Profootball talk chimes in on the Packers recent drafts

[green_bowl_packer]

Further proof this guy is a Vikings fan! No mention of trading up to draft a punter. It's common knowledge was a control freak with his assistants, why should it be any different in the front office.

http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm


POSTED 3:00 p.m. EDT; UPDATED 4:44 p.m. EDT, October 4, 2006

SHERMAN THE ONLY ONE TO BLAME FOR HORRENDOUS DRAFTS?

It's becoming fashionable in the land of cheese and Lord Favre apologists to blame the team's track record of poor drafts during the Mike Sherman era on the guy who served for a period of time as both head coach and general manager.

But, the last time we checked, Sherman wasn't the only front-office employee when guys like cornerback Ahmad Carroll were selected. Carroll, the team's first-round pick in the 2004 draft, was cut on Tuesday after being burned more thoroughly than a freckle-faced teenager who fell asleep in a tanning bed.

If anything, Sherman might have had too much talent in the building. From "personnel analyst to the general manager" John Schneider (is that anything like assistant to the traveling secretary?) to director of pro personnel Reggie McKenzie to director of college scouting John Dorsey to the late Mark Hatley, the Packers were perceived as a Pro Bowl personnel department durin Sherman's time as the poobah.

During his tenure as G.M., there were whispers that Sherman didn't rely sufficiently on his lieutenants. But based on the stuff we've gleaned during five years of following the NFL as closely as a hungry dog watching its master eat a bag of beef jerky, someone had to set the table for Sherman when he picked guys like Carroll.

The compilation of a team's draft board is a collaborative process, and there typically isn't much winging it that goes on while the pick are being made. Teams routinely labor for weeks over a ranking of all players, and a ranking of the players at each position.

It's highly unlikely, then, that Sherman caught a wild hair after the Rams took Steven Jackson with the 24th pick and decided out of the blue that Carroll was the right call at No. 25. We can only assume, then, that the brain trust in Green Bay previously had determined that, between Carroll and Chris Gamble (who'd be drafted by the Panthers a few spots later), Carroll is the better player. And as history has demonstrated, he isn't.

A similar argument can be made for every other failed Sherman pick.

And if the truth is that Sherman had a goofball approach to the draft, ignoring the painstaking research that had been done and opting instead to throw darts or flip coins, our guess is that one of the capable and talented men working in the front office would have said something about it to someone in a moment of exasperation.

But all we've ever heard is that Sherman didn't do a good job of delegating. Surely, he didn't built the board on his own. Surely, others had input in the mistakes that were made.

We mention all of this for one reason. Though to the casual cheesehead some solace can be had in the notion that Sherman is out of the building, the more discerning Packer backer realizes that there are still many common threads between the regime that presided over some bad drafts -- and the one that currently is in power.

[KYPack]

There is a lot of these reprises of Shermie's disaster draft.

Somewhere the Baby Tanky is having a shit fit.

One trend I've noticed is pretty low.

People are dumping on Hatley. This article didn't say much, but I've seen other ones that really put the Blame in Hatley's lap.

One article claimed that the goofy Sanders trade-up deal was all Hatley's idea.

That may even be true, how do we know?

But hey, THE GUY IS DEAD!

Give'm a break for God's sake.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

There is a lot of these reprises of Shermie's disaster draft.

Somewhere the Baby Tanky is having a shit fit.

One trend I've noticed is pretty low.

People are dumping on Hatley. This article didn't say much, but I've seen other ones that really put the Blame in Hatley's lap.

One article claimed that the goofy Sanders trade-up deal was all Hatley's idea.

That may even be true, how do we know?

But hey, THE GUY IS DEAD!

Give'm a break for God's sake.

Perhaps silenced by the Green Bay mafia for that abysmall pick. Sure he died of natural causes, right.

[ahaha]

There is a lot of these reprises of Shermie's disaster draft.

Somewhere the Baby Tanky is having a shit fit.

One trend I've noticed is pretty low.

People are dumping on Hatley. This article didn't say much, but I've seen other ones that really put the Blame in Hatley's lap.

One article claimed that the goofy Sanders trade-up deal was all Hatley's idea.

That may even be true, how do we know?

But hey, THE GUY IS DEAD!

Give'm a break for God's sake.

Why can't you critisize them after they're dead? I would think that would be the best time. He's not going to feel bad about it, he's dead.

When Hatley came to us, he was supposed to be the mastermind behind the Bears '01 play-off team. We found out later, that guys like Anthony Thomas and David Terrell were actually pretty crappy players.

[run pMc]

It's highly unlikely, then, that Sherman caught a wild hair after the Rams took Steven Jackson with the 24th pick and decided out of the blue that Carroll was the right call at No. 25.

Highly unlikely, perhaps, but from what I heard about how Sherman ran the war room & draft, I wouldn't be surprised. Trading up to select BJ Sander caused quite an uproar in the room.

This article is a opinion piece, just like my post.

[swede]

That guy loses instant cred because he is an absolutely awful writer.

[GoPack06]

The buck stops here. All GM's get input but the GM is the one who makes the pick.

You can tell how better TT is already. Sherman did have a nice pick taking Wells in the 7th. But you can't take a punter in the third. no way.

[prsnfoto]

The buck stops here. All GM's get input but the GM is the one who makes the pick.

You can tell how better TT is already. Sherman did have a nice pick taking Wells in the 7th. But you can't take a punter in the third. no way.

First off I hate Sherman! TT has only done well in this years draft, last has only Collins to show for it we don't know about Rodgers thats it, Terrance Murphy was unfortunate but hey Sherman drafted Walker and he is gone to.
Personally I don't think we upgraded much in the GM department and we have downgraded in the Coaching department as of now, I am not giving up on MM yet but he better not have sherman's character flaw of sticking by "his" guys cause anyone with a brain can see STINKHEIMER and Sanders are in way over their heads those heads need to roll sooner rather than later.

[wist43]

I've been calling for Dorsey and Schneider's heads for a few years...

Carroll was Dorsey's pick - reports were that he was the one who argued the hardest for Carroll. Dorsey was one of the dissenters in the Sanders debacle though.

Overall, the Packers have one of the worst draft records in the league over the past 5-6 years... We've gone thru 3 GM's since 2002, and each one of them just moved into the head job w/o making any adjustments in the scouting department.

The Packers are likely to continue to make huge mistakes on draft day as long as Dorsey and Schneider are contributing to organizing the draft board.

[packrulz]

Anytime a guy uses the term "Lord Favre" he loses all credibility and is probably a Bears fan. He tries too hard to be a comedian and doesn't back up his claim with any facts. Who in their right mind would want to defend Sherman's drafts? The guy is a moron.

[KYPack]

There is a lot of these reprises of Shermie's disaster draft.

Somewhere the Baby Tanky is having a shit fit.

One trend I've noticed is pretty low.

People are dumping on Hatley. This article didn't say much, but I've seen other ones that really put the Blame in Hatley's lap.

One article claimed that the goofy Sanders trade-up deal was all Hatley's idea.

That may even be true, how do we know?

But hey, THE GUY IS DEAD!

Give'm a break for God's sake.

Why can't you critisize them after they're dead? I would think that would be the best time. He's not going to feel bad about it, he's dead.

When Hatley came to us, he was supposed to be the mastermind behind the Bears '01 play-off team. We found out later, that guys like Anthony Thomas and David Terrell were actually pretty crappy players.

Because when a guys dead, he can't defend himself real well.

The other thing thing is, the charge may not be true. I can't imagine a vet personnel guy urging us to trade UP, burn a couple picks to get a punter in the 3rd round. You don't draft a punter in the 3rd round, & Hatley knew that.

I feel this is a case of somebody trying to lay the blame off on a guy who is dead.

That's some low shit.

[Guiness]

Can I blame my long dead great-grandfather for passing on his shitty genes that are making me lose my hair :?:

[ahaha]

There is a lot of these reprises of Shermie's disaster draft.

Somewhere the Baby Tanky is having a shit fit.

One trend I've noticed is pretty low.

People are dumping on Hatley. This article didn't say much, but I've seen other ones that really put the Blame in Hatley's lap.

One article claimed that the goofy Sanders trade-up deal was all Hatley's idea.

That may even be true, how do we know?

But hey, THE GUY IS DEAD!

Give'm a break for God's sake.

Why can't you critisize them after they're dead? I would think that would be the best time. He's not going to feel bad about it, he's dead.

When Hatley came to us, he was supposed to be the mastermind behind the Bears '01 play-off team. We found out later, that guys like Anthony Thomas and David Terrell were actually pretty crappy players.

Because when a guys dead, he can't defend himself real well.

The other thing thing is, the charge may not be true. I can't imagine a vet personnel guy urging us to trade UP, burn a couple picks to get a punter in the 3rd round. You don't draft a punter in the 3rd round, & Hatley knew that.

I feel this is a case of somebody trying to lay the blame off on a guy who is dead.

That's some low shit.

Hatley was with the Bears when they picked Todd Sauerbraun in the second round.
Hatley helped build those powerhouse Bears teams of the 90's.
Hatley came to the Packers in time to help Sherman with his outstanding drafts.
I don't think it's such a stretch to lay some of the blame on a guy with such a bad track record.
Is it low to critisize Nixon because he's dead?
When Dave Wandstat dies will he become a great NFL coach?

[pbmax]

There is a lot of these reprises of Shermie's disaster draft.

Somewhere the Baby Tanky is having a shit fit.

One trend I've noticed is pretty low.

People are dumping on Hatley. This article didn't say much, but I've seen other ones that really put the Blame in Hatley's lap.

One article claimed that the goofy Sanders trade-up deal was all Hatley's idea.

That may even be true, how do we know?

But hey, THE GUY IS DEAD!

Give'm a break for God's sake.

Here is the article that caused Sherman to stifle the Edith's of the personnel department.


Green Bay - The appearance of punter Mat McBriar this afternoon at Lambeau Field underscores all over again the sheer folly of Mike Sherman's decision to trade up and draft B.J. Sander in the third round.

While Sander walks the Packers sideline in a sweat suit, McBriar will be punting for the Dallas Cowboys one week after a performance against Pittsburgh that might have been better than these eyes have ever seen, in person or on tape.

McBriar, a 25-year-old Australian, averaged 5.03 seconds of hang time on punts that stayed in the air 5.09, 4.91, 5.16 and 4.95. His gross average was 50.3 yards; his net average was 45.

The Steelers' Antwaan Randle El was shaking his head almost in disbelief after two fair catches. You're just not supposed to be able to punt a ball that far and that high four times in a row.

One opposing special-teams coach and one scout both said McBriar has been punting very well all season, even though he ranks just 29th in gross average (40.2 yards) and 17th in net (36.6). He has had an inordinate number of attempts in "pooch" punt situations and both his touchback and inside-the-20 percentages are ranked among the top seven in the league.

Like most punters in the National Football League, McBriar had a strong college career but then had to taste some failure in the pros while learning the necessary adjustments. After starting for three seasons at Hawaii, McBriar signed with Denver in 2003 as an undrafted free agent before being dealt to Seattle in mid-August for a conditional pick.

The Seahawks cut him at the end of training camp and he was out of football until the Cowboys signed him to their practice squad Dec. 24. They re-signed him Jan. 5.

According to scouts, McBriar came out of Hawaii with the type of explosive leg strength that Sander didn't and doesn't have. His first punt at the Hula Bowl went almost 85 yards. Still, he was inconsistent in his "drops" - releasing the ball to his kicking foot - so he had to go the free-agent route.

Once McBriar got to Dallas, Steve Hoffman became his coach. Hoffman has been so successful at identifying and developing free-agent kickers and punters for the Cowboys since 1989 that the team's scouts are told not to even evaluate specialists when they go on the road.

A former pro punter himself, Hoffman is one of only a handful of special-teams coaches who can really coach specialists.

When coach Bill Parcells released punter Toby Gowin in March, the Cowboys signed two more free agents you've never heard of and put it in Hoffman's hands to come up with their next punter. As always, he did.

The hottest of the six new punters in the NFL who began the season with no regular-season experience is Derrick Frost of Cleveland. He net average of 39.7 yards ranks fifth in the league, and none of his 32 punts has gone for a touchback.

Frost, 24, came to Green Bay for a workout last year and performed extremely well, but for whatever reason wasn't signed. The Browns signed him as a second punter on Dec. 10, a month before the Packers signed Travis Dorsch as a second punter.

As is customary, Frost wasn't drafted out of college (Northern Iowa) in 2003 and first had to fail with multiple teams. In his case, it was Philadelphia and Baltimore.

The only two rookies punting in the league, San Francisco's sixth-round pick Andy Lee and Cincinnati's undrafted free agent Kyle Larson, are both struggling.

Yes, there are some rookie punters who make it with their first team, but that percentage dwindles each year. The balls are harder, the get-off times must be quicker, the rush is faster and more diverse, the returners are more dangerous and must be kicked away from more often, and the pressure is more intense.

Knowing all that, Sherman let a perfectly suitable punter get out of town in Josh Bidwell. Another $100,000 or so in signing bonus no doubt would have prevented Bidwell from leaving for Tampa Bay, where his 39.8-yard net average ranks fourth in the league.

Even though Bidwell had ranked 15th, 10th and tied for eighth in net the last three years for a cold-weather team, that wasn't good enough for Sherman.

Bidwell's eventual replacement turned out to be Bryan Barker, who definitely isn't good enough. Despite punting on warm days four times and in domes twice, Barker ranks 30th in gross average (39.5 yards) and net (33.9), and his average hang time is merely 4.13 seconds. The Packers will be lucky if they get through the season without punting being a major factor in a defeat.

Barker was brought in only when Sander went into the tank this summer. His 23-punt averages for the exhibition season (36.0-yard gross, 30.8 net, 4.10 hang time) would have spelled a pink slip anywhere else, but the Packers' investment in him ($583,250 signing bonus) and salary-cap ramifications landed him a seat on the 53-man roster.

What happened was all so predictable.

Sherman and special-teams coach John Bonamego painted Sander as a superior prospect when almost no one else in the league viewed him that way. I've talked to special-teams coaches or scouts from 15 other teams since the draft, and not one ranked him higher than the fourth round.

Yes, Sander had a good showing at the scouting combine and a good individual workout, which was attended by Bonamego and vice president of player personnel Mark Hatley, but he wasn't even good enough to beat out the forgettable Andy Groom as a sophomore and junior at Ohio State.

According to coaches, Sander had all kinds of technical problems. He drifted to his left and created a large zone for potential blocks; his grip was wrong; and his get-off time was semi-slow, partially because he used three steps.

From the first practice of the first minicamp to today, it's obvious Sander doesn't have a big leg. His best punt can't begin to approach that of someone like McBriar.

Yet Sherman went ahead and pulled the trigger on a trade in which he sent a fourth-round pick (102nd overall) and a fifth (153th) to Miami for a third (87th).

Sources close to the situation said Sherman and the late Hatley were the key figures behind the decision.

The Packers entered the draft with Sander on the board as a fourth-round pick. Shaun Herock, their Midwest area scout, gave him a seventh-round grade.

As the third round unfolded, Sherman and Hatley kept talking about the threat of the Cincinnati Bengals taking Sander (they owned the final pick of the third round) before the Packers could exercise the sixth pick of the fourth. Sander hails from Cincinnati, and there was talk that the Bengals had been calling him a lot.

"The Bengals had him late sixth round," a close friend of Bengals special-teams coach Darrin Simmons said a few days after the draft. "I also heard the word came out of Green Bay that the Bengals were going to draft a punter in the third, and that's why they took him (Sander). Which is completely false."

Special-teams consultant Frank Novak, a confidant of Sherman, also was very high on Sander and advocated trading up.

John Dorsey, the team's director of college scouting, spoke up against taking a punter in the third round when he discovered what was happening. Director of pro personnel Reggie McKenzie thought it was a mistake, as well. Some of the assistant coaches were griping, too.

With the Dolphins' third-round pick in hand and the deadline for the selection approaching, Sherman summoned Bonamego to the draft room and asked him whether Sander was going to be a "great" punter.

When Bonamego replied that he could be a "good" punter for the Packers, Sherman waved to an associate to phone in the pick.

On the Packers' board at the time with a second-round grade was UCLA linebacker Brandon Chillar. He went late in the fourth to St. Louis, where he has started three of the first six games and is playing well.

There were some in the organization who assumed Sherman was trading up in the third round to take Purdue defensive end Shaun Phillips. After going to San Diego on the second pick of the fourth round, he tied for the NFL lead in sacks in the exhibition season (four) and has two in the regular season.

Dorsch didn't last long in Green Bay because his erratic drops led to dramatic inconsistency. One reason why Hatley, Bonamego, Novak and others in the organization loved Sander so much was they actually felt his drops were perfect.

One of the overlooked problems in this mess is the Packers don't have someone with the expertise of a Steve Hoffman to make those types of evaluations and then truly nurture a punter.

Another is Sherman's damn-the-torpedoes, full-speed ahead attitude once he targets a player and becomes convinced in his own mind that he's right. That's the reason why the Packers became the first NFL team in the drafts from 1985-2004 to trade up for a punter, and why they have traded up in the draft more than any other team since Sherman replaced Ron Wolf.

For Sander to be worth the investment, he'd have to become a Pro Bowl-caliber punter. Given the fact that his confidence must be shot and even his best punts over time haven't been anywhere near as good as McBriar's, it's considerably less than 50-50 that he'll ever punt in a regular-season game for Green Bay.

Trading up into the third round for a punter of Sander's modest skill and potential is among the most damning indictments of Sherman's tenure. Simple common sense dictates that you wouldn't do that.

[Tarlam!]

I've been calling for Dorsey and Schneider's heads for a few years...

... We've gone thru 3 GM's since 2002, and each one of them just moved into the head job w/o making any adjustments in the scouting department.

I can confirm this claim. Wisty's second favourite bashing boy after Barnett has been Dorsey.

I know TT has the same staff, but my assumption is, he has them briefed completely differently. Let's admit, the first draft went a little south, because none of us expected A-Rod to be there. I am pretty convinved that was not part of the master plan and when it occured, there no longer was a master plan.

With Murph's injury, Whittiker being the wrong build and a few cuts, TT's 1st draft will not be considered better than a C- in years to come, unless A-Rod becomes a perennilal pro-bowler.

But with his second, he proved he is very capable of running a draft war room at fever pitch. The wheeling and dealing. Knowing where value players might still be had. Or, did any of us expect Hodge where we got him?

I think, Wist, TT has them working to capacity.

[red]

the scouts should get a nice chunk of the blame, but i've also heard that sherman ran things with an iron fist, and rarely ever listened to others input on things. for what i've heard and read, it was load sherman of the manor while he was there, everything was his way, and no one was allowed to question him, or oppose him