View Full Version : Cliff Christl, thoughts on the game
motife
10-23-2006, 05:01 PM
MONDAY, Oct. 23, 2006, 1:32 p.m.
Worth the wait
Sometimes it pays off to be patient with players. Sometimes they don't hit their stride until after four, five years in the league.
A case in point is tight end David Martin.
Martin teased the Packers with his potential for four years, but never stayed healthy and never really produced until last season. This year, he's making a solid contribution again. On his 13-yard touchdown pass against Miami, he showed good body control to make a shoestring catch. He also made an outstretched catch of a pass down the seam for 18 yards on the Packers’ first scoring drive.
He's much more of a down-field threat than former No. 1 draft pick Bubba Franks.
MONDAY, Oct. 23, 2006, 1:28 p.m.
Pickett continues his solid play
Defensive tackle Ryan Pickett has been the most consistent of the Packers’ off-season, free agent acquisitions. He had another good game Sunday.
On Miami’s first possession, Pickett played off a double-team block and assisted on the tackle as Ronnie Brown was held to no gain. In the second quarter, on the play before Nick Barnett’s interception, Pickett hustled from the backside, despite being initially knocked to the ground, and ran down Brown to hold him to a three-yard gain on a first-down play. Later in the second quarter, Pickett held the point against center Rex Hadnot, then went under him and dumped Brown for a mere one-yard gain.
In the second half, Pickett hustled down field to tackle wide receiver Wes Welker and hold him to a one-yard gain on a short pass. He also hit quarterback Joey Harrington just as he delivered the ball on a 13-yard pass to tight end Randy McMichael.
MONDAY, Oct. 23, 2006, 1:26 p.m.
Dendy an upgrade - so far
There were those around the league who questioned the Packers’ decision to cut Ahmad Carroll for the simple reason that the Packers didn’t appear to have anybody any better, or even as good, to take his place.
But cornerback Patrick Dendy, Carroll’s replacement, has had back-to-back solid games. Against Miami, Dendy ran stride for stride with wide receiver Marty Booker to break up a deep ball, broke up a slant pass to rookie wide receiver Derek Hagan and maintained tight coverage on another pass to Hagan, all in the game’s final 18 minutes.
MONDAY, Oct. 23, 2006, 1:25 p.m.
Ahman Green's play
The second offensive play of the game Sunday signaled that running back Ahman Green was healthy and ready to play. Green stiff-armed defensive end Jason Taylor in the backfield - after Taylor had beaten left tackle Daryn Colledge to the inside - and turned what should have been a loss into a four-yard gain.
Green’s 70-yard touchdown run was his longest since a 90-yard run against Dallas on Oct. 24, 2004. And Green’s 100-yard plus effort was only his second in his last 14 games. The other was in this year’s season opener against Chicago.
MONDAY, Oct. 23, 2006, 1:23 p.m.
Henderson's status
Fullback William Henderson was healthy and able to play Sunday. He was inactive, in part, because the Packers preferred to go with younger players on special teams. That and he has lost his starting job to Brandon Miree.
MONDAY, Oct. 23, 2006, 1:20 p.m.
Praise for Colledge
Coach Mike McCarthy said that tackle Daryn Colledge, despite his early struggles against Jason Taylor in pass protection, played well Sunday against Miami. McCarthy said the tackles, Colledge and Mark Tauscher, played better than the guards, Jason Spitz and Tony Moll.
MONDAY, Oct. 23, 2006, 1:17 p.m.
Shortage at receiver
The Packers were running more tests today on wide receiver Greg Jennings, but coach Mike McCarthy said at his Monday press conference that Jennings might miss Sunday's game against Arizona. Jennings injured his ankle Sunday against Miami.
McCarthy also said that wide receiver Robert Ferguson could be out for an extended period and was a candidate for the injured reserve list.
As a result, the Packers are considering adding a wide receiver to the roster.
FRIDAY, Oct. 20, 2006, 9:44 a.m.
Insight from a fan
Jeff Schleusner is a Packer Insider subscriber and a fan who gets it. Here's part of a recent email he sent:
"... I'm blown away how one or two stars can completely change a defense.
"If the Bears didn't have (Brian) Urlacher and (Tommie) Harris, they'd be an average defense and an average team. Harris almost singlehandedly won the game at Minnesota with his penetration and forced fumble in the fourth quarter.
"Looking across the Packers' roster, they don't have a competetive/athletic mismatch at any single position. The Bears have Urlacher and Harris, but also have a pair of DE's who are mismatches in about half the games (they) play. On the offensive side, Muhammad appears to be a physical mismatch against most of the CB's he'll play against this year.
"Javon Walker was the only guy who was a surefire mismatch for the Pack, and he's gone. ..."
Since then, Urlacher made the biggest play in the Bears' win over Arizona. That's why playmakers matter. Without Urlacher and Harris, the Bears are no better than 4-2, if that.
HarveyWallbangers
10-23-2006, 05:10 PM
Cliff is one of the better ones at gathering the correct stats. Gotta give him that. I actually agree with him on most things--except that it takes 5 years to rebuild. It better not in today's NFL or you'll be rebuilding again. Your young players will becoming FAs at that time. I really think they are in year one of the rebuilding process--just for the simple fact that I don't think they thought last year was a total rebuilding year. Injuries hurt their chances at competing, and I think Thompson saw the writing on the wall.
MJZiggy
10-23-2006, 05:18 PM
How odd that all his thoughts on the game follow exactly what M3 discussed in his press conference. Seemingly pretty much in order... :neutral:
As a result, the Packers are considering adding a wide receiver to the roster.
considering???????/
are you f'cking kidding me?
you damn well better bring in a wr
if jennings is out you'll have, driver, our #5 up till last week, and a guy that was on the practice squad until this week
even with jennings healthy, YOU HAVE TO BRING IN A DECENT WR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Freak Out
10-23-2006, 05:24 PM
MONDAY, Oct. 23, 2006, 1:23 p.m.
Henderson's status
Fullback William Henderson was healthy and able to play Sunday. He was inactive, in part, because the Packers preferred to go with younger players on special teams. That and he has lost his starting job to Brandon Miree.
End of an era.
MJZiggy
10-23-2006, 05:24 PM
They already did that. Shaun Bodiford.
They already did that. Shaun Bodiford.
not good enough
not even close
once again tt goes and makes it look like he has absolutely no desire to win anytime soon
when you have a gm that acts like that, then why the hell should the players even try?
MJZiggy
10-23-2006, 05:29 PM
Get me closer. Who should he have gotten?
motife
10-23-2006, 05:34 PM
David Boston is available.
David Boston is available.
him
why can't we bring in him for a look?
even some complete unknown guy thats been in the league for 3 years and has never had a catch
just someone other then an undrafted rookie
MJZiggy
10-23-2006, 05:53 PM
Isn't Boston one failed test from a yearlong suspension? Do you think it's wise to have that happen twice in one year?
Isn't Boston one failed test from a yearlong suspension? Do you think it's wise to have that happen twice in one year?
k-rob had already used up his last strike when we signed him
why not do it again
IF the guy can help in the time he's here, i don't plan on any guy that we sign at this point to be a long term solution to our problems. i see them with the team for the rest of the year, and thats it. even if he's just a rookie
is charles rodgers still out there? you can't tell me he wouldn't be a decent #3 or #4
Bretsky
10-23-2006, 06:02 PM
Rogers is still out there; apparent questions about his character though. But it doesn't hurt to bring him in and we did sign KRBO (who I like) with character issues.
B
Tyrone Bigguns
10-23-2006, 06:11 PM
Yeah, let's get rogers and boston. Apparently the rest of the NFL is sleeping on those two.
Lurker64
10-23-2006, 06:13 PM
Yeah, let's get rogers and boston. Apparently the rest of the NFL is sleeping on those two.
I suspect we, on this message board, have caught onto something that the General Managers of all 32 NFL teams have missed. Anyone have Ted Thompson's phone number?
Bretsky
10-23-2006, 06:20 PM
If I did I'd already have called wondering why he hibernated through much of free agency :mrgreen:
MJZiggy
10-23-2006, 06:28 PM
Rogers is still out there; apparent questions about his character though. But it doesn't hurt to bring him in and we did sign KRBO (who I like) with character issues.
B
And TT took a whole lotta heat for signing him...a lot of steam was raised right here on this board. Imagine Cliffy's reaction to that one!
what about cory bradford?
we're looking for a #3, 4 or #5
and he has proven to be in that area over his career
his name stuck out because i knew who he was. but you would have to think theres quite a few guys out there like him, that have played in the league for years and have put up so-so numbers
i'm not looking for steve smith or randy moss here, just a decent #3 or 4 thats knows what they're doing
heres a list, maybe someone will jump out at someone else
http://www.kffl.com/players.php/NFL/?position=4
freddie mitchell. again i'm not looking for a world beater, just someone thats been there and done that before
jerome pathon
Patler
10-23-2006, 06:47 PM
is charles rodgers still out there? you can't tell me he wouldn't be a decent #3 or #4
Sure I can. Charles Rodgers wouldn't be a decent #3 or #4! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Patler
10-23-2006, 06:50 PM
Why are so many of you so hung up on whether you recognize a player's name? As Gardner, Boerigter and others proved, that does not make them a decent player.
is charles rodgers still out there? you can't tell me he wouldn't be a decent #3 or #4
Sure I can. Charles Rodgers wouldn't be a decent #3 or #4! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
smart ass
todd pinkston
Rastak
10-23-2006, 06:55 PM
is charles rodgers still out there? you can't tell me he wouldn't be a decent #3 or #4
Sure I can. Charles Rodgers wouldn't be a decent #3 or #4! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
smart ass
todd pinkston
Yea but how many guys do you want that are sitting on a years suspension, I guess Robinson and Rogers could rotate each year who is suspened....
vince
10-23-2006, 06:56 PM
So, we pick up the guy who BEAT OUT Charles Rogers, and you are pissed off because you've heard of Charles Rogers, but not the guy that's better than him?
MJZiggy
10-23-2006, 06:56 PM
You mean THIS Pinkston?
During the 2006 pre-season, he was still hobbled from his Achilles injury, only catching one pass for four yards. When he was cut from the Eagles, a Philadelphia football writer offered this explanation: "Toughness has never been Pinky's forte. Two years ago, he sat out the second half of a Super Bowl that was played in 60-degree Jacksonville temps with cramps. That same season he was involved in three memorable plays in which he basically backed off passes from Donovan McNabb because he was afraid of a pending hit from the safety."[3]
Patler
10-23-2006, 06:58 PM
So, we pick up the guy who BEAT OUT Charles Rogers, and you are pissed off because you've heard of Charles Rogers, but not the guy that's better than him?
Good point!
You mean THIS Pinkston?
During the 2006 pre-season, he was still hobbled from his Achilles injury, only catching one pass for four yards. When he was cut from the Eagles, a Philadelphia football writer offered this explanation: "Toughness has never been Pinky's forte. Two years ago, he sat out the second half of a Super Bowl that was played in 60-degree Jacksonville temps with cramps. That same season he was involved in three memorable plays in which he basically backed off passes from Donovan McNabb because he was afraid of a pending hit from the safety."[3]
it doesn't have to be pinkston, someone like that, someone hows been in the league 5 or 6 years and has put up decent numbers in that time
once agin, for the billionth time, i'm not f'cking looking for for a pro bowler
cory bradford, charles rodgers, david boston, todd pinkston, david terrell, peter warrick, rod gardner
all guys that have been in the nfl for more then 2 months. all have caught td passes and have gotten around 500 yards or more in a few season, all have already adjusted to nfl speed, all understand an nfl playbook better the a street free agent rookie
there has to be someone out there a long those lines, that can be brought in at this point and do more then a guy that was barely on the lions roster before being cut
So, we pick up the guy who BEAT OUT Charles Rogers, and you are pissed off because you've heard of Charles Rogers, but not the guy that's better than him?
yeah, he really beat him out good
how many more days did he last?
and i'm pissed because we are willing to bring in this guy, but completely unwilling to even think about bringing in the other guy
HarveyWallbangers
10-23-2006, 07:15 PM
Pinkston is a stiff. Apparently, Charles Rogers has lost lots of speed the last couple of years--probably due to all of his injuries. It happens. Sure, I'd like a vet like Calico because I've heard of him, but I can neither praise or rip the moves made at this point. Not until I see them play. Francies stepped up when he had to last week. Hopefully, when they sign these young guys they turn out to be Samkon Gado and not Taco Wallace. It's a crapshoot.
MJZiggy
10-23-2006, 07:23 PM
[quote=MJZiggy]
it doesn't have to be pinkston, someone like that, someone hows been in the league 5 or 6 years and has put up decent numbers in that time
there has to be someone out there a long those lines, that can be brought in at this point and do more then a guy that was barely on the lions roster before being cut
Why? The only reason he was cut was the injury. None of the guys you listed have torn up the NFL with their wonderful production and this kid reputedly tore up the training camp. And as for Francies, he is a member of the Packers organization and as such knows the playbook and has gone through training camp on THIS team which makes him miles ahead of some old worn out vet that would have to learn the whole playbook before he can contribute. We don't have that kind of time. All we did was bring in some insurance and a KR/PR. I just don't get why you think they have to have 5 years in the NFL to sit on the bench and get clobbered on kick returns. Why?
vince
10-23-2006, 07:23 PM
Red and Ras,
I know I sometimes come on a little strong, but I don't mean any offense to you guys. I respect your knowledge and perspectives here.
And no, "TT" hasn't been 100% correct. My point is that I'm inclined to trust the judgement of those guys like Ted Thompson, Reggie McKenzie, John Dorsey and the entire scounting and personnel staff before a couple fans, regardless of how knowledgeable I know you are. These guys know what they're doing. I'm going to let them do their job and see the guy on the field before I attack their decision.
Patler
10-23-2006, 07:33 PM
cory bradford, charles rodgers, david boston, todd pinkston, david terrell, peter warrick, rod gardner
all guys that have been in the nfl for more then 2 months. all have caught td passes and have gotten around 500 yards or more in a few season, all have already adjusted to nfl speed, all understand an nfl playbook better the a street free agent rookie
I know you don't mean specifically just these guys, but your list has some players best left alone.
I think MJZ explained why Pinkston isn't highly regarded.
Cory Bradford, from what I hear, can't run anymore.
Boston hasn't played in years and apparently is a steroid freak.
Rod Gardner had a chance and gave nothing in TC. Ruvell Martin looked better than him day in and day out from all reports.
Charles Rodgers in 3 years at Detroit had a TOTAL of 36 receptions for 440 yards and was a continual attitude problem.
The one thing I think TT is trying to do is develop a certain attitude on the team. Guys who love playing and want to be football players. Yes, guys who are tough for their positions. That's why Hawkins is gone, and Pinkston "need not apply".
The story on Gardner this fall was that he couldn't get into the playbook. I suspect problems like that occur with a lot of talented players who are on the street. A less talented player who "gets it" might be able to contribute more than the highly athletic prima donna.
They raved about Ruvell Martin's hands and attitude in preseason. They might as well give him a chance. He has actually been in the league a year, but did not play, so he is not a complete neophyte to what is needed.
I posted a list a few days ago of all recent WR roster transactions. Most are "no-names" while the Charles Rodgers and David Bostons remain available. There must be a reason that GM after GM passes on these guys.
Joemailman
10-23-2006, 08:16 PM
At this point in the season, you're either gonna sign a has-been, or you're gonna sign a could-be. TT has chosen to go with the could-be. I don't know the first thing about this guy TT signed, but it's better than signing Charles Rodgers or David Boston. By the way, the could-be's did pretty good on Sunday.
Rastak
10-23-2006, 08:33 PM
Red and Ras,
I know I sometimes come on a little strong, but I don't mean any offense to you guys. I respect your knowledge and perspectives here.
And no, "TT" hasn't been 100% correct. My point is that I'm inclined to trust the judgement of those guys like Ted Thompson, Reggie McKenzie, John Dorsey and the entire scounting and personnel staff before a couple fans, regardless of how knowledgeable I know you are. These guys know what they're doing. I'm going to let them do their job and see the guy on the field before I attack their decision.
Yea, I hear ya Vince but if you have that much confidence and everyone on the board doesn't have enough knowledge to question moves this board isn't really needed is it? The Packers (and Vikes and every other team) make mistakes and sometimes us regular joes see it and are right.
Have the Packers made any moves in the last two years you've disagreed with?
vince
10-23-2006, 08:45 PM
Red and Ras,
I know I sometimes come on a little strong, but I don't mean any offense to you guys. I respect your knowledge and perspectives here.
And no, "TT" hasn't been 100% correct. My point is that I'm inclined to trust the judgement of those guys like Ted Thompson, Reggie McKenzie, John Dorsey and the entire scounting and personnel staff before a couple fans, regardless of how knowledgeable I know you are. These guys know what they're doing. I'm going to let them do their job and see the guy on the field before I attack their decision.
Yea, I hear ya Vince but if you have that much confidence and everyone on the board doesn't have enough knowledge to question moves this board isn't really needed is it? The Packers (and Vikes and every other team) make mistakes and sometimes us regular joes see it and are right.
Have the Packers made any moves in the last two years you've disagreed with?
Wahle was a mistake, IMO. That's the big one, and probably the only notable one in my opinion. He's as good as anyone, but it would have been a challenge getting a deal done, but in retrospect, he should still be a Packer.
The Walker situation was unfortunate, but I am wholeheartedly in support of the way that was handled. I originally thought we should have left him rot, but changed my tune after looking at it realistically. Unfortunately, sticking to your guns makes you feel good, but in the end, that doesn't serve the franchise to just let him walk for nothing...
Manuel is looking to be a step slow out there, but Underwood would have beat him out by now if he would have stayed healthy this year.
Every GM is going to make some mistakes in evaluating talent and/or encounter players that don't fit the culture for any number of reasons.
In my opinion, Thompson's approach is generally the right way to go about it, and he's proven to be a skilled talent evaluator. Over time, he'll prove that out again here.
FritzDontBlitz
10-23-2006, 10:12 PM
you guys keep discussing each available free agent as if he's being brought in as the go-to guy, but i'm pretty sure donald driver will be playing next week. maybe we should look at it like this:
is corey bradford or david boston good enough to play as green bay's SEVENTH or even EIGHTH receiver? because that's what we're essentially talking about. the guy doesn't need to have all the tools or complete grasp of the playbook at this point, a 5th wr would probably be looking at no more than 5 passes thrown to him on even a good day. is there a speedster out there capable of stretching the field as a decoy to open up the underneath routes? is there a decent wr out there who's best days are behind him but still has enough to be a good possession receiver? it doesn't have to be a wideout: i'm even open to the possibility of bringing in a running back that may not be a worldbeater in the backfield but has good receiving skills to line up in the slot and create more options in the passing game.
having typed all that, i just thought about leo bookman. from what it sounds like he's just as good (or bad) as everyone else out there, but he did have something like a 4.18 40 time. why not bring him in as a rabbit? couldn't hurt at this point...
MJZiggy
10-23-2006, 10:39 PM
What makes him better than the kid they brought in?
:cat:
billy_oliver880
10-24-2006, 02:08 AM
Rod Gardner is out of the question anyway...he was playing for the chiefs last time I looked. http://www.kcchiefs.com/player/rod_gardner/
BobDobbs
10-24-2006, 04:11 AM
I just checked and Gardner has 2 catches for 17 yards this year, he's been on the team less than a month though.
It seems to me like the core of this debate revolves around whether the teams interests are better served taking a veteran who probably will give you more help in the short term, or try to find a rookie that might develop into someone who plays on the team for some years. I understand why its driving people crazy that Thompson has gone for the rookie (many times undrafted) time and again.
Jarret Bush wasn't even part of the discussion as a defensive contributor, Tory Humphrey is the BJ Sander of this year (he could be on the practice squad no?). A good point was brought up that Francis and Martin know the offense better than anyone off the street right now. But what about this new guy? Surely, someone is available who Brett could be more confident with.
I think the rationale is that Jennings is out a week at most. So whoever we bring in is effectively our 5th wide receiver barring further injury. David Martin has been playing well(better than David Boston etc would) this means more double tight end sets than 3 recevier or certainly four receiver sets. I love the double tight end, because its much harder to guess what play will be run and how it will be blocked.
Considering all that why not bring in a kid who has college kickoff return experience, because obviously that position is open for the taking. So, since Andre Rison isn't available, that 5th receiver spot is probably more likely to deliver yards through returns rather than receptions.
And hey Matt Millen cut this guy so how bad could he be? :D [/quote]
Patler
10-24-2006, 05:08 AM
the guy doesn't need to have all the tools or complete grasp of the playbook at this point, a 5th wr would probably be looking at no more than 5 passes thrown to him on even a good day. is there a speedster out there capable of stretching the field as a decoy to open up the underneath routes? is there a decent wr out there who's best days are behind him but still has enough to be a good possession receiver? it doesn't have to be a wideout: i'm even open to the possibility of bringing in a running back that may not be a worldbeater in the backfield but has good receiving skills to line up in the slot and create more options in the passing game.
having typed all that, i just thought about leo bookman. from what it sounds like he's just as good (or bad) as everyone else out there, but he did have something like a 4.18 40 time. why not bring him in as a rabbit? couldn't hurt at this point...
When the original roster is set, the 5th wide receiver, 5th linebacker, 7th and 8th DB are almost always picked as much or more for their special teams skills as for for their talent on offense or defense. As several have pointed out, in replacing Robinson and Ferguson you are not replacing receptions. In 5 games, Ferguson had 5 for 31 yards. In four, Koran Robinson had 7 for 89 yards. Francies and Ruvell Martin, who know the offense already, can pick up that level of performance. Both Robinson and Ferguson contributed on special teams, however. THAT is what needs to be replaced.
It would be nice if they could find a real speed guy. Someone who might attract the attention of a safety when he is in the game, even if just to make the safety hesitate just a bit worrying about deep responsibility. The problem with Bookman, from what was written during camp, was that he absolutely couldn't catch. With all his speed, they dumped him two weeks into training camp, after the first preseason game. Apparently he showed absolutely nothing. A guy with that kind of speed would be interesting to have.
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