Bob Sanders

[HarveyWallbangers]

There's a lot of truth in this article by Havel. Right now, that seems unfortunate for McCarthy. I hope they can right this ship, and we don't have to sit through another 2004 like defensive season.

McCarthy's future hinges on Sanders' success
By Chris Havel

Mike McCarthy's most important decision of his National Football League coaching career occurred months ago.

When the Green Bay Packers' coach named Bob Sanders his defensive coordinator on Jan. 21, McCarthy placed his future to a great degree in the hands of a man he had known for several weeks.

McCarthy's instincts may be proven correct. He cited several reasons for selecting Sanders. He appreciated Sanders' candor, admired his work ethic and respected his pedigree.

Sanders, 52, a Jim Bates disciple, brought continuity. The Packers were working on their fourth defensive coordinator in five years, and McCarthy valued Sanders' ability to build upon Bates' scheme.

McCarthy's reasoning seemed logical.

In 2005, Bates inherited a patchwork defense with few legitimate playmakers, and somehow elevated it from 25th in yards allowed to seventh overall and first against the pass. Those rankings were misleading in that opposing teams typically grabbed early leads and milked the clock by running the ball. Rarely did opponents have to pass to overcome a deficit.

Nevertheless, Bates wiped clean Bob Slowik's fingerprints and forged ahead with one gutsy performance after another.

In a sense, Sanders was hired to pick up where Bates left off. Ted Thompson, the Packers' general manager, signed defensive tackle Ryan Pickett, cornerback Charles Woodson and safety Marquand Manuel in free agency. He re-signed defensive end Aaron Kampman, and spent the fifth pick in the draft to acquire linebacker A.J. Hawk.

Through three games, the new defensive coordinator and the influx of talent have produced the NFL's 31st-ranked unit. The pass rush has been inconsistent, the run defense spotty and the pass defense unacceptable.

The Packers' defense has made Chicago's Rex Grossman, New Orleans' Drew Brees and Detroit's Jon Kitna look like Sid Luckman, Archie Manning and Bobby Layne.

If the trend continues, Philadelphia's Donovan McNabb is going to morph into an unstoppable, freakish combination of Norm Van Brocklin and Randall Cunningham come Monday night's Packers-Eagles game.

Where are Mike Boryla and Joe Pisarcik when you need them? For that matter, where is a Packers safety when you need one?

The better question: Will Sanders correct the mistakes, improve the communication and get the defense on track?

McCarthy, like Mike Holmgren before him, had better hope so. McCarthy is an offensive-minded coach. Ditto for Holmgren. The difference is Holmgren had Ray Rhodes, and then Fritz Shurmur, to coordinate his defenses in Green Bay.

When Shurmur died in summer 1999, Holmgren suffered personally and professionally. The Seahawks went 9-7, 6-10, 9-7 and 7-9 under one of the NFL's top head coaches before finding postseason success.

If a coach as renowned as Holmgren struggled without his right-hand man, what is McCarthy to do if Sanders isn't the right man for the job?

Kurt Schottenheimer, the Packers' defensive backs coach, has drawn fan and media criticism in his second go-round here. Certainly, he is responsible for the pass defense's substandard play.

Ultimately, the onus falls on Sanders. If he finds a way to tighten up a sievelike defense the Packers' future — and McCarthy's — looks solid. If not, McCarthy wouldn't be the first NFL coach to be doomed before he started.

[GBRulz]

Based on the attitude that M3 isn't afraid to bench his players if they aren't playing up to par, I would have to think that he wouldn't hesitate to tell Sander & Schottenheimer to take a hike after the season if this kind of performance keeps up.

Our defense should be better than last year with all the upgrades to the D. This is definitely the fault of coaching. Granted, it would help our D if we could actually have a DC that lasts more than one season around here... Sander is not one I'd like to see stick around at this point.

[BooHoo]

Based on the attitude that M3 isn't afraid to bench his players if they aren't playing up to par, I would have to think that he wouldn't hesitate to tell Sander & Schottenheimer to take a hike after the season if this kind of performance keeps up.

Our defense should be better than last year with all the upgrades to the D. This is definitely the fault of coaching. Granted, it would help our D if we could actually have a DC that lasts more than one season around here... Sander is not one I'd like to see stick around at this point.

All of our new coaching staff is suspect. I understand we need to give them time to get their act together but I would hate to see another "stellar" year like last year. And with Philly coming up on Monday night we face an imposing offense. Somehow we need to pull this one together or it could be a long evening.

[LEWCWA]

They are playing like ass! time to put up or shut up!!

[Kiwon]

Given that Jim Bates was Bob Sanders' mentor, I wonder if the two have consulted over what is taking place. I have not heard Bates' name come up except in relation to the HC position.

Anyone heard anything about the two talking?

[Tarlam!]

Sanders aint no Bates, but Schittenheimer was M3's idea IIRC. That to my mind was the single dumbest thing M3 did.

Sanders' hiring, to me, was the single most logical decision he made. I still maintain I would have done that myself in that situation.

I would oust Schittenheimer after the Philly game if McNabb rips us a new one in the secondary. I would already have a plan "B" for a replacemet secondray coaching staff ready to rock Tuesday morning if we get sieved again. I would not even wait to evaluate the film.

I would call in Kurt and say "Kurt, I know you were the guy that gave me my first coaching job. I thank you for that. But, Kurt, at this rate, you will be the guy that costs me my first HC job. Sorry, Kurt, can't let that happen. Bye Kurt".

That signal to the players is also one that M3 not only holds them accountable, but also himself and his coaches. If TT can cut his mistakes quickly and bloddlessly, so can M3.

[wist43]

Everybody, except the most deranged Kool-Aid addict, sees that the defense is an unmitigated disaster.

Congress should pass legislation preventing Schottenheimer from ever coaching again - on any level. But if we as Monday morning GM's can see that, what does that say about Sanders, McCarthy, and TT???

The defense has regressed to nearly Slowik depths of dysfunction... Hopefully Sanders will be out of a job 0.000000001 seconds after the Packers get their asses waxed by the Bears in the season finale.

[Tarlam!]

Hopefully Sanders will be out of a job 0.000000001 seconds after the Packers get their asses waxed by the Bears in the season finale.

Why wait till then? This Tuesday seems like a great time....

[RashanGary]

Everybody, except the most deranged Kool-Aid addict, sees that the defense is an unmitigated disaster.

Congress should pass legislation preventing Schottenheimer from ever coaching again - on any level. But if we as Monday morning GM's can see that, what does that say about Sanders, McCarthy, and TT???

The defense has regressed to nearly Slowik depths of dysfunction... Hopefully Sanders will be out of a job 0.000000001 seconds after the Packers get their asses waxed by the Bears in the season finale.

LMFAO...

I'm holding out hope that he adjusts and gets it fixed. He may have tried to complicate things and separate himself from Bates and now he has to adjust and go back to the basics. YOu never know by 3 games, but I agree it sure doesn't look good right now.

If they play like this all season, it won't just be Kurt S. who gets canned. Sanders will be with him in the unemployment line.

[SD GB fan]

question..do packers hafta to wait until the end of season to fire a coach?

[HarveyWallbangers]

question..do packers hafta to wait until the end of season to fire a coach?

No, but it would be HIGHLY unlikely that they would fire first year coaches during the season. What kind of message does that send to coaches they would try to attract? We may not even give you a year to prove yourself.

[Kiwon]

question..do packers hafta to wait until the end of season to fire a coach?

No, but it would be HIGHLY unlikely that they would fire first year coaches during the season. What kind of message does that send to coaches they would try to attract? We may not even give you a year to prove yourself.

Agreed. It's called a coaching fraternity for a reason. Like Harvey said, recruiting other quality assistants becomes harder if they feel that they are under the gun to excel immediately or have to leave town.

Also, MM is a rookie head coach. He's can't axe coaches during the season without damaging his own reputation. Like everyone else, he'll need to interview for another NFL job in the future. These guys make enemies as easily as they make friends. He won't play megalomaniac and start firing people to make himself look good at the risk of ruining his reputation and future employment.

[vince]

Everybody, except the most deranged Kool-Aid addict, sees that the defense is an unmitigated disaster.

Congress should pass legislation preventing Schottenheimer from ever coaching again - on any level. But if we as Monday morning GM's can see that, what does that say about Sanders, McCarthy, and TT???

The defense has regressed to nearly Slowik depths of dysfunction... Hopefully Sanders will be out of a job 0.000000001 seconds after the Packers get their asses waxed by the Bears in the season finale.
Wist, do you drive your car by always looking only in the rear view mirror? You're going to crash by doing that...

Having VISION entails using FORESIGHT.

It doesn't take a "deranged kool-aid addiction" to see that this defense has been hurt by being unprepared and not communicating like they should. These deficiencies will be addressed with experience working together and a lot of film time. Their problems are not founded in a lack of talent.

Some people that are clueless are built to stay that way, but here's a clue for you. Prove me wrong and take it...

Constantly looking at the past is no way to go through life. Use some imagination and envision the future. It's a lot of fun when you try. And the more you try it, the better you'll get at it.

[wist43]

Everybody, except the most deranged Kool-Aid addict, sees that the defense is an unmitigated disaster.

Congress should pass legislation preventing Schottenheimer from ever coaching again - on any level. But if we as Monday morning GM's can see that, what does that say about Sanders, McCarthy, and TT???

The defense has regressed to nearly Slowik depths of dysfunction... Hopefully Sanders will be out of a job 0.000000001 seconds after the Packers get their asses waxed by the Bears in the season finale.
Wist, do you drive your car by always looking only in the rear view mirror? You're going to crash by doing that...

Having VISION entails using FORESIGHT.

It doesn't take a "deranged kool-aid addiction" to see that this defense has been hurt by being unprepared and not communicating like they should. These deficiencies will be addressed with experience working together and a lot of film time. Their problems are not founded in a lack of talent.

Some people that are clueless are built to stay that way, but here's a clue for you. Prove me wrong and take it...

Constantly looking at the past is no way to go through life. Use some imagination and envision the future. It's a lot of fun when you try. And the more you try it, the better you'll get at it.

Vince, I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here - other than an odd attempt to give me a driving lesson... you been hittin the hooch???

Although I can say this about having a vision of the future...

25 years ago, I woke up on a buddies couch after a hard night of partying... I went to the fridge and began to guzzle what I thought was a jug of water - turned out to be the hottest moonshine I've ever had the misfortune of pouring down my gullet - I saw the future that morning, but passed back out, and the clouds reappeared. Been lookin in the "rear view mirror" ever since, trying to reconnect to that elusive vision all those years ago... Alas, it is a sad existence. :cry:

[vince]

Everybody, except the most deranged Kool-Aid addict, sees that the defense is an unmitigated disaster.

Congress should pass legislation preventing Schottenheimer from ever coaching again - on any level. But if we as Monday morning GM's can see that, what does that say about Sanders, McCarthy, and TT???

The defense has regressed to nearly Slowik depths of dysfunction... Hopefully Sanders will be out of a job 0.000000001 seconds after the Packers get their asses waxed by the Bears in the season finale.
Wist, do you drive your car by always looking only in the rear view mirror? You're going to crash by doing that...

Having VISION entails using FORESIGHT.

It doesn't take a "deranged kool-aid addiction" to see that this defense has been hurt by being unprepared and not communicating like they should. These deficiencies will be addressed with experience working together and a lot of film time. Their problems are not founded in a lack of talent.

Some people that are clueless are built to stay that way, but here's a clue for you. Prove me wrong and take it...

Constantly looking at the past is no way to go through life. Use some imagination and envision the future. It's a lot of fun when you try. And the more you try it, the better you'll get at it.

Vince, I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here - other than an odd attempt to give me a driving lesson... you been hittin the hooch???

Although I can say this about having a vision of the future...

25 years ago, I woke up on a buddies couch after a hard night of partying... I went to the fridge and began to guzzle what I thought was a jug of water - turned out to be the hottest moonshine I've ever had the misfortune of pouring down my gullet - I saw the future that morning, but passed back out, and the clouds reappeared. Been lookin in the "rear view mirror" ever since, trying to reconnect to that elusive vision all those years ago... Alas, it is a sad existence. :cry:
:lol: Wist, I'm just trying to say that what has been so far this year (a pass defense that has not been effective) doesn't mean that they will suck all year. Using the past as the only indicator of the future is what people who lack the insight to analyze a situation for what it really is do.

And the people who use their knowledge and experience to analyze a situation and accurately predict changes that ultimately occur eat those who lack the capacity to do so for lunch... in business, in life, and on this board.

To predict that this defense will improve is not evidence of a "deranged kool-aid addiction" as you indicate. It's simply looking at the current and past, and using experience and knowledge about what's really happening to make predictions about the future.

It may not happen this week, as the best offense in the league can make defenses with far more experience in working together than the Packers currently possess look bad, but this defense will get better in time. Bank on it.

[wist43]

Vince, saying the defense will improve doesn't exactly put you in Nostrodomus's company...

They can't get any worse.

Beyond that, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is insanity - rehiring Kurt Schottenheimer was insane... and the pass defense will be a dysfunctional mess as long as that idiot is the secondary coach.

[Harlan Huckleby]

rehiring Kurt Schottenheimer was insane... and the pass defense will be a dysfunctional mess as long as that idiot is the secondary coach.

Wist, I always dismiss your arguments about position coaches and scouting directors. Sorry, just a matter of policy - I don't believe fans have enough insight to make such an evaluation, too many variables.

[mraynrand]

rehiring Kurt Schottenheimer was insane... and the pass defense will be a dysfunctional mess as long as that idiot is the secondary coach.

Wist, I always dismiss your arguments about position coaches and scouting directors. Sorry, just a matter of policy - I don't believe fans have enough insight to make such an evaluation, too many variables.

What worries me is when I see the coaches arguing with each other after a blown assignment, and then NEVER talk to the players before they send them back on the field. That's what I think happened after the D yeilded that TD to Williams last Sunday. I don't think it made it on TV, but I got a good look at it from 40 rows up.

[Terry]

Beyond that, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is insanity - rehiring Kurt Schottenheimer was insane... and the pass defense will be a dysfunctional mess as long as that idiot is the secondary coach.
That's funny. Things have changed since I was there. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results used to fall under the "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again" principle.

[the_idle_threat]

Beyond that, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is insanity - rehiring Kurt Schottenheimer was insane... and the pass defense will be a dysfunctional mess as long as that idiot is the secondary coach.
That's funny. Things have changed since I was there. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results used to fall under the "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again" principle.

IMO, the difference depends on whether you are doing the same thing over and over again (insanity) or are trying different things each time (if at first you don't succeed ... ) in the effort to accomplish the result.

[Tarlam!]

Last night, I watched Bobby Jones, the DVD. His caddie said to him something like "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, but expecting a different result each time".

[vince]

Last night, I watched Bobby Jones, the DVD. His caddie said to him something like "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, but expecting a different result each time".
Insanity is expecting that any professional coach in the NFL, when faced with failure, will do the same thing over and over.

These first games provided ample opportunity for motivation and correction. We'll see who's right as the season progresses, but I think the secondary will be more and more effective as time goes on. Wist, you obviously don't.

There are some things you can teach, and some things you can't. The things that ail the Packers' secondary at this early stage of the season, IMO, are correctable.

In 2004, guys like Joey Thomas, Bawoh Jue, Ahmad Carroll (as a rookie no less), and Mark Roman saw significant action. These guys were seriously wet behind the ears, and/or just weren't very good. You can't give someone on-the-field experience in the film room, or teach them how to have the talent to succeed, which is why we saw little or no improvement in their performance over the course of the season.

Al Harris may be losing a step, but this year's secondary's primary problem thus far is poor communication and coordination. This is a partly a result of poor coaching IMO, but these are eminently correctable problems - even by Schottzie. As this group learns more about where each other will be and how they play, they'll become more effective.

Ineffective coaching will make it take longer, but Schottzie can't take this group's talent away from them. If they stay healthy, it'll ultimately rise up.

[red]

is there anyway we could bring back bates as a co-headcoach? or just an assistant head coach in charge of quality control?

just someone to make sure the team was fired up and had their heads out of their asses for the game. we could give him a big title and money

he would be like the second guy in charge of the entire team

[wist43]

Beyond that, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is insanity - rehiring Kurt Schottenheimer was insane... and the pass defense will be a dysfunctional mess as long as that idiot is the secondary coach.
That's funny. Things have changed since I was there. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results used to fall under the "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again" principle.

That doesn't mean you keep doing it the same way... Of course, everyone is familiar the story of Edison being confronted with failing to successfully construct a lightbulb after 2,000 tries - to which he replied that he had successfully found 2,000 ways how NOT to build a lightbulb.

I don't think Schottenheimer is smart enough, or clever enough, to view his failures in this way... so, "if at first you don't succeed..."

I'm sure Kurt scratches his head after every Packer defensive debacle and wonders "what went wrong, it should have worked... I'll try it again!!!"

[wist43]

rehiring Kurt Schottenheimer was insane... and the pass defense will be a dysfunctional mess as long as that idiot is the secondary coach.

Wist, I always dismiss your arguments about position coaches and scouting directors. Sorry, just a matter of policy - I don't believe fans have enough insight to make such an evaluation, too many variables.

HH, you must be the most docile of democratic subjects - blindly accepting mediocrity and stupidity... afterall, "they're the experts - who are we to presume to criticize???"

Perhaps I should henceforth chant mantra's of "prosperity thru greater taxation" as the "experts" in government tell me they need my money to champion the greater good... afterall, there are too many variables for a small minded plebian like myself, awash amongst the masses, to comprehend.

[Tarlam!]

That's BOMNF, Wisty, BOMNF!!!

[Fritz]

"He's can't axe coaches during the season without damaging his own reputation."

Maybe you can't axe them, but you can aks them what the f--- problem is. I do wonder if MM is putting any heat on Sh_ttenheimer to "fix" (or fiks) the troubles in the secondary. If communication is the problem, as the mantra currently suggests, it's time to talk, babies.

I too like the idea of bringing Bates back. Screw it. As a fan I don't have to worry about the message that gets sent to the rest of the coaches in the league, or worry about consistency on the staff. I can just say I liked the defense better when Barnett was the Master of Bates. So what the hell. Hire Bates back, shove Sander aside - let him be an assistant defensive aide, or fire him, or whatever - and then drop Sh-ttenheimer like a hot rock and get this defense fiksed.

Man, I love being a fan sometimes.

[MJZiggy]

rehiring Kurt Schottenheimer was insane... and the pass defense will be a dysfunctional mess as long as that idiot is the secondary coach.

Wist, I always dismiss your arguments about position coaches and scouting directors. Sorry, just a matter of policy - I don't believe fans have enough insight to make such an evaluation, too many variables.

HH, you must be the most docile of democratic subjects - blindly accepting mediocrity and stupidity... afterall, "they're the experts - who are we to presume to criticize???"

Perhaps I should henceforth chant mantra's of "prosperity thru greater taxation" as the "experts" in government tell me they need my money to champion the greater good... afterall, there are too many variables for a small minded plebian like myself, awash amongst the masses, to comprehend.

Do I smell a Plebian Rat?

[Harlan Huckleby]

rehiring Kurt Schottenheimer was insane... and the pass defense will be a dysfunctional mess as long as that idiot is the secondary coach.

Wist, I always dismiss your arguments about position coaches and scouting directors. Sorry, just a matter of policy - I don't believe fans have enough insight to make such an evaluation, too many variables.

HH, you must be the most docile of democratic subjects - blindly accepting mediocrity and stupidity... afterall, "they're the experts - who are we to presume to criticize???"

Perhaps I should henceforth chant mantra's of "prosperity thru greater taxation" as the "experts" in government tell me they need my money to champion the greater good... afterall, there are too many variables for a small minded plebian like myself, awash amongst the masses, to comprehend.


:lol: Well, funny that you see this is liberal/conservative terms.

I don't assume that the assistant coaches are any good. I doubt a fan's ability to isolate the quality of the position coaches from the quality of the players at the position, quality of players on rest of the defensive/offensive unit, the decisions of the coordinator, decisions of the head coaches, decisions of the GM.

Do you beleive that Larry Beightol deserved to be fired as offensive line coach last year? Or was that Sherman's fault?

I'll giv you this much, you are not lacking for bravado!