Does Carroll have some compromising pictures of TT?

[b bulldog]

Just wondering because I can think of no other reason why he is still playing.

[Tony Oday]

yup

[PTPaQ]

Hes playing because sadly, he is our 3rd best corner. Something we are unable to change until next year.

[Tarlam!]

I will continue to defend our DBs, including Carrol, until they have a decent coach.

Carrol improved remarkably last season. His development this year has been stymied.

This cannot be a coincidence.

[Tarlam!]

Posted October 3, 2006

Chris Havel column: Carroll must go, perhaps today

Schottenheimer should go, too


By Chris Havel


PHILADELPHIA — Why is Ahmad Carroll on the roster? Why is Kurt Schottenheimer in charge of the defensive backs?


That's easy.


Carroll is there to play pass defense and Schottenheimer is there to teach the secondary how to do that individually and collectively. The difficult question is what the Green Bay Packers should do when both are abysmal and continual failures?


In the real world, where production is expected and performance is evaluated, Carroll and Schottenheimer would be unemployed today.


Not for long, perhaps, but long enough to shake up the Packers in the wake of an embarrassing 31-9 loss to the Eagles in front of a national cable TV audience on "Monday Night Football."


That isn't going to happen, of course, and that's too bad.


Carroll and Schottenheimer have been down this road before. They were together when the Packers selected Carroll with a wasted first-round draft pick in 2004. Carroll didn't progress, Schottenheimer wasn't retained, and life went on.


Now, reunited and under the direction of defensive coordinator Bob Sanders, Carroll and Schottenheimer double as Exhibits A and 1A in any argument why the Packers are going to struggle mightily all season.


The Packers showed improvement in several areas Monday night.


Packers coach Mike McCarthy's team went toe to toe with Eagles coach Andy Reid's playoff-caliber team at Lincoln Financial Field.


Brett Favre cleverly managed the offense and Vernand Morency supplied the semblance of a running attack. Kicker Dave Rayner gave the Packers a 9-7 lead.


Furthermore, the much-maligned defense forced two red-zone turnovers and played stingy run defense against an Eagles team minus Brian Westbrook.


All that good was undone in the second half by a variety of forces, the most obvious being Carroll's wretched performance and Schottenheimer's inability to coach his unit to play at a reasonable level, let alone a high level, for four quarters.


Does McCarthy take drastic measures? Probably not, but I suspect he's at least considering all the possibilities. The public humiliation the Packers endured on Monday night doesn't sit well with anybody, especially the head coach.


Carroll probably needs to go, and the Packers should begin developing backup Jarrett Bush ASAP.


"I think like anything, if you've seen it done right, you have something to hold on to," McCarthy said. "I've seen the secondary, I've seen every phase of our football team, do it correctly. The problem is we're not doing it correctly for 60 minutes. That's what I hold on to. If I didn't think they could do it correctly, there would be a change."


With all due respect, overwhelming evidence to the contrary suggests Carroll, in particular, never is going to become a reliable NFL defensive back.


"We'll evaluate everybody tomorrow," McCarthy said. "There'll be no decisions made tonight."


Today would be soon enough to cut ties with Carroll. I can't imagine the Packers unloading Schottenheimer, but demoting him and promoting Lionel Washington to defensive backs coach would be a popular move in the locker room. That could pay dividends on the field, and, frankly, it couldn't hurt.


The Packers' current approach isn't getting it done, especially in a secondary that has become the primary concern.

Chris Havel can be reached by voice mail at (920) 431-8586 or by email at chavel@greenbay.gannett.com

[FritzDontBlitz]

carroll is still on the team because squattenheimer keeps defending his abysmal play.

carroll singlehandedly turned a close game into a rout by giving up huge plays throughout the entire game.

fire kurt, bench or cut carroll and let tyrone culver play the 3rd db spot. he can't do any worse.

on the bright side. carroll is making terrell buckley look damn good.

[Tarlam!]

Interesting. Everybody except Woodson gets a mention is this article:

Posted October 3, 2006

Carroll lapses ignite Eagles' rally, blowout

Errors continue to dog CB

By Dylan B. Tomlinson
Gannett Wisconsin Newspapers


PHILADELPHIA — As Green Bay Packers cornerback Ahmad Carroll's NFL career continues, he is becoming a bigger and bigger liability.


The Packers were able to hang with Philadelphia until late in the third quarter of Monday night's game, but it was a pair of errors by Carroll that led to the Eagles' rally that quickly turned a tight game into a blowout.


In Carroll's three NFL seasons, he has earned a reputation as a player who breaks down in coverage and commits costly penalties.


That was the case Monday night, when Carroll's blown coverage led to one touchdown while a costly penalty led to another.


The Packers had played solid defense throughout the first half and through the first part of the third quarter before Philadelphia was able to put some distance between itself and the Packers.


The Eagles were clinging to a 10-9 lead late in the third quarter when Carroll blew his coverage on Philadelphia receiver Greg Lewis, who caught a pass from Donovan McNabb for a 45-yard touchdown.


"He made a play," Carroll said with a frustrated shrug. "It wasn't what we wanted to happen, but he made a play. It just happened."


The Packers' defenders said they were getting frustrated to see the breakdowns in the second half after playing the Eagles tight for the first half.


"They're mental errors and technique errors," Packers linebacker Nick Barnett said. "Guys weren't in the right places at the right time, and that hurt us."


Carroll's bad day was about to get worse.


On Philadelphia's next possession, Carroll was flagged for pass interference on receiver Reggie Brown. Philadelphia gained 14 yards on the penalty, and it didn't take the Eagles long to capitalize.


McNabb hit a wide-open Lewis for a 30-yard touchdown on the next play. After Lewis caught the ball, he blew past Packers safety Marquand Manuel, and by the time safety Nick Collins caught up to Lewis, he had crossed the goal line.


"We had two guys on one side and one on the other, and he was wide open," Collins said, shaking his head. "I still don't know what happened there, but there's no way he should have ever been that open."


While Carroll made two of the game's biggest mistakes, he wasn't the only member of the Packers' secondary to make a costly error.


Cornerback Al Harris was penalized twice, one for illegal contact and once for a facemask. Manuel also continued to struggle.


"If we get rid of one or two of those errors, this is a really close game," Barnett said. "If you look at the score, you'd think they just rolled over us, but this game was a lot tighter than the score would indicate."

[FritzDontBlitz]

i'll take harris' penalties to carroll's gaffes any day.

woodson forced the second fumble in the red zone by buckhalter and had some decent open field tackles. neither him nor harris let their man score, although both probably gave up huge chunks of yardage on a play or two.

[FritzDontBlitz]

"He made a play," Carroll said with a frustrated shrug. "It wasn't what we wanted to happen, but he made a play. It just happened."

"he made a play?" you gotta be kidding me????

THE GUY RAN RIGHT BY CARROLL. the replay clearly showed it.

[Rastak]

"He made a play," Carroll said with a frustrated shrug. "It wasn't what we wanted to happen, but he made a play. It just happened."

"he made a play?" you gotta be kidding me????

THE GUY RAN RIGHT BY CARROLL. the replay clearly showed it.

Letting a guy run by you ins't the coaches fault, period. Under Denny Green several years ago the Vikings had a HORRIBLE secondary coach named Richard Solomon. And when he left the bad players still sucked. Here's the way I look at it, a good coach can make an average player good. a bad coach doesn't make a good player bad and a bad player is a bad player regardless of who is coaching.


IMHO.

[RashanGary]

Hes playing because sadly, he is our 3rd best corner. Something we are unable to change until next year.

Yeah...I was surprised to see how badly he played. He's gotten better but it's just not enough.

To be fair, Harris and Woodson get penalties and give up plays too but Carroll just gets picked on.

I'm really hoping Blackmon can play. We need some young CB depth to start stepping up. It's top heavy on CB's in the next draft. I know TT takes the best guy and I agree with that policy so we just might end up with a stud CB with our high pick.

[RashanGary]

Letting a guy run by you ins't the coaches fault, period. Under Denny Green several years ago the Vikings had a HORRIBLE secondary coach named Richard Solomon. And when he left the bad players still sucked. Here's the way I look at it, a good coach can make an average player good. a bad coach doesn't make a good player bad and a bad player is a bad player regardless of who is coaching.


IMHO.

Thanks for being a voice of reason. You are not a fan of this team so you're capable of seeing this for what it is. Fans need somewhere to point and it's always a coach or QB. The fact is, the Packers don't have enough good players. Collins makes some plays but he gets burned to. He's got promise in that he shows signs of good things with not as many bad as Carroll. I really hope at least he and Blackmon pan out. Fact is, we still need another young CB and Woodson can slide to safety because I think this might be Harris' last year.

[Tarlam!]

What a crock. I am a fan, so I am incapable of rational observation? The entire secondary sucks hugely. Collectively. Everybody is playing like crap. They are all giving up big plays.

[Rastak]

What a crock. I am a fan, so I am incapable of rational observation? The entire secondary sucks hugely. Collectively. Everybody is playing like crap. They are all giving up big plays.


Did you watch the game?

[Tarlam!]

Trick question - you know I can't watch games.

I watched the highlight reels, listened to the game and read every piece so far available, including Havel's call to cut Carroll.

But, I also know what context to apply it all in. If it were only Carroll, I'd be the first to agree. I had the same opinion about it when M3 singled out Harris recently. My stance is exactly the same.

If it were just one player, I'd be all warm and glowy about calling for his head.

But it's simply not. The entire secondary is outta whack, so say all the reports; the communication is completely inadequate, so say all the reports; and what is ever more apparant, Carroll plays more like in his rookie year with each passing down he is on the field.

Please, Ras, put it all into context and then claim it's the players' fault.

This is Schittenheimer's fault. Squarely.

[vince]

Trick question - you know I can't watch games.

I watched the highlight reels, listened to the game and read every piece so far available, including Havel's call to cut Carroll.

But, I also know what context to apply it all in. If it were only Carroll, I'd be the first to agree. I had the same opinion about it when M3 singled out Harris recently. My stance is exactly the same.

If it were just one player, I'd be all warm and glowy about calling for his head.

But it's simply not. The entire secondary is outta whack, so say all the reports; the communication is completely inadequate, so say all the reports; and what is ever more apparant, Carroll plays more like in his rookie year with each passing down he is on the field.

Please, Ras, put it all into context and then claim it's the players' fault.

This is Schittenheimer's fault. Squarely.

Tarlam!, I'm no Schottzie fan, but Ahmad Carroll sucked the shit out of Greg Lewis' ass last night. He needs to be replaced now. The other players weren't perfect, but they were hall of famers next to Carroll's futility.

[wist43]

Carroll needs to go... I've defended him in the past, seeing the raw physical talent and hoping he could develop, but he's past redemption.

It's best to just cut ties with the guy at this point... pick up a street FA, and move forward from there.

Looking ahead, you have to figure there's no way he's on the team next year, so they should just go ahead and cut their losses now.

[Rastak]

Trick question - you know I can't watch games.

I watched the highlight reels, listened to the game and read every piece so far available, including Havel's call to cut Carroll.

But, I also know what context to apply it all in. If it were only Carroll, I'd be the first to agree. I had the same opinion about it when M3 singled out Harris recently. My stance is exactly the same.

If it were just one player, I'd be all warm and glowy about calling for his head.

But it's simply not. The entire secondary is outta whack, so say all the reports; the communication is completely inadequate, so say all the reports; and what is ever more apparant, Carroll plays more like in his rookie year with each passing down he is on the field.

Please, Ras, put it all into context and then claim it's the players' fault.

This is Schittenheimer's fault. Squarely.


We'll just have to agree to disagree. The reason I brought up your not being to able to see the games is because you seem so sure you're right but didn't even see the game. I'm not sure I could make bold statements myself without major qualifiers if I hadn't seen for myself what happened.


And I'll come back to it one more time, if your secondary coach sucks then perhaps Culver and Collins and all the very young players suffer, but the veterans have no excuse. And isn't it Sanders who is responsible for the game plan and defensive calls? I think you are making this way way more black and white than it is.

[run pMc]

I was only able to catch the 1st half. The funny thing is Carroll played pretty good the first half. At that point, it sounded like Harris was having the worst game.

Havel's article is a kneejerk reaction. Carroll isn't the answer as a long-term starter, but he's the best player we have right now to play the nickel.

I agree that a good coach can make an average player look good, or a bad player look average. Doesn't always happen that way, though. A bad player is a bad player. A bad coach can ruin everything. I think there's something very wrong in the secondary...a combination of chemistry, communication, and coaching. We'll probably see another overhaul in the secondary this offseason.

Is Carroll a bad player? I'd say he's average. He has very good speed & aggressiveness, but I don't know how coachable he is and he still seems to have a lot of rawness to his game. That should be gone by now, given his experience. That tells me he'll never reach his full potential.

Hey Havel, let TT decide what to do with him.

[vince]

I was only able to catch the 1st half. The funny thing is Carroll played pretty good the first half.

I'd like to hear from those who have the time in life to break down the game play-by-play, but I saw Carroll make one nice tackle on McNabb in the first half, and get turned in circles and beaten badly, albeit not for a touchdown, in the first half.

That does not constitute playing well in my book. Then, given the fact that you didn't see the second half, I'd recommend deferring judgement of his performance to those who did see the second half. To say that he didn't play well after halftime would be the understatement of the century.

I recall the words "Carroll," "roasted" and "toasted" being repeated numerous times by the announcers...

[mission]

run: the eagles didnt start really picking on carroll until the second half and got really really bad in a hurry. i just couldnt believe how bad our pass defense looked... everything was just bad.

i thought woodson was the only guy that played a "good" game back there... he definitely made some plays. collins comes in a close second with a couple breakups but still had mistakes of his own. beyond that, no one deserves a mention.

im fucking disgusted.

[cpk1994]

They should just release Carroll and replace him with a turnstile. You get the same results and save $1 Million at the same time.

[jack's smirking revenge]

They should just release Carroll and replace him with a turnstile. You get the same results and save $1 Million at the same time.

Great point!

tyler

[SkinBasket]

Funny how quick a lot of you are to defened Poppinga's crap-ass play with the "it's poor coaching" excuse, yet the same doesn't apply to Carroll. In fact, the coaching is now being DEFENDED.

This defense is an effen joke. Carroll played like crap last night, but looked no worse than Woodson against Det and Chi. I know we're only 4 weeks in, but for god's sake, it looks like no one on the D is "grasping" this scheme - if you can call it that. If we could play even average defense across the board, Carroll's weaknesses in coverage (and Poppinga's as well) and Manuel's molasses feet wouldn't be so easily exposed.

Whatever the hell Col. Sanders & Co. are doing, it ain't working for shit, so yes, it's easy to pick on our nickle back who can't get safety help on a deep route and it's easy to pick on our weakest LB who can't seem to cover even the slowest TEs and RBs. In a working D scheme, these players would be supported and assisted by the scheme. As it is, it looks like every man for himself out there, and that just isn't going to work.

In summary: We're screwed.

[Noodle]

No question, Carroll played poorly, but give the guy some credit for taking responsibility:

"It was me, not us," Carroll said after the game. "You can put the finger on me. Everything revolved around me. In the second half, they made four plays, three in the third quarter. They were on me. It was not what the team was doing, it was me."

Not exactly the words of a punk.

[SkinBasket]

No question, Carroll played poorly, but give the guy some credit for taking responsibility:

"It was me, not us," Carroll said after the game. "You can put the finger on me. Everything revolved around me. In the second half, they made four plays, three in the third quarter. They were on me. It was not what the team was doing, it was me."

Not exactly the words of a punk.

Has the D coaching staff ever taken any responsibility the way the players have this season? I know they aren't required to, but it sure would be nice if they didn't march these guys out in front of the media to hang themselves week in and week out while they sit and silently watch.

[jack's smirking revenge]

No question, Carroll played poorly, but give the guy some credit for taking responsibility:

"It was me, not us," Carroll said after the game. "You can put the finger on me. Everything revolved around me. In the second half, they made four plays, three in the third quarter. They were on me. It was not what the team was doing, it was me."

Not exactly the words of a punk.

At least he owned up to it. But when has he had a complete and standout game for a first round pick? He should be admitting that every week and shoveling down the humble pie and figuring out how to correct the problem.

Well, maybe that's asking too much--he IS the problem.

tyler

[pbmax]

Carroll came on to play with the base defense more after Woodson got banged up. Even after Woodson came back in, they started to target him. He made a fantastic play tackling McNabb but suffered in coverage.

He clearly has skills and is great in run support. But he needs extensive work on coverage. Should he be dumped? No. Should we keep drafting and bringing in street FAs to try and take his place? Yes.

And we need a different secondary coach. And that might mean Lionel Washington must go. Lionel has had Carroll longer than Schott and he still is behind.

[Badgepack]

Put Carroll at safety and demote Manual. At least Carroll has speed and can tackle.

[mission]

Put Carroll at safety and demote Manual. At least Carroll has speed and can tackle.

i actually like this idea. it seems carroll's biggest weakness is with his back to the ball... making a play in space and controlling his body seems pretty difficult for him.

i thought woodson played pretty well last night and definitely showed more effort than what he was doing previously. hopefully he can keep up these type of performances.

[Terry]

I think you are making this way way more black and white than it is.

You mean people do that? Perish the thought!

Absolutely! I don't remember who 'you' refers to, but as a general comment I think you're dead on. The problem is that people want solutions that can work very rapidly and 'gray' thinking doesn't offer anything like that, which leads to very uncomfortable frustration. The statement is even more true in the broader world and there are far deeper reasons people get uncomfortable, but the principle is the same.


No question, Carroll played poorly, but give the guy some credit for taking responsibility:

"It was me, not us," Carroll said after the game. "You can put the finger on me. Everything revolved around me. In the second half, they made four plays, three in the third quarter. They were on me. It was not what the team was doing, it was me."

Not exactly the words of a punk.

Good point. I saw that too. And Carroll might well not have been the culprit on one of those plays he blames himself for. He also made some good plays in the first half. Someone acknowledged his tackle of McNabb behind the line, but he also made some very good coverage plays.

Last night was not on his head alone.

[wist43]

I've been as patient with Carroll as anybody, despite the fact that I didn't like him as a 1st round pick... but, as I've said - I've had enough.

Time to cut bait with this guy...

[wist43]

I think you are making this way way more black and white than it is.

You mean people do that? Perish the thought!

Absolutely! I don't remember who 'you' refers to, but as a general comment I think you're dead on. The problem is that people want solutions that can work very rapidly and 'gray' thinking doesn't offer anything like that, which leads to very uncomfortable frustration. The statement is even more true in the broader world and there are far deeper reasons people get uncomfortable, but the principle is the same.


No question, Carroll played poorly, but give the guy some credit for taking responsibility:

"It was me, not us," Carroll said after the game. "You can put the finger on me. Everything revolved around me. In the second half, they made four plays, three in the third quarter. They were on me. It was not what the team was doing, it was me."

Not exactly the words of a punk.

Good point. I saw that too. And Carroll might well not have been the culprit on one of those plays he blames himself for. He also made some good plays in the first half. Someone acknowledged his tackle of McNabb behind the line, but he also made some very good coverage plays.

Last night was not on his head alone.

You simply can't have breakdowns in coverage like that... it's one thing to get beat physically, but Carroll is getting beat repeatedly on double moves, poor technique, loose coverage, et al.

Enough is enough...