he has. Unless there are secret plans to convert him to a pass rushing specialist from the LB position, he's never going to move beyond the "project" stage.

You are wise beyond words :roll: Still, your last comment about Hunter being a pass rushing specialist from the LB position might have some merit. Tracey White was released (not that Hunter & White's play resembles in any way) and Hunter could be converted to a LB. Ok, so I actually drank a little kool-aid on Hunter, I just like what little I saw from pre-season plus words out of camp. Well, I sipped some kool-aid but I still believe a 6-10 season is going to be tough to accomplish but it beats being a grumpy & creepy rat :mrgreen:

[SkinBasket]

You are wise beyond words :roll:

Don't get all pissy because I explained in detail why Hunter is a below average position player when you assumed I simply thought he was a low budget rookie.


Ok, so I actually drank a little kool-aid on Hunter, I just like what little I saw from pre-season plus words out of camp. Well, I sipped some kool-aid but I still believe a 6-10 season is going to be tough to accomplish but it beats being a grumpy & creepy rat :mrgreen:

I don't get why so many people have a boner about this guy, but you aren't alone. I guess a lot of people were moved by the JS "oprah" piece on the guy. I was moved in a different direction when I watched him all preseason and he sucked.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I didn't see much out of Hunter to get excited about.

But I'm prejudiced against tweeners.

[retailguy]

Just found this on profootballweekly whispers section:

DLE Aaron Kampman is among the league leaders in sacks this year after signing a lucrative long-term deal this offseason, but we hear that he still benefits from the double-teams that teammate Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila commands. In fact, two of Kampman’s sacks against the Saints came against a tight end, and while he’s a cagey and intelligent player, we’re told he doesn’t possess the speed or athleticism to contend with double-teams if he’s game-planned against.


I bring this up because of the KGB part about him being double teamed. If KGB can command a double team and leave a TE on Kampman that's good for the overall defense.... and was very good for Kampman in terms of his new contract.

Basically it's the point I was trying to make earlier in the week. :wink: I'd pat myself on the back, but am afraid I'd break my arm... :mrgreen:

Not saying it is "worth" the packers paying 5mil a year, thats not the point, however, DC's seem to value KGB more than some of the guys in this forum, perhaps even including me.

[KYPack]

Just found this on profootballweekly whispers section:

DLE Aaron Kampman is among the league leaders in sacks this year after signing a lucrative long-term deal this offseason, but we hear that he still benefits from the double-teams that teammate Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila commands. In fact, two of Kampman’s sacks against the Saints came against a tight end, and while he’s a cagey and intelligent player, we’re told he doesn’t possess the speed or athleticism to contend with double-teams if he’s game-planned against.


I bring this up because of the KGB part about him being double teamed. If KGB can command a double team and leave a TE on Kampman that's good for the overall defense.... and was very good for Kampman in terms of his new contract.

Basically it's the point I was trying to make earlier in the week. :wink: I'd pat myself on the back, but am afraid I'd break my arm... :mrgreen:

Not saying it is "worth" the packers paying 5mil a year, thats not the point, however, DC's seem to value KGB more than some of the guys in this forum, perhaps even including me.

Hold on Kool-aid kid.

I haven't seen KGB in any double teams this season.

i just reviewd a couple games on tape and meant to post that Kabeer's play is better in spots than i noticed before, but he not playing at a level than would warrant a double team.

Don't quote these rags, watch the tape & point out the plays.

I repeat my earlie view. He's not a 3 down DE and his play doesn't merit his salary level. Cut KGB and spend 6 million per on a 3 down DE that can stuff the run and rush the QB.

[RashanGary]

KY...

I agree that KGB isn't that bad. I agree with what you're saying and he'll just get worse with every year.

KGB will be 30 years old next season. He'll never be as good as he is now and he's not as good right now as he was 2 years ago.

He might have another season in his legs but you can only speed rush for so long and it drops off. It's already dropping off. I havn't seen KGB turn the corner like he did 2 or 3 years ago and dominate a tackle.

His best days are behind him.

While we could probably get by with him for 1 more year, I'd rather start searching for a replacement. I believe a dominate pass rusher would make a big difference on this team. In fact, it's my #1 hope for next off season.

If he was smart, he'd lengthen his career with some HGH :)

[SkinBasket]

Just found this on profootballweekly whispers section:

DLE Aaron Kampman is among the league leaders in sacks this year after signing a lucrative long-term deal this offseason, but we hear that he still benefits from the double-teams that teammate Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila commands. In fact, two of Kampman’s sacks against the Saints came against a tight end, and while he’s a cagey and intelligent player, we’re told he doesn’t possess the speed or athleticism to contend with double-teams if he’s game-planned against.


I bring this up because of the KGB part about him being double teamed. If KGB can command a double team and leave a TE on Kampman that's good for the overall defense.... and was very good for Kampman in terms of his new contract.

Basically it's the point I was trying to make earlier in the week. :wink: I'd pat myself on the back, but am afraid I'd break my arm... :mrgreen:

Not saying it is "worth" the packers paying 5mil a year, thats not the point, however, DC's seem to value KGB more than some of the guys in this forum, perhaps even including me.


This last game, Kampman was doubled 46% of his snaps. WTF is KGB doing on those? Spinning in circles and getting pancaked is my bet.

[Fritz]

"I don't get why so many people have a boner about this guy,"

I feel the same way about Tom Cruise.

KGB is still starting, which tells us that there's no DE on the roster who is better, at the moment. Bet a DE is high on TT's wish list for next year.

Anybody who's had any tape to watch, how does Mike Montgomery look?

[Bretsky]

Montgomery showed a few flashes of being a player in one of the three games.

[Tony Oday]

If you havent seen KGB get doubled then you have been watching the guys in purple this season we are in green and gold.

Freeney will be a free agent next year because they cant afford his contract and cant afford to franchise him. They have everything wrapped up on the other side of the ball this is the last year of their window.

Put these two guys on a line and rotate KGB out on 1st and 2nd downs with Kamp or since Kamp is having a GREAT year thus far maybe he will garner interest on the trade market.

[MJZiggy]

Why would you trade Kampman if he's having a great year? Aren't you supposed to keep the ones that are performing?

[Harlan Huckleby]

Put these two guys on a line and rotate KGB out on 1st and 2nd downs with Kamp or since Kamp is having a GREAT year thus far maybe he will garner interest on the trade market.

you lost me.

[retailguy]

Why would you trade Kampman if he's having a great year? Aren't you supposed to keep the ones that are performing?

I think he meant that "tongue in cheek". I don't think he's impressed with Kampman.

Ok, other quotes..... not by ziggy


KGB is still starting, which tells us that there's no DE on the roster who is better, at the moment. Bet a DE is high on TT's wish list for next year.

I agree with this, we've got nobody else who is better than KGB even on run downs. I don't agree it's any higher on his wish list than the other 15 positions that need upgrades. If he can get one, he will, if he can't he won't cut KGB, and I'm not sure he'll cut him either.


Montgomery showed a few flashes of being a player in one of the three games.

Agree, but not in relation to being a run stopper. I see nothing that indicates that he can replace KGB even on 1st downs. The flashes that I saw were him getting penetration. We need a run stopper...


If you havent seen KGB get doubled then you have been watching the guys in purple this season we are in green and gold.

This has been my experience... KY, I haven't taped any games this year and don't intend to start. It is simply too painful. I have ZERO desire to rewatch these games, even for a specific purpose.

The allegation that KGB isn't being double teamed is asinine. Look, I'm not bashing at you, nor am I trying to start a fight. But, in basic formation it's 5 OL on 4 DL... Someone is always double teamed. Then you add a TE in the mix and it's 6 on 4.

So. What I saw in the Detroit game was this - (and I only watched periodically, personally I'd rather watch the opposing offense than our defense),
but, I saw the LT and the LG on KGB, the Center on Pickett/Williams, the RG on the three technique, typically Jenkins, and the RT/TE on Kampman. Occasionally, the RT would slide and double Jenkins leaving the TE on Kampman, and occasionally the RT would take Kampman and the TE would go catch a pass in front of Poopinga....

So, I'm either crazy and Detroit played without a LG, or, Pickett got a whole bunch more double teams than I saw. My biggest gripe this whole season has been that Pickett hasn't commanded more double teams. I believe that this allows them to double KGB more often, and that's NOT a good thing.

I'm gonna go clean my glasses now, so I'm ready for Monday night, and, sorry KY, I'm not taping NOTHING this season. I do not want to watch it again. It is simply too painful. I'm not enjoying this rebuilding AT ALL.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think he meant that "tongue in cheek". I don't think he's impressed with Kampman.

This is a rough crowd. I can't think of a single Packer player that hasn't been dismissed by some fans. Brett Favre - maybe until the last 2 or 3 years nobody dared say he was a crappy player.

Look at the best players on the defense - Nick Barnett, Kampman, Al Harris - they've all taken a TON of criticism the last 3 years.

Every player is somebody's idea of a crappy player, almost without exception.

[HarveyWallbangers]

That's true Harlan. Even old reliable, Chad Clifton, playing hurt, is not immune. About the only guy that has gotten a pass is the local boy, Mark Tauscher. Even Donald Driver has his detractors. At least, we aren't seeing the Driver is a decent #2 receiver but nothing more posts right now.

[RashanGary]

That's true Harlan. Even old reliable, Chad Clifton, playing hurt, is not immune. About the only guy that has gotten a pass is the local boy, Mark Tauscher. Even Donald Driver has his detractors. At least, we aren't seeing the Driver is a decent #2 receiver but nothing more posts right now.

LOL...

AJ Hawk and Greg Jennings are working their way up the list of untouchables but we still have bulldog preaching about Mario the zero sack wonder :)

[KYPack]

Why would you trade Kampman if he's having a great year? Aren't you supposed to keep the ones that are performing?

I think he meant that "tongue in cheek". I don't think he's impressed with Kampman.

Ok, other quotes..... not by ziggy


KGB is still starting, which tells us that there's no DE on the roster who is better, at the moment. Bet a DE is high on TT's wish list for next year.

I agree with this, we've got nobody else who is better than KGB even on run downs. I don't agree it's any higher on his wish list than the other 15 positions that need upgrades. If he can get one, he will, if he can't he won't cut KGB, and I'm not sure he'll cut him either.


Montgomery showed a few flashes of being a player in one of the three games.

Agree, but not in relation to being a run stopper. I see nothing that indicates that he can replace KGB even on 1st downs. The flashes that I saw were him getting penetration. We need a run stopper...


If you havent seen KGB get doubled then you have been watching the guys in purple this season we are in green and gold.

This has been my experience... KY, I haven't taped any games this year and don't intend to start. It is simply too painful. I have ZERO desire to rewatch these games, even for a specific purpose.

The allegation that KGB isn't being double teamed is asinine. Look, I'm not bashing at you, nor am I trying to start a fight. But, in basic formation it's 5 OL on 4 DL... Someone is always double teamed. Then you add a TE in the mix and it's 6 on 4.

So. What I saw in the Detroit game was this - (and I only watched periodically, personally I'd rather watch the opposing offense than our defense),
but, I saw the LT and the LG on KGB, the Center on Pickett/Williams, the RG on the three technique, typically Jenkins, and the RT/TE on Kampman. Occasionally, the RT would slide and double Jenkins leaving the TE on Kampman, and occasionally the RT would take Kampman and the TE would go catch a pass in front of Poopinga....

So, I'm either crazy and Detroit played without a LG, or, Pickett got a whole bunch more double teams than I saw. My biggest gripe this whole season has been that Pickett hasn't commanded more double teams. I believe that this allows them to double KGB more often, and that's NOT a good thing.

I'm gonna go clean my glasses now, so I'm ready for Monday night, and, sorry KY, I'm not taping NOTHING this season. I do not want to watch it again. It is simply too painful. I'm not enjoying this rebuilding AT ALL.

I'm with ya.

I still watch the tape, and reprrise what's happened.

Force of habit, I guess. iIgive up, essentially. I say KGB is in his final season, you say he's become a bargain of sorts. Let's let time sort it out.